Some men/women (whoever earns more), have the ability to change their schedule to fit the needs of the family. In other words, work around their families schedule and still be quite productive. With 2 parents working, it basically adds one more additional logistic and financial aspect into the equation that must be worked into the problem.
It’s neither completely right, nor completely wrong. Just a matter of one’s own circumstances and wants for their family.

on the other hand when Catherine (now sister in law) left her husband with 5 daughters in tow she said her standard of living barely changed, that in spite of the fact she had to survive on welfare and partime work.

Been thinking about the same thing myself. Why is it that some couples can live very comfortably on one income and others struggle with two. So I took the time when came back to Canada to visit family to ask around.

And the answer was quite simple. It all comes down to the husbands earning power. A few of the cases the husband earned more than enough for the family to live a comfortable middle class lifestyle. But more often than not it was that the husband had either a job that allowed loads of overtime or had a business that provided good cash under the table money (handyman for example) In other words he worked enough hours to make up the difference.

In situations where the couple couldn’t live on one income it was because the husband had a job that didn’t pay much and didn’t have any opportunity to earn extra (either OT or partime business)So the wife needed to work.

A few cultural comments

Lived in Germany for 7 years and Madrid for 2 (and counting)

In Germany there are strong cultural taboos that keep most Moms from staying in the workforce. Not surprisingly many couples opt to be chidless. School ends at noon which makes almost impossible to be a working Mom. Childcare is almost non existent.

In Spain 2 income couples are the norm, after school programs run till 7pm. The Spanish do not eat till 10pm allowing loads of time to do the running around after work. Wages are very low and housing very expensive meaning you can’t live on one wage.

The Mommy Wars

It never even occurs to a man he’s sacrificing time with his family to get ahead in his career. I’ve met so many men who think nothing of working till late to get ahead. And as I said above the husband will work sacrifice time with family so the Wife can stay at home.

Most couples I grew up with that had kids worked swing shift, one did the early shift the other the late. Mom usually covered for the short overlap.

Our parents could afford to live on one income because high paying union jobs abound. Trying supporting your family on a Walmart wage (or as we say around Kitchener a Tim Hortons’ Wage – starvation wages but free food). Even two people working at Tim Hortons wouldn’t make enough to live on.

Most wife go back to work as the kids age.

Lastly kids are a real crap shoot, seen kids who’d mothers have never worked turn out, shall I say unproductive as adults, while others who had Mom’s work fultime turn out fine. Who knows!

[...] Five Cent Nickel — Nickel not only keeps a great personal finance blog, but he also takes time to write about raising four boys. He’s an active member of the GRS forums. While I was in Europe, he wrote about how to start a family without breaking the bank. [...]

You misconstrue my remarks. I am advocating that people take care of their relationships so they don’t end up in a divorce. I don’t know why you think I am trivializing divorce. I was trying to give people something to do before they get to that point. I watched a 10-year relationship implode 3 weeks before the wedding because the parties involved never really figured themselves out. I think I gave pretty sound advice on preventing a bad scene from happening.

I think people have a lot of fear about the future that cripples them. All I am saying is work out those issues and it will probably end up with a happier situation relationship-wise. That is all.

[...] How to Start a Family Without Breaking the Bank [...]

Think outside of the box (Oh, in SO MANY ways!).

We did not do it for the $, but consider midwife attended homebirth. Total cost was $3k (covered by insurance).

Here are some things folks assume:

Babies must be born in a hospital.
Babies need a nursery.
Babies need innumerable toys ‘n’ stuff.
Babies need formula.

Weirdly, while my *mother* more or less flipped out over the home birth, my grandmother thought nothing of it, stating “hospitals are for sick people.”

Once we decided we were too cheap to build a nursery, “co-sleeping” seemed like a good idea, especially given that my wife was committed to breast feeding. Now we cannot imagine things having been different for *any* or our children.

Homebirth gave my wife the control she craved over the birthing process.
Co-sleeping & breastfeeding: outside of injuries, our children have never cried, have never been alone in the night, have never kept anyone else up. Now the older children share a bed together, while the baby is still in with us.

