Ask the Readers: How Do You Live Frugally Without Seeming Like a Loser?
Published on - March 21st, 2008 (by J.D. Roth) In Wednesday’s discussion about how to live on less and love it, Steve left an interesting comment:
One topic I never see covered is “extreme finances” or even simple frugality in relationship to being single. I’m not talking about being a cheapskate during dinner, but maintaining a low-powered lifestyle while seeking a mate. Like it or not, first impressions count and first impressions are often based on superficialities, even by nice and otherwise deep people.
Yes, there is always the rare person who will not care if you drive an old car or live in a cheap apartment, but other people don’t see old cars and cheap apartments as choices for a well thought-out philosophy, but as indicators that someone does not have his life together.
Is frugality beyond a certain point something that is for married people only?
This comment prompted Ben to respond to me via e-mail:
This is something that’s been on my mind as I try to improve my spending habits while preparing to return to an active date-hunting, mate-seeking lifestyle.
It’s not just about dating, though — if anything, that’s the easy part; just say “hey, how about the park?” instead of “Let me treat you to Chez Expensivique.” The hard part is trying to live your whole life frugally without seeming a) cheap, or b) a loser. (“No, honest, I choose to drive this reliable older car, it’s not that I can only afford to crawl along in my grandfather’s half-dead Gremlin!”) Frugal choices can make an impression that you don’t want to make.
Most discussion on this topic seems to focus on “Don’t worry about what other people think,” which is hard when you’re trying very hard to make a very good first impression on those people so they’ll want to date you. After all, it’s one case where we really are being judged by others — and should care about what those judgements are. The only other response I tend to see is “here’s some cheap date ideas” — which, like I said, is the easy part. After all, even wealthy, spendy-type folks go for walks in the park.
These gentlemen have a point: how does one live frugally without looking cheap?
During my last week at the box factory, a potential customer dropped by to make a surprise visit. When I know that I’m going to see somebody I need to impress, I try to look halfway decent. But on that day I was wearing a ten-year-old sweatshirt with fraying cuffs and a fraying collar. I had on a beat-up pair of sneakers. There was no simple way for me to explain to this man, “Yes, I know I might look like a slob, but it’s for all the right reasons.”
In dating and business and day-to-day life, people do judge us by superficial standards. How do you maintain a frugal lifestyle without giving the impression you’re cheap?
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I met the woman who is now my wife during the dot-com boom… I had gotten lucky with a few startups, and was still young and stupid enough to be spending frivolously. (I look back with horror at some of my financial stupidity.)
She was actually put off by the fancy clothes/car/penthouse and wouldn’t go out with me. It wasn’t until after enough time had passed that she had gotten to know me that she agreed to go out on a “date.” By first impressions alone, only the shallow women you don’t WANT to go out with were attracted to the flashy bits.
My point here is that either end of the spectrum can be a turn-off. While it’s tough to find a date when you’re driving a ’74 Ford Pinto and wearing sweatpants with holes in them… it can also be tough to find a smart woman who isn’t shallow when you’re in a flashy car and decked out in Armani.
The goal should be to land somewhere in the middle– I like the comments about the older but well maintained car, not the latest clothes, but always clean and pressed, etc. This seems like the sweet spot to me.
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I am in the same situation, Mid 20′s, dating, frugal. A few thoughts on my experiences:
1) I can’t date women and expect it to be free. I’ve come up with many fun inexpensive dates; the key has been to maintain this frame of mind. When I expect that I’m not going to be able to spend no money, I’m not upset when I do. This allows me to set up a budget for dating. By setting aside funds beforehand, I don’t feel like I’m losing money when I go out with women. These are planned expenses just like any other in my budget.
2) I don’t apologize for being frugal. I don’t apologize for my date ideas possibly being considered cheap. Get those ideas out of your head. In fact, I don’t mention anything of the sort. When I make plans I simply say something along the lines of, “we should do this, it’s a ton of fun and they have really cool stuff to see”. This is 180deg from an apologetic, non-confident person who would say something like, “I guess we can go to the park then the free museum, it’s not expensive but…”. By keeping the frame of mind that the way I spend money is normal, not unusual, I convey confidence and attractiveness and draw no attention to the fact that what I do is different than others. If I secretly believe that what I’m doing is “cheap”, she will pick up on it as women pick up on subtle communication, body language, and tone of voice. The key for me has been to convince myself that what I’m doing with money is right and that allows me to be confident and for that confidence to radiate in every aspect.
