Why Religion is an Important Part of Personal Finance
Sunday, 15th July 2007 (by J.D.)This article is about Odds and Ends
This is a guest-post from Free Money Finance. J.D. is on vacation in Europe.
This guest-post has had some very passionate comments. I felt it appropriate to reference J.D’s thought on the matter included in this article “I’ve intentionally kept my political and religious leanings obscure at Get Rich Slowly — they have no bearing on personal finance.” However, FreeMoneyFinance disagrees and took time out from their very busy schedule to post a very lengthy and well-written guest article with a counter-viewpoint. –jerichohill(admining while JD is away)
Recently J.D. and I were emailing back and forth discussing a possible guest post on the topic of religion and money. 
I cover the issue every Sunday on my blog and I tossed out several ideas I thought were worthwhile. Then J.D. said something that decided the issue. He wrote: “I’ve intentionally kept my political and religious leanings obscure at Get Rich Slowly — they have no bearing on personal finance.”
Ahhh, but they do — or at least the religious leanings do. (I’d argue that political leanings probably do too, but that’s for a different post by a more-qualified blogger.) So I’d like to discuss why I think a person’s religion should impact their finances. I’ll toss out a few of my thoughts on the issue, then let all of you chime in with your points-of-view in the comments.
I’ll start with a couple statements so you can get a sense for where I’m coming from:
- I’m a Christian and, as such, I have the most knowledge and experience on the various Christian viewpoints on money, how to handle it, on so on. My knowledge of other religions’ beliefs on money can at best be described as “limited,” so please forgive me if I make an inappropriate comment. It’s certainly not intentional.
- That said, I think my point-of-view on religion impacting personal finance is true for all religions — Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and so on. I think you’ll see why in a moment.
Now to the heart of the matter. Here’s my short and sweet position on why religious beliefs should impact finances:
Every religion has a set of principles detailing how a person should behave, worship God, treat others and the like. For each of these principles, a context could be (and most likely will be) experienced where money is injected into a situation that challenges a person to either follow or ignore these principles. In other words, how a person reacts with his money in a given situation often is fundamentally tied to whether or not he’s actually following his religious practices — it’s a visible, outside indication of his true belief in the principles of his religion. Therefore, it follows that our religious beliefs should significantly impact how we handle our finances.
How does this play out practically? Here are a couple generic suggestions that illustrate how religious beliefs should impact how money is handled:
- Almost every religion has some sort of principle that says we should treat our fellow man kindly. Furthermore, many religions go a step further and give specific instructions on how we should care for the poor and down-trodden in society. Does this have any implications on our personal finances? Of course. It impacts how we give to feed and clothe the poor, how much we give, to what organizations and the like. It even influences our reaction to a request from a homeless man for a handout or a request for a donation from a foodbank. Taking it back a step further, it even suggests how we budget our money — being sure we set aside enough to help care for the needy.
- Almost every religion has some sort of principle that includes the worship of (and service to) God, Jesus, nature or some higher being or principle. Many religions advocate that we worship God in many ways — through our actions, in song, in prayer, and even through our money. For instance, the Jewish religion has long had the principle of the tithe — giving the first 10% of a person’s income as an act of worship to God. Many Christians practice this principle as well, though several advocate a more general principle of “generous giving” over the tithe. But in any case, doesn’t it make sense that if we’re commanded to worship and serve God that we’d worship and serve him in all ways — including with our money? Certainly this would impact how we handle our personal finances in many ways.
Now let me be a bit more specific. Here are some examples from the Old and New Testaments that impact various aspects of how we should handle or personal finances. Some are commands and some are general principles, but they all influence how we should handle our money:
- Saving: Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. Proverbs 6:6-8
- Diversification of investments: Give portions to seven, yes to eight, for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land. Ecclesiastes 11:2
- Controlling greed: Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” Luke 12:15
- Borrow carefully: The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. Proverbs 22:7
- Being generous: You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 2 Corinthians 9:7-12
- Helping the poor: He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done. Proverbs 19:17
- More on helping the poor: If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 1 John 3:17
- Giving: Just as you excel in everything — in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us — see that you also excel in this grace of giving. 2 Corinthians 8:7
I could go on and on (there are hundreds of verses in the Bible on how to handle money), but I think you get the point.
It’s a deep subject and I’ve only skimmed the surface, but we can consider the conversation now started. Please add your own thoughts in the comments below. I’ll try to stop in now and then to comment myself and see how the discussion is progressing.
Thanks, FMF, for tackling this subject. Folks, I generally eschew religion and politics at this site, so if you’ve been wanting to discuss issues of spirituality and finance, now’s the time to do it. You can read more about the Bible and money every Sunday at Free Money Finance.
Its part of who you are and why you do what you do - and why I do what I do! Thanks for cross-posting it (he he, excuse the pun). I would add that sharing financial wisdom is part of what Solomon taught in the book of Proverbs, so its probably wise to do so ourselves
This blog entry is really pushing the envelope of relevance with regards to financial matters. I am also concerned that anyone who ties together religion and financial decision making so tightly would be giving financial advise. Personal finances need to be viewed in an unbiased manner.
So, what does this mean for us atheists?
I have been debating how far to bring faith into my blog as well, although it seems more fitting since my blog is about family happiness in addition to personal finance. I think after reading this post though, I could probably be more vocal about my faith on my blog.
As for atheists I will just say that I’ve never met a person who didn’t have faith in SOMETHING.
I’d also like to know what this means for us atheists. If you need a book to tell you to be kind to your fellow man and be kind to the poor then as a species we are in trouble.
If you’re an atheist then you still have your own personal morals and ethics which will show up when you deal with your money. You just don’t have a standard book to reference to, unless you want to make one so you don’t forget what you believe in.
The fact is, the basic rules of money apply equally to everyone. They can be utilized by the good, the bad, the ugly, and the morally indifferent, and the results will be the same. Christians will build wealth if they live on less than they earn … on the other hand, atheists will build wealth if they live on less than they earn. What you’ve done in this post is simply cherry-picked verses from the Bible that square w/ the good, solid advice that almost any decent financial professional would give. But what happens when we look at the whole Bible instead of cherry-picking from it? For example, God commands that no one should work on the Sabbath Day. Yet, here in my neighborhood today, the mall is open, or will be soon … as will Best Buy, Barnes and Noble, Wal-Mart, Linens and Things, the list goes on and on. These places will be filled w/ “Christian” employees working on the Sabbath. Now, turn to Exodus 31:15. There we read “Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.” So should we kill many innocent people, including many “Christians,” because they work on the Sabbath? Of course not. We ignore the many parts of the Bible that are repulsive and have no place in a modern society. But we continue to pay attention to “the good parts” of the Bible, which is what you’ve done here.
I don’t think that being nice to your fellow man really is specific to any religion. It is simply human. Even an atheist or an agnostic can find plenty of good reasons to follow the same rule.
So I agree to say that religion is no more linked to finance than leisures, food habits or anything else. Your belief in God will lead to specific expenses, all right. But so will your food diet, your preferences for cars or your love of playing poker.
I’m With Brooke.
Having faith in a religious sense is not universal at all. I personally think that faith in the face of reams contrary evidence is folly at best.
This blog is the property of its author and so it can contain whatever the author chooses to include. I support that. This post may do much to uplift the faithful or speak truth to those with a pre-existing belief system.
If me, it is only a little insulting and so I can deal. As Dave alludes, the bible can be used as a Bartlets Quotations book. You could use it to support ethnic clensing pretty easily, or respect for your common man (or woman at a stretch).
BUT (@Anderson) saying “I’ve never met a person who didn’t have faith in SOMETHING.” is akin to saying all Jews are really Christians that just havent figured it all out yet.
@Anderson: You have led a very sheltered life amongst simple minded people then. To have never met a person without faith in the fairy tales of religions is a sad thing indeed.
In fact I would even say that being generous for *purely* religious reasons seems rather a bad thing to me. Because it would mean that you behave this way only “because the Bible says so”, and not because you understand the importance of generosity as such.
So the question is : do you understand why you’re being generous and nice to your fellow man, or do you simply do as you’re told ?
@Mark Andersen: for myself, I believe in Doubt.
(And I mean it.)
I think that the verses you have quoted are fascinating. Somehow, the only thing I’ve ever heard in church about money management was the part about tithing. I suppose class/geography needs to be taken into account as well when considering religion.
I don’t think anyone can deny that is is very important to many, although it can play out in various ways.
Dave took the words right out of my mouth. All in all, I find it very ironic that generally, atheists know much more about religion than the people who practice them.
“Religion” is too specific. It is one’s values, regardless of whether they are rooted in religion, that do and ought to have a bearing on how one handles money. Atheist philosophers certainly have plenty to say on the topic. See Ayn Rand’s “money speech” in Atlas Shrugged for an example: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826.
I agree with Brooke, Dave and especially Will. Personally, I’m glad that J.D. keeps religion separate from this blog - if this were the type of post that I found here on a day-to-day basis, I’d have no interest in subscribing (as I do now).
God’s commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day was part of His first covenant made with man in the Old Testament, which was augmented and in some cases altered when he made a new covenant that is explained in the New Testament. In Luke 13:10-17 we read about how Jesus is criticized for healing a woman on the Sabbath when the Pharisees argue that this constitutes doing work. Jesus speaks out strongly against their criticism.
I personally try not to let my job consume my time on Sunday as I prefer to spend that time with family, friends and with God. However, I am confident that there are many whose jobs require them to clock in on Sunday who are equally committed Christians.
I hope that we can have a cordial discussion, although I realize that emotionally charged issues such as this one commonly evoke strong words. Dave, personally I think that it is improper and offensive to declare to Christians that any messages contained in what they hold to be God’s word are ‘repulsive and have no place in a modern society’. I respect that we have a difference of opinion, but please refrain from using scripture to back up your argument if you are not familiar with the context from which you have drawn it.
As to what these things mean for atheists, I would propose that it might help you better understand your brothers and sisters on this planet who happen to be Christian. I am certain that we Christians could learn a lot from the atheists among us as well.
I’ve been enjoying this blog immensely for weeks, and finding much of what you say very inspiring and motivating. I’ve often said this is one of my favorite blogs, and it’s true.
or at least it was one of my favorite blogs until today. I find today’s post incredibly offensive and presumptive, and it really makes me question whether this is a blog I can continue to read, and a blogger I can continue to respect. certainly if you remain headed in this religious direction, I will be moving on. I respect your choice to discuss religion here, but my preference is for financial and personal development information. I have no interest in reading religious shlock.
the fact is, religion is not a good motivation for anything. doing good should be its own reward. helping people should be something does out of love for one’s fellowman, not something done out of hope for some grand reward in the sky, or out of fear of some dire consequence. taking care of one’s personal finance should be done in order to improve our lives and the lives of our families, not so that we can avoid some cosmic punishment. being broke is punishment enough.
the fact is, religious people who believe they are going to live forever, and who believe that life on earth is some sort of divine practice for the “real thing” after they die - these people too often don’t take this life - the only one we are certain we have - seriously enough. after all, the real party starts after we’re buried! but if we love our families and our fellowman, we will do our best in this life. we will do our best to improve ourselves and our lives, so that we can be strong enough and stable enough to help and support others.
reading bible passages in this post, frankly, is every bit as insulting as if you were to tell us all that if we just knew “the secret” and thought hard enough, we could manifest wealth in our lives. the bible is every bit as offensive as the secret, and if you actually read it and all its contradictions, brutality, intolerance and hatred, you would see that.
BUT (@Anderson) saying “I’ve never met a person who didn’t have faith in SOMETHING.” is akin to saying all Jews are really Christians that just haven’t figured it all out yet.
You know, he’s actually right Will. There are many thing you have faith in. Perhaps you have faith in yourself and believe that you can do or understand anything. Perhaps you have faith that your parents are your parents, then again, maybe not and you’ve gone checking all the documents surrounding your birth in order to confirm that your parents are your parents, of course you’d then have to believe those documents.
Or perhaps you have faith in science. Have you have you cross checked the equations and solved the problems? made sure the math was done right? examined the evidence? or even done the experiment yourself?
Faith isn’t something mysterious and unique to religion and religious experiences it is so common as to make your statement laughable. The next time you sit on a chair without testing it first is an act of faith. The next time you drive across a bridge or walk on the second story of a building is an act of faith. How do you know any of these places or structures won’t fall down this time?
If you have faith in nothing, like you claim, then you cannot trust anyone. You cannot invest in things seen and unseen, nor can you trust anything you know or think to be right or wrong, true or false.
So, my response to ‘“I’ve never met a person who didn’t have faith in SOMETHING.” is akin to saying all Jews are really Christians that just haven’t figured it all out yet.’ is that you’re an atheist who doesn’t know the implications of your own beliefs, nor have you learned how to consciously live those beliefs.
Please do not confuse faith and morality.
All of the tenants you talked about above are fundamental parts of morality. One need not be religious to understand right from wrong, good from bad. While I understand that some people look to a holy text to gain understanding and a stronger sense of morality, others (such as myself) rely on an internal compass, as well as the examples set for us by society.
I don’t need to go to church to know that it is right to help the needy, donate to charities, etc.
I’m sure the author absolutely didn’t have any intention of starting an uproarious religious debate on this site. And I agree with the above posters. This article is “only a little offensive.” Please simply take care not to bootstrap religion and morality. I’ve had more than my fair share of life experiences where someone implied I was the token immoral atheist.
Being an atheist and being a “good person” are not mutually exclusive.
“Take not usury of him nor more than thou gavest… Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury: nor exact of him any increase of fruits.”
-Leviticus 25:36-37
Should I ditch all my interest bearing accounts, or my faith in the bible as a source of unerrant financial wisdom?
I have a question to those of you out there who are more religious than me… when choosing a stock or mutual fund do you consider how the investment matches your religious views, or do you just invest based solely on the company or mutual fund’s financial merit? For example: would you invest in the Vice Fund (VICEX), a socially irresponsible mutual fund, which has a 3 year annualized return of nearly 19% and a 5 star Morningstar rating?
I can’t believe that you didn’t mention the most famous verse on money in the whole Bible. Timothy 6:10 “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”
When you mentioned helping the poor I was reminded of this passage where Jesus Christ (where the term ‘Christ’ian is derived from) Himself is speaking.
The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-40)
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.”
That last verse should definitely inform any Christian that Christ wants them to help the poor.
Anther interesting verse is Matthew 22:21 where Jesus vindicates the paying of taxes by saying “”Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”"
Good post. Keep up the good blogging.
I, too, would like to know how this holds for atheists. Warren Buffett, Andrew Carnegie, Steve Wozniak, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison — all atheists, all excellent investors, all philanthropists (at some point).
