If you're new here, you may want to learn what this site is about. I encourage you to subscribe to my RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!
This guest post from Terry M. contains strong language.
Most readers of this blog are from the United States, Canada, or the United Kingdom. We have an extraordinarily high standard of living compared to most of the world, and I feel there are a lot of lessons to be learned from how people live in developing countries.
I have traveled a bit, mainly in Latin America, southeast Asia, and India. In most of these regions, the middle class earns $500-$1000 per month, and this is considered quite a good income. At world standards, income of $1/day brings you above extreme poverty. $2/day puts you above poverty level. Something to think about.
Driving in India
I spent a month working in Bangalore, India, last year, and it has had a tremendous impact on how I view the way I live. At the time I had been driving my SUV eight miles each way to work, alone. In Bangalore, there is a system of buses, and the employers all operate buses to go from the main residential districts to the offices. Every day in Bangalore I took the bus to and from work, for free. In Bangalore most people take the bus to work.
Public transportation is good, and you can also get a ride on auto-rickshaw very cheap, maybe around $1-$2 to anywhere in the city. Some people have cars, but even more people have motorbikes, a nearly forgotten mode of transport in developed countries.
A motorbike costs about 1/10th the price of a car, and costs maybe 1/5th as much to operate. Say all you want about how the cost of living is cheaper in India than in developed nations, but gasoline costs about 2x what it does in the U.S. and any imported car costs 2x as much as the US due to the 100% import tax. So how do Indians get away spending so much less on transportation than we do? When I went to Bangalore I realized immediately that my American lifestyle of driving to work in my SUV alone every day was a total waste, an enormous waste, an enormous inefficiency I cannot begin to describe.
Living in Mexico
For three years I have been dating a Mexican girl. She lives in the country’s third-largest city, which is a two-and-a-half hour drive from the U.S. border. She has a Master’s degree in psychology, and earns $600 a month. This is a solid middle-class living. She lives well, easily pays all of the bills, and when she comes here to visit me is able to spend more money at the luxury malls in the U.S. than I can even though I earn almost 20x more than she does. In Mexico, imported name-brand clothes from the U.S. are much more expensive than in the states, and carry much more social significance.
What’s the secret? Probably the biggest is that she lives with her parents. This is a common theme throughout almost every country on the planet. In most of the world it is not normal for single people to live on their own. People will live with their extended families and save a hell of a lot of money on living expenses. Free housing? Sounds good to me. Housing is cheaper in many parts of the world than in the U.S., but not by that much; I pay $700 a month for rent here in the US, but in in most major world cities it still costs several hundred dollars. Not nearly enough of a difference to make up for the 10x-20x salary differential. Those in developing nations are just a hell of a lot smarter than we are about how they spend money.
One can also look to the “undocumented immigrants” in the US. The third-biggest component of the Mexican economy (behind oil and tourism) is money sent home from Mexicans living abroad. They do the work that we refuse to do, in many cases earning less than minimum wage, but yet live so frugally they have enough money to send home to make an enormous impact on a major world economy. While you are drowning in debt up to your ears paying off your mortgage, the guys who did the actual work to create your house have no debt and their income so far exceeds their spending they are able to save big time and send money back home. How do Mexicans spend so much less on living in our country than we do? I’d love to see statistics on this, but I bet the average Mexican immigrant spends a hell of a lot less money living in the U.S. than we do.
Coming from Laos
My best friend in college was from Laos, one of the poorest, most corrupt, and most fucked-up countries on the planet. His family were refugees who came to the U.S. during the problems that country was having in the mid-to-late 1970s. His parents speak no English, and literally have less than an eighth grade education, and never earned more than minimum wage. But between the two of them, they worked three, or four, maybe even five, full-time jobs, including positions none of us would ever do, such as forklift operator.
They easily paid off a house in the U.S., and put three kids through college and achieving the American Dream many times over what I will ever achieve. Out of all my friends, my Laotian friend is the most spoiled, and his parents always got him the latest and greatest gadgets,
and I was shocked when he told me they sent him $100K cash as a down payment for a condo in downtown Chicago.
I’ve never been to Laos but I’ve been to other southeast Asian countries which neighbored Laos. In any of them you can have a hearty meal at a restaurant for less than $1. So why are we spending hundreds of dollars a month on grocery bills spending all sorts of dollars on our fancy organic name brand food, when we can eat well and eat more for so much less. I’ve priced food in many developing nations, and for basic ingredients the prices are approximately the same worldwide. How we Americans manage to spend more than a hundred dollars on food per month I will never understand — yet I do it every month!!
Happy in Colombia
My favorite country to visit in the world is Colombia. It has the most beautiful and most awesome natural beauty I have ever seen anywhere on this planet, and has the truly nicest, most generous, and most kind-hearted people in the world. When I retire I want to live in central Colombia and live on the coffee plantations, whose mountain scenery is so crazy gorgeous it cannot even begin to be expressed in words.
Colombia is a very poor country, and has been torn apart by violent civil war for the past four decades. There are more internally displaced persons here than any other country in the world, except for the Democratic Republic of Congo. Bogota is a major world city yet in the vast suburban slums just outside the capital, many people are starving to death (literally), and lack running water and functional sewage systems.
While we can afford the latest iPhone and various other luxuries, a mere four hour plane ride away from the richest country on the planet, some people cannot even afford to feed themselves. Yet the people of Colombia are happy. They place extraordinary emphasis on family and friends, and are not defined by the size of the house they live in or the gadgets they have.
The average Colombian I have met seems a lot more happy and content than the average American I have met whose life is consumed by go-go-corporate-takeover lifestyle. I don’t know about you, but I spend one-third of my life sleeping, and I can vouch that it is more enjoyable when I know people care for me, than when my only concern is the latest rat-race of the week, bucking for the latest promotion. When you walk down the street anywhere in Colombia, people will smile at you, you can strike up conversation with any stranger, and they project happiness. I think the Colombians are on to something.
Spending in the U.S.
What the hell is wrong with us??
Here we are living in the most prosperous parts of the world, earning $50K-$100K per year, which is truly a fortune by world standards (literally more than the “average earthling” will earn in a lifetime), yet we are up to our ears in debt, and can barely make ends meet, and seem to be generally unhappy. We complain about fililng our car with $3/gallon gas, but the truth of the matter is that 90% of the world cannot afford to buy a gallon of gas let alone even dream of affording the car in the first place.
Meanwhile, our counterparts in developing nations are living the high life, saving money, and helping others out on 5% or 10% of our salary. Are we the most spoiled people who have ever walked the planet? Are we living unsustainably beyond normal world means? Or is our economy built on an enormous house of cards? I’m very interested to hear other’s opinions about the dichotomies which exist in the world economy between the rich and the poor. I’m particularly interested in how people in rich countries have been influenced by the economics and lifestyles of developing nations.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:55 am
“She has a Master’s degree in psychology, and earns $600 a month. This is a solid middle-class living. She lives well, easily pays all of the bills, and when she comes here to visit me is able to spend more money at the luxury malls in the U.S. than I can even though I earn almost 20x more than she does.”
Are you earning almost $12000/month?
July 27th, 2007 at 6:01 am
Great! Rest of the world=Smart, tough, and thrifty. Americans= Lazy, complaining, hedonists. I’ve never heard this argument before.
This article lacks context and ignores the fact that millions of Americans are living in conditions of poverty my U.S. Standards. That is what is important! It does not matter if some one in Belize is sleeping under a cardboard sheet. if you live in America, in a home with lead paint-based walls, asbestos in those walls and rats and roaches scurrying around YOU ARE LIVING IN POVERTY! But of course Terry, with all of his/her friends who make 50,000-100,00 dollars a year may not know that such people exist.
I come here to learn about how I can live more frugally in a Western context and how I can prepare myself for retirement. I do not come here to be lectured about being born in a country that is not as poor as India.