3) Let your personality and confidence make the first impression. When I meet women they have no idea what kind of car I drive. They don’t know where I live. They are going to make a decision to go out with me again based on how I present myself. Now if things get more involved and on later meeting she comes over to my place or sees my car, she’s probably not going to just get up and leave if she sees they’re not high-class. She’s spent time getting to know me, she likes me, and she’s much more willing to overlook social negatives like having an older car or a lower-rent apartment.
4) When it comes to physical appearance; clothing, haircut, grooming, etc, these are areas that must be handled properly to not put up red flags. It’s well known that first impressions are made within seconds, so extra thought must go into what image you are projecting. It doesn’t matter if you have a $100 haircut of if you buzzed it yourself; just make sure it is clean and well groomed. It doesn’t cost anything but time to ensure your face and neck is well groomed. Spend the time to make it look like you care about yourself. Clothing should be clean, fit you well and make you look good. I don’t spend much money on clothing by often shopping used and I stretch my outfits by buying inexpensive accessories like hats, jewelry, coats/over-shirts, etc. You don’t need to spend a lot to look good.
5) Something I was just thinking about while writing this. If you are concerned about appearing cheap, find out if you actually are cheap. Dealing with being considered cheap has been a recent struggle for me. I used to hate it when we’d leave a tip at a restaurant and I had to pony up an additional dollar or two because my friends skimped on the tip. My friends would then look at me like, how can you be so cheap that you aren’t going to throw in another dollar or two? When I added up how much this and other little things like this would cost me I was amazed. I figured it couldn’t cost me more than $10 or $15 a month to handle these uncomfortable social situations. I realized that for less than $200 a year I would never have to feel cheap in a situation like this again. This was a no brainier for me and now I often overpay by a few dollars on shared meals and my friends now think I’m generous rather than cheap.
Wow, this is WAAAY longer that I expected it to be and I still have so much more to say. Hope this helps.
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I always looked at cheap as just that. In other words of less quality. I look as frugal as smart, as in why spend more then you have to,while not compromising quality? I’m justa saying!
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Does anyone else have “Can’t Buy Me Love” in their head after reading this?
Time is the one thing we all have everyday, and we each get the same amount to spend. How you spend your time may be telling your date more than how you spend your money.
Something I heard about that may be looking into was this time dollars program. If you volunteer at charitable events (even as an usher), you could eventually turn that time into, for example, tickets to the opera or another community event. Not only would the volunteering score major points on the humanitarian scale with some women, the free tickets to really upscale events would be prize date options. Check it out in your community, it is worth a shot. You might even meet a very nice potential date who is also volunteering.
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This is more of a problem for men because men are judged more on what they do, women, more on how they are. Not that it’s 100% either way, but that’s the general way of it.
I agree with the previous commenter who said to focus on quality, since that’s one of the thriftiest things there is without seeming cheap, and with those who said, more or less, to stay in motion and focused. If you’re living in a grungy, dilapidated house, it’ll still be hugely impressive if you bought it free and clear at sheriff’s sale and are fixing it up yourself.
Or, as Emerson said, “Men imagine that they communicate their virtue or vice only by overt actions, and do not see that virtue or vice emit a breath every moment.”
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“Frugality” and “Cheapness” are not equivalent terms or qualities. Many people often use these terms to mean the same qualities, incorrectly. I am frugal, not cheap. Here’s why:
Frugality is akin to thriftiness. Frugality is the practice of acquiring goods and services at minimum cost, achieved via economical restraints or creative measures. Frugality can be related to the idea of being conservative or conserving money. (Wikipedia)
Cheap traditionally referred to more miserly qualities. A person who is reluctant to spend money, usually to the point of forgoing even basic comforts. The term derives from the Latin miser, meaning “poor” or “wretched.” (Wikipedia)
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I wrote on this very topic last week. Then the following day I had a discussion with my co-worker (who doesn’t know I blog) about it. It’s not easy, and I haven’t found the solution, though there are some good tips here!
What I think it comes down to is confidence and allocation of money. Maybe you spend a great deal of money going out to lunch with co-workers, if you were to cut back on that you could spend a bit more on dating… And answer the question, do YOU feel like you’re being “cheap” or do you feel like your date thinks your being cheap. If you feel like your date thinks you are cheap then maybe you’re dating the wrong type of person?
