Ask the Readers: Buy a Home, or Max Out Retirement Savings? Print
Friday, 26th October 2007 (by J.D.)This article is about Ask the Readers, Choices, House and Home, Retirement
The toughest personal finance choices are those where your heart wrestles with your mind. Justin wrote because he’s found a great place to live, but it’s just on the edge of what he can afford. He wants help deciding what to do:
I’ve been renting for the past two years (and several years before that in college). My roommate recently bought a place, and that’s thrown me into the hunt for new housing. Either I buy a place, or find a place to rent alone. After an extremely bad experience, I refuse to room with a stranger.
I’ve found a condo with an awesome location and a near-perfect floor plan for my tastes. The place is being short-sold (sold for less than the current mortgage amount). I can probably fetch it for $195,000, though the decision is in the bank’s hands about what to accept. They are already sitting on an offer of $190,000, so there is a lot of time-pressure here. Other condos in the same building even are going for $240,000+. I know that intrinsically this is a great deal, and that I won’t find better in this price range.
Here’s the question: When I work out a monthly budget, including every cost I can think of, the final numbers are really tight. I worked out the budget with the assumption that I keep my current 401k contribution rate of 20%. I know I can’t keep up that rate forever, but at what point do I lower it? Is something like this worth lowering the contribution rate by 5% to give some wiggle room? Or is this simply a sign that I’m outside my price range?
A few things to consider: I have no debt. I have an emergency fund of $6000 established. Beyond that, I have about $6500 between savings and bonds to play with. The plan is for most of that to go to deduction points on the mortgage to get a nice rate. I do have other possibilities at a lower price range, but they aren’t as nice in location nor floor plan.
What’s the best course of action here?
Buying a home can be scary. It’s a huge commitment in time and cash. And as many people have learned over the past few years, what seems affordable on paper can be unworkable in the real world.
Still, it sounds as if Justin has a good handle on his finances. He’s been saving at a phenomenal rate. If I were in his situation, I’d probably be willing to accept the 5% reduction in 401k contributions in order to pick up a great deal on a home. There are two things for Justin to consider:
- If he does purchase the condo and lower his 401k contributions, he should consider bumping these back to 20% the next time he receives a salary increase.
- If his situation is appropriate, he might also find it profitable to ask for a raise now. If this ploy is successful, he might not have to lower his 401k contributions at all.
This isn’t a decision to be made lightly. A high housing payment can really put the squeeze on your monthly cash-flow, making life miserable. When Kris and I bought our current house, things were tight for a year or so. Now that I’ve reduced me debt, my cash-flow has improved. The housing payment is no longer oppressive, which means I’m less tense about my financial situation.

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October 26th, 2007 at 5:19 am
Go for the condo if you are 90%+ sure that you will live in it for at least 5 years. Otherwise, the closing costs, etc. is not worth ti.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:20 am
JD, I agree that Justin sounds like he has a great handle on his finances and the suggestions you’ve made are good ones. One thing I’d like to add that I think is important not to overlook is how long he thinks he’ll be in the condo for.
The condo has a “near-perfect floor plan” for his taste but for how long? I’m guessing Justin is rather young (two years out of college?) so it’s probably safe to say that his lifestyle will likely change within the next 5-10 years or so.
If Justin decides to get married and perhaps even start a family in the next 5 years, will the floor plan still be perfect? Gone are the days when you could buy real estate for short term gains. I’m a strong believer that, if you can’t be nearly certain that you’ll stay in your house / condo for at least 5 years, you’re better off to rent. Consider realtor fees, closing costs, moving costs, etc. and consider that, if this turns out to be a short-term purchase and the condo doesn’t increase in value, you too could be short selling, just the guy / gal that lived there previously.
Don’t get caught up into thinking that renting is for suckers. It isn’t. I would suggest Justin make a list of reasons as to why he wants to become a home owner. He may just find that none of them are all that great.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:31 am
The younger you are when you make your retirement contributions, the more they’ll grow by the time you retire. Dramatically.
Also, I think any budget should have some breathing room, if possible. If you buy the condo and then lose your job or you just want to have more spending money, you won’t be able to free up that money very easily.
Rent.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:32 am
Wow, I wish I’d been this financially savvy when I was just a few years out of college!
I personally would cut back on my 401(k) contributions and buy the condo with the idea of eventually turning it into a rental property. A few things Justin doesn’t mention are how much of a down payment he’ll be able to make, how long it will take him to replenish his savings, and what the housing market is like where he lives (though it sounds like it’s extremely unlikely the value of the condo would decrease in the next few years).
Unlike Brandon, I think a two-year minimum stay in the condo would be sufficient, just thinking of tax purposes (hence the importance of market conditions). However, because he’s so young, I think it’s a great idea to buy what he can afford now, stay there for a while (say, until he is ready to start a family) and direct all income increases into savings.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:45 am
If your mind is set on buying, rather than finding a one-person rental, then you need to minimize closing costs as much as possible. It sounds like you’re not working with a realtor, that’ll save a chunk. Forget about paying points at the closing. The break-even point ~8 years in the future, and the odds heavily favor you moving before that time.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:49 am
Seriously, go for the condo. Even if the 401(k) drops back to 15%, that’s still a decently-sized contribution, and even with closing costs the condo is still very cheap. Normally I would agree that it’s a bad idea to buy if you intend to move within 5 years, but $190K for a $240K property is a huge bargain, and it means that a profit can still be made in the event of a change in circumstance. Go for it!
October 26th, 2007 at 5:51 am
Mathematically renters always come out ahead. There are intrinsic values to owning your own home but renting is the purely mathematical choice. With no children or spouse I would say continue to rent and keep building your retirement. If you really want to purchase a hone, and the market the way it is, you could buy a foreclosure for much less than a traditional sale.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:58 am
One should also consider the property value since the property is being sold at a discount, which will equate to immediate equity. Maybe you cannot realize that gain today but it is still a discount you need to keep in mind.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:59 am
I think it’s also very important to consider job security/flexibility.
After I finished school, I accepted a high paying position in a large firm and, after a few years, purchased a house. Some time later, after realizing there was no “light at the end of the tunnel” in my then current job, I started casually looking for other employment. A few months later, somewhat fortuitously, a really great position opened up. But, this public sector job required me to take a VERY BIG hit to my salary. I almost turned this opportunity down because of my commitment to my house/mortgage. (Given the market where I live, selling the house was not a great option — unless I wanted to take another big hit.)
Justin seems to be in better shape (and a better market) than I was in. But, I agree with J.D.: buying a house is not to be taken lightly; it is a serious commitment, and all possibilities should be considered.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:00 am
We’re at the end of an unprecedented run up in housing costs, and I can’t recommend that anyone spend any money in real estate right now, regardless of “how cheap it is”.
When I am faced with a decision in life, I always ask myself, “If I choose to do this, will it leave me with more options or less later.” As a general rule, I try to make decisions that always leave me more options. For this young man to choose to spend his money in real estate would leave him less options. He would be saddled with the mortgage, and quite probably would be unable to sell in any reasonable length of time if he needed to get out before the magical five year window was up.
