Annie is a young woman who seems to be making all of the right moves. She has an emergency fund, she’s saving for retirement, she’s living frugally, and she’s paying off her debt. But she’s beginning to find the lifestyle overwhelming. She wants to know when the payoff comes. (And what should she do in the meantime?)
I’m 28, I make $43k per year, and I’ve been putting 9% away in a 401(k) since age 22. Right now there’s roughly $30k in the retirement fund (yay), and (oof) $900 in my checking account. I have $350 in a newly-opened HSBC direct account, and I plan to add $300 to it each month after I rebuild my emergency fund. I have a $300 balance on my credit card, which I’m paying next week, and about $9000 left on my student loans (originally $21k). My car, a 10-year-old Honda Civic, is $1200 and five months away from being paid off.
The thing is, I can’t seem to get ahead. At 22, I decided to start paying down my student loans, and they’ll be paid off within three years. My 401(k), as I mentioned, has 30k. I usually have a $3000 emergency fund. FICO: 763. I live pretty frugally; after paying rent, car/insurance, utilities and student loans, I have roughly $700 each month to live on/save.
I look around and see people my age buying expensive condos, carrying expensive handbags, taking trips to Iceland and Mexico and Spain. I know that some of them have accounts at the Bank of Mom and Dad, and others are paying for everything on credit, but sometimes I wonder what I’m doing wrong. I went to college, I make… not a ton, but not peanuts, I try to live within my means, and yet I feel poorer the older I get. Yeah, I’ve got a great FICO score, but what good is that when I can’t afford to buy a home — or even merely move to New York, where there are more jobs in my field?
In short, I’ve been questioning my financial decisions lately. I have become quite depressed because I feel I am falling behind my peers. Should I be putting less in my retirement fund so I have more cash now? Adjust my student-loan payments (right now I pay $270 a month, but I could trim it to $150 a month [but, of course, pay more in interest in the long run])? Am I being naive — do most people have help from their parents? I guess I feel frustrated, disheartened and snookered because I made all the “right” financial decisions and although I’ll be totally debt-free in three years, I am getting tired of this eggs-for-dinner crap. It’s like wearing sunblock (which I also do religiously): All of this effort had better pay off, or I am going to seriously be one angry (and pale) woman.
Annie should remember not to confuse frugality with depriving herself. She should indulge herself from time-to-time. Other than that, she just seems to be experiencing low cash flow. She’s bringing in enough to meet her needs (and then some — she’s doing great at setting money aside), but not enough to meet her wants. She could improve her situation by finding additional sources of income. It also wouldn’t hurt to reduce her loan payments for a few months until her car is paid off. Even just $50 or $100 of extra cash each month could make a huge difference in her perspective.
I know that she’s struggling now, but as Dave Ramsey says: “If you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else.” If you are willing to make sacrifices today, you will reap the rewards in the future. (The Living Like No One Else forums are an excellent resource for people subscribing to this philosophy.)
One final point: I’ve found that it’s dangerous to compare my situation with that of my friends. Yes, some of them do have access to the Bank of Mom and Dad. It’s easy to get jealous when I see a friend buying a house with money from her parents, or another who doesn’t have to work because of money from a rich aunt. But these things don’t matter. They’re rarities. What’s important is your financial situation and how you handle it.
I’m impressed that Annie’s making all of these smart financial choices. She and I are in nearly identical financial situations, but she’s ten years younger than I am!
This article is about Ask the Readers, Psychology, Real-Life Wednesday, 4th April 2007 (by J.D. Roth)


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April 4th, 2007 at 9:19 am
I wonder if all of Annie’s friends are doing all those things? Or are some people travelling and other’s buying nice handbags and so on. I find its very easy to compare myself to the best bits of a whole bunch of people, but when I look at actual individuals, not so much.
What helps me, is having a wish list of things that I would like to buy, and then gradually buying them (I have a similar list of places I want to go to). Its like once its on the list, it feels more real.
I set an allowance for splashing out and I make sure that it gets used, this helps me to feel rich, as does giving more money away.
I’ve also tried to focus in on the things that I value. Amongst other things, I’ve started blogging, wich I love, and I’m reading more books. These things make me feel happy, and I don’t care about the money as much.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:21 am
I’m in a very similar position - I’m younger, and I’m saving less than Annie, but I make a hair more than her and I have to wonder what I’m doing wrong because I’m not driving a brand-new sporty car, wearing $80 shirts every day, etc.
There’s not one answer, of course. Some of it is Mom & Dad - I know more than one person my age who’s making less than me but spending much more freely because their parents pay for a car, or clothes, or rent. I’ve also seen a lot of people have parents paying for the big-ticket luxury items like those overseas trips.
And don’t get me started on debt - while Annie’s ‘wasting’ her money clawing away at her loans to minimize the interest she pays, a lot of her peers are accumulating credit-card debt. Those of us who never carry a balance accept a lower standard of living in order to keep things sustainable. I don’t know what Annie’s interest rates are on those loans, but if they’re low, my advice would be to stop trying to pay them off fast. In my case, my student loans are 4.75%. But a high-interest online savings account can net 5%! So just dropping money in there is actually a smarter idea, and it doubles as an emergency fund while I pay the minimum on that student loan.
Even if you pay a little more interest in the long run, remember that money is not the end - it’s only a means. The end is happiness. If a little more interest in the long run means you’re happier, I say it’s worth it.
Income is definitely a big part of it, though. I’m making a little more than Annie, and I’m just out of school working in IT; I know other people not much older than me making well over $50k. I even know some Annie’s age and younger making well over $80k. They’re not even necessarily being irresponsible, they’re just making more, and the only way I know of for Annie to fix that is to find a new field, or find a higher-paying job in her current one. Granted, I don’t know what that is, and there’s a wide disparity - there are plenty of fields where a $43k salary at 28 is doing very well, simply because it’s not a lucrative industry. Ask anyone who works for a nonprofit.
Annie’s also saving at an astoundingly high rate compared to most people our age; most of the people I know save nothing at all, never mind double-digit percentages of their income. That’s a huge part of it - she’s not doing anything ‘wrong,’ it’s just that she’s aiming longer-term than a lot of her peers. And I suspect that she won’t really see the payoff until she starts a family; kids are a huge financial drain and college is massively expensive. Plus, that’s around when retirement starts being a comprehensible problem instead of the abstract theoretical issue it is in your single years.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Forgive me if this is too personal, Annie, but your problem isn’t financial, it’s comparing yourself to your peers. You already recognize that you’re saving way more than they are, but you feel like you don’t have enough. Have you asked yourself how much is enough? If you took trips to Iceland and Spain, wouldn’t you then want to go to Costa Rica and Hungary next? Where does it end?
I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, other than not being happy with what you have (and believe me, I know how hard that is).
If you want something SPECIFIC, make a plan and do it. If you just want “more” you’re never going to get it.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:29 am
I also wonder how many of her friends are actually saving their money diligently, paying off debts and exercising financial responsibility. With the average American saving less and less each year, I think it is dangerous to follow the crowd.
Many of my friends live well beyond their means, leasing fancy cars, buying a condo or house with an ARM and simply spending like there is no tomorrow. When I ask them about what they are investing in for retirement I get blank stares and the most common response is, dude I’ll worry about that later.
My strong advice is to set and follow your own financial goals and make sure they suit you. Secondly please make sure that your savings are being put to work adequately. Of the few people I know my age saving responsibly few of them know the difference between saving and investing. Make sure you understand what type of investments you’re making and why. Analyse the mutual fund and the individual stocks in that fund. Learn about fundamental analysis (since that is what most 401(k) investors are doing). I often give this advice to a few of my “saver” friends. They tell me they can’t be bothered and that it’s too much work. I laugh and tell them - so saving all this money isn’t hard? Make sure your hard earned savings are being put to work effectively. Don’t be a sheep, don’t follow the herd - learn the markets and understand your investments.
Also don’t worry about what everyone is doing. Heck I wouldn’t have starting my own business if I listened to everyone else.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:32 am
According to Dave Ramsey, the problem with us 20 and 30-Somethings is that we are trying to achieve the standard of living right now that we see our parents having, only it took them 30-40 years to achieve. The wide availability of credit makes it easy to appear that we are achieving this, but it’s all just a facade. This makes it especially hard when you are trying to make wise financial decisions - you see your peers and it looks like they are “making it” but you have to remember that they are most likely up to their eyeballs in debt, strapped for cash, and will be seriously struggling in their retirement years.
Find some peers who are doing what you’re doing (they are out there) and use them for accountability and support. They will reaffirm your decisions, encourage you, and keep you motivated. I think Annie is absolutely on the right track!
April 4th, 2007 at 9:38 am
If Annie is going to compare herself to people, let her compare herself to me: I’m about to turn 34, I only just started contributing to a retirement fund, have about $1500 in savings (that is already earmarked for specific use, so it doesn’t really count as emergency savings), and between credit cards and student loans I’m about $17,000 in debt. I’m the sole earner while my husband attends school full time to finish his degree, and we both manage to live on about $700/month after bills. When I was Annie’s age, I had made so many bad choices and screwed up my finances so badly that I was forced to give up my apartment and move home with my mother. My finances have been growing increasingly stable ever since, but I’m nowhere near where I’d like to be, and when I look around at my peer group, it can get pretty depressing. From my perspective, Annie *is* ahead. Way ahead.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:39 am
My advice is read some books, specifically some of the favorites of mine and J.D.’s as well. Start with Your Money or Your Life and ponder the purpose and meaning of your spending and how to align your spending with your morals. Then read The Millionaire Next Door and think about the monetary arms race you are concerned about engaging in with the Joneses. I also suggest reading Ramit’s blog iwillteachyouotoberich.com for great ideas on how to save money yet spend on things that make you happy, something it seems is missing from your life.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I am at a very similar stage as Anne, with the exception that I bought a house when I was younger (about 6 years ago). I agree with the fellow commentators regarding being careful to whom one compares oneself. It’s easier for me, as most of my friends are older, and have a wide range of income and class status. However, it does seem that many of those who don’t handle money appropriately wind up in trouble. The “big payoff” is not being able to live a lavish lifestyle sometime later, it’s having a buffer so that the following things (and their like) do not occur:
1) Not enough money to pay for car insurance + accident results in the inability to be mobile, which results in a loss of job, which results in loss of apartment, which results in moving back in with parents.
2) Death in the family results in loss of house, as the only way to pay the (high interest rate) mortgage was to combine incomes. Family is currently renting from a compassionate friend.
3) No money to do maintenance on the house, which results in it being condemned. Family has to rent.
