This guest post is from Nickel, author of Raising4Boys.com and FiveCentNickel.
I recently received an e-mail from a reader asking about the “real” cost of raising kids. In short, she’s heard a lot about the high cost of raising kids, and was wondering if it’s really as bad as people make it out to be. More than anything, this question seemed to have been born out of angst over what it takes to be financially “ready” to start a family.
To be honest, I’ve never really kept tabs on exactly how much having kids has added to our expenses. My wife and I are, however, in the relatively unique position of having four kids (all boys). Thus, I thought I’d share some insights gleaned from our experiences with starting a family on a shoestring.
First, a bit of background so you’ll have an idea of where I’m coming from…
We had Son #1 (currently nine years old) when I was in graduate school and my wife was working full time. We never really considered daycare to be an option so, when he was born, my wife scaled back to half-time and we made do on her half-time salary (plus benefits) and my stipend. That meant roughly $27k in gross income and splitting shifts such that one of us was available to care for our son at all times. My wife worked early mornings while I was at home, and then shortly before lunch we swapped out so I could do my thing while she was at home. I came home late in the evening, and the next day we would start all over again.
After graduate school, we moved, I took a new job, and we added Sons #2 and #3 (currently seven and five years old). During that time, my salary was in the $25k-$35k
range and my wife started staying home full time, which she still does to this day. While we weren’t making much more than our previous combined income, we felt like we were living large because we could afford to have her stay home full time.
After about three years, I was offered a job that represented a big professional step forward and which also roughly doubled my income. We moved, bought a house, and not too long thereafter we added Son #4 (currently two years old). Finally, a bit over a year ago, we moved yet again. Once again, this was a totally voluntary move that resulted in a new (and better) job along with a nearly 50% raise.
As you can see, we’ve faced fewer and fewer financial constraints over the years. In fact, we now have our feet squarely beneath us, and are in a position to face pretty much whatever comes our way. Nonetheless, things were very tight when we first decided to start a family. So… How did we make this all work, especially back in the early days?
We kept our living expenses really low. Perhaps the biggest thing we did in this vein was to live in university-owned family housing when we were just starting our family. It was no great shakes, but… Where some some people saw tiny apartments with cinderblock walls, we saw home. It was an incredibly convenient location on the edge of campus that allowed us to walk and/or bus to a lot of places, and since we didn’t have much space, we didn’t have to pay much to heat or cool it, and we also couldn’t buy a lot of extraneous stuff.
We avoided childcare. As I noted above, we never really considered childcare to be an option. This wasn’t really a financial decision, but it had a nice financial side effect… Since neither one of us was making very much money, putting our son in childcare would’ve been a major financial hit. While I realize that childcare is unavoidable in many cases, we were fortunate enough to be able to work around it. Sure, our non-overlapping work hours meant that my wife and I had to sacrifice in terms of time together, but we made it work.
We didn’t break our budget buying baby stuff. Rather, we combed the flea market and local garage sales for barely worn bargains. And no, we weren’t scraping the bottom of the barrel — this was nice stuff. Nicer, in fact, than we would’ve been able to buy if we had bought everything new. And since babies rarely wear things out, our flea-market finds later became hand-me-downs. In many cases, we threw down pocket change in return for nearly-new, high quality, name brand outfits that survived all four of our boys. We even found a barely used crib in the classified ads that served us well through all four kids, and which we were ultimately able to sell for nearly as much as we paid for it.
We minimized our medical expenses. When Son #1 was born, our health insurance provided a stipend for well-child care. The good news is that there was no deducibtle and no co-payments. The bad news was that it was a fairly limited amount of money, and once it was spent you were on your own for the rest of the year. There was more than enough to cover the regular well-baby appointments, but vaccinations were an entirely different ballgame. Had we opted to have our son vaccinated by the pediatrician, we would’ve blown through our well-child funds in no time. Instead, we got the orders from the pediatrician and then headed for the county health department. The beauty of the health department was that they offered a veritable buffet of vaccines for one low price. For $20 you could get all the shots you needed in a single visit.
We made smart choices when it came to routine baby expenses. For example, my wife breast fed all of our kids for at least a year. Not only does this save you a good bit of money on formula, but there are numerous health benefits, as well. And on those rare occasions where we needed to buy formula, we went with Parent’s Choice (the Wal-Mart brand, which is every bit as good as Similac and Enfamil). Similarly, we tried various brands and quickly came to realize that Sam’s Club diapers worked every bit as well as name brand diapers. Sure, there were stages that each of our kids went through where a generic diaper couldn’t “contain” them. But for the most part, the Sam’s version worked great and saved us a ton of money. Of course, we probably could’ve saved even more by using cloth diapers, but we didn’t have convenient laundry facilities, nor did we have the inclination to take it that far.
We steered clear of debt. Debt’s a funny thing in that it’s both a byproduct of and a contributor to living beyond your means. Since we lived a relatively frugal lifestyle early on (and continue to do so to a point), we were able to stay out of debt, and thus never faced the attendant finance charges, late fees, etc. In fact, aside from our mortgage, we’ve never carried any debt. How? Simple… If we couldn’t afford to pay for something, we didn’t buy it. Beyond the financial savings, this also saved us an awful lot of stress.
The bottom line here is that it is possible to start a family without breaking the bank. In fact, if you were to wait until you’re financially “ready” to have kids, complete with all the trappings that new parents often view as absolute necessities, you’d probably never start a family.