Being financially responsible in your mid-twenties is wonderful, and I applaud this young man. But, he should allow himself the freedom his age affords. As a renting twenty, he could take new jobs in different cities if he saw fit. He could build a small nest egg and take six months off to sail the Mediterranean. He could spend a couple of years in the peace corps. He can live the freedom his age provides. He should not be making a RUSHED decision that could effect 30 years worth of decision making. There will be another condo. There will be time later. (Justin: You are making sound financial decisions, and in this market there is no clear difference between renting and owning. To quote an adage: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.)
Editorial note:
People seem to forget the whole way price is determined in real-estate — COMPS. Since this condo is going on the market for 190k, that means the condo, and all like it, are worth 190k. Not 200, 220, or 250 — they are all worth 190k. Do not get suckered into the fools game cheered by the realtors — most of whom would fail a micro-economics course. (I choose micro-economics as “all real-estate is local”.)
October 26th, 2007 at 6:00 am
Think really hard about this- I bought a condo a few years back (second home) because I got a great deal. I later realized I couldn’t really afford it and sold it. It was $178,000. I got a low interest rate, and my actual mortgage payment was around $600/month.
BUT- add taxes on top of this and a $295/month condo fee and it ended up costing me $1100 month- nearly twice what I thought!
Also- be aware that condo fees CAN and DO go up. Find out what the condo fee is right now!
I’d think about this long and hard…
October 26th, 2007 at 6:02 am
Justin is the buyer. A Realtor shouldn’t cost him a dime.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:09 am
I don’t get it…how do we know $190k is a steal? Three years from now if Justin is selling, isn’t it entirely possible that $190k could be overpriced?
I’m curious to know what a condo in this building would rent for. I think that would help us better understand this property’s value.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:10 am
Go for the condo. Your home is the single most important material thing affecting the quality of your life, and you can’t afford to regret not getting something you were 100% happy with. I once bought and lived in a place for investment purposes, and they were the most miserable years of my life (ie, it impacted on everything from social life, work, physical health and even mental wellbeing). I’d say this even if Justin wasn’t just choosing between property or pension- it’s worth cutting back even on staples to be happily homed.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:11 am
The post is a little light on facts . . . does he have 20% to put down, what about closing costs and prepayments for insurance and real estate taxes, etc. Sounds like he’s going to clean out his savings to get a lower rate and then he’ll have no cushion when the first house repair pops up (with Murphy’s law that will happen the first week). What about costs for moving, new furniture, etc. for the new place? What % of his income is going to go towards housing expenses?
Putting aside the retirement contribution issue, from the facts put forth in the post I’d be concerned whether he has enough money in general to afford this condo. While the condo does sound like a great deal, you don’t want to be house poor with no savings account.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:14 am
What I wondered, in reading this, is what the effect of that reduction in pre-tax withholding will be on Justin’s take-home pay. Simply the fact that he’ll be getting 65 cents on the dollar for that “extra” 5% of pay may mean it’s not as much breathing room as he’d hoped.
In fact, I think I recently saw an online calculator that would tell you what the effect would be on your take-home pay if you changed your 401k contributions to x amount, but I can’t recall where it was. Helpful, I know!
October 26th, 2007 at 6:32 am
First of all, I take issue with the statement “Mathematically renters always come out ahead”. You, sir, are no mathematician if you believe that. Please reference http://tinyurl.com/2u8ars
Justin indeed has much going for him, but I’m not sure it’s enough to warrant jumping into a mortgage. First of all, he needs to look at what percentage of his his monthly income his mortgage payment will consume. This needs to be the whole payment, too — the PMI, Taxes, etc. Many mortgage payment calculators (the ones owned by the banks) don’t include this info in the calculations and your payment ends up being a fair amount higher than the calculators told you it would be. Anyway, most analysts say that a good range for a mortgage payment is 25-35% of your income. If you get much above that, then you don’t leave much room for other financial goals.
As to the emergency fund, $6000 is a good start, but I would recommend working towards $10K-15K, especially if you plan to buy a place. Replacing a furnace or fixing some other huge problem could eat up that $6K in one fell swoop.
Lastly, don’t let the time element pressure you into making a decision. That’s one of the big tricks of the real estate industry. Honestly, if you miss this “deal”, another one will come along if you’re patient. The fact that you called the floor plan nearly ideal makes me think you’re trying to convince yourself to make this deal quickly. The worst thing you can do is be pressured into making a decision you later regret.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:34 am
If you’re budget is that tight I would have concern. You really don’t have that much money saved. Finally it sounds like you’re rushing into this. I would just wait. There’s plenty of condos for sale and just because this is a short sale doesn’t mean you’re getting a deal.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Curious as to why Justin is choosing to buy - simply because the friend did? Because that’s a really important goal for him?
The answers to those could make a huge difference in whether or not living tightly is worth it.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:05 am
This is my first time adding a comment, after lurking for a long time. However, this is a very important issue for Justin and many others.
So, here are a couple of examples from my family.
My son, who is now 37, hasn’t had to work since he was in his late 20s. Why? Because he bought his first condo at age 18. He still owns it, along with a lot of other property and other investents. He and his wife (who also doesn’t have to work) live in a large house that they built at the beach in California. They travel the world and have time to devote to charitable causes.
What he did: While in college he rented out 2 of the bedrooms, which made his monthly payment. After graduation, it became a rental. Several years later he used some of the equity to get his next property. And so on.
Another example: My husband and I married young and had 3 children. We were broke. Yet we bought a home and eventually traded up several times to a home that was eventually worth a lot. We sold it, bought smaller, and ended up with a nice home free and clear and enough money to retire comfortably.
Justin, think of the long term. Will this condo make a good rental later?
October 26th, 2007 at 7:06 am
If you really want to own a place, then go for it. There are some home ownership negatives to consider though such as maintenance. If the oven or the dishwasher breaks you can’t just call maintenance to come fix it (how I miss apartment living sometimes). Not that it’s a deal breaker, but you will find that lots of things start to pop up that drain your money more than you had expected.
If the mortgage payment is 20-25% of your net pay, I’d say you’ll be pretty comfortable with it. Any more than that and I would pass for now.
Best of luck!
October 26th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Don’t buy a home (condo, house, whatever) unless you have enough down payment that your mortgage payment is less than 25% of your TAKE HOME pay on a 15 year, FIXED rate mortgage.
Don’t buy your first home (or move up/across in house) unless you are *completely* debt free (except an existing mortgage, if moving up/across) and have 3-6 months emergency fund.
New home buyer trends are to immediately do a bunch of work, upgrades, appliance replacement, etc etc in the first three years of home ownership. If you have a big hairy payment (more than 25% take home) and other debts, those ‘new home expenses’ are going to land you in debt up to your eyeballs, and then you’ll be normal.
“Don’t be normal. Be weird.” - Dave Ramsey.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Wow, I was in nearly the exact same situation this summer. I wound up buying the $195,000 condo, and two days later someone bought an identical unit for $240,000. That was kind of neat.
A red flag to me:
Without enough money to at least put down 10%, I don’t think Justin is ready to buy yet. He shouldn’t buy until he can put down a minimum of 10%, and still have money left over to buy down points as well as some cash still in the bank to cover a few months worth of emergency expenses.