-Daniel @ young and frugal
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Baddriver’s comment is great, and tip #5 is genius. So true. So, so, so true.
Skimping on the tip is an absolute dealbreaker for me. If you have to, ‘fess up to being bad at math and ask your date.
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I try to keep the balance in my frugality by spending money for work clothes and not spending money on my non work clothes. In advertising you need to look good. You don’t have to have the trendiest clothes and you don’t need to wear suits but you can’t look like you walked in off the street. So, I choose to spend my money there and the clothes I wear at home and on the weekends are old and not great, but I’m ok with that. As for the relationship part, I have no advice. My fiance spends whatever she wants and there’s no stopping her.
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This put a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean in my head. At the end of the first one, when Elizabeth goes off with Musketeer Will, Norrington accepts the situation with a line like, “The sword you made me is excellent. I expect the man who made such a sword to exercise such care in every matter in his life.”
You need to show not that you will spend, but that you will care.
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I am coming at this from a bit of a different angle, but I was married for about 30 years before becoming widowed at 50. The whole dating thing was new to me, but I lived a frugal lifestyle and wanted someone who was the same. Not a tightwad/cheapskate, but not a spend thrift.
I found myself with men who thought they had to spend the world to impress me, even though it was obvious this was not their ability or lifestyle and then there were the downright miserly men and it was obvious why they were still single. One date asked me for dinner after church. I was talking to someone and he said he would meet me at the restaurant. I thought it strange, but ok. When I got there he had already gone in, was in line for the buffet and I had to find him. Well, the reason he had to get there was because the prices went from breakfast low to dinner high at 11:30, but if you paid by 11:30 you got dinner for the breakfast price! Needless to say I did not go out with him again!
However, I have remarried and my current husband was upfront about his spending and being frugal from the start. We were on the same plane and I liked it and his honesty. He made a great impression (obviously since we are now married!)
As a woman, pick a nice place, walk in the park, picnic etc. If she is what you are looking for she will like it.
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Even though they guys said they didn’t want cheap date ideas reading some of the comments, its seems that others do. Here is my perspective on dating frugally and some of my recent dates.
My first rule, I don’t pay for her. I’ll stop a minute for you to take that in. I can already hear some of you shouting, you cheap bastard. Again, this comes back to frame of mind and the context of the situation. I don’t ‘take’ girls out to dinner. To me that is a throwaway date, soooo clichéd. She’s probably thinking, if I end up liking him great, if not at least I get a nice dinner out of it. If we happen to eat together it’s just that, we eat ‘together’ and we split the check. Often if it’s inexpensive she’ll pay for me. By setting the context as “Let’s check out this local place, I hear they have amazing deserts.” We are two people going to eat together, not me ‘taking’ her out.
Some of you may think this doesn’t work but it does. Again, it’s all about context and frame of mind.
Some recent dates:
-Have a slice at one of the highest rated pizza places in the city. I have a list and my goal is to eat a slice at each place by the end of 2008.
-Check out the local skateboarding hotspot. There’s a playground/park near me that has a bunch of really good skateboarders who meet up when the weather’s good. Sitting on a park bench watching them is a great mental distraction and takes the pressure off of having to constantly come up with things to talk about.
-Explore Chinatown or other immigrant neighborhood. There are so many interesting foreign things to discover and the food is usually very inexpensive.
-Walk in the park. I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but when the weather is nice, this is one of my favorite things to do.
-Shopping at the thrift store. Brings me back to elementary school playing dress up in fun, sometimes ridiculous outfits.
-Bringing her along to a social gathering or party I was already going to with my friends.
I’d love to hear other’s dates that they know work, but that might be the topic for another thread entirely. Thanks JD for having this discussion.
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I think it’s sexy when men are frugal BUT also generous and creative. Examples: a guy is frugal in his daily life but gives a ton to charity because that’s what matters more; a guy is frugal with daily stuff but puts money toward something that really matters, like traveling overseas every year; a guy who is so creative with his dates (museums, cooking me dinner, great hole-in-the-wall neighborhood restaurants, the beach, outdoors stuff, etc.) that I don’t even notice he’s not spending tons of money taking me to cheesy, expensive dinners.
