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In the past, I’ve shared the story of the worst job I ever had. In a lot of ways, it felt like I was part of a pyramid scheme or multi-level marketing operation. I’ve been approached to participate in similar operations since then: once by my veterinarian (?!?) and once by a stranger in a book store. Sometimes you cannot tell a scam is a scam until you see it up close, and then the sunk-cost fallacy will sometimes force you to make a poor choice. GRS reader Bozemblem recently sent me this story of his close encounter with a “business opportunity” that turned out to be a scam.
I’ve been reading Get Rich Slowly for about a year now, and I can definitely relate when you talk about your struggles and triumphs with money. Here’s an experience I recently had.
I currently work and live in one of the most expensive parts of the United States. I’m going to school part-time to get my MS in Computer Science. School is very expensive, even with my employer paying a great deal of the tuition. On top of that I’m getting married next year and I have a tiny amount of credit card debt. I do a very good job of budgeting my money; I follow it quite closely and it won’t be long before I’ve rid myself of the debt. However, as you might be able to tell, money is a bit of a concern and so I’m always looking for way to either decrease my spending (which I think I’ve done a good job of so far without going crazy) or increase my income (which is much harder to do, and it is my attempt to do so which is why I’m writing you).
Business opportunity
The other night I was in the grocery store buying some items for my sick fiancee. Unfortunately, there was only one cashier on duty and I was one of an unusually large number of customers that night. As I waited in line, a nice gentleman in line behind me struck up a conversation. I spent some time talking to him and eventually we got around to talking about what we did for a living, and I mentioned that I am a software engineer. Upon hearing that, he got pretty excited and told me that he was a small business owner in need of someone with my skill set. Seeing this as an opportunity to possible earn some extra money, we exchanged number and he promised to call me the next week to talk about opportunities for some part-time work with his company.
Later that next week he called me, and we set up a time to meet. He told me to meet him at a hotel the next week; he and some of his fellow small business owners were part of a larger corporation, and he presented this to me as an opportunity to network and meet other people who may be interested in my skills. Cautiously optimistic, I agreed.
Well tonight I met this individual and had quite the experience. It slowly started to come together for me, and the saddest part about it is that those were three hours that I will never get back. Turns out, it was just one large pyramid scheme, and it didn’t matter if I was a software engineer or not.
Pyramid scheme
Here’s how the operation works: you join as an “apprentice” of another member, and you maximize your profits by getting other people to become your “apprentice”. It was disguised as an “e-commerce” (sorry for the abuse of quotation marks) operation; basically you bought your home goods from this one organization instead of a place like Wal-Mart. Everyone else you got to sign up and buy those same goods from that organization would gain you some money. And when they got people to sign up, then you would get a cut of the profits as well. As soon as I had an opportunity, I left, feeling disgusted and embarrassed.
I however, was the only one. Of the other “candidates” in the room, only I left. Everyone else seemed excited. It’s not hard to see how. The speaker was very compelling; very funny and personable. He spoke of living a “lifestyle” as opposed to a life (my first red flag). Then he talked about stuff like “how would you feel if you could drive a different car…every day of the week!” He then had us list out which 7 cars we wanted. Actually, we listed out 6. Aston Martins, Rolls-Royces, etc… The 7th car he picked. And it was the car he drove, and he implied that it was through this program that he was able to afford it. I wish I could have left right then, but I was sitting near the front and although I hated myself for being there, I couldn’t bear to be rude either.
Your readers should be aware of these operations! They may sound good, and the money may be real, but it’s all top-heavy. The ones at the bottom (ie. YOU) won’t be making all that money, but you’ll help someone else do it! Beware of the charismatic speaker; this guy was really good; going so far as to say “I don’t even care if you join or not”. Implying, of course, that he’s doing us a favor, despite the fact that he wouldn’t have any money if no one signed up.
But that one statement was so powerful, and I could tell my fellow attendees were getting sucked in. That one statement created such a sense of urgency and yet indifference on his part. He was basically saying that he didn’t need us, that he can find more people, the “right” people. And he kept talking about us being “candidates”, and he spoke often of a selection process. I’m not privy to such information, but if I had to guess, I would say that we were all going to be selected.
Get rich quick!
That and numerous other methods were employed to give us a sense of opportunity, and give us a taste of the rich lifestyle. He was damn good at his job, and I don’t doubt that he’s made plenty of money off of his considerable talents. Oh, and don’t forget the $200 registration fee, the $150 insurance costs, and the undisclosed costs of the training materials. By the way, I only got those figures by pressing my “sponsor” until he finally relented.
It’s easy to see how people can get sucked in. Everyone else was just like me; needed a little extra cash, pressed for time and anxious to explore any opportunity, we were rip for picking. I thank goodness that my dad instilled in me a sense of skepticism, else I may have ended up with the rest of them.
Unfortunately, the road to riches isn’t that easy. It’s simple, but it isn’t quick and painless. You just gotta spend less than you earn (by prioritization and reducing the number of unnecessary “wants”), save as much as you can, diversify your investments, and constantly improve the most critical investment, yourself (through taking on a variety of tasks at your job, even if they’re outside of your typical skillset and by continuing your education). Invest in index funds, open a high-yield savings account, contribute at least enough to your 401(k) to max out your company’s match and fund your IRA; doing so will provide plenty of wealth going forward, just do the math!
A learning experience
There is one positive that came out of my experience with the pyramid scheme. The speaker preached constantly about how his program is different than a typical job because it gave you “freedom”. That’s not really true, it just transfers your obligations, and it provides you with a significant amount of risk if you are one of those who chose to do that type of thing full time (and there are those people).
The bright side for me was that I realized how much I hated the lack of freedom that working in a traditional career offers. And I’ve always had an idea for a real small business (as opposed to the scheme’s definition of a small business) that I’ve always wanted to open, and I’m going to start working towards that goal. I’ve been inspired to work to free myself from work, and to get to the point where I won’t be susceptible to schemes like the one I got sucked into tonight. Perhaps not the motivation these guys were looking for, but that’s what I got out of it!
Bozemblem’s experience is similar to several I’ve had in my own life. I believe he’s right: programs like this can provide income and success to those at the top, or to those who have special luck or motivation. But for most people, they’re actually a net loss. Do you have experience with pyramid schemes or multi-level marketing? Was this experience positive or negative? What advice do you have for others who might be considering this as a way to make money? Checkout line photo by szlea. Conference photo by Jeffrey Beall.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:09 am
I’d be most upset about those 3 hours I’d never get back, too, but its happened to all of us. Just be glad you didn’t give in to the scheme and time is all you lost. Just chalk this up to a learning experience and I’d guess you’ll never be trapped into giving your time again. We’ve all been there. Good article as I’m aware some people might need this information. Sometimes “too good to be true” seems like a great thing.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:17 am
We have just had a major pyramid scheme collapse here in Finland, called (variably) Win Club and Win-Capita. Its purported businesss was forex trading, promising annual profits of up to 400% (!).
Predictably enough, it was a total scam. About ten thousand people got suckered, though, with total losses approaching 100 million euros (about 150 million dollars); quite a lot in a country of five million people.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t pyramid schemes illegal? If so, did this scam qualify? Thanks.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:22 am
I nearly fell for this… twice.
The first time, I was looking for a summer job and came across a company that (I discovered) was essentially door-to-door knife-set sales. The only reason I got out of it was that I couldn’t come in for the training because it was a religious holiday, spent the next few days contemplating the “opportunity” before me, and decided I’d rather be unemployed. (I did, in the end, find another job.)
The second time, a friend of mine wanted me to come check out a new opportunity he’d discovered, essentially an MLM personal finance service organization. I had wised up by then, saw through the scheme, and told my friend what I thought. He decided to stay on, however, and I suspect he probably would have made money on it (he’s one of those rare, ambitious, personable types), but eventually was forced to leave for unrelated reasons.
As for me, I’ll happily say “no thank you” for now.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
There’s a very fine line, of course, and sometimes it’s difficult to say “this company is a scam, this one is not”.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Yeah I did the knife thing out of college too. Actually I was prescient enough to figure out it was a scam during “training”. I don’t remember if it was day one or two, but at some point they started talking about your required initial investment in a knife set, with a scale on how much you spend equaling how much you cared about the job. When they asked me how large a demonstration model they could put me down for, I laughed and walked out.
I still get a little annoyed thinking about the experience. I lost quite a bit of time there before walking. In addition, I put myself in a supplicant role during the “interview” process. “Please please please let me be a part of your scam!”
Ah well, it was many years ago. Still don’t understand how it’s legal, but they seem to do well for themselves.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:16 am
JD,
No comment about the guest post - just happy that the site is back to working normally!!! Did you find out what the deal was?