When you’re putting down less than 20% on the value of your home, you are either going to be stuck with private mortgage insurance (add $80 per month or so to your monthly costs), or you’ll wind up with an adjustable-rate mortgage that will eventually start ticking upwards.
If Justin already thinks it will be tight financially, he should also consider the other costs: the mortgage payment includes PMI, 1/12th of total property taxes, a homeowner’s association payment (could easily be over $150/month) and homeowner’s insurance.
It’s great that he’s able to put 20% into his 401k, but if he is looking to buy a home he should consider reducing that contribution to 10% or 15% until he gets more savings in the bank.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:31 am
We (my husband & I) were actually in pretty much the same situation- we’re a year & a half out of college, have a $6000 emergency fund, and are funding out 401Ks to our employers’ match (though not as aggressively as you are). We saved up a $10,000 down payment over the last year, and closed on a house this week. Admittedly, our area is very affordable, and our principal & interest payment will be less than our current rent- BUT, as other commenters have pointed out, home insurance, mortgage insurance, and taxes add up, making the monthly payment much higher than those convenient calculators might lead you to believe. Also, your $6500 will be eaten into by closing costs (unless the bank pays them for you)
If you want to buy a house, I’d suggest saving up purposely for a down payment (rather than just having money “to play with”), and, when you’ve hit your down-payment goal (whether its a percentage or an amount), then start looking for another ‘perfect’ floorplan, in a place you’ll commit to be for 6+ years. If you want to make buying a house a priority, that may mean lowering your retirement contributions. For us to get a down payment saved up, we saved aggressively. Now, our house payment (even paying 1/3 more than the minimum!) will be less than what we were saving per month + rent, and we can now save aggressively for something else- probably a car fund to replace the 15-year-old sedan we’re still driving.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:43 am
The Real Estate market in most parts of the country is starting to plummet as the credit crisis is revealed more and more. A lot of people’s ARM loans are kicking into a higher rate as the third year starts and they can’t afford the price increase so they are going into foreclosure.
Because of this, I suggest you think long and hard about if this condo is really the one you want. It’s a buyer’s market and there are many, many ways to find available housing at discount prices. Don’t rush into this one just because “you think you’ll love it”, or “it’s such a steal!”. I suggest you buy something, but something that works and doesn’t make you house poor and cause you to lower your retirement fund.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:56 am
Everything returns to moderation and knowing yourself. If you’re “chasing money” then you’ll find yourself in a perpetual “rat race” and things will always be “tight.”
With that said, remember that, as author, Mitch Anthony, says, “life is not about making money, money is about making a life.” Some of the life decisions you make have a “rate of return” that goes beyond monetary means. If your savings rate goes down by 20% but your “life enjoyment rate” goes up by 50%, the decision becomes easier…
You just need to remember the all-important moderation and knowing yourself…
October 26th, 2007 at 8:00 am
If the house is currently priced @ under market value, I think that Justin should jump on the deal.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:22 am
I would be very cautious. Justin has to make a change, but now is a poor time with housing prices freefalling. Finding a cheap one place rental and waiting out the downturn in prices is a much better choice. That also gives him a chance to accumulate more cash for a downpayment.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:22 am
I would say it depends on what he has for a down payment. If Justin only has a total of $12,500 available for a downpayment and he can only just afford it at a 30 year mortgage, then I would suggest skipping the deal and saving for another year or two. You might end up with a better deal if the housing market keeps dropping and it likely will for the next two years or so as more mortgages come off their discount rates.
Yet if Justin has 10% or more as a down payment and he can afford a 25 year mortgage, I would say go for it.
I know the feeling of really wanting a house, but you must NEVER fall in love with a house. There will always be other deals in the future.
Tim
October 26th, 2007 at 8:31 am
One of the ways we determine the line between affordable and unaffordable is whether we can still max out our retirement accounts (401(k)s, IRAs) with the new expenses. So, I’d take the issue of reducing retirement funds as a red flag.
I am also following the comments about purchasing issues with interest. We’re in the midst of buying another property that we plan to use both as an income property and a place we’ll live for a period of time, and we are struggling with similar issues of determining the price we want to pay, and whether to wait to see where the market goes. It’s nice to be in a buyers’ market for a change and not have to rush everything, but it’s still hard to be patient.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:38 am
I say if you have a fixed mortgage and it’s about 25% of your monthy incom and you have no other debt. You won the game. There is nothing you cannot afford at this point
October 26th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Justin, no one but you can make this decision. But I would recommend IGNORING any advice based on how financially beneficial home ownership has historically been. There aren’t any guarantees. I wouldn’t buy this house because of any real-estate investment notions. Buy a house because you want to be a home-owner and you’re ready to stay put for awhile. I’d also buy less house than you can afford. Even for the finally-savvy among us, there can be some unanticipated costs. My taxes went up quite drastically right after I purchase my home. Your condos fees may also rise, along with insurance, utilities and home-improvement repairs.
I’m in my 20s, a saver and I bought a house two years ago. I paid less than what I wanted to spend. I don’t know that I would make the same decision today I’m a worrier and it can be stressful and a lot of work. Home-ownership CAN limit your options. Don’t rush your decision either. There will always be another deal.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:41 am
I am not sure what the appeal of a condo. is, but I would prefer to buy a small single, family home over a condo because there are strange fees associated with condo. life, and it’s basically an apartment. That being said, I bought a house 6 years ago, and I haven’t had any problems with it. Yes, it’s good to have some money saved for emergencies, but try to find something that is in good condition to begin with so you can focus on saving money instead of buying and fixing things the day after you move in.
My dad also said that you should never fall in love with your house because you may prevent yourself from seeing great opportunities if you are too “in love” to move.
There are a lot of upfront costs the day after you move in-curtains, bathrugs, furnishings, dish towels, etc.. so don’t forget to take those things into consideration when thinking about costs.
Best of luck to you with whatever you decide, and let us know what happened.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:45 am
I would buy the place and lower the contributions for the time being. Make sure you check out the place thoroughly before putting an offer though. Real estate can be tricky - the agents bluff a lot about “there’s another offer” etc. If you didn’t use an agent to find this property, you might be able to talk with the selling agent to work out a better deal. (They’d have to split the earnings if there are 2 agents whereas if there’s only one, they keep it all).
Unless you plan to stay there long term (more than 5 years), buying the rate down is not really worth it. Even so, many people who *do* plan to stay at a home long term end up moving early because of jobs, growing families, or other events in life.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:00 am
I’d say go with the house, EVEN if you can just barely make it through if others are worth 240k. That’s an IMMEDIATE return of $45,000 - and unless you’re contributing that much per year in your 401k, I think you’d be silly not to - Buying a house IS a big investment, but well worth it, especially at that rate. Big business real-estate firms make money off the PURCHASE of a house, not the SALE. Cash in!
October 26th, 2007 at 9:37 am
“Don’t buy a home (condo, house, whatever) unless you have enough down payment that your mortgage payment is less than 25% of your TAKE HOME pay on a 15 year, FIXED rate mortgage.”