And for those readers who are going to react to what is written above–take a deep breath. Examine your reasoning.

Some families live in yurts; the idea of an entire room blinged out to the max and devoted to a tiny, needful baby seems peculiarly American.

Breast is best, as we all know. And allows not just the father but the mother to sleep comfortably. (And, YES, I am sure that there is some small percentage that, for whatever reason, cannot breastfeed: I am talking to the other 98.5%).

Let’s see, what other crits are inbound? Oh, co-sleeping! With the first, I slept badly for two weeks, always afraid I was going to squish her. Never bothered me since, not even through multiple children. Very good for nervous babies in the night.

Homebirthing: sure, go ahead, criticize it–you are free to do what you want (I often recommend birthing centers to people). We were attended by a team of four midwives. The babies were born according to their own schedule (not some doctor’s schedule).

For the reactors; just so you know: we went from wanting a full-on nursery and hospital birth with scheduled C-section to our hippy, tree-hugging decisions in our first pregnancy–after week 30! So, don’t get all defensive, just think about it on your own time, your own terms. No skin off my nose if it’s not right for YOU!

Weekly Roundup – Dow 14,000 Edition (and the Mommy Wars)…

In case you haven’t heard, the Dow Jones Industrial average closed over 14,000 for the first time yesterday. It actually flirted with 14,000 earlier this week, but retreated before closing. That is, until yesterday… On a related note, did y…

The divorce stats are have also been called “the most specious pieces of statistical nonsense ever perpetuated in modern times” (as said Pollster Lewis Harris with regard to the idea that half of American marriages are doomed.)

More-useful stats can be found here:
http://www.divorceinfo.com/statistics.htm

Among the more interesting bits:
“Poor people get divorced more than rich people”

Add that to the corollary that marriage increases wealth, and you get more of: the rich get richer (while the sick get sicker and the dumb get dumber).

Now, I realize that a single data point does not affect the curve, but I will give some perspective from my family.

My highly educated, formerly “professional” wife (now full-time mother to our children) asks “well, what are we all working toward, anyway?” She does not seem to miss her consulting career (and SHE had a great job; what about all the folks–including or especially women–who have mere “yobs,” i.e., who are not in “high powered” career tracks or…whatever).

As for “security,” some tidbits:
She has said to me, “You do realize that you are not getting out of this marriage alive, right?” And I believe her.

She actively and consciously helps me maximize my income (“what else are you good for? You can’t even pick up your socks!”) for the good of the unit.

While I do know my annual salary (which, thanks to her efforts, has really taken off), I have no idea what happens in my family bank accounts, I really can’t be bothered. My income is the family’s income, and my wife is the home economist (I carry neither ATM nor checkbook–although I do pilfer the occasional Benjamin as necessary).

Childcare? I do not really mean to be mean, but there is no such thing. My wife was commenting the other day that the nannies that she sees (we have plenty in our town) “look like they are at work.” That is, they are just putting in the time… And as for group childcare… Imagine you are a child; which would you have preferred: Mommy (& Daddy) or daycare… hmmm?

More basically: how many of you–even you liberated Mamas–would hire a MAN as a babysitter? Would use a male-run daycare facility? Hmm? (Be honest, now.)

I will not comment on the struggles of single parents (but you are free to read my thoughts at http://www.anonymous-bosh.blogspot.com)

Lastly, with regard to “security” (and my wife outright *laughs* at the doom and gloom of e.g. the feminine mistake):
Life insurance is cheap (why do folks always cite “the death of a partner?” Life insurance is cheaper than ever before! Sheesh.)
We are in the process of putting all assets in her name (yes, it’s true).

Why am I willing? Uh, because she is the mother of my children (oh, and, yes, my one true love but, hey, we can’t all be that lucky…).

The family is a unit, and each plays a part in the unit’s overall success. My own personal success is directly attributable to the efforts of others (my wife, her parents, and even my children who serve in no small measure to inspire me to work harder and to be a better man).

