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Money management can be difficult, even when you’re on your own. Throw a life partner into the mix and things get more complicated. What can you do if you and your spouse just aren’t on the same financial page? Hal recently wrote with a question:
I got married about a year ago to a wonderful girl who is up to her ears in debt, including medical bills and student loans (including federal loans) which have been in default for some time. I did know about this debt before we got married, and I knew it would be quite some time before we’d get her finances back on track.
Here is my issue: whenever I bring up anything financial, whether it’s repaying her loans or other past debts, saving money, setting a budget, etc., she gets very defensive and angry, and refuses to talk about it.
I manage our joint finances, but she has her own bank account that she is in control of, which she never talks about, other than to tell me there is no money in it. I accepted my wife’s financial situation when I married her, but it seems like she doesn’t want to change it.
Is there anything I can do to have an open dialogue with her about money matters without making her defensive?
This is a great question, not just for couples with joint finances, and not just for married couples, but for all couples everywhere. Continued financial conflict can place a severe strain on any relationship.
In January, I shared a guest post from Gather Little by Little, who wrote about how to stop fighting with your spouse about money. This article provides some good tips, though it doesn’t offer any solutions when your partner refuses to talk about money. The comments on that post contain feedback from some people who try to avoid the subject, and from people dealing with reluctant spouses. It seems there are plenty of couples in which one person isn’t willing to discuss money.
I read once that situations like this are sometimes caused by a perceived “lack of control”. The spending partner, or the partner who is unwilling to discuss finances, feels like they do not have control over their finances, nor the couple’s finances. One solution is to find a way to grant them more control.
In this case, Hal manages the couple’s joint finances. It may prove beneficial to include his wife more in the process, to allow her more decision-making power. (Of course, this may not work at all, but it sounds like a reasonable thing to try.)
Do you have experience with a similar situation? Have you been the spouse reluctant to talk about money? Have you been in a relationship in which you could not get your partner to deal with the subject? How did you handle it? What advice can you offer Hal? How can he get his wife to talk about money?
July 25th, 2008 at 5:21 am
The only way i have found to make my wife put some money in the bank is to tell here : that money will be for… and you add something SHE wants. It can be for the futur baby, or the futur kitchen or the trip of her life… Everything else i try was a complete faillure.
Since i do that, she is buying much less things like clothes…
Anybody else have tips ?
July 25th, 2008 at 5:38 am
Maybe that was something that should have been resolved BEFORE you got married! A marriage is the biggest financial decision of your life and I cannot believe one would jump into something without having an issue like this resolved. Finances are the biggest reason for divorce and looks like we might have one brewing here! At least the attorneys will get their share soon.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:51 am
Perhaps Hal can keep a whiteboard or print out of the budget out where they can both see. Maybe seeing a budget that works can encourage her to examine her own accounts. If there is left over money, you can ask her what are her thoughts on what should be done.
I hope they are able to work this thing through.
July 25th, 2008 at 5:51 am
This can be a hotbutton topic in any household. We have come to middle ground by jointly setting financial goals and the strategy for reaching them. If you are “in it together” a lot of the tension is eliminated! Find the debt, agree on a strategy to get rid of it, talk about the benefits of doing so and don’t be afraid to make adjustments as you go if things are not working!
July 25th, 2008 at 5:53 am
IIf there’s one thing this blog helps make clear, it’s that decisions about money are inextricably tied up with emotions and (as J.D. mentions) issues of control, security, etc. From my own experience — I’m now in my second marriage — I can tell you that issues about money are almost NEVER just about money, and failure to resolve them in a way that works for both of you will only lead to deep unhappiness.
If you look at what you are saying, it seems pretty clear that a) she doesn’t trust you completely and b) you’ve been willing to
“let it roll” to keep things together. (Right?) I imagine if you looked at your relationship objectively you’d see it’s a pattern that holds for more than just your money. Neither of these is sustainable in a healthy relationship. (Trust me.)