Um that is wrong. I agree that this would be a great ideal, but doesn’t reflect current realities. What if you can purchase a home for the same monthly payment as rent (or less)?
I would say that purchasing a home isn’t all about economics. Finances play a large role, but do not completely overwhelm.
Renting has advantages, more flexibility, reduced risk of repairs, etc.
But renting also has downsides. You don’t own the place, and can be forced to move, submit to inspections. You can’t control your home (ie no painting, changes etc).
You also can’t pick up and go to Zimbabwe as wasy. Tradeoffs.
My inclination would be to purchase the condo, if you can comfortably afford the payments. Also, check into rental restrictions as some condos limit the number of non-owner occupied units. Check the condo assoc’s financial reserves (VERY IMPORTANT - as this determines the ability to pay for common area maintenance, exterior repairs etc)
If you can afford the payment, and decide to live elsewhere you can rent the unit out, and have another stream of income.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:41 am
I wouldn’t worry too much about reducing the 401(k) contribution if you really want to buy as 15% is still quite a lot. The key question is why you want to buy now? It should be because you are ready to settle down somewhere for a few years, not because everyone else is. And you need to be confident that you can afford it.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:47 am
I wouldn’t stress on it. Keep putting money away and save up more down payment. The reason:
We are probably in for another 12 to 18 months of down turn in the housing market. I didn’t see where you are buying and the market is very local (in fact its going up in some places) but here is the assumption I am making:
If you are in a place that is already having short sales your location is one that is over priced and probably will start having more and more foreclosures as the rest of the mortgages reset.
if you have already seen a bunch of foreclosures then go ahead and take the plunge. However, I bet this is the first wave.
if I were in your case, keep saving putting stuff away and wait on the condo til next year. Late next year.
That’s my two cents however I just work in the mortgage servicing side of the business so I could be wrong.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:48 am
J.D., I’m sure you knew this topic would bring me out of lurking.
To be honest, “Justin” doesn’t give us enough information to provide well-informed advice for his situation. Additional details that are pertinent include:
- What city is this in?
- How big (sqft, bedrooms) is the condo?
- Is Justin making a down payment? (It doesn’t sound like it from the post.)
- Will Justin’s loan be a fixed-rate?
The financing questions are especially important, since one of the main benefits to home “ownership” is having a fixed payment (aside from taxes) as your income grows. Without a fixed-rate loan, that advantage disappears.
The questions about what city and the size of the condo are important in assessing the question of “is it a good idea to buy the condo at all.” Ask yourself: “Why is this a short sale?” Doesn’t that mean that the value of the condo dropped since it was mortgaged? Is a 2-bedroom, 1,000 square-foot (or whatever it is) condo really worth $200,000? Really? Given the current state of the real estate market, don’t you think there’s a good chance that the value will continue to drop? Why stretch your finances to buy into a declining asset?
Lastly, although Justin is clearly trying to be somewhat thoughtful about his decision, the use of phrases like “awesome location and a near-perfect floor plan” reveal that he also has already become highly emotionally invested in this potential purchase. Honestly, high emotional investment + low financial investment (little to no down payment) + stretched finances = a recipe for disaster. That’s exactly what has gotten thousands of people into the foreclosure mess that we’re now seeing unfold across the nation.
There’s not enough information here to give Justin concrete advice, but my general advice given the assumptions I’ve stated above would be to hold off, and rent somewhere cheap for the next few years. Your finances will thank you.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:16 am
I don’t know about the rent vs. buy decision (I’ve only ever rented) but I want to add that a nice house can be worth the extra money.
When I quit my day job to go freelance, my husband and I decided to move into a cheaper apartment. After a few weeks of looking at shoebox-sized duplexes with no yard and other downsides, we found the perfect place for a little *more* than we were currently paying.
We agreed to move in that day; it’s totally worth it. My house is beautiful, and we’re in a convenient part of town. There’s a yard for the dogs to run around in, and space for a garden patch, a washer and dryer, a kitchen big enough that a few dirty dishes don’t paralyze all the sink and working space.
For a small increase in rent, we got lots of things that are important to us and probably save a bit of money - like not going to a laundromat, not having the dogs destroy stuff when they get bored (that fenced yard is a godsend) and the efficient kitchen design makes it so easy to cook a meal rather than give up and eat out.
So, my advice to Justin, if he’s not sure whether the cost is worth it, is to ask whether the condo is worth the extra costs to him? If it is, he’ll find room in his budget somewhere, just like you’ll find room for a kid or a pet or a hobby you love. But if it’s not worth it, keep looking.
And one last thing - it doesn’t matter whether $190k is supposedly a deal compared to the other condos. It only matters whether *you* get $190k of value out of it.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:17 am
There’s a lot of great comments on here warning Justin to be cautious about buying into today’s real estate market, but there are a few nonsensical comments as well that I’d like to take a moment to address.
Russ @ 6: “$190K for a $240K property is a huge bargain”
Hank @ 35: “EVEN if you can just barely make it through if others are worth 240k. That’s an IMMEDIATE return of $45,000″
These comments seem to be coming from a mindset that says home prices never go down. This is demonstrably false, and is in fact happening right now all across the country. If this property is sold for $190,000, then it is worth $190,000—no more, no less. In fact, if its previous sale was $240,000, and it is now selling for $195,000, the value of this condo has declined 19% since the last sale. Who is to say it won’t drop further?
Saving Freak @ 7: “Mathematically renters always come out ahead.”
As someone else already pointed out, that’s just plain false. I hope you didn’t get this misguided notion from my guest post. It is true that at the moment, in many markets renters will come out financially ahead of home-buyers, even given a 10 year or longer horizon. However, there are still some markets (mostly in the mid-west and Texas) where buying is actually a better deal than renting, and in a historically “normal” market, buying is usually a better deal.
Jerry in OC MD @ 12: “Justin is the buyer. A Realtor shouldn’t cost him a dime.”
That’s funny, because I thought that in a home transaction the only person that comes to the table with any money is the buyer. Sorry, but “an agent doesn’t cost you anything as a buyer” is a marketing lie that’s perpetuated by the real estate industry.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:31 am
I’m not sure I have any advice for Justin - as others have said, there are too many blanks in the info to fully evaluate this. However, I would like to suggest one thing for him to try. There are plenty of retirement calculators out there - pick one, or several even, and run through them using your current 401K balance - try them with both the 15% and the 20% contribution. I always try those calculators with very conservative estimates (higher inflation rates, lower raise rates and lower returns on my investments) Based on your relative youth, you may find that with compounding, the difference between the 2 contribution rates may be just how much money is left over for your heirs. If, instead, the calculators predict that the rate will be the difference between a nice living and eating cat food in your golden years, well, that would give pause to this purchase idea, wouldn’t it?
October 26th, 2007 at 10:37 am
It is very difficult to look at your own financial situation objectively when you have found home that you really want or think of as near perfect.
If your budget is tight with every possible thing you can think of included, than that doesn’t leave much room for the stuff you didn’t think of. Have you ever been faced with an unexpected cost? It happens to us all. Also, $6000 is a pretty small emergency fund for a single homeowner.