May 11th, 2008 at 10:21 am
I had someone pull the bait and switch on me too. They even followed me out to my car — despite my protests as a single woman — and forced a package of Amway samples into the car. I couldn’t believe it. Then they phoned me up and said that I’d have to give them back, because it would be stealing to keep it. So the creepy scam artist had to come to my home. I made sure I had two other people there — and I just left the stuff on the porch.
Ick.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:47 am
The problem with the site was the Dell ad from FeedBurner. Something about it didn’t “play nice” with my site. I notice that other sites are running it without a problem, so I can’t blame the ad entirely. There’s some sort of bad synnergy there. I just pulled the ad, and things work fine.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:25 am
I can deeply sympathize with this writer. I, too, have been approached MANY times as I work in the service industry and am extremely friendly. I have been befriended and then dumped due to not joining (this instance was so painful because I really loved the friendship)that it has made me literally hate anyone even starting one of these conversations. I refuse to take part at any time once the conversation turns to this. We even had a family “befriend” us at DISNEY WORLD (not the painful experience, that guy spent 2 months working up to asking me to join his “group”) we spent the day enjoying this family only to realize at dinner that it wasn’t our super cool family that drew them to us they viewed us as potential income - HOW SICK IS THAT! I have nothing but pity for people who earn a living that way, turning off people around them who could possibly be a real friend…viewing people and friends as income rather than the wonderful person that they are. YUK!
May 11th, 2008 at 11:50 am
This happened to me once as well back when I was 18 and fresh out of high school. I was at Office Depot looking around when another customer struck up a conversation by asking me what I thought about a piece of software. He then asked if I worked with computers and when I said yes he seemed delighted and implied that I might be able to be of assistance to him and some friends who were working on an internet business. He asked for my card and said he would give me a call. The next day he called up and said they were getting together for a meeting and asked if I would stop by. When the address was for a hotel I started to get skeptical. When I got there I knew something wasn’t right but at the time wasn’t aware it was an MLM scheme. After the whole spiel about getting rich and crap, my “sponsor” invited me to Pizza Hut for a bite to eat. By that time I realized I had wasted the past three hours of my life, but thought maybe I could at least get some free pizza out of it….. I was quite shocked once we got there and had to come up with $3.99 for my own pizza. I mean, when they deceive you, take up your time, and invite you there because THEY WANT something from YOU, you’d at least think they could cover your pizza. I guess they spent all their money on their invisible fancy cars. Luckily my parents had wisdom from experience to warn me away from getting into it.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I’m actually going to take the positive on this one. I’ve been doing MLM for about 2 years. I have a very well paying job, but it’s not something I want to do for the rest of my life. I saw MLM initially as an opportunity to make some extra money so I could enter the real estate game.
The MLM industry as a whole has an awful reputation, and rightly so. It’s unfortunate that people prey on the hopes and dreams of others. I’ve seen it myself. There are a lot of lies, and there are a lot of scams.
That being said, a MLM “can” be run as a legitimate business, but I’ll agree that most of them aren’t. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time and money to develop ways of doing it that work for me. I don’t bother my friends and family. And I really do have a selection/application process. I don’t “hype” people up just to get them to join. It’s honestly counterproductive and not worth my time to continually convince someone of the “great opportunity” that they have. I don’t have meetings in my living room, and I don’t bother people in the checkout line at the grocery store. I DO tell people that is NOT easy, and that it IS a lot of work.
I’ve definitely had my ups and downs, but as a whole I would say that I’ve had a positive experience. But you do need to sift through the lies to figure out how to really make it work for you. MLM is a marketing and leadership business run by people that have no idea how to market or to be a leader.
But, if you have the desire to learn and are willing to make the monetary and time investment required, AND find the right fit for you, then you can be successful.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
About 12 years ago, I was living near my parents, and they moved out of state. A couple from their church called me up to ‘check in on me’ when my parents moved, and invited me to lunch, etc. I really did think they were just trying to be kind to the daughter of their former church members, but no — no sooner were the plates cleared but they started in on trying to get me into their Amway-like business (it wasn’t Amway, but was very, very like). They gave me a bag of little samples to try - everything from chewing gum to face cream.
I realized the ‘business’ for what it was, and opted out, politely. And then they demanded, very coldly, that I give the little bag of samples back to them. And they never spoke to me again, once I dropped off the unused samples.
More recently, my neighbor invited me to a ‘green’ party - I was given to understand that it was a Tupperware party or a candle party — someone would come in and tell you about their product, and you’d buy something, and that was that. Unfortunately, it was for Melalueca — we couldn’t buy anything unless we joined up and started recruiting others. Sheesh.
May 11th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
That’s an old joke: A guy sees an ad in a local newspaper, “Make $1000s at home in your spare time! Send $5 for complete details!” So he sends in his $5.
A few days later, he gets a photocopied brochure in the mail. It reads, “Step #1: Take out ads in local newspapers…”
Many of us dream of starting our business, but whether or not we ever try it, most of us wind up working for someone else. Think about that before risking your time and money.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I’m not big on MLM. We’ve been approached by friends to join Amway (and others). It is pretty easy to see through the hype, especially when you see how little money they really make. Hmmm…If you make next to nothing, why should I join?
My wife did well in Mary K a decade or so ago. She made some side money, but we quickly realized it was just a sales job. For the time and effort it took, you can make more elsewhere without alienating your friends.
We also know a couple that are serial MLM junkies. Both are smart and capable. They are just looking for immediate gratification. Instead of spending their time and energy building a real business, they fall for the next scam. The latest cost them their savings and put them almost six figures in debt.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
I had the same thing happen to me. A guy at IKEA said I looked familiar to him and we got to talking about where I’m from and as it happens he is looking for new people for his business. I ended up going to his house and have him and his wife use all the sales lines in the book. Fortunately for me I’m a psych major and all those tricks didn’t work. Beware of people coming to you unsolicited. No serious employer looks for employees in the mall.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I applaud this blog, i think people just sharing their stories can help naive people like myself from falling into what to others know is an obvious MLM scam.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I did scAmway for a while in college. I was recently unemployed and living on student loans and my sponsor insisted that I sign up for their tape series which came out once a week. I found out later that tape sales is where the real money is in this MLM scheme.
I now just laugh at people who try to recruit me and when they say it is not the same old Amway, I say “sure, sure of course”.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
I ended a three-year relationship with my boyfriend when he got sucked into Amway. He was buying all sorts of overpriced, mediocre products and going to weekend conventions that sounded downright creepy. Each day, they would listen to motivational speakers for 7 or more hours at a stretch, with cheerleading and chants like “Go Diamond!” or some similar nonsense. He had an answer for every objection I had, as if he were reciting from a memorized script. It freaked the heck out of me, and I couldn’t handle the radical change in his personality once Amway got a hold of him.
May 11th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I fell for a scam called 12 Daily Pro a few years ago. I actually probably knew that it was a scam - many of the questions on their forum were about if it was a scam, so the seed of that idea was definitely planted in my head. But so many people had proof of payment! The way it worked was you would send them money through eGold or StormPay (both hard to deal with, so that should have been a tip too), and every day for 12 days you could earn 12% on your payment, provided you did 12 minutes of auto-surfing, so you really get 144% of your investment after the 12 days. It was incredibly easy, and it was set up more to seem like that was the main part of the program, and if you happened to refer people, you could make more. I actually did this with only a $120 initial investment for about 4 months, and made a good deal of money on it. Finally, I decided to go against my better judgement and put another $500 of new money (rather than reinvesting based on my initial $120 + returns). That week, they shut down. I don’t care that much about losing the returns I had made through their program, it bothers me that I stupidly lost $500. The reason I had only put $120 up front was that I felt that was an amount that if I lost it all, it would be ok. I should stick to my guns in the future.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
you said “as soon as you had an opportunity” you left. why wasn’t it 5 minutes in, or were you just being polite? i hesitate to think i would have stayed 5 hours!!!!
i had a friend who had a similar experience and it ended up being a door-to-door sales job!
people will try anything when they know their “ideas” stink.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Yeah, I actually just went through a similar experience. Like you, I’m in a position where I’m working on my debt and being careful about money, but looking for ways to increase my income.
I work a second job part-time at a bookstore and I ran into a guy there that I recognized from college. After some brief conversation he talked about how his his student loans were already paid off and bragged about how much money he was making. I was immediately skeptical, but I exchanged contact information with him anyway.
The meeting we had a week later only confirmed my suspicions. A quick Google search reveals how many lawsuits the company had been involved in. I was embarrassed and angry, as well, but at least he only wasted 45 minutes of my time (as opposed to 3 hours!? Hot damn!) before I got out of it, which itself was still 44 minutes too long.