4) Numerous financial stupidities result in family having to move out of the city into a very small town, so they can afford an apartment. Commute for the primary bread winner goes from 10 minutes to 1.5 hours each way.
In contrast, one set of friends wound up having a house willed to them (complicated situation), they had good credit, so they took a line of credit on their own house to fix up this other house. After sale, they wound up with a positive gain of $40k. If they had managed their money the way the folks in the above examples did, they would have had to go through foreclosure on the house and taken the associated credit hit.
See, there is seldom anything glamorous in managing money well. It’s a choice. You can take a lot of little pleasures now, and take the likely huge financial hits later… or you can live moderately and avoid the hits.
The other key is to determine what is important in your life. For me, it’s books. Simply put, I do not skimp on books. I buy healthy food and cook at home, I have a modest DVD budget, etc etc. By defining what was important to me, I enjoy my life by reading and cooking, not shopping and clubbing. Therefore, the comparisons against others don’t take effect, because I no longer see their lives as particularly enjoyable.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:48 am
I’ve thought about this some more, and I have to agree with the previous commenters.
Young people have an expectation that they can immediately live the same lifestyle that their parents live, but their parents have been working at this for 20 or 30 years. It takes time. Maybe it’s always been like this — I don’t know. I remember when Kris and I were shopping for our first house. As we were touring one home, we told the owner that it was our first purchase, that we were looking for a “starter house”. She was taken aback. “I would never dreamed that this was a starter house,” she said.
Echoing previous commenters, I’d like to say that I, too, chose to live beyond my means as a young adult, and I paid the price for it. The fact is: you’ll probably have to struggle with money at some point. The question is: when would you rather do it? I know that I wish I’d chosen to struggle when I was younger. It would have taken less time, and it would have cost less. Instead, I spent money I did not have, and have spent the last decade digging myself out from under that mess.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:49 am
I have just turned 22 and I’m aiming to set myself up on a similar path to Annie’s.
I think it’s risky to say, “don’t compare yourself to others right NOW, compare yourself to them in 30-40 years!” The important thing is not to compare yourself but remind yourself of your goals.
I believe in working hard and saving what you earn because that’s what my parents practiced. Because they were so diligent, they were able to afford to raise 3 kids, send them all to college and give them a financial head start when they move out whilst all the time never letting them forget the importance of saving.
It’s important to have goals tied directly to your long-term wants whether it’s a great wedding, taking a year off to travel, a house in a nice neighborhood or the piece of mind to be able to afford to take time away from work to raise children. You just need these sorts of goals to put into perspective how much expensive clothing or a sports car is really worth.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:58 am
I just wanted to say that I can understand Annie’s concerns - I’m 23, and about to sit my final exams. I’ve lived frugally through 6 years of university and as a result I have zero student debt, only owe £100 or so on credit and have stashed away £4500 in savings.
I don’t know of anyone else in my age group and situation who can say this - however I do sometimes feel let down. I worry that in the next few years my peers and I will start out in similar careers, and while they have all this student debt and no savings they won’t actually be any worse off than I am.
I know I won’t be able to go out and get a better car/house/whatever than them on day 1, and that any benefits will come later in life, but some days I do wonder it’s even worth it, and that new HDTV in the store window starts to look very tempting.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Unlike some of the others, I find it perfectly acceptable to compare herself to her peers. Who are we to compare ourselves to if not our peers? I think the problem is not that she’s comparing, it’s that she’s not putting enough weight for the success she has. Saving 9% a year? Paying off 20k in student loans? Those are big accomplishments, and deserve much more weight than a trip to Iceland, Fiji, or wherever. She is doing quite well, and even comparing herself to peers, I think she can be able to recognize this but she is giving herself no credit. I think it’s too common for us to compare spending with our peers, but we really need to compare entire financial situations.
I can actually sympathize with her, because I too have felt that I just don’t feel like I am getting ahead. I live in a major city (living expenses are high), great job, maxing out 401k and IRA, paying off student loans, and when all is said and done, my monthly cash flow is very small even though I’m making more than her, and probably paying less in debt. It’s actually been more difficult than I thought with such a low monthly cash flow, but if that’s what it takes to hit my goal of 125k in investment/retirement/savings by the time 28, then I can recognize how much easier that makes things later on.
My advice to Annie would be to continue comparing yourself to your peers, but extract out to when your 40. Friends wont have parents paying for everything, they’ll be in debt, and trying to figure out how to start planning for retirement. You’ll be so far along already that you can not only secure the loans (high credit matters) but be able to transition into a house, and have the comfort of knowing that you are not in debt and simply on autopilot to retirement. At that point the vacations, the cars, whatever else you want won’t even be a dent in your financial situation, and your peers will be the ones baffled at how you put it all together.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Hi, this is Annie. Thanks for your suggestions and observations, and thanks to J.D. for posting this.
I agree, I need to stop comparing myself to other people. Easier said than done, of course. I’ve recently started volunteering, working with smart low-income children [I was once in their shoes!] and this also reminds me to be grateful for what I have.
Some financial info: I put my savings in a 5.05% HSBC online account. When I get $4,000 in there, I plan to put it in index funds. My student loans are locked in at 6% and now, my payments are mostly on principal.
I do know what would be enough for me: I want to be able to pay my bills, save $300 or more each month while still being able to eat out once a week, and to be able to buy a home within the next four or five years.
I’m also worried about my financial future because my parents have no retirement savings and no health insurance (”We’ll sell the house!” is their brilliant solution for everything) and, as an only child, guess who is going to be stuck taking care of their irresponsible choices.
Ben is right: I need to switch fields. I work in publishing, which is not known for being a lucrative field. I like the work and am good at it, but I just can’t afford to do it. It’s depressing because I do what I’ve always dreamed of doing, but I can’t afford to live in New York. I’ve been applying for better-paying jobs for a couple of months. So far, no nibbles, but I’m persistent!
One last thing: I agree that there’s a large sense of entitlement among 20-somethings, but not among all of us. I do, however, fear that the goals–buying a modest home, sending the rugrats to college–that my parents’ generation could work toward are increasingly out of my generation’s reach. When I see the 1-BR condos on my gang-graffitied street starting at $189k, this is why I keep thinking, “Gosh, what am I doing wrong?”
Thank you all for your insights and commentary!
April 4th, 2007 at 10:10 am
Ben is right: I need to switch fields. I work in publishing, which is not known for being a lucrative field. I like the work and am good at it, but I just can’t afford to do it. It’s depressing because I do what I’ve always dreamed of doing.
Use caution here. If you love the work, that’s a Very Important Thing. I’ve worked jobs I loved and jobs I hated. I’d much rather work for less at a job I loved than get rich at a job I hated.
Another possibility is to think if there are creative ways to use your experience in the publishing field to earn more money. As an example (possibly a poor one), I have a friend who has been an editor for a number of years. She’s begun to explore ways to turn this experience into, well, something a little different. She and I have even batted around the possibility of starting a small press together. (We’ve only discussed this as an idea, though, and never been serious about it.) I think she does some freelance work to bring in extra money on the side…
Yes, it’s good to have a lucrative career, but it’s better to have job satisfaction.
Just keep this in mind as you explore your options…
April 4th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Annie,
You are making all the right decisions. In 5 months, you’ll have that extra money.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:28 am
It’s a major challenge to balance the competing desires of where you want to live, how you want to live, and what you want to do for a living. For most of my life I worked in low-paying jobs by choice. My degree is in environmental science, and I spent my 20s and early 30s working for nonprofits and universities, then went into environmental journalism. No wonder I’m 48 years old and have yet to buy my first house! But I would do it all over again in a heartbeat.
Annie, if living in New York is more important to you than working in publishing, then switching careers might be a good choice. But if you love what you do, you could consider moving elsewhere so you can keep doing it; you can always move back later when you have more experience and can thus command a higher salary. Boston’s more affordable than New York and has plenty of publishers. Having lived near both places myself much of my life (grew up north of NYC, spent my 20s around Boston) I personally find Boston a far more interesting, stimulating, and liveable city.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:32 am
I know where Annie is at. I used to ask myself the same question till I found out that everyone was living a facade of prosperity.
I choose to wear blinders and stop looking at my peers, or else broaden my peer group to realize there are people the same age who are struggling worse than I am. Sure, I love a pretty new pair of shoes and glamour, etc. But I think a shift in aesthetic sensibilities will make a person realize that fabulousness is a lot of attitude more than money. I knew a lot of amazing hipsters with no money, and they were/are the epitome of stylish and cool. Having worked with professional costume designers, I’ve learned that looking good is just that, a look. It’s a sham. Pay attention to that man behind the curtain and you’ll see people loaded up with debt.
If it really does pain her to have so little cash left over from her paycheck, then maybe she should ease off the 401k contribution till she gets a higher paying job? 9% a year with a $30K retirement balance is great. I’m in my early thirties and I don’t have that much saved at all. I think she’s doing great and very ahead of other people.
I don’t think she’s doing anything wrong. As far as owning vs renting, take a really good look at what it means to own. It’s a big pain in the neck and sometimes it’s better to rent for the reduced headache of maintenance, insurance, taxes vs the freedom to pick up and leave. Just remind yourself that a mortgage is an albatross around the neck which is not easily removed. But a lease will expire! If money is freedom, then which life choice makes us free? The house or being debt-free?
I think she’s doing an amazing job, but she needs to cut herself some slack and gain new perspective on where she is compared to the giant pool of 28 year olds vs the people she sees readily around her. There are 50 year olds who make less than she does. Perspective is the key.
Good luck Annie! Man I wish I could be her! 28 with 30K saved for retirement!
April 4th, 2007 at 10:32 am
I’m going to agree with JD - job satisfaction is a huge deal, mostly because it’s raw happiness, which is (in my eyes) the whole point of the game. That’s not to say you shouldn’t consider a career change - maybe there’s something else you’d do that you’d enjoy only a little bit less but would make you much more satisfied with your financial situation. But if you get into something that pays really well and you don’t enjoy it, you may find yourself eager to trade that extra money back in for doing something you actually want to do.
As for living in NYC, don’t forget that salaries are also higher in expensive towns. You can’t afford to live there on your current salary, sure, but the same job there probably pays quite a bit more.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
Agreed. Annie don’t change a thing (especially if you like what you do). When those loans are paid off, you’ll have that extra cash. And you won’t be paying any insane interest to credit card lenders like your peers will forever and ever and ever.
I just started putting $100 into HSBC Direct each month for my savings/emergency and feel much better doing it. I did, however, cut my 401k contribution to the minimum needed for full employer matching. This gave me a couple hundred extra a month to pay down car and student loans. After that I’ll up the 401k or maybe shift it to savings/emergency fund (at least until emergency fund has 3 months worth on hand).