The Bible is very clear how those who manage to acquire wealth will be treated in their afterlife:
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. — Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. — Luke 6:24
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. — James 5:1
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/rich.html
I guess we’re all doomed; since almost anyone with a computer is rich (on a global scale). I guess Jesus thinks it’s ok to have some money, so long as you don’t have too much.
I don’t really see what this post has to do with personal finance at all. It’s unfortunate to see it on an otherwise great and informative blog. Matters of faith and matter of money, regardless of what the author attempted to prove, have nothing to do with one another. The author is making religious arguments on a finance blog, one: that religion and morality are mutually exclusive (Which they are NOT - basic human morality preceded the Christian age by at least 3000 years with the Babylonian and Sumerian cultures, then later with anicent Egyptian cultures. Furthermore, there are plenty of friendly atheists and agnostics out there
). Two: The author indicates that the Bible contains some generalized axiomatic statements about handling finances. How useful these are in the face of solid and specific monetary advice dealing with the modern age is up to the reader…I would rather have a copy of The Intelligent Asset Allocator over the bible any day (or at the very least, for axiomatic advice…Ben Franklins Poor Richards Almanac, and that was written by a Deist who understood all too well the divisions between church and state).
As a reader looking for solid financial advice, its kind of annoying to see a “Christian” perspective where it really doesn’t belong. I could go to Church for that
For this post I unsubscribed.
Religion is inappropriate. Please not the misery and destruction caused by religious faith around the globe.
My finances have not killed anyone. Bling religious faith has.
Religion aside, it just comes back to practice what you preach and put your money where your mouth is. Whether one’s priorities is religion, protecting the environment, charity, etc…, putting our money to work for it demonstrates our faith, conviction, dedication, whatever it may be, towards that passion.
Sorry, but I feel I have to comment on this one - because this is so typical that it annoys me big time.
I’ve grown into an atheist (at least regarding organised religious organisations, who are more and more turning into shameless scams in my book), yet mildly agnostic (who am I to say with 100% certainty there is no higher power).
But you seem to forget a key point: common sense. I don’t need any bible (or coran, etc. you get the point) to know generosity is good, or figuring out that stealing or killing is bad.
Same with my investments: faith has absolutely no importance as long as you can handle the most basic common sense. Not an exclusive to the faithful.
Oh, poor atheists. He didn’t address your point of view, did he? What a mean-hearted guy.
Here’s a tip: IF a blogger says from the beginning of the post that s/he is a Christian (Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Something-Other-Than-What-You-Believe), don’t expect that blogger to fully address your point of view in a fair and unbiased way. Really, could that blogger expect the same treatment from you?
To the point of the blog post: nice work. It’s hard to truly connect principle and practice. This is a great reminder. A helpful follow-up post might include advice on wise giving strategies.
There’s always this one…
No man can serve two masters; for either He will hate the one and love the other; or else He will hold the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mommon [material wealth].
Mathew 6:24
BUT (@Anderson) saying “I’ve never met a person who didn’t have faith in SOMETHING.” is akin to saying all Jews are really Christians that just haven’t figured it all out yet.
To quote Shepherd Book, from a favorite movie of mine (Serenity)…”When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I’m talking about God?” Also, “I don’t care what you believe in, just believe.”
The OP said belief in something. Maybe it’s belief in yourself, or your famiy or science. Maybe it’s belief in the idea that orange juice gives you telepathy.
Atheists do not have beliefs. Atheists make observations and predictions based on empirical evidence.
To say that atheists have beliefs is to confuse “beliefs” with “values”.
Guys,
Hey everyone. This was a guest-post since JD is out of the country. I do not know why there is so much anger, and folks saying they are unsubscribing based on one post?! Seriously?
JD lined up alot of guest posts to keep contents flowing while he enjoyed a much needed vacation. Please don’t prejudge freemoneyfinance, GRS, or its great community based on one post.
Thanks
-JH, subbing in for JD until August.
PS: you can leave me a private message on the forums if you were greatly upset by this post, or have similarly strong feelings and I will let JD know when he gets back.
I guess religious stuff tweaks alot of buttons. I guess I’m too agnostic (or lazy) to have such a reaction.
I’d agree that an individual’s beliefs do/should affect how they manage finances. However, as a Buddhist, I don’t find much personal value in bible quotes. I avoid blogs that use them too often.
Good advice should have real-world data to back it up. Once you get into “because God said so,” I’ve lost interest. I understand that other bible-readers might enjoy such posts, so go ahead and do it if you like. I’ll come back later.
This was such a stupid idea.
What’s the next topic? Politics? How it is important to be a republican for finances?
“Oh, poor atheists. He didn’t address your point of view, did he? What a mean-hearted guy”.
Guess she qualifies as the next guest: unrespectful and not very smart.
So which of the wealthy electronic ministers who regularly fleece the flock do you really want to be? Nice description of chinese menu christianity you wrote. What ever fit your argument you used. What ever did not, you ignored.
You are a moron.
Scott — I’m sorry, but some of the messages in the Bible are indeed repulsive; there is simply no other way to look at it. For example, Hitler killed 10 million people in the Holocaust. Almost all normal, intelligent human beings can agree that Hitler was repulsive. Yet God killed EVERY LIVING THING in the story of Noah’s Ark. He killed new-born babies, grandmas, pigs, snakes, uncles, disabled people, retarded people, EVERY LIVING THING. Do you not find this mass murder of little girls and grandmas repulsive? If not, why not? Did they “deserve” it? Please try watching this short video for some further perspective:
http://www.yoism.org/?q=node/213
Wow, I definitely didn’t mean to open a can of worms like the one just unleashed upon this blog.
When I said that everyone I’ve ever met believed in SOMETHING, I meant that there are facts and universal truths that people believe, or if they claim they do not believe them, still live their lives to the contrary.
You don’t have to be religious to believe in something. You wouldn’t look at a brand new car and investigate all the science behind the engine, door mechanics, etc. to believe that it will start. You put faith in the manufacturer that the car will start.
I’m not saying that anyone should bow down and worship the God I worship on this blog; rather, I am expressing my opinion on things as I see them.
My evidence for what I believe is based on the idea that for me to claim that God doesn’t exist, I would have to know everything about all things to definitively say God does not exist. Since I won’t claim such omniscience, I must conclude that God could exist (with no proof).
I can’t describe what brought me to Christianity, but I was raised to see all religions as intolerant idiots trying to manipulate people. This does exist in churches, and I’m sure in mosques and other places of worship as well. Yet I was drawn to it and God has shown His existance to me far beyond what science has shown to the contrary.
So what does this post mean for atheists? Well, I guess if you don’t believe the Bible to be the holy word of God, you could still take the advice here as general wisdom that has guided humans in their decisions for centuries. You could also ignore it, and my guess is you would be plenty happy.
Just please don’t be so intolerant to unsubscribe from a blog because the author has a different opinion than you do. We would lead a pretty sheltered life if we couldn’t stand a difference in opinion.
The reactions of many just goes to show how charged people are about religion. Western society is so secular now that any mention of religion having anything to do with everyday activities is so foreign. Religion does influence what people do but does the christian (in this case) view differ that much from the agnostic or atheist view?
I’m blown away by the overwhelming number of negative responses to this article. Even though I am not, myself a person of faith, I wouldn’t have anticipated so many negative comments from what the guest author wrote.
Sorry, but I am going to make an attempt to rewrite what I think the guest author should have said. It’s sort of like what Michael Pollan says about traditional food culture, but replacing food with money.
We all affected by our cultures, and the subcultures we belong to. Our subcultures have a huge affect on the way we view money. One of the subcultures we may or may not belong to is a religious organization.
There is a great variation in how much the various religious organizations teach about the value of money. In traditional Protestantism, there was a huge emphasis on work and frugality — the traditional Protestant Ethic. While the Protestant Ethic has its weak side (crushing creativity, etc.), it did serve as a good framework for generations of protestants to use to work toward a prosperous future.
From what I’ve seen, many of today’s Christian churches have abandoned such worldly teaching — even if such things are talked about from the pulpit, there is no common understanding that everybody has to actually follow them.
What that means is that most Americans are left without a traditional money culture to guide them. That seems liberating, but it in effect makes us relearn the hard way the things that our ancestors had already learned for us. Things like, always live below your means, not at them.
If you look at the wealthiest ethnic groups in America, they all seem to have strong guidance about money built into their culture. Hindus, Mormons, and the Amish all come to mind.
So, I would say, if you come from a culture with strong money guidance, stick to the gameplan. If you don’t, you can always look at those outside of your ethnic/religious group, or form your own subculture (like this one!) for inspiration.
jeff: what a christian-centric view of things!! abandonment of religion does not mean, as so many people claim in their ignorance, an abandonment of values, morality, tradition or culture. these things predate religion, and they exist with or without them. many argue that they flourish in the absence of religion and dogma.
your claim that “most americans are left without a traditional money culture to guide them” just because churches aren’t providing that for them is just plain absurd. do culture and tradition live and die according to whether christians are involved in “guiding” it? thankfully - NO. we as a society get our values, ideas and traditions from a wide variety of sources.
Guys,
I’m moderating all comments in, regardless of whether they’re negative or not. However, could we bring the tone of hostility down a bit in the comments?
Thanks. If you have any questions, you can reach me on the forums (JerichoHill) and I can talk to you there.
Let’s comment nice.
I just don’t understand what everyone is getting so upset about. If there is a post somewhere that doesn’t interest me then I ignore it. THIS IS A GUEST POST! Did no one read that at the top of the blog? If this post doesn’t interest you then ignore it. There is no need to get worked up about it.
Wow–I have to agree with Jeff that I’m shocked at the extremely negative comments on this blog. I am an atheist, so I skimmed the Bible quotes as something that I’m not too interested in. But is lashing out in such a way, as some previous commenters have done, really an appropriate way to deal with someone else’s beliefs? I think it’s best to live and let be, in all honesty, especially in the virtual world. Or maybe I just sound like a hippie.
I’m most disappointed that comments are being moderated now. Let’s keep the discussion open.
I’m put my vote in for being strongly opposed to this type of post. I get more than enough of this elsewhere, and hoped for good financial advice here. Religion is unnecessary in the realm of finances.
Besides, Jesus said to give everything you own to the poor. I don’t really think that is a good way to be financially secure.
It wasn’t so long ago that I might have responded to this post in the same way that many people have but today I’m going to take advantage of the perspective that blogging allows and just observe that this negative response is a clear message to the good Christian folk of this country/world that most of us are fed up with the sanctimonious posturing that has put us in to a disastorous military conflict, made us the torturers, the anti-civil rightists, the anti-human rightists,and the creators of the war on terror.
You want to talk about money and Christianity, ask Haliburton how much they pay their mercenaries to protect their oil profits at the expense of civilian lives and happiness? To me the message of this series of comments is clear. We are fed up with your phony morality.
This is what is wrong in America today. I too am a Christian and am truly troubled and saddened by all of the ignorance and bashing of Christians. The Bible is a love story of how our hevenly father loves us, it is an instruction booklet and it is a history book.
While christians are supposed to be tolerant of all other religions, we are supposed to take a back seat and let all of the other religions bash us. Christmas being stricken from any phrase in December, it is becoming ridiculas.
To say that religion does not come into play in personal finance is a completely absurd statement. My wife and I tithe, not only because the bible says to, because we want to. We want to become more Christ like, give with an open heart, and several other reasons. We spend our most of our money where our hearts are.
To say that if you invest in SIN Stock (or I will go as far to say use the vice products) is not very Christian is ludricus. Christians sin daily, it is a curse for being of flesh. I just try to be more Christ like daily. No one on Earth deserves to go to Heaven, however we have Jesus and his death in the new testament to thank for the opportunity to make it there.
I will close this by saying personal finance is “PERSONAL” and religion is a very personal and important part of my life.
This is incredible, fascinating and yet all so familiar at the same time.
My Runner-Up for Interesting Post so far:
“I do not know why there is so much anger, and folks saying they are unsubscribing based on one post?! Seriously?”
- No BS on this one folks. If you make your decisions based on facts, reason and evidence…should the only religious post (a guest post at that) you’ve ever seen on the blog make you run? That’s a religious content percentage of 0.0???
My Winner for Interesting Post so far:
“Atheists do not have beliefs. Atheists make observations and predictions based on empirical evidence.
To say that atheists have beliefs is to confuse “beliefs” with “values”.”
- Hm, I’m sure glad that we can only count on the undereducated religious to conflate terms. The definition of an Atheist above is more akin to that of a ‘Scientist’. An ‘Atheist’ is one who denies the premise that God exists. In a twist of irony, while laying claim to rational thought some people conflate the terms. One always has to wonder if this is done willfully to deceive, or due to other causes?
- As for “beliefs”, a belief is an assumption. While the term is often used in religious contexts, the word “belief” would not lose purpose, definition or use if religion suddenly disappeared. One thing a couple of (presumably religious) commenters got right is that to claim you make absolutely no assumptions is ridiculous.
Generally speaking now, we could get into splitting hairs over “absolute assumptions vs. reasonable assumptions” and “testable assumptions vs untestable assumptions” but ultimately that’s arguing that the blue door isn’t really a door, yet the otherwise identical green door truly is a door.
If a Christian claims a moral superiority, does not that Christian have a responsibility to achieve a higher degree of moral behaviour? (Issues with measuring “moral” aside)
If an Atheist claims a rational superiority, does not that Atheist have a responsibility to actually achieve a higher degree of rational behaviour?
Fighting wars of words isn’t always fun or interesting, but watching them sure can be both fun and interesting!
———————
Miss Shirley Bassey says:
“It’s all just a little bit of history repeating”
I think JD had the right idea originally to leave religion and politics out of this site.
A distinction, if I may… there is a difference between having faith in something and believing something to be true. A belief is merely a proposition you hold to be true. It doesn’t matter WHY you hold it to be true, it is a belief. I believe that when I hit “submit comment”, this comment will go through. This belief may be wrong, but it is not a belief based on faith. It is a belief based on past experience (though, not with this website, so I doubt that it will go through a bit more than with a site I am familiar with) and the observation that generally, computer programmers know how to make working buttons combined with the observation that I have not had technical difficulties in other areas of this website. This is not faith. Faith is believing something without empirical evidence to support it.
I enjoy this site immensely and I find the blogger’s advice very valuable in learning about personal finance, however, I come to this site for personal finance topics. If I wanted to read about Christianity, or even Christiancentric personal finance, I’d go somewhere else. I’d prefer to see content that sticks to the main subject of the site because really that’s why I’m here.
@rhbee–”this negative response is a clear message to the good Christian folk of this country/world that most of us are fed up with the sanctimonious posturing that has put us in to a disastorous military conflict, made us the torturers, the anti-civil rightists, the anti-human rightists,and the creators of the war on terror.”
