Why Religion is an Important Part of Personal Finance
Published on - July 15th, 2007 (Modified on - July 17th, 2007) (by J.D. Roth) This is a guest-post from Free Money Finance. J.D. is on vacation in Europe.
This guest-post has had some very passionate comments. I felt it appropriate to reference J.D’s thought on the matter included in this article “I’ve intentionally kept my political and religious leanings obscure at Get Rich Slowly — they have no bearing on personal finance.” However, FreeMoneyFinance disagrees and took time out from their very busy schedule to post a very lengthy and well-written guest article with a counter-viewpoint. –jerichohill(admining while JD is away)
Recently J.D. and I were emailing back and forth discussing a possible guest post on the topic of religion and money. 
I cover the issue every Sunday on my blog and I tossed out several ideas I thought were worthwhile. Then J.D. said something that decided the issue. He wrote: “I’ve intentionally kept my political and religious leanings obscure at Get Rich Slowly — they have no bearing on personal finance.”
Ahhh, but they do — or at least the religious leanings do. (I’d argue that political leanings probably do too, but that’s for a different post by a more-qualified blogger.) So I’d like to discuss why I think a person’s religion should impact their finances. I’ll toss out a few of my thoughts on the issue, then let all of you chime in with your points-of-view in the comments.
I’ll start with a couple statements so you can get a sense for where I’m coming from:
- I’m a Christian and, as such, I have the most knowledge and experience on the various Christian viewpoints on money, how to handle it, on so on. My knowledge of other religions’ beliefs on money can at best be described as “limited,” so please forgive me if I make an inappropriate comment. It’s certainly not intentional.
- That said, I think my point-of-view on religion impacting personal finance is true for all religions — Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and so on. I think you’ll see why in a moment.
Now to the heart of the matter. Here’s my short and sweet position on why religious beliefs should impact finances:
Every religion has a set of principles detailing how a person should behave, worship God, treat others and the like. For each of these principles, a context could be (and most likely will be) experienced where money is injected into a situation that challenges a person to either follow or ignore these principles. In other words, how a person reacts with his money in a given situation often is fundamentally tied to whether or not he’s actually following his religious practices — it’s a visible, outside indication of his true belief in the principles of his religion. Therefore, it follows that our religious beliefs should significantly impact how we handle our finances.
How does this play out practically? Here are a couple generic suggestions that illustrate how religious beliefs should impact how money is handled:
- Almost every religion has some sort of principle that says we should treat our fellow man kindly. Furthermore, many religions go a step further and give specific instructions on how we should care for the poor and down-trodden in society. Does this have any implications on our personal finances? Of course. It impacts how we give to feed and clothe the poor, how much we give, to what organizations and the like. It even influences our reaction to a request from a homeless man for a handout or a request for a donation from a foodbank. Taking it back a step further, it even suggests how we budget our money — being sure we set aside enough to help care for the needy.
- Almost every religion has some sort of principle that includes the worship of (and service to) God, Jesus, nature or some higher being or principle. Many religions advocate that we worship God in many ways — through our actions, in song, in prayer, and even through our money. For instance, the Jewish religion has long had the principle of the tithe — giving the first 10% of a person’s income as an act of worship to God. Many Christians practice this principle as well, though several advocate a more general principle of “generous giving” over the tithe. But in any case, doesn’t it make sense that if we’re commanded to worship and serve God that we’d worship and serve him in all ways — including with our money? Certainly this would impact how we handle our personal finances in many ways.
Now let me be a bit more specific. Here are some examples from the Old and New Testaments that impact various aspects of how we should handle or personal finances. Some are commands and some are general principles, but they all influence how we should handle our money:
- Saving: Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. Proverbs 6:6-8
- Diversification of investments: Give portions to seven, yes to eight, for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land. Ecclesiastes 11:2
- Controlling greed: Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” Luke 12:15
- Borrow carefully: The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. Proverbs 22:7
- Being generous: You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 2 Corinthians 9:7-12
- Helping the poor: He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done. Proverbs 19:17
- More on helping the poor: If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 1 John 3:17
- Giving: Just as you excel in everything — in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us — see that you also excel in this grace of giving. 2 Corinthians 8:7
I could go on and on (there are hundreds of verses in the Bible on how to handle money), but I think you get the point.