I feel much better doing things this way. No I don’t have a lot of toys. I have extended family that motorcycles and big TVs and Cadillac Escalades and have now declared bankruptcy (over $35K in credit card debt). No sense of personal responsibility and every sense of entitlement. They and people living like them will feel the pain when they realize they’ll never be able to retire and that they are never actually gaining wealth.
I still use the 25″ TV that my dad gave me 9 years ago as a college graduation present as my family’s primary television. I might need to involuntarily upgrade the 99 Hyundai Accent though …
April 4th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Annie,
You’re doing great, and I commend you for it.
Two things to consider:
(1) reduce your student-loan payment to free up cash. The fixed 6% is actually lower, since payments on interest are tax deductible. Student-loan debt not not [necessarily] bad debt (especially at 6% fixed). Use the $120/month to both bolster your emergency fund and help you from feeling deprived. As others have mentioned, allocate some of that extra cash into a “savings for [something, i.e., a well deserved vacation]“.
(2) Don’t be too quick to move the money in your HSBC savings into an index fund. Emergency funds need to be liquid for emergencies.
Good luck.
April 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Here, let me be specific Annie.
I’m 28. I make 80K, after getting a graduate degree, and have a very stable job as an economist in the government.
Along with JD and PFOddessey, I’ve been working on a budget sheet for GRS. I’ve got mine open now, so I can sneak in and let you know what I’m doing. Most of the folks on GRS that are young are doing the same thing.
Firstly, I have a goal. I want to be “effectively” retired at age 50. That means that money is no longer a concern no matter how long I live (about 40 years after that, I guess).
I save about 20% of my income in a given year. I have no debt, except for a mortgage I will take on shortly with my fiancee for the home addition. And I’ve been saving sine 23.
I estimate I will be, in real terms of today’s dollars, a millionaire, by the time i am 48 years old. That was my retirement goal.
Now let me put that into perspective with my friends. One is 37 years old, and is just about finished paying off debt, and is now just now starting to think about investing for retirement. He’ll have to work till he is 60 to get to comfortable point. However, he lives well within his means, and does a decent job budgeting, most of the time. He did not realize how bad “Christmas Debt” was until i walked him through it. He’s 10 years old than me but didn’t understand compound interest. But, he has his own place, is happy with his life, and does things that he enjoys that happen to not cost money. And I’d say most of his close friends live very frugally. I don’t live that differently from him, yet I make double what he does.
I have another friend, who is 36. His life is a mess. He can barely pay the rent on time, and he’s subletting a room in my apartment. He has debt issues, motivation issues, and job that just doesn’t pay enough. I have tried to help him, but I think he will be working until he gets close to life’s end. No planning at all.
Finally, I have a friend who is 30, and is a big-player for a local bank. He makes more than I, but you couldn’t tell that from how he lives, which means that you couldn’t tell the difference between him and my first friend.
I’m going to guess that doing the same thing s that a bigshot at a bank is doing is a very good comparison. There are alot of folks that I know who spend money foolishly, and in private, they live lives of quiet dispair. I know a financial planner who cashed in her 401k to go to Europe.
The rewards from good saving occur when you most need them. When you’re young, you dont need the money, so you spend it. When you’re older, its much more important.
Keep saving.
For the newly revamped spreadsheet I am making for GRS, email me:
stephenpopick AT gmail DOT com
April 4th, 2007 at 10:46 am
A couple of observations regarding Annie’s situation. It appears that Annie is single. As a purely financial decision, getting married is usually one of the best decisions you can make. I believe this is especially true for women. Annie mentions being able to afford things that her parents could. Again, I point out that they likely did these things as a married couple. Of course, this opens the whole can of non-financial issues…
Regarding travel: it appears many twenty-somethings (I am still one of them, barely) consider travel something they should be able to afford regularly. Plenty of my peers regularly hop on planes to Hawaii, the Caribbean, and Australia. I am reminded that my parents took their first plane trip when they were in their forties; to emigrate to a different country and continent. They didn’t step on another plane for another twenty years. This seems to be a matter of setting reasonable expectations. I still do not think it is reasonable for most people to expect to be able to hop on a plane once a year for a vacation and still purchase their idyllic half-acre.
“I have become quite depressed because I feel I am falling behind my peers.” It seems that Annie’s values are different than those of her peers. Would it be fair to say that there is naturally tension and conflict when we socialize with people who don’t believe in the same principles as we do? Obvious solutions include changing one’s friends or changing one’s values. Unfortunately, no easier answers come to mind.
If only everybody wore a big sign on their back that announced their total net worth, it would help our perspectives when we choose to compare ourselves with our peers.
squished out
April 4th, 2007 at 10:53 am
Annie,
I agree with J.D. You should stay in the job that you love, because would it be worth it to sit through a job you hate every day to make some extra money?
I don’t know what your living situation is, but maybe you should look into a publishing job in a different city. My dream was to work in publishing also, and now I am in an educational textbook publishing company in FL, where the cost of living is way less. I’m still having a rough time because of my credit card debt, but if that weren’t a factor, I’d be fine. I babysit and try to find freelance jobs. I’m 23, but I just tell myself that at least I appreciate hard work, and my life won’t always be like this.
Good luck!
Lindsay
April 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Excellent comments by all…I hope Annie is getting a bit of a charge out of the support people are showing…I am.
Annie: Stay the Course! This is a long journey and achieving your financial goals takes time and patience. You will find that even as you make more money, you also tend to have more obligations (family, house, etc) to go along with it.
I can not tell you how often my wife and I have asked ourselves “why does it seem we are so much poorer than our friends even though we are making good money?”. We don’t know their individual financial situations, but as you’ve no doubt read, it IS often a facade and their balance sheet does not jive with their spending habits.
For myself, it’s only been the past couple of years (I’m now 34) where I actually felt we were starting to make headway as we got into a mortgage where we pay more principal than interest each month and had finally saved enough money to feel like we were making some real gains.
I will tell you, however, that the struggle does not end there. Although I think we are doing many of the “right” things, we still want the bigger house, bigger yard, etc (just like everyone else). We tell ourselves we “need” it for our growing family…but I think a more honest assessment would be that we “want” it. I think the difference lies in finding the right balance between “wants” and “needs” to ensure that you meet your financial goals…but also “live a life”. Only you can determine what that balance is…but I definitely think you are on the right path.
Good luck!
April 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am
I have to agree with the general theme that Annie is doing GREAT overall.
I’m in a similar position, but I’m turning 29 next month. I’ve paid off the student loan, car, line of credit and got into a house with a smaller mortgage than most people I know. I’ve been saving for retirement and have a nice $20 K nest egg.
Yet I don’t feel the same was when I look at my peers. I see the nice cars, clothes and everything else as large chains holding them back. Meanwhile I’m living my low key life very happy partly because I know that I’m going to retire at least a decade or two before them.
Happiness is key until retirement time. Find what you love and make meaning in your life beyond your job. Then the rest of the bull just melts away.
CD
April 4th, 2007 at 11:01 am
I should mention that the new sheet not only has a mortgage calucator that includes, prepay, rollover, renting space, etc, but a retirement calculator as well
April 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Annie, in short, things will begin to pay off for you BIGTIME once you get COMPLETELY out of debt, including mortgage (house) debt. I mean, do you realize how much money you’ll have to invest and have fun w/ once you have NO PAYMENTS OF ANY KIND? So you can make things pay off for yourself as quickly as you can get out of debt. Buy a cheap house, and pay that sucker off. Point is, once you have no debt, you have made it — you will find everything you are looking for, everything you desire, everything you want, once you free yourself from ALL DEBT. Right now you feel “damned if you do save everything,” and “damned if you don’t save everything.” But there is a third, hidden, way to feel that will come in time … by choosing to work hard now and pay off debt, you can eventually have that third feeling of FREEDOM, pure FREEDOM.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am
I am finishing up “The 31 days to fix you Finances” over at thesimpledollar.com, and it woke me up! I now have a plan that allows me to “work for my dreams, not money”. That was the single biggest piece of advice on work and money that I wish I knew 7 years ago. Now I am fighting (my attitude, thoughts, desires, and concepts) to work for my dreams instead of the latest woozit.
If your dreams involve something nicer than you “need”, plan for that and make it happen. Work for your dreams … beware of what others have said: If you get what you want and it is not enough, than you did not want it with the right motives.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:14 am
When does it pay off? For me, it will pay off when I am happy with what I’ve got or when I retire early. Which ever comes first.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:17 am
From the “eggs for dinner crap” statement, I’d say Annie’s depriving herself a little more than she’s comfortable with. Maybe it’s time to free up a bit of cash flow. For example, drop the student loan payments down closer to the minimum. Student loan interest is tax deductible and if she consolidated, the interest rate should be less than 5%. Even if you’re determined not to spend that money on frivilous things, you can earn better returns elsewhere. Also, 9% contribution to the 401(k) seems a bit high if she’s struggling to live a comfortable life. Does her employer match her contributions? If so, how much do they match? It might be worth reducing the contributions for a while and figuring out how much she’s willing to sacrifice.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:18 am
You can find Trent’s 31 Days to Fix Your Finances here. It’s a great series, and is available as a downloadable eBook for just two bucks. I recommend it.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Just one exception that it is OK to go into credit card debt if it means you can get your hands on a Wii.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Annie -
I’m going to reiterate just about all the advice here. You are doing great! Keep going with the way you are approaching it because once you get that car loan paid off and then that student loan paid off, things WILL accelerate for you.
You are light years ahead of where I was at your age (see http://www.debtblitzkrieg.com: My synopsis: When I was 28 I had a $28K salary in a job I loved, $0 in savings, a fraction of what you have in a 401(k), was going to graduate school and accumulating student loans like there was no tomorrow, and had at that time probably around $10-15K in credit card debt (I don’t really recall but that sounds about right). I was living in a dark, ugly basement studio apartment and driving a paid-for but really clunky Subaru Justy and was trying to do maintenance and major repairs on it by myself (big disaster) because I couldn’t afford a mechanic. I’m not out of the woods yet but I’ve come a long way from that.
Anne — my big concern is that you do need to strike a little balance here. For example, rather than continue to pay your student loan at $270, if you can take it down to $150 DON’T — but DO take it down to $200 and use that $70 to ease up your lifestyle just a little. Build into your budget a plan for small periodic rewards — you don’t have to take expensive trips to have a little “getaway” — make a list of daytrips for the weekend or sights in your city, and plan outings for yourself (including a great meal!)
Try doing something like this once a month with your $70 and don’t feel guilty that you are doing it.