I cannot suggest this strongly enough: You two need to get to marital counseling as soon as possible. I fully expect that you all will not be able to make any major purchases as a couple — house, car, etc. — until her financial problems are resolved, so there’s a clear incentive to get them addressed. Of course, she’s likely to be highly resistant — indeed, too many folks don’t agree to counseling, seeing it as a “failure” of some sort, until too late. But you need to try, for the sake of your marriage.
And lest you think I’m being overly dramatic, I’m not. I’ve been there and was not smart enough to address this properly — hell, I thought I was the hero for supporting her! Needless to say, when I remarried I was much smarter about it — together we went to counseling beforehand, not because there were problems, but because we wanted to get off on a strong foot. Smartest thing I ever did — directly set the stage for a much healthier space in which to talk about money (among other issues) and clearly identify the “buttons” that money issues pushed for the both of us. So when we talk about money, we know why we react the way we do and can better compensate for it.
The fact is these issues are almost certainly not just about money. So if you try to address them as if they are, you are highly likely to not only fail, but to make them worse. You need to get at the underlying issues, and the best way to do that is with an objective outside professional (a marital counselor, not a financial planner).
Do it now. You — and your wife and any present/future children — will be so glad you did!
July 25th, 2008 at 5:53 am
Seems like it might go better if she discussed financial matters with a financial planner or a knowledgeable friend. Within the dynamic of the marriage, it’s kind of inevitably going to be “I’m bringing up an issue that makes me look good and you look bad.” Does he have anything he could trade off in that regard? Is there something she wants to discuss with him that he’s being defensive about?
July 25th, 2008 at 6:06 am
Yeah, talk about these things before getting married. But if one person refuses to talk about anything, sometimes an objective third party whether a therapist or financial planner, can draw it out of them.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:07 am
I’m a firm believer that all anger is as a result of fear; fear she perhaps has of being judged by you for her apparent lack of financial know-how and poor financial past, despite the fact that she knew you knew about her financial affairs prior to marriage.
Perhaps assuring her of your unconditional love and commitment to helping her with her problems, will ease the fear and make her less defensive?
She needs to be at least willing to learn and solve the problem.
Dunno?
July 25th, 2008 at 6:10 am
Well let’s hope it doesn’t get to divorce. So in an effort to keep away from that…I suggest counseling. Couples therapy. Society links dollar signs to self esteem. Unfortunately many people use money as a bandaid. For instance, by purchasing their way through an emotional rough patch rather than addressing the real issue.
How did she get into this situation to begin with? That’s very telling as well and can provide some guidance as to how to get out of it. What relationship do her parents/siblings have with money? Did she grow up wealthy/middle class?
Maybe your wife is feeling insecure, embarrassed or maybe she never learned the proper tools to manage debt and is feeling overwhelmed now.
Maybe without you even realizing it she may be interpreting your suggestions as judgement so she shuts down.
She may be equating her financial situation to her self worth. And I’m guessing that comes from something that happened to her before or based on how she grew up.
Given that this is your philosophy too, explain to her that debt isn’t bad. It’s necessary to achieve certain things in life. But patent leather shoes don’t count as a valid reason for going into debt no matter how cute they are!
Go to couples therapy and make one of the goals in couples therapy to improve on her debt. I say one of the goals because it should be about both of you. Don’t make her feel like she’s on the chopping block. Have her explain how this situation came about and what you can do to get through it together. And I can’t stress enough how important it is that throughout this whole time you continue to reiterate how you are not judging her for having this debt. I’m pretty sure that’s a big reason for why she shuts down - regardless of whether it’s true or not.
Bottom line is, she will have to do a lot of the emotional work and the best thing - and the most - you can do is be there, be supportive and not judge.
I hope I’m not overstepping. I was in a similar situation where I had accumulated a lot of debt in my early twenties and while I had changed my ways and was paying it all down, because the mass media puts such a negative spin on debt, I felt if someone I met saw the debt, they would look down on me. And that’s rubbish. The thing I realized was I made a mistake, I realized it and created a plan to get out of it, which I will carry with me throughout my whole life. And THAT’S what the person should focus on.
I hope this helps!!!