Luckily, I know that J.D. has to have an article every day to keep people coming to the blog and he likely does not endorse Terry’s sentiment
Well, excuse me, I’m going to take my champagne bath while millions of starving Colombians bath in infested water from a rusty thimble.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:03 am
As if $1 could buy us the same things here. It is all relative to where you live, of course. 10x income and only triple the rent? Why not live single? How is it not smart to take advantage of wealth? How are we so fucked up? with a per-capita gdp of just over $2000 in Laos, of course it only costs a dollar to eat a meal. No one will pay any more and there isn’t enough capital in that communist country to make exporting efficient enough to raise the price. I agree that we can be more frugal, but in perspective of our success, you can’t say that we haven’t been playing our cards well. Free market capitilism simply worked better than that unorganized communist country’s system.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:07 am
i think in some ways our personal economies as Americans are built like houses of cards. we have just enough debt and big enough spending habits that if one piece of the puzzle were to fall out of place (ie a major car accident, a trip to the hospital, an unexpected child, a loss of a job) lives spiral out of control. a big factor for change is learning to desensitize yourself from the media, which fuels a lot of that go-go-go and buy-buy-buy mentality.
there’s also brain re-training when it comes to things like using the library and using buses or carpooling. there’s also the issue like i have: i live in omaha, where we have practically no public transportation. the buses run these ridiculous routes that take you nowhere, and stop completely at like six pm. it’s just hilly enough that in the throes of summer heat i don’t want to ride a bike to work, even though i work a mile away from my home, because i’ll end up a giant sweaty mess, and i have just enough vanity and respect for my coworkers not to do that.
i agree that we squander the wealth we have … you didn’t even make it to how much clothing, shoes, accessories, etc we americans have in comparison to others! that’s a whole seperate group of expenditures!
good post …
July 27th, 2007 at 6:11 am
I don’t think the article was to insult the American way of life, it’s simply to point out that people can survive on less. I think the North American way of thinking has really skewed the definition of “needs and wants”.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:25 am
Well there you go. I have been to many of these countries that the writter states, and most of what he says is really true. We as Americans do waste a lot. Check your refridgerator and the amount of food you toss out weekly to replenish with new stocks. It just amazes me the amount of waste I generate.
I think the true issue here is that we are bombarded with advertisements daily that make us feel like we NEED all of this stuff. And without it we are some sort of lower person then the guy who has it all. And we sell our future by financing this stuff under BS no interest deals that end up costing us 23% per year when we fail to pay it off in full buy the expirary date. These days we loose a job and if we can not find another within a month we are moving further into debt by taking cash advances just to pay the bills. Our credit scores start to tank as the debt ratio rises and then BAM!!!! Up go your credit card rates to 27% and now you can’t even afford the miniums even if you find another job with the same pay.
Lets just face it guys, your comments are a direct result of the guilt you feel for being so wasteful. Lets all just cut back a little on some of the waste we generate. It could be just shopping for the meal you plan for the day, or maybe taking public transport once a week, or working from home once a week. Every little bit helps, and you might find satisfaction in just trying to live a more simplistic life.
Debt = Slavery and it is legal today, just as it was in America’s earlier history. Only this time it is Corporations who have us in the slavery shackles.
Do what you can to save for your future. Turn off the TV generating 60=70 Adds per hour into your brain making you feel less than you are without these things.
Small steps provide better living standard down the road.
NevOfCards
P.S. I am suprised that the inteligent people that read this blog, could get so angry at this guys message. Take a deep look inside yourselves and find out why you are so angry.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:27 am
I don’t disagree with the sentiment of the article but the fact is that a lot of people have high standards of living because they can afford it. If the Mexican gf made $6000/month would she still be living with her parents? This of course doesn’t excuse someone who makes good money and can’t live within their means.
Mike
p.s. Hi MDJ - fancy meeting you here!
July 27th, 2007 at 6:27 am
Maybe it’s just me, but I like the tone of the article. I don’t agree with everything he says, but hell, at least he has an opinion, based on personal experience.
Too often bloggers worry about offending to the point where they barely have an opinion. They don’t want to lose readers and hence their Google ad revenue.
Step up, state your case, and stand behind it.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:33 am
Addendum: My previous comment certainly wasn’t directed toward J.D. in any way, shape or form. He does a great job here at GRS. So there.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:33 am
What a great article! Thanks for your comments Terry! Being an immigrant from Colombia who has lived in the US for 7 years, I totally agree with your comments about spending habits in developing countries. We have to be content with what we have instead of wanting more and more. I recently traveled back home and was amazed by the hapiness of Colombian people. It struck me that everyone was friendly and polite. Makes so proud of where I come from!
July 27th, 2007 at 6:35 am
J.P., maybe the article meant to give examples of ways to live more frugally by looking to developing countries where the people generally get by on much less. and it’s not only developing countries we should look to for ideas on being frugal, even europe or japan can teach us a thing or two. i strongly feel that my experiences traveling have opened my eyes about what really are necessities and what i can do without. and isn’t that what being frugal is all about? cutting out the things we don’t really need? for example i am currently living in an apartment in japan that is less than 200 sqft. by north american standards that is unthinkable. people call 400/500 sqft condos shoeboxes, but to me they sound positively spacious. i’m not saying everyone should live in 200 sqft apartments, but this experience has been an important lesson for me and made me realize that when i do move back to north america, i don’t need the minimum 800sqft i used to think i did (and consequently would have paid for both in terms of price of the place as well as cost to heat/cool it, and the cost of the stuff to buy to fill it etc. etc.).
July 27th, 2007 at 6:45 am
My wife and I travelled around India for six months after graduating, spending less that $2000 during that time, and it changed my life. We live in a 900 sq ft apartment with no TV or stereo system. But I know that we have a very very high standard of living.
I read recently (on noimpactman) that Colombia and Mexico rank highest in the world on a happiness/resources used scale. My wife and I spent a three weeks in Cali, Colombia adopting our son, and I experienced what you are talking about. My hotel owner took to me to a courthouse to get a document signed. While we waited he struck up a conversation with some of the people there and everyone was laughing and joking so much I assumed they’d know each other for years. No, it turned out they’d just met. But I swear they were having a better time waiting in line at a courthouse than many Americans have at a party. The whole time we there people would approach us and shower our son with compliments (”Que lindo!”). The US felt so cold when we returned.
So I guess what I’m taking from this is that one needs to take a hard look at the relationship between money and happiness. The realization that you can maximize happiness with less money makes retirement a lot less scary, and can make life today much more exciting. Thanks for great post!
July 27th, 2007 at 6:45 am
I like the point of the article, but I can see some people misreading into it that the message is “those other countries are better than America.” I think the point is to point out the flaw of the American “more is better” attitude, which I agree with, not to suggest those countries are better than we are.
I do think it’s a cultural probem here. People have been trained to think what they have isn’t enough (because companies that want to sell something convinced us of that with ads). So, people are working more and more in orded to try and buy more and more. Then, they see someone else with more than they have and try to step it up even more. The sad part, it will never be enough when you live like that. There’s a great quote in YMOYL: “When what you always want is more than what you have is never enough.”
In the US a family of 4 legal-aged people will possibly have 4 cars (one for each person). I see it all the time. Why? Because each person feels they should have their own car, not because they need it. It really is amazing and I have to wonder for how much longer it can be sustained.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:48 am
It could be just shopping for the meal you plan for the day, or maybe taking public transport once a week, or working from home once a week. Every little bit helps, and you might find satisfaction in just trying to live a more simplistic life.
For a lot of people, shopping for the day ends up being more wasteful in terms of gas, and taking public transportation, at least in many large cities, adds hours onto your commute.
Everyone should, though, figure out what they can do to ease up on what they spend in terms of time, gas and money to just live. Maybe it’s using the library more (which I really need to learn to do!!!!) or simply planning out a menu in advance.
There are things that we can do, but I think it’s going to take a little bit of re-training how we think.
I agree 110% about turning off the TV. My husband and I don’t have cable, and the amount of junk I think I want has dropped dramatically.
Anyway, after living in a 100 sq. ft. box for a year, around people who had less than nothing (but they all had their satellite dishes and the Indian pr0n) I’ve come to realize I didn’t need the new Mustang. I did get a used one, because it’s my dream car, but I can live with thrifted shirts, a used car and generic food.
It’s kinda fun.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:05 am
Good post,
Living cheaply isn’t easy in the US, especially when you live in an expensive city like NYC. The system of advertisement and big business is what is keeping us from living the lifestyles that would be the most frugal and intelligent. However, it is the same system that gives us our relatively enormous paychecks. Looks like I’ll be retiring early in one of these countries, living like a king.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:33 am
this post comes at a good time for me.
I live in 870 sq.ft. condo, no car, within walking distance of most everything I need. I’ve started realizing this past month that this place is bigger than I need, and I could be saving $$$ by downsizing. But mostly, as I look at my life, I realize this is just more space than I need or want.
I don’t eat out and cook everything myself, and I’m starting to look at ways to reduce my food bill. It’s surprisingly easy when you decide to do it. I’ve reduced my food bill by about 10% a month since I started, simply by planning my meals ahead of time (and I’m loving weight because I’m eating better!)
This post gave me much to think about. and I agree with many of you: I didn’t see that as a slur against the western way of life, just a call to action to start looking at other cultures to see what we can learn from them!
July 27th, 2007 at 7:40 am
“We complain about fililng our car with $3/gallon gas, but the truth of the matter is that 90% of the world cannot afford to buy a gallon of gas let alone even dream of affording the car in the first place.”