Here’s an example: For my upcoming birthday I’m taking 2 days off work. On the first day I’m going to a ritzy hotel for high tea (I’m a romantic geek, I love doing this). On the second day I’m going to my favorite spa in town for a facial and massage. I could EASILY go to a spa every 2-3 weeks like they pitch at you but it’s a budget buster — instead I go twice a year, around Christmas and my birthday, which are 6 months apart.
Small luxuries will help you keep on track.
Good luck and keep up the good work Anne!
db
April 4th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Annie, doing this reductio ad absurdum thing, consider Casey over at IAmFacingForeclosure.com. Perhaps a year or so ago, he was spending six months in Tahoe, going to Hawaii, showing off flashy electronics and so on. You could perhaps envy him, if all you could see were his vacations and the gadgets he carried around in his murse.
That was all illusory, as his spending habits were entirely financed by massive amounts of debt. Now, he’s reduced to being a dancing monkey on the Internet. Annie, DON’T BE A CASEY!!!
April 4th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Annie, don’t give up! I’m two years younger than you, make about $17,000 LESS than you, and work in publishing in New York. It is totally doable.
I put 9% into retirement (with a 6%) match, have a $6,000 emergency fund, share an apartment in Manhattan, and live frugally. I eat out more than I should, but I manage to save each month to visit home and I carry no debt (I may take out student loans this year for a master’s program, but I’ll get reimbursement to cover the loans as I go).
I don’t get to go on cruises or get a mani/pedi every week, but I love my life here. You’re right, this is the place to be to work in publishing, despite the low salaries. If you can be smart and careful with your money, however, you can absolutely live on what you make (and less) and live pretty well.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Hi Annie,
as others have said, you’re doing everything right - though that may not seem like as much fun as living the good life while racking up debt, as most people do these days.
However, thanks to the magic of compound interest, by starting saving so early you will be far ahead of your peers by the time you get to retirement. It’s a long time off, but it will come, so remember that in your comparisons with others. Remember the story of the ant and the grasshopper!
Also, your financial situation will improve in time. You’ll make more money later, at the same time that your debts will be paid off. You can do the math.
I (and others) expect there will be a significant correction downward in housing prices, so rest assured that you’ll be able to afford to own one day (not good news for your parents, however).
That said, you have to live a little now, or you will feel frustrated. Your mention of constant use of sunblock suggests you might be living overly carefully. Delaying present gratification for future rewards is wise, but it can be taken too far.
My advice: lower your student loan payment by $100 and live a little every month. Go out for dinner once in a while, and/or buy yourself a ‘frugal gourmet’ cookbook and cook some great food at home. Some rice and stir-fried veggies make for a quick, delicious dinner. Even living cheaply, no one needs to eat eggs all the time.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Individual priorities play a huge role in life. Perhaps Annie’s friends have different priorities then she does, or maybe they haven’t even thought about it and are just living in the moment. Either way, this is why I don’t think it make sense to compare your situation to others. Who knows, they might not be happy with themselves and envy Annie.
Priorities can lead to sensible and meaningful trade-offs. Maybe you’d rather work longer than harder, especially if you like what you do. It might be worth saving a little less over a longer period of time so you can go out to dinner once a week or take a trip every couple of years if that’s more important to you than retiring on X date. Everyone has different ideas about what their priorities are, and there is no right or wrong.
Just know how your decisions now could effect your future; look at both sides of the equation. To do this, identify your goals and figure out what you need to do to get there. Then you can see what your sacrifices are actually getting you, and decide what is worth doing and what isn’t.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Hi Annie,
I’m about 10 years older, and started off on that same path as you. The one thing I would do differently is actually *increase* your 401(k) contributions (max it out!!!). This might have the effect (check with an accountant) of slightly increasing your take home pay since your taxable income decreases. You should also check your withholdings. If you’re getting a return from the gov’t this year, increasing your deductions will increase your take-home pay as well.
Also, keep in mind that if your car is going to be paid off in a few months, there’s some extra cash that you’ll then have (though, IMO, you’re best off to continue banking most if not all of that possibly into a Roth IRA
Now I’m in my late 30s, have a house, a family, etc. with a huge chunk of cash in retirement accounts (I’ve been maxing out my 401(k) contributions for almost 14 years now!).
I’m still living paycheck-to-paycheck, but it’s by choice. The only debt I have is 1 car payment (at 0%
and my mortgage. The car payment will be go ne less than a year, the mortgage, sadly, not for another 28
Of course, now all my “spare cash” goes into college savings accounts. We’re living frugally, on a single income, but we’re doing okay. Hang in there, and remember, everytime you see a friend buying that expensive, unnecessary item, handbag, whatever, think of them in 40 or so years in a 1-room apt. while you’re on a cruise enjoying life!
April 4th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Annie,
I’m going to have to agree with Nathan. But I think everyone is saying essentially the same thing, just not worded as well.
Don’t just compare what you see them doing or spending on vs. what you do/spend your money on…That isn’t the full picture! Just know that you are setting yourself up amazingly for retirement (even early retirement!) and that compound interest will do wonders, allowing you to invest smaller percentages later, if you so choose, and have extra money to spend.
Finally, remember one key point. Your car is paid off in 5 months! That’s an extra $240/month that you’ll have floating around! Now I’m not suggesting you start spending all of that since eventually you’ll need a down payment for a new car…But take ~1/2 of it and make sure you do some things that you really enjoy.
April 4th, 2007 at 11:55 am
I think Andy’s (#30’s) advice is good. In my mind, there is absolutely no point being miserable now for something that you think will make you happy 40 years from now. You can still be responsible but free up some cash. You only get one shot at this life, at your twenties. If travel, or baseball tickets, or cooking classes will bring you some joy and sanity then try to make it happen.
A couple of other things … in a few years chances are you’ll be married or coupled up, and those savings/spending choices will be shared and the pressure reduced. In fact, this could be a factor in your friends’ ability to go away, own a condo, eat out a lot, etc.
Secondly, I made significantly less than that when I first moved to NYC. Remember, moving to New York means the car costs (all of ‘em!) come out of the equation. Free/cheap entertainment is really plentiful in the city. And if that’s where the money & connections are in your profession, it may be worth cutting back on the savings for a year or two and really make a priority of your chosen career.
Best of luck.
April 4th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Annie,
Your view will change when you get out of debt and the money you save goes in the bank account. I recently made that transition and it feels phenomenal to have that money accumulating in the bank rather than going to my creditors.
Relief will come. Trust in that.
April 4th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Annie is my hero!!! I wish I had, had enough sense to remain focused on a goal at her age. Here finances will dramatically change in 5 months with the removal of the car payment. Hold on Annie!!! Don’t decrease your payments. In 5,6 months will you be feeling the ease.
In a couple years your friends will still be financing vacations and you will be paying with cash! You will have less health issues, due to less stress. You will buy a home and most like pay it off early. Don’t lose site or be disheartened.
April 4th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Hi Annie, you say you’re depressed and that seems to be a trigger point to signify something may be wrong. I’ve reviewed your letter and nowhere did I find a list of your own personal goals.
Where are your passions?
Is your passion to travel around the world? I say, save up and go for it! Is your passion to switch careers and live in NYC? If so, go for it!
Annie, none of us will leave this world with our money intact. We will only have our memories and experiences to take with us. You need to find a delicate balance between doing what is right for your money and doing what is right for yourself.
If I were in your position, I would make a concrete list of all my goals and passions. Then I would strive to accomplish them.
For example, is your goal to own a beautiful condo? Open up a new account and start saving toward it.
Your peers will always be in a different place than you because we are all individuals with different circumstances.
Focus more on what makes your life vibrant and personally fulfilling.
This life isn’t a dress rehearsal, we each only have one shot. Make the best of it!
=^..^=
April 4th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
annie is doing fine.. most people her age have a zero net worth.. and hers is a little over 20k after her student loan and car balance.. i think her problem is finding a BALANCE in life.. which is the issue for most of us that age
perseverance is key.. hard work pays off in the long run.. that’s my motto.. sometimes i wonder why i work so hard too (just like her).. i get frustrated, confused, etc.. the results are SLOW.. but i realize that it will pay off greatly in the long run if i stick to the script.. and the best satisfaction is knowing i succeeded doing it MY WAY without anyones help
that car payment will be knocked out in no time.. she just needs to concentrate on getting rid of that student debt
i feel her pain.. i’m a year older and i find myself comparing my status to my friends sometimes too.. but you can’t do that.. it’s your life.. do what you NEED to do
it’s all about attitude.. if she wants to take a trip to mexico or spain.. have a separate savings account and save for it! if she wants the vuitton bag.. do the same.. yeah she doesn’t have the expensive condo.. but you don’t have that pricey mortgage and hoa fee to pay either! worry about that later.. you’re only young once.. live it up!
April 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Annie’s situation is exactly the situations analyzed by Tamara Draut in her book “Strapped: Why 20- And 30- Somethings Can’t Get Ahead”. She mostly cites the government’s inattention to this issue since the 1960’s. I just finished reading it last week, and instantly recognized Annie’s situation. As a soon-to-be college graduate, I am already dreading living a lifestyle of lower means, but have taken up reading lots of personal finance materials to prep myself and am taking a Financial Literacy course this quarter–it makes me feel much more empowered with all the information I now have, including this blog!
April 4th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I’m also in a very similar situation. At 22, I’m spending about $500/month on loans(that’s school and car), 10% of my $42k salary into 401k, $400/month split between investment accounts, $100/month into emergency savings account.
I feel the strain too Annie. I’m not poor; I can spend reasonably, but the biggest thing for me right now is owning a home. I’m in a rather low-rent situation right now, but I still hate throwing the money away. I’d love to own a home, but I’m afraid I won’t be able to afford it without starving myself.
Luckily, I’m not surrounded by big spenders like you. Most of my friends are as-or more-strapped than myself (though none are saving nearly as much as I am; they may just make less than me, or have more debt to pay off). It’s probably more difficult for you if you’re spending time with people that can (or choose to) afford that lifestyle. Keep your chin up. Your payday will come someday, whether it’s early retirement, the plunge into self-employment, or simply comfortable living without the burden of huge debt.
You may not be able to drop $200 on a whim for new shoes, but take pride in what you’re doing. You’re outsmarting probably 90% (if not more) of people in our age range. Like J.D. said, hold on to a bit more and treat yourself once in a while so you don’t get so down about it. For me, a new band shirt, or an occasional videogame can make me feel like I’m living it up.
April 4th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Annie, let me say that you are doing a great job with your money. You have a successful habit that most people our age (i’m 27) lack, living below your means!
With that said, seems to me to that you have your expenses/budget in order. How about looking for ways to INCREASE your income?
FT
http://www.milliondollarjourney.com
April 4th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Annie, you’re definitely on the right track!