July 25th, 2008 at 6:11 am
I’d suggest scheduling a meeting rather than just bringing it up. Give her about a week or so to get used to the idea of discussing it and to gather the information together. And let her decide what day to have the meeting (gives her more of a feeling of control.)When you ask for the meeting, tell her that you understand that she is handling it (even though that is something of a lie) but that since you two are married you need to know about it too. Let her know exactly what you want to know, but don’t get too elaborate. Just ask for who she owes, how much, minimum payment, and interest rates. You could even put together a sheet with spaces to be filled in for each debt. (put plenty of them on there so she doesn’t run out of spaces and feel worse - plus if she doesn’t use them all it’ll make what she owes seem less significant.
Back when I was in debt, I was ashamed to talk about it. Make sure you don’t take fatherly tone when discussing it. Make it less about asking to help and more about asking for help. Let her know that you are uncomfortable asking about it but that you think it is important that the two of you be open and honest with each other. After all, you’re going to be together a long time and you both want to have a secure financial future.
Also bring all your financial info to the meeting as well - makes it seem more collaborative and less coercive.
Good luck.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:15 am
Well one thing I would advise as a general approach to the situation is to never get angry or irritated with her about it. Because that will only make it worse. Always approach her in a calm and understanding manner.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:19 am
I have this exact argument time and again with my wife.
The problem for me though, is that because my wife burns through the cash FAST, I’m often left to find the cash for things like day-to-day bread/milk/dinner/etc.
Any discussion on money leads to one (or a combination of) sulking, shouting, claims of “I don’t love her”.. and more. We’re in our mid 40’s… hard to believe.
In my case, I’ve found it helps to offer help in creating a budget spreadsheet. I created a week-by-week budget for her (she is paid weekly), and together we filled in the things she would normally be responsible for. I also review my own budget with her on an ongoing basis.
This has helped turn the “I’m right you’re wrong” view on the discussion to “this is what I’m trying, have you got any suggestions”.. and so far it seems to be helping.
It’s still touch-and-go occasionally, but we’re slowly getting there.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:22 am
My husband and I had the exact same problem when I tried to get him to talk about budgeting and making financial plans. It wasn’t until he read my blog (I write about finances) about the exchange and how much I really just wanted to work as a team to make a plan, rather than just lecture him about money, that he understood. For a look at what I said to get him to understand, you can go here: http://www.3princessesmomma.com/2008/01/budget-meetings/
July 25th, 2008 at 6:23 am
When married couples don’t agree on money and separate everything, they have separated their decision-making, their priorities, and their goals as a couple. Money flows to what is important. What you do with money writes your autobiography. If the things that your money flows to is completely opposite from that of your spouse, you have major issues.
When a couple agrees on spending and doing a budget together, they’ve also agreed on common goals and priorities. That strengthens the marriage.
Selfishness does not work in relationships.
The #1 cause of divorce in America is financial disagreement.
When you get married you lose your right to run off and do your own thing – whether that’s with money or anything else. You’re not independent anymore. If you want to be independent, then don’t get married. There’s a reality that is reflected in money when you get married and it says that you have to do things together or the marriage isn’t going to work.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:26 am
I was that wife when I was younger. Don’t forget that it is easier to be defensive/angry than it is to be humiliated/lost/overwhelmed.
I don’t have any great tips about how to get through it so that you can both talk about her handling of her debt I just remember that I was fully aware of the fact that I was a detriment to the house because of poor choices I couldn’t figure out how to fix.
{I’m all better now by the way, no credit debt, no car debt, student loan debt that I am being serious about - so it can/will be fixed with patience}
July 25th, 2008 at 6:28 am
I guess I was lucky. Once we started talking about having kids my wife got really on board with saving and getting out of debt.
I started our discussions by reading and learning on my own and sharing what I learned and what I felt about our financial situation. She agreed completely.