If you are young and single and thinking about paying points, ask yourself how likely is it that you will be keeping the mortgage long enough to recapture that cost. Have you even thought about what life will serve up over the next few years?
Lastly, making a purchase decision under time-pressure may be ok if it is 9:59 AM and they stop serving breakfast at 10, but it’s probably not a good idea to purchase a first home under such pressure. There will likely be other homes, possibly that you will like even more, that you can take some time to evaluate the merits of such a large purchase.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:38 am
I wish people wouldn’t spread the lie about renting being ALWAYS better then buying: I could go into a sociological examination of how this can only hurt the poor, and only benefit the upper class, but i won’t.
I’ve done the math, and it’s almost NEVER worth paying for points! Also, make sure you aren’t paying PMI, if at ALL possible. Another thing to consider with a condo is the Condo Fee (& taxes). Too many people don’t count those in when they are looking at a place to buy.
But seriously, dude, you can SO afford to cut your 401(k) down by 5%points to save on housing.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Don’t buy the condo. It’s luxury disguised as a necessity (i.e., a place to live) and if it’ll put you at the edge of what you can afford, it’s a bad idea. Any time a person is living the highest lifestyle they can afford, it’s a bad idea if they want ever to get rich. What if your employer goes under? How many payments will your emergency fund cover (after using it for food and the like)? The whole thing just leaves you too vulnerable.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:00 am
I would only consider buying a condo or a house in today’s market if I was absolutely sure I wanted to be in it for the duration of raising a family. Read up on the likelihood of a housing recovery. Check out http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2007/10/when-will-housing-bottom.html for example.
Even if you stay in it for 5 or more years, what happens when you want to sell and the price hasn’t recovered yet?
October 26th, 2007 at 11:02 am
uh, I just skimmed the other 43 comments and it didn’t seem like anybody addressed this, so I apologize if this ground has been covered before, but, if “Other condos in the same building even are going for $240,000+” why on earth would the bank short it for $195K? Are they idiots? Did the forclosee rip out and cart off $45K worth of copper piping and granite countertops?
I’m not a realtor, but simple common sense tells me that either the other units aren’t worth $240K, or THIS unit is not worth $240K.
No bank is going to walk away on a $45K investment just to get the property off their balance sheet when they could likely wait a couple months and get a buyer (if it is indeed worth more than the short sale price).
Justin’s realtor is deluding himself, and trying to delude Justin as well.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:27 am
I was thinking the same thing as @47. I’m not convinced this condo is a bargain. Someone else thought it was only worth $190,000. That’s a lot less than $240,000. And if another one sold for $240,000 was THAT person paying a fair price? Or were they bamboozled by the market and paying a hideously inflated price which they’ll regret? It’s hard to say. (Has Justin tried Zillow.com to check? But even condos brought recently may not be a good comparison if the condo-price is in freefall.) I’m worried about not having much spare cash or wiggle room. If this is not the sterling investment that it appears to be, this could be a bad choice. And there are ALWAYS other places with good location and floor plans. Not having the pressure to buy from the roommate situation would allow more choices.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Justin, congratulations on such a GREAT savings rate! You are an inspiration!
Now, on to your decision. I agree with “The Tim” that you really haven’t given us enough to go on. There are a lot of factors in your situation. We don’t even know where you live, so our opinions about whether or not the condo is a good deal are baseless.
I do have a few tips for you, though, as you’re pondering your options…
First, consider the amount of money you’ll be spending on top of that mortgage payment. Think about condo fees, transportation to and from services (if you are moving to a new area, this cost may change), maintenance, furnishings, utilities, and taxes.
Next, look to see if there are any pending assessments. After my husband and I bought our first house, we were blind-sided with a $1k assessment for new road construction. Ouch!
Finally, make sure you look at the budget documents and ask lots of questions. If it’s new construction and the builder is still handling things, the association fee may jump significantly when it’s turned over to the residents (been there, done that).
So, that’s my $.02 for the time-being. Keep in touch. I’d be interested in knowing what you decide to do. Good luck!
October 26th, 2007 at 11:52 am
I have to agree with Telly,icup and others…
There is no such thing as a “deal” in real estate. If you can buy it for $190k then that’s what it’s worth.
There are a million condos out there and the market is going down…wait until you can afford one.
Mike
October 26th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
A real estate purchase is an investment purchase, just like purchasing stock in a 401K. Justin needs to weigh the dollar value of the investment in the condo (in other words, the conservatively estimated equity during the number of years he plans to keep the condo) against the same amount of time he would put that money into the 401K.
If Justin spends 190K on the condo and walks in with equity (personally, I don’t find a home purchase at more than 80% market value truly equitable), chances are good that it is the same percentage of equity that he will walk away with in 30 years–unless he plans to improve the property which is hard to do in a condo.
So, simple math:
Justin spends 190K on a property worth $240. He has 18% equity in his investment. Condo real estate tends to appreciate at or around 8% per year, but this is strongly dependent on the HOA rules and co-tenants. Justin might want to adjust that to 5% just to be on the safe side.
Justin, does this compare to the monthly investment you would make and the return rate on your 401K? That should give you your answer.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
@Mike - There are comps though. Like I bought my house last year for $175K when the same house across the street sold a month later for $190K. I would call that a deal.
The key difference though being:
A.) I bought my house from a private owner, not a bank. They just wanted to sell it quickly, thus they set it at a price that was better than the comps. A bank SHOULD NOT AND WOULD NOT do that.
and B.) I don’t think of the value of my house to be the bigger number of that of the comps, even if I could pay an assessment company to write the bigger number down on a piece of paper to show to people because I don’t think of it as an investment — its where I live. Its value will be what I sell it for in 5-10 years.
You can indeed still get deals in RE, this particular case doesn’t strike me as one though.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Dylan @ 43:
I nominate this for best comment of the week.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
[...] Rich Slowly personal finance that makes cents « Ask the Readers: Buy a Home, or Max Out Retirement Savings? | [...]
October 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
It sounds like buying this condo would make things rather tight, so be sure to examine as many contingencies as possible.
As a few have said already, you’ll have many homeowner-related expenses including insurance, utilities, and condo dues. You ought to assume that the dues will only increase as time goes by.
Also, inquire about the history of condo dues to see if there has been a trend of sharp increases lately. This could tip you off to some potential problems.
Sometimes condo associations will cover costs by assessing special, one-time fees for specific projects. Check to see if there is a history of that.
Inquire about the reserve fund and other accounts held by the condo association. If maintenance and repairs are in the works, but the reserves are low, watch out. That’s a special assessment or condo fee spike waiting to happen.
I live in a condo and enjoy it, but be sure to do your homework before making the plunge. Check out the reserves, check out the budget, check out the long-term plans for upgrades and repairs. (And think twice if there is no long-range plan!) If the condo has a pool, etc., look to see what kind of insurance the association has in case of problems.
Talk to the condo managers to see how responsive they are; good managers will be able to answer most of the questions regarding budget, reserves, rules, and so on. Go to a board meeting and see if things are done competently. Read the by-laws to make sure you agree with the rules and regulations. Visit the condo at different times of day to gauge noise and other factors. If the condo has a pool or other such facilities, check to see if that generates unwanted noise near your unit.