These people do not speak for all Christians. Not all Christians are like those who are bullying the US and the world with their holier-than-thou stances. I, for one, am Christian but do not condone the actions that they took nor do I have the same fundamental, conservative beliefs that they use to justify their actions and believe the way they are currently throwing their weight around is not
Sorry, submitted too soon. To finish:
I, for one, am Christian but do not condone the actions that they took nor do I have the same fundamental, conservative beliefs that they use to justify their actions and believe the way they are currently throwing their weight around is not in keeping with Christian values.
Another thing the Bible says is to tithe 10% of your income, yet I’ve never personally known any Christian who follows this rule. Why? Because this particular rule really sucks. It’s just not at all convenient. Yet it’s in the Bible; it’s an easy instruction to follow. And you’d think Christians would want to follow the rules to avoid going to hell and all. But here’s a dirty, dirty little secret (you know it and I know it): most Christians deep down KNOW that the Bible is full of poo-poo, and so they don’t really care what it says unless it’s something easy-peasy that they were probably going to do anyway. Think about it, if Christians really believed in Hell, a land of ENDLESS torture and suffering, wouldn’t the Bible be the most freakin’ important instruction manual they had ever known? People would do what it says to a T, and study every page as if it were American Idol or whatever. But people don’t really believe. Your parents don’t really believe. Even your minister doesn’t really believe — he’s just a businessman, sometimes even a pedophile to boot! Children really do believe, just as they believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc.
Something I haven’t seen yet in the comments: Robert Kiyosaki advocates giving to charity/church in Rich Dad/Poor Dad. I think he said that somehow, someway, giving to charity always meant that you got more in return. It also works in his game, Cashflow. I can’t say how it works, but I firmly believe that by giving, we receive. I’m sure a lot of the skeptics will attack this; that’s fine by me. It’s a belief, not a provable fact. But I do believe it works.
Maitresse
Comments are always moderated. You wouldn’t believe some of the spam that bots try to post on blogs. I haven’t deleted a single non-spammy comment, and won’t.
I’m going to chime in and agree that I was not thrilled to see the title of this post, nor was I happy to read its religious message. I know it’s a guest post, but I read this blog because I enjoy personal finance matters, not God Squad matters. This would be a fabulous post for a Christian blog, but it was a poor choice for this one. I think JD’s tendency to keep his religious beliefs (whatever they may be) out of the blog is wise. Please, no more proselytizing. It has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of this site; and if it does, guest post or not, I’m done.
I think that a one time post (or at least, very rare) on how ones religious beliefs fit in isn’t really out of place.
I’m interested in how everything affects one’s choices. For instance, I would fine it interesting to hear what a blogger learned from his parents about money, and how that affected him. Or things like that. But parents aren’t nearly as a divisive of an issue as religion =)
I wasn’t a huge fan of this post, but I don’t expect to love EVERY post. I don’t think the author was too preachy. He was just sharing his view. Take it or leave it. I’d probably leave it, but i appreciate him sharing it.
Heh. Robert Kiyosaki advocates lots of things, though he’s no financial guru. At all.
I find it odd that so many people are offended by this post. Nobody forced you to read it, but if you actually did read it (instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to it), you will find that FMF never claims to tell people how to act. He merely states that religion has a lot to say about money, and that many of the things religion says are similar to things you hear elsewhere. This, to me, is a clear-cut intersection between religion and finance. I suspect many of the atheists responding to this post didn’t get past the headline.
I grew up in a religious home, and my parents (mom especially) took great care to show me how finances were an important part of their beliefs. I am not especially religious anymore (I’m an agnostic at best), but I know many sincerely religious people who do give more than the 10% tithe described previously.
I have to laugh at those who have unsubscribed (or threatened to) from GRS because of this post. You say you’re open-minded, yet you refuse to read a blog because there was one post, written by a guest blogger, that you disagree with out of several hundred that gave you no offense. Ha, what a crock!
> You don’t have to be religious to believe in > something. You wouldn’t look at a brand new > car and investigate all the science behind
> the engine, door mechanics, etc. to believe
> that it will start. You put faith in the
> manufacturer that the car will start.
Actually, that’s not belief. That’s a reasonable prediction based on past observations and experience with empirical evidence. You’re taking a predictive stance. This is not the same as having a belief.
Andrew — anyone who’s read a stack of personal finance books knows that PF is a distinct genre. And as w/ all genres there are certain rules that the authors employ. See, the authors of PF books have spent most the book teaching us how to be money-grubbing pigs, so in an effort to make themselves feel better, they always bury this “giving chapter” in the back of the book. But the fact is, as Thomas Stanley teaches in The Millionaire Next Door, giving money away is a major negative correlate of building wealth. Whether you give your money to a worthy charity or you toss it out the window of your car while on the interstate, you still now have less money than you did before. Giving money to a worthy charity is a noble thing to do, but you won’t “supernaturally” tip the odds in your favor that you’ll now find a big suitcase of money hiding under your bushes or whatever.
I’m sorry if I am repeating someone else’s reply to those who consider themselves atheists.
Louie Giglio (a Christian worship leader and writer) has said that each of us leaves a trail of time and money that leads to the throne of the one we worship. How we use our money is a clear indicator of who our God/god is.
Even if one does not believe in God, one worships a god, whether it is Self, or something else. Human beings were created to worship (take a look at any sports stadium on a game day). One does not have to believe in God for this to be true!
Thanks JerichoHill for reminding us that this post was NOT from JD. Personally I couldn’t read it. Just the beginning of it made my skin crawl and I couldn’t make it past the first part. I am in the camp that religion has zero place in personal finance and it makes me pretty uncomfortable that this post was even put on this blog.
The other day I saw God on the other side of the street. What really? No of course not, you see, he is invisible.
So how do you know he exists? Well, you got to BELIEVE he exists. Aha. Right.
I am not even going to mention the finance part. You already went to far by talking about invisible superheroes that do stuff that no one can be sure of were caused by invisible superheroes. And then worshiping them and giving people that say that they do what the invisible guy wants money. lol.
I’m going to start my post by saying that I’m a non-believer. I’m not surprised that this post has generated some heated comments as its off topic for this blog.
If a person has religion (any religion), then it clearly should impact on their personal finances as relgion impacts on values, and well run personal finances rely on input from personal values to make them successful.
Personally, I have my own framework of values, which influence many things, including my approach to personal finance. I am also fascinated by other people’s values and the way that they approach personal finance - I found this post interesting, but then I regularly read Free Money Finance’s blog and look forward to his posts relating to Christianity.
[...] many comments at the moment possibly because FMF himself wrote a surprisingly controversial guest post on Get Rich [...]
Dan wrote (post number 47) ‘This is what is wrong in America today. I too am a Christian and am truly troubled and saddened by all of the ignorance and bashing of Christians. The Bible is a love story of how our hevenly father loves us, it is an instruction booklet and it is a history book.’
If the bible is a love story, it is a love story based on mass murder, hatred, sexual repression and gender discrimination.
If it is an instruction booklet, what it instructs us to build is not a society in which freedom of thought and expression, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are given the primacy they deserve.
If it is a history book, it is a history in which the world appeared about 4,000 years ago and in which magic happens all the time.
‘While christians are supposed to be tolerant of all other religions, we are supposed to take a back seat and let all of the other religions bash us. Christmas being stricken from any phrase in December, it is becoming ridiculas.’
In the comments based on the religious post, most, if not all, of the comments that area against the tone of the post are from atheists. No religion should be free from people disagreeing with it, no religion should be free from criticism for what some people see as inherent contradictions. No religion should be free from people who want to point out the flaws that exist in it. Especially on a blog that has been resolutely non-religious in the past.
Why should this post escape from people saying that what has been quoted from the bible has been cherry picked, that it is irrelevant to PF for many of the blog readers and that for many people, having impartial and valuable PF advice is more important than somebody trying to wrap that advice up in religion in an attempt to make their religion relevant.
‘To say that religion does not come into play in personal finance is a completely absurd statement. My wife and I tithe, not only because the bible says to, because we want to. We want to become more Christ like, give with an open heart, and several other reasons. We spend our most of our money where our hearts are.’
It may be absurd for you, but not for many other people. Most of the people on the blog want impartial, sound financial advice, which they have been receiving, without spurious claims about the bible being the ‘holy grail’ of financial prudence.
‘To say that if you invest in SIN Stock (or I will go as far to say use the vice products) is not very Christian is ludricus. Christians sin daily, it is a curse for being of flesh. I just try to be more Christ like daily. No one on Earth deserves to go to Heaven, however we have Jesus and his death in the new testament to thank for the opportunity to make it there.’
That comment goes to one of my biggest problems with religion, but this isn’t the forum for that discussion.
‘I will close this by saying personal finance is “PERSONAL” and religion is a very personal and important part of my life.’
Fair enough, and I hope that it helps you lead a good life. However, the fact that you have a belief in religion does not mean that when someone posts some quotes from the bible to back up their view of the world, that they should be free from criticism and free from having the faults of their argument shown. That is not bible-bashing, or anti-religious, it is applying some form of rational thinking on something which has always failed the rationality test.
Finally (and this has gone on for far too long and I frankly doubt too many people are still reading!), this blog has never been about religion or politics.
It has been about sound, impartial, practical advice. It’s best to remain that way, because it is offensive to some people to be told that some mythical creation, who apparently dictated a book to some lads in the middle east a couple of thousand years ago, can provide sound financial advice to people today.
And it is, apparently, offensive to some people to hear that.
I’ll say this as I say to all “you need religion to______” arguments:
If you need some “God” to tell you the difference between right and left, you’ve got bigger things to worry about than _________.
Reading The Bible Will Make You Rich…
No matter your spiritual disposition, those old guys who wrote the Bible knew a thing or two about holding on to your shekels. Get Rich Slowly gathered together some personal finance proverbs that are as true today as when they……
Not that anyone will read comment #64 to this post, but in case they do…
Many of the atheists’ criticisms of this post above are self-answering. Take these for example (both quotes from selfidentified atheists):
“If you need a book to tell you to be kind to your fellow man and be kind to the poor then as a species we are in trouble.”
“but…God commands that no one should work on the Sabbath Day. ”
Not working on the Sabbath is a great example of how religion could effect someone’s personal finances. People (like many muslims) who believe that earning interest is a sin also know that religion effects personal finance. Otherwise there would be little market for “Sharia bonds”, which provide return on investment but comply with Islamic law.
And I always find it amazing that so many people who are not religious say that the slightest mention of a faith literally makes their skin crawl. Fortunately, although I am a decided Christian, the slightest mention of atheism or Islam does not make my skin crawl. Maybe I’m just more tolerant than the rest of you in this small regard.
[...] is an incredibly interesting post over at Get Rich Slowly titled Why Religion is an Important Part of Personal Finance. I read the entire article and all of [...]
I started to write a comment that quickly turned into a post, so I put it on my site rather than post it here.
You can read it here:
http://www.gatherlittlebylittle.com/2007/07/16/why-religion-is-an-important-part-of-personal-finance-the-glblguys-perspective/
All of these comments just confirm all the things that are said in Revelations in the Bible. The world is quickly going downhill and only accelerating faster and faster that soon, no one will believe after Christ will come again to save the believers. I pray that each one of you have an open mind, forget the “religion” out there, and enter a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Please see http://www.christinyou.net/pages/persrel.html. Advice to all, please have an open mind to anything you read. Not only will you feel better and not be so negative about such small things as how a post shouldn’t relate religion to finances, but you’ll become much more well-rounded individual with a greater understanding of your fellow human being. We are all humans, let’s treat eachother so.
Maybe some of the naysayers are angry that the poster suggests that some of us, diligent workers on our finances all, are missing an “important” piece of the PF puzzle. It’s also almost funnily culture shocking to someone like me from Europe.
Really, this is a poorly written article (emphasizes what a great writer our globe-trotting host is!) and comes across to me, a lapsed Catholic, as an attempt to shove bible verses in people’s faces. It would have been more interesting as a Simple Dollar-like values post or if the author had made an effort to talk to people with different faiths and none instead of shoehorning them as a cover-his-arse aside into one of his bullet points.
And yes, JD is absolutely right not to mix religion and politics into this blog. The bloggers who do are IMHO among the most abrasive and least engaging to read.
Just to restate… I was one of the first posters on this.
Several posters say they see a lot of “Christian bashing” and they don’t understand such a strong negative reaction.
You’re missing the point. The article essentially asserts that if you aren’t religious you have no moral foundation. That is what, I feel, most readers have found so offensive. It insinuates that the only basis for right and wrong is a religious upbringing, and therefore, you’re incapable of making “good” (kind, etc.) decisions if you haven’t had that foundation in your life.
It fails to acknowledge that morality and religion aren’t mutually exclusive.
I prefer not to have personal finance conflated with christianity or any other religion. It’s the reason I unsubscribed to freemoneyfinance and I appreciate JD’s undogmatic stance on this blog.
This post does make some of the perennial logic and integrity crimes of christian arguments.
The first is contained in the sentences “Almost every religion has some sort of principle that says we should treat our fellow man kindly. Furthermore, many religions go a step further and give specific instructions on how we should care for the poor and down-trodden in society.”
This passage conflates religion with morality and implies those who reject religion reject kind treatment and care for our fellow humans.
There is a universal (and universally ignored) principle that we should treat fellow humans kindly. Atheists and agnostics are not mean and evil people, nor are religious people innocent of selfishness and cruelty. And indeed, there are specific instructions put in place to ensure kind treatment and care: they are called laws and they are broken by the religious and non-religious alike. There are plenty of heinous crimes and acts of selfishness committed by followers of christ and many times in his name.
The second crime of integrity is cherry-picking bible verses to make and argument, while completely ignoring the rest that contradict or censure the accepted myths of christian morality and practice.
I’m glad religion has had no place on this blog up till now, and more than likely, won’t have one in the future.
[quote]Robert Kiyosaki advocates giving to charity/church in Rich Dad/Poor Dad. [/quote]
Robert Kiyosaki is a fraud.
[quote]I think he said that somehow, someway, giving to charity always meant that you got more in return.[/quote]
Giving away money means you have less. Do the math.
[quote]It also works in his game, Cashflow.[/quote]
Perhaps that’s because he designed the game, so he made it fit his rules?
[quote]I can’t say how it works, but I firmly believe that by giving, we receive. I’m sure a lot of the skeptics will attack this; that’s fine by me. It’s a belief, not a provable fact. But I do believe it works.[/quote]
And I suggest that we stick to provable facts when it comes to our finances.
my simple argument as to why religion is a destructive force in personal finance:
i’ve seen too many people expect “the lord to provide” for them, or use “the lord’s will” as an excuse to act like financial idiots.