I think the worst part about it for me was that I found out that a good friend of mine who I lost contact with when I graduated was involved with his “company”. I hate to know that she’s wasting her time with this when it’s taking away time she could spend with her young daughter.
May 11th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
I too have been tricked to going to one of these seminars and actually signed up. They are very convincing, and I was in college trying to make some side money. One of my friends was just so excited about it and she’s a smart engineer herself, so I believed in it. Luckily, I got out before I lost too much money. My friend still participates but only makes about $100-200/month, hardly worth the time and feeling of guilt by begging all your friends and family to waste money.
No more pyramid schemes for me. I will just focus on doing what I love to do and not focusing just on money but also happiness (in which money isn’t really required).
May 11th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
About two years ago when I moved to Orlando I took a job as an event planner and I was basically someone who rented out the hotel space and projectors and stuff for this type of thing. A friend of mine had got me the job and when I first started I felt kinda dirty about it. But I checked into it and all the stuff that we helped out (we were like a promotion service for speakers kind of like this guy - we did all the set up and he toured the country. It was a big company with about 7 different “programs” that we did the promotion for) and they were all on the up and up. Nothing illegal, nothing pyramid - but since a lot of the tag lines were of the “lifestyle” type, it felt like it was.
Anyway, what finally made me feel okay about working there was that the programs that we sponsored really could make you rich REALLY fast - the one thing that they forgot to mention was that IN ORDER TO MAKE IT WORK YOU HAD TO WORK YOU A$$ OFF!! Sure you would “be your own boss” but that meant you were also your whole work crew! There were people who made millions at the conferences that we put together once a year, but they worked like 7 days a week and like 80 hours a week! If you found a regular job that paid half way decent and worked that much you would have a ton of cash too!
Here are the typical programs that we did that have the feel of a get-rich, but are really more of a work-your-butt-off-after-you-buy-our-expensive-instructions-and-start-up:
*Note - these are people who BOUGHT the program and actually did all the work to make it work. The crazy 80 hour a week people.
1) By far the people who made the most money were people who did debt buying. You find some person or business who has someone who owes them money. Like if you owe Bob $100 and Bob REALLY needs that money now, I say - “Okay, I’ll pay Bob right now for you, but instead of the 5% interest you were going to pay him - you have to pay me 10%.” And then the real work came in when you had to a) find where to get the pay off money to start with and B) find a bank to buy the debt from you so you don’t have to wait to get your 5%. Tons of money to be made, super super hard to do and get started.
2) Stock trading software. Yes, you can make tons and tons of money trading stock. But you need the money to invest in the first place, spend hours pouring over the info the software gives you every day, and PRAY for no slips in the market.
3) Buying and flipping real estate. Everyone knows how this one works these days. Although the current market really put a dent in that one…
4) Drop shipping on ebay or affiliate selling. You basically work as a store front for a supplier. Kinda think of yourself as an outlet store. How many times have you clicked on a small web sites “buy now” button and ended up at a bigger store? The big store actually sells the item and the little web site gets like 3% of the commission or something like that. Not a bad way to go if you have good traffic on your site - but the ebay route takes a lot of work, and you need to have things that people actually want to buy!
Those were the four biggies that we worked for and they made millions of dollars every year just selling the software, instructions on how to get started, and a super awesome, sell an eskimo ice type of personality.
It wasn’t illegal - but it was kinda like me telling you if you give me $3000 (about the average start up cost) I can tell you how to become a millionaire. Then after the check clears I give you the name of a good medical/law school that you can go to.
May 11th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Isn’t Quixtar based on a pyramid scheme? I have a few people that tried to get me to join that program.
May 11th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Carrie,
Your story sounds so familiar.My parents were in Amway for four or five years during my childhood, and I get sick to my stomach any time I hear someone’s story (positive or negative) about MLM/pyramids. They did the tapes, the bi-weekly “open” meetings, the monthly seminars and the annual national conferences. I swear they spent 5x more money on motivational materials than they made through Amway.
Recently, Amway (now Quixtar - we were there for the switch), got in TONS of trouble because one of the huge Diamonds came out and said that the majority of the money that the multi-millionaires in Amway made actually came from the motivational tapes and conferences, NOT the products and the recruits. It was a huge split, and I’m pretty sure several lawsuits came from it.
Amway/Quixtar is not a business, it’s a cult.
May 11th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Chris, I think your final assessment “cult” reflects a lot of what I’ve seen from reading about Amway/Quixtar online.
There’s a whole mentality and culture that one must buy into. One isn’t an individual business owner at all…because one’s success is wholly dependent on working within the system. And, as you say, the tapes bring in a lot of money.
Also, many report having been led to believe that they were doing it wrong when they didn’t get rich despite hard work (40-hour weeks on top of 40 hour regular jobs before they quit the regular ones). Because they thought everyone else was succeeding when everyone else was trying to look successful…because they also felt like losers. So many people with the same problem and all of them thinking they’re alone.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Right on! A good friend’s father suckered me into my wasted evening…. “Golden Products”, which became (I believe) Amway.. “Can’t tell you anything about it. You just have to come and listen and see if it’s something you are interested in.. ” Never again!
Thx jegan
May 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
I was sucker 18 years ago. Just out of college. A friend of mine mentioned an opportunity to sell water and air filters. NSA was the MLM company. I probably spent $500 on the products, and couldn’t even get my father to buy one! Obviously, sales was not my future.
The time wasted at the sales pitch wasn’t an issue then. But that $500 was more than I had at the time.
May 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
just like about everyone else I have been recruited by some of these companies. My most recent one was by Primerica - basically a financial services MLM. I wrote a post about it because I was so torn in my decision making process since it really seemed to helping people - but it was still MLM.
It is amazing the varying opinions that people have about MLMs. It seems that you either love them or hate them.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
oh god, this happened to me in the 80s just out of high school. I was looking at books in the business section of this bookstore and this guy starts chatting me up and asks what I’m looking for and invites me to what ended up being an Amway (now Quixtar) pitch at this house where the only furniture in it was folding chairs, which should have been my first clue. Then I kind of lost a friend over her involvement with this MLM called MarketAmerica. We still email once in awhile but I really thought she was smarter than that. Even the trainer I hired last year was pushing MLM Advocare supplements too hard for my taste so I fired him after a month. these scams are pervasive and the scammers are slick and persuasive. “your own business” is a crock; you aren’t a business, you’re a revenue stream for the guy who sucked you in.
Amway: be your own best customer! sad that these kinds of companies are still able to operate. Amway has pretty deep political roots and throw money at politicians so they’re probably safe.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Thank you for posting this! I was between jobs after college and down to my last few dollars when I was approached by an old college friend to join his MLM scam. He heard I was without a job and wanted to ‘help me out’. Ironically enough, it was for a pyramid scheme to sell of all things.. investment vehicles ala insurance and 401K. Some of them seemed legit, some not.
I checked out the ‘monthly meeting’ of associates and ran smack dab into the charismatic speaker, group chants, $1000 entry fee (with little to no training) and of course the personal testimonies of people that ‘made it’. Smelled fishy and I chose against it.
The worst part about this experience is that my old college buddy (and now ex-friend) who was wrapped up in this MLM DROPPED MY NAME MULTIPLE TIMES to prospective clients and even referred to me as his old college roommate to help induce trust from clients. Funny, we went drinking a couple times and now I magically became his former college roommate. He smeared my good name to sell shoddy insurance and sign up apprentices. Sickening!!
May 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I hate MLM schemes. My husband was a Vector (Cutco manager) for a summer and it was a disaster.
On the other hand, though, I do buy Mary Kay and Avon products occasionally. I feel like make-up is one area where it is good to make personal sales. I will never sell it, but I really like the products.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
There are many legitimate direct selling/network marketing companies out there such as Mary Kay, Avon, Tupperware, Pampered Chef, Discovery Toys, etc. In fact, Warren Buffet has recently bought Pampered Chef. Now if the richest man in the US bought a network marketing company, there must be something to this. There are more millionaires made in the network marketing industry than in any other industry. I personally have bought products from all of these companies. Even in regards to Amway, the FTC challenged it in the 70s charging that it was an illegal pyramid scheme. Amway successfully prevailed in this challenge proving that it was perfectly legal. From that point forward, networking marketing really took off and is a legitimate business model. Although some tactics used by a minority of distributors can be unsavory, the vast majority are honest, hard-working people who want to improve their financial situations and hope that their friends and family will join them in the journey.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
To all of you that have had negative experiences with this industry:
Just because you personally have had one bad experience with a particular individual does not give you the right to say that all Direct Selling/MLM/Network Marketing companies or individuals are the same way. For example, I wouldn’t say that all cops are “pigs” and immoral just because of a particular run down with one cop, right?