And that’s to say nothing of the fact that Americans have the lowest fuel prices of any developed country.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Americans have confused STANDARD of LIVING with QUALITY of LIFE. ALl those gadgets, big houses, and single occupancy cars isolate us from one another, and while it’s nice to have a little privacy once in awhile, studies show that what promotes human happiness is connection: friends and family. Americans were just as happy during the Depression as they are now - probably because they were all in it together. No one had anything, so they relied on one another.
What drives human unhappiness in part is comparisons which breed envy and jealousy - so when we see others have more, we want it. Even if it won’t add a thing to our quality of life. Juliet Schorr points to a study that shows Americans don’t know their neighbors anymore, so they compare themselves to TV characters. So no wonder depression is on the increase!
July 27th, 2007 at 7:46 am
Have you ever heard of “Middle Class Guilt Syndrome”? Maybe it should be renamed “First World Guilt Syndrome”.
I spent a year living in India after graduation for under $10,000 - Trust me when I say I know the meaning of “happy with nothing”. Since then, I’ve had a tremendously hard time adjusting back to standard North American living, where “more is more”.
But I’ve had to realize, it’s part of life. That’s how it is. The First and Third world are *different*. It’s not especially fair to compare one world to the other. When you do, it’s too easy to nurse a lot of high-brow ideology. I pointed plenty of fingers myself, until I realize how silly I was sounding.
There are plenty of Westerners who attempt to leave the First World bubble and leave a life of supposedly altruistic modesty in Asia - but every one of them sticks out. It is not their rightful place. Deep down, they know in their hearts they should be doing more, that they are better than a dusty mountain village with no running water or electricity.
Even the Dalai Lama would probably agree - If their karma was to be born as a poor Asian, they would have been. To deny your roots as a (relatively speaking) rich Westerner to live in some village, thinking you are saving the world from the evils of corporations, is kind of a cosmic denial.
Some Westerners marry Thai girls… some start guesthouses… some become permanent fixtures at ashrams in India…. they are all trying to find something “better” than their roots, by denying them. I don’t think it works.
If you want to ease the guilt, sure… turn off the TV. Take the bus. Whatever. But don’t feel guilty that you’ve got a heated home when you live in a country that has sub-zero temperatures four to six months of the year.
There’s a reason why they call them different ‘worlds’.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:54 am
I think the article is informative and demonstrates situational relevance for lack of a better term. When I’m in Manhattan on biz, I normally take a cab or subway. Most of the time I hoof it. It’s just doing what the romans do, so to say. Ditto for when I’m in the EU - the accepted mode of transport is the best, and often cheapest. London, tube, India, rickshaw.
Like one of the posters said here, it’s based on each country’s GDP… or even gov subsidies. Gas is subsidized in Venezuela and a few of the *stan countries. But you pay significantly higher taxes, whether VAT or income in those countries, so you’re paying in one way or another.
I often run into UK ex-pats who are driving Ford SUVs here in the States. Why? They have kids and live in the burbs - and its the best way to get around. Again, when in Rome…
For gas prices, $3 is nothing. A gallon of milk costs more than that, so does a 12-pack of Pepsi. I don’t find $3 gas offensive, I think it’s the best deal going. IF anything a gas tax is a user tax and impacts all regardless of income, but does impact drivers of larger engines… perhaps a higher tax would be best to fund roads/transportation initiatives while making folks look at their vehicle choice and driving style.
There are other options for food too, particularly if one has infants. I’ve learned that there are ALWAYS coupons for everything you see in the grocery store or baby store. I smile to myself when I get looks from the people behind me when I’m using coupons or getting grocery discounts. I think to myself, why aren’t you saving $5 on this bottle of formula, I get so many coupons of significant value, it’s not unusual for me to get 10-20% off my food bill each month. And there are local coupon books for decent restaurants that often have buy 1, get 1 free for entrees etc.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:59 am
Just another note to on the awesome backlash this article received. I agree that $50 - $100K is not average. I only entered this range after 12 years of working my butt off, self-teaching computer skills because I had no money or support for college and even this was only possible because I had a free basic education.
I don’t think the writer intends or effectively does disparage lower income Americans or even those that make a lot but are living in compromising circumstances. I think if you’re offended you should reread the part about his Laotian friend. The point is, if you’re not happy (spiritually or financially), if you’re willing to work hard enough instead of sitting around surfing the internet all day, you can get yourself out of the hole. It’s a sense of helplessness, rage and self-entitlement that’s getting you down. You can blame American culture / social programming for a while but ultimately you need to take responsibility for your role in the direction your life takes.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:02 am
“Yet the people of Colombia are happy. They place extraordinary emphasis on family and friends, and are not defined by the size of the house they live in or the gadgets they have.”
I’m sorry, I have a hard time when I hear people say this. It strikes to me of romanticization of the poor. This isn’t a Dickens novel people. I’m working and living in Beira, Mozambique right now, and I hear many Americans echo this phrase a lot: “They are so poor, but yet, so happy.” I’m sorry but is having no safety net happy? Is not knowing where your baby’s next meal coming from happy? Sure, familial networks exist, but I just don’t buy the “They look so poor and happy” line of thinking.
Romanticizing the poor by noting how much money they save on their food budgets (which are usually not nutritionally balanced, because it is too expensive) or talking about how the poor people can get by with so little seems to be missing the point entirely. I know a ton of kids here that would die to have a new gadget or two, or a school uniform, or whatever… but what the barriers of our system of world enslavement in the name of consumption are what are perpetuating this cycle of extreme poverty/extreme consumption.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Hi, long-time lurker here
This comment is specifically on the “Living in Mexico” part. I can attest to the craftiness of people to be able to save that much money while earning minimum-wage or less-than-minimum-wage.
First up is housing. Many people will live in the same apartment at the same time. 2-bedroom places will have at least 4 people in them. 3-bedroom/4-bedroom apartments/houses will have at least 6 people in them, with houses being able to fit even more people because of basements and attics. I once went to a friend’s place… it was a 4-bedroom house+attic+basement and there were 11 people living in it. Most of them were family and were happy to share stuff placed on the living room
In all of these cases the same logic applies: the more people living in a place the less each has to pay for rent. Obviously separate arrangements will need to be made for food, heating/AC, bathing, etc; but usually a happy balance is reached. If someone gets a raise or gets a high-paying job they might get a room of his/her own or move somewhere else.
Second is transportation. People usually buy special bus cards that last for 1 month with unlimited use during that month. Unless they have 2 jobs or they have a complicated schedule they will buy a car. When they DO buy one it is going to be used, NEVER new.
Third up is food. Working in anything food-related? Eat at work for free. At the end of the day take home stuff that would be otherwise tossed; Managers/supervisors usually know they’re not supposed to allow this but most of the time prefer it this way. Otherwise buy food at the supermarket and prepare it at home. Dinner at restaurants are only for special occasions and takeout/delivery foods are ordered once a week at the most.
Between those things they’re to cover their own living expenses and save the rest to send it back home.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:21 am
This is just a quick note to point out that this post originated in the GRS discussion forums, and I asked permission to move it to the front page. At the time, I was planning to post a two- or three-article series on the relationship between money and happiness. That series was never completed (though I hope to finish it when I return). I think this particular post is a short, thought-provoking examination of how money doesn’t buy happiness, which is probably nothing new to most of you.
Anyhow, it’s time for me to take a nap now, though it’s going to be a little difficult since the folks on the top level of the double-decker bus tours can look right in at me.
(I’ll draw the blinds…)
July 27th, 2007 at 8:22 am
I take the broad point of the article (although as I’m Irish the “ugly Americans” insult doesn’t work on me anyway) but my husband is from Bangladesh, and I saw or met many (business owning or professional class) people there who have ostentatious houses, spend a fortune in bars, have driver, maid, cook, etc in their homes, spoil their kids, have the gleaming beemer and love American-style malls. As well as plenty of people who aspire to that lifestyle! Not everyone in the developing nations are living frugal lifestyles, any more than all Yanks are wasteful sloths.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Everyone here does realize that consumer spending is what props up our economy, right? Something like 72% of GDP. Without it, no one would make money……
http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/33950
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/International__Business/US_economy_posts_decent_growth/articleshow/2237653.cms
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=consumer+spending+gdp&btnG=Search
Cost of living is always relative to location, even in the US. Why would it be any different in another country?
July 27th, 2007 at 8:26 am
Financial tips from developing nations…
Here's a blog post that made me think twice: Most readers of this blog are from the United States…
July 27th, 2007 at 8:32 am
“I’m particularly interested in how people in rich countries have been influenced by the economics and lifestyles of developing nations.”
“When I retire I want to live in central Colombia and live on the coffee plantations, whose mountain scenery is so crazy gorgeous it cannot even begin to be expressed in words.”