My little brother just graduated from college last month, and I’ve been telling him to do all the things you’ve been doing.
In thirty years, you’ll both be WAY ahead of your peers.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I felt the same way Annie did until recently. I even considered picking up a bad habit like smoking so I could feel good about quitting and saving that extra money I had spent on smoking. Eventually it hit me that I really hate working. So what would make me happy? Not working!
So now that I have a goal of retiring early and not working for good, I don’t feel so bad anymore.
Another goal I made was to force 10% of my net pay on myself. This has helped me immensely because I don’t feel deprived at all. Its quite a bit of money for me and I feel very rich every two weeks because of it.
Friends…I have chosen to spend my time around friends similar to myself. I used to have some friends that either appeared really wealthy or came from a lot of money. It pained me to spend time with them because I was being subjected to their way of living. I slowly withdrew the time I spent with them and now spend time with people whose lifestyle is more in alignment with my own. It helps alot because I don’t feel bad anymore.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Money in the bank is an invisible benefit. It’s not as showy as the latest “it” bag, but boy are you glad it’s there when you need it! And good for you for being so disciplined. When I was your age I had a couple thousand in credit card debt and didn’t think anything of it. Then I met my husband who hates debt. Now, all we have is our mortgage for debt.
Budgets are all about choices. My husband often complains that he sees people eating out all the time and how do they do that when we make good money and only get to eat out once a month. Each time I remind him what we’re saving for. And then I ask him if he’d like to change anything to allow us to eat out more often. The answer is always no.
A few ideas:
1. give yourself a monthly “mad money” allowance in cash. This usually works best with entertainment money. Right now, my personal mad money is equal to 1 dinner out, 1 lunch out and 3 coffees plus a little extra. Once it’s gone, it’s gone, but I can spend it as I choose.
2. Make a “30 Day List.” Anytime you see something big that you want but isn’t in the budget, put it on the list and add the date. After 30 days, review the item and see if you still want it. If so, save-up and buy it. You’ll find the shine will wear off most of the things on your list before the 30 days is up.
3. Use your imagination when you go shopping. If you see something you like but don’t need, put it on hold or in your cart and imagine yourself using the item and really enjoying it. Then ask yourself if it’s worth breaking your promise to yourself to pay off your debts. Most likely it isn’t. Most likely your imagining has given you all the joy you would have gotten out of that thing, so put it back and walk away. It’s ok to want pretty and fun things and it’s ok to enjoy them when you have them. Just be aware of the tradeoffs.
Diet experts recommend really tasting your food so you enjoy it more and eat less. Well maybe try really enjoying what you have so not spending seems less painful. When you put on your favorite article of clothing, tell yourself it’s your favorite and why. When you give yourself a treat, savor it. When you mail a payment for your student loans give yourself a pat on the back and think about being one step closer to your goal. Make a point of looking at the 401k line on each paystub. Note how much you’ve saved all year. Look at your 401k statements and marvel at how much is in there.
4. Are you eating eggs because they’re cheap or because they’re fast and easy to cook? There are entire cookbooks devoted to egg cookery and other sources of cheap protein, like beans. Check out a cookbook from the library and start playing with your food. You can eat frugally and still eat well. And if you set-aside a day to cook for the week, you can just reheat the rest of the week. Maybe talk your friends into substituting a night out with an occasional night in and have a pot luck.
Try not to worry about what kind of financial mess you’ll get from your parents. There’s no way to predict the future so tell yourself you’ll figure it out when you get there. You’ve obviously learned from them and are working to make sure you’re set for your own retirement.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Annie looks like she is doing pretty well for herself, all things considered. The main problem seems to be a lack of income. $43k/year is never going to be enough to live lavishly. I can understand her lack of good opportunities in her current location and also the problems with moving to NYC.
Liking what you do can be important, yes. But doing a so-so job that makes enough money to do things that you like in your non-working hours can be just as good. All in all, I would say that I’m happier working at a so-so, well-paying job than I was working in a poorly-paying “dream job” and constantly stressing out about my finances.
Lastly, don’t let your college major or other training lock you into a career for life. Too many people fall into that trap. Simply put, your 20-year-old self might not have made the best decision for your 28-year-old self. But that doesn’t mean that you have to quit your job. I would look seriously into outside sources of income. Real estate? Teaching yoga classes? Sewing? Computer consulting? There are all kinds of side jobs out there that can supplement your income, and they may even turn out to be so lucrative that you decide to quit your day job.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Well, Annie, I say take a trip to Mexico!
Go somewhere more real, less touristy. Skip Acapulco and Cancun. A plane ticket will cost just under $400. You can stay in hostels for $10-15 a night. A week in Latin America will do you good. You will look around and see many people who are truly happy. You can see it in their smiles. Do these people have 401k’s or kick ass FICO scores? I doubt it.
What you experiencing is the hole in the center of much American life. Some of us have to be more entrenched in the rat race than others, but make a choice, enjoy life. You make a good salary and you’re single! Be Happy Now, open your perspective and see some of the other world while you have a chance…
April 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
She is not doing any thing wrong. She is doig everything right - except judging herself by comparison to other people.
She should take some time and make a list of her financial goals and prioritize them. If she wants to buy a home then living frugally, as she is doing, while she saves for a down payment is a good idea. Some of her friends who bought homes recently probably lost a lot of money since prices are down, and will have be struggling to make morgage payments as the adjustable rates are ratched up after the first few years. That’s why her friends are bragging about their vacations and not their real-estate acumen, and that’s why it’s bad to compare yourself to others. People don’t brag about their mistakes so you compare everything you know about your life to the good front they put on their life.
She shouldn’t base her decisions on what her friends are doing. If she want’s to compare herself to others she must include those who are less well off too. There are many many more less well off than she is.
If she gets laid off during a recession and has to wait months before she can get a job she will see that she is doing the right thing right now.
If she wants to live and work in new york then she should start looking for a job there. The jobs pay more there because living expenses are higher but she should expect to live in the suburbs and commute like many many other new yorkers.
If she feels like she can’t get ahead then it makes less sense to spend like her friends. She needs to keep track of her net worth. Then she will see that as she pays off he debt her net worth is increasing just as if she were putting that money in the bank.
If she can get a return on investments higher than the interest rate she pays on her student loans, then she would be better off investing rather than paying them off ahead of time. That assumes she knows how to get a higher return which probably means she has a long view, and that she will not spend her investments on a vacation.
April 4th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Annie, spend more money! Buy a fancier car! Use up more gas! Get a big home loan! Run up the credit cards! Spend! Spend! Spend! Now my advice is straight from my heart because overconsumption benefits me directly. Since I own index funds that cover the entire stock market, I will benefit on both ends from companies lending you money and the companies taking your money.
Ok, this was a bit tongue in cheek but this is my perception now. Somebody complains about high gas prices? I rub my hands because I own oil companies and a commodity index ETF. Somebody complains about credit card or bank fees? I rub my hands because I own a wide set of financial corporations. Somebody shows off a new car/TV/computer? I rub my hands because I own all sorts of manufacturing and consumer goods companies. Everytime I see somebody living beyond their means, it’s to my benefit and my goal is not to transfer my hard-earned cash to some other share holder.
April 4th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Student loan debt, along with a mortage, are the two kinds of debt I think are fine to pay off at the rate at which you financed them. The interest is low and in both cases the loan was made to make an investment. I say pay the minimum on your student loan and use that exra bit to treat yourself from time to time.
If you eventually find yourself with more cash than you now what to do with (except to waste it frivolously), that’s when you make extra payments to those loans. Even then it’s technically better to invest that cash in an index fund, or something similar, but I definitely get the desire to be debt free.
April 4th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
listen up annie, i’m going to give it to ya quick.
if you’re not happy then what the hell are you doing? save the amount that makes you feel secure. blow the rest on drugs and booze and whatever else makes you happy.
one day you’re going to close your eyes and wake up and be 75 years old. spend it while ya got it. save what you need. enjoy it. why the hell else are you even working?
April 4th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Annie - from someone older and hopefully wiser,
When I was 28, I had nothing but a husband in graduate school and a job that paid…(well not very darn much) so you are doing great. But all dieters need a treat once in awhile. Don’t eat a whole gallon of ice cream, just buy a pint of your favorite Ben and Jerry’s and enjoy a nice luxurious bowl - metaphorically, of course.
Then sit down and figure out how much you think you will need to retire, buy a house, or move to New York and make a plan to get there.
Jane Bryant Quinn (in “Making the Most of Your Money”)says to start your financial plan with a wish list because “The whole reason to have a financial plan is to focus yourself on what matters most and work out a strategy for getting it.”
Saving just to save is no fun. Saving to get something you want - a house, a family, a different job, an early retirement, security, a trip to Barbados, whatever … is what it is all about.
April 4th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
I’m in almost the exact same boat as Annie (except I have more debt)! I love the “listen up annie, i’m going to give it to ya quick” comment, and it’s a tempting route to take (”save the amount that makes you feel secure. blow the rest on drugs and booze”). And I’ve been there. And it’s great! But living in debt sucks perpetually, so I say keep it up, Annie. Get out of the hole, start building some capital, and by the time your 35, you’ll be living large. Remember, we’re living longer, and the 30’s are the new 20’s. Go into them strong.
April 4th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Annie, you need to make sure that you are in the right environment to earn a higher salary. In your email, you mentioned that you are 28 (still pretty young) and you know that there are potentially better jobs (I’m assuming this means higher salary and more openings in your field of work) in New York. You should try to apply for jobs there and be prepared to move there if you get a job. You are still young, and you need to grow your income on top of saving to be able to have a good life down the line. You could be saving 50% of your 42,000 a year salary, which is the same as 21% of a person that earns $100,000/yr.
Yes, you need to save, but sometimes you have to take calculated risk in life. You have to be confident that you are as good as the other person earning $60,000 in NY doing the same thing as you are right now.
Your saving rate is very good btw, but you have got to save what you can, and not let your health suffer because of this. Just remember that you need to healthy to enjoy your wealth down the road.
My Own Millions Blog
April 4th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
I had this same question. Then I realized it has to do with family. It cost me $100k to put myself through my undergraduate and graduate degrees (including living expenses). I wasn’t able to live at home, as I was from a small town, and my parents weren’t in a position to help me with tuition or expenses. When I graduated, I still had to live on my own. I had to buy my own car and supply pretty much my own downpayment. The people I know who are out spending lots of money had their university paid for (putting them $50k ahead of me, just for tuition and books), often received their own cars (another $10k-$20k), got downpayments, and lived at home until they were in their late 20s (saving at least $120k in rent, expenses, food, etc). If they saved even half of that, they’d have $90k in the bank, plus whatever they got for a downpayment. And that’s before they even start to set aside money for retirement, emergency plans. That’s just 50% of the difference between what I had to spend and they got for free.