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Are you interested in attracting a woman who is frugal (or is willing to be frugal when “the time is right” (marriage or whatever)? I consider this a high priority — when seeking out a mate I do have certain qualities that I select on, including future potential to be skilled in personal finances (or at least willing to do what *I* say! hehe). What I guess I’m suggesting is that this guy will attract what he advertises for. If he doesn’t advertise his frugality, he won’t be assured of getting someone who is ok with that. Who’s to say that a woman who expects a guy to have a nice new car will change when marriage happens and suddenly want to save and be frugal? If this doesn’t matter to him, maybe he is right, that he should get the car to get the chick if he really thinks it will increase his chances. But, personally, I don’t consider that a valid quality in a woman.
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What it comes down to is you need to find someone who doesnt think you are cheap or more like that being cheap is not a bad thing. I dunno how hard that is. But basically think about this, do you want to date someone who is thinking that your lifestyle is loserish. Find a mate who thinks that your lifestyle is wise, economical, and beneficial. Yeah, you wont likely find these people at the meat market or at church or any of the popular places to meet people because frugality is not popular.
think about it — can you see yourself getting into a long term live-in relationship with someone who is going to want/expect you to break your frugal lifestyle in order to maintain a certain standard of living or keeping up with the joneses? do you think that will work out well?
be up front about your lifestyle and try to find people who share it or see the wisdom of it. Otherwise you are asking for big trouble.
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A man with a goal – i.e. spending wisely, paying off debt, saving for the future – is a very attractive thing. You may think that women only look at things like clothing, cars, house, etc., but that’s such a lie! As previously posted, only shallow women care about shallow things.
However, a woman needs to know that she is more important than some “goal.” This doesn’t mean you have to lavish expensive things on your date, just that you need to put some time and thought into how you date frugally, so that it’s obvious you’re not just “cheap.” And personally, I’d go for creative and free any day over standard and expensive.
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@Jane
He most certainly already knows cleanliness is a virtue, especially in dating. That’s not rocket science.
It is for some. And there are different types of messiness. I briefly dated someone who was beautifully groomed (bespoke clothing because he was a nonstandard size, fabulous ties, etc.), but his condo was cluttered enough that another person couldn’t really even fit into his life.
I like really geeky types, the sort who often think that presenting a well-groomed appearance is too superficial to be bothered with. I disagree. It’s a pain.
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This is an issue near and dear to me so I will try to address Ben’s concerns:
1. Frugal Dating
Dating should be fun, active and free/cheap. There are tons of ways to do this. Coffee, glass of wine (each buy a round), walk in the park, picnic, trip to the beach, museums on free days, rollerskating, ice skating, art gallery (free wine!), window shopping in art district/high fashion district, shopping at the mall, cook dinner at home (let her help and tell her to bring the wine), go out for desert (not full meal), when dining out go dutch. As far as dating, i think that “going dutch” is more culturally acceptable these days anyway. Expensive dates are boring anyway and dont build connection (stuffy fancy restaurants, movies where the two of you are not interacting, falling asleep at a play or opera) Men assume that women want a guy to impress them with wealth but if you ask most women, I think they would disagree. Spoil her with your personality and passion, not your money from the first date to your 50th wedding anniversary.
2. Seeming like a loser. I hear what you are saying but this is all in your mind. If you are insecure about the money issue, dont bring it up, assume its no big deal. If this is very important to you, be prepared to express it with strength and passion and with good reason (if it comes up, which it shouldnt). You can be a rich movie-star and still feel like a loser, so money is not the issue.
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I do it by spending mindfully on things that will make a good but not extravagant first impression, especially at work. I invest in quality clothing pieces that will hold up to the travel, frequent washing/dry cleaning, and professional image required. These are generally found in nicer clothing stores, but I redeem the points I earn on my corporate credit card for gift cards to those stores.
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RE: My frayed clothes
Believe it or not, I agree with those of you who have pointed out that this is lazy and cheap. I have a tendency to get stuck in certain ways of thought, and this is a perfect example. I continue to wear clothes that are too small or too big or too tattered or too stained, all because I hate the idea of moving to something new. It feels like a waste of money.
But I know plenty of ways to save money on clothing, right? I know how to shop at thrift stores. I know how to buy quality. I should do this. For some reason, I’ve always been reluctant to do so.
Maybe this is something I can work on over the next year. That way when I meet fellow GRSians, you won’t think, “That J.D. — he’s not frugal, he’s cheap!”
p.s. Remember that Steven and Ben are asking about more than just dating. They’re talking about first impressions in all situations. I think the “neat and clean” answers are a good example of what they’re looking for…
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Frugality is about cutting excess and unneeded, not about deprivation or accepting inferiority. Once efficiency of living lean is accepted, it is easy to do and it doesn’t take much to feel excessive or extravagant. If you can live leaner, when things come up that can’t be skipped on or done in a completely frugal spirit (say like car repairs), maybe the money will be there to take care of business or take that trip out of town with friends for the weekend.