I think you answered your own question. The dichotomy between the rich and poor nations has more to do with western culture and the lack of sustainability if anything. All you saw over in those countries were the things that you lack. When you go over there, Colombians see what they lack which is most often money and opportunities to make more. The same glowing distorted picture that you paint of the developing countries has a similar distorted picture on the other side. In West Africa, many of my cousins grew up thinking that America has streets paved with gold and everyone lives like celebrities. People uproot their lives and come to the US to seek all the opportunities they could not get before. A lot of foreigners over work themselves to save up money because everyone expects them to return as a millionaire to support the family. Everyone in Colombia can not live in coffee plantations and everyone in the US can not have a house on an acre with a white picket fence. It is a simple Supply and Demand, as more and more people in developing countries become wealthy, the poison pills of credit cards and marketing will create the materialism lifestyle that you are trying to run away from.
If the poor people in the US could be given a chance to live in a developing country for a year, I am sure it would serve the dual purpose of helping lazy people get on their feet and cause people to realize that being wealthy has less to do with money and more to do with self worth and how you handle what is given to you.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:36 am
One of the most amazing things I’ve learned is that a very large percentage of the world’s population uses bicycles as their primary form of transportation.
I started cycling to work this summer a few days each week, and it’s saved plenty of cash while giving me a workout at the same time. Why bother using a stationary bike in a gym when you can use a real bike and get some fresh air?
Robyn: Give cycling a try. If your commute is only a mile, you’re definitely not going to be a “sweaty mess” when you arrive. I commute 11km each way (about 7 miles) and it takes me 40 minutes going a leisurely (i.e. below perspiration level) pace.
Instead of being stuck in traffic, I take quiet side streets and bike trails to work, and I get there about 10 minutes later than I would if I had driven, without all of the rush-hour aggravation.
Total cost for gas and parking: $0. Total cost for maintenance on a bike: Less than $20 a year.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:40 am
Maybe you all need to come to India and actually see what efficient living means like Terry…
July 27th, 2007 at 8:42 am
the problem for me with biking is i live at the top of a big hill and work at the top of a big hill, so it’s literally up hill both ways! that’s where i get wary of biking, at least to work, because much of the ride will be uphill, causing me to sweat due to being out of shape. although once the heat breaks a bit i will be biking because then it won’t be 100 degrees!! i could still bike to work almost every day of the year (minus snow and rain and extreme heat)
July 27th, 2007 at 8:43 am
I think this is a great article, and I don’t think that the author intended to give the impression that either all Americans are wasteful sloths or that all people in developing countries are frugal. I agree entirely with what I believe to the be point: visiting different cultures can help to demonstrate new ways to approach frugality.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:58 am
I completely agree with the author. I have lived in a few different countries, the least developed of which would be Kenya.
The people getting angry at the author’s message just goes to show the selfishness and unhappiness that exists in these western cultures. Sure these societies are good for earning money but we have to sacrifice so many other valuable things.
I cannot believe the amount of complaining and whining that goes on in the western world. If people only knew how good they had things. People should take a couple weeks to get out of their American Dream lives to see how fortunate they really are.
As far as I’m concerned, there is no real poverty in the US or Canada. Poverty in western countries is self-inflicted.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Robyn writes: “i could still bike to work almost every day of the year (minus snow and rain and extreme heat)”
Honestly, it’s all about the “brain re-training” that you mention in your original comment. People cycle to work in rain, snow, and heat all around the world, and they do just fine. Getting sweaty because you’re out of shape just means that you’re getting exercise, which is one of the best ways to get yourself back into shape. Check out http://www.icebike.org for some ideas of people who cycle even in extreme weather.
I started cycling to work to get exercise, not to save money. I’ve only realized afterward how much of a savings it really is. It’s also a lot of FUN!
July 27th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Thank you for this article. I’ve read similar ones before, but every time I do it helps me gain some perspective. I’ve put in quite a bit of effort these last three years or so to change my ways and be more frugal, but when I read things like this I know I still have a long way to go. I appreciate being reminded of how few material things in life are truly necessary for happiness. Thanks.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:09 am
The climate where you live makes a big difference, too. I could cut down on half of my clothes if I didn’t have to plan for 80-95 degrees F for three months, and 0-20 degrees F for three months (and somwhere in between for the other six months). Obviously, then, having a motorbike/bicycle wouldn’t work on the cold/snowy days–nor while wearing a skirt.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:14 am
[...] that important? I’m wondering if you’ve set foot outside the US to see how other people live. What Developing Nations Can Teach Us About Personal Finance ? Get Rich Slowly [...]
July 27th, 2007 at 9:23 am
great post
reading this insires me to want to travel more and see how the rest of the world lives
one thing that stands out is the mexican girlfriend that lives with her parents
i can attest to that.. i am 29 and have been living at home since i was born (here in the US).. i have NEVER paid rent.. and with the money i’ve saved i’ve been able to become debt free.. and save a good chump change into retirement before the age of 30.. the only downside is that i’ve never really gotten a chance to live that “bachelor” lifestyle living on my own.. but the trade off is worth it
people tend to look down at people who live at home.. they expect them to be out of the house by the age of 18.. i am filipino and living with parents is a common thing.. it is sort of a custom to live at home.. and as the parents get older.. it is your responsibility to take care of them
July 27th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Travel broadens the mind.
Considerig what things are like elsewhere gives us the opportunity to evaluate whether we need things or want things. Its true that many people in less developed countries would choose American style / British style etc lives if they could but that doesn’t mean its therefore a good choice.
If people elsewhere can do without then you *could* to - you don’t have to, but have you considered whether or not you might want to?
July 27th, 2007 at 9:37 am
“How do Mexicans spend so much less on living in our country than we do? I’d love to see statistics on this”
Statistics I don’t know buy I’ve seen with my own eyes: they rent small houses or trailers and share them between several people. No health insurance. Since they don’t have credits, they don’t pay interests. Eat cheap junk or cook from scratch. Share cars. Very little or non-existent leisure and clothing expenses. And most importantly: work 14-18 hours a day 7 days a week and not always pay the income taxes.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:38 am
I too have been struck by how happy people in Mexico are with so little. While I agree with the sentiment, the cost of living is so different in each of these areas and the transportation comment annoyed me a little. Not everyone in America lives in a large city (or makes $50-100k for that matter).
In comparing America to other contries I think people forget that a lot of those contries are equal in size to one of our states. In all but the biggest cities public transportation is pretty poorly run- if it even exists. Where I live each town is at least 10-20 miles away from the next. We live in a northern rural area where 4 wheel drive is a useful tool to have on a poorly maintained road in the winter. I agree that a lot of people in this country don’t need a huge SUV but I’m getting annoyed that they are always viewed as a symbol of all that is wrong with America.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:44 am
“Everyone here does realize that consumer spending is what props up our economy, right? Something like 72% of GDP. Without it, no one would make money……”
While this is true, check out the article at the address below for an argument that puts it in perspective.
Shopping is not Patriotic
http://cafehayek.typepad.com/hayek/2005/11/shopping_is_not.html
July 27th, 2007 at 9:58 am
I am sick and tired of half-wits telling me that I am living high on the hog, wasting money and resources.
Whenever some pol wants to show how poor a country is, they always say “…and they live on $1 a day.” Well, excuse me, but what does that $1 buy in that country? What does the middle class earn there? What subsidies does the government provide?
I don’t deny that that we use more, but, so what? Why do people risk their lives to come here if we are so terrible?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:18 am
I think it is probably useful to look at how other people live to see if we can learn something from them. However, some of the examples and complaints don’t hold water. Sure, I can go to some 3rd world country and get my food for $1/day - but I’ll be eating meat that’s been sitting in the sun and covered with flys. I’m happy to pay more for some quality control.
What about the recent news from China about the dumplings made from cardboard? Sure, later reports indicate that those stories were fake, but my point is that so many people were able to believe that they were true. If a story like that came out about food in the US, I think most people wouldn’t believe it.
Public transit? For the most part, a joke, at least here in California. I just checked - from my house, I’d have to go about 10 miles to get to the nearest transit center, where I could catch a bus that would then get me near my work after only about an hour on the bus, for only $54/month for a bus pass. Alternatively, I can drive the 15 miles on my motorcycle for about $10/week in gas and only take 20 minutes total. How does that add up?
Bus = 10 mile drive to the station (call it 15 minutes + 1/4 gallon gas @ 40mpg) plus another hour on the bus for $2.70 ($54 monthly pass/20 work days per month) - total for the bus = 1.25 hours, $2.70 and 0.25 gallons/gas. (each way) Weekly total by bus (round trip) = 12.5 hours. $13.50 for 1 weeks share of the bus pass, 1.25 gallons of gas.
Drive myself = 15 miles (call it 20 minutes and round up to 1/2 gallon of gas, each way) Weekly total to drive = 3.5 hours, 5 gallons of gas.
If I value my time at minimum wage (hardly!), then the 9 hours lost on the bus are worth well over $50 - more than enough to cover the extra 4 gallons of gas/week.
Admittedly, this doesn’t look at the harder to figure costs of insurance, wear-and-tear, and so forth that I also incur by driving instead of taking the bus.
Despite my comments so far, I think that the low price of gas in the US hinders development of decent public transit systems. I’d like to see a gradual increase in the taxes imposed on gas, with the money going towards mass transit solutions. Higher taxes are why gas costs so much more in most of the rest of the world. Current high prices have caused a slowdown in SUV sales. Even higher prices will lead to further demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles, and that can only help us in the long run.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Terry,
The difference with us and other countries. Is “Credit Cards” that allow us to suffer financially. Americans carry more debt than any other country. That is why we are able to afford iPhones and other gadgets.
Not all Americans live in this cycle. I am one of them.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:27 am
The world is complex. And it isn’t going to contained within a blog post and some comments. Terry’s observations are very accurate and it’s good that people are aware of these things and that this kind of information is becoming more (if only slightly) wide-spread, but when it comes down to it, one person can only do so much. And when that thing that needs to be done is seen as a sacrifice, no one is going to want to budge (especially Americans) if they don’t HAVE to or aren’t forced to.
The US is just not BUILT the same way other countries are. Sure, you can stay in the same town you grew up in and work at the local fill-in-the-blank for the rest your life and live either with or right next door to your ENTIRE family, but that’s assuming that you grew up in the SAME town your entire life and that your extended family also lives in that town. That’s not what the US is, and it was never REALLY like that. We settled on the east coast of this country for a while and then decided to pack up our shit and haul ass west to see what else we could find and take and settle and do and call our own.
Americans are always looking for improvement and more and advancing in whatever way possible. And that’s a GOOD thing, a really good thing, but unfortunately some people are a little slow and not everyone is playing along or following at the same pace. It would be a VAST improvement if Los Angeles (I live here, so that’s what I’m basing my statement on) had a more substantial public transportation system (no buses, buses are antiquated), but sadly that has yet to happen, because of a lack of cooperation. The transit system needs approval from the government, but the government won’t approve if all (or most) Beverly Hills decides to bitch and moan. Not to single out the Beverly Hills community, but it turns into a greater issue when people cry about their precious neighborhood being disturbed simply because they’re being selfish and not looking at EVERY aspect of the situation at hand (i.e. more public transportation = less TRAFFIC and less people parking in your front lawn). So instead, since people can’t get convenient and accessible public transportation, people buy H3s that get 12 miles to the gallon to make their commute “more enjoyable”… until they realize that they’re not really qualified to drive a vehicle of that size (or at all), but that’s another story….
July 27th, 2007 at 10:44 am
It’s interesting how much of this thread reflects a variety of stereotypes about the third world (my own comment included). One tricky aspect is that ‘Third World’ does not equal ‘Poverty.’ I don’t think this post reflects the ‘They are so poor, and yet so happy’ cliche. It’s about some people have food, shelter, healthcare and are supporting a family and being happy, but without needing to spend so much. I don’t think there’s anything for people to feel guilty or angry about here, it’s about looking for new ideas.
There’s also this weird impulse to extremes. Like if I can’t spend $200 a week on groceries that means I’m ‘eating meat that’s been sitting in the sun and covered with flys.’ In my experience much of the food I’ve had in the third world is much fresher than what you get in the supermarket here. After all much of our food is shipped 1000s of miles before we eat it, or processed and packaged so it can sit for months a shelf. Again, it’s a cliche - there’s plenty of low quality processed food in the third world too.
I guess it shows how the imbalance of wealth in the world really is a touchy subject. Same goes for talking about class in the U.S., as indicated by the point that the majority of americans who make much less than $50-100k are invisible to those who do. But it’s great to read this kind of rough and tumble debate.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:18 am
It’s one thing to focus on money, but why not look at some of the other comparisons between US & 3rd world countries…
Life Expectancy:
US - 78 years
Mexico - 75 years
Colombia - 72 years
India - 68 years
Laos - 56 years
(World avg = 66 years)
Infant Mortality:
US - 6 deaths/1000 live births
Mexico - 18/1000
Colombia - 21/1000
India - 34/1000
Laos - 81/1000
(World avg = 43/1000)
I dunno, the US doesn’t look so bad when you see the WHOLE picture, not just the statistics you want to see.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Your point of the article is that as Americans, we have too much, waste too much, etc. However, you state that your girlfriend can come here and spend more then you can in the luxury mall. That kind of contradicts your point.
Then you go to point out 12 undocumented Mexicans can live in a house and send money back to Mexico because no one wants to do their job. Funny, because my uncle is a carpenter and he likes to build houses. Odd, though, that he wants to get paid enough so he can go shop in those luxury malls.
Your rationale on some things……they don’t make sense. While commuting on the motorbike or bus would make sense for a lot of suburbs, it will not happen. While you use India’s cost for the bus, the cost here would be ridiculously more, unless subsidized by the employers, simply because we have higher emission standards then India. Plus, India has 1billion people that demands public transportation. The US with the suburbs, is simply not designed for an efficient public transportation system. Perhaps in cities, yes, but suburbs, no.
I agree with tinyhands. I’d prefer to have a higher life expectancy and to have my children live. The great thing about America is that we can chose how we want to live–whether that choice includes air conditioning and daily baths and high end electronics or having some of the amenities and fighting of disease and illness and if living in Columbia because you have money, kidnappings.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
[...] What Developing Nations Can Teach Us About Finances ~ from GetRichSlowly blog [...]
July 27th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
I’m in the same boat as kick_push. I’m 34 and live at home. Both my parents immigrated here from Jamaica. To them it’s perfectly natural for kids to live at home as long as they want. They are constantly puzzled by their american-born friends who insist on kicking their kids out of the house at 18.
Lik kick_push mentioned, people like us do get looked at funny when we say we still live at home. However those looks disappear when they realize I’m debt-free, saving money, have a great relationship with my parents, and happy. While I don’t pay rent, I give my folks some money each month and pay one of the bills. I don’t own a car, but my parents let me use their when I need it, which is rarely because I take public transportation everywhere.
I’m very thankful to have the parents I do and their mindset on family and sharing resources. Most of my friends who are first-generation American (like me) notice this difference all the time.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
[...] at finances, like I am, you should subscribe to it right away. In one of his recent guest post - What Developing Nations Can Teach Us about Personal Finance -, the author Terry M has written about his experience of traveling in Bangalore as compared to US. [...]
July 27th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I’m sorry you’re getting so many reactionary comments from readers. I just wanted to put my two cents in here, and say I know exactly what you mean. I’m a US citizen, living in the US right now but I grew up in Hong Kong and the Philippines and I can definitely agree with your ideas. I think people are taking it as an attack on Americans, when in fact its not, it’s insightful comments on a lifestyle. Realize that. One thing people need to understand is that articles like these are NOT meant to make people feel BAD for their privileges, expenses, etc, but to encourage them to simply see other perspectives and be inspired to make small but significant changes they can in their lifestyle, if they can.
I agree, in America we are never going to be able to reach the super low costs of living in some other countries. For example, everything here costs about twice as much as in Hong Kong, and four times what it costs in the Philippines. It has to do with the transport of imported goods and the higher labor costs. Now, what I think is important to realize is that we can learn from certain money-saving habits of other cultures. For example, sharing when eating out (i.e. eating communally or family-style) rather than getting one dish per person, cooking food at home instead of always going out is another trend I see in developing countries, trying to carpool or commute by bike if possible, etc.
I don’t think it was the purpose of the article to attack American people for having more money but to encourage people to think about better ways to manage their finances. No offense, but people here often get WAY to offended by mentioning what it’s like in other countries. Get your head out of your ostrich hole and realize you could learn a thing or two.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I keep reading the comments and the re-reading the post, trying to figure why some people find this post so offensive. Can’t a guy say there are good things about other countries without it being an insult to the USA? Sure the US has lower infant mortality (on average), don’t you think they are working on that in other countries? There are 40 countries in the world with lower rates than the USA, we could learn from them as well (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_(2005) ). You can be patriotic and still learn from a little comparative analysis.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
The theory that illegal immigrants do the jobs that “Americans won’t do” is an absolute lie. My father who is at least 3rd generation American worked as a janitor for 20 plus years. He is of European decent. My mother (also of European decent) worked in a school cafetera for over 20 years as well and most of their co-workers were as American as they are.
Also, one of the reasons some illegal immigrants do so well with money is that some of them don’t pay taxes. In addition, some get free health insurance (I don’t) and some even collect welfare (I don’t get that either). It is completely unfair to compare the supposed “frugality” of someone like that with someone who pays taxes and doesn’t get any freebies. And yet, as you mentioned, designer labels are very important to certain cultures.