Man, did this thing blow up or what?
It would have been nice to have seen a more reasonable and thoughtful discussion take place in regards to the topic. I guess some things are just too sensitive to even broach these days. Ah well…
@Covert7: This is like the 4th of July all over again!
In defense of JerichoHill: I think he made it very clear that this is simply a post about HIS view of the connection between religion and money, which just happens to be from the perspective of HIS religion…something which he was extremely clear about. Sure, he made some generalizations regarding other religions, which he was very clear to state that they were, in fact, generalizations. And I agree with him…your religious view (or philanthropic view, or moral stance, or whatever you want to call it) will affect your budget.
He asked for a conversation and received an argument.
@Don
Actually it wasn’t Jericho’s article, he’s just in charge of the site while JD’s gone romping around Europe ingesting truffles & wine while us plebeians raise a ruckus!
The article was actually written by someone at Free Money Finance.
Covert7, you said it. I got bashed for being a Christian bigot, when I said straight up that I am NOT a person of faith.
There is no reason a person of any religion or belief system (oh no, I said ‘belief’) can’t make good financial decisions, including giving to charity. Some of the nicest, most frugal, most thoughtful people I know are not religious.
But, certain religions DO have some financial beliefs they teach. That’s a fact. Am I the only non-religious person who is interested in learning what they might be?
This was fun.
@Sheri
Even if one does not believe in God, one worships a god, whether it is Self, or something else. Human beings were created to worship
Please stop spreading your beliefs as truth. They are not. You are free to believe in your fairy tale religion if you want, but just because you believe it does not make it so.
Tyler, comment 74, I’ll visit that site if you read Richard Dawkins ‘The God Delusion’.
Don, comment 81: the article was written to start a conversation and that is what is happening. Some people feel passionately that what was said was wrong, that a ‘belief’ in religion does not grant someone immunity from criticism for their views and that what was said was trite, smug and ignores much of the bible which contradicts te authors viewpoint.
The fact that people have said these things does not make it an argument. He has said something which a lot of people disagree with, and they have decided to publicly voice their displeasure, and to show how they think the author is wrong. That, to me, is a fair exchange of views and not an argument.
D’oh…my mistake. I suppose the original writer has already been carried off with that group holding the torches and pitchforks. In any case, the author deserves some defense…it’s very obvious they wrote the post expecting some folks to be needlessly offended by it.
Personally, I’d love to hear more on the subject…especially from opposing viewpoints. J.D. had written a post called What Should a Billionaire Give, and What Should You? where he brings up the philosophical discussion of money…I can see now why he’s been slow to write on the subject. I suppose it’s just too controversial.
@Tom: What has happened here is that everyone is complaining that this type of discussion doesn’t belong on a personal finance blog and, in the meantime, are perpetuating the “improper” discussion in question. It’s not too late to salvage it into a meaningful conversation about the connection between religion/philanthropy/morality/whatever-you-call-it and money, which was the author’s intention.
Don,
One of the best things about this site, in my view, is that it presents clear, common-sense and practical tips on how to manage financial matters.
It does by promoting only one ideology - Be careful with your money. There is no pushing of religion or atheism and the only criteria used appears to healthy amounts of common sense.
When that formula changes, when someone posts an article that tries to push a particular ideology, and that is what the guest post did, people who have enjoyed the previous common-sense approach will respond with their own viewpoints, which may be very much at odds with a religious point of view.
That is why, I think, this blog has been slow to stray into matters of opinion or to cover topics that move away from advice based on common sense, and why we should be thankful that JD keeps a close reign on his own personal views, be he a saint, sinner or someone who believes we’re here for a good time, not a long time!
jeff:
But, certain religions DO have some financial beliefs they teach. That’s a fact. Am I the only non-religious person who is interested in learning what they might be?
I am definitely interested in how religious people approach their money matters. however, this post was not presented as “how religious people approach money matters”, it was presented as “why religion is an important part of personal finance”. I do not think it is unreasonable to disagree with that premise, or to argue against it.
I haven’t seen anyone here bashing you, and really - I’ve seen very little bashing here at all. sadly, religious people are so used to having a free pass and not having to actually back up their assertions that when people take a questioning or critical stance toward religion, they immediately get labeled as vicious attackers. the fact is, if we were talking about a movie and not religion, most of these comments would seem really moderate. but we are talking about religion, so of course those disagreeing must be strident, hateful people who just want to bash everyone rather than reasonable, logical people who simply question what they are being told and disagree with the notion we should base our lives around bronze age myths and legends.
Crash. Burn.
I’m making s’mores and I’m going home.
I find it very interesting that some of the people early on who called themselves atheists or non-religious and talked about being kind to your fellow man, were some of the first people to bash the author of the post or unsubscribe. Kinda funny to me. I guess Christians aren’t the only hypocrites.
Just because I couldn’t quite understand the argument about belief vs. morals and not getting them confused, I went to dictionary.reference.com and looked them up. It’s too much to copy and paste here, but morals deal with right and wrong, good and bad, etc. Belief basically means (I’m combining several dictionaries words): Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something; confidence; faith, trust.
I believe in gravity, but I don’t understand the math behind it. I believe the earth rotates around the sun, even though I have no idea how they figured that out, and I don’t really care to understand. I am confident that stealing is viewed as a bad thing by almost every person on this earth. Only one of those things is a moral issue, and yet most people believe it. I just don’t get why someone saying you believe in SOMETHING even if you don’t believe in any god or religion is offensive. The comment had nothing to do with morals. It isn’t saying there’s a higher power or anything like that. I’m stumped.
Wow, just mention Christianity and everyone says you’re somehow automatically “pushing religion” on them. I’ve never seen such a vast display of ignorance on a PF blog’s comments.
@David:
Did you read the title? It seems pretty pushy to me which, IMO, is what’s ignorant.
Religion is NOT an important part of personal finance to a lot of people and stating that it is is definitely pushing religion.
Perhaps you should read the comments before saying that everyone who doesn’t agree is ignorant.
An earlier poster wrote: “Another thing the Bible says is to tithe 10% of your income, yet I’ve never personally known any Christian who follows this rule. Why? Because this particular rule really sucks. It’s just not at all convenient. Yet it’s in the Bible; it’s an easy instruction to follow. And you’d think Christians would want to follow the rules to avoid going to hell and all. But here’s a dirty, dirty little secret (you know it and I know it): most Christians deep down KNOW that the Bible is full of poo-poo, and so they don’t really care what it says unless it’s something easy-peasy that they were probably going to do anyway.”
Regarding the 10% tithe:
1) There is debate within Christianity as to whether the tithe applies to Christians or was only a requirement for Israel, pre-Christ.
2) That said, as a Christian, my wife and I do give 10% to the local church, as well as an additional percentage to other charities we choose to support. So, now you’ve heard from at least one Christian who does follow this principle.
Regarding Christians not following the Bible in general:
1) Christians are human, and as such aren’t perfect. We don’t perfectly understand or interpret the Bible, and even when our understanding is correct, we often fail to live out that understanding (unfortunately, sometimes in catastrophic ways).
2) Be aware that your understanding of the Bible might be less than perfect as well. Perhaps you are accusing Christians of hypocrisy due to an incomplete understanding of what we are called on to do by the Bible.
I DO believe the Bible is truth (not “poo-poo”), and as such seek to follow God’s teaching faithfully. This has resulted in my making some hard decisions, that I most certainly would not have made otherwise.
If you don’t agree, that’s your choice, but please refrain from mockery.
[...] Make one post about religious instructions regarding personal finance, and get a slew of personal attacks, unsubscribe notices, and general ignorant vitriol. How bitter [...]
@pf101:
My reasoning is simple. I quote his thesis:
“I’d like to discuss why I think a person’s religion should impact their finances.”
He said he’d like to show why a person’s religion should impact their own finances, not why you should join a religion, not why you’re supposed to love Jesus, not even why you’re supposed to agree with what he said. Simple as that. People taking it as proselytization need to chill a little bit, and stop trying to bully religion out of public discourse.
If the title had been more along the lines of “How religion can be an important part of Personal Finance”, I wouldn’t have found it as bothersome. I seem to do very well with my finances without religion.
One great thing about this site has been the civility shown in the comments. Adding religion or politics was certain to hurt that, which indeed it has.
But I don’t think it should impact personal finance. Am I not allowed to have and voice that opinion as well or are you trying to bully my non-religious opinion out of this public discussion?
Why should your religious opinion be allowed but not my non-religious one?
Had he asked the question “Is religion important” rather than stating as fact that it is, I think people would have reacted differently. It’s asking a question vs. preaching an opinion as fact. Any time you present as fact something that many people don’t believe there is going to be a fight.
Questions lead to discussions. Statements don’t.
Personal finance has nothing to do with religion, intelligence and planning is all it takes. It was very irresponsible to post something like this and just shows one of the many reasons why any religion is ridiculous, the whole idea of “Jesus likes me better and makes me smarter than you”.
Just for fun, I’ll repeat that this whole blogged conversation is a wonderful and exciting (to me) example of how fed up we are with religion taking the moral high ground. This could actually be a poll that represents in a real natural sense what the real moral majority of this world feels about what has been done to human beings in the name of religion.
Hello All,
I have never commented on this blog before, so here goes:
1. I enjoy reading this blog.
2. I thought it was nice of the blog author to line up guest writers for his break, as some blogs I read do not do so.
3. I thought it very nice of the blog author to line up authors that have perhaps, a different viewpoint than his own.
4. I am a Buddhist, (not relevant, but perhaps of mild interest to some). I was not offended by the post as I viewed it as the opinion of the author of the post and in no way meant as an insult to me.
5. I found the “take away message” to really be about making sure that your handling of money lines up with your belief adn/or value system, which I can not argue with at all.
Thank you and I hope all have a great day.
I am sure that the author of this post was not trying to be insulting. However, I think that the poorly chosen title and the lack of any consideration for the atheist/agnostic view has alienated many regular readers (myself included).
That said, I certainly won’t stop reading this blog because of this post. It’s simply one person’s view. I don’t happen to agree with it, but that’s OK. As Penn Jillette would say, it’s all a part of “the marketplace of ideas.”
@Rhbee
I don’t know. I think what we’re seeing here may be more a cultural issue than a world view. We here in Western cultures are for the most part(regardless of personal belief system) familiar with Christianity and it’s various aspects. I’m not saying everyone believes in it of course, just that it’s the most familiar and present religion to “Westerners” which I assume is the majority of readers here.
I imagine if this article had been about “Buddhism & Finances”, “Hinduism & Finances”, or something along those lines, the reaction and conversation would likely be very different. Not to say there wouldn’t be disagreements or debate, just that it would be different since most of us are not as familiar with those belief systems as we are with the one used in the post.
How’s that old quote go, “Familiarity breeds contempt.” Or something like that.
Anyway, the comments here have certainly been interesting in their own right, that’s for sure!
@Jon:
I agree completely. Well stated. Many of us found THIS post to be disagreeable. Thats no reason to stop reading GRS. Especially considering it was a guest post.
“I’m a Christian and, as such, I have the most knowledge and experience on the various Christian viewpoints on money…”
I don’t think you’re entitled to this premise. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and it no more qualifies me to say how I think Mormon or Baptist school life would be than anything else.
Also, as a fellow Agnostic I think the Agnostic/Atheist crowd needs to lighten up a bit.
This post is entirely nuts.
Premise #1: Author has religion
Premise #2: Author likes personal finance
Result: Author thinks it would be kinda neat if #1 could be tied into #2.
Result as contrasted with reality:
By viewing someone’s finance habits, there is almost no way you would be able to discern people who believe in supernaturalism from those who do not. Investing, for the most part, is a place where rationality and self-control rules the day.
Sounds like the author just has a really weird lens through which he’d like to view different ‘types’ of people.
Challenge to the author: given a bunch of bank/brokerage accounts without names attached, would you be able to identify the non-theists vs Jews vs Buddhists vs Christians? (Answer: duh, of course not).
Yet another way that religion simply does not intersect with the real, actual world.
(Unless you take the bible literally, in which case you subsist on very little and give all to your brothers in humankind)
Sean, what’s so ironic about this post is that I’m almost positive J.D. himself is an atheist. This post could have been imagined along these lines instead:
Premise #1: Author has NO religion.
Premise #2: Author likes personal finance.
Result: Author thinks it would be kinda neat if #1 could be tied into #2. And of course the super interesting thing is that #1 now really DOES tie into #2. Strong arguments can actually be made from this premise. Here is an example from The Church of Reality(http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/):
“People of faith are more easily scammed than Realists. That’s because their religion requires the suppression of critical thinking. This makes them vulnerable to scams by people who are in their faith based circle or people pretending to be in their circle.”
I think a good argument could also be made that Christians might not prepare as much as they should for their retirement because they figure that “the lord will provide” for them or some insanity.
>I just don’t get why someone saying you
> believe in SOMETHING even if you don’t
> believe in any god or religion is offensive.
The problem is the confusion of belief (as epistemology) with the colloquial term “belief” which means cognitive content or predictive expectation. The words do not represent the same thing.
Consider the following:
All lemons are yellow.
My car is a lemon.
Therefore my car is yellow.
Words are symbols. The meaning of those symbols is important. If you start switching meanings while using the same symbol, the argument is invalid.
Man, I haven’t seen so much rile and ruckus since the Great Debate of Term vs. Whole-Life back in the winter of ‘05!
Covert7 — hahaha!!!! Of course, you always want to get Term
Be careful Dave… Tossing insurance controversy into this hornets nest is liable to break the inter-tubes!
Let’s get the introductions out of the way. I don’t go to church. I’m not religious. I don’t tithe or regularly give to charity. Having said all of that, I cannot understand the animosity spewed to the guest blogger and the people who tend to agree with his point of view.
Had this man stated, with no reference to religion, that his principles are to be a good steward of his money by saving regularly, diversifying his portfolio and monitoring his use of credit all while giving regularly to charity, the negative posters would have been singing his praises, so to speak. Because he did state all of the above and indicated that they are derived from some of the tenets of his Christian point of view, he is taken to task.
For those posters who are selfishly proclaiming offense where none was intended, you are straw men. You exaggerated this author’s point of view to degrade his beliefs and spout your own. You charged that his value system has caused such harm to society it has no place on this blog yet you are free to record your strongly held points of view which are laced with insults to the author and potentially a great many readers. You are hypocrites. You did what you claim his religion does to our society. You took an opportunity to beat someone up because you do not agree with him.
I’m glad this article was posted. It may not have taught me anything about personal finance that I didn’t already know but it did offer a much needed reminder that the “truly enlightened” among us are some of the most closed-minded people I have ever seen.