Since starting up in a network marketing company a little under two years ago towards the end of graduate school I have made over $100k outside of my job income only working my business part-time. I am not one of those “guys at the top” nor do I make all my money off the tools (I have made zero off tools personally — I have no problem with somebody making money off of tools, as long as they are enabling people to make money themselves).
Either way, I just wanted to add my personal experience that networking marketing is not as bad as everyone on here makes it to be. Yes, there are some idiots out there that do run scams, but for the majority it is a great opportunity for people to earn extra money.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
By the way, 12DailyPro is an autosurf and NOT an MLM/network marketing company. The autosurfs and hyip’s are illegal pyramid schemes and most people lose their money. The SEC is aggressively shutting these programs down. They promise ridiculous returns on money that you “invest” in advertising packs. There’s no product involved whatsoever. They are purely internet-based, so you would never meet anyone.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Justin: Thanks for the straw man, you definitely sound like the MLM type.
Here’s the breakdown: For many of us, it’s not just one experience but many with the industry(not company X) that creates our views. Secondly, for those who have had a single experience, how violating does it have to be before we have the “right” to speak on their ills? Third, you don’t have to say all cops are pigs because of one bad experience, you say, “every experience I’ve had with the police has been unpleasant”. Or, relevant to this discussion, every experience many of us have had with MLMs have been wasteful, insulting, and predatory. Check your morals at the door and sell all the snake oil you want, but don’t be too sad when you’re called out on it.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:14 am
If Amway is so big and great, then how come they are not more popular. i went to one of their meetings once, it was creepy and looked like some mind control setup to me. I am not saying its illegal, all I am saying that its creepy and weird….
May 12th, 2008 at 2:44 am
@ Todd @ WB:
“you said “as soon as you had an opportunity” you left. why wasn’t it 5 minutes in, or were you just being polite? i hesitate to think i would have stayed 5 hours!!!!”
Yes, he was being polite. That’s one of the biggest ways MLM sleazeballs take advantage of good people; they make you seem like you’re rude if you walk out.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Wow, good for you for walking out. I sometimes want to tell people who believe these things that there is a reason we’re all not walking around rich right now!
May 12th, 2008 at 4:54 am
I once had a stranger called who said my friend “so and so” gave her my name and said I might be willing to help a young lady get credit for a scholarship. The more people she showed these kitchen items to, the more points she’d get for this scholarship opportunity.
If she hadn’t mentioned my friend’s name, I never would’ve done it. The girl comes over, and ends up bringing a suitcase full of Cutco cutlery. In the interest of being nice, I let her in and let her do her spiel.
It took about 45 minutes before she got to the actual selling part..very clever trying to establish a relationship with me first. I guess she didn’t notice my butcher block set of Henckel handcrafted knives either…or chose to ignore them. I excused myself for a minute, ran over to the computer in another room and checked eBay. The kitchen shears I liked were 1/3 of the price on eBay…well, at least they held up their value more than most items.
After I declined to purchase from her, everything quickly went downhill and her demeanor changed to something I can only describe as loathing. Off she went in a huff, and I sat down and bought a pair on eBay..and I must admit, to this day, they are the best shears I ever had.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:06 am
I, too, just had a run-in of the Cutco kind. I actually was duped into spending over $100 on stuff I really did not need. The person who came over originally lied and said they just wanted me to critique their selling presentation which was really just a means to get inside my house. This kind of sleazy behavior to make a buck just makes me sick. The Cutco presentation represents the LAST TIME I will ever entertain any kind of MLM garbage “presentation” because, right before that, family members I hadn’t seen in YEARS duped me into joining Xango (the “miracle” juice) and I lost over $300 on buying juice with that one.
I already have a People Pleaser Complex as a result of my rough childhood and so I have always been an easy target. I would really like to get that PPC under control before I leave this earth because it drives me crazy.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:11 am
One summer in college I went to one of the infamous ‘knife sales’ meetings because I really wanted to avoid another stint working fast food. (I was naive.) As I started to walk out, the sales guy shot me daggers; I was pleasantly surprised that almost every person in the room followed me.
Some of them told me that they had felt weird about the situation, found themselves hoping that when it came to the ‘interview’ portion of the meeting that they wouldn’t be chosen, but also felt strangely compelled to stay.
I think they make good use of (exploit?) people’s habitual politeness and the cognitive dissonance experience that “I wouldn’t be sitting here if this were truly a load of crap” etc.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:14 am
My last year in college, I lived with a couple that was sucked in to Quixtar.
They bought in to the concept 100%. Traveled all over the country to go to regional meetings. Easily put in about 30 hours a week in addition to their regular (full-time) jobs. They bought “training materials” in the form of cassette tapes (new ones every week IIRC) and books.
What did they get in return? A few hundred dollars at best. And that’s before the expenses of gas, training materials, and meeting costs. Their net was very, very negative. (Interestingly, they were actively discouraged from tracking this information by their sponsors).
The only positive thing I can say is that they’ve built up some really strong cold-calling and people skills.
(As an aside, I know a fair number of people with seven digit net worth and even one venture capitalist who has nine digits to his name. None of these folks made their money through an MLM.)
May 12th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Bozemblem, I love you.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:16 am
So what do folks know about Prepaid Legal? I’ve got a brother-in-law who falls for every scheme that comes down the road over the years and is ALWAYS trying to sell us something or recruit us for something. From green mossy herbal junk to oxy whatever, he’s sold it all thinking he’d found the money pit. It’s too bad because he’s otherwise OK, but we all avoid him because every conversation turns into a sales pitch. His latest obsession is Prepaid Legal. I can’t find what I expect to find (negatives and warnings) by web surfing. But he’s pulling my 81 year old mother into it and she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings. Should we step in or keep quiet?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:18 am
I’m from the hometown of Amway/Quickstar and had the opportunity to work for the COMPANY one summer as an intern in public relations so I got to write all of the stuff the “distributors” used to sell/defend their way of working. I liked that job b/c it paid really good over $10/hour. However, I remember there being big talk about taking away the employee store where they sold damaged products at deep discounts (i.e. the label was off on the bottle) b/c surprise, surprise none of the employees wanted anything to do with the sales side of the business. My conclusion at the end of the summer I like Amway products but not enough to have to put up with the MLM system. I’ve run into “distributors” since then and have explained my stance but they just don’t get it why I want nothing to do with the selling side. Why don’t I want to get rich working for myself, maybe b/c I feel I can get rich fasted the old fashion way by living on less than I make.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am
“There are more millionaires made in the network marketing industry than in any other industry.”
The MLM industry never made more millionaires than other industries, and it makes even fewer now because markets are saturated.
“But, if you have the desire to learn and are willing to make the monetary and time investment required, AND find the right fit for you, then you can be successful.”
This is true, but it is even more true of lemonade stands, since the average lemonade stand turns a profit and the average MLM-er loses money. Smart, friendly, diligent people will do well in everything, and they’ll do even better away from MLM. And if unsuccessful network marketers didn’t have “the right fit”, well, that is because all the “right fits” were snapped up years ago by the top of the pyramid.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:56 am
I have been involved in three separate MLM operations: Quixtar, Pre-Paid Legal and Melaleuca. You immediately get pressure to become a reseller and once you do, you realize you’re “supposed” to go to all the meetings and seminars. But, since we own our own legitimate IT consulting business and have two young children we don’t have time to do the meetings–thank goodness! And, in my opinion, the scam part is that the money is made in the seminars, books, tapes, etc. that the unwitting participants buy or in getting people to agree to be resellers and pay more money rather than just buying products. However, for each of these companies, I’ve liked some of their specific products and services but in the case of Quixtar and Melaleuca the majority of products are overpriced and available elsewhere. I love the Quixtar energy drinks and the Melaleuca “Melgel” but it’s so easy to buy reasonably priced tea tree oil ointment at the health food store instead of through Melaleuca, for example. The best one has been Pre-Paid Legal. We’ve had some contracts reviewed, were able to collect some money owed to us and plan to use the law firm for more contract review and collection letters. That is definitely money well spent since independent lawyers/law firms would charge so much more for what we’ve needed. But, it does depend too, on the rep. I’ve met the “slimy” ones but I’ve met a few decent ones too. Sadly, I’ve decided to avoid one particular friend of mine because she has become a Melaleuca rep and then pressured me to do this and that–no thanks! I’m hoping she’ll return to her senses soon.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I have been involved with two different MLM companies. Both of them were services so there wasn’t any inventory to purchase. In my opinion, they are both reputable companies (one of the NYSE so at least financially reputable). I did find out that neither company was for my wife and I. I felt extremely uncomfortable selling to family and friends and thus discontinued “educating” people on the products.