I would also advise against having separate accounts. You are leaving the door open for hiding money and bad habits that way.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Ditto on the counselling. She likely has issues with money and its meaning (to her). This is covered in many personal money management books aimed at women. Women don’t have the same ‘relationship’ with money that men do. She needs to resolve this as an individual before the next step of couples money management. For your consideration is that money issues are often a reflection of other issues such as her relationship with you and how she handles other problems: is she defensive & angry when you two discuss other issues besides money? Pick up Suze Orman’s Women & Money (as an example–there’s others by David Bach plus women focused blogs), as a start to understand where your wife is with her perception of money.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:31 am
You know, I went through something similar. But like any other problem, the person in it has to want to make a change. Like a smoker, telling someone they need to quite usually just ticks them off!
For now, keep your finances separate and resist the temptation help or loan her money. Until she gets on track, it could drain you. Even small things like utility deposits are dependent on credit, and those with bad credit get dinged 5 different ways - insurance premiums, etc. It’s not at all helpful with getting people on track because it makes people come up with money that would be better off going to pay debt, but that’s how it is.
I also agree with marital counseling. Or for her, individual counseling. Because there’s a reason she’s not dealing with the problem, and it might also be affected by depression.
I’ve had relationships with a variety of different financial types. Some men want to buy me everything, put me in an apartment. (Beware of that - very bad!) Some men didn’t help at alll, even when they knew I was very ill. Some men wanted me to split expensive extravagant purchases/trips (that’s just not my speed) In the end, I have found my ideal financial partner. Money is easy between us because we trust each other; I don’t mind ‘loaning’ him $100 because I’ve done the same. We also tend to be thoughtful and frugal about purchases, and also know that if someone asks for it, it’s needed so don’t interrogate.
Some people are willing to put relationships on the line for money; I’m not. While it can be an indicator of some personality characteristics, I have known and loved many good people who were simply bad with money.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:34 am
Telling Hal he made a mistake getting married to this woman doesn’t help at this point.
Hal, I think it’s a great step that you came here asking for ideas. I think some of the ideas other readers have mentioned could be helpful- particularly speaking with an outside, objective person you trust.
On the flip side, in the past, I was the one who didn’t ever want to talk about it. Although it wasn’t with my spouse, it was with my father, while I was in college. For me, the reason I didn’t want to talk about it was because I was embarrassed, ashamed, etc., of what I perceived to be my poor money management techniques. I don’t know if I can pinpoint an exact moment in which the “lightbulb” went off, but I eventually discovered that I needed to wisen up and talk to someone I trusted about my finances. Once I realized that my Dad only wanted to help me, not hurt me, that made it a lot easier for me to accept help. Perhaps your wife is just a very independent individual who doesn’t accept help very easily.
Hope it works out for you!
July 25th, 2008 at 6:37 am
I think one way to start is to sit down and discuss goals and expectations for your marriage. How many kids, and when; where you want to live, how you want to live, major vacations you want to take down the road, thought on retirement. Get excited about the goals, and start talking about how you are going to get there and what you are willing to give up to make it happen and what you aren’t willing to give up. With that much debt it sounds like she sees the problem as a enormous tangled mess where escape is impossible. I think the Dave Ramsey plan might work here, tackling the smallest debt first and getting a few quick wins under your belt. Unless you got married right out of school, you probably have a lot of redundant household stuff. Have a garage sale to kickstart the process. The major pitfall is to approach it as “your debt, your money, my money”. You married her, and accepted the situation. its your debt now as much as hers, so don’t just sell her stuff, or ask her to give up getting her hair done, without considering giving up your sports channels (i know blatant stereotypes, but you get the point).
as to the other bank account - if it really has no money in it, close it. If not, than you have way more problems beyond money, and you should see counseling. Also be careful of the “I manage the household finances”. Its one thing for one person to be in charge of paying bills, but both need to make the household budget and both need to know where every penny is going.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:37 am
With my husband, I discovered that he was all for having a budget and trying to get things paid off, but that he felt as if I was blaming it all on him by simple the way I’d approach it.