Ron
Wow! What a debate. FMF and JD I am with you guys, I appreciate what you do!!
Mike H. — you said in post #95, “I DO believe the Bible is truth (not ‘poo-poo’), and as such seek to follow God’s teaching faithfully.” Fair enough. I’m curious, though, do you follow this teaching from 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
“Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
The Bible is very clear here and has commanded you to follow this teaching. However, I can tell from your post that you are a normal, intelligent human being. You will have come up w/ a rationalization (I hope) as to why you don’t follow this particular verse or why it doesn’t apply anymore or whatever. You see, my friend, you are really an atheist, too, if you would just be honest with yourself.
At my blog, I write about everything that strikes my mind/heart as worthwhile. Money, personal productivity, philosophy, and most of all, Chess. Oh, and Religion. I am just replying to the debate J.D. had with FMF about including religion in the post. I guess because I don’t cater to many people’s feelings, I don’t worry about what they will think about my religious views. I guess, in a way, people out to embrace you for who you are… your financial knowledge, you family, your friends, and your values. Whatever makes you the person you are. I take it that religion is a major part of J.D. and surely that of FMF. When people are reading your “thoughts”/expertise/observations, they must know that they are not just reading words. They are reading a whole person who has tried to sum himself up in a post. (I think).
Some people look at religion as the soil, that has to be dug out, before you get to the gold or diamonds. They would prefer not to mix the two. Others look at religion as a postmark or some decoration - that says what lies underneath is of great value…
If you don’t like religion, you can still benefit from the wisdom that is buried in it.
That’s my move 1.e4!
I, too, agree that many of the people posting here are attacking the poor guest poster and his belief system. Only the argument/logic should be up for debate.
Thank you, I found your website because of this one post and I am going to subscribe. I looked around, saw that I can learn a lot and I will be back.
OK OK, enough with those who are just poking at Christian-nests with sticks in this thread (Dave :). That is pointless and just gets people riled up.
Ron, let’s not confuse “challenging some internet horse-hocky” with “animosity”. I doubt there’s a lot of animosity behind these posts. Let’s not feed into the “persecuted majority” myth that some people have.
Let’s get real here. Responding to a blog post in comments, without using ad hominem attacks or other defamation, in a way that is topical to the post (ie, personal finance), or addresses the assertions made in the post, is totally normal, agreed upon, and (honestly, from most conversations I’ve seen) polite here. If everyone keeps their cool and doesn’t play the persecution card, the thread can live out its useful life without any pointless flamewars.
Nobody’s mind is going to be changed by anything in a blog argument (IMHO). To see out of the veil of religious belief requires time, experience, and personal study, in my experience.
One more comment, after re-reading the initial post: Really, lighten up people. Get Rich Slowly is a variety blog. It’s not the Financial Times, it’s more like Readers Digest, or USA Today. There are occasionally some meaty topics, but there is also a fair bit of fluff/inanity.
The main point is to get people THINKING about personal finance. If someone is facing challenges in this regard, and the only way to get to them is through his or her paranormal beliefs, then so be it!
Cheers to G.R.S. blog and community.
Does anyone have any solid statistics on the average wealth of Christians v. Atheists, or the religions of the world’s wealthiest citizens and their charitable habits?
JD,
I hope you are not experiencing too much grief by letting this post run while you were gone. You took a big risk to be open-minded with an unpopular point-of-view.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings. Part of me is saddened because as I scroll down the comments, I see a trail of people who have had experiences with “religion” so bitter, that they have had intensely strong reactions only at the mention of it.
Anyway, I agree with FMF that that “religion” does have much to do with personal finance, but I would not use the term “religion”. I think “worldview” may be more appropriate, since not everyone claims a religion, but you cannot escape having a worldview.
Your worldview shapes what value you assign to a dollar, and what value you assign to the things you will trade that dollar for.
I would be interested in reading more posts like this, but from other points of view (i.e., not Judeo-Christian).
I think the cat was testing the mice to see if they really do play while he is away.
Ron, post 113, said
‘For those posters who are selfishly proclaiming offense where none was intended, you are straw men. You exaggerated this author’s point of view to degrade his beliefs and spout your own. You charged that his value system has caused such harm to society it has no place on this blog yet you are free to record your strongly held points of view which are laced with insults to the author and potentially a great many readers. You are hypocrites. You did what you claim his religion does to our society. You took an opportunity to beat someone up because you do not agree with him.
I’m glad this article was posted. It may not have taught me anything about personal finance that I didn’t already know but it did offer a much needed reminder that the “truly enlightened” among us are some of the most closed-minded people I have ever seen.’
No religion is free from criticism. He published his views on a public forum, asked for people to respond to his views, and that is what he got.
The fact that people strongly disagree with his statement about ‘why religion is important to PF’, or his views that ‘our religious beliefs should significantly impact how we handle or finances’ or his ‘examples from the Old and New Testaments that impact various aspects of how we should handle or personal finances’ or how he provides some ‘generic suggestions that illustrate how religious beliefs should impact how money is handled’ does not mean that people are being mean and nasty to the poor, set-upon author.
The tone of the article was rather preachy, with an automatic assumption in the article that the author’s point of view is obviously right, and that the bible (a book not everyone believes was written by people touched by god) provides the answer to sound financial management.
Your argument that people who disagree with the author are ‘free to record your strongly held views’ that a post like that shouldn’t be on this blog, even though our views may cause offence to some people, doesn’t make any sense. The author was free to post his article on the blog itself, something most of us are unable to do, and he didn’t take awareness that his strongly held views may cause offense among those who disagree with him. Just because you are unable to see any offence in the article doesn’t really matter.
It does seem that you’re getting upset that so many people have responded negatively to the article have pointed out some inherent flaws in the argument for religion (which does have a bearing, because if you’re going to quote the bible, surely people are free to quote alternative biblical quotes back, especially if they expose contradictions). He asked for a debate on his views, and that is what he got.
Sean,
I think a poster calling the author a “moron” falls within the realm of anamosity. As is comparing what this man believes to Santa Claus or other mythical characters.
The author called for a principled debate about the connection between personal finance and religion. In general, he got attacked because of his particular religion. Had the author chosen another backdrop to color his comments instead of Christianity I doubt the responses would have been so personally debasing. What’s more, your statement that defending against this is feeding into the “persecuted majority myth” is akin to saying “shut up and take it”.
Tom: “Taking offense” to another man’s opinion has become a national pastime in this country. Really, are you in any way affected that the author may use the Bible as guide to living his life? I’m not. I couldn’t care less. There was nothing offensive about this article. He did not fail to show regard to others by posting it. He stated his opinion and asked for debate. He received some of that and much more.
And it is hypocritcal for responders to state this type of article should not be posted while they opine the opposite point of view.
I agree people should be allowed to show the contradictions of organized religion. I could point out many inconsistencies present in the Bible, more than were cited here. I am not “upset” that negative posts pointed out flaws in the author’s religous views. I don’t care about his religous views. They are not mine, they’re his. My point was and is that the author asked for a debate regarding religious practices and PF not the the accuracy of the Christian belief. I am curious as to what drives men and women in handling their money so from that point of view I found the article interesting. What caused me to post a comment was not a desire to defend the Christian religion. Let those that practice it do that. I would simply like to read other perspectives without the personal insults.
Ron
let’s all put this into perspective, because I am really tired of people characterizing this discussion as “bashing” or somehow out of control or uncivilized.
there are currently 125 comments in this thread. of the 125, only 12 (10, 18, 27, 46, 54, 60, 65, 85, 87, 35, 36, 113) could be considered “negative”, mocking or confrontational. of those 12, 3 (18, 29, 46) are merely disrespectful. and only 4 comments (10, 35, 36, 113) out of this entire thread of 125 actually contain personal attacks. most of which are mild, and only one of them (comment 10) is truly harsh, and should probably have been deleted:
So which of the wealthy electronic ministers who regularly fleece the flock do you really want to be? Nice description of chinese menu christianity you wrote. What ever fit your argument you used. What ever did not, you ignored.
You are a moron.
contrast that with the 29 comments (33, 38, 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 47, 60, 71, 80, 81, 83, 87, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98, 106, 110, 112, 113, 117, 119, 120, 122, 124, 125) that characterize this discussion as out of hand, and you will rapidly see that the claims of negativity and harshness are simply hype and overreaction. in fact, people here have been remarkably civilized in discussing a very controversial topic. let’s recognize that and stop making false claims of incivility. it’s inaccurate and even disingenuous to do so.
Mave,
Thank you for putting these posts in perspective for me. Until you did so, I did not know what I thought or what camp I was in.
I noted you did not list any of your posts in a category so you must be the only poster who is not saying anything controversial, negative or filled with hyperbole, right?
Right.
You find the post “incredibly offensive and presumptive” and “insulting”. (Comment #17). Really? Was it really all that? Please.
Or how about “…religious people are so used to having a free pass and not having to actually back up their assertions that when people take a questioning or critical stance toward religion, they immediately get labeled as vicious attackers.” (Comment #90). I don’t think anyone has called you or anyone else a “vicious attacker” literally or in any connotation. Such sensitivity is really over the top.
And just so you understand that I’m not trying to argue every point to death, I agree with most of your statement in Comment #41 and felt it was one of the few on topic responses.
Ron
ron - your comments have been among the most inflammatory, so enough said.
I’ve long felt that people hear/read/see what they want, and this adds another piece of evidence.
I’ve re-read the post 3 times, I can’t see where it says that aethiests don’t have morals. Or where it is trying to exclude all views except the Christian view. But there are those who are hyper sensitive to that sentiment, and see it there.
To me it just says “A persons beliefs affects their choices.” Well, duh.
As a side note, Thomas in comment 20 suggests that Leviticus prevents Christians from collecting interests. He missed the sentence prior: “If thy brother be impoverished, and weak of hand…”
Interesting guest article. As an atheist myself I found a few points in common with it based on my own moral code in general and specifically with giving to those in more need than myself REGARDLESS OF RELIGION.
With that being said, I’m probably the most lazy atheist in the world… I don’t go to meetings, I’m not a freethinker, I don’t try to point out what I feel is wrong with religion to others, I refuse to debate, everyone has given up on “saving me” and I’m not even getting off the couch much less “looking” for Jesus.
So that got me thinking… am I the ULTIMATE ATHEIST? I’m so into non-believing that I can’t even believe I’ll make an impact on someone else. Yep… seems to be the case. I’m the best atheist there is!
Seriously folks, its just a guest column so there is no need to go crazy over it. Really, its just too much work!
Whew, I take the afternoon off to sit in the sun and read Bangkok Haunts and when I come back to check the mail one whole page of my inbox is full. So first let me say that anyone who would quit this blog after this just doesn’t deserve to be here. Second, the posts may have grown harsh at times but I took that as being more intensity than anger. Third, it’s great to have a full and rounded discussion of this and any other meaningful topic in a world so media dominated that we seem to always be getting some sort of slanted point of view, and finally thanks to the moderator for letting us go on and trusting us to speak our minds civilly.
Yeah, I ‘d really like to thank FMF for posting this because I learned something about myself in the process, which is that I spend WAY too much time focusing on the unreal. This message from the Church of Reality really sums it up for me:
“So I say to all Atheists reading this, why waste your life focusing on what isn’t real when you can focus on what is real? Christians and Atheists are alike in that they both focus on a fictional God. One asserts that God does exist, the other asserts that God doesn’t. Realists don’t focus on God. God is a waste of time. God is irrelevant. Reality is relevant.”
Amen.
Unless there is more substance to be added other than a back and forth between atheists and non-atheists amounting to “4 legs good! 2 legs bad!”, lets just move on.
Thanks.
JH
Thats a response to comments posted and some comments that were filthy enough not to get posted. Let’s keep the 4 letter words to a minimum m’kay?
[...] Sunday, the Personal Finance blogosphere went into a tizzy over a guest post at Get Rich Slowly, a popular blog written by J.D. The guest blogger, from Free Money Finance (FMF) wrote about why he [...]
I am an atheist subscriber to both GRS and FMF. I tend to skip over the religious-themed posts at FMF, but enjoy the blog generally. I didn’t read this guest post as accusing atheists of immorality, but rather as pointing out that the finances of a religious person are influenced by the religion. I’m surprised this is even controversial.
Imagine a Muslim blogger who kept silent about his religion. Wouldn’t you wonder why he had chosen to buy his house outright and invest only in stocks, no bonds? Knowing his religious reasons for doing so would help you understand that decision and realize that it may not be the best choice for you from a purely financial standpoint. Or, as Tom Cort mentioned in comment #21, imagine a PF blogger choosing not to invest in lucrative vice funds for religious reasons. (I’m really disappointed that there was only one response to maybe the only probing question among these comments, and I hope that response, #47, does not reflect the consensus among Christians on the subject of sin.) Also, while certainly giving to charity is not exclusive to religious people, I doubt most people look to 10% as a lodestar unless they have religious motivations to do so, and regardless, religion affects where your money is donated–a Catholic might be excommunicated for donating to NARAL, for example.
So I do think that there are instances in which religious beliefs can profoundly affect what you do with your money, and in those circumstances, it’s appropriate for the blogger to disclose the reasons (and maybe even irresponsible not to). That’s not to say that all personal finance is rooted in religion, and where it is not, there’s no need to bring in a discussion of religion. I have a feeling that J.D. is more in the former camp and that’s why he doesn’t discuss religion at GRS.
I am an atheist. I don’t derive my beliefs from a magic book or some mystic god, but I do have beliefs.
IMHO, I am a much more moral person than 99% of “believers ( of any type)” and my belief system is more consistent, fair, and rational.
When we ( atheists) do things like help the poor, we usually do it out of genuine concern, and we don’t fly some flag that says “brought to you by an atheist.”
That said, I generally see religious charities,religious humanitarians, and churches,etc as a POSITIVE- especially when compared to the use of Government force.
doesn’t his just represent the prime example of why people think money, religion, and politics are taboo topics for discussion?
i’m not a believer:
in religion, in non-religion, in not talking about money, religion, or politics.
i’m a believer:
in that it doesn’t matter what you believe in. people want some reason for doing things and purpose for living. maybe it’s a rabbit’s foot (although the rabbit wasn’t so lucky), a ritual, an idol, an icon, etc.
and for all the Atheists out there. If you call yourself an atheist, you are in fact clumping yourself into a religious group of Atheists. religion is about some sort of conformity.
at any rate, i’m a non believer, but seeing how some friends and parents have changed their financial life after going to church makes me wonder. the bottom line is that whatever it takes for a person to be at peace with who they are, where they want to go, and how they want to get there is important thing.
tim:
and for all the Atheists out there. If you call yourself an atheist, you are in fact clumping yourself into a religious group of Atheists. religion is about some sort of conformity.
if you are going to broaden the definitions of words to such an absurd degree as to render them basically meaningless, I guess that’s your choice. but religion does not mean conformity any more than atheism means religion. atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god or gods. as a “non believer”, you are an atheist whether you feel comfortable calling yourself that or not.
in the immortal words of don hirschberg, “calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color”.