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When we start having children, I’ll likely choose to stay home over further advancing my career, which I’ve worked hard at achieving for several years. I’ll choose to raise children and create a loving home environment rather than have career satisfaction, nicer and more stuff, a bigger house, etc. For those of us who choose that path, it’s essential to make sacrifices and learn to be somewhat of a home economist – find ways to cut costs, learn how to make minor home repairs, make meals from scratch, etc. If you’re someone who’s really dedicated to that goal, it’s absolutely possible on one modest salary. Also, the possibility of a sole breadwinner’s death or disability shouldn’t force both partners to work outside the home; it should inspire them to get plenty of life and disability insurance, which is both affordable and a necessity. And choosing a responsible and moral person on whom you can depend as a spouse is a woman’s best way to retain security and her best defense against divorce. Finally, there may never be a “perfect” time to get pregnant, but some times certainly are better than others. There are simple ways to try to plan for having a family, such as getting rid of debt, reaching academic goals, getting set in a career and agreeing with your spouse on a standard of living before kids come along.
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Fascinating discussion. As another data point I’d like to add some to my post above. My wife is a Professional Engineer — she sat through an 8 hour exam to get a license to approve blueprints, etc. for construction and other civil engineering projects. She now has a complete home office and continues to do this work, a couple of hours at a time, on a 20 hour per week basis. She changed jobs during her maternity leave and actually earns more per hour PLUS benefits than she did at her prior job. I would say that she is well qualified to return to the workforce — should she ever choose to do so — and will be for some time to come.
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I’ve been a stay-at-home mother of four since my first baby was born (now ages 19, 17, 14 and 5). I have a college degree and worked as a teacher in a high-quality university-based daycare center before having children – that’s when I knew I wanted to stay home with my own kids. First, I love kids (or I wouldn’t have 4) and my family is my life passion – I’ve made it a wonderfully fulfilling, challenging and creative life choice. I can’t imagine staying in the working world just to have a back-up plan in case of divorce, when my life calling is at home.
Second, no matter how good the daycare provider is, no one will ever love your child as much as you do. Parenthood is the one job on the planet where the worker (parent) can’t be replaced by someone else. That said, I completely support a woman’s right to choose her destiny, including all the various work scenarios. Women won’t be free until all choices are respected, including full-time motherhood.
I don’t consider myself “dependent” on my husband – we work as a team. He earns the money, I keep it at home and manage our family and household. I understand that divorce can be financially devastating, but I refuse to live in fear of something that has very little probability of happening (we’ve been married 22 years and are having more fun than ever). Do people avoid flying because planes crash? We do have life insurance.
I’m not the only one at home – my husband is self-employed in a home office, and our kids are homeschooled (another option for high-quality education!). I could write a book about how frugality has helped us achieve our goals, but all that time together is also powerful – we have healthy relationships, a relaxed lifestyle and a zest for life. I would make all the same choices again.
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I agree with many of the posters here. It is a difficult issue that needs to be discussed in depth between couples, rather than choosing a short-term solution that may place the children at risk later.
I’ve been through a divorce and I can tell you that possession is 9/10th of the law. If you are facing a divorce, would you rather have $20,000 in your own retirement account that he has to sue you to get or would you rather have $20,000 in his account that you have to hire a lawyer to get a part of? Even if you live in a common law state what you get is not split 50/50. It’s what you negotiate or your lawyer does it for you. Either way, it will cost you money to get. Men get very clever when they are about to divorce too. They start to hide money, close accounts, and leave their wives high and dry even if they have kids! Some get nasty and trash an asset they have to give over so that it’s worthless. For sure, they will want you to take 50% of the debt, but when it comes to their assets, they will argue that you had nothing to do with their careers of 401Ks because you stayed home with the kids! And, a work history and good jobs are easier to get for young people than for old people with no skills.
The same goes for his death. Most men die much earlier than their spouses. If his assets are in his name only, you will spend a lot of money trying to get them and by then, you may have been forced to file for bankruptcy. Build up your own credit, your own bank account, your own work history, your own IRA, and that’s a bit more secure in the long run, because odds are as the women, you’ll end up with the kids who will be dependent on you to provide for them.
Personally, I think the poster with the engineer who is working part-time from home is the way to go. Set up a consulting or home business and make it profitable so that you always have your skills, in case something goes awry. And, set aside money in her retirement account too, not just his. This can be done through a bank.
I now have assets in my name, but there were times I thought I would go into bankruptcy. If I ever get remarried, I will insist on a prenuptial so that my child doesn’t get left penniless.
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> I’ve been through a divorce and I can tell
> you that possession is 9/10th of the law.
Okay, perhaps that’s so where you live. I’ll accept that. What I do absolutely recommend is that women who stay at home (or anyone who’s the lower income spouse, really, regardless of sex or work status) require that their spouse contribute 50% of retirement contributions to their account. Even though I’m in a solid marriage, my husband and I split contributions. This means we each have equal amounts in our retirement savings and that we maximize the tax savings. (It depends on who’s in the higher tax bracket each year.)
> Men get very clever when they are about to
> divorce too. They start to hide money,
> close accounts, and leave their wives high
> and dry even if they have kids!
Both partners should have access to all financial records. The key here is to keep financial matters open. You should know how much your spouse earns, when, what assets you each have, etc.
(As for trashing assets…women can do that too. But having access to financial records can help you prove that.)
> they will argue that you had nothing to do
> with their careers of 401Ks because you
> stayed home with the kids!
The law is on the at home partner’s side where I live.
> And, a work history and good jobs are
> easier to get for young people than for
> old people with no skills.
I’m not sure what this (above) means.
> If his assets are in his name only, you
> will spend a lot of money trying to get
> them and by then, you may have been forced
> to file for bankruptcy.
Each spouse should be set as the beneficiary so that these things don’t have to go through probate. A will and estate laws also help tremendously.
> Build up your own credit, your own bank
> account, your own work history, your own
> IRA
Absolutely. But many people have already done this before they have kids, nowadays.
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Both my wife and I are self employed. We make maybe $35-$45K between us a year, depending on the yearly fortunes and work (mostly, the wife does a craft market each Saturday) from home, with a 2 and a 4 year old.
While it can be difficult to juggle each of our work schedules, and the care of the kids, it works pretty well. The benefit to not having the kids in childcare is subjective, but we like having them watch us work and learn exactly where the money comes from, later they’ll contribute to our various businesses (such as helping at the weekly craft market).
We started off at a distinct financial disadvantage as we adopted both kids, but week to week they don’t seem to add much to our expenses as yet. The biggest hit, being self employed is health insurance. As others have said, thrift stores and yard sales have clothes, toys, etc in beautiful condition for pennies on the dollar.
We know many people raising kids on very little income (think hippies and neo-luddites) and it is very doable, you just don’t have all the stuff people think they need to have. We live a lifestyle that is luxurious by their standards, at least.
If you’re frugal, you’ll bring that frugality to childrearing.
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People are making a lot of assumptions about Nickel’s wife and her skill set. Having met him, he’s a reasonable guy and from reading his PFblog, I think he’s very concerned about his wife and their ability to provide for everyone should one of them pass on. Nickel is a big advocate of CYA and getting proper life insurance.
I’m not thrilled about the mommy war going on in the comments, but I will tell you what I know from working in childcare for three years at a private school. I’m not actually advocating either position, just making some other points to consider.
1) Childcare is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. Very few people make enough to afford what it really costs to have supervised care for children until 6pm daily. Even doctors and lawyers have a tough time of it. Sure it may be worthwhile for them because of the difference between the hourly rate they pay out vs what they bill, but it still takes a bite, even for the highest bracket Americans.
2) Kids do better when an adult pays attention to them. Period. End of story. There is nothing like a full-time caregiver. Sure it doesn’t have to be a parent, but go back to point #1. Childcare is extremely expensive. If you really want a full-time caregiver, sometimes the most affordable option is for someone to stay at home rather than daycare, a nanny or au pair. Not everyone wants their mother to live in and take care of their kids for them. I sure don’t. My mom is terrible with kids. (Laugh. That’s supposed to be funny, though sadly it’s true. My mom is awful with kids.)
3) No really, kids do better when someone pays attention to them. It’s very hard in a caregiving environment to pay full attention to every child, even with a parent at home. This is why middle children often feel neglected. Even then, the problem of caring for a child doesn’t really go away with a stay at home parent. What this means is that the quality of parenting is just as important when interacting with children as WHO is interacting with them. I’ve seen some totally kick ass parents who put their kids in childcare, but they were 100% with their kids when it was time to be with them. Those parents were amazing people and so were their kids.
4) I’ve heard of the Feminine Mistake book and was intrigued by its proposition. I understand the argument, but perhaps that is a pre-marriage issue to be considered when selecting a spouse and how your future is planned. No one goes into marriage planning on how they are going to get out of it. (The pre-nup planning is disgustingly pessimistic, though not without merit for those with serious assets to protect.) At least I hope they wouldn’t. The Feminine Mistake seems to be a warning for women, but like a previous commenter says, this blog is about doing what works for you, and maybe not everyone needs to worry about financial catastrophe if they are taking care of business from the Day 1 when they meet their future spouse. I’m just putting that out there. For people with fears of abandonment or lack of financial resources, something tells me they should work on that issue and do what works for them, but not be frightened into doing something they don’t want to do just because there’s a book about it.
5) There is no dollar value on spending time with your children that will adequately assign it its true worth. Ever hear that song Cat’s Cradle? Well it’s true. You miss out on the magic moments with kids if you let other people take care of them for you.
6) If people really think Nickel’s wife is making a mistake by staying at home, why don’t they consider her time at home as an investment in her future when her sons will care for her should Nickel depart early (for whatever reason)?
I’m sure I’m going to get yelled at for my remarks, but I think everyone really has to decide for themselves about staying at home or not and the personal values they have that go beyond financial valuation of child rearing. Personally, I know people who did various combinations of staying at home and working and ultimately raising children isn’t about the money you forgo in lost income. It’s about raising children to be happy, capable adults. If financial stability without one spouse is that much of a concern, then shore up the situation!
There’s a ton of cautionary tales out there about divorcees dumped without any financial foundation. If women are that worried, they should delay marriage until they can bring their own money to the table that won’t be community property later in a divorce.
All in all, this was a really good post about starting a family with limited means. It really gives me confidence that I could do it alone if I wanted. (Not that I’m hankering to do this, but I’ve thought of it.)
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My wife and I are pregnant with our third. We are just as fortunate for her to be able to stay at home with our first two, aged 5 & 3. Our income is modest (in the mid 30′s). My wife saves us **TONS** of money by growing our vegetables for daily consumption, as well as canning them.
My wife makes our baby food by doing the following:
Home grown vegetables like green beans, sweet potatoes, etc are finely pureed in our blender. She then fills ice cube trays with the mixture and sets them until frozen. She removes them from the trays, and put in a baggie or other container. The ice cube tray size cubes are the perfect serving size for our little one and saves the rediculous cost of baby food from the store!!
just an idea!
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Hello. My 7/2 article (click name link) agrees with most of Nickel’s points, except I did not mention getting a new job that doubles your income as an option, but I did mention “single”-parenting, and also a child’s important tax effects on net income, which people often overlook. Thank you.
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mapgirl, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
A few additional details, some of which I’ve already alluded to in comments above… Our plans in the event of my wife’s or my own early demise are extensive (and possibly excessive), but you can’t be too careful.
As for getting access to your spouse’s assets before filing bankruptcy in the event that they pass on, a well-structured estate plan (complete with named beneficiaries for every asset) will take care of this.
And like I said above, everyone will need to make their own decision with regard to their comfort level with and trust in their spouse. It’s inaccurate to make a blanket statement about 50% divorce rates and use that brow beat people into living life in a certain way (note that I’m not saying anywhere here did that, but certain books/gurus have). It’s simply not a coin toss in each and every marriage. Some marriages have a much greater (near 100%) likelihood of failure from the get go, and others have a very, very low probability of failure. Again, people have to make their own choices when it comes to things like this. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.
As for childcare choices, my intention was never to get into a pissing match about this. Rather, in *our* case, we wanted someone to be home with the kids. Early on, my wife and I split these duties, with me staying home while she worked, and then her staying home while I did my thing. We later transitioned into her being home full time and me working full time. For this *we* feel fortunate. Others might not see it the same, way, and that’s their prerogative. And mapgirl’s right in that you get what you pay for when it comes to childcare. There’s no way we could’ve afforded an acceptable (to us) level of childcare given our financial situation at the time.
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@J: Heh. I wasn’t suggesting doubling your income as a strategy for starting a family (though it certainly wouldn’t hurt). Rather, I was trying to give people a sense for where we were we came from *before* the raises, promotions, etc. In fact, we already had three kids before any of that started happening. And I also wanted to head off people who might say: “Well, yeah, you can start a family before you’re financially totally ‘ready’ if you’re willing to be doomed to a life of poverty and frugality.”
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Childcare IS expensive, but it is doable. When a child is young and in diapers, its close to $10k/year. But after potty training, it gets much cheaper. Plus you can shop around to get better rates. I pay less than $5k/year now for a 4 year old. Luckily I only have one, I can’t imagine paying that for multiple children at a time. Though I’d hope you’d get some sort of group or bulk rate!
=)
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From Mapgirl #57:
“For people with fears of abandonment or lack of financial resources, something tells me they should work on that issue and do what works for them, but not be frightened into doing something they don’t want to do just because there’s a book about it.”
There isn’t just a book out about this topic. There are also facts. More mothers live without a partner than do. Every marriage has a 50% chance of failing due to divorce. To trivialize these matters is blithe and irresponsible. Divorce puts children at twice the risk of poverty than staying married. These are serious issues that shouldn’t be glossed over by saying “just do what’s right for you”. We lose that responsibility when we have children. Every mother should be able to care for herself and her children should their father have a mid-life crisis and leave.
#60 Fivecentnickel:
“It’s inaccurate to make a blanket statement about 50% divorce rates and use that brow beat people into living life in a certain way (note that I’m not saying anywhere here did that, but certain books/gurus have). It’s simply not a coin toss in each and every marriage. Some marriages have a much greater (near 100%) likelihood of failure from the get go, and others have a very, very low probability of failure.”
And how does one judge their own marriage’s chances of failure?? One would imagine that nearly 100% of marriages were started with the intention of ’till death do us part. That means 50% of married people are wrong. Everyone knows at least one perfect couple that didn’t make it. No marriage is 100%. Period. No one is brow-beating. We are simply stating the facts. Loudly.
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Stacey@: I agree that most marriages are started with the intention of ’til death do us part. But it’s important to keep in mind that that perception if formed leading up to the big day, whereas the sorts of decisions we’re talking about are typically made later (much later in some cases), after the reality of the situation has begun to sink in. While every marriage may have a 50% probability of ending in divorce *at the outset*, the odds change over time.
It’s just like life insurance. According to an actuary, you have a certain likelihood of living to (say) age 65 when you are 20. But when you are 30, the odds are different. Assuming you are still healthy, the odds have gone up. But if you’ve been diagnosed with cancer in the interim, the odds have gone down.
To say that every marriage has an equally likely chance of ending in divorce is fallacious. If your argument was that, at the outset, every marriage has an equally likely chance of failure, then I’d be more willing to buy your argument. But the odds at the outset aren’t what counts here. What’s important are the odds when you decide to start a family, stay at home with the kids, etc. And by then you can make a much more educated decision. Sure, it’s not 100%. Nothing ever is. But the point is that you need to weigh all available “evidence” and make the best decision for you and your family. In some cases, the best approach will be for both parents to work. In other cases, it will be best for the mom to stay home. And in yet others, it’s best for the dad to stay home (or both, as we did by splitting shifts at the outset).
Again, I would argue that individuals need to make their own, individual assessment of the situation rather than being fear mongered into one approach or another. There is no blanket answer here.
Would it help if I said it “loudly”?
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Stacey makes a good point about the probability of divorce. Things change over a lifetime and even marriages that start out good can crash and burn. You can’t always predict the future. I’ve been married for almost ten years and have 2 kids and we were together for five years before that. If you asked me two years ago I would have said we would never split up. Things have gotten pretty rough since then and we’re way closer to divorce than I ever imagined. That story linked earlier about the woman who had written for the New York Times was pretty chilling as well, to be surprised by divorce papers on your 40th wedding anniversary!!!
Some marriages do last a lifetime, I still hope mine will be one of them, but people who have a “It couldnt’ happen to us” attitude remind me of teenagers who drink and drive because they think they’re invulnerable.
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The mommy wars again. In our family the mommy works a full time professional job while my husband is the full time caregiver, and also works a couple days of week in the evening. The same argument can be made for him, that he is sacrificing his future money making ability by staying home with the kids. Some of these arguments are critical to the point of being disrespectful of others choices. We consider ourselves a partnership. It’s up to each couple to decide how the division of labor is going to work best for them. For us the benefits of the children having a full time parent home taking care of them, also someone who makes home cooked meals, cleans, is available for errands and doctor’s visits, is worth its weight in gold and saves us money/time in many other ways. There is no one right answer, everyone needs to figure out what works best for them. Regardless of who makes the money, there does needs to be transparancy of what money comes in, how it is spent and saved and decisions made jointly.
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fivecentnickel, the message of “prepare in the event of divorce of death” is more for women than for men. Men don’t have the same risks as women do in the event of divorce. Men’s incomes actually INCREASE after a few years, unlike the woman’s which decreases substantially and keeps going down (from divorce statistics). If a woman dies who stayed home, it doesn’t have the same impact economically on the family than if a man died who was the sole provider for many years. So, while it’s nice to hear your views, you are not at risk as far as I can tell.
It’s nice that you have a great marriage, but your wife could be put at a severe disadvantage should anything happen that you claim will never happen. And, if her children are still young when it happens (nobody gets to live forever), then she will face poverty.
All those years of saving the “family” money equate to her loss if things aren’t taken care of in writing and with assets under her name. I’m sure you love your wife enough to do this, but there are many men (and women) who don’t think about this until it’s too late. They only see “saving money” in the short-term. When you write a column about frugality and saving money, I understand it’s difficult to put in everything, but please take into account next time that your “blanket statement” that having a partner stay home and save money is the way to make ends meet with children may not be the best option in some cases.
I preferred staying home with my child and it does make a difference, I just don’t think people should risk the farm while doing it. I hope that if one person does decide to stay home that they put assets under that person’s name and stay married at least 10 years because that’s when that person can share in her husband’s social security benefits. If he dies before then, good luck.
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@Anon:
“When you write a column about frugality and saving money, I understand it’s difficult to put in everything, but please take into account next time that your “blanket statement” that having a partner stay home and save money is the way to make ends meet with children may not be the best option in some cases.”
I just went back and reread the article. I didn’t see anywhere in it the suggestion that in order to raise children cheaply one partner must stay home. Nickel never says that. What he does say is that they chose to have one partner stay home, that happened to have a financial benefit for them, and that it worked for THEM.
Have you ever read an article anywhere in which all of the points applied to everyone?
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@Anon: Thanks for responding. As I’ve already said, we have a well thought out estate plan, generous life insurance policies (the coverage on me is sufficient for my wife and kids to continue our present lifestyle without her having to go back to work, and the coverage on her would allow for a full time nanny for as long as we’d need one), and all of our savings/investments (except retirement accounts; see below), as well as our home, are held jointly.
When it comes to retirement accounts, our retirement savings that come through my job are in my name only because the IRS doesn’t allow joint ownership of retirement accounts. Moreoever, back before we could afford to fully fund both of our IRAs, we always funded hers first, sometimes leaving mine without contributions of any sort for the year. Since our work-related retirement plans were in my name, this just seemed like the right thing to do.
My wife is the sole beneficiary of everything, (and vice versa) and we have a testamentary trust (as well as guardianship) set up for the kids in case we both die. Where we live, she also has an equal claim to all of these assets if we were to ever divorce. Sure, one of us could hide (or trash) assets, but we won’t. And we’re both comfortable with that – again, you need to make this assessment for yourself.
We have also kept credit cards in both of our names (we are both authorized users on each other’s cards, but there have been rumblings that FICO scoring will start ignoring authorized users, so if you don’t have your own cards, you may not have a good credit history).
I also agree that blanket statements are a dangerous thing, which is why I reacted negatively to the notion that my wife staying home was a decision on her part — nobody can make that assessment without know all of the facts, yet many responded with matter-of-fact, know-it-all statements. I have said throughout that everyone needs to assess their own situation and make the best decision for them.
While I agree that all of the things you and others have brought up should be considered (and yes, we did consider them, although I didn’t have the space or foresight to include every last detail when putting this article together), statistics on the divorce rate, etc. are no more the be-all, end-all on this subject than are our own personal experiences as we started a family and somehow made this all work.
If you re-read what I wrote, you’ll not that I jumped into the money saving thing by saying “How did we make this all work, especially back in the early days?” (bold emphasis added) This piece a personal perspective on how it’s possible to start a family without breaking the bank, not a manifesto on how people should lead their lives.
As to your concerns about women vs. men, the issue is actually one of the stay-at-home parent vs. the working parent, regardless of gender. Yes, it’s more often the mom that stays home, but (as others have pointed out) stay at home dads are equally susceptible to many of the risks you have laid out for moms. Women can be just as vindictive as men in a nasty divorce, a man’s professional skill sets can become outdated just as quickly as a woman’s, etc., etc., etc. Granted, a woman may shoulder a greater burden in the wake of divorce if she gains custody of the kids, but even here that’s not an absolute. In many ways, this issue revolves around family roles moreso than gender. It’s just that gender is often correlated with “typical” family roles, such that people tend to use them interchangeably.
As an aside, if you’re curious about the finer points of many of these financial issues (as they pertain to us, anyway), I’ve written in fairly good detail about most of them over at FiveCentNickel.
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[...] How to Start a Family Without Breaking the Bank by Nickel (as a guest author) @ Get Rich Slowly. The way this post reads, Nickel must be responding to my earlier post: Think About Your Finances Before Having (More) Children. As I see it, you should either be prepared with money, or be prepared for the sacrifices (which you should do – not your kids) – in either case, you must think along these lines before you have more kids. [...]
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I’ve got a lot of friends who waited later to start families only to find fertility issues are huge and so I have a few friends who discovered what they say about still being able to have kids in your late 30s has only limited truth. I discovered the same thing for myself.
So, no kids for me because of waiting until too late.
I look at peers who didn’t wait and a lot aren’t making ends meet and I think will have tough retirements. I’m in BC and I think our economy is pretty bad for the 45 and under crowd, especially with kids. Coquitlam, where everyone moved in the 90s because of being able to afford a home there, was a net loser of families with kids and the number one reason why families were moving away was because they could not make ends meet. So, people were picking up their families and moving to where they’d have a 60-90 minute drive to work, or another province.
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Deborah, very good point. I wish people would understand and take seriously the fact that it often isn’t easy, simple or cheap to become pregnant in your late 30s and 40s. It may even be impossible. The notion that we must wait to have all our ducks (or bank accounts) in a row before having children is somewhat misleading. First, you’ll likely NEVER have all your ducks in a row and be totally ready to have children. Second, if you wait too long, it might just be too late. Of course, that’s not to say that some times aren’t better than others. But consider yourself warned.
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As a divorced mom(47) of 1 son(17), I can attest to the money issues. However, many women (including me) do it to themselves. When we stay home, do we make it our business to know where the money goes? What are the bills? Do we insist on being a full financial partner in our marriage? Not just a parent partner, social partner, love partner and sexual partner but also a financial partner. You can stay at home, care for and love your children and still protect yourself financially. In fact, it is your responsibility to protect yourself thereby protecting your children. Just like on the airplane when the stewardess says put the mask on yourself first and then your child. Insist on a Roth IRA contribution each year even if you don’t earn money. Even if you don’t physically write the check to pay the bills, know what money comes into and out of your lives. Know your credit score and protect it. But, I still believe that women can stay home with their children and protect themselves financially. We just need to be trained how to do it, accept the responsibility, insist on it, and follow through. If you can stay home and want to, do it. Use The Feminine Mistake” as a learning tool. She did not protect and care for herself financially every day and year of her marriage. She came from an age when she wasn’t supposed to have to. Thats what society told her. That age is dead. Just like corporations are discontinuing pensions expecting employees to be responsible for themselves, women in marriages must take financial responsibility for themselves. Failure to take personal financial responsibility is the mistake, not the decision to stay home with your children.
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My personal opinion on childcare ( much like others’ opinions on cloth diapers,etc) has little to do with money, and everything to do with family/upbringing.
My wife let me know in very certain terms that if we had a baby she would not even consider working for a minimum 2-3 years after her birth. “child care” was not an option. While I didn’t feel as strongly as she did, I pretty much agree. There is no way I could see dropping off a baby/infant at some daycare. I could see starting around the age of 3-4 going somewhere ( more like a SCHOOL than a daycare) for social development and other reasons,etc. But other than that, no thanks.
I will say that I realize this may not be an option for single parents. I had a single mom part of the way and my siblings did all the way ( dad died when I was 12 and they were babies). In this situation I consider it the admirable thing to do what you have to work and support your children, even if it means daycare.
However, if you are fortunate enough to have a 2 parent family it is more often a CHOICE to have both work and drop your kid off on someone else. Now you may think it is more important to be a “professional” or own 2 new cars, a big house, whatever. However, keep it in mind it is a choice. You decide to pursue those things at the expense of your children, IMHO. This applies to anyone with at least “average” earning power.
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I think your article was very interesting. There are certain things in it that I hadn’t considered before (my husband and I have chosen to be childfree, especially now as we pay down our debt).
But I feel like you have been blessed, and are on a completely different playing field than most of my friends who have children. Most of my friends who have kids have absolutely no money. They’re on WIC, they’re on food stamps, they have debt up to their eyeballs.
Most grad students don’t have spouses who have a part time pay of $27,000. That’s where your blessing came in. Most of the grad students I know have very little to no money coming in while their spouses stay home full-time with the children.
While I think this article is fantastic, it’s definitely not geared to the usual grad student or young married couple starting out. Heck, it’s not even geared to anyone who has any kind of debt.
But, it was your choice, and you did have the means to start a family – most people don’t have the means to do so. Right now, my husband and I don’t want to add hospital bills (even though we have fantastic insurance there are still going to be bills from labor and delivery) or anything else to my debt right now until I can get some of it paid off.
I too would want to be a stay at home mom, but my current salary is needed by our family just to pay rent every month (and we’re living in the cheapest housing in our city – at least the cheapest in a safe neighborhood). If I quit work we’d be in some serious financial straits.
Congratulations on the blessings you have! I hope you will continue sharing what has helped you stay debt free with a family of six.
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wendidm: Just to clarify, that $27k income during graduate school was my wife and I combined (it was about half her income and half my stipend). I would thus argue that there our situation wasn’t particularly unique. Sure, we were better off than some grad students, but worse off than many others.
And while you say what I’ve written isn’t geared to people who have debt, you’re missing the larger point… We didn’t have debt in large part because of the decisions that we made. We intentionally avoided buying things we truly couldn’t afford. And that had a two-fold benefit — it kept us out of debt, and being out of debt kept our expenses down. If you slip into debt, it can become a vicious cycle of spending money on interest, fees, etc. which causes you to fall short on money for everyday living expenses, which leads to more debt, and so on. This is why I made a point of including that in the article. Had we incurred a pile of debt early on (perhaps before we even started having kids) it could’ve gotten ugly.
While I know that there are a lot of people out there that truly can’t afford to have kids, my article was largely motivated by the great many others that think they can’t afford it even though they’re in a much better financial situation than we were when we started our family. For people in that situation, I would have to say that it’s all about choices… Kids don’t have to decimate your finances. Are there expenses associated with raising kids? Sure. But if you’re careful, you can minimize them. No, this doesn’t mean everyone can pull it off, but the situation isn’t as dire as it’s often made out to be.
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Ah, some bitter, bitter folks, here, waving their famous (but proven-to-be misleading) statistics regarding divorce rates “facts.”
The divorce stats are have also been called “the most specious pieces of statistical nonsense ever perpetuated in modern times” (as said Pollster Lewis Harris with regard to the idea that half of American marriages are doomed.)
More-useful stats can be found here:
http://www.divorceinfo.com/statistics.htm
Among the more interesting bits:
“Poor people get divorced more than rich people”
Add that to the corollary that marriage increases wealth, and you get more of: the rich get richer (while the sick get sicker and the dumb get dumber).
Now, I realize that a single data point does not affect the curve, but I will give some perspective from my family.
My highly educated, formerly “professional” wife (now full-time mother to our children) asks “well, what are we all working toward, anyway?” She does not seem to miss her consulting career (and SHE had a great job; what about all the folks–including or especially women–who have mere “yobs,” i.e., who are not in “high powered” career tracks or…whatever).
As for “security,” some tidbits:
She has said to me, “You do realize that you are not getting out of this marriage alive, right?” And I believe her.
She actively and consciously helps me maximize my income (“what else are you good for? You can’t even pick up your socks!”) for the good of the unit.
While I do know my annual salary (which, thanks to her efforts, has really taken off), I have no idea what happens in my family bank accounts, I really can’t be bothered. My income is the family’s income, and my wife is the home economist (I carry neither ATM nor checkbook–although I do pilfer the occasional Benjamin as necessary).
Childcare? I do not really mean to be mean, but there is no such thing. My wife was commenting the other day that the nannies that she sees (we have plenty in our town) “look like they are at work.” That is, they are just putting in the time… And as for group childcare… Imagine you are a child; which would you have preferred: Mommy (& Daddy) or daycare… hmmm?
More basically: how many of you–even you liberated Mamas–would hire a MAN as a babysitter? Would use a male-run daycare facility? Hmm? (Be honest, now.)
I will not comment on the struggles of single parents (but you are free to read my thoughts at http://www.anonymous-bosh.blogspot.com)
Lastly, with regard to “security” (and my wife outright *laughs* at the doom and gloom of e.g. the feminine mistake):
Life insurance is cheap (why do folks always cite “the death of a partner?” Life insurance is cheaper than ever before! Sheesh.)
We are in the process of putting all assets in her name (yes, it’s true).
Why am I willing? Uh, because she is the mother of my children (oh, and, yes, my one true love but, hey, we can’t all be that lucky…).
The family is a unit, and each plays a part in the unit’s overall success. My own personal success is directly attributable to the efforts of others (my wife, her parents, and even my children who serve in no small measure to inspire me to work harder and to be a better man).
A number of “modern” factors–often intended to “liberate” women–have had the unintended consequence of allowing men to remain boys (self centered, self absorbed, immature). The joys of marriage and fatherhood are not self evident, they are subtle and evolutionary.
Finance is easy (why does every make as if it is so difficult to spend less than one earns? When I was a SOLDIER I spent less than I earned; I MADE MONEY attending graduate skool–while my colleagues tried to strike for higher stipends(!); and now, my early savings are really adding up).
Marriage–i.e., a familial unit best suited for the propagation and training of the human race–is difficult, but difficult is not impossible, and somehow the “joys” of divorce have gotten blown way out of proportion.
Oh–and cloth diapers rock!
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Weekly Roundup – Dow 14,000 Edition (and the Mommy Wars)…
In case you haven’t heard, the Dow Jones Industrial average closed over 14,000 for the first time yesterday. It actually flirted with 14,000 earlier this week, but retreated before closing. That is, until yesterday… On a related note, did y…
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“[M]y husband and I don’t want to add hospital bills (even though we have fantastic insurance there are still going to be bills from labor and delivery).”
Think outside of the box (Oh, in SO MANY ways!).
We did not do it for the $, but consider midwife attended homebirth. Total cost was $3k (covered by insurance).
Here are some things folks assume:
Babies must be born in a hospital.
Babies need a nursery.
Babies need innumerable toys ‘n’ stuff.
Babies need formula.
Weirdly, while my *mother* more or less flipped out over the home birth, my grandmother thought nothing of it, stating “hospitals are for sick people.”
Once we decided we were too cheap to build a nursery, “co-sleeping” seemed like a good idea, especially given that my wife was committed to breast feeding. Now we cannot imagine things having been different for *any* or our children.
Homebirth gave my wife the control she craved over the birthing process.
Co-sleeping & breastfeeding: outside of injuries, our children have never cried, have never been alone in the night, have never kept anyone else up. Now the older children share a bed together, while the baby is still in with us.
And for those readers who are going to react to what is written above–take a deep breath. Examine your reasoning.
Some families live in yurts; the idea of an entire room blinged out to the max and devoted to a tiny, needful baby seems peculiarly American.
Breast is best, as we all know. And allows not just the father but the mother to sleep comfortably. (And, YES, I am sure that there is some small percentage that, for whatever reason, cannot breastfeed: I am talking to the other 98.5%).
Let’s see, what other crits are inbound? Oh, co-sleeping! With the first, I slept badly for two weeks, always afraid I was going to squish her. Never bothered me since, not even through multiple children. Very good for nervous babies in the night.
Homebirthing: sure, go ahead, criticize it–you are free to do what you want (I often recommend birthing centers to people). We were attended by a team of four midwives. The babies were born according to their own schedule (not some doctor’s schedule).
For the reactors; just so you know: we went from wanting a full-on nursery and hospital birth with scheduled C-section to our hippy, tree-hugging decisions in our first pregnancy–after week 30! So, don’t get all defensive, just think about it on your own time, your own terms. No skin off my nose if it’s not right for YOU!
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[...] How to Start a Family Without Breaking the Bank [...]
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Dear Stacey,
You misconstrue my remarks. I am advocating that people take care of their relationships so they don’t end up in a divorce. I don’t know why you think I am trivializing divorce. I was trying to give people something to do before they get to that point. I watched a 10-year relationship implode 3 weeks before the wedding because the parties involved never really figured themselves out. I think I gave pretty sound advice on preventing a bad scene from happening.
I think people have a lot of fear about the future that cripples them. All I am saying is work out those issues and it will probably end up with a happier situation relationship-wise. That is all.
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I’m expecting my first baby in September, so I really enjoyed the article. I’m planning to stay home for at least a year (I’m really lucky that my job, as an art teacher, will be waiting for me up until my child is ready to start kindergarten). We’re just now planning out the whole life & disability insurance & IRA deal. I feel extremely fortunate that this is a choice we were able to even consider.
A word about childcare/ daycare… As a child I attended daycare and was adored by my hardworking, single mother. My mom always said that she could never provide the resources that a roomful of caring adults and engaging peers could. It was a rich experience for me (and not outrageously expensive for my mother).
I’m excited to start this new adventure. And I’m glad my husband and I chose what feels right for us in a responsible manner – which I think is a major point of the article.
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Excellent post. I am raising 3 boys as a Single Dad and agree with nearly everything you have written here. Having children does not have to break the bank. The thing that frustrates me most and one area one of my recent wives (yes, I collect ex wives like they are going out of style) is that no matter our income, her kids have to have the best, every gadget, at least a few hundred dollars in gifts each for Christmas (which usually meant her taking a loan). I’ve had lean years where my kids got $20 each worth of gifts for Christmas and they have never been happier. It’s all in perspective I suppose.
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[...] Five Cent Nickel — Nickel not only keeps a great personal finance blog, but he also takes time to write about raising four boys. He’s an active member of the GRS forums. While I was in Europe, he wrote about how to start a family without breaking the bank. [...]
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Wow!
Been thinking about the same thing myself. Why is it that some couples can live very comfortably on one income and others struggle with two. So I took the time when came back to Canada to visit family to ask around.
And the answer was quite simple. It all comes down to the husbands earning power. A few of the cases the husband earned more than enough for the family to live a comfortable middle class lifestyle. But more often than not it was that the husband had either a job that allowed loads of overtime or had a business that provided good cash under the table money (handyman for example) In other words he worked enough hours to make up the difference.
In situations where the couple couldn’t live on one income it was because the husband had a job that didn’t pay much and didn’t have any opportunity to earn extra (either OT or partime business)So the wife needed to work.
A few cultural comments
Lived in Germany for 7 years and Madrid for 2 (and counting)
In Germany there are strong cultural taboos that keep most Moms from staying in the workforce. Not surprisingly many couples opt to be chidless. School ends at noon which makes almost impossible to be a working Mom. Childcare is almost non existent.
In Spain 2 income couples are the norm, after school programs run till 7pm. The Spanish do not eat till 10pm allowing loads of time to do the running around after work. Wages are very low and housing very expensive meaning you can’t live on one wage.
The Mommy Wars
It never even occurs to a man he’s sacrificing time with his family to get ahead in his career. I’ve met so many men who think nothing of working till late to get ahead. And as I said above the husband will work sacrifice time with family so the Wife can stay at home.
Most couples I grew up with that had kids worked swing shift, one did the early shift the other the late. Mom usually covered for the short overlap.
Our parents could afford to live on one income because high paying union jobs abound. Trying supporting your family on a Walmart wage (or as we say around Kitchener a Tim Hortons’ Wage – starvation wages but free food). Even two people working at Tim Hortons wouldn’t make enough to live on.
Most wife go back to work as the kids age.
Lastly kids are a real crap shoot, seen kids who’d mothers have never worked turn out, shall I say unproductive as adults, while others who had Mom’s work fultime turn out fine. Who knows!
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Also divorce doesn’t just affect the wife. My now brother in law when he divorced (wife had affair)said it wiped in out financially, he had to move back home to survive.
on the other hand when Catherine (now sister in law) left her husband with 5 daughters in tow she said her standard of living barely changed, that in spite of the fact she had to survive on welfare and partime work.
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One other option about raising kids and making sure that their college is paid for.
We first bought our house with a traditional 30 year fixed rate mortgage. We’ve since refinanced to a 15 year mortgage, so for our last 2 children (out of 4 in all), we will hopefully have the higher mortgage payment that we were paying to contribute to paying down their college tuition/books/etc. We’re be trying to pay it down 4 years earlier (so, pay the mortgage in only 11 years) so that we can pay for the tuition.
That is in addition to setting aside retirement savings for ourselves.
Some men/women (whoever earns more), have the ability to change their schedule to fit the needs of the family. In other words, work around their families schedule and still be quite productive. With 2 parents working, it basically adds one more additional logistic and financial aspect into the equation that must be worked into the problem.
It’s neither completely right, nor completely wrong. Just a matter of one’s own circumstances and wants for their family.
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