MLM companies do get a bad rap, but it’s not as if there isn’t a reason for the bad reputation. In my opinion, there are a few companies that have had questionable selling techniques and questionable products, but there are also some MLM companies that are legitimate. There are a few things to take into consideration when deciding on a MLM company:
1. Are you interested in selling to your friends and family? A lot of them say you are not selling, you are educating or informing, but let’s call it what it is, sales.
2. What sort of turnover rate does the company have for it’s “distributors”?
3. Do you have to purchase inventory?
4. What are the startup costs? What are the monthly costs?
5. Are sales increasing or decreasing?
6. Are you providing a product or a service and what other competition is currently out there?
7. A lot of MLM companies sell vitamins and such. Where is the scientific proof that these vitamins provide benefits? Let’s see the facts! Let’s see the medical studies!
I have a few friends that have done VERY well with MLM and that is all they do. In the end, I found out it was not for me. I tried two MLM companies based on the criteria set above. There was only a small amount of money for entry (I’m cheap). One of the companies provided a service that was cheaper than the established companies. The only downside is that there was competition. The other MLM service company provided a service that was not readily available to the public and I actually use the service on a regular basis and has served me well.
That’s my 2 cents!
Cheers!
May 12th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I work in a hotel bar and after what I can only assume had been a long, hard-sell performance in one of our conference rooms, the scammers brought their prospective clients down to the bar. In an effort to impress the suckers, the leaders were literally throwing money over the bar at me. 4 shots cost $16 bucks, so he tipped me $20, 10 drinks for all his “friends” is $50, here’s a $50 tip as well.
By the end of my normally sleepy Tuesday night shift, I had made over $600… my average on a Tuesday being about $75. It almost made me uncomfortable to take his money because I could see that he was trying to show off, and I had a feeling this kid didn’t really have the money to spend.
I don’t know for sure what the product or plan was for this group, but I’ll bet I probably have the highest income/time-invested ratio in the whole company…
May 12th, 2008 at 9:46 am
I think the legality of these types of organizations can be debated until we’re all blue in the face but just the fact that we can debate their legality is reason to take pause before pursuing these “opportunities”. Every day I walk into work I don’t give one thought about whether what I’m doing is legal or not. Every time I trade a stock I don’t think about whether the SEC will flag the transaction. And I think the importance of that cannot be overstated.
Also, with regards to whether or not you can actually make money at this or not, I don’t doubt that there are those who have gotten rich off of these type of things. But those people are always at the top; and if you’re getting in by attending a meeting at a hotel, you’re not at the top, and you’re going to be forced to gather the scraps at the bottom of the pyramid. And I think someone mentioned this before me, but I guarantee you that way more money was made on the sale of “training materials” or on application and registration fees than was ever made by participating in the program.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:46 am
I’m pretty sure the only way to make money in a pyramind/MLM scheme is to actually start one. If it’s top heavy, why not be the top?
May 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Wow - sounds like they even work their approaches to people based on the same script. I got approached the same way maybe 15 years or so back. The guy arranged to meet me some place and talked about this great opportunity - “say, we’re having this big regional meeting next week down at the convention center and all the big wigs will be there, want to go and see how this all works?” It was all very sly. I was suspicious, but decided to go to the meeting. It turned out to be Amway, and the meeting, as someone else said, was creepy. Fortunately, my wife had been busy and wasn’t able to attend, so when I made excuses and went to leave, my contact suggested I bring her with me next time, but noted that I shouldn’t mention “the A word - it tends to scare people off”. So, you want me to lie to my wife and not tell her it’s Amway? Any shred of credibility he had left evaporated at that moment.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:41 am
hey i didnt know such things took place in US as well. One of my friend fell for this kind of scheme here in India and almost drove him to bankruptcy and eventually to suicide but thank god his life was saved. Ofcourse now the pyramid schemes are banned but then that is almost 6-8 years ago they werent banned here in India…
So a good and a informative article!!
Cheers!
May 12th, 2008 at 11:12 am
I get approached ALL the time with stupid lines that are so easy to see through. One guy who had come up to me at a Target tried to hit me up at Lowes a week later. It’s getting to the point now where my wife and I play games to try and spot them and it’s almost like daring them to come try to talk to us. It’s something about being young, presentable, and friendly looking that makes them think we’re easy targets.
The funniest part is when I’m looking at something in the grocery store- usually some obscure ingredient, when some guy in khakis and a polo without a grocery cart or even a basket saddles up beside me and starts looking and evenutally notices my college hat or shirt and uses that as an excuse to start a conversation. Some guy even tried to ‘pick me up’ while I was at a gas station by asking me about my car. It’s a shame because I’ve found I’ve turned into a much less trusting person- I don’t believe in people just being friendly for friendlies sake- eventually it always comes down to someone trying to sell me on some scheme.
I used to work for a political party here in Virginia and a colleague of mine and I were sitting on a bench downtown having lunch and we were approached with these same techniques. We flipped the conversation around and basically started selling them on being involved in politics. They kept trying to make an excuse to leave, but I used all the lessons that I had learned from their brethern and kept them there for 25 minutes talking about my candidates and my party. They couldn’t get out of their fast enough– serves them right.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:43 am
I have a brother with a “get rich quick” mentality. He’s involved with Primerica. I don’t understand why I should take financial advice from a guy who’s almost 40, has no job (except Primerica, of course) and Dad pays his rent and credit card bills.
He says he works for them, but last I heard HE was paying THEM! HE was paying to attend conferences, HE was paying for training, I wonder if he had to pay for the materials he sent us.
At least he doesn’t talk about it when the family gets together Christmas and Thanksgiving.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
This is not entirely related, but my sister has been looking for jobs and answering newspaper want ads. She gets call backs and even interviews for jobs which are described as office-based in the ad, but when she gets there finds out it is a commission-only based sales job, where often she is not only not paid for her time training but will have to pay in some way for this training! It has been very frustrating and discouraging for her to get her hopes up and then go on one of these “interviews.” It has gotten so bad she feels there are very little real jobs posted in newspapers, or the ratio is so low it is not worth the effort.
These type of money making schemes really mine the capital of politeness, faith, trust, and goodwill people have for others in this country; it really is a shame.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
I posted my resume on Monster, and got a call the next day from a gas company in Ontario, who was ‘impressed’ by my fresh-out-of-university resume, and wanted to interview me for a sales position. I was curious enough (or dumb enough) to bite on the interview.
The interview, which I missed a few hours of paid work at my unglamorous job for, was a complete scam. I was interviewed by a ‘recruiter’. It took place in a very barren office in a newer industrial/commercial area. Seemingly no business actually went on there. I would not be getting my own desk at this company.
The lady spent the whole 10 minutes trying to sell the job to me; I did not have to sell myself at all. Had she actually interviewed me, she would have noticed that I was absolutely wrong for the position. She talked about all the potential perks: a company trip to Egypt IF I can sell enough contracts by a certain date, all the handsome young salesmen who would be my trainers and coworkers, and the potential money I could make (and that just one or two top sellers were making - $3000 week - and spending on flashy things!) By this point, I was expected to have stars in my eyes, thinking that I too could be a top seller. She did make sure I was OK with there being NO base pay, only commission on sales ($110 per sale.)
She didn’t talk at all about hours or the actual job itself. She just hinted to it being some work on weekends, and everyone getting into a car together from the office and going out to the site. She was quick to sign me up for the training session the following day (training sessions were WEEKLY.) I’d even get my own experienced salesman to shadow for my first few days on the job. Oh boy, I hope he’s cute!
To make matters worse, my interviewer was completely unprofessional. She told me about getting drunk and hitting on her boss, then asking if I’ve ever “gotten really loaded and done crazy stuff like that.” She also asked if I was single, and when I explained my relationship situation, she asked me if I was sixteen. Thanks for listening to me, lady. Glad you skimmed my resume beforehand.
The company was “Energy Savings Group” or “Ontario Energy Savings”. They’re the door-to-door salesmen who try to get you to switch from your current gas provider (Terasen) to a fixed-rate 5 year contract with them. I could not imagine going door-to-door in rainy Vancouver, only to get turned down again and again as I try to sell people something they absolutely do not need.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I have all the same comments about MLM schemes. I have been approached many times. I at least heard them out the first time because the couple was friends of mine. They took me to one of those meetings at a fancy house and made us feel really uncomfortable by making us stand in front of everyone and introduce ourselves. I shot people down every other time before they even said what they were selling. What I think is the most sleazy thing is that they prey on college students saying that it’s an easy way to make money when in reality these are the people who can least afford to make these mistakes.