A number of “modern” factors–often intended to “liberate” women–have had the unintended consequence of allowing men to remain boys (self centered, self absorbed, immature). The joys of marriage and fatherhood are not self evident, they are subtle and evolutionary.

Finance is easy (why does every make as if it is so difficult to spend less than one earns? When I was a SOLDIER I spent less than I earned; I MADE MONEY attending graduate skool–while my colleagues tried to strike for higher stipends(!); and now, my early savings are really adding up).

Marriage–i.e., a familial unit best suited for the propagation and training of the human race–is difficult, but difficult is not impossible, and somehow the “joys” of divorce have gotten blown way out of proportion.

Oh–and cloth diapers rock!

And while you say what I’ve written isn’t geared to people who have debt, you’re missing the larger point… We didn’t have debt in large part because of the decisions that we made. We intentionally avoided buying things we truly couldn’t afford. And that had a two-fold benefit — it kept us out of debt, and being out of debt kept our expenses down. If you slip into debt, it can become a vicious cycle of spending money on interest, fees, etc. which causes you to fall short on money for everyday living expenses, which leads to more debt, and so on. This is why I made a point of including that in the article. Had we incurred a pile of debt early on (perhaps before we even started having kids) it could’ve gotten ugly.

While I know that there are a lot of people out there that truly can’t afford to have kids, my article was largely motivated by the great many others that think they can’t afford it even though they’re in a much better financial situation than we were when we started our family. For people in that situation, I would have to say that it’s all about choices… Kids don’t have to decimate your finances. Are there expenses associated with raising kids? Sure. But if you’re careful, you can minimize them. No, this doesn’t mean everyone can pull it off, but the situation isn’t as dire as it’s often made out to be.

But I feel like you have been blessed, and are on a completely different playing field than most of my friends who have children. Most of my friends who have kids have absolutely no money. They’re on WIC, they’re on food stamps, they have debt up to their eyeballs.

Most grad students don’t have spouses who have a part time pay of $27,000. That’s where your blessing came in. Most of the grad students I know have very little to no money coming in while their spouses stay home full-time with the children.

While I think this article is fantastic, it’s definitely not geared to the usual grad student or young married couple starting out. Heck, it’s not even geared to anyone who has any kind of debt.

But, it was your choice, and you did have the means to start a family – most people don’t have the means to do so. Right now, my husband and I don’t want to add hospital bills (even though we have fantastic insurance there are still going to be bills from labor and delivery) or anything else to my debt right now until I can get some of it paid off.

I too would want to be a stay at home mom, but my current salary is needed by our family just to pay rent every month (and we’re living in the cheapest housing in our city – at least the cheapest in a safe neighborhood). If I quit work we’d be in some serious financial straits.

Congratulations on the blessings you have! I hope you will continue sharing what has helped you stay debt free with a family of six.

My wife let me know in very certain terms that if we had a baby she would not even consider working for a minimum 2-3 years after her birth. “child care” was not an option. While I didn’t feel as strongly as she did, I pretty much agree. There is no way I could see dropping off a baby/infant at some daycare. I could see starting around the age of 3-4 going somewhere ( more like a SCHOOL than a daycare) for social development and other reasons,etc. But other than that, no thanks.

I will say that I realize this may not be an option for single parents. I had a single mom part of the way and my siblings did all the way ( dad died when I was 12 and they were babies). In this situation I consider it the admirable thing to do what you have to work and support your children, even if it means daycare.

However, if you are fortunate enough to have a 2 parent family it is more often a CHOICE to have both work and drop your kid off on someone else. Now you may think it is more important to be a “professional” or own 2 new cars, a big house, whatever. However, keep it in mind it is a choice. You decide to pursue those things at the expense of your children, IMHO. This applies to anyone with at least “average” earning power.

So, no kids for me because of waiting until too late.

I look at peers who didn’t wait and a lot aren’t making ends meet and I think will have tough retirements. I’m in BC and I think our economy is pretty bad for the 45 and under crowd, especially with kids. Coquitlam, where everyone moved in the 90s because of being able to afford a home there, was a net loser of families with kids and the number one reason why families were moving away was because they could not make ends meet. So, people were picking up their families and moving to where they’d have a 60-90 minute drive to work, or another province.