What others have said here about dating is true. Making others feel special and being generous with your time shows who you are and how you relate to them. Just because you can shell out cash for entertainment and food doesn’t really mean anything when it comes to your relationship with the other person. If they don’t understand you, maybe they’re not the right person or maybe you’re really boring.
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Perhaps we should ask Wal*Mart – in all their interviews about the company, they always parade around their corporate offices (still small and decorated with faux wood panelling from the 1960s). They flipped that and turned it into something desirable.
I too have wondered this. Many of my relatives (of whom I admire) live modestly and are all financially secure, but they don’t really ‘appear’ cheap. Perhaps it’s because what they have is perfectly maintained. Their 20 year old car shines and interior is clean. Their 50 year old furniture, while not stylish, is durable and clean. Perhaps that is the key?
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Its a matter of perception. My roomate thought I was a loser for wearing goodwill t-shirts in college while saving up for a down-payment on a car.
I thought he was a loser for putting a new computer, clothes, and rent on a credit card. I also thought he was a loser for going through 3 cars in the 4 years we lived together. Each time he was upside-down on the loan. He’s about to graduate (5 year plan) and will owe student loans. He owes $20k on a car worth $20k after making payments since I’ve known him. His parents have been making payments for him all along. He’s smart, and looks cool, but fiscally he’s screwed and will likely rely on his parents for many years.
He’s a good friend though!
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I second most of the posters, but would emphasize the following:
Look in the right places — If you go to expensive bars and clubs, there’s a pretty good chance she’ll want something expensive. On top of the many suggestions, I add trying free intenet dating sites such as OKCupid (if it’s free, that says what she can afford).
Pay attention to her interests — She may have a surprising number of cheap or free interests–hiking, biking, museums, or movies (which are pretty cheap thru Netflix)
Cook for her — For some reason women love that. I’ve also had good luck with handmade cards (I gave my grad school girlfriend a drawing of a bunch of flowers in crayon as a surprise; you’d have thought I bought a dozen roses; it hung on her fridge for months) and cheap flowers. You don’t need a $25 bunch or roses. Some women really like mums or daisies or really bright carnations. And if you do it for no reason, they like ‘em better.
Finally, find the right person. If she can’t understand why you’re frugal, she’s not a potential long-term partner.
The woman I’ve been dating for about a year makes very little money (less than half of what I make) but is independent enough that she doesn’t want me paying for everything and feeling like she’s taking advantage of me. The challenge has been dating frugally for *her* sake, not mine. But then that’s just one of the many ways in which I’m lucky to be with her.
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I write for a blog completely dedicated to this exact issue, as it pertains to living in Los Angeles: http://www.fwyok.com
LA is a particular challenge since it has a high cost of living and places a particularly high emphasis on style.
However, I find that living without an excess of money can be a source of creativity and social courage, if someone is willing to put the effort in. This, inevitably, is a one-way ticket out of loser-town.
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I believe a gentleman who is budget minded needs to portray to a potential mate that he can financially take care of his family due to the choices he makes.
Subconsciously a woman thinks when a man drops money on her, lives well and has a nice car that he is financially stable. We as frugal people know that is not always the case, but I am talking on a primitive level.
A frugal man has to put more of an effort into the actions he does for her and assure her through getting to know her that he can provide for a family based on how he lives his lifestyle.
Cheap and frugal are two different things. Cheap intrudes other people on your decisions. Cheap is when you split a Popsicle to give to your children’s friends only to give your children a whole piece. Frugal is splitting a Popsicle for your children and their friends. Cheap is having the inexpensive beer at your party for your friends and keeping the good stuff in the fridge for yourself.
You can do romantic things on a frugal budget. My husband surprised me with a dozen flowers for our 15 year dating anniversary (That we no longer celebrate). While doing the laundry I found the receipt – he spent $8 on the dozen. The thought meant so much to me, and the idea he was so savvy was impressive.
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here’s the thing
i want the person i’m dating to like me for who i am.. not what i have.. so it really shouldn’t matter
i used to try really hard to try and impress the opposite sex.. but nowadays i don’t care as much.. i drive a tercel to work.. i wear casual clothes that make me feel comfy.. i own two pairs of jeans that have lasted me almost a decade.. i don’t care what people think
i admit sometimes i look like a complete loser.. but knowing that i have money in the bank makes me feel comfortable
don’t judge a book by it’s cover!