As far as sales - My philosophy is if I am the least bit skeptical or not sure I want to buy something, I remember the name and look it up online. I also take the person’s card telling them I’ll call if I decide I want something. This makes me feel better about saying no, although it is not necessary. If I still want it after thinking about it for a day or 2, I can almost always find it cheaper online or find an off-brand replacement. And at the very least, you can call up the salesperson and buy one after the fact. It isn’t like they are going to turn you down! This has served me well many times, most recently with a nail care system at the mall. It cost $59 for a lotion, cuticle oil, and buffer, but I did really like how it made my nails healthy and shiny. So I went to WalMart and bought a buffer for $1.75, cuticle oil for $6, and I already had lotion at home. I got the same results for much less, not to mention the satisfaction that I wasn’t scammed into something.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
I got approached by some guy at the grocery store the other day who said “Hey, don’t you work for [big local employer]? Maybe in the [presumably randomly picked division]?” I wasted 5 minutes talking to him, thinking he was being honest and straightforward. I did find it odd that he shook a stranger’s hand twice in 3 minutes. Eventually he got around to asking if I was open to new business opportunities and I was able to shut him down. My guess at the time was that he was looking for people to invest money in his business, but this timely post presents a more likely scenario.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
There may be some legitimate MLM organizations out there, but I’ve wasted several hours being pitched for this stuff. Three things about it deeply offend me:
1) Their zeal for making a sale leads them to insincere contact with others. It ostracizes family and friends who should enjoy each other as persons rather than financial entities.
2) Some of the organizations like Qixtar blend Christianity with their mission. While I believe faith should guide vocation, what I’ve seen would lead Jesus to overturn their tables.
3) If you have a fraction of business sense no one seems to be capable of having a rational discussion with you. What is the capital cost? The risk? The ROI? It is as if the whole crowd is afraid of numbers but loves to talk about dreams and soft stuff.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I’ve watched family members do Shaklee, Amway, a “weight loss cookie” thing, Mary Kay, etc. My cousin’s wife was probably the worst, or best, of the bunch. She could give a 6-pack of “cookies” or a $30 Amway gift certificate as a Christmas gift and make it clear she thought it was the best thing in the universe to give me. Gee, thanks.
Back in the Microsoft boom years, a coworker told about a couple who tried to recruit her and her husband for Amway. The recruiters started by asking these two Microsofties to imagine what they would do with an extra $1000 a month. My coworker thought a minute and said “We’d save it.” No no, she was told, what about a new car? “We got a new minivan after the second kid.” Vacations? “We’re spending most of our vacation time on long weekends at home so we can have more time for us and the kids and not get too behind at the office.” What about sports equipment, musical instruments?” “We don’t use the stuff we already have.” Remodeling? “Oh GOD no, remodeling would be complete CHAOS!!!”
My coworker said the scary thing was that the recruiters were totally flummoxed. They couldn’t come up with ANY OTHER PITCH other than extra cash flow. Nothing about hands-on experience with sales or marketing or tracking profit/loss. Not even something about building relationships. Nada. And they had NO response to my coworker’s unwillingness to take on more commitments other than “but you’ll make money!”
May 12th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
You think getting suckered into going to a hotel is bad, imagine having a couple of Amway bots in your own house!! My (now ex) wife was fool enough to fall for all the Amway hype about Quixtar back in 1999 that our neighbors were pushing. I thought I was going to have to physically throw the Amway people out of my house since they wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer, and had the most ridiculous canned responses to all my questions. The one I remember the most because it was the most asinine was when I asked if Amway/Quixtar was a pyramid scheme. One of the Amway guys said “take a look at the org chart for your company. Doesn’t it look like a pyramid? Ergo, everyone who works for a company is part of a pyramid scheme.” Oh my god, I could go on. Stay away from Amway people. They are crazier than an outhouse rat.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I started tracking personal finances last year, when I quit my job to be a stay-at-home mom. I had to do it; we just couldn’t make it otherwise. But, the other motivation was that I did not want to be like my parents.
My parents are really terrible with money, and they’ve always complained about being poor and in debt, but the truth is they have spent thousands of dollars in bad business ventures throughout my lifetime. They did Amway, Melaleuca (still do), some Rain Forest thing, and my mom sold MaryKay and Avon products. My mom started two real businesses that lasted only a day (a $10K loss each time) and has spent almost $20,000 on schooling to be:
*A medical transcriptionist
*A medical assistant
*A phlebotomist
*A realtor
Yet she doesn’t even have an associate’s degree — they were all certificate programs. And she barely made a profit as a realtor, because she is so shy, she can hardly talk to strangers at all!
The worst one she did was selling a fake “miracle” machine. You took a drop of blood, put it on a piece of paper, and FAXED it to them. Then they took crystals out, diagnosed you, and sent you the results. Of course, since the illnesses were fake, it was easy for the machine to “cure” them (most people were diagnosed with both cancer and AIDS/HIV). But they bilked people for $1800 a machine. A lot of these people were elderly and sick. And, though my mom made a lot of money in this venture (all under the table, I might add), she also lost a lot (she gave one woman alone $5000 for “off-shore stocks,” without getting even a receipt, let alone a stock certificate). I was overseas for much of this one, but when I got home and realized what was happening, I called the cops on the company - the attorney general’s office was searching for their base of operations, and the local news had done an expose on the scheme. I told my parents I had notified the police (before they raided, I might add, but my mom still refused to accept it was illegal), and luckily my mom fell and twisted her ankle and couldn’t go to work the day the police came, or she might have done time. I have never seen my father more furious with me in my entire life, though, than when I told him I had called the cops on the operation. He just couldn’t see what was happening — to him, it was his “last chance” to get the easy life, never mind the morals. For myself, it was one of my lowest points; I was terribly disappointed in both my parents.
My parents are 58 and 62 now, and they’ve finally seen the light and are going to a real financial counselor. They are saving money, investing in index funds, and paying off debt. The sad thing is that, even though they’ve found what works, they have less than $10,000 saved for retirement, with my father only 7 years away from retiring.
Listen to the author of this post: Don’t fall for these schemes. I really wish my parents had. And J.D., thank you so much for this guest post. If it warns even one person away from a scheme, it’s worth it.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
MLM - the surest way of losing friends!
May 12th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
This is quite a timely article too. I’m a software developer who has been employed to make software for MLM companies several times (amway, tupperware, etc..). They all make huge profits on the backs of their people. Sure it’s a business, but many use the slickest gimmicks in the book to get people in.
Now, what’s most timely about this is that there are many reports that prove when recession’s seem imminent, the business sector with the largest *growth* is mlm’s. This would be a great entry for JD to present here, as an additional caution. Right now all the MLM’s are pushing into overdrive, because so many people are in a crunch. They will see this as the opportunity they need to make ends meet, or to get out of their ‘bad spot’.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Kym,
My buddy helped setup 12 Daily Pro. He’s paying for all the crap he did. FBI hit him hard and fast.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
My husband did Quixtar for a while. Creeped me out, and while the people who recruited him were super nice, we couldn’t be friends with them outside of the company. i went to one meeting, didn’t join, but my husband (then boyfriend) bought into it, amid loud warnings on my part. He didn’t force anyone else to join, though, so he quickly fell out of it.
Question for everyone: i started selling Tupperware 2 years ago, which doesn’t seem so bad. i don’t do much work, but people go online and buy from my site about enough for me to break even of the $7.95/month it costs to have a tupperware website. i mostly do it for the discount. i could do it more, but am terrible with sales. My husband keeps telling me that i shouldn’t have talked so badly about Quixtar, since Tupperware is the same thing. But it doesn’t feel the same to me. What do you guys think?
May 12th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
I happen to like companies like Avon, Melaleuca and Tupperware. I despise Amway and Mary Kay. Why? I’ve had good experiences with the former and bad experiences with the latter.
My mother sold Avon when I was a toddler and won a car from them (back when a customer’s average order was probably under $5) and I really like the products of all 3 companies.
But my first husband agreed to buy something from Amway that turned into a real hassle from getting the item to returning it to getting the money back when it turned out to be unsatisfactory.
I went to a Mary Kay party around the same time, fully expecting to buy something (because I don’t think you should agree to go to one of these things if you aren’t interested). But the woman wouldn’t *allow* any of us buy a lipstick or an eye shadow. You had to take the whole set of cleanser/toner/moisturiser for $72 (which would be like paying about $300 in today’s dollars) before you could buy anything else. Her analogy was that it was like baking a cake–you couldn’t do it without the right ingredients, so there was no point in just buying the decorations to go on top.