If you think you may want to rent later on, investigate any restrictions on renting. It is usually not healthy for more than 20% of condo units to be rented out at any one time (a rate of higher than 20% can affect mortgage terms, and a high number if renters can hurt the “homeownership” nature of the condo).
Condo living is not for everyone, but for those who like it, it can be a really great thing. Just do your homework!
October 26th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Wow, that’s a tough one. On the one hand I agree that owning a home is a vital step towards financial independence, but on the other hand you don’t want to overextend yourself so you’re house poor. I would make sure your total housing costs don’t exceed 25% of your gross income (for a 30-year fixed mortgage) and then work to save as much as possible for the down payment/closing costs. If your savings are depleted after buying, work to build up an emergency fund ASAP because if something happens with your job/income, you don’t want to be stuck with mortgage payments you can’t afford.
I’ve also read that 15% is the MINIMUM one should save for retirement, so you don’t want your housing costs to be an excuse to stop saving.
Finally, I’m not sure what housing market we’re talking about, but generally condos don’t appreciate as quickly as houses and can be harder to sell/rent if the market goes south.
October 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Real estate is a TERRIBLE investment right now. It seems that the value of the condo and those like it has already dropped by $50k. Though I don’t know the local market, I would be extremely surprised if it gained even 2 or 3 percent in the next 5-6 years. I would not be surprised, however, if it lost a good 20% of its value in the next couple of years.
October 26th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
I just wanted to add a few more comments. To the person who said the bank wouldn’t discount the price it it was truly worth more - you also have to consider the time-value of money. because the bank surely is. They are making the calculation that selling that property now for $190k is better than getting $240k for it 6 months (or whenever) from now.
As for all the folks talking about equity in the property, Justin should be cautious about depending on this. As many have pointed out, real estate is in decline right now, so even the discounted $190k price may not give him any equity in the unit. Unfortunately, the only way to tell exactly how much equity you have in a property is to actually sell it. Until then, you can only estimate. Once when house hunting, I had a salesman at a development tell me that the builder was discounting prices which would provide me with “instant equity”. My BS alarm went off! Let’s see, yesterday, the price tag was $300k but you couldn’t sell, so today you are willing to sell to me at $250k and claim that gives me an instant equity of $50k? It seems to me that would only work if I could find a buyer willing to pay $300k, and if that was easy, why would they lower the asking price? Just be very careful about using this kind of shaky math.
October 26th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
CRAZY! MOST OF YOU READERS ARE CRAZY!
There is no way Justin should buy this condo. $6,000 in EF and $6,500 in savings is not enough of a cushion, especially if he uses some of that to buy points. PLUS no one knows how long/how much he has in his 401k - or how secure his job is - or what the condo fees, mortgage & hazardous insurance , and taxes will be - or what the terms of his loan would be. What about possible increases in utilities or transportation? How about regular repairs and upkeep to the condo? You don’t even know how much he earns!
Justin, if you don’t have 5% wiggle room right now, what it the world makes you think you’ll have it after increasing your expenses? Isn’t the first rule, “Spend Less Than You Earn”?
I’m sorry, I’m a little cranky today and it amazes me that readers of GRS can give out such crazy advice/opinions. And I’m very surprised that J.D. would offer the opinion that this is a good deal. Buying a home should not make finances ‘tight’ - tight is what’s gotten so many home buyers in trouble right now. Restraint and patience are what Justin needs right now.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Dave @ 58:
Exactly. It’s not that the buyer of a $195k condo suddenly has $45k in “instant equity.” It’s that the previous buyers who paid $240k suddenly have -$45k “instant equity.”
And they won’t be too thrilled about it when they find out.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Christiane, I couldn’t disagree with you more about housing being an investment just like the stock market.
As a hard asset with much emotion attached, personal real estate (as opposed to property that provides rental income), cannot and should not be considered an investment. Selling a stock is much easier than packing up all your stuff and moving out.
Furthermore, real estate comes with carrying costs that most likely will negate rising market value (see the following article…http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/102603/why-your-home-is-not-the-investment-you-think-it-is).
There are rare exceptions, of course, like the California market from 2000-2005, but generally, we merely break even at sale. It just seems that we’ve made a lot of money when we receive that big check from the buyer. It’s easy to forget all the cash we’ve laid out maintaining that property in prior years.
Personal real estate is more like a hedge against inflation, as long as it is traditionally-financed. Rental prices may fluctuate with market forces, but your mortgage payment will not as long as it’s a fixed rate. Lest you misunderstand, I am not anti-ownership, but I think we need to be more realistic about the benefits of purchasing.
October 26th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
I agree with all that said about renting being mathematically better than buying. I do this since I left college, so far the benefits are much better than any possible problems (for my lifestyle, married without kids). The first ten years of investing will be decisive to your financial security later.
A couple of quick notes: if buying will take a piece of your investment, plot the two scenarios over a couple of decades. The difference will be significant, and so will be your regret later if you don’t find this decision to be the best for you (OTOH if you absolutely think it’s the best go for it). Also remember that money in the bank is money but a house takes time to be sold and become money again. I suggest you should extend your emergency fund to be safer if you purchase a house, because if you find yourself unemployed and unable to find a job quickly the mortgage alone will devour your fund.
October 26th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Property to live in is an *asset.*
Property is only an investment when it is being rented out.
Investments provide regular financial return on the principal.
I really wish more people understood this.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
“…I agree that owning a home is a vital step towards financial independence…”
Say what!? Incurring a massive, massive debt is a step towards financial independence? Um, NO — especially when you are talking about property the owner lives in. If you are talking about buying a rental property, then *maybe.*
Yes, if someone plans on staying in a house until they die, they will have lower home-related living expenses when the mortgage is fully paid off. However, they will still have to pay for maintenance, property taxes, and perhaps homeowner dues (for condos).
Owning property does not mean that one day (poof!) you’re financially independent. It merely means you own where you live.
Financial independence is about having enough money to live as you wish to live. It is not about whether or not you own the property you live in.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I think it depends on the details. What is this DP? How much of his pay is it? 20%? 30%? 40%? How does it compare to his rental costs?
October 26th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
SR, that’s not true.
A house is an asset, but the mortgage is a liability. ‘Investment’ is not an equivalent accounting term to either asset or liability. Kioyaskai should have been whipped by his CPA for abusing these terms to create dichotomies where none exists.
Also, as everyone who is young knows, their investments are appreciating, but currently provide no “regular return on the principal”. That’s why we all have jobs.
As for Justin, others have pointed out that he needs to decide if he wants to buy because he wants to own or if he simply doesn’t want to rent and his friend is buying. I’ll assume he wants to buy.
First, stop maxing out the 401k. You talk like $200k is a lot of money (it is for most people, so i’m calling your normal) and the problem with a 401k is that you can’t use your money you’ve put into it without penalty. So stop maxing out your 401k. Go 401k to company match, then max out an IRA, then put money in a regular taxable investment account for a few years if the IRA is not enough.