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I think most people here misunderstood why they pursue financial independence. We should look at what makes us happy. Its easy to say dont care what people think of you,but thats hard to do. We are all humans, one of the biggest things to happiness is relationships and we do care what people think of us. You have to balance out who you are and how you want people to percieve you. Sure you can save 1 million dollars not having kids and wife, people here just dont know happiness
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As a chick, here’s my two cents.
We all know that there is a difference between cheap and frugal. CHEAP raises red flags to women, I don’t care what other say. My experience with men is that men who are cheap with their money are cheap with their emotions too. No exeptions.
Cheap was my ex who used to eat my groceries and not replace them. Frugal is my current boyfriend who treats me to a nice dinner on the weekend using a 50% off coupon from the entertainment book.
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ARGH I think baddriver’s rule on not paying is really bad. I wouldn’t even go on the date if I know the guy’s not paying. When the bill comes and he splits it, I’ll feel stupid like I was all excited about a date when it’s really just a friendly dinner.
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Neat and clean. Open your mind to tailoring. If you just gasped for air, relax. If you tailor your clothes they will look better and probably last longer. Ask a well-groomed co-worker for a recommendation, he/she will be flattered by the compliment. A lot of the clothes already in your closet could be tailored to look a lot more sophisticated and neat, and you wouldn’t have to buy new clothes or part with the items you love.
Ask a trusted friend to help you clean out your closet and rid yourself of anything you’d be embarrassed for a really cute new date to see you in. Try things on if you have to before making the cut. (Make sure it is someone who can be blunt and honest with you!)
One of the best ways to be making a good first and second impression with a woman is by asking the right questions. If you are listening and asking questions and she is telling you more about herself that is good good good. Then, next time you see her, it is so nice when you follow up with a “So how was that concert you were excited about having front row tickets for?” she will be so flattered that you remembered the conversation and note to herself that you are a thoughtful and considerate person and a great conversationalist. And you did all that without spending a single cent.
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I think this is another example of cheap versus frugal. I’ve been looking for a new (to me) car to replace my aging Sentra. After doing some research, I decided that an even older car (of a different make, which in my case happens to be a BMW) would be the best option because 1> I wanted something fun to drive because I’m in my car a lot, and 2> I wanted something reliable.
When was the last time you saw someone driving around in a clean BMW and thought “That guy’s cheap”. And yet the whole deal has only cost around $4500. I anticipate getting 5-10 years out of the car with good maintenance. Sounds like a good investment to me.
If I was “cheap” I probably would have held out until the Sentra died, and then spent $2000 on another Japanese economy sedan, which would have died a couple years later, and so on, and so forth.
It’s all about the choices you make.
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J.D., I never thought you didn’t know not to wear that, I just thought it wasn’t relevant to the post as a whole. The post is about dispelling unfair first impressions….
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Precious has a point. If I pay my own way on the first date, I make a mental note that he isn’t interested in dating me. And then I’d wonder why he picked a romantic or nice restaurant if we were just buds. Talk about a good way to bewilder and alienate a girl.
If you’re already friends though, it could work. You’ve probably hung out before as friends and each paid your own way. If not, don’t confuse the girl. She probably thought you liked her when you asked her to dinner, and if you expect her to pay half and that is a surprise to her, she’ll probably think that she said something at dinner to change your mind before the bill came. Not exactly what you want her to be thinking when you ask her out again.
“Alligator Arms” – A woman with arms too short to reach her purse when the check comes. (A woman should pay her way for many things, but first dates and special occasions and when you’ve picked the place, you should pay.)
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Hey Ben,
I’m just recently off the dating scene & happily with my frugal nerd. I really liked Bad Driver’s #52 comment.
I actively didn’t really like my guy the first 3 years that I knew of him. We were on our own not in great places. I think one important thing that happened during our non-dating time was that we both became more comfortable with ourselves. I found that really refreshing. He wasn’t apologetic about himself. He made 6 figures and drove/drives a 96 Saturn. As a programmer, his clothes are a bit nerdy but clean and neat. I liked that he could make his own choices about his money instead of appearing to spend a lot in every category. After saving and giving to charity, he’d use 10% of his bonus to buy himself electronics and he wasn’t apologetic about it which I thought was fair.