So she demonstrated for 6 or 8 women, using products, disposable stuff, etc. and didn’t make a single sale because none of us were in a position to spend that kind of money, but we each would have spent $7 or $8 if she’d let us.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Oh, man…we’ve had really bad experiences with Amway affiliated folks.
My husband and I have always made friends readily, and have always gone out of our way to make new folks to our places of work, our area or our church feel welcome there.
But twice in our married lives, shortly after we’ve moved to a new state, the ‘favor’ was not reciprocated.
We were approached by folks that we presumed were just friendly people like us, trying to make us feel welcome to the area, only to learn that it was all under false pretenses, and all they really wanted from us was to be part of their pyramid in Amway.
I will never support Amway products for that very reason. I take tactics like that personally.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
I live in the birthplace of Amway, and their pure evil spills into the community constantly. They own everything here. I’m entirely surprised their awful energy bars haven’t replaced the evening mints on the pillows in their hotel. Ick.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Even in my short time on this Earth, I too have been approached about a MLM scheme (this one from Quixtar, formerly known as Amway). I knew it wasn’t too legit after talking with the promoter (a former classmate) on the phone, but agreed to meet with him “associate” anyway, as a learning experience. A learning experience it was (fortunately didn’t take 3-hours) and the next time the guy called, I declined to get further involved. My parents taught me a good rule, which is that if someone with a business cannot quickly and easily explain what product or service they are selling, it is probably not legit.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
MLM has even invaded Japan. I teach English here and one of the other teachers at my school was involved with Neways. We started talking about nutrition and whatnot and then it shifted into the sales pitch. And the talking with people in her upline.
I ended up getting my own # and dropping $30 or so on vitamins and stuff, but never did anything else, or bought anything else. I’m pretty sure my “membership” has expired by now. Like others, you engage and maybe buy something mainly not to be rude, be polite, and - in my case - foster that positive working relationship.
[And the "not be rude" factor is kicked up a notch here in Japan.]
Was glad of the language barrier, as it probably kept the hardsell away, but flipping through their literature and catalogs and everything, the cult/pyramid bits shone through.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:30 am
ah when these MLMs are in the family, it really is the worst. My much older brother who I’ve never been very close to, invited me over for dinner once after I finished college and did not have much money. It was the first time he’d ever invited just me over for dinner. Well half-way through the pizza, he started to tell me about this great new internet company, not a pyramid scheme etc. I knew he was in Amway (and to his credit, he’s one of the super successful Amway people) so I asked him if this was Amway and at first he said no and then when I pushed him, he said yes, it was related to Amway (it was qixtar). To be polite, I said it sounded interesting and he gave me some motivational tapes to listen to. I later told him no and he has never since (10 years now) invited me back for dinner just myself.
May 13th, 2008 at 3:51 am
I had the opportunity right out of school to attend an Amway “Dream-night” conference.
Which at that time was a huge pep rally for whatever “diamond direct” distributor you work for.
Duane nailed the biggest turn-off for me.
I saw a thin veneer of Christianity pasted over a naked materialism that would make Satan blush.
As I pointed out years later to another potential recruit:
As hard as you have to work to be successful in any MLM, you should instead start your own company and keep ALL the profits for yourself instead of slaving for an upline.
The best book to read by someone who did get to the point of making real money, but ultimately could not “become” Amway is _Amway: The Cult of Free Enterprise_
May 13th, 2008 at 4:51 am
There is a thing called the Direct Selling Association to which many upstanding MLM companies belong. If a company does not belong to that association, beware, because there are many, many dishonest companies out there looking for vulnerable people.
Then it also needs to be said that you need to separate the company from the individual making the sale. A company’s approach to MLM may be completely upstanding, but an individual salesperson may take something good and turn it into a cheesy sale that makes you feel taken advantage of. There are many people who are of the highest character that work for MLM companies that are solid, ethical organizations.
One sign of an ethical MLM company is their products - are they of good quality? If they have good products and are selling their products and not just their opportunity, they are probably a good company. A company cannot exist without customers; if they just have salespeople (aka just talk about the opportunity), you have a problem.
Finally, with everything, it’s not just the opportunity, it’s what you do with it. You can take the most upstanding MLM company, invest in a kit and then do nothing with it and claim you’ve been scammed. Treat a business like a hobby (do it when you feel like it) and it will pay you like a hobby; treat it like a business (with hard work and good ethics) and it will pay you like a business.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:23 am
A couple of the comments here remind me of an incident when my girlfriend and I first moved into our condo. My girlfriend received a call asking if we would allow somebody to come in and demonstrate the Kirby vacuum cleaner to us; in exchange they’d clean two of the carpets in our condo. Of course she said yes.
I told her I wanted nothing to do with this and so as soon as the lady came over I went upstairs to work on the computer. 4 1/2 hours later I finally went down and kicked her out myself. Even when I came down, she kept trying to lower the price and “calling for approval” for the new price to get us to buy. She even tried to guilt us into it by saying that if *we* bought a vacuum then *she* would get a free trip to Cancun (what a salesgirl!)..
The only upside to the event was that we realized what color the carpet actually was, hated it, and ripped it out in favor of wood
May 13th, 2008 at 5:44 am
Wow… 76 comments so far!
The worst experiences I’ve had with these people, all Quixtar, has been on airplanes sitting next to them. Imagine getting the whole schpeel for 3 hours, with no way out!! It’s happened to my wife and I twice!! It was the same strategy for both of them, they were talking about how they both have full time jobs and do this on the side but make an extra $5,000 a month, and they both drive amazing cars, live in big houses and buy expensive crap. Yeah right, that’s why your sitting in the middle seat in coach! What a joke.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:26 am
The timing of this post was just uncanny! I had an old friend from high school call my dad’s house trying to reach me, and he gave me her number to call back. (I haven’t lived at home in nearly a decade.) When I finally talked to her, last night, she tried to get me to join some MLM/pyramid scheme thing. Luckily, my cell phone connection was bad (ha!) and I was able to end the call before she got too involved. This woman was trying to reach me for weeks! Unbelievable.
For the record, the scheme was “cutting out the middlemen” between large companies and the consumer. The website was so unprofessional and so obviously a template that I almost laughed. It said “It’s that simple!” no less than every page.
It’s never that simple.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:52 am
The one funny thing about Cutco is that the knives are actually pretty good.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Some time after my parents divorced, my mom told me that my dad’s parents had lost a lot of money in Amway when a sleazy upliner (or whatever they’re called) absconded with a lot of money from his marks. My grandfather’s ill health after that was something my mom blamed on the stress of the scam. I’ve never spoken to my dad about it, but I do recall a lot of Amway products in my grandparents’ house when I was a kid.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Just chiming in with my own primerica experience - the person who recruited me was very kind and it was all within her family, who I thought were too nice to be doing this type of thing. Her uncle, who gave the presentation, had this constant look of guilt on his face while he was talking. The good news is that I brought my husband, who knows that I’m interested in personal finance but never seemed to care. After listening to what they had to say about compound interest and the power of saving, he really started to jump on board with me about handling our own finances. So at least I got that out of it - but I never talked to any of the other people again.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:33 am
upstanding MLM companies
Sorry, but this is an oxymoron…all MLM companies are, by definition, pyramid schemes. As such, their business structures are both unsustainable and inherently dishonest. If their products are really worthwhile, they would be better sold through either door-to-door or direct marketing approaches and be more honest.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Remeber the nurse who rescued her boyfriend out of a courthouse by shooting a few people and tried to take a cab from Kentucy to Columbus, OH? They were reported by suspicious cab driver and finally got caught? When people asked the cab driver why he thought the couple is unusural he said that the couple told him they are Amway sale people - but they didn’t try to sell him anything during the 2.5 hour drive!!!
May 13th, 2008 at 10:10 am
I just wanted to chime in here-
I did Cutco right out of high school for a few months, and although it it a scam, I came out with some good experience. I got a small set of the knives (really, they are very good, despite the company sucking. At my house we’ve ditched the Wustof set for them). I also got some practice public speaking, plus I made some money (I made a couple of grand, and the set was only $139). It wasn’t a stable income though, obviously. If you like doing sales, its not so bad, but even if you wanted to do it part time for fun they would never let you.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am
A friend has been talking to me about SendOutCards. It has a real product — a centralized, computerized system that can create custom cards with your message, and mail them — but it is definitely an MLM. I’m torn. The initial cost is $400.00. If you sign up three “distributors” below you, you get back $120.00 for each of them, so your initial investment becomes $40.00.
There’s a real business idea there, and I think the financials are good for the small business people who I think would be the main users of Send Out Cards. (For example, a caterer who wants to send periodic messages to potential customers — in fact, any small businessperson who depends on many repeat customers.)