Tim,
Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Brought to you by Dictionary.com
Since there hasn’t been much discussion about Jews, I’ll throw my hat in the ring.
I’m Jewish and I keep the Sabbath. Here are some ways my religion affects my personal finance…
1) I need two sets of dishes for everything. Three for some. And another two sets for Passover.
2) I need to live in a neighborhood with an Orthodox synagogue within walking distance. That limits me to places with an observant Jewish community, which tend to be city-based and therefore more expensive.
3) Kosher food is nearly always more expensive than non-kosher food. Grocery bill, higher.
4) Because I don’t work on the Sabbath, I don’t spend money on anything, but I need to leave some of the lights on in my house and my oven on low.
5) In order to give my kids a decent Jewish education, private day school is most likely a necessity.
6) I need to take days off of work for Jewish holidays — 6 days in the Spring, 7 days in the fall.
All of these things cost me money. Therefore, my religion affects my personal finance. I have to factor in these costs to my life.
No wonder Jews become lawyers and doctors …
[...] My reply to FMF’s guest post over on Get Rich Slowly about Personal Finance and Faith. [...]
While the various points here are interesting, it continues to amaze me as to me how far off topic the comments on this post have drifted.
I think the main point here is that belief regardless of what that is effects your decisions and views on things. Personal Finance included. Most of my personal finance decisions are far less relate to math than they are about my family, who we are, our risk tolerance, and what we believe.
Agreeing with JerichoHill…I am guessing there are far better sites for discussion of theology and apologetics than Get Rich Slowly. Guessing you might also get more more input and opinion from these sites as well.
@junger - Great write-up, learned a few things I didn’t know, thanks for sharing.
Hooray for junger, who understood the reason for the post and was possibly the first post relevant to the question asked in the article! I thought your post was very interesting, and brought up a bunch of things I’d never thought of before.
No, I lie. Many of the posts by atheists and agnostics were sort-of on-topic, although it might have been clearer if they’d said, “I am not religious, so my religion plays no part in my personal finances.” Of course, they could choose to mentally substitute “ethical code” or “moral mores” for religion and I’m sure they’d have interesting things to say. For example, we’ve already seen that some atheists believe that it’s an important principle of living (if, perhaps, not entirely financially sound) to give to those who are in need, and we’ve seen that some don’t feel that that’s important.
Enough speculating about how other people’s beliefs/ethics/morals/rationals/irrationals/PC-word of the day influence their financial choices. Here are some ways that my religion affects mine.
I’m Mormon. No, I’m not polygamist, and I’m not interested in becoming so, either, thanks for asking.
For those who are going to bring up Utah having a high rate of bankruptcy and a fairly large number of pyramid and sucker scams, and use that to conclude that Mormonism must lead to suckerage, thanks for your concern. I have to say that that isn’t a result of any overt teaching of the church, as far as I know.
We’re taught a few important principles that relate to finance — things taught in our holy books (including the Bible, the Book of Mormon), and things taught by our modern prophets. Here are a short run-down of some, and how they affect my life. I don’t pretend that this is exhaustive.
1. Tithe: Ten percent to the Lord, straight up. Has an impact on the budget. Not that I really pay all that much attention to my budget, except to compare it to how I’m spending and get depressed.
2. Give generously to the needy: As possible, give to those who are hungry, homeless, etc. and help them to build/rebuild their lives in a way that they can becoming self-sufficient. Exact mechanisms for this are not prescribed. This principle makes me evaluate how much of what I have (or want) I really need. Should I buy an HDTV or help someone who got sick and can’t pay the rent? Nothing helps me keep the spending down better than thinking of people who don’t have anything.
3. Stay out of debt: This is one of the most commonly-heard financial teachings in the church, often with two exceptions: education and possibly housing. Consequently, I carry no debt other than my house.
4. Obtain as much education as possible: This is an important financial tool, since a college education has a big impact on earnings potential. (That’s not the only reason given for the principle, but it is one of them.) As a consequence, I got a Bachelors degree and a Masters, which have served me well.
5. Have kids: This affects my finances in three ways. First, when projecting finances, insurance needs, taxes, and so forth, several years ahead, I have to take into account the possibility of additional children coming along. (Three kids so far, and dang, they’re cute. Best investment I ever made.) Second, I have to save for the inevitable weddings and possibly help for college. Third, I have to teach them financial prudence. Though the oldest is four, I’m starting now, because I’m sure it’s a lot easier to get the concept across now than when they’re teenagers ignoring everything I say.
5. Don’t work on the Sabbath (with ox-in-the-mire exceptions for people like doctors): I don’t. My field largely doesn’t require this, thankfully, but this requirement had an influence on my choice of occupation.
6. Learn to count…
[...] the comments here, I see that FMF’s exploration of the Bible and money caused a ruckus. Folks, nearly every post between now and early August is from a guest author. [...]
“or at least it was one of my favorite blogs until today. I find today’s post incredibly offensive and presumptive, and it really makes me question whether this is a blog I can continue to read, and a blogger I can continue to respect. ”
I hate when people write that, narrow mindless not religion is the problem. I realize that the anonymous nature of the internet makes it easy to make comments like that but if you apply that principal broadly you’d never read anything. Personally I find that focusing only on PF makes a blog boring and repetitive after a while. Guest bloggers add alot. I believe that to be a well rounded person regards of religious affiliation ones needs to read various points of view. I like fox news but I also read Truth Dig on a regular basis and you can’t get more opposite ends of the spectrum than those two.
My point of view as a Christian: I’ve had several long discussions with a friend regarding tithing, specifically the 10% rule. I often tease him that as a Pastor he has a vested interest in tithing as it pays his salary. But he made a comment that got me thinking. The general rule of thumb is 10% to Church and 10% to savings with the balance for spending. I said impossible! But if you think about giving tithe forces you to live within your means. Those who tithe regularly are those who manage their money well. If you can’t afford to tithe its because your not managing your money well.
Maybe it is my location (Los Angeles), but I’ve become VERY uncomfortable with how many churches that are on television around here engage in what I call “pseudo-tithing.”
Pseudo-tithing is when a preacher (I can’t use the term pastor or minister with these people–I come from a family of pastors and ministers who feel they have been called to minister to the needs of the people in their congregation and take that calling very responsibly) calls upon members in the congregation to “tithe” “seed money.” The seed money is supposed to show G*d that we are serious about believing that all of our needs will be met. The story also goes that our seed money will be “returned” to us 10-fold.
To me, that goes against everything I learned growing up about what tithing is all about.
I learned that tithing is a way of giving thanks for all of the blessings (tangible and non-tangible) I have in my life. As such, I am to give to those organizations that are in alignment with my beliefs/values (such as the Mennonite Disaster Fund to help people rebuild their lives because I can’t be there in person to help them myself–note that sending money doesn’t absolve me from engaging in service myself…it is a stop-gap)
I learned that tithing doesn’t necessarily have to be monetary. In fact, giving my time to care for others is a blessing in itself.
I learned that I can learn a lot about myself based on how I feel about tithing. Am I too attached to the money? If I’m too attached, then I need to rethink how I am spending my money and where I am out of alignment with my values.
My value system that has been shaped by my faith, gleaned from studying many religions, has brought me to the place where I want to be financially comfortable so that I can serve others without worrying about paying the bills.
Currently, I get paid for being of service to others (much like doctors and lawyers, do), but my intention is to pay off all of my bills and live a frugal life so that I can drop everything, if need be, so that I can help those who’ve encountered a disaster. Even if it is just to hold the babies so the mother can get some rest.
THAT is how my “religion” impacts my personal finance.
PS: I want to make it clear that my own value system has been shaped by explorations of the teachings from many religious traditions. That is not meant to imply that my value system’s creation is any better than anyone else’s, it is just the path that it took because of my upbringing.
The question was how does one’s religious beliefs impact their personal finance decisions and that was all I was trying to answer.
This entire post is offensive to atheists. Please be more considerate in the future.
J.D. and Jericho Hill, please keep the interesting blog posts coming, religious or not. I’m definitely interested in how religion impacts some folks’ handling of money; I’m always interested in hearing perspectives different from my own and learning how I might better handle my personal finances.
Mave, disbelief is believing.
Kelly, yeah, dictionaries are a funny thing as the definition of religion. a set of beliefs whether disbelief or otherwise is in fact religion whether you choose to believe in nothing or in a pet rock or in god, allah, yawee or cyanide laced cool aid.
the bottom line is that whatever belief/disbelief gets you through life, doesn’t matter. if you need to believe in something so be it. if you need to believe that there is nothing to believe in, so be it. how you want to spend your money based off of whatever principles or belief sets you carry and hold matters only to you. if religion of whatever form matters to you, you will find things within it to guide you in your financial life.
Mave, disbelief is believing.
ever hear of doublespeak?
I would have read all the way through these comments but my eyes began to get blurry, so I have decided to add my .02 without the benefit of reading the last few. I hope that, considering the extreme number of posts, that will be forgiven.
I have to say that I was surprised by the strong negative reaction to this guest post. I personally may be too lenient but I didn’t feel that it was saying that the Bible has to be held up as an example of PF in a religious sense, but that for many people, it has a tremendous impact on how individuals handle their money. I felt it was being used more as an example than as a commandment.
For myself, I was born and raised Mormon (and thus I was interested in Jared’s comments, and appreciated his tongue-and-cheek attitude, although what he said gave a good picture of Mormon PF) and I married a man who had converted to Mormonism a couple of months before we met. We tried to live the tenets of Mormonism to the extent that my late husband figured we had given $53,000.00 to that church before we left it for doctrinal reasons about 23 years ago. There was no question that our beliefs influenced our PF. At that time, we were living in a single-wide mobile home that had been added onto in order to make room for our three growing sons. That $53,000.00 would have gone a long way towards better housing for our family.
Obviously, my religious beliefs have changed a great deal and that includes how I apply them to PF. I give a certain amount and to charities that I feel are trustworthy and do great work in the world, including Habitat for Humanity, St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital, and Oregon Food Bank. I alone decide where and when I give my money — never again will some church tell me how much to give and to whom, at least as it stands right now. Perhaps I will in the future have some sort of religious epiphany that persuades me that as part of my worship I will give money to a church, but at the present time, I don’t see that happening, and in fact, I find the very idea to be quite humorous.
These things are all very personal, so I share them with some apprehension. (Mothers can sometimes embarrass their children, and I am hoping I am not doing that here.)
I do think it has been ironic that some who preached tolerance unsubscribed (or threatened to) because of religion even being part of the PF topic. The way I was raised and until my mid-30’s, religious leaders preaching about money and why it should be given to the church at a certain rate (and thus my parents or my husband and I were scrambling for it) was just a part of my life. I’m sure it still is like that for some people, but thankfully, not for me.
I have a soft heart for people in need and I give as I am capable, according to the budget that I have made out for myself. At the same time, I respect the rights of those who — whether atheist or religious — make those decisions for themselves and act on them as their conscience dictates as well.
While not being a religious person (no, you don’t want to get me started on why witches burn), that’s not to say that a religious influence in your personal finance decisions is wholly negative. Consider the biblical verses quoted and the underlying point:
Savings: Consider the ant, etc. Ok, saving is good. Anyone disagree there?
Diversification: Anyone consider diversification of investments a bad thing?
Controlling greed: Put another way: “Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered” I’ve seen this happen in more than one instance.
Borrow carefully: I’ve yet to see anyone posting here advocate willy-nilly (read “stupid”) borrowing practices.
Being generous/giving to the poor: Sounds like the Peter Parker principle came from the Bible (ok, it really came from the book of Luke, but that’s part of most bibles, eh). Does anyone want to seriously debate that assisting the poor is a bad thing? If may be against your strict financial self interest, but regardless of my lack of faith I still think that’s an admirable aspirational goal.
People invest for a variety of reasons. People want to improve the personal finances for a variety of reasons. Some believe that they do so to serve a higher purpose, some to ensure they have the latest, greatest product, some do so to have the peace of mind that can come with having a comfortable standard of living or plenty of money in the bank. While I disagree with the author’s apparent motivation (ie, God says so), if following the advice given leads people to make better financial decisions, I’m ok with that. With the US savings rate at the level it is we can all use whatever assistance we can find.
Advice from people who have actually benefited from different Financial techniques (the Bible has been around longer than any of us…it has remained true thru the ages) and sound advice (which is relevant even now) is exactly why we are here!!
Why take offense at something that does indeed give you an idea of how to handle personal finances?
Elizabeth,
Moby Dick has been around longer than us too. I daresay it is has remained roughly as true as the bible.
There are vastly more informative texts on personal finance than the bland common-sense aphorisms contained in a collection of scriptures compiled during the dark ages.
I don’t think much of the perceived “offense” taken is real, but I find it a bit silly that anyone wants to claim that their training on personal finance comes from an assortment of clippings from religious texts by various authors. These shallow verses quoted in the original post hardly contain ‘techniques’.
BTW, I’m not “offended” by the original post’s author bringing his religion into the site, any more than you should take offense at my rebuttal of your non-argument.
Anyway, I agree with comment #155 - whatever makes people save and invest…
I vote for separation of church and Get Rich Slowly.
Good Post. I don’t think anyone can argue that your actions in all areas of your life should follow your beliefs. To do otherwise has to call one (your actions) or the other (your beliefs) into question.
I just started reading here. I have to admit that I’m just a tad disappointed on this particular post. And it is not because I am offended by the topic. I myself am Christian and allow my beliefs to govern my money handling in many ways. But I’m not sure the post was comprehensive enough and was over generalized in some bad ways
I also just started reading here - I really like this site and will continue to read it.
Regarding this post, I understand how some Atheists may have been offended because the post was not from their point of view. But given that the post was presented from the point of view of a guest, and that guest acknowledged the post was his belief/opinion, I think any reader can just either take the opinion or leave it, which would be no different from agreeing or disagreeing on something like paying debts down by interest rate or by amount owed.
Please remind me again what an imaginary angry sky-fairy has to do with finances?
@Curious: Ramen!
Having spent 20 some years in the Army (In some pretty hot spots) I nevet met an atheist
in a fox hole.
Thanks for this post! I recently drew flank myself for being vocal about my faith and how we can teach kids to manage money.