On our first date, he spent what I considered an obscene amount on symphony tickets; it definitely made me think he was pretty serious about trying this out. But most of our dates were in coffee shops and museums and I was equally if not more happy with these outings.
I guess my primary encouragement is to spend some time becoming comfortable with yourself and the decisions you are making.
Best wishes on your dating adventures.
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This is hilarious–I’ve been worried about the exact opposite. I know the topic of working together with your mate to get rich slowly has been covered in many different entries on this blog–some of which I have not yet read–but I found my own answer. Well, sort of. When I read something that really hits home on this blog, I send it to my wife. I’m finding that the more she reads from this blog, the more she seems to like it and, in the end, the more we think alike about frugality and getting rich slowly. Thanks, J.D., for helping improve the financial side of my marriage!!
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Sara A. and Jason (#25 and #27) touched on two issues: cleanliness and quality over quantity. I’d like to add a little to that.
After divorcing young a few years ago, I was dating again. The two men I dated seriously before marrying one of them were both frugal.
One had an apartment with not much in it, but it was all high quality. He had good quality clothes and shoes, but not a lot of it. Everything he wore flattered him, and his place was comfortable to be in. He kept his apartment and his car very clean, even with a very hairy dog companion.
The second had a large artist’s studio with not much in it. He made the most of the open space, and although he didn’t have thousands to spend furnishing it, he selected everything with an eye for aesthetics. Everything had its place, and the few doodads and art pieces he had were inexpensive finds (one even came from the trash!) but were definitely display-worthy.
The men I didn’t have another date with often had messy homes or cars.
Essentially, make your home a pleasure for someone else to be in, whenever you happen to get there.
THAT is a sure winner.
If you’re looking for more cheap date *tips*, Leo @ Zen Habits posted some last year: http://zenhabits.net/2007/03/cheap-but-great-dates/
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I think there’s a sexist misconception (expressed in comments and elsewhere) that, when it comes to relationships, women are, at worst, golddiggers and are, at best, looking for a bread-winner. This is NOT TRUE and you need to give more credit and thought when it comes to women you date.
When my boyfriend and I first started dating, he was still in college, while I was in grad school and had a full time job. It was no biggie – when we would eat out, we’d go dutch and sometimes I’d pay for him. When he started working full time, we’d go dutch, and sometimes he’d pay for me. However, he eventually became TOO extravagent – making full time money and BLOWING full time money, so that has become a real point of contention. He drives a beat up Corolla, which I don’t mind in the slightest. However, he uses it as a trash dumpster. So, in short: living frugally and sensibly and being tidy -> TURN ON. Buying tons of crap and keeping your living spaces a pigsty -> LOSER.
Offer to share in cooking and grocery shopping, find stuff outdoors to do, see what’s going on in your local arts scene (lots of free stuff there, usually), etc, etc, etc.
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Going out to eat for two people costs far more than staying in cooking a REALLY nice dinner and doing something together, whether it is watching a movie or doing something community rather than consumer oriented. A community activity like an art gallery monthly event or community theater show or botanical garden walk are all cheaper alternatives which ultimately seem more romantic and cheaper.
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My boyfriend was dumped by his last girlfriend for being frugal.
The thing is, there’s a big difference between being frugal and being cheap. You really can eat a much better meal for the money if you buy the ingredients and cook at home – and it’s so intimate and cozy.
Expensive restaurants and gifts do not impress me. They speak of someone who is trying too hard. Being yourself and being clear about your goals and what you’re accomplishing is way more important.
I think if the girl you’re dating needs to see an expensive car, nice apartment, and have an expensive date, then you’re dating the wrong kind of girl.
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When I first started dating Mr. Sam he lived in a house with 2 roommates (I owned my own home and lived alone) and he drove an older model Lexus (that was paid off and used to belong to his dad). The first few dates we met each other out (so we each drove, no car issues) I’m sure he paid all expenses the first few dates (drinks, dinner, we went to a hockey game [I know now the tickets were free, but didn't know then]). One of our first major expenses as a new couple was a trip to Disney World (we split the cost). Mr. Sam was saving for a house when we met and he explained that early on in the relationship and I very much respected that goal.
You need to be who you are otherwise it won’t work. If I dated a guy that showed up in a nice rental car the first month and then showed up later in his own car I would feel like I had been ‘lied’ to.