First off was taking the “you” and “I” our of our finacial conversations. Now it’s all “we” and “ours”. Check how you communicate and make sure every ounce of blame is gone. It’s not “her” debt anymore, it’s just debt that you both need to deal with. Talk about goals along with the debt, so the conversation isn’t so depressing. My husband could spend hours and hours talking about things he wanted to do, places he wanted to see. I would turn these into our finacial goals.. pay off debt 1 and 2 and we’d be able to afford to to X. Pay off debt 3 and 4 and we can got get a Y.
Another thing that helped to really get him on board was to draw up a 5 year plan. It help for him to be able to see that the belt tighting/bill paying wasn’t going to last forever. When the bills get big, it’s hard to imagine a day without them. Even harder to imagine what life might be like with the extra cash.. but seeing the numbers on paper really made it seem possible to him.
I still do all the bugeting and I’m still the one to make sure all the bills get paid. But now I talk to him about everything I’m doing. When I draw up the budget, I always sit him down and ask if he is ok with it, is there areas we may need a little more in or areas we can maybe do a little less in. I find the more I include him on the non-serious money talk, the more he is willing to get engaged in the process.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:44 am
The couple’s issue is not a financial one — it is one of direction, or lack thereof…
What I mean by this is that a marriage is not unlike a vehicle that is shared. The couple will certainly “wreck” if they both have a hand on the wheel with different directions in mind.
Either one of them needs to drive or they should both drive with a SHARED direction and, ulitmately, a shared destination.
The answer is what I call a “life plan.” They need to begin with the end in mind. Once they agree on a destination then the financial matters will be shaped around that destination.
A life plan is much like a mission statement. The couple’s personality differences will not change — but their destination can…
“No wind serves him who addresses his voyage to no certain port.” ~ Michel de Montaigne
July 25th, 2008 at 6:50 am
I was going to say that perhaps a third party would be good(so, I’m echoing the counseling advice!). If Hal and his wife are members of a church, perhaps a pastor there or one of the elders(or a couple they respect) could help them.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:59 am
When I was “up to my ears” in debt, I felt like it was completely hopeless. I didn’t know how many cards I had, how high my balances were, and what my interest rates were. Ignorance was bliss… but it was also a good cover for shame. Because a “responsible” person doesn’t get herself into these kinds of situations.
So how did I get myself out of this mess? I had a friend who started telling me about the mess she was in. She also started telling me about her goals and dreams and what she was going to do about the mess so that it would stop holding her back. It made me realize that mistakes are inevitable, but that doesn’t mean solutions can’t be found. And it also made me realize that I wasn’t a bad person, and that there was a way out.
I think in Hal’s case, it would help to stop talking about it as if it were all “her” problem and he’s just there to help out. It’s not “her debt” or “her finances”, it’s now “our debt” and “our finances”. “We” are going to make a budget (and a debt repayment plan), so that “we” can achieve Goal X. “We” are in this together.
The problem isn’t finances (it almost never is) - the problem is preconceived notions about ourselves and others that color our use and understanding of language.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:26 am
My Husband and I are recently married and attempting to get on track so we don’t have a life long relationship with debt. Just over a year ago we bought a house and then 9 months after that we got married. It is now summer and our friends are getting married left and right, with expenses to us happening! We have adjusted some of our spending over the past 6 months, changing and cutting what we can, but for the most part it has been me telling my husband what is going on, without full disclosure. I am the saver and he is the spender, problem is that he is spending our savings! I have been watching the bills over the past few months and begging him to sit down with me and talk it through and figure out where we are (we have a lot of long short term goals!) and he kept saying we are fine and we know where we are at.
I finally had my breakdown. My Husband and I communicate better then most couples we know, but this had gotten away from our daily talks. Anyway, I told him that we had to sit down and talk, grab all of our bills and see where our numbers are at. My excuse was to find out what changes have happened over the past 6 months with our bills and both of our earnings had changed. I gave him a couple of days to get everything together, as I did to, and we finally sat down. He was shocked at what was going on and not going on with our money! In the end, be patient, give her some warning, and then just make yourselves do it. You will feel so much more in control of your future, and excited to take the next step.
Now if I could only get my husband to read Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover!