It’s a deep subject and I’ve only skimmed the surface, but we can consider the conversation now started. Please add your own thoughts in the comments below. I’ll try to stop in now and then to comment myself and see how the discussion is progressing.
Thanks, FMF, for tackling this subject. Folks, I generally eschew religion and politics at this site, so if you’ve been wanting to discuss issues of spirituality and finance, now’s the time to do it. You can read more about the Bible and money every Sunday at Free Money Finance.
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Just for fun, I’ll repeat that this whole blogged conversation is a wonderful and exciting (to me) example of how fed up we are with religion taking the moral high ground. This could actually be a poll that represents in a real natural sense what the real moral majority of this world feels about what has been done to human beings in the name of religion.
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Hello All,
I have never commented on this blog before, so here goes:
1. I enjoy reading this blog.
2. I thought it was nice of the blog author to line up guest writers for his break, as some blogs I read do not do so.
3. I thought it very nice of the blog author to line up authors that have perhaps, a different viewpoint than his own.
4. I am a Buddhist, (not relevant, but perhaps of mild interest to some). I was not offended by the post as I viewed it as the opinion of the author of the post and in no way meant as an insult to me.
5. I found the “take away message” to really be about making sure that your handling of money lines up with your belief adn/or value system, which I can not argue with at all.
Thank you and I hope all have a great day.
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I am sure that the author of this post was not trying to be insulting. However, I think that the poorly chosen title and the lack of any consideration for the atheist/agnostic view has alienated many regular readers (myself included).
That said, I certainly won’t stop reading this blog because of this post. It’s simply one person’s view. I don’t happen to agree with it, but that’s OK. As Penn Jillette would say, it’s all a part of “the marketplace of ideas.”
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@Rhbee
I don’t know. I think what we’re seeing here may be more a cultural issue than a world view. We here in Western cultures are for the most part(regardless of personal belief system) familiar with Christianity and it’s various aspects. I’m not saying everyone believes in it of course, just that it’s the most familiar and present religion to “Westerners” which I assume is the majority of readers here.
I imagine if this article had been about “Buddhism & Finances”, “Hinduism & Finances”, or something along those lines, the reaction and conversation would likely be very different. Not to say there wouldn’t be disagreements or debate, just that it would be different since most of us are not as familiar with those belief systems as we are with the one used in the post.
How’s that old quote go, “Familiarity breeds contempt.” Or something like that.
Anyway, the comments here have certainly been interesting in their own right, that’s for sure!
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@Jon:
I agree completely. Well stated. Many of us found THIS post to be disagreeable. Thats no reason to stop reading GRS. Especially considering it was a guest post.
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“I’m a Christian and, as such, I have the most knowledge and experience on the various Christian viewpoints on money…”
I don’t think you’re entitled to this premise. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and it no more qualifies me to say how I think Mormon or Baptist school life would be than anything else.
Also, as a fellow Agnostic I think the Agnostic/Atheist crowd needs to lighten up a bit.
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This post is entirely nuts.
Premise #1: Author has religion
Premise #2: Author likes personal finance
Result: Author thinks it would be kinda neat if #1 could be tied into #2.
Result as contrasted with reality:
By viewing someone’s finance habits, there is almost no way you would be able to discern people who believe in supernaturalism from those who do not. Investing, for the most part, is a place where rationality and self-control rules the day.
Sounds like the author just has a really weird lens through which he’d like to view different ‘types’ of people.
Challenge to the author: given a bunch of bank/brokerage accounts without names attached, would you be able to identify the non-theists vs Jews vs Buddhists vs Christians? (Answer: duh, of course not).
Yet another way that religion simply does not intersect with the real, actual world.
(Unless you take the bible literally, in which case you subsist on very little and give all to your brothers in humankind)
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Sean, what’s so ironic about this post is that I’m almost positive J.D. himself is an atheist. This post could have been imagined along these lines instead:
Premise #1: Author has NO religion.
Premise #2: Author likes personal finance.
Result: Author thinks it would be kinda neat if #1 could be tied into #2. And of course the super interesting thing is that #1 now really DOES tie into #2. Strong arguments can actually be made from this premise. Here is an example from The Church of Reality(http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/):
“People of faith are more easily scammed than Realists. That’s because their religion requires the suppression of critical thinking. This makes them vulnerable to scams by people who are in their faith based circle or people pretending to be in their circle.”