Why? You can pull your principal in an IRA without penalty if you get in a tight spot, and you can pull everything from a taxable investment account if you need to, with 1 years’ worth at your marginal tax rate and the rest at 15%. That’s money you can use.
So if a month gets tight, you have several sources to pull bucks from, and you can sleep at night and enjoy your condo.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Buy, but are you sure you will own it for about 5 years and be sure that you can afford the condo association fees & repairs (you didn’t say the age of the building).
It sounds like the price you are bidding $195k is reasonable and should place you ahead of the other.
You can increase your 401K contribution again when you get pay raises and have a good rainy day fund set aside.
Good luck.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Gosh. Be careful in buying condos. In the last great real estate crash, which happened during the S&L bust, condos lost even more than single-family houses…and that was A LOT. It was harder to unload condos, and when a condo development started to lose value, it could turn with astonishing speed.
I speak from experience, having watched my Significant Other lose $40,000 on a condo as neighbors who couldn’t sell walked away when they were transferred or needed to move for other reasons, leaving their places to be sold at fire-sale prices to people who…well, let me put it this way: The guy who moved in across from Our Hero’s mother, who lived in the same complex, used to stand on his front porch with a gun at his hip and a knife in hand and threaten the neighbors…including said 82-year-old mom.
We ended up having to move her to a senior citizens’ trailer park to get her out of the place. Meanwhile, her son (my S.O.) worked a deal to transfer his own condo to the lender deed in lieu. The lender promptly went into receivership, and the receiver sold the abandoned condo. He had paid 40 grand for the charming, quiet, & roomy place; it sold for $12,000.
In a chancy real estate market, I wouldn’t take a condo if you gave it to me.
Because we tend to conflate “house” with “home,” we all feel a degree of emotional overlay about real estate. But it’s important to remember: A HOUSE OR CONDO IS A FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, not your security blanket. Crucial to purchasing is clarity of vision: try to keep your wits about you as much as you would in buying any other kind of investment.
I’m with the dad quoted above, who said “you should never fall in love with your house because you may prevent yourself from seeing great opportunities if you are too ‘in love’ to move.” Truer words were never spoken.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
icup - what do you define as a comp? Was the house across the street exactly the same as yours in every way? I live in an older neighbourhood so “comps” are never that close.
I’m not saying you didn’t get a deal but the reality with real estate is that usually you never really know if you got a good deal or not (even if you did).
The Tim - thanks for pointing out Dylans comment - hilarious.
Dylan - great comment
Mike
October 26th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
There is not enough information in the article to figure out if it is right or wrong. How much is Justin paying for rent? How much his payments will be including common charges and property taxes? Is heat included in common charges? If not, what type of heat they have - electric, gas or oil? Given tax deductibility of mortgage interest and whether or not heat is included in common charges or rent, how would his payments after tax deduction compare to his rent? People keep talking about paying mortgage and being able to afford it, but they seem to forget that one has to pay rent too. Maybe he will not pay that much more after he takes taxes into consideration. On the other hand, if owning this condo is considerably more expensive than renting a comparable property, this could be a sign the prices are likely to come down more. Personally, I don’t think we’ve seen the bottom yet, but it is different for different areas.
Also, Justin should read condo by-laws to see if everything is acceptable; also check the financial statements to see the amount in reserve, pending assessments, when the place was built, etc. I’ve lived in a complex once where they haven’t raised common charges in several years, and I’ve lived in another complex where they raised it a few times.
“I am not sure what the appeal of a condo. is, but I would prefer to buy a small single, family home over a condo because there are strange fees associated with condo. life, and it’s basically an apartment.”
The appeal of a condo is not to have to worry the roof or to cut grass. Not everyone needs or wants a backyard. “strange fees” associated with the condo go to take care of the grounds, to cut grass, to clean up the driveway after the snow storm, to repair walls or roof. You are normally responsible for everything inside, but not for walls or outside structure. For example, when the bees made a nest in the attic, I called the management company, and they took care of it and repainted the ceiling. Same when there was a leak in the ceiling on the top floor (if it were between the rooms, I’d be responsible, but if the problem is with the roof - the management takes care of it).
Most condos have a pool, so common charges go toward it as well. In some condos - usually not in the townhouses, but often in one level apartments, the heat may be included in common charges. Some condos may be newer than most houses, so there may be less repairs. The flipside is that if the majority decides to replace the siding even if you think the old can last a few more years, you may be faced with an assessment for a remodeling project you don’t want. So there are advantages and disadvantages. Childless couples and single people often prefer condos because they don’t want extra hussle.
“you’ll have many homeowner-related expenses including insurance, utilities, ”
Condos normally have a common insurance policy that covers fire, storms and the like, the premiums are paid from common charges. This is usually enough for most mortgage companies. You can optionally buy additional insurance to insure your own belongings and whatever improvements you made, but this is usually relatively cheap. Heat is sometimes included in common charges, other utility costs are same as with renting.
“In the last great real estate crash, which happened during the S&L bust, condos lost even more than single-family houses…and that was A LOT”
True. But you can rent your condo out. The interesting thing about this crash was that more expensive condos lost more in absolute amounts than the cheaper ones, so it was great time for upgrading. This was when I moved from my one bedroom into a townhouse, rented out one bedroom, than sold with a nice gain in early 2000s. Easiest money I’ve ever made. Crash is only matters if you really need to sell. So it is important to investigate the condo rules about renting, also how much the rent is for these condos and how easy they are to rent out.
I don’t really know from the information what Justin should do. I wouldn’t buy right now, but in my area prices are still too high.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
@fourpillars - the ‘comp’ across the street is ‘pretty close’ to mine, but really i use the selling price of homes comparable to mine as the roughest of estimates, and even then, i would never consider that money in the bank.
@dave, I don’t think time-value has anything to do with this example. if there truly are ‘other condos in the same building selling for 240k’ as justin says, why doesn’t the bank sell *that* unit for 240K? The answer is: because the others aren’t selling for that much. somebody is exaggerating. my guess is his realtor ’says’ they go for 240K, but probably is using last years’ sales data. either that or the bank is trying to go out of business.
October 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
The_Overdog: Perhaps I should clarify — in, for example, my 401k, most of my funds pay dividends, in addition to the money earned as the stock/bond values rise.
Also, even though the house is an asset, with a (of course) liability as mortgage, the home price could drop dramatically — especially in the current housing market. As such, buying a home now won’t necessarily make it a viable short-term asset.
While my definition of investment is something that provides money, obviously most people are not tapping that income on a regular basis, and are instead allowing the interest and earnings to compound. You seem to have missed the meaning in what I wrote. You write:
“Also, as everyone who is young knows, their investments are appreciating, but currently provide no “regular return on the principal”. That’s why we all have jobs.”
You misunderstand and are incorrect. I’m not saying that when someone is young, their returns are likely to provide them with enough living income, because young people generally don’t have that kind of principal. Also, if investments aren’t providing a regular rate of return (aka earnings), it’s likely to be a wise move to change investments. If the investments *are* earning money, then they are (it seems obvious) *earning a regular rate of return.* Maybe the return is 4% one year, and 12% the next. Regardless, that is a return and can be used as present day income.
My point is that (good) investments appreciate, and that if someone so chose, they could *at any time* cash out some or all of the earnings (obviously not an IRA or 401k — unless penalties are paid). So, if my current portfolio goes up 10%, I could take that out *as income* and leave the remainder to continue appreciate. Thus, if I if were to do this on a quarterly/yearly basis, I would be getting a “regular rate of return” on my money. Obviously, the rate is highly likely to be variable, but the regularity and return still exists.
My logic is not wrong. The phrase “regular rate of return” is meant to convey what all investments should be doing — earning money for the investor. This seems pretty clear to me.
Obviously, not all investments will earn money. Thus, they are called “bad” investments. Pursuant, houses do not always appreciate, and as they provide no income (unless as rentals) or tangible and accessible money (based on their current value) to the owner, they are not an investment. (Yes, I understand you agree houses should not be considered “investments.”)
October 28th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Hello everyone. Sorry for the (really) late comment. I was away for the weekend, and I wasn’t quite expecting such a vivid discussion.
Thanks for all the comments. I’ll try to address the major points, since there are too many to individually respond at this point. I know there were many holes; that is because I both did not feel comfortable revealing the information, and also because I deemed it not relevant for what I was looking for. I was asking this more to get a feel of what other people felt of the idea, especially those who follow a similar financial philosophy as me.
I did end up placing a bid on the condo, which was then rejected after 2 other bids came in within a couple days. The owner then basically said that it’s the list price ($200k) or nothing, which made me feel that the owner was playing a game. I was no longer comfortable at this point, so I left it alone. I’m going to still keep looking around, and I’ll be keeping tabs on the condo to see if it’s still on the market in another 3 or 4 weeks. If it is, I’ll consider rebidding lower.
One major concern was the “extra” costs beyond mortgage associated with owning. I took all those into consideration, including home-owners association (HOA), taxes, PMI, utilities, etc. I then added necessities (food, gas, etc) and then non-necessities (cell, cable, etc). This was all included when I say it was tight. I did my homework on the HOA also, and they are pretty stable. I did not ask about the specific amount of reserve, but I’ll be sure to add that to my list in the future.
After talking to a mortgage agent, I pretty much realized points are worthless at my stage in the game. I’m looking at 3-7 years in the place, with something around 5 being the most likely. I am specifically only looking at 30-year, fixed rate mortgages. Right now, it would be crazy not to in my market, since the rates are almost comparable to ARMs.
I am not choosing to consider buying because of some sort of mega-version “Joneses” game with my roommate. We had both already talked about looking around for places before either of us began, and to keep renting if we didn’t find anything. He did find something, and I am looking as I was going to anyway. He didn’t change anything other than remove the option of keeping the status quo. If I do rent for another year, I will be still be considering dropping my 401k rate (possibly even down to maximum match) and saving the difference into a housing account.
For those who mentioned something related my tastes and/or my choice of adjectives on the condo: I have nothing to rely on except what will make me happy now. I do not know what will do so in the future, and it is impossible for me to know. Therefore, planning for it is simply silly. The condo and location had everything which I deemed important to me when I began looking. That is the most I can expect.
There were a couple good points about the idea of comps, by definition, asserting that all properties are only worth the cheapest price, and it is one that I’ll keep in mind in the future. But, I do have to disagree with the black-and-white nature of that statement. Everything has shades of grey, and it is possible to find a good deal among comps. If a store has a sale on an item for a dollar off, does that mean the item is automatically worth that lower amount and nothing more? The answer is that, one cannot instantly equate price and value. It might very well be worth more than the higher price, or less than the lower price, or anything in between. The sale does not change the value of the object, only the price of it. (This is the same fundamental behind Warren Buffett’s strategy: Buy the stocks who’s value is more than their price, then wait for the price to catch up.)
October 29th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Condos - important things to know before you buy. 1) Unlike houses condo homeowners fees continue to rise. Mine has gone up 400% since I first bought. 2) Because of the rising HO fees, new buyers are harder to find because they have to be able to handle the HO fees as well as the mortgage - that is the reason condos are not usually seen as an investment along with unstable values. As mentioned above values keep changing. My condo has roller-coastered in value recently. In the past 2 years it dropped 30K in value, after rising 30K for one year only, prior to that 1 year increase it was stable in value (no real increase/decrease) for 12 years. 3) Condo homeowners share liability with their neighbors - example, if an person dies on the property such as drowning in the pool, and the death is found to be a wrongful death, the hoemowners share financial responsibility and must pay the judgement. This is not covered in HO fees. You must individually buy extra insurance to protect yourself. If you can find a way to buy a house, you will build equity and limit liability. 4) You must be sure your personally purchased HO insurance covers damage to your neighbors units if something goes wrong in your unit. I had condo insurance from State Farm for the past 20 years, when I called this year to make sure damage to my neighbors would be covered in the event a water hose breaks and floods my units and my neighbor’s unit - they laughed! [really!] That should be standard in condo insurance - but not for this company. I had to change insurance companies to get this important coverage. My neighbor whose toilet overflowed faced $20K in repairs for damages to her unit nd her neighbors. 5) Make sure you like your neighbors before you buy - go meet them and see what they have to say about the HO association. Best wishes
October 31st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
I must side with those who prefer a small, single-family home. The additional costs (monthly fees, insurance, whatever else) are gone each and every month, and there is something great about not having to a share a wall with anyone. That said, some people really do prefer condo living, so if he knows that he will be there for a while, and he loves the place, why the heck not? It could lead to a fine situation down the road, and if you are happy in the home that is the best news of all.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:06 am
JD - I’d love to see this post revisited to get the perspective of time. Funny how time provides a perspective. I’m not sure if this post will get any visibility but I’d love to hear from all the folks that advised him to buy. I imagine if Justin moved ahead with the deal he is in waaayyy over his head and holding a mortgage that has him deeply underwater. Too bad so many folks ignored the signs or downplayed the signs of the failing markets mentioned by a few posters above.
By the way, in almost EVERY market renters come out ahead. People tend to dramatically underestimate the costs of maintaining a home. Face it, if you have to do just ONE major repair or maintenance item (painting, siding, roof, furnace, etc., etc., etc.) and then pay a 6% commission to sell you are already very DEEPLY in the hole if you move within the typical 7yr span of most home owners. The freak market we experienced with 10%+ appreciation is long gone! When the markets finally stop spiraling downward the appreciation will be lucky to keep up with inflation - much like it was for all the decades previous to the wacked out early 2000’s.
That said, as long as you realize you are paying for the experience of owning a home it does have its advantages over renting. For many people the financial advantage is the forced saving approach that a mortgage brings. Of course during the past decade most people pulled all the equity out and blew it on depreciating assets so they lost out on the forced savings benefit anyway.
August 1st, 2009 at 5:03 pm
If you could use more money for a down payment have you considered loaning from your 401K? I believe there is a first time home buyer option that would allow you to do this without a penalty.
Also unless you plan on keeping the house for a long time, it may not be a good idea to waste your money on buying points to lower your interest rate.