While many financial practices now seem like common sense to us (e.g. diversification, giving to the poor, being generous, having to invest, making a will), that’s only because we’ve (as a human race) have been practicing them for centuries! It’s become commonly accepted principles or universal truths. However, if we were to trace the source, I’m positive God directed them, and there after it got recorded in the bible.
Actually there is no way we can separate religion and how we handle money, or in fact anything and everything in our lives. To segmentise so much, we might end up being schizophrenic. It all stems from our beliefs, values, character and attitudes.
It’s great! Going to read more of your other posts.
@Cheufong: That’s funny, plenty of people who don’t believe there is a god manage to pay their bills just fine. They’re even able to invest.
The definition of faith is to accept something as true without proof.
Often times people invest with this mind set, buying real estate or stocks with the hope that they will appreciate. In most cases one must buy such things without sufficient information so that even those that do not use faith must take a guess. However, it is my contention that if one goes in with the mindset that one’s decision could be wrong and take appropriate actions to hedge one’s bets if necessary one will be at least more aware of the consequences one is putting oneself into then to blindly accept that their decision is the right one.
Many people with adjustable rate mortgages with depreciated properties are opening their eyes to such reality now.
Just like a guy who falls for a girl that has no interest in him, in the same way I think such infatuation with investments can be unhealthy to one’s finances.
[...] Why Religion Is An Important Part Of Personal Finance I’ve talked in brief about my faith before, but I generally try to not discuss it here. This article takes the issue on full blast - and I respect that. (@ get rich slowly) [...]
I’m a christian. I found Christ by myself there was no pressure or anything. If your an atheist, I’m fine with that. If you want to knock a Christian for for not being like you thats fine as well. I am happy that all of the atheists on here have security in themselves. The article is pointed towards Christians obviously, so you probally have just wasted some of your finite life. Wow thats depressing finite, may God touch all of you the same way he has me.
Jim 29 Oregon
Don’t you all get tired running around looking for things to take offense at?
It’s all good advice, even if you are terribly hurt and outraged at where it’s come from.
Time to grow up a bit.
@juice: Don’t you get tired of being so superior all the time?
It’s forcing meaning into religious context and claiming only the godly ones can manage finances well.
Maybe you should be the one doing the growing up.
I’ve had some pretty awful experiences with Protestant Christians the past 25 years. I’ve never criticized them for believing what they do. I have only asked that I be left alone and not preached to. And THAT makes them, time and time again, very angry. They also seem angry that I appear to not be a believer. Again, I don’t argue with their view. I just ask to not be preached to. I’ve never seen anything like this with Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, or Buddhists. They don’t preach to me to convert me. But more and more strains of Protestants do. They have used different nouns and adjectives throughout the years, but the tactics and attitudes are the same: They all stem from the evangelizing/evangelical aspect of Christianity. I have spoken to preachers about this when I have been a churchgoer and have been told that it is simply not enough to be a Chrisitian–you must also try to spread the Word and convert people, in whatever subtle or not so subtle way you can. This evangelizing philosophy is not just within the “fundamentalist” or “born-again” segemens; it has crept its way into more traditional, mainstream congregations as well. The cable TV shows and conservative talking heads fan the flames by constantly proclaiming that people who are not speaking out like these evangelizing types do are thus “secular progressives.” It has infected all discussions of religion. It used to be that, conservative or liberal, there were plenty of skeptics and non-religious people. It wasn’t that big of a deal. Now a days I have complete strangers scowling at me and angrily asking me why I’m not agreeing with them about being a Christian–when all I’ve done is said I don’t discuss politics or religion. To which I am told that they aren’t talking about a mere “religion,” they are talking about “a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”
As to the author’s mention of “Mere Christianity,’ I have always wanted to read it. When I do get around to it, if it solidifies my Christian beliefs, or not, I would like to keep that to myself and not be obliged to answer polls or people as to what religion I do or do not have.
[...] Money Finance — Remember that recent guest post about why religion is an important part of personal finance? That came from FMF, who offers daily roundups of personal finance news from all over. He [...]
[...] Why Religion is an Important Part of Personal Finance: Read articles about how to save money by cutting costs in unlikely places. [...]
I find it funny that people who read this blog and enjoyed the advice here are now so troubled when they find out what the advice is based on. If the advice is fiscally sound (and i have yet to find a post claiming that the fiscal advice here is unsound), then why should you be so upset and want to unsubscribe just because the foundations are not something you like or believe in? Is it because you now have to re-think your beliefs, in light of the fact that the sound fiscal advice on this blog is based on a book written with spirituality in mind?
I personally find it enlightening to discover where the blogger has based his recommendations. I recommend to all the folks who like his fiscal recommendations to continue to read them and to those who think his fiscal recommendations are crap to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe for because he bases his advice on the bible is just another case of intolerance of others’ religious beliefs. The attacking posts above are some of the most intolerant, bigoted responses i have ever seen. If you aren’t personally embarrassed at what you posted, then you just don’t get it. Try replacing the religious words in your posts with racial words - would you still put those thoughts in print? There is no difference. Bashing someone because they have a belief in a God different than yours is no different than bashing someone because they are gay. Don’t we have enough of that in this world?
@happy bill: read the post again and tell me the poster isn’t claiming that only those with religion can make sound financial decisions.
Dave Says:
July 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Another thing the Bible says is to tithe 10% of your income, yet I’ve never personally known any Christian who follows this rule. Why? Because this particular rule really sucks. It’s just not at all convenient. Yet it’s in the Bible; it’s an easy instruction to follow. And you’d think Christians would want to follow the rules to avoid going to hell and all. But here’s a dirty, dirty little secret (you know it and I know it): most Christians deep down KNOW that the Bible is full of poo-poo, and so they don’t really care what it says unless it’s something easy-peasy that they were probably going to do anyway. Think about it, if Christians really believed in Hell, a land of ENDLESS torture and suffering, wouldn’t the Bible be the most freakin’ important instruction manual they had ever known? People would do what it says to a T, and study every page as if it were American Idol or whatever. But people don’t really believe. Your parents don’t really believe. Even your minister doesn’t really believe — he’s just a businessman, sometimes even a pedophile to boot! Children really do believe, just as they believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc.”
Hi, Dave.. I am Mike now you have met a Christian who actually tithes 10%. You bet it hurts, my wife hasn’t worked since my daughter was born 2 years ago and is now pregnant with a son. We still manage to tithe. Do we have to make cuts to discretionary spending? You bet! cuts to savings? Yes.
Do I really believe in Hell? Yes I do and I am very happy that I am not heading there in spite of my actions, my attitude and my sinful nature. Christ died for me and I try to live each day of my life for him. Some days are better than others. You are right my parents didn’t believe. I was a “radical atheist” until 5-6 years ago when I asked Christ into my life. Does my Pastor believe? Yeah I believe he does.
And I do try to study the Bible every day and try to do what I am called to do. I think your posts (from a few months ago….) are misguided in that you don’t appear to know the context of the Bible or the division of testaments and the situations and reasonings behind anything without studying it thoroughly in it’s context. It’s unfortunate that you will judge and insult Christianity based on your prejudiced assumptions.
[...] why religion is an important part of personal finance @ get rich slowly, J.D. went on holiday to Europe, and this guest post from personal finance blogger and committed Christian FMF caused a storm of controversy. [...]
Wow, atheists are a sensitive bunch. Is your atheism so tenuous that the mere mention of Christian threatens its foundation?
It’s one thing to say, “I respectfully disagree; religion holds no place in personal finance”, it’s another thing to say to say “religion is for idiots”.
My $0.02 - religion holds a place if you are religious. It doesn’t if you don’t. It’s like saying, advice about a mortgage is useful for those with a mortgage, and not for those without. But do those without a mortgage throw a hissy fit when someone blogs about it?
I am not really religious, though I was raised in a religious tradition - Hinduism. While I don’t practice all the tenets, I do hold to some of the values. One of them is “ahimsa”, which is non-violence. That plays out in my decisions about money. And now I’m going to blog about it.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion!
[...] 1, 2008 in Uncategorized I read two interesting posts today, one a guest post from earlier this year and the other a blogger’s response on his own [...]
I would like to express my gratitude to the guest writer. I enjoy reading the principles of finance management. If the article can be learned and applied by one reader, then the effort of sharing would be all worthwhile.
This reply covers several comments. While I know I shouldn’t be, I can’t help but be amazed at how little people can know about the Bible and still talk about it. Unless you put the real time into dedicated study, you will never understand it. Those of us who do, will probably never understand it all. Its not like that little instruction book that comes with your tv. It was written to make one think and study. I have read the whole Bible, multiple times, and I do believe every word of it. That which is convenient, and that which is not. I may not live my life accordingly 100% of the time, but I do try. I am still bound to this flesh, and I will unfortunately give in to sin sometimes. I do invest a little and due to my severe lack of investment understanding, I may have money in some stocks I’d rather not, but to the best of my ability, I do not invest in anything that violates my Christian faith such as alcohol, abortion, greed, etc. You can invest, and have loads of money w/o being evil. Money in and of itself is not evil, its when people will stoop to any means to aquire it, and then use it irresposibly or in a manner that is damaging to others. I also find it odd that Christians are supposed to take no offense at assult on their faith or have no problem with constantly being immersed in “secular” issues/events/discussions, but athiests don’t have the mental or emotional fortitude to withstand a single blog entry. Now, obviously, just as it is wrong to judge all Christians based only on the type that get all the media attention, I do not judge all athiests based on the unacceptable actions of the hate-mongers and their negative comments above. I saw plenty of athiests, and members of differing religions for that matter, that saw the posting for what it was, or at least respectfully passed up that particular blog with which they disagree. In closing, the notion that religion is some completely seperate part of someone’s life is insane. Atheist’s lifes are in part guided by the fact that they do not believe in God, as my life is in part guided by the fact that I do believe in God. We as humans are not compartmental creatures. For small things, possibly, but for major things like what we believe, never.
Personally, I enjoyed the post, because it was the first i’ve found that incorporated two very prominent factors in the human culture; religion and money.
In Christ,
Joshua
Interesting… the quotes you have mentioned state almost verbatim what various Hindu scriptures state, about saving, generosity, etc, as are many other parts (especially those about morality) though Hinduism, as the world’s oldest religion, is years older…
One note to everyone here - as mentioned above, please don’t confuse religion and morality. The ‘Christian’ values mentioned are universal to all religions and many atheists accept them as well.
For me personally, I do believe in God, as a Hindu, and so far, all of the words in the Hindu scriptures are yet to be proven wrong. They, like the scriptures of many religions, clearly state why saving and generosity are important. They also make a simple rule for saving and generosity: that desire, not just money, is the root of all sin, and to be sinless, you should avoid all desire and temptation. Now think about it: if you don’t focus on wanting that $499 iPhone, you’re going to save the money not spent on it! (Or do anything rash and sinful to get the money, for that matter.) It also mentions that unselfish generosity, where you don’t expect anything in return, is particularly important to help others as well as to be happy and to live a moral life. After all, you won’t sit there angrily glaring at a charity organization for being unable to mail you a tiny, worthless gift or decorate a plaque with your name on it in return for your donation.
Ahem…pleased to chime in here.
There is not one example of anyone tithing MONEY to anyone in the entirety of the Bible!
Unfortunately, most western churches have no idea what the Bible says about this subject. Many preach tithing firstfruits of MONEY when in fact the ONLY mention of money related to the tithe (Deut. 14:24-26) was if you have to travel a long way to the storehouse you were to SELL your tithable commodities (grain, livestock, herbs, etc.) at your local market and then PURCHASE the tithes at the local market near the storehouse. MONEY was NEVER a tithable commodity.
Next, few who have ever read accounts of tithing in the OT will quickly realize that tithing was from ABUNDANCE. It was the 10th sheep to pass under the staff that was tithed - in other words, if you only had 9 sheep you DID NOT tithe.
[7] Deut. 14:22-29, “Thou shall truly TITHE all the INCREASE of thy SEED, that the field brings forth year by year.”
[4] Leviticus 27:30-33, “And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it…”
The greedy church would prefer you not know the following:
The tradesmen who made the baskets for harvesting, did not tithe.
The cobblers, who made the shoes for the servants of the field, did not tithe.
The carpenters, who made the wagons used for harvesting the fields, did not tithe.
The potters, who made the jugs for carrying water to the servants in the fields, did not tithe.
The women, who made the garments for the field-workers, did not tithe.
And certainly, the servants who worked in the fields for wages, did not tithe.
Here are the simple facts regarding the Biblical teaching of tithing:
ONLY LANDOWNERS TITHED
ONLY PRODUCTS OF THE LAND WERE TITHED
ONLY LEVITES COULD RECEIVE THE TITHES
TITHING WAS A LAW OF MOSES
CHRISTIANS ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!
By the way, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, and as such, JESUS DID NOT TITHE!
Next we will observe a Scripture that you will probably never hear a sermon on. No tithe-preaching clergyman would use the example of how Jacob tithed. Remember, Jacob is the grandson of Abraham, the father of the faithful, whom God also blessed tremendously. Not only did God approve of Jacob’s tithing proposal, but, He made it the foundational principle upon which all future tithing would be based. Here it is.
[3] Gen. 28:20-22, “And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, IF God will be with me, and [if God] will keep me in this way that I go, and [if God] will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; THEN shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shall GIVE ME I will surely give the TENTH unto thee.”
Wow! This one Scripture pretty much contradicts 99% of all sermons I have ever heard on the subject of tithing! This is the very first Scripture in the Bible that gives an account of someone giving a tenth or tithe of his personal possessions back to God. But, oh how different it is from the teachings of most Christian Churches.
First Jacob truly recognizes God as God. He then begins to proposition God. He states that “IF” God will do this and “IF’ God will do the other things, “THEN” Jacob says, “shall the Lord be my God.” Jacob concludes his proposition to God, should God meet all of his requirements, by saying that of all the things that God will first give to Jacob, Jacob will give God back a tenth.
There is so much more to say on this subject. I was teaching people Dave Ramsey stuff as a non-profit to groups of people and his preaching about tithing BUGS ME - I don’t teach his stuff anymore and have developed my own program (quite successful so far!). I have personally talked to disabled elderly women fleeced out of 10% of their SS check by these religious crooks “in the name of God or in fear of God (the Malachi hoax) and it boils my blood. I am on a personal crusade against these flim-flam artists who “devour widows homes” and I hope I have presented enough for you to start reading the bible from the end of your own finger….and help spread the gospel TRUTH!
God Bless you and those you touch.