I think a good argument could also be made that Christians might not prepare as much as they should for their retirement because they figure that “the lord will provide” for them or some insanity.
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>I just don’t get why someone saying you
> believe in SOMETHING even if you don’t
> believe in any god or religion is offensive.
The problem is the confusion of belief (as epistemology) with the colloquial term “belief” which means cognitive content or predictive expectation. The words do not represent the same thing.
Consider the following:
All lemons are yellow.
My car is a lemon.
Therefore my car is yellow.
Words are symbols. The meaning of those symbols is important. If you start switching meanings while using the same symbol, the argument is invalid.
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Man, I haven’t seen so much rile and ruckus since the Great Debate of Term vs. Whole-Life back in the winter of ’05!
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Covert7 — hahaha!!!! Of course, you always want to get Term
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Be careful Dave… Tossing insurance controversy into this hornets nest is liable to break the inter-tubes!
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Let’s get the introductions out of the way. I don’t go to church. I’m not religious. I don’t tithe or regularly give to charity. Having said all of that, I cannot understand the animosity spewed to the guest blogger and the people who tend to agree with his point of view.
Had this man stated, with no reference to religion, that his principles are to be a good steward of his money by saving regularly, diversifying his portfolio and monitoring his use of credit all while giving regularly to charity, the negative posters would have been singing his praises, so to speak. Because he did state all of the above and indicated that they are derived from some of the tenets of his Christian point of view, he is taken to task.
For those posters who are selfishly proclaiming offense where none was intended, you are straw men. You exaggerated this author’s point of view to degrade his beliefs and spout your own. You charged that his value system has caused such harm to society it has no place on this blog yet you are free to record your strongly held points of view which are laced with insults to the author and potentially a great many readers. You are hypocrites. You did what you claim his religion does to our society. You took an opportunity to beat someone up because you do not agree with him.
I’m glad this article was posted. It may not have taught me anything about personal finance that I didn’t already know but it did offer a much needed reminder that the “truly enlightened” among us are some of the most closed-minded people I have ever seen.
Ron
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Wow! What a debate. FMF and JD I am with you guys, I appreciate what you do!!
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Mike H. — you said in post #95, “I DO believe the Bible is truth (not ‘poo-poo’), and as such seek to follow God’s teaching faithfully.” Fair enough. I’m curious, though, do you follow this teaching from 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
“Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
The Bible is very clear here and has commanded you to follow this teaching. However, I can tell from your post that you are a normal, intelligent human being. You will have come up w/ a rationalization (I hope) as to why you don’t follow this particular verse or why it doesn’t apply anymore or whatever. You see, my friend, you are really an atheist, too, if you would just be honest with yourself.
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At my blog, I write about everything that strikes my mind/heart as worthwhile. Money, personal productivity, philosophy, and most of all, Chess. Oh, and Religion. I am just replying to the debate J.D. had with FMF about including religion in the post. I guess because I don’t cater to many people’s feelings, I don’t worry about what they will think about my religious views. I guess, in a way, people out to embrace you for who you are… your financial knowledge, you family, your friends, and your values. Whatever makes you the person you are. I take it that religion is a major part of J.D. and surely that of FMF. When people are reading your “thoughts”/expertise/observations, they must know that they are not just reading words. They are reading a whole person who has tried to sum himself up in a post. (I think).
Some people look at religion as the soil, that has to be dug out, before you get to the gold or diamonds. They would prefer not to mix the two. Others look at religion as a postmark or some decoration – that says what lies underneath is of great value…
If you don’t like religion, you can still benefit from the wisdom that is buried in it.
That’s my move 1.e4!
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I, too, agree that many of the people posting here are attacking the poor guest poster and his belief system. Only the argument/logic should be up for debate.
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Thank you, I found your website because of this one post and I am going to subscribe. I looked around, saw that I can learn a lot and I will be back.
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OK OK, enough with those who are just poking at Christian-nests with sticks in this thread (Dave
. That is pointless and just gets people riled up.
Ron, let’s not confuse “challenging some internet horse-hocky” with “animosity”. I doubt there’s a lot of animosity behind these posts. Let’s not feed into the “persecuted majority” myth that some people have.