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I completely agree with most of the pps. One suggestion that I hadn’t heard was to join groups that you are truly interested in and get to know the women there. That way you get a lot more than a “first impression”. I met my DH doing daily rehearsals for community theatre. Not only did we get acquainted before we started dating, but I got character references via the other people who had known and liked him for years.
For the record, DH made a smidge more money than I did, but had bad credit, didn’t own a running car, and was digging out after a financially disasterous first marriage. However, he cooked me dinner and his first “big presents” to me for my 26th birthday were a nice-ish watch and tickets to Les Miz.
Lucky for him, I was looking for a nice guy who wasn’t a crazy spender and who could carry his own weight. I was making my own way, thank you very much.
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As a woman, I have to throw in my two cents that I always felt GUILTY if it wasn’t a ‘dutch’ date. I NEVER expected my way paid on a date. (Disclaimer: I married my high school sweetheart and didn’t really do the dating game) But I’m just saying I never expected a free ride. People have varied expectations…
The rest of the advice here is pretty spot-on in my opinion
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I was fortunate to find a girlfriend (and then a wife) who wasn’t overly interested in material things, which made being frugal a lot more acceptable to her. I would submit that finding someone with a compatible way of looking at the world of finances makes for a strong relationship. Then again, that could be said for any topic in building a strong relationship (career choices, parenting, religion, money, etc.).
As for first impressions, I haven’t noticed where being frugal has hurt in this regard. I still wear nice clothes at the office (I just try to buy them second-hand, through an online discounter, or pay cash when I do buy retail). I drive an old beater, but I’m not concerned with what people think of my vehicle. Granted, I might have been embarrassed to take my girlfriend out in an old beater (I had a nicer, leased car at the time), but if she had a problem with it we probably wouldn’t have lasted.
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Even from the start, the man I eventually married caught my eye by being NOT flashy – by dressing simply, living simply, and arranging his life simply… but being confident at the same time.
I’m not sure why, but from the start it didn’t occur to me to think of any of it (beat up old car included) as indicating he was poor or that there was a problem – somehow, from the first day I met him, it was clear his life was purposeful. The first time we talked about the fact we both lived much below our means and saved most of our income it was a surprise to neither of us.
The calm purposefulness – that was and is the sexiest part.
I wouldn’t underestimate the degree to women actually considering a serious relationship can recognize and respect conscious, purposeful decisions on your part.
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Guys actually have it pretty easy. There are lots of frugal options that girls are okay with:
-‘Classic’ old pickup truck or car that is clean inside
- Good grooming counts more than fancy clothes. This includes maintenance: ironing shirts and polishing shoes matters.
- Staying fit also helps. If you’re in good shape you can make ‘ordinary’ clothes look good.
- Roommates in a well maintained house is okay with many ladies
If you have it together she’s not going to notice how much money you’re spending. Just don’t make it too obvious: no coupons for dinner and don’t ever bring money up while on a date. Suggesting an early movie followed by a picnic is different than reworking your plans so you can go see the matinee followed by the early bird special + coupon at a restaurant.
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I said it in the other post, I’ll repeat it again: Find a local Meetup group that discusses PF. Go to meetings. Wear an outfit that you are comfortable *and* sexy in. Smile a lot. Be ready with a business card with your email and website. Bike home on your bright orange bike and start checking your voicemail.
I’ve had several dates with women grow out of my PF groups.
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I think (and pray!) it comes down to creativity. I really enjoyed reading Kay’s story (comment #20) about the two men she dated.
As a single 24 year old male, very much in a financial pickle, I’m hoping that my creativity, grooming, and simple lifestyle will attract the type of women I want to marry.
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RE: Shauna
I bought my car with cash, my retirement goal is to build a log home on some property I have in northern Maine for summer, live here in Florida during the winter, and my portfolio is in the process of making that a possibility.
Just my 26 year old male reply
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Just to add to the point of free or low-cost date ideas – DON’T tell your date that the idea came up because it was free or low-cost. Just claim that it seems like a fun thing to do. For example, one of my early dates with my boyfriend was an hour walking around an art museum (I didn’t realize until afterwards that it was on a free night) and then he suggested that we stroll home since it was such a nice night. I just thought that he was enjoying my company and conversation. I felt flattered and attended to and he didn’t have to spend money.
Seems to me that when you genuinely have something in common with a person, the conversation is the important part of the date – and that you can do sitting on a bench in the park or over coffee as well as you can do it somewhere pricey.
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