One thing that worries me is, I don’t know how I would see an accounting of how many customers actually sent cards — and if I don’t know that number, I don’t know that I’m really being paid the % I’m supposed to be paid for each card sent. I doubt there’s a way to audit the sales.
Well, I guess that’s my answer right there. If there’s no way to see the books, why would I pour effort into the business?
May 13th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
WOW! This post is great! I just wanted to say something about this “opportunities scams”.
The wind blows equally to everyone…
I have been involved in the multilevel marketing industry since my 17 years old. Traveling to various places and countries. My experience teach me that this kind of business aren’t for everyone. There are a lots of testimonials of people in need of a real opportunity who join network markeitng and became part of the 97% that fails!…This industry it’s just an option…and if you fit in the industry, you’re gonna make very nice income but first you have discover if you like to help people (You must read the Business School book of Robert Riyosaki)
It is business (habits) skills that make you rich, not the money…
MLM is not a standard make-money-on-the-side job. For many, it becomes a lifestyle. Some have tried to incorporate spiritual principles. MLM “pep rallies,” training seminars, workshops, and retreats are the industry norm. Network Marketing has its own distinct culture, and financial growth is impossible without becoming part of that culture.
That’s the real truth…financial growth is impossible without becoming part of that culture…
I believe that mlm business works but isn’t for everybody (you have to do your research of the company management, the product, the timing, etc, etc… just like every other business have to do before it goes to the public)
Anyway, all i have to say is that thanks to my network marketing experiences now a day i am a better person and learn to see life from a complete different perspective.
I am an electrical engineer, I loved my career but to be honest I hated the lack of freedom that working in a traditional career offers.
That’s why i’m doing online business, including, online network marketing business….
I know that Network Marketing and Internet Marketing is asking people NO permission to grow and is a non-stop trend and a challenge. Every day I learn more about it and decided to be part of it spreading the mlm vision based on education, the same principle that kiyosaki recommends. It is not what you can do with the business, is what you can get out of yourself, your mind is your most valuable possession!
This is my vision in my currently mlm’s opportunities: My vision is to provide great information about the MLM industry and multiple streams of income resources, to give them support, training and financial opportunities for people who has the desire to overcome their financial struggles through home entrepreneurship.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Has anybody heard of Arbonne? My wife’s best friend is trying to get her to do it. I know it’s an MLM business, but it seems legit. Basically you set people up with an account online and they can order what they want, when the want. You can see your “team’s” sales for the month and they give you all the information you need to calculate what your cut will be.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Any sort of stock-market picker software or up front membership fee to sell products biz is a scam.
I had a friend go into one of the PrePaid Legal scaminars awhile ago in college. I literally dragged her out of the meeting two hours in, with her screaming that she wanted to stay and would put the 2K on her credit card.
After a day, she profusely thanked me for saving her financial life.
I hate scams.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Don’t fall for MLM schemes. They are all scams. Now, what if I told you that you can make all the money you would EVER need, CHOOSE your own hours, and buy EVERYTHING you’ve ever wanted?
Well, you can do all that and MORE with Dr. icup’s magical mystery pills, guaranteed to cure any and all diseases, and increase your pep, vim, and vigor by 150%.
But wait, I know what you’re thinking. “I’m just not a salesman, I couldn’t sell a Pardon to Scooter Libby.” Well, my friend, may I call you friend? That is the beauty of Dr. icup’s Magical Mystery Pills. YOu don’t have to sell the — they sell themselves! It really is that easy to have everything you’ve ever wanted.
Best of all, since I really like you, I’m going to let you in on the ground floor. And there is no ceiling!
How much would you pay to be able to quit your day job and make millions? $500? $250? $100? Since I like you, I tell you what I’m going to do. You too can have your very own Dr. icup’s Magical Mystery Pills information kit for the shockingly low price of $59.95, and then just 10 easy payments of $99.95!
Sign up a friend and I’ll GIVE YOU BACK 3 of your payments! That’s right, you will be SAVING NEARLY $300! Couldn’t you use an extra $300 right now? Who couldn’t?
Act Now!
May 13th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Hmmm, Moses, let me get this straight: you “decided to be part of it spreading the mlm vision based on education” that is, to use the educational spiel as your sales tatic. And the rest of your post attempts to educate us on mlm. Ergo, your post is an ad for your mlm business. Is that allowed?
May 13th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
ms_junen, thanks for your reply…
As a fan of getrichslowly.org, isn’t my intention to promote my mlm businesses, because this is not a blog to promote anything besides getting rich slowly theory…experiences, etc, etc, etc..
I didn’t mention any name of my businesses opportunities like other people are doing, i’m a professional on what I do.
Finally, my point is this: Network Marketing has its own distinct culture, and financial growth is impossible without becoming part of that culture.
It’s Simple but harder at the same time…
To whom may it concern:
Do your homework! Read about mlm industry and then decide if you fit or not…remember that your mind is your most valuable possession!
God Bless!
PD
I hate sales by the way…I prefer to have multiple streams of passive income working for me, and one of my vehicles is the mlm business model integrated with the internet… I like to have options and get rich slowly…
May 13th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Indeed, great post! My friend recently became involved in an MLM. It is a totally shady organization and everyone in our circle of friends disapproves of his involvement. Saddest part is that it has changed the way I view him — I never realized he could be so materialistic.
We all hope he smartens up soon and gets out.
May 14th, 2008 at 8:03 am
My wife joined an MLM about 3 years ago, and has had tremendous success. She has enjoyed success due to many of the same reasons people succeed in any sales orientated business:
1. She is an extremely hard worker and a self-starter
2. She is good at what she does
3. She is a professional, and treats her business as such
4. She is a little lucky
5. She is driven
6. She is brutally honest to everyone she speaks to that the 5 above are REQUIRED in order to be successful.
In our experience, most that fail do so because they lack #1 and #3, not because of the MLM business model.
There are all kinds of MLM’s out there. Some are shady, some are border line illegal. Some, however, ARE legitimate business models that, given the right MLM, the right person, and the right time, can be a tremendous success.
May 14th, 2008 at 9:47 am
I studied principles of persuasion in Grad school and came across Robert Cialdini’s work. He shows why/how these tactics persuade people and contends that simply recognizing the approach will disarm many sales pitches:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini
Very helpful in fending of MLMs as well as sales pitches in general.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:38 am
1) Do not pay the company/firm/whatever that is ‘recruiting’ you for ‘required training’ for whatever position they are recruiting you for. If they are legitimately recruiting you but you need training, they should provide it at a minimum for free, or as paid training. Or, if the training required is legitimately needed, it should be available from a university, community college, trade school, etc.
2) Avoid situations where you have to buy a product before you can sell it (ie buying your ‘demo set’ of cutco knives; they probably make more money on those demo-sets than actual ‘managers’ selling the knives to others.
Scams will almost always want you to put up money up front to get a position. A legitimate business is not going to demand that a recruit pay them to be recruited.
May 14th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
The perfect comeback to a MLM pitch is this. Tell them you are always willing to look at investment opportunities, but you treat all opportunities the same. What you require is three years of tax returns to verify the kind of income this business will generate. (If you were to buy a business, your banker would ask for the same thing before you were loaned money, so it is a perfectly reasonable request) Tell them if the tax returns prove they are making the kind of money that they claim, you will seriously look at the opportunity.
I have used this line many times, and no one has taken me up on it. I will stick with investing in real businesses and rental property thank you.
Now, they may tell you their tax returns don’t show the type of income because the opportunity is “tax efficient”. That means you lose money…..
May 14th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
(Dittos to Moses Colon’s comment above)
Once upon a time I was a network marketer. You know what, after swearing it off I am back in the mix 5 years later.
I originally did Quixtar. That had been the only MLM I had heard of and I got approached 4 times over a 6 year period. I gave it a try. I didn’t last. It wasn’t the right opportunity/product for me.
The difference this time is I have a use for the product and respect the people that are in my group.
I am with NetWorthUSA, and their 4 products teach people how to invest in real estate.
I am fortunate that in Kansas City we have 350 other distributors that form an investor community to network with. We have a huge contact base to draw from if you have a need for someone involved with buying, selling, renting or maintaining property. If you have questions you can get a multitude of answers.
I wanted to start investing in real estate. THAT is why I got back into network marketing, I wanted the contact base.
Has it worked? I bought my 1st house last fall via a lead from another member and made ~$10k with an additional 20% equity in the property and no money out of pocket. My rents provide enough profit to cover 3x my re-occurring monthly costs for NetWorthUSA.
I’m sold. It works…for me.
The deal is you have to find something that fits your style and that you have an ongoing interest in. I am interested in real estate and can give a