Now imagine they marry someone in a similar situation. And say that person also saved 50% of those costs. Now they have $180k, plus whatever downpayments their parents supplied.
Even if they saved 25%, not 50%, they’d have close to $100k between them AND they’d still be in a position to have emergency funds, retirement savings and the like.
Then consider that some of them have elderly grandparents who might send $10k or $50k inheritances their way. They can thus afford to live a little more on the edge. Plus, maybe their parents urge them to take out big mortgages, since Mom & Dad can always cover a few months of payments.
Oh, and the people I know in these circumstances? Their parents tend to provide FREE childcare during the day, freeing their children from another $12,000 to $25,000 a year in daycare costs (with two kids who are two years apart, this would save $125k over the 7 years till the youngest is in kindergarten). And many of them also provide dinner at night, saving time and money.
At least, that’s the way it is in Vancouver, Canada. Kind of a rip off if you’re from a poorer family outside the city!
April 4th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
I, like many others commenting on this, am in a similar situation. I 23, paying down student loans, putting 6% in my 401k and increasing my savings. But, at the same time I feel the same pressures that everyone else has expressed in the comments. One comment did catch my eye though when Mindy said “Find some peers who are doing what you’re doing (they are out there) and use them for accountability and support.”
Does anyone know of a good resource to find and network with these types of individuals? If not, should we start something?
April 4th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
First, Annie is doing pretty well, for being somewhat in debt. With $700 extra per month, I’d say pay off the car and student loan in a year and be debt free. Then save a good down payment and buy a house with a 15 year fixed rate mortgage.
Like JD, I would quote Dave Ramsey, since I’m a Ramsey fan myself. Most of the people you see buying brand new (ie, paying retail), buying big (cars and houses) are doing really stupid financial planning. Sure, there’s the people that get help from parents (which is often loans instead of gifts), inheritence, etc. But as JD said, that is in fact rare.
See, normal in USA is BROKE. Normal people driving new cars are leasing them. Normal people buying big expensive houses are doing 80/20 mortgage loans, where the 20% is a financed down payment. Normal people buy clothing, furniture and other consumer goods brand new at MSRP prices. Or they might get something on sale. But they put it all on credit cards (including the gas they put in the car to get to the mall). This isn’t every case, and it might not be Annie’s friends. However, this is the normal, average behaviour patterns for Americans.
What does this all amount to? People who are just flat out broke. They’re up to their eyeballs in debt. They have a behaviour pattern that only spells disaster. Most people finally wake up in their 40’s or even 50’s and say “what the hell happened?! I was having fun now I’m broke, I need to fix this.” Then they spend the rest of their working years before retirement trying to fix the mess they spent 10-20 years creating.
Annie, your financial plan is spot on, just keep at it with intensity. Pay off those last couple debts agressively, and if you want to buy a house, save up as I said above. Sure, some of your friends might look cooler in their cars and fancy houses, and they might make fun of your frugal lifestyle.
However, to quote Dave Ramsey, “If broke people are making fun of your financial plan, you’re on the right track.”
April 4th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Annie,
There’s not much more that I can add to the good advice here. You might consider looking around at other jobs of interest, but if you like the work you do, your peace of mind and intellectual/creative enjoyment will be worth the extra salary you give up for not being in another field.
You really are way ahead of the game in terms of saving and handling money in general. If you haven’t already done so, you may want to review more closely how you spend money. Do you have some expenses that seem frugal but really aren’t? For example, perhaps you spend a lot on cable per month; is it worth it?
But perhaps you really have surveyed all of your options and find yourself with very little money to spend on your wants. In this case, you could make some compromises, for example, with regard to travel. There are many travel/volunteer opportunities that will take you to Mexico, France, and other places. You could also teach English in some countries for a couple of weeks, thus enabling yourself to work and travel at the same time.
But in any case, it sounds like you’re on track. Your 20s may have been lean, but your 30s will afford you more opportunities, thanks to your frugality and foresight.
April 4th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
@@Ross and others
I moved from Atlanta, GA to Washington, DC. Quite the difference in cost. Here’s a top10 list of things I did, when I came to a new city and only knew 1 person!
1) I joined a social group. There’s one that is free, they have stuff going on in every major city in the US. You can find them at http://www.meetin.org. It was a great way to meet new folks, many of the folks I met are now great friends (I even met my fiancee there), and the variety of events and activities is as unique as the people, so you can do expensive nights or cheap hikes.
2) Join a local sports league, or your work sports team. Its like 20 bucks for a quarter, and social interaction with folks, meet more contacts, etc…plus exercise.
3) In that vein, outdoor clubs are cheap. Hiking/Camping/Biking etc…cheap, cheap cheap. Nothing like going camping with friends and eating smores.
4) Other hobbies that are cheap include salsa or swing dancing.
5) Live small, but comfortable.
6) Pick your location appropriately. I paid a bit more in rent to live closer in, but living there allowed me to ditch my car, take the subway, and walk to things (or bike)
7) Host potluck nights, movie nights, board game nights, cause theyre cheap too
9) As a young person, dont go crazy dating…its expensive enough to date one person. keep the dates low cost, but classy
10) The Salvation Army DOES have good clothes for cheap.
April 4th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
The only changes i would make is to put LESS in the 401-k. Put in just the amount a company matches, and nothing more until you get a few raises. Usually a company will match up to 6%. That would mean a difference of 3870 - 2580 = $1290 per year. Not all of this would be increased income, as 401k is pre-tax, but you’ll get most of it.
$2580 per year will still get you to $1mm by age 65, and you can increase as you get raises.
I would do this because a 401k money is difficult to use before retirement, whereas a Roth IRA or just a taxable investment account would be more useful when saving to buy a house or need money for fun or medical care.
Secondly, don’t change your student loan paydown. You don’t have enough debt for the interest to help you (std deduction is higher), which is good, so paying it off would help you most. You may be able to consolidate or refinance down to 5.5%. that would save you a bit.
Use the extra money not put in the 401k to pay down debt, or to start a fund for a housing purchase. It can be a Roth IRA or just a Vanguard Mutual Fund. The regular mutual fund might be best if you can get to $3000 for the start up… you can pull all the money (paying taxes on it of course) without the penalties of a Roth IRA, and it too will rise at 10% per year. With a Roth as your home purchasing fund, you can only pull the money you put in without a penalty. This would only be around $9k-12k in 3 to 4 years. In 4years at 10% gain per year, that would give you an extra $2k for a home purchase, or approximately $14k.
You are doing fine as it is though. No need to make any quick decisions. Good Luck.
April 4th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
My situation is somewhat similar to Annie. I don’t have nearly as much saved and I make quite a bit less, but I also have no debt whatsoever. I’m 29 and I try to approach my personal finances in the smartest possible way for my situation, yet I often wonder if I should relax a bit and live a little more.
I think that a lot of people my age will get turned off by the long term approach that is espoused by so many when talking about personal finance. Almost every comment here argues that ‘it will pay off in the end’ in a ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ sort of way. Well, the problem is that now is most likely the prime of my life, not when I’m 60. I’d rather do more and experience more now than when I don’t have the energy or willingness left to do it. The idea of having being a having a ton of money in the bank and sitting on the beach at that age isn’t really that appealing to me. I’m more interested in a life full of rich experiences, enjoyment and also financial security throughout than one in which the rewards are waiting for me at the end of a long hard road.
I’m not advocating reckless spending, irresponsibility, or massive debt accrual. I’m just suggesting that it is easy to take personal finance to the extreme and deprive yourself of things that make you happy now in the interest of being happy 30 years from now. I don’t actually disagree with a lot of the comments here and I take most of the suggestions seriously in regards to my own situation. However, I want to remind people like Annie that happiness should come first. Make smart decisions about your money, but make sure they are decisions that help you live the way you want to live and get as much enjoyment out of that lifestyle as possible without being fiscally irresponsible.
April 4th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Penny pinching isn’t necessary if you aren’t happy. Life is too short to be unhappy. Do whatever is needed to be happy.
April 4th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
I guess I’ll join the chorus here with everybody else. I’m 32 and make about what you do. I put 10% into my 401k to get my 7.5% match and have $5k in the emergency fund. I found the cheapest apartment close to work that I could and according to the budget on Quicken my free cash is about $1100 a month after rent, food, gas (no car payment), utilities and insurance. Of that I am throwing approx. $1000 toward my student loans per month. Last Jan. I owed almost $24k; if I pull out all the stops I will have it done with and debt free in Sept. this year.
I find that I have the same Jones issues that you do. The guy in the next office I eat with every day has 5 BMWs and a house with 3 acres; believe me I know about the Jones’. You know what he complains about? He complains about how much money he wastes on junk that fills his house so full that he can’t use 80% of his floor space. Now that is a spending addiction!
I have the same funk and cash flow fatigue that you do. I found a few things that will lift my spirits. 1) Find somebody that will encourage you on your quest to be debt free. 2) Get some personal finance software and generate a net worth chart (I like Quicken). I have the last year up on my wall in front of me at work. Currently for me it says that in the last 12 months I went from -10,000 to +18,000. Keep a visual motivator handy to see your progress. And, 3) when I can, I listen to personal finance audio books or radio show hosts like Dave Ramsey who advocate debt reduction to reinforce my discipline.
I do very little shopping, I buy most of my books on sale days as the thrift store or read them at the book store or library. I buy oatmeal 18 lbs at a time from the warehouse store and 90% of the time I only buy sale items at the grocery store. But, you know what, it will be worth it when we owe NOTHING to anyone! Live like no one else and pretty soon you’ll be living like no one else.
Best of luck on your journey,
~Jim
April 4th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
I don’t believe in living purely for retirement any more than I believe in living for ‘the next life.” I do believe each individual should be 100% responsible for his own retirement, though. So that’s a ver important expenditure.
Definitely don’t deprive. Indulge sometimes.
Also the way I look at it ( or at least my goals and what I hopee to happen), I plan to keep increasing my income. At the same time I will maintain the major parts of my lifestyle. I wont save or invest 100% of any increases, and I also won’t move into a bigger house or get flashy cars,etc. So I will have more breathing room and entertainment/recreation money. I feel like “starting out” there is a base that I feel I really have to invest and save for retirement. On lower starting salaries or startup entrepreneurial endeavors, the bite is a little more painful. As I make more money the portion ( even if the same % is maintained)paid to retirement and savings feels lighter.
For example: You make $40,000 and save 10%. It isn’t easy, but you are able to “get by” on that. If you endup making $50,000 in a few years ( assuming soon enough that inflation doesnt wipe it out 100%) and keep a smiliar (probably modest but comfortable) lifestyle, saving 10% get’s easier. Plus you have more breathing room and fun money without going wild.
Of course things like major lifestyle changes, having a lot of kids, adding a spouse with no income,etc- can mess up those plans.
April 5th, 2007 at 6:45 am
I definitely agree with the advice given in the post. Don’t deprive yourself! I actually found that key to finally being able to stay on a budget. It took me forever, but I finally *got* the “pay yourself first” philosophy. Now, no matter what, I keep 10% of each paycheck to spend on whatever I want. It makes it a lot less tempting to dip into the rest and what you can afford to do for yourself seems like more of a treat.
Another thing that helps is being in cahoots with someone who’s trying to do the same thing you are (I have my boyfriend but it could be a like-minded friend or internet group or whatever) and you can get together and talk smack about everyone else who spends beyond their means and how nouveau-riche gauche it is. Snotty, I know, but it makes me feel better.
April 5th, 2007 at 8:34 am
You’ve gotten a lot of great advice.
On the job front, you should know that my cousin (who is interning at one of the publishing firms) just found a 3-bedroom converted apartment in Park Slope for $1800/$600 each, so it is possible to live in NYC on a publishing salary if you’re flexible.
In the meantime, you need to figure out something to do to keep you from feeling so pinched NOW. Rolling back the 401(k) or student loans a bit (say, $50 a month) won’t kill you if you bump them back up next year, and might help you breathe more easily. But I also think you should think about how to handle being free of your car payments.
The standard advice is to roll that “found” money over into other debt payment, savings, etc. But, if you’ll have three months at the end of this year without it, then why not be a bit frivolous until the new year and fund a “blow it on fun stuff” account instead? $700-$800 won’t get you to Hawaii or Iceland, but it could get you a trip to several US cities (given a carefully purchased plane ticket and a couple of nights at a modest hotel, you might even have some money left over for sightseeing). It could get you an electronic gadget or two that you’ve been wanting. It could cover a decent shopping spree.
Then, you could go back to being responsible with the money in January. But in the meantime, you’d have the rest of this year to plan how you’d use it, and then probably a few months next year of getting things in motion. And that might help you feel like you’re doing more than just having eggs for dinner.
April 5th, 2007 at 8:43 am
Oh, and one more thing:
beanspants1, the student loan interest deduction is “above the line,” so even people who take the standard deduction still qualify for the full deduction as long as their MAGI is under $50K, and for a partial for those with a MAGI under $65K. Annie should be able to take that deduction for quite awhile, given her base salary and 401(k) contributions.
April 5th, 2007 at 9:10 am
My advice would be to stop paying so much on the student loans and put more money into the emergency fund. Student loans usually have a low enough interest rate that it is worth it to stretch out their payment and take the loan interest reduction on a tax return.
April 5th, 2007 at 9:30 am
[...] digg, reddit Over at Get Rich Slowly, J.D. posted an interesting discussion on the question of when the payoff comes for all the work of being frugal, saving, and investing. To quote Annie: I look around and see people my age buying expensive condos, carrying expensive [...]
April 5th, 2007 at 10:32 am
I recently addressed the same sort of envy issues on my blog (Time or Money-envy) so I understand Annie’s perspective.
Truthfully the big pay-off comes mostly late in life, when you’re older or retired. That’s when you see the difference between those who saved and those who didn’t. It is not only a difference in lifestyle (traveling or staying home, taking interesting classes or watching TV at home, and so forth). There is also a difference in mental health. Those who have retirement savings generally enjoy a greater peace of mind and feeling of independence.
At the same time, for my older relatives, money is secondary to health and family/friends. There are many ways to enjoy life without overspending.
So my advice is to travel more! Sure you could save more but traveling abroad is truly a rewarding experience. When I was your age, I travelled to Europe and Asia even though I lived in a high cost of living area (and I definitely made less money than you do).
April 5th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Annie,
The sunblock is worth it. I’m on the other side of 40.
April 5th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
>>I can’t afford to live in New York
Why live there?
There are *tons* of publishing jobs in places much more affordable then there. You can buy a 5 bedroom house in the swankyiest part of Atlanta or Austin for what a 1 bedroom condo costs in many places in Manhattan.
There are *tons* of non-publishing jobs in new york that pay much more yet require the same skillset you have. For example: Atlanta and Austin.
Pick one. Or start your own publishing house and take the profits that are obviously not being paid to the employees yourself.
New York, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago are all hideously expensive cites to live in, and in general, draw materialists to them in droves. Therefore, many *more* of the people you hang out with in those cities will make you feel deprived, where if you live somewhere more modest, you’d have to try to find that type of person.
You impress me even more you have done what you did while in NYC.
–Michael
April 5th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
When are people going to stop comparing themselves to everyone else? it is simply stupid, useless, fruitless, and every other idiotic sentiment i cannot conjure at the moment. everyone is unique and everyone’s situation is unique–that is, unless people are living on some clone island that has missed the eyes of the Enquirer.
Annie, you shouldn’t be asking yourself when the payoff will come, because it is a useless question. unless you are roaming around aimlessly in life, which you may be, then you should already know what, how, when, why defines the payoff. if you do not know, then you seriously need to think about what you value in life and what you want out of it. the payoff isn’t a yardstick measured by how other people are living life, it is how you want to live your own life.
second, i get the sense that you are saving without direction with comments like “it had better payoff.” Do you have short, mid and long term goals for your budget? if so, then the payoff are those goals. If not, then you need to figure out what your goals are in life and adjust accordingly; otherwise, you are putting money away for the sake of putting it away.
third, a budget isn’t for the sole purpose of saving. a budget is so you can spend money, too. if within your goals, you can spend money on need and want items, then do so. if you need to adjust things, because want and need items have associated costs, then adjust accordingly. everyone seems to be living in a fixed world, when life isn’t as neat and delineated as such. flexibility is essential. just understand that there are associated costs: extending the time frame until retirement, extending debt payoff, etc.
When are people going to stop using meaningless numbers, too? if all things were equal, numbers make sense. life isn’t as static nor cut and dry as numbers make life out to be. it makes no sense numerically to delay repaying a loan, in lieu of taking a trip to zanzibar. if you want to take a trip to zanzibar, just account for it and know the costs associated with it.
what you are doing wrong is that you are comparing your situation and your values to those of others. STOP IT!!!
April 5th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
one other thing, life simply isn’t fare when you compare yourself to others. people will make more than you, others will make less. someone will lose a leg, others will not. the point isn’t to take the life isn’t fare approach to living life, but to look at yourself and determine what you want to define your life.
April 5th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Annie,
Two things. First, don’t let today’s housing prices convince you that you will never be able to afford a house. Also, don’t be in a hurry to buy. There’s a lot of downside to the current housing market, and anyone who doesn’t think so should go out to YouTube and search for the home price roller coaster video. It’s an eye-opener.
Second, you should decide what it is you like about publishing as a field and what your ultimate goal is. Because you really may not have to give it up. Do you want to edit fiction or magazines or best-sellers? Then you may want to take Scarfish’s advice about NYC. It’s certainly doable. My sister lives in New York on a shoestring and is very happy because she’s doing what she likes.
But if it’s something else that draws you, look to Lindsey’s advise about other options. There are University presses, textbook publishers, and small presses galore out in inexpensive medium-sized cities where you can afford to live. Remember that many of theses options provide benefits that more than make up for the lower salaries, quite aside from the lower cost of living. My university, for example, puts 10% of my salary into a retirement fund, with no match required. They also pay tuition if I want to take classes, pay the lion’s share of very good health insurance, and provide five weeks of vacation a year, all in a city with a median home price of less than $200,000.
Whatever you decide, good luck, and do take to heart what many others on this thread have said. Be sure to take a little out to treat yourself every now and again.
April 6th, 2007 at 1:32 am
Take the dang cheap vacation to Mexico. Just about every city has competitive rates to fly down to Mexico. Especially Cancun for around $200. Once you get down there, everything is really cheap if you don’t stay at the 5 star US standard hotels. Go for the mom & pop shops. You will have a far better experience while everyone else who goes down there will feel like they never left US soil.
Want to really save money & have fun. Stay at a hostel while you are still young. Plenty of people like you. I’ve had a blast doing that.
Pick up some Lonely Planet Guide Books to plan a frugal vacation that is 10 times better anyone else will get:
Mexico
Belize & Guatamala (Beatiful, gotta ride the chick bus!!!)
Instead of spending most of her time in Cancun, I would suggest hitching a bus down to Playa Del Carmen. Much more relaxed.
Seriously, plan trips where the biggest expense is the plane ride to the country. Once you get there life is on the cheap.
April 6th, 2007 at 5:47 am
Annie should stop her 401K contributions all together and save for a condo. Then when she moves in she should get a friend to rent with her for a few years. She own a nice place and be building equity. And her friend will help. Later on when she moves she can rent this place out. And in retirement it will be income producing asset. Annie - Money should be a vehicle to get you where you want to go. It sounds right now money is driving you. Who needs the stress. Life is uncertain - eat dessert first.
April 6th, 2007 at 6:06 am
@Don: Well played w/ the Wii comment.
@Annie,
I’m in a similar situation. I just opened a Vanguard Roth IRA this week, I signed up for the 401(k) at work two months ago, and I dump lots of money into online savings accounts every month for emergencies like a new car or medical bills. I also see my friends buying many fun things, and buying expensive things, and it’s really tough not to compare my relatively frugal self to them. But, I realized recently that I don’t know about their financial situations. And even if I do, it really doesn’t matter, because what makes them tick is different from what makes me tick.
I can be happy w/ a single yearly expensive purchase (the Wii last Christmas) that will bring me years and years of fun (”Rayman Raving Rabbids” with a bunch of close friends was well worth the cost :D). I have friends who buy new, expensive gadgets every month, but so what? I can be happy buying a new graphic novel or a CD every few months, since I only buy those fun things when I know I’ll get enjoyment out of them for years at a time. I have friends who buy books and CDs all the time, but again, so what?
You have to do what makes you happy and comfortable, not what others think you should do or what you think others want you to do. It’s not a race against anything or anyone but time. With your retirement savings, and your debt reduction plan, you’re setting yourself up for a bright future, and that’s all that matters. Re-read some of your favorite sensible personal finance books for inspiration, figure out what matters to you, and tune out all the noise.
April 7th, 2007 at 5:00 am
Many young people today (and in the past) have rich/wealthy families who support them in school/life. Sometimes it’s a bit outstanding how much money is thrown around. My nephew just got a 40k vw for free, free education, and expensive gifts…all from a rich grandmother. It’s a bit unfortunate that people who have to “make it on their own” are frustrated by this sort of imbalance in life.