I went to this post because I wanted to read it. It appears some read it just to find fault. How sad! I tithe regularly and have for well over 20 years. I do not tithe because of what I get from it as some teach. I tithed when I was a divorced mother of 3 on welfare and now I tithe as a married mother of 6 living in a 5 bedroom house. I hope that the writer of this article realizes that we were warned that we are not of the world so why should we be surprised if the world does not understand us and even hates us. You stepped out by faith. You got ridiculed for it and hurtful things were said. Don’t take it to heart. They are rejecting God, not you. But if one person changed their perspective on finance because of your blog, then you have your reward for your faithfulness. God bless you!
Russ do you have a link or any online materials regarding your program/
People…take what you need/like and leave the rest!
Russ, thank you so much.
I think the atheists who found fault with this post are the reason so many believe we’re terrible people.
I read at the top that this was going to be a post about how religion affects personal finance, so I expected a post about HOW RELIGION AFFECTS PERSONAL FINANCE. I decided to read the anyway. Anyone who wasn’t interested in “why religion is an important part of personal finance” could have easily skipped this post.
I’m sure religion does affect personal finance to a degree, and the author explained his point pretty well. He didn’t offend me in any way while doing so. He didn’t say anything offensive at all. The atheists bashing Christianity were the ones who were intentionally offensive! Although, in general, I agree with what they were saying, that was completely uncalled for.
So, really truly seriously, just shut up.
God gives everything to me, the least I can do is give a small percentage back.
If you do believe in Go or are open to learning about Him, feel free to pop by my blog, we integrate being a good steward with what God teaches about finances every week!
~The Bargain Shopper Lady
Interesting. My experience with the Bible is strictly in an academic context, but I have noticed that, in general, attempts at literal interpretations of phrasing can often be contradicted by a separate passage elsewhere.
A general summary of religious texts as “respecting oneself and others” should be a solid foundation for financial intelligence, in my opinion.
Speaking for myself as a Christian (who was raised as an atheist), I find that giving a part of my money to people in need, whether to my church or to a charity, takes my focus off of myself and calms those “greedies” and “gimmes” in this gotta-have-it-now culture. I give what I can in the form of material goods as well as my finances and don’t feel guilty about it if it doesn’t equal 10%. (I believe material goods such as food or clothes counts as much towards my giving as my finances.)
On the subject of tithing, we don’t give to get in return. Some people believe this lie and then say tithing doesn’t work, but the problem is they fail to do their part and reduce their spending.
Something to think about from someone who has seen both points of view.
Everyone needs to wake up. Religion is a scam to control, part us of our money, and divide everyone against each other when we in fact need to unite together!
While the “be kind to each other” philosophies are very important, you don’t need religion to be good and honest to each other.
Watch this free documentary about Christian (and other religions’) origins, we’re lied to about the 9/11 WTC attacks, and the Federal Reserve scam.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
or else on Google video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1817848131611744924
Ahhhhhhhhh, everyone, take a deep breath. There’s obviously a lot of heat on this issue.
Timeless principles, like honesty, integrity, trust, authenticity, commitment, telling the truth, work for everyone, whether you’re Christian, atheist, or anything else.
Living a principled life in all arenas, including the financial arena, leads to success.
Does religion teach these values? I think so. Can they be learned outside of religion also? Absolutely. Do we need to get hung up on whether a person is speaking from a Christian standpoint or an atheistic world view? No.
Each individual has their own language, many times we’re using different language for the same thing. Just translate what the person is saying into language you use and you may not get so worked up over it.
It was interesting that one of the comments I read was from someone who said he unsubscribed because of this post, which is unfortunate, because we are expanded when we read and are exposed to what we don’t necessarily agree with.
Anyway, I’m an Interfaith Minister, and have no religion. I accept all people and all faiths. And if a person doesn’t have a faith, that’s fine too. It doesn’t take anything away from me.
Be blessed,
Valerie Love
Religion or not, we are all still humans. I was a atheist before I become a Christian, hence I understand why Atheists are always opposing against religions. However, as a former atheist, I want to plea to all Atheists, stop attacking people’s religion. Of course, you can choose to continue your deeds in offending people by mocking their religions, but don’t come and ask people of why people dislike Atheism. Be a good religious practitioner if you want people to accept your believes. Seriously, whether you like it or not, Atheism is a religion by itself.
Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. And atheists don’t “oppose” religion, they simply don’t believe in it. Religious people seem to enjoy taking that as some kind of attack, but it isn’t.
To Mave and all Atheists,
Atheism is a religion by itself.
Let me elaborate that for you, if you are so ignorant to analyse that. Religion is a set of beliefs and values. Every religion has their own sets of beliefs and values. Like Christianity, their core belief is salvation through grace, redemption by the death of Jesus Christ. And their core value is equality of all mankind, regardless of believer or not.
Atheism itself is a set of beliefs and values. The core belief for Atheism is that there is no deity, and the core value is that human beings are the most superior species on Earth.
Of course you can choose to deny all of the above by choose to say something like “The statement ‘God does not exist’ is a fact”. But what dictates as ‘fact’? In the most simplistic manner, fact is a statement backed by proof. If you are going to say that, please proof to me that God does not exist.
About your claim that the statements that Atheist made towards religion is not offensive, I would want to challenge you to count among 198 comments above, how many of those made by Atheists are not containing any offense? So far I only spotted a positive, out of many of those which are negative.
You have to know that I am not againsting Atheism, I was an Atheist before. Because of that, I can say that Atheism is a religion. Please be clear of your belief. Oh, please let me tell you what’s your belief — You don’t believe in any religious values, you only believe in your own. That itself is a religion.
With Love,
Johnson.
That is 7,000 shades of silly. According to your logic, not believing in Thor is a religion, not believing in leprechauns is a religion, not believing the sun will rise tomorrow as a big blue herring is a religion. That’s simply absurd.
Atheism is nothing more and nothing less than a response to the claim that a deity exists. That response being “there isn’t sufficient evidence to support such a claim”. There is no other doctrine or belief aside from that. There is no “core value” that human beings are the most superior beings on earth. In fact, most atheists would tell you that there’s no inherent superiority in any being, human or otherwise.
As to the claim that the statement “there is no god” being a fact - it’s a fact based on the evidence that has been presented so far. If or when there is any hard evidence that a deity does exist, most atheists would be happy to accept its existence as reality. The scientific method is based entirely upon the notion of falsifiability of claims and revising our understanding of things based on new information. Many atheists support the scientific method as being our current best means of expanding our understanding of the world around us.
I know it’s difficult for many religious people to grasp that some people don’t need the security of feeling they know everything. Many of us are perfectly happy accepting that much is unknown to us and will remain so. That is why we are comfortable in accepting ideas which are substantiated, and dismissing ideas which aren’t.
As for what I believe - what I believe is entirely irrelevant. Belief is a personal thing that each individual will approach in their own way. That’s as it should be; freedom of conscience is essential to any civilized society. However, when the ideas of any one group of people are used to dictate how others should live, that’s an entirely different story.
If religion is facing a backlash these days, it’s simply because there are many people who do not want to live their lives based on the dictates of uncivilized, uneducated people who lived thousands of years ago. We recognize that ethics are not dictated by ancient writings, rather they are dictated by integrity, compassion and personal responsibility.
Finally, if you truly are writing from a perspective “with love”, then please be so kind as to not attempt to claim some sort of dominion of authority or understanding about a position you admit you do not hold. You lost all your “atheist credibility” when you took up religion, so saying that you used to be an atheist so you are now some kind of expert on atheism is not only absurd, it’s insulting.
I used to be a christian, yet I’m not sitting here claiming I know what you stand for or believe in. I realize that since I no longer believe, I can no longer claim to have special insight into the inner workings of christianity. To claim to do so would be presumptive and disrespectful. And decidedly un-christian.
Johnson, buddy, the onus of proof is on your side. I don’t have to prove that your god doesn’t exist, you have to prove that he/she/it does.
Religion is based on faith that that which they can’t prove exists does in fact exist.
Whether I believe your god exists or not doesn’t matter to me, but apparently it does to you.
To Mave and Atheists,
Well, what more could I say? You have deliberately chose to ignore everything I said. I don’t have to prove God’s existence. He is already there. There are tonnes of evidences that can prove God’s existence, you just have to open your eyes to see them. But if you still failed to see them, I can’t help any further.
Surely I can’t force my religion into your brain, for the conversion of a heart is not my job, it’s God’s. I salute your strong believe in the gospel of Atheism, and if I have met you before I have become a Christian, I would make you as a Guru.
Before I end, please allow me to answer several things that you have deliberately shot me… I forgave you for doing that, but that doesn’t mean that I am agreeing what you are saying. Ok, here we go… Ready?
“You lost all your “atheist credibility” when you took up religion, so saying that you used to be an atheist so you are now some kind of expert on atheism is not only absurd, it’s insulting.” (Quote from your statement)
Indeed I am no longer an Atheist, but that doesn’t disqualify me from expressing what have I learned from Atheism. I used to embrace Communism and used to be a strong believer in Humanism, and I am dare to say that no people hated Christian or other religion practitioner than I did in the past. Please visit my website at http://johnsoncn005.multiply.com for more of my history. But before I come to know Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour, I have already understood the folly of Atheism (no offense, this was what I realized at that moment, if you want to accuse me as a heretic in Atheism, you are free to do so). Face it, Atheism is a form of religion, and this religion there is no God, or any big figure like Buddha or Muhammad, but the core believe is based on human himself.
I dare to say that Atheism is a form of religion because you have to believe that there is no God, it requires a step of faith. Before you can be an Atheist, you must BELIEVE that there is NO GOD!!! For me (I said, FOR ME), the element of believe has already enough to make a substance as religion. Well, whether you like it or not, I also want to say so.
Because I value freedom, that why I never present any “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so” kind of things. All I am trying to do is to tell you that although I respect you as a disciple of NO-GOD RELIGION, but that doesn’t mean that I am in the same line with you. I can be at peace with you, but I will never shut my mouth to tell you that there is God in this world. You can either choose to accept or to reject, but I’m telling you anyway, just like the Atheists telling me that there is no God, even though I have reject them, but at least I allow them to finish their words.
With Love,
Johnson.
PS: God does exist, you just don’t see Him. Just because you don’t see Him, doesn’t mean that He is not exist. Open your eyes and open your ears. (Please shoot me with all the criticism you have, because I’m eagerly want to talk to you about this subject matter.)
To Mave and the Atheists,
By the way, can you send your reply to my e-mail address directly? It’s more convenient for me to reply you directly from my mailbox… Sorry for the haste.
With Love,
Johnson.
To Mave and the Atheists,
By the way, can you send your reply to my e-mail address directly? It’s more convenient for me to reply you directly from my mailbox… Sorry for the haste.
With Love,
Johnson.
johnsoncn005@gmail.com
Johnson (and only Johnson, as thankfully you are not really representative of many christians I’ve met*) -
You’ve missed the boat: atheism isn’t about a “belief” of any kind. It’s about a LACK of belief. That’s where you are losing track in your discussion of these issues. Just as I’m sure you don’t believe that Santa Claus, Tom Sawyer, Bilbo Baggins or The Green Lantern are real, I don’t believe that “God”, “Allah”, “Aphrodite” or “Thetans” are real. That isn’t a belief, that is a LACK of belief. Pretty much the opposite of “faith” which is the basis of most religions.
Claiming that atheism is a religion, or that it is based on faith of any kind is just absurd, and betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the atheistic position. As I said earlier (and you really don’t appear to have parsed the information), atheism is a response to specific claims, not an independent position of its own. Without theism - without people who make claims about the existence of god - there would be no atheism. It’s not a belief, it’s a response to a claim (i.e. just as doubt or bewilderment or agreement or curiosity could all be responses to claims, but they are not religions).
However, I’m sure you’d agree that without atheists, believers would still exist. That is because theism isn’t a response to a claim, it is a belief - a faith in the nature of the universe, the meaning of life, etc. Followers of various religions practice shared belief systems, cultural leanings, etc. Atheists, on the other hand, have no such common ground. The only thing atheists have in common is a rejection of the claims made about various supernatural beings. Beyond that, there is no common thread of values, beliefs, etc.
The claim that atheism is a religion is misguided at best, disingenuous at worst. Many religious people consciously use that absurd notion as a tool of argument in an attempt to dismiss criticisms some atheists make against religion (i.e. if atheism is a religion, then atheists can’t credibly criticize “other” religions). That’s just posturing and deliberate misrepresentation for political gain.
People have a right to discuss the merits/problems of religion just as well as they have the right to discuss anything else. Generating false representations of your rhetorical opponent in order to appear more credible is for amateurs. If you truly want to discuss the issues from a rational, respectful standpoint you have to put away such dishonest tactics.
The claim that atheism is a religion can also be arrogant and myopic. It often stems from the assumption that god(s) is/are real and that atheists are “choosing” not to believe. Theists claim atheists are making a “leap” of faith that such things don’t exist, because for theists, the existence of their god is self-evident, and any atheist who doesn’t accept their god must surely be rejecting it while simultaneously realizing that god exists.
That’s the most ridiculous position of all the anti-atheistic ones, and ultimately crosses over into crazy-land. It’s of course impossible to have an intelligent discussion of an issue if one starts from the unwavering assumption that their position is correct and unquestionable. In such a situation there can be nothing to discuss. When someone is arguing from that position, there’s truly no point at all in engaging them in discussion, because they are incapable of understanding the atheistic position from even a hypothetical standpoint.
As Bertrand Russell said, there is no sense in trying to have a rational discussion with someone about a view they did not arrive at through reason. Therefore I really don’t see anything that can be gained by attempting to discuss this further with you. And no - you definitely cannot have my email address.
* Many christians I’ve met have some reasoning skills and a comprehension of the basic concepts necessary to discuss these subjects intelligently.
i totaly agree with your post! there are hundreds of verses in the word of God dealing with money & it’s uses.just because there may be nonchristan that dissagree with this post doesn’t mean that there are precepts that are universaly accepted dealing with money.no religous beliefs will change that. to the statement that the christan person should prove that there is a God is incorect, my personal experence tells me different! if you can prove me wrong please do so! then maybe i will change my of thinking. the sientific community almost daily is proving that God exist! i don’t need them to do that because i know that He does.it is your choice to belive or not to.God gives everyone that choice called free will. you won’t truly be happy until you accept that fact & do something about it.
@Jim: If the scientists are proving daily that god exists, then you should have no trouble citing these proofs. Where are they?
I am a Christian and I started an online financial lifestyle magazine that uses the bible as the foundation to show the principles used to achieve financial success are all derived from the bible.
So, please check it out and provide feedback.
Jim i agree with, the best part of being a Christian is it is a choice, you are not forced. With that being said, Jim, we don’t not have to prove anything. If you need to proof feel free to Google it, I’m sure you’ll find something. But if you have serious questions about Christianity, I would be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability.