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Three Questions About Money and Ethics Print
Friday, 21st September 2007 (by J.D.)This article is about Choices, Psychology
Lady Kemma recently wrote with a question about money and ethics:
Last week I went out with my work department. After feeding 30 people, all with individual checks, I left the harried waitress a generous tip. My colleague said, “You’re leaving too much tip.” I said, “The poor lady earned it.” I left the money on the cash tray and got up to leave. My colleague proceeded to take some of the money off my cash tray and put it in her pocket. Since I only have to deal with this lady once a year, I let it go. Thoughts?
Dilemmas like this fascinate me. There are so many things going on at once, it’s difficult to make a smart decision on the spot. I like to think I would have challenged my colleague — I’ve waited tables, and if I leave a tip for someone, nobody had better touch it. On the other hand, I’m often afraid to make a scene, so maybe I would have kept my mouth shut. I don’t know. Just two hours after Lady Kemma sent her question, Kris and I faced a similar situation, but in reverse.
I took Kris to lunch at my favorite Chinese restaurant last Saturday. The bill was $10.25. I left a $1.75 tip. “That’s not enough,” Kris said. “Why not?” I asked. “There’s a certain minimum you need to leave, no matter what the bill,” she told me. “That’s crazy,” I said. “I usually leave $6 when I order a $4.50 lunch on my own. That’s 33%!” When we got up to leave, she put an extra $2 on the table. Is there a minimum tip amount? What is it? (I’m not asking about 10%, 15%, 20% — I’m asking about actual dollars and cents.)
Finally, from the September 2005 Boston Review, here’s one of my favorite money dilemmas:
Mike is supposed to be the best man at a friend’s wedding in Maine this afternoon. He is carrying the wedding rings with him in New Hampshire, where he has been staying on business. One bus a day goes directly to the coast. Mike is on his way to the bus station with 15 minutes to spare when he realizes that his wallet has been stolen, and with it his bus tickets, his credit cards, and all his forms of ID.
At the bus station Mike tries to persuade the officials, and then a couple of fellow travelers, to lend him the money to buy a new ticket, but no one will do it. He’s a stranger, and it’s a significant sum. With five minutes to go before the bus’s departure, he is sitting on a bench trying desperately to think of a plan. Just then, a well-dressed man gets up for a walk, leaving his jacket, with a bus ticket to Maine in the pocket, lying unattended on the bench. In a flash, Mike realizes that the only way he will make it to the wedding on time is if he takes that ticket. The man is clearly well off and could easily buy himself another one.
Should Mike take the ticket?
The “correct” answer to this final moral dilemma varies from culture-to-culture. In the U.S., most people would say, “No, Mike should not take the ticket.” But, as the article explains, in other parts of the world, an overwhelming majority of people believe the right thing to do is for Mike to take the ticket — personal relationships and contractual obligations are more important. (The Boston Review article isn’t about personal finance, but it’s absolutely fascinating — read it if you have a chance.)
September 21st, 2007 at 5:21 am
#1. i would have asked the lady for the money back. if i decide to give it to the waiter, thats my decision. i did not decide to give the colleague the money. if i wanted to , i would have handed it to her.
2. there is no minimum, it runs by %. otherwise why wouldnt you go out for a nicer lunch all of the time, you will be paying for it anyways.
3. i might take the ticket, but i dont say that this is the right thing. this is just how i am, and it wouldnt be malicious, but sometimes i overstep the line if necessary.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:44 am
My husband and I always tip generously. We usually share meals at restaurants and drink water. So our bill is usually aroudn $10 or $15, but we usually tip as if we ordered separate meals. Granted we only eat out once a month or so.
I feel that being generous is part of good money management. Often when we start being frugal we can go too far and saving money becomes too important to us. I want to save money so I can be generous when an opportunity comes up.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:56 am
Outrageous that the colleague stole the money! She might as well have pinched it straight from LK’s wallet!
September 21st, 2007 at 6:00 am
#1- I would have told the lady off. It’s not her business how much I tip.
#2. I think it depends. When I worked as a waiter in undergrad, our restaurante would have .99 draw happy hour. People would come in and order tons of beer but no food. I had to work my butt of pouring and bringing their brew to them. If there was a table of 4 and each one ordered 10 beers, that’s 50 beers I had to serve. On top of that they always stayed a long time, thus holding up a table I could use for other customers. When they’d finally leave, each would leave about a buck for a tip. Not cool considering the work.
But other than that, I was happy just to get 15% from people. You’d be surprised how very few people actually tip that.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:12 am
(1) I would absolutely tell my co-worker to put the tip money back on the table. She certainly has no right to the money and I would be kind but very firm on that point.
(2) I’m with your wife on this. I do think there is a “minimum” amount that one should tip on a lunch or dinner. The amount of work for the wait staff for a $5 meal and $10 meal is the same.
(3) I don’t know. Anyway to take the ticket but then send the ‘rich’ man the money at a later date. I wouldn’t feel right about taking the ticket.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:14 am
My husband’s (former waiter) comment on #1 was that some people will do anything — even steal from a colleague! — to make sure the server doesn’t get “too much” of a tip! We usually tip 20%.
On #2, I don’t think there’s a minimum amount, except speaking to Brett’s comment, I do think it’s common wisdom that you should give a bartender about $1 a drink or at least $1.50 for two. And I think etiquette (and kindness) says you should tip a server what you would tip on the full price if you get a good deal. Otherwise, in most restaurants, the server is paying to wait on you — their wage usually doesn’t cover the taxes on what the IRS expects tips will be.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:14 am
I guess my opinion on tipping varies. My friend group has always left a minimum of $1 per person and goes up from there based on service and meal price. I’d say we average out to 20% most of the time, and we generally spend too much money when we do go out.
On taking the ticket, I couldn’t do it.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:14 am
#1- Settling checks for 30 people is damned hard work, and so, I think the colleague is a thief. How horribly presumptuous of this person to assume to take the money out of the tray and pocket it.
Shame shame shame.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:22 am
1. Wow. This redefines my definition of CHEAP. To *steal* a portion of a tip *someone else* gave because she thought it was too much. Just, WOW. If I was LK, I’d have very publicly announced what she was doing and made her put the money back for the waitress.
2. It’s a personal choice. For me I don’t tip less than $5 even if the meal was only $6. They way I see it, they’re doing the same job whether it’s $6 of food or $60 (which isn’t to say I only tip $5; I typically tip 20-50% of a tab). Tipping less is an insult to their effort imo, and only done when the waiter/tress isn’t doing their job.
3. I’d have given him back the jacket then asked if he could help a fellow out.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:30 am
Certainly it makes sense to leave extra tip for a larger party like that, but the colleague is a thief, no matter whether the tip was deserved or not. It wasn’t her money to take! How rude. I would like to say I’d have called her on it, but like J.D., I’m not sure if I’d be willing to make a scene.
Interesting comment from #6 about how that is not an uncommon sort of thing for people to do. It’s bad enough to leave an insufficient tip oneself, but to steal money that someone else left, how crazy can you be?
September 21st, 2007 at 6:33 am
The colleague is a thief. She voiced her opinion and should have left it at that. She wasn’t the one leaving the tip, it wasn’t up to her to decide how much was left. And to have the gall put the money in her own pocket is outright theft.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:42 am
#1 - Yeah that wouldn’t fly with me, I would tell the colleague to put the money back - that just aint cool on so many leveles
#2 While I do think there is a minimum amount, it’s personal decision that I think is pretty justifiable ither way
#3 It’s not just question of culture, it’s also a reflection of means. I think it’s easy for those who have plenty to get on a moral high horse, but many people are “forced” to morally difficult decision. Like the classic philosophy question posed about stealing to pay for drugs to save your daughter.
September 21st, 2007 at 6:43 am
1. I’d inform the woman that she has no business telling me how to spend my money, nor to help herself to it if she disagrees with me. I’d avoid going out with her in the future, if at all possible.
2. I tend to tip a higher percent if it’s a smaller bill, or, if I know I’m a lot of work. If I go out with friends & only get a cup of coffee, I may leave 2-3 dollars tip. The waitress refilled my coffee all night & we were probably not exactly easy customers. I think the whole tipping industry sucks though. Until you get into the *really* high-end restaurants were waiters are trained in wine & other things, it’s pretty much the same work to wait on you whether it’s a $7 meal at a diner or a $20 meal at a brewpub.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:00 am
#1. Unless the person was someone that I had a large stake in impressing (such as a potential business client), I would not only take back the money, but I would leave an additional tip if I could spare it just to spite the person.
#2. I don’t think there is a minimum that you should feel you have to tip. That said, I think tipping is a function of the service that you receive for your meal amount. For example, if the Chinese restaurant in question were a buffet and all the waiter did was refill drinks, I’d only leave a straight 10-15% of the bill. By counter example, if I only ordered a drink that costs $1.50, I would be inclined to leave at least 50 cents if I had gotten several refills and he did a good job of keeping up with when I needed one.
Interestingly, I know some people (such as my mother-in-law) who think there is a minimum percentage that you should tip irrespective of the service that you receive because “they don’t make a lot of money”. I completely disagree with this. The only way that they will learn to perform better is by recognizing that their service was bad and that they need to improve. If the person apologizes, I am more forgiving than if they are oblivious.
#3. If it were the only option remaining, I would take the ticket.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:01 am
1. That lady should definitely be confronted. Seriously, that is basically stealing from the waitress or you.
2. I think there is a minimum and I always round up to the nearest dollar for typical restaurant style dining.
3. It is wrong to steal. Seriously. Call your friends, relatives, etc… Stealing a loaf of bread to eat might be dismissed but anything beyond that is a moral lapse.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:10 am
Ok, as a former server and certified server-trainer, here are my answers.
On #1: a tip is, at its most basic, a gift from a customer to a service person; the person who “skimmed” the tip you left stole that money from the server every bit as much as if they took your kid’s allowance (which is also a gift from you to your kid).
On #2: no, there is no “minimum amount” to leave. The current etiquette is to leave about 18% as gratuity, but this is a *guideline*. If you do not get acceptable service, then it is perfectly ok to leave a smaller tip (or none at all) — if the server goes far above what’s required of them, leaving less than 18% is outright rude, and I’d even recommend tipping more if you’re there regularly. Servers remember people who reward service, and those who tip cheaply after getting good service — they work for tips, and will therefore allocate their efforts where they will make the most money.
However, please also remember that in many establishments servers are limited to taking a certain number of tables. If you come in when the restaurant is full and just order dessert, please realize that you’re taking up a table that might be dinners, and be a little more generous than usual.
My tipping guidelines:
* Meals are about 18% of the ticket.
* “Snacks” — going to a place that primarily serves meals just for appetizers or dessert, for example — get 20% of the ticket plus $1 or so per person if the place is busy at the time.
* Bar rounds are $1 per round, up to 4 drinks; more if I ask for involved or specialty drinks (like anything in a blender), or if it’s a large round. For very large rounds, I tip about 10%.
* Buffets with good drink and busing service, I leave $1 per person. If there are no servers, I will leave $1 or so per table depending on the quality of the busing service.
I use the bar rule for coffee baristas (except at one shop that pours art in my latte, they get larger tips, because that’s just awesome).
Also, poor service gets little or no tip — I prefer little because the staff then knows I didn’t just forget. However, if your service was poor enough to withold tip, please take the time to say something to management — no manager wants your experience to be that poor.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:11 am
Wow, #1 is really bad. That’s just flat out stealing. I may have let it slip if the colleague was your superior, otherwise I would have given them a piece of my mind.
#2 is a little more tricky. I do think there is a minimum that you should tip as long as the service is good. I think it really depends on the situation, how many people were being served, what kind of food was ordered, etc… However, I don’t think it’s $6 in most cases. I usually won’t go below $2 in most cases.
For number 3 I think the answer is absolutely not. Putting aside all of the moral questions about whether or not it’s ok to steal from the rich, there’s no way in our society that you can tell that someone is rich just by the way they dress. He could be a salesman who has to dress up for his job but makes very little money. He could be a poor college student wearing the only suit he has to an interview. He could be up to his ears in debt paying for all those fancy clothes. There’s just no way to be certain just how wealthy he is, therefore it’s wrong to take the ticket.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:17 am
Brandon said:
“The only way that they will learn to perform better is by recognizing that their service was bad and that they need to improve.”
Unfortunately I don’t think this is true. The problem is that there are a lot of people who leave crappy tips regardless of how good the service was. So if a customer leaves a bad tip most waiters aren’t going to blame themselves, they just think the customer was a jackass.
Like radiantmatrix said, a tip is basically a gift from the customer to the server, so just give them what you think they deserve. If they give you poor service, then feel free to tip them accordingly, but don’t expect it to change their attitude towards customers in the future.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:23 am
Ha.. There’s an old movie, “My Blue Heaven,” where Steve Martin’s character tips everyone, he says, “I don’t believe in tipping, I believe in overtipping.” At one point, he tips $100 to the FBI guy who arrests him.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:27 am
Wow. I’m stuck on #1! Yeah I would have confronted the woman. I might even have threatened bodily harm if she didn’t immediately rectify the situation. So very not cool.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:34 am
1. I agree with the herd. It’s stealing, and it’s stealing from the waitress.
2. Reading the discussion here has been interesting. First, I do tend to tip higher on smaller bills, sometimes substantially higher.
On alcohol, though… I was actually taught that you were not supposed to include the price of alcohol when calculating your tip, if you ordered it with a dinner. I see almost noone do this, however. It comes up most often in professional situations, for me, eg when taking a company guest out to a nice dinner where a not-cheap bottle of wine is ordered. Any thoughts?
September 21st, 2007 at 7:37 am
Lady Kemmas ‘colleague’ is a thief. That money CLEARLY belonged to the waitress. In any event, the money did NOT come from the colleagues purse and should never have ended up there. Moreover, the domineering ‘colleague’ was out of line for passing judgment on how much LK should tip. Management should be quietly informed of this, as it is revelatory of the other womans’ character.
There is NO minimum gratuity. It is a voluntary reward for service rendered and not an automatic part of the tab. Look up the word gratuity in a dictionary. When I get lousy service, the server gets a lousy tip. We’re even. When I get great service, the tip can be more than the tab itself. The server, in my case, sets the tip level. For ordinary service, I’ll give 15% - 20% … but the service involved in setting a cup of coffee on a lunch counter really doesn’t warrant a large tip. If that cup got refilled 6 times, the tip will grow exponentially because I know that the server could have been collecting percentage tips from customers with larger tickets.
I don’t know about the bus ticket. I think I like Andrews answer better than any other I could come up with. But, if that ploy doesn’t work, I also think that Mike needs to ask himself which is worth more … that ticket or his personal integrity. He has made a critical promise to his friend, but life is like that … sometimes our mouths make promises our tails can’t keep. Not being there on time might cost him the friendship. Stealing the ticket WILL cost him his integrity. When he explains to the friend what he has done, he may lose the friend anyways. I know that I am not comfortable trusting and associating with known thieves.
Meanwhile, back at the wedding, if his friend isn’t more concerned for Mikes welfare than about the rings, something was not right to start with. The wedding is still a wedding without the rings, but if I have put that much trust in someone and they didn’t fulfill that serious obligation, my first concern would be for the upset of my bride but, hard on its heels, I’d be looking into finding out what had happened to my best friend. Maybe what Mike should do is ask to use the phone so he can call the groom and let him know what has happened and let the friend begin a rescue effort by wiring Mike enough money to get a room and a meal for the night and a bus ticket for the next day.
If Mike still has sufficient conscience that the unattended jacket poses a dilemma and not simply an opportunity, the theft will dog him for years yet to come. (see 2 Timothy 3:1-5)
September 21st, 2007 at 8:07 am
I think this is an interesting topic, but as far as the third situation goes -
What happens when the guy comes back for his coat and is trying to get on the bus? (”Rich” guys don’t ever take the bus! So he will definitly come back for his coat!)His ticket is obviously been stolen and you have been running around begging a ticket off people and there you are on the bus! Who do you think is the first person everyone is going to turn around and look at?
September 21st, 2007 at 8:27 am
Rachel, that’s an interesting point.
Also, I’ve edited the post to add why other cultures might feel it’s okay to take the ticket. Like most people here, I think it’s stealing. But I can see how in other cultures it might be the lesser of the two evils…
September 21st, 2007 at 8:30 am
We tip well when we go out to dinner, we know we’re going to, so we just budget that in to the price of dinner. But, I don’t tend to use the tip jar at the coffee shop where I get my daily tea (I used to throw in my change but now the cost is $2.00 and I usually have the two bills)–somehow, I think that being a regular customer should mean something to the shop and in that kind of situation there’s no relationship to service, what is going on is that I’m helping the owner pay for sales help. That doesn’t seem right, to be responsible for wages in a coffee shop. I think in those cases the wages should just be more, and paid for by higher prices overall, not the kindness of some customers.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:39 am
#1. I would be LIVID. I would promptly and as nice as possible to put the money back. If they didn’t I would lose it no doubt. I can’t believe someone has the gall to do that. They had ZERO claim to that money. It was either the person who left it or the waitress PERIOD. Like another person said that is no different than taking straight from their wallet/pocket. I would not be able to trust that person after that. I often do the same and sometimes people comment but nothing beyond that. I do wait until everyone else has tipped though because I have noticed people will shirk their tip if I tip larger.
#2 I base it all on service. I never look at percentages. If they did good they can get a regular tip but if it was great service I have in fact tipped 100% on a lunch bill like that.
#3 sketchy. If he did take it totally write down the person’s name etc. Mail them an anon apology and some cash later.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:44 am
It blows my mind that her colleague would just take that money. I would have made a scene, just like I do for lazy people who can’t walk five feet from the elevator to the escalator when people with strollers or wheelchairs (who actually NEED the elevator) are waiting behind them. Or the people who jump in front of those with wheelchairs to get on an elevator.
I would have said politely, please put that money back I did not give it to you. If that didn’t work I’d start talking very loudly about that person being a thief (or something similar). I don’t like stupid people.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:47 am
1 & 2
My tips are based off of the total performance of the waiter/waitress alone. The food can take forever to get to me but what I care most is if the waiter acknowledges it and keeps me up to date. I would like to get my water refilled when needed without asking. Checking up regularly is great. I do not like places that tack on gratuity for you so in that case I do not leave a tip since they are forcing it. If the service is great I will tip a minimum 15%. If not, you get what you deserve. Being in IT, I do not receive a tip on my performance of fixing computers, especially when I do it quick but that’s because I get paid. Don’t waiters and waitresses get paid too?
#3
This is a tough situation. You can take the ticket and take down his name so afterwards you can contact him and apologize and tell him the story. On the other hand you shouldn’t because it is stealing. You are basically doing what had happened to you.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
1. My husband and I always start a waiter/waitress out at $15 when we go out to eat at a nice restaurant. (Our meals typically run in the $60 range but if it’s over $100 we start them out higher) If they “just meet our needs” they earn the $15. If they “go above and beyond” they earn an additional $5. If they are truly bad they lose money based on the level of bad. I have given as little as $1 and a note of explanation to a waitress that was exceptionally rude and have given the $20 twice to very good service.
2. I typically give a minimum of $2 in tip when we eat on the cheap. If we have “talked” or taken up a great portion of the time at the table I’ve been known to give as much as $5.
3. I honestly am not sure what I would do in that situation other than maybe try to seek out the man to return his coat and quickly explain the situation to him hoping he has a kind heart.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:49 am
#1 - I agree with the herd - the lady was WAY out of line! The moment is past now, but I would avoid associating with her as much as possible - at the next group lunch, wait for her to sit, then pick someplace far away from her!
#2 - local taxes ar in the 7-8% range, so doubling the tax amount is an easy way to figure out how much 15% is. Then I adjust up or down based on how well they served me. I have no problems with cutting the tip severely if service is poor. If it is really bad, I don’t bother talking to the manager, I just never return there. If I get what I consider to be exceptuional service though, I make a point to find the manager and tell them. I don’t think this happens often enough, because I usually find the manager by asking the server to send him/her over, and the poor server’s eyes get that worried look. I reassure them, so this way they know, and the manager knows.
#3 - very tempting, but I don’t think I could take the ticket, plus, as Rachel pointed out, you’ll be the obvious suspect, and how’s is your arrest going to help you get to the wedding? If the friends are true friends, they may be upset for a while about the wedding, but they’ll also be concerned about you losing your wallet. They’ll understand that life intervened.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:50 am
#1 - I think that, since this was a business lunch, office politics came into play. Otherwise I would openly and loudly ask them what they were doing, and to put the money back. Being sure all 28 of the other people realized what just happened. But when the politics get involved, you have to ask whether confrontation is more important than the money. Despite how furious I’d be, I probably would not have said anything either just to keep the air clear when performance review time comes around. I would definitely have thrown in more money to raise the tip back up again though, probably giving it directly to the waitperson at that point.
#2 - I will usually leave no less than $2 for a tip for lunch and $3 for dinner. Work is work, and if they took care of me then I feel the obligation to take care of them. Most of all, I have a tendency to frequent the same places (especially when going out to lunch from work). So I definitely don’t want to build a reputation as a low tipper.
I notice that you mentioned it was your favorite Chinese place JD, so I assume you go there relatively frequently. Why would you not want to reward the people who provide you with good service over and over again?
As a side note, at some places I’ll even build a relationship with the managers. That way, if I get exceptionally good or bad service, they’ll know they can trust me as a frequent customer and act accordingly.
#3 - I like Andrew’s (9) and BillinDetroit’s (22) answers. As someone who has left their wallet at home 2 hours away for a weekend before though, there is absolutely NO way to get money. Any place that wires money will require an ID for whoever picks it up. You’re basically screwed until you get some form of ID again. (Which is why I now keep about $20 cash and a state-issued ID card stashed in my car.) Luckily I was with friends and they covered me for the weekend, though I still felt like a jackass.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am
1. It is clear that the woman was stealing, it’s not her business how much tip someone else decides to leave from their own pocket, nor was the money hers to take back.
2. It’s percentage as well as level of service. Relating to the above question - as everyone from the party had left individual checks for the waitress to process that is definitely worthy of a larger tip - anything that makes the waitress’ job more complicated should be factored in when you tip.
3. It would be interesting to know if this is a real or hypothetical example. In my experience of real life situations something usually works out. Bottom line - he shouldn’t take it, it’s stealing and that usually turns around and bites you in the butt later.
September 21st, 2007 at 8:59 am
@iarenoob (28):
Waitstaff may legally get paid below minimum wage. It is assumed that they will receive tips to supplement their income. This is why in places like grocery stores, they baggers are not supposed to take tips. If they accept tips, their pay can be reduced to below minimum wage also.
I also just thought of something for #3, probably the prime reason I would not just take the ticket. You have no idea why that person needs that ticket. What if he’s getting on the bus to see a dying relative, or some other important event same as you. This makes me want to support Andrew’s answer even more. Explain your situation. Show him the rings if you have to. (Actually don’t… Getting mugged because you’re carrying two expensive rings would be a bad thing.) Put the decision in his hands, and now suddenly he’s the one with the moral dilemma.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:16 am
I really dislike the tipping concept. I still tip at least 15%, but I would rather just pay 15% extra for the staff to get paid a living wage. I think it is the employer’s responsibility to pay their employees not the costumers. Plus tipping etiquette varies across professions. Wait staff, cab drivers, bell hops, and bar tenders all have different tipping standards and I don’t really care to keep up as I don’t go to bars, stay at hotels with bell hops, or use cabs.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:34 am
On situation #1, I was invited out to lunch by a co-worker who was at a much higher pay grade than me (I was a intern at the time, I think). The bill for the two of us came to $50 and he left a ridiculously low tip (around $2). He didn’t say anything about being unhappy with the food or the service– I got the impression that he was either a) really cheap or b) very bad at math. So we went back to the office together and I snuck out later and left some more money for the waiter with the hostess.
So for all the people out there who don’t understand why some people routinely tip >15%, it’s to make up for the other people who undertip.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:40 am
I have had many experiences that were similar to situation number one. They most often happen when a group of folks go out together and then when you count out the money everybody left on the table you realize that there is a sizeable tip left. Typically, if people feel that they each left the right amount, even if the total is higher than a normal tip, I say leave it. However, often people will leave more than they would normally because they don’t want to appear stingy infront of their frieds. In such case, if they want some of their money back, that’s fine too.
Taking money somebody else left is nuts.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:43 am
What a lot of folx seem to be missing also is that in a lot of states, servers make about $2.20 an hour. In Texas, servers make $2.13 an hour and we are taxed on the tips the government assumes we’ll get.
Yes, tips are a “gift,” but I will tell you that most of the time, unless I knew I was having a bad night (and I’m pretty honest about it) most people who don’t tip are just cheap jerks.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:43 am
@Shadox: Yeah, that’s a good point. I’ll often initially put in a bit over just to make sure we don’t collectively come out behind (or if I don’t have change), and then correct once we can see we’ve gotten enough… but, that’s pretty different from if it were all separate checks to begin with!
September 21st, 2007 at 9:47 am
1. I would have said something immediately. I would have smiled and said, loudly enough to be heard, “Excuse me, but what are you doing?” I’d use a tone that suggests that she made a mistake of some kind, if at all possible. I might even say, “Oh, I think you picked up the tip I left for the waitress by mistake.”
2. If I get good service, I don’t like to leave less than $5.
3. You don’t need a bible to tell you that it’s stealing. The guy isn’t going to starve or be otherwise harmed if he doesn’t make it to the wedding. The economic circumstances of the other person are irrelevant. You don’t steal from someone just because of an inconvenience. I could probably forgive someone for stealing if he were starving.
I’m appalled at the number of people here who have suggested that it would be okay to steal from another person just to go to a wedding.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:55 am
Situation #1 is plain-old theft.
That is *your* money while it’s on the table. When the waitstaff picks it up it becomes *their* money.
It’s no different than lifting it right out of your wallet.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:13 am
Maitresse (#38) makes a good point about the third question. Not making it to the wedding is just an inconvenience. The couple can still get married, you can still give them their rings later. It isn’t absolutely necessary that you be on that bus.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:24 am
Hi folks, just wanted to share my thoughts and experiences on tipping.
Considering how different things are here in the Philippines when it comes to tipping, I am not sure my comments will be entirely applicable. But just as an FYI, here, most people tip based on the money they have remaining. We would leave either a 20 pesos bill or a 50 peso bill (which is roughly 40-50 cents and 1.20 dollars respectively). There is generally no minimum customary tip in our culture, though there are those who do leave more, like 100 pesos or which is 2 dollars…
But we do have a ten percent service charge in most of our restaurants here, as well as a 12 percent Expanded Value added tax, so most diners feel we have paid for the service already, so to speak. Since I have been taught by my family to be relatively frugal, I leave 20-50 pesos only myself, sometimes less. It doesn’t make me a bad person, and the waiters dont give me nasty looks. Its just the way things are here. Just my two cents.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:36 am
#1- Is an act of theft. The money doesn’t belong to the co-worker.
#2- There is no “minimum tip”. A tip is a gratuity to the server because you appreciated their level of service. If I don’t feel like leaving my server a gift I’m not going to. If I feel like tipping $100 on a $5 meal, I’m going to do that. (Keep in mind that thus far I’ve never tipped $100 on a $5 meal, but I suppose it’s possible).
#3- Taking the ticket is an act of theft. Regardless of which culture you’re talking about I know of no nation that actively condones stealing (unless you’re a governmental official, in which case it’s called graft (no, it’s not taxes either, they’re specifically authorized by statute). Is “Mike” a governmental official?). If Mike takes the ticket he should be charged with a crime. This is arguably true for the person in scenario #1, however, for her she should start with a good lecture.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:39 am
Tradition (at least the way I was raised) where I live has would say good service gets 15% tip on the total ticket. Now, our sales tax here is 8.25%, so I usually double the tax and round to the nearest dollar.
I definitely agree that generosity is a key to financial contentment, but if you get poor service…the tip (or lack thereof) is how you communicate it. Unfortunately there are those who tip very little as their norm, no matter what quality of service they get.
However, if you will notice, many restaurants have begun ADDING 15% gratuity to parties of 8 or more. Do we tip again after the check is figured in a case like this?
To respond to the primary question, where the friend picked up part of the tip and pocketed it: that’s constitutes theft (either from me or the server), and I would question my relationship with that person.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:51 am
I think what colleague did was wrong, she tipped the waitress what she thought she deserved, doesn’t give the colleague the right to take money off the tray like that.
In that situation I would have let your colleagues leave and put the same amount of money back which the colleague had taken back, then confront the colleague away from the restaurant.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:02 am
Sheesh–the woman who took the tip money and put it in her pocket is a thief. Pure and simple.
As for the moral “dilemma” regarding the bus ticket–stealing the ticket is wrong. We’ve all heard “two wrongs don’t make a right”. “Mike” is just passing off his own trouble to another person–that’s not a solution.
Perhaps this “well-dressed” man is taking the bus to an interview, and he’s spent his savings to get his nice duds for the interview. I’ve been in similar situations myself when I was younger, but regardless no one has the right to steal from an innocent person to restore what was stolen from them!
September 21st, 2007 at 11:05 am
#1 I find it very interesting the ways people might handle this, especially in a work setting. I believe tipping to be a personal thing, and whatever an individual decides to leave is their business. However, I don’t believe scolding colleagues, even those rarely seen, to be a positive thing in public. If the co-workers were all at the same level, I’d put more money back in (even though it costs me more) and just give the total to the waitress directly.
If I’m splitting the bill with someone who is more senior than me who leaves a small tip, I’d find a polite and unobtrusive way to make up for it. It isn’t the amount of money a colleague makes that’s in question (in fact, I’d probably offer to pay, as this makes for good relations and networking. $80 is cheap for the insight and friendship they might offer).
Tipping, I’ve found, is a very personal thing and it is best to let people tip whatever they want. I’ve left tips in shared hotel rooms while my roomies left none, especially for longer stays. People can clearly see that you’re leaving money out and writing a note to the housekeeper saying “Thanks for a good job.” and they’ll put in money if they want to.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:24 am
Wait, you’re supposed to tip for hotel rooms? This had never even crossed my mind! Oh, dear. I hate this system.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:56 am
#1 That lady was way out of line.
#2 My husband and I have both worked food service gigs and we have a lot of friends who are bartenders. As they like to say, “Keep your quarters.” Rude? Maybe. But neither am I going to waste any time debating how much change to leave them. We leave whole-dollar tips, and if we’re eating at a sit-down place we never leave less than $3.
#3 I get that the situation is contrived exactly so that we feel conflicted, but this just wouldn’t happen - no way would the guy with the rings be taking the bus to the wedding. (I just got married, I should know.)
September 21st, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I do believe there is a minimum tip you should leave. There’s a rather fancy restaurant around here that runs about $12-15 a head at lunch (and dinner is outrageous). But they offer a special on Mondays and Wednesdays for $7.95 if you get there early enough before they run out. Whether I get the special or one of the regularly-priced meals, the waiter still has to take my order, bring my food, clear my plates, keep my drink filled and process my check. Why should he get half the tip he’s used to just because the food was half-price?
Another scenario - the kitchen lost your order, the steak was overcooked, etc. etc. - so the manager comped your meal. Would you seriously not still tip the waitress if it wasn’t her fault? I would absolutely tip based on what the ticket WOULD have been.
So yes, there is a minimum tip not solely based on X% of the bill. I usually try to figure what an average bill would be in this particular establishment and then tip 20% of that number or 20% of our actual bill-whichever is higher. And of course adjusted up or down based on service.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I had a version of the wallet problem in #3 happen to me:
I walked from home to the train station and hopped on the commuter train to NYC. Only to discover that I had neglected to put everything I needed in my bag! I had no celphone, no ID, no credit cards, no train pass, no subway pass, no quarters. As it happened, the train conductor recognized me (one of the nice side effects from me being regularly friendly to him) and let me continue on my journey. I walked to my destination (a school that I was volunteering at one day a week), and the security guard wouldn’t let me in without ID till he had called someone in the administration to look me up on their computer and verify that I had a right to be there. When I got inside, I didn’t meet anyone I recognized (it wasn’t my usual volunteer day). I used one of the public terminals to email my husband and ask him to take off work and meet me at the train station at X time. Then I finished my business at the school and walked back to Grand Central. Got on the train without a ticket, and politely asked the conductor to please allow me to ride to my stop, where my husband would meet the train and produce my ticket. Luckily it worked, and I was able to get home.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
#1 - I would have given that woman a piece of my mind. That money was in no way hers to take!! Is Lady Kemma a moron? Would she have let the lady take the money right out of her hand and said nothing?
I think not.
In the future, Lady Kemma, just place the tip directly into the server’s hand, that way you don’t have to worry about your coworker stealing it from you and we don’t have to hear about your paralyzing indifference.
#2 - Tips START at %15 and go up from there. I am a former server and I tip well, but I always start with %15 and, depending on the experience, go up from there.
People should really think about this. There are too many people out there that think that they are doing the server a favor by leaving them $2 on a $40 ticket. That is crap.
It STARTS at %15, people. Don’t forget that. If you’ve ever worked as a server that is going to college and trying to still help support a family, then this should be a NO BRAINER!
#3 - Mike should NOT take the ticket. I guess he could if he can live with the guilt of being a THIEF, but I say that he shouldn’t take it.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:23 pm
#1. that is absolutely appalling that the colleague took money off the tip tray! that is stealing! If she was genuinely concerned that you left too much tip, she should have handed the money back to you, not put it in her pocket, and why is it her business anyways? it’s not her money! unbelievable! servers work only for tips. I wouldn’t have scolded, I would just discreetly walk up to her immediately and say “would you mind putting that money back? I intended that for the server. If you are having financial problems and you need the money, maybe we can talk.”
Also, many people forget or don’t know how much extra work it can be to wait on a large party, and frequently that server has to forgo other tables to give the large party the attention they deserve, so an extra tip for the effort is always very very much appreciated.
#2 I think yes, there should be a minimum tip. just because the item itself is not costly, that server still took the time to take the order, bring it out, etc. $2 would be a nice minimum tip, at the very list, if you’re ordering something under $10. If you can’t afford to tip, you shouldn’t eat where someone has to wait on you. I agree with leaving at least $3 though.
#3. Stealing is stealing. who knows what kind of situation the gentleman is in. you can’t make assumptions on what someone can “afford to buy”.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
@iarenoob:
You said: “Don’t waiters and waitresses get paid too?”
As Justin said, they do, but in most places only enough to take taxes from the check. When I served, I regularly got paychecks for less than $1. See, the employers get to apply a “tip credit” to the actual minimum wage, so the Federally-mandated minimum cash wage for tipped employees is $2.13.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/state/tipped.htm
Most servers are, therefore, working entirely for tips. *You* are their employer moreso than the restaurant — that is why I get so incensed at poor service (and will tip very low amounts for substandard service), but also why I get angry when people don’t tip (or tip very poorly) for good service.
September 21st, 2007 at 12:56 pm
#1 I agree with everyone here…the colleague was wrong, wrong, wrong. However, what you say to someone in that situation has to depend on if that person is higher up than you in the company etc.
2# I don’t have a minimum that I tip. I always time at least 15%, usually 20% unless service is bad. If I go to some place really inexpensive like IHOP though I will often much more than that though because 20% seems so small on such a small bill.
3# Taking the jacket would be stealing.
On a related note, I went out for dinner with my 2 bosses and co-worker when I lived in Atlanta one time. We went to a nice Sushi restaurant and ordered a lot of food (the co-worker and I had never had sushi and our bosses were showing us the ropes). We also had a fair amount of Saki. We were having a very good time and laughing a lot at our uneducated reaction to sushi. Anyway, this was 15 years ago or so and our bill came to $138. I remember the number because I was pretty broke at the time and it seemed like a lot of money to me. Anyway, my boss was paying for it and he was always a very generous tipper. However, the waiter refused to bring us our check (yes, actually refused) because he said we were laughing at him (we were not in any way laughing at him). It was the most bizarre situation. We had to get the manager to get our check. He lost out on a $30 tip that night - probably more.
September 21st, 2007 at 1:00 pm
To all the folks responding to #1 who say variations on “well, it was wrong, but if that person is your boss or something the politics mean you shouldn’t say anything.”
I have a question for you: why would you let “office politics” have *any* bearing on what you feel is ethical or no? It doesn’t matter if the person is the damned President, if he or she does something unethical, you *call them on it*.
The worst they can do is fire you, and if you’d get fired over taking an ethical stand than WHY on EARTH would you want to continue working there in the first place?
That kind of ethical wishy-washy-ness just makes me ill.
September 21st, 2007 at 1:04 pm
#1 - I probably would have just sat their in shock and not responded in any way except to look for the waitress to slip her the extra money in person.
Then later I would have been angry at myself for have let my coworker just take the money and I would have fantasized that I should have said, “Excuse me. Did I just watch you put MY money in YOUR pocket?”
Upon further reflection, I would have realized that having done that in front of 29 other people she lost much more than either I or the waitress lost, even without my having said a thing.
In large groups, I often put in only enough money for a 15% tip and then if I want to tip more, I slide an extra $1 or $2 on the table just before I go. I’m so tired of someone covering the bill with a credit card and leaving too small of a tip and not wondering (or even noticing) that their part of the total comes out so tiny.
#2. No minimum for good service. Wait staff just expect 15%+, and if they are good, they will move up to a place with more expensive offerings. That said, if I am ordering less than average, as I often do, I do try to tip more like the average customer would. If I just get one glass of tap water at a bar, I leave $1 tip. At restaurants, I leave at least $1.50, even if I just got a cup of soup and a water.
#3. I agree with Matt that you never know the whole story for someone else. (You barely know the whole story for yourself!) That guy should call his friend ASAP, apologize profusely, explain what happened, assure him that the rings weren’t stolen, help him brainstorm his options, and then apologize again.
One thing I like about my culture is that we (try to) realize that people who aren’t one of our own are still people and are just as important. Actually, we’re not that good at it, but at least it’s a value we have.
September 21st, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Can’t believe the incredible nerve of the
woman in the first situation…..I would
have confronted the person immediately and told her to put the money back. If she refused I would seek out the waitress, and
give her the additional tip money.
No I don’t think there’s a minimum tip
required but, that said I always leave
a decent tip. It’s interesting that in
both of these scenarios one person is
deciding a tip is too large, the other
is deciding it’s too small….each of
these people is taking it upon themselves
to judge the particular situation and
act according to what “they” think is
right without considering their actions
whatsoever or the feelings of anyone else.
No I would not steal a jacket. Also what is
my best man doing on a bus anyway? Wouldn’t he be receiving the rings when he arrived
at his destination? In any case, stealing
is stealing.
September 21st, 2007 at 2:02 pm
#1. I find it a bit hard to believe. Are we sure she wasn’t just getting cash back from her own tip? For example, she wanted to leave a $3 tip so she left a $5 dollar bill and picked up $2.
Maybe I’m giving the human race too much credit, but would someone really decide that a tip is too much, therefore the money belongs to them?
September 21st, 2007 at 2:22 pm
#1 - I think it is O.K. for the colleague to take the money. She must really be tight for cash, otherwise she wouldn’t make such a bold move.
#2 - I never leave a tip less than $2, even if i am just getting a piece of pie and coffee.
#3 - I agree with taking the ticket. If people weren’t so stingy, someone would have loaned him the money. Unless s/he was black and/or dirty looking. Really sad, but true.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:10 pm
#1. That’s theft. And weird. And gauche.
#2. I leave 15%, unless the service is below par or above par. Then I adjust the tip. Servers here make $8 an hour plus tips. Most of the people I know who have worked as servers averaged $15-$30 an hour in casual restaurants, after tips. And we have national medical coverage. But I would probably tip differently in the US.
#3. I wouldn’t take the ticket. However, I would look at leaving something as security to get someone to cover my ticket.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:17 pm
1. I would not do business with this lady again. To me, integrity, honesty, and trust are an absolute must. I’d also ask for the money she stole to be returned.
2. I agree that a percentage is fine, no matter what the price. The whole point of having a percentage is so it will scale in proportion with the amount you are buying. I wonder, for those who believe in minimums, is there also a maximum? Also, as Brett McKay said, an exception for times when you get a lot of service for a small price is appropriate.
3. This is another integrity issue. There’s really no gray area. Taking the man’s ticket would be stealing, and that is wrong. It doesn’t matter what your special situation is. Now, whether or not you would do it anyway is another question. Getting to a wedding would not justify sacrificing my integrity.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:24 pm
1. That crone who had nerve to put her hands on money *I’VE* given to someone else is the worst kind of person. Confrontation or NO, we would’ve had some words about that.
2. There’s no minimum for me. I generally over-tip, esp. if the person is on point with their service, but if you suck, I am so not scared to leave a penny, just to make sure you’re aware that, no, I didn’t forget, you were JUST that bad. It’s only happened a few times in about..eh, 5 or 6 years, but I don’t feel bad. The way I see it, if you know your livelihood is highly dependent on the kindness of strangers, you should be on your A-game at all times. Don’t like it? Find a place to work where your salary is set in stone. I make allowances for mistakes, but there’s a difference between having a rough night and just being a shitty server in general.
3. I’m not a moralist by any stretch, but I wouldn’t take the ticket. Mainly because it usually doesn’t occur to me, and although I’m not very morally conservative, I do try to abide by the golden rule, which we’re all aware of. I would want someone to give me back my jacket and ticket, so I would do the same. It’s funny b/c the reason that Hypothetical You is in this situation is because of someone else’s dishonesty; how does piling dishonesty on top of dishonesty make the situation livable?
Having said all that, I wouldn’t fault Hypothetical You for taking the ticket, because the situation is pretty dire (recently married, here). And to the person that would excuse the loaf of bread for a starving man, but not this: Stealing is stealing is stealing. It doesn’t matter why you’re doing it, if it’s just wrong. I, personally, believe in a spectrum of sin (Sin A is not as bad as Sin B), but it’s all still carried in the same basket.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:25 pm
#1 I totally agree with everyone else, and even if the person had been my superior I would have said something. At the least I would have picked up the tip and taken it personally to the waitress and added the money back.
#2. 15% is 15%. I hate the fact that we have to feel guilty about a waiter/waitress getting poor wages. The whole tipping system sucks and is unfair. But I refuse to fork over 30-40% tips when I just get a cup of coffee. I also think the tipping thing is getting out of hand — Starbucks, fast food, hot dog stands, you name it and they have a tip jar.
#3. The man’s situation was unfortunate, but I would have explained it to the bus driver, not begged money from passengers. A quick phone call to the groom and reassurance to the driver that someone on the other end of the trip would pay would normally be enough, I think. Taking someone else’s ticket — NOT okay. Who knows why that person is taking the bus and what they would have to give up? The last moments with a dying parent? A date with their future spouse? Taking the ticket is being extremely selfish — saying, “My problems are greater than everyone else’s here.” And that is something you can never know.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:30 pm
1) I would have let her know I saw what happened but would not have made a scene.
2) I always tip extra when I have my toddler as he makes extra work.
3) I wonder if the relative place of marriage in different societies might explain some of the differences of thinking here. In my home country a wedding is considered a very big deal and something that will only happen once. In fact divorce has only been legal for 10 years. I am shocked at how easily Americans get married. I would take the ticket and try my best to make reparation.
September 21st, 2007 at 4:00 pm
1) That is outright theft in my opinion. She is stealing and I would definitely tell her that and insist that she give my money back.
2) I usually leave 15% but if my meal was inexpensive and the service was good I would leave a little more. I have put a little extra in as a tip when eating with a large group on one bill. You have to be careful here because there always seems to be at least on person who will want to cheap out and take the extra money out.
3) NO! It is definitely wrong to take the ticket in this situation. The only way I would do it is if someone’s life depended on it and then I would find a way to pay the man later.
September 21st, 2007 at 4:53 pm
This is a very engaging post. Our responses:
1. Lady Kemma: We would have stopped our colleague from stealing the tip even if it created a scene. The waitress deserved it and it is our responsibility to see that she gets what she deserves. In addition, we are also encouraging someone to get into the habit of stealing tips and get away with it. That is a crime!
2. Usually we leave a 15% tip. But when the total purchase is less than $10 often our minimum tip varies from $2 to $3.
3. Now a days people have cell phones. If our ticket is gone we can definitely call our friends for help. We hope that our cell phones are not stored in our wallets:). In our case we would have not taken the ticket and in fact would have tried to return the jacket to its owner. Also, cops can help in this type of situations.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Lynda,
Thank you thank you thank you!
As a former server, I cannot tell you how many times people have left HUGE messes with no extra tip to make up for the extra work. Literally, I’ve had to spend 20-30 minutes cleaning up a booth just to make it fit for the next guests.
Granted, I have also waited on people who had kids that were polite, neat and just an absolute joy to serve.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:01 pm
As a parent, I always get down on the floor and pick up anything my kid dropped. I wipe up messes and will even ask for a wet cloth, if necessary. I don’t think there’s any tip that makes up for the work of cleaning up after a messy toddler.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Oh no, I don’t mean we leave a mess but when the little guy is with us we always seem to need extra napkins, high chairs and stuff.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:50 pm
#1 What the hell? Stealing from a coworker or a waitress, either way, that needs to be brought up to a superior. That just isn’t right.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Taking money off of the tip tray is like taking money from the collection plate at church. That’s just wrong. I don’t have to ponder that one.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:39 pm
A tip is a way to show gratitude for good service. It is crap saying you have to give 15% or 18%. I usually leave 10% for okay service, 15 for exceptional service and none for lousy service. I have recently stopped eating out altogether because I want to save money. And those tip jars everywhere? Give me a break.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
[...] Rich Slowly presents some questions on money and ethics. (I couldn’t believe that someone would pocket tip money that someone else at their [...]
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:48 am
#1 - If the colleague were that spineless to reprimand me in public, and then steal, I’d return the favor by yelling, “What the hell are you doing? That’s my money!” And I’d report the truth to her superior. If the lady had anything to do with finances in a company, I’d like to see her out of a job, pronto!
#2 - I think it depends on your income - say in a college student example. I think if I’m broke and can afford only 50-85 cents tip for 4.50 meal, then that’s what I can afford!
#3 - If I were this guy, I’d get hitch hiking really fast!
Or perhaps call the cops in the town his friend is staying at, and ask them to contact his friend and Western Union some money to the bus station (or phone order a ticket)! End of problem!
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:54 am
#3’s time crunch may not be helpful to Mike to get a bus ticket within the allotted time. So a bunch of cash to rent a car would do equal wonders.
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:28 am
Lots of fascinating questions and answers here - good stuff!
1) I would have said something like, “Oh dear, Sally, that was my check tray - yours is over there if you want to get some change back.” This gives her the benefit of the doubt but lets her know you saw her too. But you can be sure I’d be very careful in my future dealings with her knowing that she’s both unethical and so class-conscious that she thinks the server did not *deserve* more money for working hard.
2) I don’t think there is a minimum amount required. I tip 15-20% usually. I don’t usually tip at places where I place the order at the counter and have to clean up after myself.
3) I would not take the ticket. Not to sound corny, but I would probably say a prayer and trust God to work it out. From the other side of the question, I know if I were in the bus station and someone were cadging for “bus fare”, I’d be suspicious - this is a common scam these days. But if I had the means, I’d probably try to help - after all, we’d be riding the same bus so I’d have time to get information from the guy so I could get paid back.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:53 am
@Jon: Whether you agree or not, 15% is the normal basepoint for OK service nowadays. Anything else is just a cheap tipper.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:56 am
1) That situation seems so bizarre that I think there must be more to it. My guess is that the colleague just reclaimed her own tip, e.g. she put in $2 then saw that everyone else had put in $50 between them, so she said “Oh well, that’s a huge tip and you don’t need my contribution after all.” I’d say it’s morally ok to do that, although it’s a bit awkward in practice because other people don’t know whether you’re taking back a bigger share.
2) The tipping culture is a bit different in the UK. If I’m eating at a restaurant, I normally aim for 10%, but I tend to round up or down depending on what coins I have. E.g. a couple of days ago my meal cost £4.30, and I paid with a £5.00 note, so I dropped a 50p coin from my change into the tip jar.
3) Out of interest, do you know roughly how much that bus ticket would cost? I wouldn’t take the ticket; I’d feel bad about letting my friends down, but they could still have the wedding without me.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 am
I cannot bring myself to tip under 20%, it makes me feel like I’m personally insulting someone who works in an unforgiving industry.
It’s perhaps this flood of guilt that makes me find tipping systems thoroughly disgusting. Some argue that the tipping incentive leads to better service, but accounts from those I know in the food service industry confess it actually leads to triage.
On a busy evening, a server necessarily prioritizes their attention. There’s a customer eating alone in a shabby coat, and there’s a group of couples wearing expensive looking clothes. The guy in the shabby coat gets poor service, regardless of how well he actually tips.
Now imagine it’s not a shabby coat, but a black party and a white party. The server has often heard, “whites tip more than blacks,” whether or not it’s actually true. What happens then?
Perhaps this is a subtle effort by restauranteers to tell poor folks and minorities not to bother eating out.
Concerns about prejudice aside, it’s a sleazy way for restaurant owners to hide prices from customers and wages from employees, reminiscent of the most despicable corners of capitalism: used car sales, intro-rate credit cards, bribery of officials, ….
Is there any other field where the manager of the business tells you after you buy the product that you might want to kick in something for his underpaid workforce as well? And if you don’t, you’ll look like a bastard, while the manager doesn’t?
The result of this overworked bile combined with my sympathy for those working in the service industry: I tend to eat out less.
The moral of this story is that taking absurd amounts of umbrage at common practices is sometimes good for both your health and your wallet.
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:26 am
If I make a contractual obligation to make $500K, do I then have the right in some cultures to keep my promise to myself to steal money from a bank?
Exactly what culture says stealing in #3 is acceptable?
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:41 am
In the first example the colleague is basically stealing. If I was holding out a five dollar bill and a few one dollar bills to a friend of mine, and when my friend reaches out to take it someone snatches it from my hand…that’s stealing.
So why is it any different if you’re giving money to a waitress and someone else decides to pocket some of that money before the waitress is able to take it?
I’d be very wary of that person in general. Stealing is stealing, and someone who is willing to steal from a nameless waitress is just as likely to steal from someone they know. (Watch your pocketbook!)
September 22nd, 2007 at 11:10 am
[...] wrote about two tip related scenarios and one about “stealing”. First, I was absolutely stunned that someone would take someone else’s tip off the table. I [...]
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:32 pm
#3 — Not making it to the wedding is a serious affront to the friend and to both families involved, and would be a betrayal of the friendship and your special role in it. I’m surprised that most of the commenters above feel that personal property is utterly sacrosanct, trumping all other values, including friendship. To me, fulfilling your obligation to your friend and both families, and not ruining their special day, is more important than a bus ticket.
Obviously it’s not a great situation, and no one would be happy about it, least of all the poor guy who would come back to his jacket only to find his ticket gone.
When my purse was stolen in China, I hoped that someone who really needed the money had taken it. Stuff is just stuff; it’s best not to get too attached to the difference between what is “mine” and what is not. In the end, we don’t really own anything ourselves; we’re just being loaned it for the short term.
I’m not advocating wanton stealing. I’m just surprised that even when the thought experiment has been set up to give as much weight to the “taking the ticket would be OK” side of the equation, most commenters above still privilege property ownership over all other values.
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Ladykemma here.
I chose not to confront the lady because she is a superior to me at work, so wouldn’t have been politically smart. The harm to me would have been greater than the reward of the reprimand. I also was so shocked that it took a few minutes to sink in what actually happened. we were in a hurry to leave as well.
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:11 pm
1. I would have been pretty pissed and asked her to explain why she deserved the money more than the waitress, then told her to put the money back, the add a buck or 2 more to spite her. hehe
2. I will leave a minimum of $2 for being served at a table, even if its just a $1 cup of coffee. Ive tipped over 100% before if I got good service and had the cash to spare. Ive worked for tips before and know a good tip can make a waitresses/waiters night. I also know my friends and I can be a handful, especially when we walk into a diner at 4am after being out all night. We tend to go to the same places though so we know the wait staff by first name a lot of the time and get good service because they know we are friendly (and loud and annoying at times) and leave a good tip (usually around20 percent + 2 or 3 bucks per person)
3. I would have flagged the guy down because he forgot his coat. I would have then explained my situation and asked if he could loan me the money. If he was well off he might do it. Id be sure to get his contact info so I could pay him back and id offer interest on the loan.
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Leukothea (84), Mike has an obligation to the bride and groom and he definitely shanked it by being a LONG bus ride away at a critical point in matters, but the guy who absent-mindedly stepped away from his jacket is -not- part of that obligation.
Mike would be ‘correcting’ one wrong by adding another to it.
Since when does attending a wedding justify harming another human being by stealing -his- means of transportation? We do not have enough information to establish the importance of the other mans’ journey, so we can not say that attending a wedding has a higher social-good value. For my money, if you aren’t the bride, the groom or the caterer, a wedding is nothing more than a social function. For them, it’s serious business.
For all you and I know, the distracted man with the jacket is traveling for the funeral of a dearly beloved family member and has wandered off to weep in private. Would you take the ticket of a man on his way to bid farewell to his Mom? He’d have flown, but he spent much of his earnings the past few years paying for nursing care for her.
Maudlin? Yes. But there is no morally defensible way for Mike to relieve him of that ticket except the direct course of asking him face to face.
If Mike can cadge a phone call, likely the groom (or someone close to him) could put a ticket on a credit card ASAP and get Mike (& the rings) home on time.
September 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 pm
“Ladykemma here.
I chose not to confront the lady because she is a superior to me at work, so wouldn’t have been politically smart. The harm to me would have been greater than the reward of the reprimand. I also was so shocked that it took a few minutes to sink in what actually happened. we were in a hurry to leave as well.”
Sorry, Lady Kemma, sounds like a cop out to me.
Like I said, next time, place the tip directly into the server’s hand.
September 23rd, 2007 at 12:08 am
I would take the ticket. Something bad will happen no matter what (ruined wedding or theft), but a wedding is a once-in-a-lifetime event, while the well-off man *probably* won’t have a once-in-a-lifetime event ruined. Ideally I would somehow repay him later, but whether that was possible or not wouldn’t affect my decision.
This reminds me of the trolley problem, where people have a problem doing one bad thing to prevent a worse thing from happening. http://crookedtimber.org/2003/08/30/trolley-problems
Actually, this also reminds me of the whole “is it okay to steal for your starving family?” question. In my opinion it is (as a last resort), because while you are screwing over the baker, you’re still doing the lesser of two evils (the other evil being letting dependents die).
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:32 am
chris hunter - you weren’t there…
why am i being attacked?
September 23rd, 2007 at 6:52 am
1. I would have been as stunned as ladykemma. Whether or not I said anything would have depended on the political situation at work. At any rate, it is probably a small price to pay for knowing what a snake she is dealing with.
2. I think of tips as table rent. If I only order dessert and coffee, I tip the same as I would on a meal, because normally, the table would have been occupied by someone who would have had a higher bill to tip on. I don’t want the server to lose out because I shared a meal, didn’t order much, etc.
3. Many people have mentioned that it would be wrong to take the ticket because perhaps the rich guy is going to spend time with a dying family member, etc. This is a possibility. However, the reason why I would not take the ticket is because no one, rich or poor, should have to have their faith in humanity hammered away at by acts such as this. If he can’t get to the wedding, oh well. Stuff happens. Maybe the bus was going to crash anyway and it’s divine intervention.
Great post!
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:48 am
The “art” of tipping is confusing to many people. In Ireland, waiters must be paid “Minimum Wage” (which is in excess of US$10 per hour, btw) - however, this means that it is really rare for people to tip …
It does mean that it is confusing for Irish people to calculate tips … we assume that the waiters are earning a living wage, and should only get a tip if they go beyond what would normally be expected!
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:40 am
This comment thread has been fascinating. The theme that sticks out to me is people’s need to receive recognition for “good behavior”. This seems to be coming up in two ways:
1) Everyone wants to explain how, given the shocking situation Lady Kemma found herself in, THEY would have totally been, like, such a hero. They would have stood up to The Man! They would acted strongly, boldly, to make things right! They would have risked their jobs, their livelihood, their family’s security, their children’s food and education, over $2 of this woman’s tip!
It seems like two things are important to keep in mind here: first, that how, upon a bit of reflection and from the safety of your living room you would like to imagine you would act isn’t necessarily what you would really have done if taken by surprise in a professional situation. Second, it’s really not always worth risking your job to defend every last principle of ethics you can think of. Even if altruism were to be your overwhelming above-all goal, it’s hard to believe that you wouldn’t at least consider the idea that you keeping your job and giving 50% of your salary to buy vaccines and mosquito nets for children in the recent war zone of Uganda might not possibly be a better total outcome.
2) This relates to the second way I see the need for recognition being a theme: there are so many posts here where the main point seems to be “I’m a good tipper! I’m so totally generous! I know the value of hard work, so I give give give!”
I find this a little bit surprising, not the least because for a couple of years now I’ve been somewhat surprised at how little attention is paid in the personal finance community to the importance of charitable giving. Not that it never comes up, but most proposed budgets listed on these blogs skip the category entirely, and most discussions of the issue that do arise include quite a few people mentioning that it’s something they plan to do in the future, because they just don’t have the resources right now.
Now, don’t mistake what I’m saying: I am *not* trying to equate tipping with charity. But, to the extent that 75% of people feel the need to be in the top 25th percentile of tippers, while all the while being less interested in any other form of giving their money to worthwhile causes… I have to admit it feels a lot like a situation where people’s main goal is recognition (tipping is public, and boasting about how much you tip on a comment board even more so) rather than any direct consequence for others.
Thoughts?
September 23rd, 2007 at 5:21 pm
When I read the orignal article I realised that the same scenario was put to people in Mysore, India and a Maisin village in Papua New Guinea. If you take away the options that you can call a friend on your cell phone, someone can put the ticket on their credit card or wire you money would you change your mind.
What would it take to make you take the ticket? Would you take it to get to your own wedding?
September 24th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Tipping less than 10% means your waiter is actually paying to serve you because the IRS assumes you’re leaving at least 10% and taxes them accordingly. People who jip their waiters are mean. Being young enough that most of my friends are either in the service industry or recently left it I try and leave $1.00/person minimu, no matter the size of the order, even if its just soda and an appetizer. It’s the price I pay for not having to serve myself.
September 24th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
@L.J.T:
You said: “Tipping less than 10% means your waiter is actually paying to serve you because the IRS assumes you’re leaving at least 10% and taxes them accordingly.”
That’s factually incorrect; I can tell you this as a server — you have to claim your tips, and the IRS witholds from your paycheck based on the amount you claim. If a server routinely claims less than about 10%, however, the IRS will suspect that they are lying (since most servers make more than this), and there’s a good chance they will get audited.
You said: “People who jip their waiters are mean.”
I agree that people who refuse to tip for good service in places where it is customary are both cheap and mean. However, using a racial epithet to express your opinion isn’t exactly nice either. (Hint: the word is spelled “gyp” and refers to the belief that the gypsies [who are, in fact, a race] were all liars and cheats).
You said: “I try and leave $1.00/person minimu[m], no matter the size of the order, even if its just soda and an appetizer.”
It’s good that you are generous, but speaking as someone who spent quite a bit of time as a server, I’d not insist that anyone have a minimum tip policy — unless there is a wait in the lobby, I’d rather have you there and tipping me $0.50 than not there and get sent home early.
If the restaurant is busy, though, and you are buying significantly less than is customary (say, having dessert and coffee at a dinner establishment), I always did appreciate a little extra consideration for “taking a table” away — and I always increase my tip accordingly when I do the same.
September 24th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Question:
If you call and order a $12 pizza for delivery, do you tip the driver? If yes, how much?
September 24th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Delivered Pizza, yes you tip the driver. At least 15%. If the weather is horrendous, at least 20%.
http://tipthepizzaguy.com/
September 25th, 2007 at 4:41 am
Tipping is a cultural thing, not a sacred thing. IMHO, it doesn’t make any sense. It is paying alms, and this is humiliating to the receiver. In fact, employers use tipping as an excuse to pay less. You are not really supporting the employer but the business. If people didn’t tip, employers would have to pay more or else no one would take the job.
Who decides what kind of service deserves a tip? You tip the pizza delivery guy, but not the postman. Why? You see? It doesn’t make any sense. Do you get paid twice for doing the same job? I don’t. So I don’t tip anyone.
September 25th, 2007 at 6:53 am
@Zeca: Sounds like you are rationalising being a cheapskate. I hope you don’t eat out, order pizza, get your hair cut, or anything else that tipping is the main source of income for.