There is nothing inherently better about people from 3rd world countries. They don’t have money, so they don’t spend money. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. That’s why your comment “What the hell is wrong with us??” is a bit offensive.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Ben, the post is offensive to some people, but not necessarily for the reason you might think. It had more to do with having a system of standards than what the standards are. If you notice, all (most) of the comments who disagree, don’t disagree with the content, necessarily; they disagree with the way Terry set up the point of view.
Every new standard people come into contact with naturally puts people on the defensive.
For instance, my reaction was, you know, they have rich people in those countries, too; and you know what? They probably live like Americans!
That has nothing to do with your content, just the standards. It’s the framing of the argument, really.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
So basically I need to give up my car, move into a trailer with my parents and 10 other relatives, and work 3 dead-end jobs. Then I’ll be sufficiently poor to be finally happy? Money may not buy happiness directly, but it buys security and freedom, and those things make me very happy. Living in poverty would NOT make me happy, does that really make me spoiled?
I was under the impression that the common vision here was to “Get Rich”. What’s the point of living so frugally now unless you plan to live well later? This makes it sound like we should live like paupers just on principle. I’m quite happy to eat eggs for dinner and drive a smaller car and all kind of other poor-type things NOW because it allows me to save over 1/3rd of my income for later – at which point I intend to buy the house I want, the car I want, and the other stuff I want because I’ll be able to afford it. I guess that makes me spoiled, but so is everyone else working toward wealth. It’s not like you can take it with you.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
The writer says that his experiences have had “a tremendous impact on how I view the way I live” - view being the key word. He weakens his credibility because he doesn’t tell us how his realizations have spurred him to action (or, at least, how he hopes they will). Is he still driving around in his SUV, paying $700 in rent, shopping at the designer mall, and throwing away expired groceries when he could be eating rice? Does he just feel more guilty about it now?
Rita’s above point is also important. Sure, we can glean new ways to live frugally from our observations of the forced frugality of the poor, but we shouldn’t pretend that the they would reject a winning lottery ticket because they know some secret that we don’t about the key to happiness.
Say I live with my family for an extra ten years, sock away all that saved money, retire at 45, and buy a coffee plantation. How is that more honorable than if I live alone, buy a cup of coffee everyday, and retire at 65? One problem with this article is that its core is global poverty, but it’s skirting the issue of charitable giving.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Some interesting anecdotes, but I don’t really see how this applies to personal finance. I could post a story about “some guy I know” in other countries who lives a debt-ridden, awful existence. It means nothing.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
“There is nothing inherently better about people from 3rd world countries. They don’t have money, so they don’t spend money”.
Many of you seem to think that everyone is poor in developing countries (that´s the term, please don’t use 3rd world, it’s derogatory, old-fashioned and horrible. Guess you don’t call black people niggers, do you?).
I may not have two cars, live in NYC and spend nights in Vegas, I may not have an annual wage of 60 thousand dollars, but I have an apartment, a car, watch the same shows you watch, go to the movies, read, date, go to restaurants, travel once a year and, most importantly, I don’t have any debt. For what I have read about you guys, guess not many of you can utter this last sentence. So, who is richer?
Sorry for the “3rd world” English.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
>: ¡Payaso!
Well, everything is related. I like the article because it shows some developing countries with their different aspects. Just promoting tourism, investment and even the idea of retire in one of them, mean also contribution to their development. Good post and thank you.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Just a few observations:
When gas hit USD2.50/gal my wife suggested I should ride the bus to downtown St. Louis. Sure. So I checked the bus schedules because I’d tried it 3 years ago and ended up losing 1 hr. sleep every night. Reading the bus schedules explained why–it added 1 hr. each way to my commute. And I am not going to sell my house in the suburbs where my family has lived for 26 years and knows ALL the neighbors on our street so we can live in a dangerous neighborhood closer to work. When gas hits USD10, I’ll get another job.
10 years ago a friend from Chihuahua visited and was shocked (also hurt) to learn that White Castle paid USD4.10/HOUR, not per day. Until I pointed out that I was paying ~USD 900/month for my house. His is paid for because housing loans in Chihuahua were ~20% so he built when he had enough money to buy some cement block. I also believe his parents gave him their back yard to build on, and that there weren’t many building code inspections. I drove a mile to the grocery store and 17 miles to work. Within a block of his house, there were 2 grocery stores, a fruit store and a butcher shop and he could walk 1.5 miles to work if he wanted. So things were, indeed, different. Not necessarily better. Just different. Last spring he brought his family to visit, and I discovered that he and his wife argue about spending USD150 on the latest Nintendo gadget for their kids just like other north american couples do. BTW, he is an engineer at a maquila and makes a good wage.
One curiosity about the original post is whether the author could afford retirement to a beautiful coffee plantation in the mountains if he had spent his working years in Colombia. I do enjoy travel to Mexico, Guatemala, India and European countries to enjoy the food and see how other people do things, but I wouldn’t lightly trade reliable drinking water for cholera (Veracruz, 1992) or dirt streets, la lluvia lagunera, and plastic bags blowing around (Torreon/La Goma/Popular, 2001). I’m an American and not ashamed of it. I _do_ live in the best country in the world. And I’m still wondering why Barbara Streisand, Alec Baldwin, et al. didn’t keep their promise and leave after that presidential election that got their shorts in such a wad.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I see the post as looking at what lessons you can apply to your life from others to make you happy. As for biking to work, I’ve been doing it for a little over a year (I live about an hour from Omaha). Granted, it is much flatter here but his excuse for not biking is he is not in shape. If nothing else you should start biking before or after work until you could bike a (granted somewhat tough) mile. For me biking started out as a solution to parking but the other benefits have been HUGE! I am calmer, happier, and healthier. It is much more relaxing to bike to and from work - which works about 9 months out of the year here, than to battle traffic.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
I agree with the overarching sentiment (at least, I believe it’s the overarching sentiment) that more is not necessarily more, and to be happy one does not have to buy into the consumerist, materialist culture.
However, the method of the author’s argument is flawed. Regarding public transportation, for instance. The design of America’s living spaces–the suburbs–is virtually unique throughout the world and completely unsuited for facilitating fast, cheap public transportation. Even if you consider gas being less in America, the cost of operating public transit systems that serve suburbians is prohibitive to most cities. In this case you need to address not the frugality habits of individuals, but how public policy itself is shaped. Does the government subsidize public transit? Do we take off the massive gas subsidies to encourage public transit’s use? Does the government aggressively monitor new home and community construction to make sure it facilitates efficient movement between spaces? It is one thing to argue for more public transit and motorbikes; it’s quite another thing when you’re the guy who’s waiting two hours for a bus that may or may not come or trying to navigate that scooter down six-lane highways. Countries are constructed differently and thus some things are easier and some are harder.
Or take the food issue. As someone else noted, for one, fresh food is cheaper and easier to obtain in other areas of the world, and two, those meals people are buying on salaries of $2/week are not nutritionally balanced. They’ll consist largely of starches–rice, root vegetables, fufu, depending on where you live. There may be vegetables if the adults have a place to grow them (not likely in the overcrowded slums that plague many cities in the country the author idealizes) and time to tend to them outside the jobs they’re working to survive. Meat is rare.
It is not so much the “nobility of the poor” that people are still able to be happy in these situations. It’s that these situations are all they know, and everyone else around them is in the same situation. It’s pretty well-documented that any man’s contentment with his living situation is determined not so much by his quality of life in relation to those who live a continent away, but by how his living situation compares to those around them. If you took those Columbians and placed them in the middle of an upscale suburb but maintained their current living situation, they would certainly not be as happy once their affiliated themselves with the immediate neighborhood and did not continue to compare their success with that of their old Columbian neighbors.
This article is well-intentioned but smacks of white Western tourist and Rich Man’s Guilt.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:34 am
god, not another one of these we are so spoiled and unhappy posts compared to LDCs and UDCs. i’ve worked, traveled, and lived in nearly 80 countries and civilization is a darn nice thing. if you want a simple life, then do so, but stop whining about how poor people are compared to you and that is why we should think twice about how we live. it’s rather silly. if people make $1/day, it’s because it doesn’t cost much to live; whereas, in developed countries it cost more to live. shocking! i agree with Emily, it is the Western tourist and Rich Man’s Guilt that leads people to throw a dollar here and a dollar there around in foreign countries without understanding the consequences of “it’s only a dollar” mentality–that is, giving $1 in a country with people earning average of $1200/yr is like giving $30 to a person in a country averaging $30,000/yr. Now would you really dismiss $1 if you knew it was actually worth $30? I don’t think so.
it must be nice to say how happy columbians are coming from a rich country, and having the choice of “retiring” in columbia. i’m sure if you were raised in the same class in columbia, you wouldn’t be saying the same thing.
i’m sure life is so much better, happier, and simpler in all these countries to such a degree that people in these countries have the utmost desire to remain there for the rest of their lives if they had the choice. i’m sure there is no reason why people in these happier countries risk life, limb and life savings to get out of these countries by the droves.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:48 am
“Materialism will inevitably produce the kind of society where people know the price of everything, but the value of nothing; where people have a great deal to live on, but very little to live for…”
July 28th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Speaking of helping others. J.D. please tell all your readers about the members project. For each Am Ex member who votes am ex will give $1 to a winning charity up to $5 mil. Right now only 40k people have voted though. I wrote up some details about it and my favorite project at:
http://armchairfiduciary.blogspot.com/2007/07/american-express-cardholder-hurry-up.html
July 28th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Where’s the strong language? I didn’t see any. You aren’t talking about using the word “hell”, are you? Don’t make me laugh!
July 28th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
THANK YOU to Rita, Steve, Tim and everyone else who is debunking this guilt-ridden, politically correct, oh-so-en-vogue America-bashing post.
BTW — Brazilian guy — sorry, but Brazil isn’t exactly a model of how an economy should function (that’s a major understatement). Please don’t criticize Americans in that regard, or for our race relations here.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
I just have to say, great post. Thank you.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Its a very well-written post reflecting your opinion. No lifestyle can be good or bad, if some Americans are happy with branded items and latest gadgets then let them enjoy that, if some are unhappy, then they need to re-evaluate their life. It just depends on a person’s perspective. In developing countries family acts as the support system, when people are deprived of many things, human relations assume great significance. Every country has its pros and cons. Agreed that there are alot of problems in developing countries, many people leave but many more remain too. Its never wise to generalize. This remains a great post which just reflects your observations.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
I live in Australia and I feel lucky just to wake up every day in a country where I’m not dodging bullets or disease or starvation. I don’t think anyone wants to live in poverty, but maybe we just need to look at the source of our happiness. My youngest son’s friends whinge about their latest $1000 X Box (yes that’s about how much they cost here - with all the trimmings) so I think that a sense of perspective is what’s wanting.
I wouldn’t give up living in this country (which also happens to have the best cricket team in the world) for anything, but it makes me appreciate it all the more when I see how others live - has anyone been to Cambodia lately? There is a sense of joy and sincere appreciation when they receive the most basic of gifts. I saw this post not as a matter of who’s best and who has what, I saw it more as a “let’s appreciate what we’ve got and mabybe help out those who are less materialisticly fortunate”. (By the way, I’m not so callous as to think that there aren’t homeless and destitute people in Australia - but I also know that there are volunteers in organisations that are available to help them, there are caring counselors at the end of a phone and there is a welfare system that is set up to make sure no one has to starve). There are also heaps of jobs available for anyone who wants to work.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
If everyone in Mexico is so happy and content, then why do they sneak across the border into our country, rather than us sneaking across the border into their country, and why do the ones who sneak across send money back to Mexico, rather than just enjoying the fruits of their labour for themselves??
Also, the gov’t has recently increased the number of LVN and RN positions available for work Visas, so pretty soon nursing and medical care at $8 an hour are going to be some of those jobs “that Americans don’t want to do”.
jerkoff
July 29th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Re the Nursing and medical care comment:
That’ll be right in line after all the customer service and computer programming jobs that Americans don’t want to do. At my company,where I am in a large IT department, probably 1/2-23rds of our IT staff are either Indians (from India) that my company has sponsored to come to the US or Indians sitting in Bangalore but on our software development staff. Oh yes — and in the meantime every year our company needs to do staff reductions in the hundreds to get rid of redundant (e.g., higher paid) Americans in the same job position.
Yes, I feel the job security now.
DB
July 29th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I’m trying to understand. Are there not enought nurses or IT people in our country? (USA) What’s really going on here? I should think we’d have plenty of people here that (with education) could do those jobs. Is our education system falling short? And why would an American want to incur huge debt to get educated in these fields, only to earn $8.00 an hour. Somebody give me a clue as to what the goal of the United States is for its citizens…I’m feeling a little lost here…
July 29th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
It’s really saddening to see how many people in these comments took offense to the original post and thought it was meant as an attack against Americans, or a “first world guilt trip”, or some such nonsense.
There are plenty of ways of living, and the American one is not necessarily the best. It’s one option, with advantages and disadvantages. It’s easy to think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, which is why the original post saw a lot of the advantages of lifestyles in other countries, without looking much at the disadvantages. Similarly, many people (including Americans) see only the advantages of the American lifestyle, without seeing the downsides.
I’m a proud Canadian, and I honestly believe that I live in the best country in the world. I think people in other countries have the right to hold the same belief about their countries as well.
What I find amazing, though, is how unwilling many Americans are to honestly look at the downsides to the “American dream” lifestyle.
Truly, money doesn’t buy happiness, which is why poor people in many countries can be perfectly happy with their lot in life, and many rich Americans (and rich people elsewhere) can be miserable. Having deep friendships and bonds with family goes a lot further to creating happiness than a high net worth ever could.
Phew… too many thoughts for a comment…
July 29th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
No, there is nothing wrong with our education system. it comes down to economics. the companies don’t want to pay $20 an hour for a nurse to change bedpans (that’s what corporate thinks), so they bring someone over on Visa for $10. It’s called paying below market wage because they don’t care whether their employees get rich or not. Jobs that are profit centers (sales) are taken care of; cost centers, like IT and medical services, are pruned. Same as fast food and crop picking.
However, that’s not really the point of this article. The point is that judgements of whether the way someone lives in Mexico is superior to the way someone lives in the US are not of value. The ‘facts’, the differences might be of value because they might consist of something that we haven’t considered - so just present the ‘facts’ and let us decide which we want to do.
I’m also pretty sure that there’s a Taj Mahal in India, so i’m not sure that it’s particularly accurate to suggest that Indians, or anyone else from any other country, are more ‘comfortable’ in their poverty than anyone in the US is. We can see what they build when they get some extra money.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Thanks for the insight beanspants1. Sorry I got a little off topic.
Sorry I used the term “3rd world”. No, I do say words that are derogatory to a race of people. Certainly not. I was not aware of the new terminology of developing nation.
George I’m not sure that I understood your comment “how unwilling many Americans are to honestly look at the downsides to the “American dream” lifestyle.” You might be stereotyping Americans a little. We are not all money grubbing fools.
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement “Having deep friendships and bonds with family goes a lot further to creating happiness than a high net worth ever could.” I would add that I don’t think it is necessary to choose one or the other. There are people that are relatively wealthy that have fantastic relationships. It’s all about balance and I would say that in most cases it requires very hard work but it’s do-able to have both. Having extra money is nice-you can take your family on a vacation now and then or just go places without having to worry about where the money is coming from. You can also give more when you have money. I feel it is almost my duty to have extra money because I won’t squander it on silly things-I will use it to help someone.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
[...] over at Get Rich Slowly has a controversial post titled What Developing Nations Can Teach Us About Personal Finance. J.D. has generated quite a discussion on this topic. I see that there are some who accept that our [...]
July 29th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I’ve lived with, worked with, and taught the children of illegal immigrants. beanpants1 generalizes that ALL Mexicans want to come here. Only the most desperate want to come here. For those, the possibility of death is not a deterrent. Those with a middle class or better existence stay put.
I took a job in a factory, which maybe beanpants1 has done, where illegals worked despite me being college educated. Many of the illegals would ask me why I would do it with my education and being a citizen. This tells me that in their experience, Americans usually DON’T do those jobs, especially if they have education.
I spoke with HR. They tried hiring locals, but they only last a week or two. I was skeptical until I worked with locals. Sure enough, they lasted just a week or two. But the illegals stuck it out the whole season.
I won’t say that people from other countries are superior to us. This is a great country. I won’t say that we are superior to them, because I saw firsthand that we can’t hack it. What I WILL say is that we THINK we are superior to everybody.
Just wait until the baby boomers start retiring. We’ll see if immigrants are not welcome.
In case you think I just fell off the turnip truck, check the web for Shaine Mata. I know.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Having lived in a few different countries, both developing & developed, I can safely say that each country has its positives & negatives. There’s something to learn in each country and there’s something that could be learnt by that country.
I don’t think the point of this post was to suggest that Columbia and Mexico were somehow absolutely better than the US which appears to be how some have taken it.
But there are certainly positives from those countries to learn from if people are open-minded and humble enough to receive it.
There are certain undeniable problems with the US and other developed countries. Escalating consumer debt, a far greater ‘footprint’ in terms of use of energy and natural resources, the list could go on.
We would be far better facing up the problem and to the reality that we may actually have things to learn from developing countries (as they do vice versa) than to get angry and make comments verging on bigotry & xenophobia.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
People in developing countries are happy and poor? I dont think so; westerners travelling to third world countries come in contact with a very small part of the population. Trust me..the majority is unhappy that thier relatives died since they could not afford medical care, they are unhappy because thier children wont get to go to proper school. Of course they wont express it to a guy who came all the way from the U.S. of A !!! It would’nt be proper and would’nt do any good. So they smile for the american anyways…
July 29th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Well — I think the “American Dream” has morphed (mutated?) over the years.
In the 50s, families were all excited to get a newfangled thing called a television, and they were probably excited and content to have one car in the driveway. Mom stayed at home, and “Home” was that smallish house that today everybody wants to tear down to build a McMansion. When I think of the “American Dream”, I still think of the 50s ideal, not the present ideal.
The present ideal — well, somewhere along the way it seemed to be that we couldn’t make our houses big enough, or own too many cars, or too many other gizmos. I’m reminded of a poster that was in a lot of dorms when I was in college during the late ’80s that showed a row of expensive cars in the garage and had words to the effect of “Signs of Conspicuous Consumption”. Conspicuous consumption seems to have usurped the American dream.
At one time (like, during my grandmother’s youth), it was a lot more common for extended American families to live at home, and people didn’t have the same expectations for acquiring more. I’m sure we weren’t perfect then, but there are a lot of things about the way America used to be that I miss. I find our culture increasingly cold and unforgiving. I don’t really think it’s due to consumerism — I think it’s due to our cult of the individual, which of course includes the license to consume but it’s really much more about demanding that everybody give the individual space to be whoever they want (although the individual feels perfectly justified to trash anybody they disapprove of).
Now, of course — it’s easy to talk about happy Columbians and the like. You’ll also find a goodly number of people who really want nothing more than to adopt the American model of “Consume or Die”.
July 30th, 2007 at 4:43 am
“Trust me..the majority is unhappy that thier relatives died since they could not afford medical care, they are unhappy because thier children wont get to go to proper school.”
I think there is a solid minority in the USA that is unhappy because they can’t afford medical care or send their children to a proper school.
People who don’t know about wine can probably describe to you two varieties: white and red. Somebody who knows about wine can probably describe the intricacies and variations between 200 kinds of wine.
People who don’t know about the world might be able to describe two varieties: developing countries and developed countries. Somebody knowledgeable about the world could probably describe the intricacies and variations between 200 countries.
My point: there are a LOT of countries in the world, and a LOT of variation both between and within all of those countries. It’s impossible to come up with generic statements that apply to the “majority” of people in a large part of the world.
There are plenty of happy people in the world that don’t have access to American-style schools or American-style health care. That doesn’t mean they’re unhappy about it, and it doesn’t mean that they think it’d be desirable.
In any event, there are quite a few countries in the world that have better education and health care systems than that of the USA. Some of them would be considered “third world” countries by many Americans.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:36 am
“They do the work that we refuse to do, in many cases earning less than minimum wage”
What you really mean is, they do the work that we refuse to *for the extremely low wage that is offered, so instead of raising that wage, as is normal practice in any other business, employers opt to actually break the law and hire a slave class of foreign nationals who will work at that wage despite the rampant abuse and horrid working conditions because its marginally better than what they would have to face in their third world nation because they think people won’t pay 30 cents more for their lettuce*.
Common mistake.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:39 am
also, “third world” is not an insult. it means ‘developing’, as in the economy of that country is still developing.
July 30th, 2007 at 9:33 am
1. Americans like to buy stuff.
2. Americans like cheap stuff.
3. Americans don’t like to work for little money because they need to buy stuff.
4. Americans are happy to pay a third world country to make their stuff for them.
5. Americans need a bigger house to store all their stuff.
6. Americans need big cars and one family needs at least 2 cars (more stuff).
7. Americans need their oil to run their large SUVs and power all their stuff.
8. Americans are either lazy or too busy working to buy stuff so they don’t eat properly.
9. Americans eat junky processed food and get fat.
10. Americans are fat
11. Americans spend more money on health care.
12. Americans don’t think about waste.
13. Americans are big green house gas contributors.
Note: generalizations are on purpose.
Solutions are in that list. Just reverse each item.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
The take-away point in this post is “Live within your means” and that applies to any country and any world. Though at times you do feel in author’s tone as if he’s asking you to live frugally. But I think what he’s trying to say is that if people earning less can live without debts then why can’t people earning more. The key word here is “affordability”. Think before you buy and buy, whether on credit or cash, only if you’ve the ability to pay for it today (except for big things like a house).
I don’t see what’s wrong in living in a mansion if one can afford one. Or buying nice organic food: I don’t wish to and I can afford not to subject my body to harmful pesticides. When it comes to driving an SUV against cycling or using public transportation, it’s a different issue. Being an eco-friendly person, I think we should all try to use as little of personal transportation as possible.
When people say that they’re happy living in 100/200 sq ft boxes, I don’t think that they’re trying to say that everyone should give up his/her 2-3 bedroom house and do the same. The point I glean from it is that if you can’t afford to buy a 2-3 bedroom house then buy a smaller one. You’ll be happier that way rather than buy the house and submerge in debt.
July 30th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I really enjoyed this.
I travelled over southeast asia for 6 weeks last year. In cambodia, everyone is worse off than we are. Yet I didn’t see a single beggar there!
thanks!
July 30th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
1. Lower cost of living. You could live in a very comfortable middle class with around $900 here in the Philippines - and that’s already in the city. $500 or even less would let you live comfortably in the provinces.
2. Conversion. The purchasing power of the USD goes a long way in developing countries.
3. There are always spenders and savers.
Comparing US lifestyle and spending behavior to developing countries might just be comparing the same spending behavior but on different spending ranges.
PHP 30,000 or $600/mo full-time salary is considered to be a very competitive middle-level management already (only multinationals can afford to pay that much). They have the choice between renting an upscale 1-bedroom condo in the city at PHP 25,000 or $550/mo or live with their parents (default choice).
Most people (”the masses”) don’t earn more than $400/mo. These are people with families so they make do with what they earn, spend with their credit cards, go to pawnshops, leech off family and friends, “invest” in lotto tickets, or try to win a million cash prize on a game show. Yet it’s quite common to have a nanny AND a housemaid.
So they’re really still just spenders (80% or ALL of their salary) but on a lower spending range than Americans.
July 31st, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Dennis,
1. Americans like to buy stuff. and other people don’t?
2. Americans like cheap stuff. and other people don’t?
3. Americans don’t like to work for little money because they need to buy stuff. and other people don’t?
4. Americans are happy to pay a third world country to make their stuff for them. and other people don’t?
5. Americans need a bigger house to store all their stuff. and other people don’t?
6. Americans need big cars and one family needs at least 2 cars (more stuff). and other people don’t?
7. Americans need their oil to run their large SUVs and power all their stuff. and other people don’t?
8. Americans are either lazy or too busy working to buy stuff so they don’t eat properly. and other people don’t?
9. Americans eat junky processed food and get fat. and other people don’t?
10. Americans are fat. and other people aren’t?
11. Americans spend more money on health care. and other people don’t?
12. Americans don’t think about waste. and other people do?
13. Americans are big green house gas contributors. and other people aren’t?
George said, “In any event, there are quite a few countries in the world that have better education and health care systems than that of the USA. Some of them would be considered “third world” countries by many Americans.” which ones would these be?
anyways, u.s. has faults as do many other countries. so what? really, if life is so bad, then fix it. there are plenty of people that risk everything to fix their lives. if you are an unhappy american, then do something about it. you do have a choice to do so.
July 31st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Tim, I’m not going to respond to each and every “and other people don’t?” comment, other than to make the general point that no, not everybody in the world thinks and acts like Americans do.
George said, “In any event, there are quite a few countries in the world that have better education and health care systems than that of the USA. Some of them would be considered “third world” countries by many Americans.” which ones would these be?
Canada. Sweden. Japan. France. Cuba.
Of course, it’s hard to quantitatively measure complex things like health care and education and come up with definitive rankings, but many people would agree that the above countries have better (or at least more widely available) health care and education systems than the USA.
Cuba, in particular, would be considered “third world” by many Americans.
My intent is not to point out that the USA has faults, or that other countries are somehow “better”. My point is that it’s useful to learn about the world before coming to the conclusion that your country is the “best” place or way to live.
August 1st, 2007 at 6:12 am
What I see in the angry comments seems to be the defining debate maneuver of our era: set your own standards and values as the baseline of “reasonable” and define everything different from them accordingly, as “unreasonable.” It begs the question.
For example, one person wrote, “This article…ignores the fact that millions of Americans are living in conditions of poverty [b]y U.S. Standards. That is what is important!”
What is important is that the real message gets across: standards of luxury have no basis in reality. Those standards are artificial, and therefore, changeable.
Live on less; invest the difference.
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:48 am
[...] a house maid ($2/day) to take care of laundry, cleaning the house, and tending to the children. We spend too like the Westerners but we manage to keep the costs [...]