Let’s get real here. Responding to a blog post in comments, without using ad hominem attacks or other defamation, in a way that is topical to the post (ie, personal finance), or addresses the assertions made in the post, is totally normal, agreed upon, and (honestly, from most conversations I’ve seen) polite here. If everyone keeps their cool and doesn’t play the persecution card, the thread can live out its useful life without any pointless flamewars.
Nobody’s mind is going to be changed by anything in a blog argument (IMHO). To see out of the veil of religious belief requires time, experience, and personal study, in my experience.
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One more comment, after re-reading the initial post: Really, lighten up people. Get Rich Slowly is a variety blog. It’s not the Financial Times, it’s more like Readers Digest, or USA Today. There are occasionally some meaty topics, but there is also a fair bit of fluff/inanity.
The main point is to get people THINKING about personal finance. If someone is facing challenges in this regard, and the only way to get to them is through his or her paranormal beliefs, then so be it!
Cheers to G.R.S. blog and community.
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Does anyone have any solid statistics on the average wealth of Christians v. Atheists, or the religions of the world’s wealthiest citizens and their charitable habits?
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JD,
I hope you are not experiencing too much grief by letting this post run while you were gone. You took a big risk to be open-minded with an unpopular point-of-view.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings. Part of me is saddened because as I scroll down the comments, I see a trail of people who have had experiences with “religion” so bitter, that they have had intensely strong reactions only at the mention of it.
Anyway, I agree with FMF that that “religion” does have much to do with personal finance, but I would not use the term “religion”. I think “worldview” may be more appropriate, since not everyone claims a religion, but you cannot escape having a worldview.
Your worldview shapes what value you assign to a dollar, and what value you assign to the things you will trade that dollar for.
I would be interested in reading more posts like this, but from other points of view (i.e., not Judeo-Christian).
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I think the cat was testing the mice to see if they really do play while he is away.
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Ron, post 113, said
‘For those posters who are selfishly proclaiming offense where none was intended, you are straw men. You exaggerated this author’s point of view to degrade his beliefs and spout your own. You charged that his value system has caused such harm to society it has no place on this blog yet you are free to record your strongly held points of view which are laced with insults to the author and potentially a great many readers. You are hypocrites. You did what you claim his religion does to our society. You took an opportunity to beat someone up because you do not agree with him.
I’m glad this article was posted. It may not have taught me anything about personal finance that I didn’t already know but it did offer a much needed reminder that the “truly enlightened” among us are some of the most closed-minded people I have ever seen.’
No religion is free from criticism. He published his views on a public forum, asked for people to respond to his views, and that is what he got.
The fact that people strongly disagree with his statement about ‘why religion is important to PF’, or his views that ‘our religious beliefs should significantly impact how we handle or finances’ or his ‘examples from the Old and New Testaments that impact various aspects of how we should handle or personal finances’ or how he provides some ‘generic suggestions that illustrate how religious beliefs should impact how money is handled’ does not mean that people are being mean and nasty to the poor, set-upon author.
The tone of the article was rather preachy, with an automatic assumption in the article that the author’s point of view is obviously right, and that the bible (a book not everyone believes was written by people touched by god) provides the answer to sound financial management.
Your argument that people who disagree with the author are ‘free to record your strongly held views’ that a post like that shouldn’t be on this blog, even though our views may cause offence to some people, doesn’t make any sense. The author was free to post his article on the blog itself, something most of us are unable to do, and he didn’t take awareness that his strongly held views may cause offense among those who disagree with him. Just because you are unable to see any offence in the article doesn’t really matter.
It does seem that you’re getting upset that so many people have responded negatively to the article have pointed out some inherent flaws in the argument for religion (which does have a bearing, because if you’re going to quote the bible, surely people are free to quote alternative biblical quotes back, especially if they expose contradictions). He asked for a debate on his views, and that is what he got.
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Sean,
I think a poster calling the author a “moron” falls within the realm of anamosity. As is comparing what this man believes to Santa Claus or other mythical characters.
The author called for a principled debate about the connection between personal finance and religion. In general, he got attacked because of his particular religion. Had the author chosen another backdrop to color his comments instead of Christianity I doubt the responses would have been so personally debasing. What’s more, your statement that defending against this is feeding into the “persecuted majority myth” is akin to saying “shut up and take it”.