[...] How to Start a Family Without Breaking the Bank by Nickel (as a guest author) @ Get Rich Slowly. The way this post reads, Nickel must be responding to my earlier post: Think About Your Finances Before Having (More) Children. As I see it, you should either be prepared with money, or be prepared for the sacrifices (which you should do – not your kids) – in either case, you must think along these lines before you have more kids. [...]

When it comes to retirement accounts, our retirement savings that come through my job are in my name only because the IRS doesn’t allow joint ownership of retirement accounts. Moreoever, back before we could afford to fully fund both of our IRAs, we always funded hers first, sometimes leaving mine without contributions of any sort for the year. Since our work-related retirement plans were in my name, this just seemed like the right thing to do.

My wife is the sole beneficiary of everything, (and vice versa) and we have a testamentary trust (as well as guardianship) set up for the kids in case we both die. Where we live, she also has an equal claim to all of these assets if we were to ever divorce. Sure, one of us could hide (or trash) assets, but we won’t. And we’re both comfortable with that – again, you need to make this assessment for yourself.

We have also kept credit cards in both of our names (we are both authorized users on each other’s cards, but there have been rumblings that FICO scoring will start ignoring authorized users, so if you don’t have your own cards, you may not have a good credit history).

I also agree that blanket statements are a dangerous thing, which is why I reacted negatively to the notion that my wife staying home was a decision on her part — nobody can make that assessment without know all of the facts, yet many responded with matter-of-fact, know-it-all statements. I have said throughout that everyone needs to assess their own situation and make the best decision for them.

While I agree that all of the things you and others have brought up should be considered (and yes, we did consider them, although I didn’t have the space or foresight to include every last detail when putting this article together), statistics on the divorce rate, etc. are no more the be-all, end-all on this subject than are our own personal experiences as we started a family and somehow made this all work.

If you re-read what I wrote, you’ll not that I jumped into the money saving thing by saying “How did we make this all work, especially back in the early days?” (bold emphasis added) This piece a personal perspective on how it’s possible to start a family without breaking the bank, not a manifesto on how people should lead their lives.

As to your concerns about women vs. men, the issue is actually one of the stay-at-home parent vs. the working parent, regardless of gender. Yes, it’s more often the mom that stays home, but (as others have pointed out) stay at home dads are equally susceptible to many of the risks you have laid out for moms. Women can be just as vindictive as men in a nasty divorce, a man’s professional skill sets can become outdated just as quickly as a woman’s, etc., etc., etc. Granted, a woman may shoulder a greater burden in the wake of divorce if she gains custody of the kids, but even here that’s not an absolute. In many ways, this issue revolves around family roles moreso than gender. It’s just that gender is often correlated with “typical” family roles, such that people tend to use them interchangeably.

As an aside, if you’re curious about the finer points of many of these financial issues (as they pertain to us, anyway), I’ve written in fairly good detail about most of them over at FiveCentNickel.

“When you write a column about frugality and saving money, I understand it’s difficult to put in everything, but please take into account next time that your “blanket statement” that having a partner stay home and save money is the way to make ends meet with children may not be the best option in some cases.”

I just went back and reread the article. I didn’t see anywhere in it the suggestion that in order to raise children cheaply one partner must stay home. Nickel never says that. What he does say is that they chose to have one partner stay home, that happened to have a financial benefit for them, and that it worked for THEM.

Have you ever read an article anywhere in which all of the points applied to everyone?

It’s nice that you have a great marriage, but your wife could be put at a severe disadvantage should anything happen that you claim will never happen. And, if her children are still young when it happens (nobody gets to live forever), then she will face poverty.

All those years of saving the “family” money equate to her loss if things aren’t taken care of in writing and with assets under her name. I’m sure you love your wife enough to do this, but there are many men (and women) who don’t think about this until it’s too late. They only see “saving money” in the short-term. When you write a column about frugality and saving money, I understand it’s difficult to put in everything, but please take into account next time that your “blanket statement” that having a partner stay home and save money is the way to make ends meet with children may not be the best option in some cases.