July 25th, 2008 at 7:29 am
I think a great way to get her to open up about money is to watch the Suze Orman show every week. Even if you don’t agree with everything she says, the majority of the callers are women asking for help with the very issues that Hal’s wife is dealing with.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:29 am
I sort of have the same issue with my wife, although I am making progress. She used to be in debt and behind, but I essentially have taken over her bills and now almost all of her cards are paid off and she has not missed a payment in a few years.
Only issue I have is keeping her spending under control. What I do now is just tell her the things we WON’T be able to do if she keeps spending money on extra things. That helps to bring her back to reality.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:40 am
Like Mary above, and like the other article about how to stop fighting about finances, I think you should reconsider your approach. When my husband and I got married, I discovered that I enjoy managing our joint finances. I had read about having regular “meetings” to keep him in the loop, so I wanted to do that. Our first meeting - a few weeks after the honeymoon - was really productive: we looked at our new combined debt (almost all of it was mine), checked out both of our credit reports, made some savings goals, etc.
We’ve only had one more actual meeting since then, in over two years. Why? Because for us, the “meetings” are overly formal. My husband found the idea of a monthly or quartlerly meeting to be annoying, and I think the idea of him showing up to it empty-handed and me walking in with a stack of spreadsheets had the inadvertent effect of making it look like I think I’m better than him.
What we’ve come up with is a modest weekly cash allowance for each of us, separate “envelope” systems for personal fun spending, and an agreement that if either of us is planning to spend more than X amount on something we’ll check in with the other. It’s worked for us, and it’s resulted in frequent, informal “mini-meetings” on a fairly regular basis.
One of the things I’ve learned from our finances is that HOW we communicate about them are as important as what we’re talking about. The two of you need to be clear with each other about what you want and how you want to discuss finances. I don’t think your marriage is doomed - you obviously want it to work. But I do think a counselor might help you both figure out how to talk about money, and why your wife doesn’t want to discuss it.
Good luck!
July 25th, 2008 at 7:41 am
But what I realized, slowly, was that I had a bad relationship with money in my head. When I would attack him for being cheap, it was really because I was being defensive about my lack of discipline when it came to spending money on things. I was never one to make huge purchases, but my money did trickle away on clothes, dvds, snacks, entertainment, all little things I didn’t need, or usually even want.
I don’t know if something like this would work in your case, but what my boyfriend did was what worked for me. He was understanding when I would get angry at him, and calm. If I accused him of being cheap he would simply ask me if I really thought that was true, which of course, I didn’t. Every time we got paid he would ask me, genuinely interested, if I was sending money home (we were living abroad) or if I was saving. At first I would get defensive about this, thinking it was none of his business, but it started my brain going. “Maybe I SHOULD be saving… I am making way more than I need to live on.” Eventually I asked him how much money HE had saved…
What he told me really floored me. I couldn’t believe how far ahead of me he was. I didn’t have any savings at all, AND I had debt, and here he was about 10k in the black and both at the age of 24, both with college degrees. Knowing that someone with basically the same background and opportunities as me was in such better shape than me finally made that click happen in my brain, and I haven’t looked back since.
Don’t lecture, don’t be fatherly, but I think it can definitely help to lead by example and show genuine support and excitement for any steps forward, however small, your wife makes. My boyfriend also offered to match any payments I made toward my debt. Being completely “independent” I adamantly refused, but his offer really showed me how much he wanted to help me and encouraged me to pay off my debts as soon as possible.
Good luck!
July 25th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Thank you to everyone who is emphasizing that the blame game is not constructive, and that telling Hal he shouldn’t have married her- well that’s just mean.
As a fairly newly-wed who is the one up to my ears in debt- it’s oppressive. You’re constantly aware of it, and feeling guilty about getting into the whole mess whenever you dwell on it for too long. And my husband and I have seperate finances because I absolutely refuse to saddle him with my mistakes- and because yes, I am slowly but surely pulling out of it.