Tom: “Taking offense” to another man’s opinion has become a national pastime in this country. Really, are you in any way affected that the author may use the Bible as guide to living his life? I’m not. I couldn’t care less. There was nothing offensive about this article. He did not fail to show regard to others by posting it. He stated his opinion and asked for debate. He received some of that and much more.
And it is hypocritcal for responders to state this type of article should not be posted while they opine the opposite point of view.
I agree people should be allowed to show the contradictions of organized religion. I could point out many inconsistencies present in the Bible, more than were cited here. I am not “upset” that negative posts pointed out flaws in the author’s religous views. I don’t care about his religous views. They are not mine, they’re his. My point was and is that the author asked for a debate regarding religious practices and PF not the the accuracy of the Christian belief. I am curious as to what drives men and women in handling their money so from that point of view I found the article interesting. What caused me to post a comment was not a desire to defend the Christian religion. Let those that practice it do that. I would simply like to read other perspectives without the personal insults.
Ron
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let’s all put this into perspective, because I am really tired of people characterizing this discussion as “bashing” or somehow out of control or uncivilized.
there are currently 125 comments in this thread. of the 125, only 12 (10, 18, 27, 46, 54, 60, 65, 85, 87, 35, 36, 113) could be considered “negative”, mocking or confrontational. of those 12, 3 (18, 29, 46) are merely disrespectful. and only 4 comments (10, 35, 36, 113) out of this entire thread of 125 actually contain personal attacks. most of which are mild, and only one of them (comment 10) is truly harsh, and should probably have been deleted:
So which of the wealthy electronic ministers who regularly fleece the flock do you really want to be? Nice description of chinese menu christianity you wrote. What ever fit your argument you used. What ever did not, you ignored.
You are a moron.
contrast that with the 29 comments (33, 38, 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 47, 60, 71, 80, 81, 83, 87, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98, 106, 110, 112, 113, 117, 119, 120, 122, 124, 125) that characterize this discussion as out of hand, and you will rapidly see that the claims of negativity and harshness are simply hype and overreaction. in fact, people here have been remarkably civilized in discussing a very controversial topic. let’s recognize that and stop making false claims of incivility. it’s inaccurate and even disingenuous to do so.
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Mave,
Thank you for putting these posts in perspective for me. Until you did so, I did not know what I thought or what camp I was in.
I noted you did not list any of your posts in a category so you must be the only poster who is not saying anything controversial, negative or filled with hyperbole, right?
Right.
You find the post “incredibly offensive and presumptive” and “insulting”. (Comment #17). Really? Was it really all that? Please.
Or how about “…religious people are so used to having a free pass and not having to actually back up their assertions that when people take a questioning or critical stance toward religion, they immediately get labeled as vicious attackers.” (Comment #90). I don’t think anyone has called you or anyone else a “vicious attacker” literally or in any connotation. Such sensitivity is really over the top.
And just so you understand that I’m not trying to argue every point to death, I agree with most of your statement in Comment #41 and felt it was one of the few on topic responses.
Ron
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ron – your comments have been among the most inflammatory, so enough said.
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I’ve long felt that people hear/read/see what they want, and this adds another piece of evidence.
I’ve re-read the post 3 times, I can’t see where it says that aethiests don’t have morals. Or where it is trying to exclude all views except the Christian view. But there are those who are hyper sensitive to that sentiment, and see it there.
To me it just says “A persons beliefs affects their choices.” Well, duh.
As a side note, Thomas in comment 20 suggests that Leviticus prevents Christians from collecting interests. He missed the sentence prior: “If thy brother be impoverished, and weak of hand…”
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Interesting guest article. As an atheist myself I found a few points in common with it based on my own moral code in general and specifically with giving to those in more need than myself REGARDLESS OF RELIGION.
With that being said, I’m probably the most lazy atheist in the world… I don’t go to meetings, I’m not a freethinker, I don’t try to point out what I feel is wrong with religion to others, I refuse to debate, everyone has given up on “saving me” and I’m not even getting off the couch much less “looking” for Jesus.
So that got me thinking… am I the ULTIMATE ATHEIST? I’m so into non-believing that I can’t even believe I’ll make an impact on someone else. Yep… seems to be the case. I’m the best atheist there is!
Seriously folks, its just a guest column so there is no need to go crazy over it. Really, its just too much work!