I preferred staying home with my child and it does make a difference, I just don’t think people should risk the farm while doing it. I hope that if one person does decide to stay home that they put assets under that person’s name and stay married at least 10 years because that’s when that person can share in her husband’s social security benefits. If he dies before then, good luck.

Some marriages do last a lifetime, I still hope mine will be one of them, but people who have a “It couldnt’ happen to us” attitude remind me of teenagers who drink and drive because they think they’re invulnerable.

It’s just like life insurance. According to an actuary, you have a certain likelihood of living to (say) age 65 when you are 20. But when you are 30, the odds are different. Assuming you are still healthy, the odds have gone up. But if you’ve been diagnosed with cancer in the interim, the odds have gone down.

To say that every marriage has an equally likely chance of ending in divorce is fallacious. If your argument was that, at the outset, every marriage has an equally likely chance of failure, then I’d be more willing to buy your argument. But the odds at the outset aren’t what counts here. What’s important are the odds when you decide to start a family, stay at home with the kids, etc. And by then you can make a much more educated decision. Sure, it’s not 100%. Nothing ever is. But the point is that you need to weigh all available “evidence” and make the best decision for you and your family. In some cases, the best approach will be for both parents to work. In other cases, it will be best for the mom to stay home. And in yet others, it’s best for the dad to stay home (or both, as we did by splitting shifts at the outset).

Again, I would argue that individuals need to make their own, individual assessment of the situation rather than being fear mongered into one approach or another. There is no blanket answer here.

Would it help if I said it “loudly”?

#60 Fivecentnickel:
“It’s inaccurate to make a blanket statement about 50% divorce rates and use that brow beat people into living life in a certain way (note that I’m not saying anywhere here did that, but certain books/gurus have). It’s simply not a coin toss in each and every marriage. Some marriages have a much greater (near 100%) likelihood of failure from the get go, and others have a very, very low probability of failure.”

And how does one judge their own marriage’s chances of failure?? One would imagine that nearly 100% of marriages were started with the intention of ’till death do us part. That means 50% of married people are wrong. Everyone knows at least one perfect couple that didn’t make it. No marriage is 100%. Period. No one is brow-beating. We are simply stating the facts. Loudly.

A few additional details, some of which I’ve already alluded to in comments above… Our plans in the event of my wife’s or my own early demise are extensive (and possibly excessive), but you can’t be too careful.

As for getting access to your spouse’s assets before filing bankruptcy in the event that they pass on, a well-structured estate plan (complete with named beneficiaries for every asset) will take care of this.

And like I said above, everyone will need to make their own decision with regard to their comfort level with and trust in their spouse. It’s inaccurate to make a blanket statement about 50% divorce rates and use that brow beat people into living life in a certain way (note that I’m not saying anywhere here did that, but certain books/gurus have). It’s simply not a coin toss in each and every marriage. Some marriages have a much greater (near 100%) likelihood of failure from the get go, and others have a very, very low probability of failure. Again, people have to make their own choices when it comes to things like this. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.

As for childcare choices, my intention was never to get into a pissing match about this. Rather, in *our* case, we wanted someone to be home with the kids. Early on, my wife and I split these duties, with me staying home while she worked, and then her staying home while I did my thing. We later transitioned into her being home full time and me working full time. For this *we* feel fortunate. Others might not see it the same, way, and that’s their prerogative. And mapgirl’s right in that you get what you pay for when it comes to childcare. There’s no way we could’ve afforded an acceptable (to us) level of childcare given our financial situation at the time.

My wife makes our baby food by doing the following:

Home grown vegetables like green beans, sweet potatoes, etc are finely pureed in our blender. She then fills ice cube trays with the mixture and sets them until frozen. She removes them from the trays, and put in a baggie or other container. The ice cube tray size cubes are the perfect serving size for our little one and saves the rediculous cost of baby food from the store!!

just an idea!