Read freakonomics, it’s a real good book and exposes the propaganda that you are subjected to…
I can only advise (while they rub it in your face…) to ignore and avoid those “friends” and work on doing what you love to do. Save you money, pay your debts, and build your own life. You really don’t have a choice anyway
April 7th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
I came late to the discussion, but everything said is true. I’m 36 right now, and I’ve done most of the right things. I was basically an Annie, except I went to school on scholarship and didn’t have that debt to deal with. I remember always ordering water when I went out to eat, to keep the bills down.
Now I’m helping my friends get their lives in order, so I think you’ve nothing to compare unfavorably against. I just helped a family member (just older than me) open an IRA. No retirement savings yet, none. And if that doesn’t cause them stress now, it will down the line.
I just encouraged a friend (also older than me) to set a plan to pay off her credit card. I even bought her a copy of Elizabeth Warren’s “All Your Worth,” just to get her inspired. No retirement savings and plenty of stress already.
Warren btw, might say you are saving too much and not spending enough on yourself. It’s worth thinking about and others suggested that too.
You will definitely feel more free to spend on yourself when that car is paid off, so don’t stress about it. That’s not very far away.
I love the suggestion to join a group or club. Having something cheap and fun to do regularly with other people is totally a life improver. I suggest bellydance. Body type is surprisingly unimportant, and it’s really fun. In my experience the people who do it are very encouraging and fun.
If it costs to join a group, you might find a university or college group. At your age, you’d still fit in well (although after a bit you won’t even care because you’ll just be one of the girls), and in my experience a lot of student clubs are free and just happy to have people come whether they are students or not.
April 13th, 2007 at 8:40 am
I have a different approach; rather than maximize my frugality and savings, I constantly strive to maximize my income. Of course this isn’t always possible but I think more people have more earning potential than they realize.
Anecdotal data point: my first job in my current field paid $32k (in 1998). Two years later I had negotiated a series of raises and was making $50k at the same job. I then left for a $75k job, and over the following 6+ years I have been promoted and negotiated raises so I’m making low 100s. By this time next year I plan for this to be mid-100s. I’m not a genius, and I’m not a master negotiator. But I have ambition, and do well enough at my work (I work very hard) to justify compensation increases. I keep tabs on what the market supports, and make sure I periodically (meaning at least yearly) discuss my compensation w/ my boss(es). Considering I’ve essentially quadrupled my salary in the last 8 years, I think my strategy is a successful one.
My point is not that everyone can follow this kind of trajectory (some fields are more lucrative than others), but that spending a few hours negotiating a raise will probably pay much better long-term dividends than any amount of efficiency or investment of your current funds. There’s the added bonus of starting your next job’s salary negotiations on a higher plane as well.
Saving and being frugal on one hand, and pushing to earn more on the other, are COMPLEMENTARY strategies, rather than being mutually exclusive — but if you’re working hard to make $43k sustain your lifestyle, investing some time to make that income $53k or $63k will ease things no amount of frugality could.
HTH someone out there!
/Chris
April 26th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
The answer is: 5 years. Once Annie gets her debt out of the way she will notice a jump in her standard of living.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Annie,
PLEASE do not walk around with a long face! Your friends are living on their credit while you are living on your assets. Wanna guess which will run out first?
Another point: there comes a point where the passive income from your savings investments will allow you to afford a decent lifestyle indefinitely … and it happens sooner than you might realize once you consider that you do not have to spend your money in the same place you earned it. They say that Belize is lovely this time of year.
Get your head out of the box.
Your friends went to Iceland. YOU go to Houston for the ballet or Detroit for the symphony or to the Hearst mansion for the art. Go =somewhere= to =do= something. There is even a wood-turning expo coming up in Indiana this fall with world-class exhibitors. $300 for all three days (inclusive of meals) plus $22 / night for dormitory lodging. You could save yourself several thousand dollars, meet some incredibly interesting people from all over the world, and still have something unique to talk about.
And that’s the point, isn’t it … they’ve seen things you haven’t. Counterpoint: go see things they haven’t. The cost is less relevant than the novelty. Since you’ll never catch up by chasing after them, strike off in new directions.
Write a freelance article about what you see and do, market it, and write off the cost of your ‘research’. Just take some notes and keep one eye cocked for ‘the story’.
For instance: what kind of people fly in from New Zealand to talk about wood-turning, anyways? And wait until you see John Jordan creating his work while you watch. He isn’t even a headliner at this event. DAGS for him, though, and be prepared to ooh and ahh for a full evening. What do you think of meeting the modern masters of an ancient craft? Possibly even sharing a beer with them and finding out that they think that YOU are the fascinating one?
Probably next year I will get to Ireland. It’s where my ancestors came from and -just once- I want to stand on the same ground they did. I think it will be good for the man within.
Then back to work.
Anybody want to buy a really nice pen?
April 29th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Annie,
You’re doing all the right things. Keep it up. Perhaps a small change in perspective is all that’s required? There’s been some great suggestions in the comments above.
We used to vacation in Europe and Asia. We found it to be a beautiful and culturally rewarding experience. But it cost $$$. Now we vacation locally in California. People come from all over the world to visit our state, and there’s still so much of it we haven’t explored. Vacationing locally and camping out is a great way to get out of your rut, know your world, and to save money in the bargain.
Maybe you could watch a documentary on poverty in Africa or some other sub-developed country. These are usually brutal, but they always serve to remind me how damn lucky we are, and how high on the hog we really live in the USA.
Another possibility is to spend a weekend serving soup to the homeless. Again, a brutal dose of reality that may help give perspective.
Get out and walk in nature away from the crowds, buildings, and all the detritus of civilization. Stop and ponder the views, creatures, and how it all just fits together. For me, these are just the tonic I need to completely forget my material woes.
Another secret: it doesn’t matter what you have achieved. You could always want more. I’m 45 and am tracking reasonably well with my savings and lack of consumer debt. Over time, I’ve learned to rein in my desires and non-essential spending (although I still indulge a little too much in books and restaurants). Do I wish I could retire sooner than I project? Of course. But I think if I had been as diligent when I was younger as it sounds like you are, I’m pretty sure I would be much further ahead of the game.
May 14th, 2007 at 11:31 am
[...] (In some ways, my current state reminds me of Annie, who last month wondered, “When does this all pay off?”) [...]
May 16th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
One thing that helps me feel I am “making progress” is to periodically check my net worth and my total unsecured debt. This can be done easily with programs like Quicken, an Excel spreadsheet, or simply with a pencil and a calculator. Every three or four months, if I can see that the debt has decreased and the savings/investments have increased, I feel reassured that I’m on the right track.
July 11th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
didn’t read all the comments, but Annie, stop throwing money at 100 different things. You need focused intensity. With your income, you could be debt free in less than a year. here you go DR fans -
purchase house, 15-20% down, 15 yr/fixed, 25% of take home pay, yada yada
1) temporarily stop investing for retirement
2) save $1000 in an emergency fund
3) pay down your debts, smallest to largest, as fast as you can. You can do it in less than a year, if you WANT to.
4) build up your emergency fund to 3-6months expenses
5) resume investing for retirement, just do it at 10-15% this time
6) start saving for your down payment on the house
7) start saving for replacement on the car
9) start paying the house off.
10)when the house is paid off, girl, you will have it MADE!
IMHO, I think you could do all of this before you are 40. Remember, you are going to probably live to be about 85. Just think, it is all going to start paying off around 40 years of age, as your income increases, and your bills (mortgage) go away. So from 40-85, you will have no or minimal house payment, which will free up about $1000/month if your income never goes up. Hmmm. I don’t know about you, but I could have some serious fun for the last 45 years of my life with an extra grand a year. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it.
Hang in there. Read the TMM by DR. You are going to be fine. When your 40 and suddenly wealthy you will be thanking yourself for all your hard work. good luck!
July 11th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
i mean an extra grand per month, not year….Cha-Ching!
April 9th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Not to be a pessimist but I thought I should throw it out there- If you were to die tomorrow are you okay with the way you have lived so frugally so far? Although it’s important to be frugal if you deprive yourself you have to ask yourself if you’re alright if you lived like this your whole life (if you were to die really soon). Just a thought that I think about when I wonder why I should care so much about retirement…what if I don’t even make it to 59.5? Would I be happy that I lived in a sack all my life just so I could retire as a millionaire? Nope. Balance/moderation is good.
April 10th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Annie, I didn’t do any of the things advised in this forum. Instead, I listened to my Dad.
With a ton of money in my wallet, I didn’t invest in Microsoft when it first went public because, as my Dad said “That’s a rich man’s game.”
Well, he was right on that point, at least.
I never saved because I would always have a good job, since I was bright and a hard worker. See that blue light on the back of the freight trains? That’s my best paying job ever … or what’s left of it. As a railroad conductor I would “always have a great paying job”. That ended in 1976 … but not before I took a serious back injury that I was hoodwinked into signing off on. And not before I spent the better part of a year laid off without even unemployment income, way out in the country with a broken down car. It’s okay to cheat people of their unemployment income … they don’t have enough money to sue you.
Take it from the old guy … life is like a football — it takes funny bounces. If you have cash, you can ride out those bounces, perhaps even capitalize on them. If you don’t, you can’t. It’s that simple.
If your friends, earning roughly what you are earning, are ‘living the good life’ … they don’t have much cash. They can’t survive a bad bounce. You can.
Keep strokin’ girl … you are on the right path and in short order you will have both solvency AND the toys to go with it.
By the way, my Dad is living out his retirement years in subsidized housing. His great pension is spent on his medicines. I don’t think that his way worked very well.
April 10th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Annie, I’m also 28 years old and, like you, I’ve sometimes become envious of my peers who seem be getting what they want in life while (among other things) I still live at home. It’s disheartening sometimes…
I apologize in advance if the following has been said already:
The key words there are “seem,” “to” and “be” - because not everything is always as it seems. Truth be told, they might be carrying a lot of things that they’re not be telling you about - like humongous debt loads.
P.S. Congratulations on having only three years left on your student loan payments. I have a much longer way to go, but I also have a plan (other than passively making the monthly payments). That makes me happy.
June 1st, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Yes, its worth it. My husband and I saved all through the years. Toward the end it was 30% of our income. You think we were making a lot but my husband never made over 35 grand and I made in the 40’s. I went on disability when I was 43 and was never able to work again. I spent two years in bed and got well enough to be out some. We sold the house and got an RV. We’ve traveled all over the country and had a great time. If we hadn’t saved from the beginning, we would have been in a lot of trouble. It was worth it!!!