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Whew, I take the afternoon off to sit in the sun and read Bangkok Haunts and when I come back to check the mail one whole page of my inbox is full. So first let me say that anyone who would quit this blog after this just doesn’t deserve to be here. Second, the posts may have grown harsh at times but I took that as being more intensity than anger. Third, it’s great to have a full and rounded discussion of this and any other meaningful topic in a world so media dominated that we seem to always be getting some sort of slanted point of view, and finally thanks to the moderator for letting us go on and trusting us to speak our minds civilly.
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Yeah, I ‘d really like to thank FMF for posting this because I learned something about myself in the process, which is that I spend WAY too much time focusing on the unreal. This message from the Church of Reality really sums it up for me:
“So I say to all Atheists reading this, why waste your life focusing on what isn’t real when you can focus on what is real? Christians and Atheists are alike in that they both focus on a fictional God. One asserts that God does exist, the other asserts that God doesn’t. Realists don’t focus on God. God is a waste of time. God is irrelevant. Reality is relevant.”
Amen.
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Unless there is more substance to be added other than a back and forth between atheists and non-atheists amounting to “4 legs good! 2 legs bad!”, lets just move on.
Thanks.
JH
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Thats a response to comments posted and some comments that were filthy enough not to get posted. Let’s keep the 4 letter words to a minimum m’kay?
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[...] Sunday, the Personal Finance blogosphere went into a tizzy over a guest post at Get Rich Slowly, a popular blog written by J.D. The guest blogger, from Free Money Finance (FMF) wrote about why he [...]
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I am an atheist subscriber to both GRS and FMF. I tend to skip over the religious-themed posts at FMF, but enjoy the blog generally. I didn’t read this guest post as accusing atheists of immorality, but rather as pointing out that the finances of a religious person are influenced by the religion. I’m surprised this is even controversial.
Imagine a Muslim blogger who kept silent about his religion. Wouldn’t you wonder why he had chosen to buy his house outright and invest only in stocks, no bonds? Knowing his religious reasons for doing so would help you understand that decision and realize that it may not be the best choice for you from a purely financial standpoint. Or, as Tom Cort mentioned in comment #21, imagine a PF blogger choosing not to invest in lucrative vice funds for religious reasons. (I’m really disappointed that there was only one response to maybe the only probing question among these comments, and I hope that response, #47, does not reflect the consensus among Christians on the subject of sin.) Also, while certainly giving to charity is not exclusive to religious people, I doubt most people look to 10% as a lodestar unless they have religious motivations to do so, and regardless, religion affects where your money is donated–a Catholic might be excommunicated for donating to NARAL, for example.
So I do think that there are instances in which religious beliefs can profoundly affect what you do with your money, and in those circumstances, it’s appropriate for the blogger to disclose the reasons (and maybe even irresponsible not to). That’s not to say that all personal finance is rooted in religion, and where it is not, there’s no need to bring in a discussion of religion. I have a feeling that J.D. is more in the former camp and that’s why he doesn’t discuss religion at GRS.
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I am an atheist. I don’t derive my beliefs from a magic book or some mystic god, but I do have beliefs.
IMHO, I am a much more moral person than 99% of “believers ( of any type)” and my belief system is more consistent, fair, and rational.
When we ( atheists) do things like help the poor, we usually do it out of genuine concern, and we don’t fly some flag that says “brought to you by an atheist.”
That said, I generally see religious charities,religious humanitarians, and churches,etc as a POSITIVE- especially when compared to the use of Government force.
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doesn’t his just represent the prime example of why people think money, religion, and politics are taboo topics for discussion?
i’m not a believer:
in religion, in non-religion, in not talking about money, religion, or politics.
i’m a believer:
in that it doesn’t matter what you believe in. people want some reason for doing things and purpose for living. maybe it’s a rabbit’s foot (although the rabbit wasn’t so lucky), a ritual, an idol, an icon, etc.
and for all the Atheists out there. If you call yourself an atheist, you are in fact clumping yourself into a religious group of Atheists. religion is about some sort of conformity.
at any rate, i’m a non believer, but seeing how some friends and parents have changed their financial life after going to church makes me wonder. the bottom line is that whatever it takes for a person to be at peace with who they are, where they want to go, and how they want to get there is important thing.
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tim:
and for all the Atheists out there. If you call yourself an atheist, you are in fact clumping yourself into a religious group of Atheists. religion is about some sort of conformity.
if you are going to broaden the definitions of words to such an absurd degree as to render them basically meaningless, I guess that’s your choice. but religion does not mean conformity any more than atheism means religion. atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god or gods. as a “non believer”, you are an atheist whether you feel comfortable calling yourself that or not.
in the immortal words of don hirschberg, “calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color”.
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Tim,
Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Brought to you by Dictionary.com
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Since there hasn’t been much discussion about Jews, I’ll throw my hat in the ring.
I’m Jewish and I keep the Sabbath. Here are some ways my religion affects my personal finance…
1) I need two sets of dishes for everything. Three for some. And another two sets for Passover.
2) I need to live in a neighborhood with an Orthodox synagogue within walking distance. That limits me to places with an observant Jewish community, which tend to be city-based and therefore more expensive.
3) Kosher food is nearly always more expensive than non-kosher food. Grocery bill, higher.
4) Because I don’t work on the Sabbath, I don’t spend money on anything, but I need to leave some of the lights on in my house and my oven on low.
5) In order to give my kids a decent Jewish education, private day school is most likely a necessity.
6) I need to take days off of work for Jewish holidays — 6 days in the Spring, 7 days in the fall.
All of these things cost me money. Therefore, my religion affects my personal finance. I have to factor in these costs to my life.
No wonder Jews become lawyers and doctors …
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[...] My reply to FMF’s guest post over on Get Rich Slowly about Personal Finance and Faith. [...]
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While the various points here are interesting, it continues to amaze me as to me how far off topic the comments on this post have drifted.
I think the main point here is that belief regardless of what that is effects your decisions and views on things. Personal Finance included. Most of my personal finance decisions are far less relate to math than they are about my family, who we are, our risk tolerance, and what we believe.
Agreeing with JerichoHill…I am guessing there are far better sites for discussion of theology and apologetics than Get Rich Slowly. Guessing you might also get more more input and opinion from these sites as well.
@junger – Great write-up, learned a few things I didn’t know, thanks for sharing.
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Hooray for junger, who understood the reason for the post and was possibly the first post relevant to the question asked in the article! I thought your post was very interesting, and brought up a bunch of things I’d never thought of before.
No, I lie. Many of the posts by atheists and agnostics were sort-of on-topic, although it might have been clearer if they’d said, “I am not religious, so my religion plays no part in my personal finances.” Of course, they could choose to mentally substitute “ethical code” or “moral mores” for religion and I’m sure they’d have interesting things to say. For example, we’ve already seen that some atheists believe that it’s an important principle of living (if, perhaps, not entirely financially sound) to give to those who are in need, and we’ve seen that some don’t feel that that’s important.
Enough speculating about how other people’s beliefs/ethics/morals/rationals/irrationals/PC-word of the day influence their financial choices. Here are some ways that my religion affects mine.
I’m Mormon. No, I’m not polygamist, and I’m not interested in becoming so, either, thanks for asking.
For those who are going to bring up Utah having a high rate of bankruptcy and a fairly large number of pyramid and sucker scams, and use that to conclude that Mormonism must lead to suckerage, thanks for your concern. I have to say that that isn’t a result of any overt teaching of the church, as far as I know.
We’re taught a few important principles that relate to finance — things taught in our holy books (including the Bible, the Book of Mormon), and things taught by our modern prophets. Here are a short run-down of some, and how they affect my life. I don’t pretend that this is exhaustive.
1. Tithe: Ten percent to the Lord, straight up. Has an impact on the budget. Not that I really pay all that much attention to my budget, except to compare it to how I’m spending and get depressed.
2. Give generously to the needy: As possible, give to those who are hungry, homeless, etc. and help them to build/rebuild their lives in a way that they can becoming self-sufficient. Exact mechanisms for this are not prescribed. This principle makes me evaluate how much of what I have (or want) I really need. Should I buy an HDTV or help someone who got sick and can’t pay the rent? Nothing helps me keep the spending down better than thinking of people who don’t have anything.
3. Stay out of debt: This is one of the most commonly-heard financial teachings in the church, often with two exceptions: education and possibly housing. Consequently, I carry no debt other than my house.
4. Obtain as much education as possible: This is an important financial tool, since a college education has a big impact on earnings potential. (That’s not the only reason given for the principle, but it is one of them.) As a consequence, I got a Bachelors degree and a Masters, which have served me well.
5. Have kids: This affects my finances in three ways. First, when projecting finances, insurance needs, taxes, and so forth, several years ahead, I have to take into account the possibility of additional children coming along. (Three kids so far, and dang, they’re cute. Best investment I ever made.) Second, I have to save for the inevitable weddings and possibly help for college. Third, I have to teach them financial prudence. Though the oldest is four, I’m starting now, because I’m sure it’s a lot easier to get the concept across now than when they’re teenagers ignoring everything I say.
5. Don’t work on the Sabbath (with ox-in-the-mire exceptions for people like doctors): I don’t. My field largely doesn’t require this, thankfully, but this requirement had an influence on my choice of occupation.
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6. Learn to count…
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[...] the comments here, I see that FMF’s exploration of the Bible and money caused a ruckus. Folks, nearly every post between now and early August is from a guest author. [...]
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“or at least it was one of my favorite blogs until today. I find today’s post incredibly offensive and presumptive, and it really makes me question whether this is a blog I can continue to read, and a blogger I can continue to respect. ”
I hate when people write that, narrow mindless not religion is the problem. I realize that the anonymous nature of the internet makes it easy to make comments like that but if you apply that principal broadly you’d never read anything. Personally I find that focusing only on PF makes a blog boring and repetitive after a while. Guest bloggers add alot. I believe that to be a well rounded person regards of religious affiliation ones needs to read various points of view. I like fox news but I also read Truth Dig on a regular basis and you can’t get more opposite ends of the spectrum than those two.
My point of view as a Christian: I’ve had several long discussions with a friend regarding tithing, specifically the 10% rule. I often tease him that as a Pastor he has a vested interest in tithing as it pays his salary. But he made a comment that got me thinking. The general rule of thumb is 10% to Church and 10% to savings with the balance for spending. I said impossible! But if you think about giving tithe forces you to live within your means. Those who tithe regularly are those who manage their money well. If you can’t afford to tithe its because your not managing your money well.
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Maybe it is my location (Los Angeles), but I’ve become VERY uncomfortable with how many churches that are on television around here engage in what I call “pseudo-tithing.”
Pseudo-tithing is when a preacher (I can’t use the term pastor or minister with these people–I come from a family of pastors and ministers who feel they have been called to minister to the needs of the people in their congregation and take that calling very responsibly) calls upon members in the congregation to “tithe” “seed money.” The seed money is supposed to show G*d that we are serious about believing that all of our needs will be met. The story also goes that our seed money will be “returned” to us 10-fold.
To me, that goes against everything I learned growing up about what tithing is all about.
I learned that tithing is a way of giving thanks for all of the blessings (tangible and non-tangible) I have in my life. As such, I am to give to those organizations that are in alignment with my beliefs/values (such as the Mennonite Disaster Fund to help people rebuild their lives because I can’t be there in person to help them myself–note that sending money doesn’t absolve me from engaging in service myself…it is a stop-gap)
I learned that tithing doesn’t necessarily have to be monetary. In fact, giving my time to care for others is a blessing in itself.
I learned that I can learn a lot about myself based on how I feel about tithing. Am I too attached to the money? If I’m too attached, then I need to rethink how I am spending my money and where I am out of alignment with my values.
My value system that has been shaped by my faith, gleaned from studying many religions, has brought me to the place where I want to be financially comfortable so that I can serve others without worrying about paying the bills.
Currently, I get paid for being of service to others (much like doctors and lawyers, do), but my intention is to pay off all of my bills and live a frugal life so that I can drop everything, if need be, so that I can help those who’ve encountered a disaster. Even if it is just to hold the babies so the mother can get some rest.
THAT is how my “religion” impacts my personal finance.
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PS: I want to make it clear that my own value system has been shaped by explorations of the teachings from many religious traditions. That is not meant to imply that my value system’s creation is any better than anyone else’s, it is just the path that it took because of my upbringing.
The question was how does one’s religious beliefs impact their personal finance decisions and that was all I was trying to answer.
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This entire post is offensive to atheists. Please be more considerate in the future.
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