My advice- don’t go into it trying to fix anything, making suggestions about situations she hasn’t given you the details on. When she complains, ask if there is anything you can do to help. If the money is available, say that since you love her and want to do this together, perhaps the two of you could start paying, say, her student loans out of the joint account. Like other people have said, try to involve her more in the joint account- it will give the two of you the opportunity to talk about your financial viewpoints without it being “her problem”.
Obviously I can only say what would work for me- but her defensiveness and head-in-the-sand approach sound very, very familiar. I wish you all the luck and love in the world.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:56 am
My spouse hates talking about money. I find that I can make financial decisions for the both of us unilaterally and he’ll go along with them, but if I try to discuss anything with him first he gets angry or shuts down. He may as well be putting his hands over his ears and yelling LALALALALALA!
We did discuss our finances before we got married, by the way. A difference in attitudes toward finance doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker. I’ve come to realize that my husband lives for the moment and avoids making decisions for as long as possible. I like to stay flexible myself, so I do the planning for the both of us. When the time comes we’re prepared for wherever life takes us. He maintains some sense of control and I maintain my sense of security. Ultimately, he appreciates my financial discipline and knows we’re better off for it.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Mary has the best advice so far-!!
People come into marriage from such different backgrounds–my husband came from
“frugal,-saving,-no-vacation-ever-no debts-”
I came from “work hard,pray hard,play hard”-
in other words, there should be some rewards for all that hard work and saving you do–sadly, my husband and I still do not
see Eye-to-eye on financial issues, but we have been married 38 years and love each other very much-!!! we have raised 4 healthly, loving, college-educated, family
and God oriented sons, and are now saving
trying to build a financial nestegg so we can retire—Since I insist on buying un-needed gifts for our 11 granchildren, and
engaging in expensive hobbies as scappbooking and internet searching, we are still at odds in the finacial department-!!
My husbands idea is to save all our money for a rainy day—he really never goes on a vacation except his own backyard. He does
get occasional men gifts, like a recent John
Deere rider (we have an acre) and has a large concrete driveway, which was “neccessary”-!! The only solution that
works for us is to have separate accounts
and each be responsible for agreed upon items–and (REFRAIN from questioning spouse
from their agreed on purchases that we still disagree the necessity of!!!)
I have items like the computer/phone/internet/cell or we couldn’t have them—”we don’t really need to pay those expenses for the next 20 years when we retire, do we?” “yes, and I will use my SS to do it-!!!” So if you continue to love each other, you can work through the tension somehow–but never just blame one partner for these “financial issues” !!
July 25th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Wow - everyone is sort-of freaking out here. I understand that since we’re reading this blog we are probably the more financially responsible people in our relationships but I’ve never seen a couple where everyone started on the exact same page with money so this is not the end of the world.
I have to disagree with going to a financial advisor as the first step. If I’m the wife I would see this as people trying to gang up on me.
Hal should first look at how he relates to his wife with money. Is he demeaning? Does he complain? Does he make her feel stupid or bad?
Based on my own experiences with a husband who wasn’t interested in $ in the least here is what I would recommend:
Ask your wife for help with something financial. This way she gets to play the expert and you are in the other position. Also it’s hard to refuse someone who asks for your help. Make it something easy and fun. “Honey I was hoping you could help me with something. I’m really in a bind and can’t decide what to do. Do you think we should put our tax refund into savings? pay off debt? put toward vacation fund? It’s totally stressing me out and I was hoping you could help me make a decision - I know it’s me just being crazy but sometimes having to make all the financial decisions really stresses me out.” Then (and this is important) do whatever she suggests (even if it is not what you are planning). This gives her some power over money and can be the starting point for harder conversations - “I just don’t know how to pay off our debt”
I personally believe most money issues are really control issues. Imbalance of power in a relationship is never good.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:11 am
I’m definitely going to have to agree with everyone else who stressed the importance of a budget. While tracking and allotting money is important for anyone, it is doubly important for people with a poor attitude towards spending.
Much like the snowball effect for paying off debt. Get her to take baby steps and she’ll quickly see the ease and power of a good budget.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:14 am
I like several of the ideas above, including the notion of some sort of counseling. But one has to be careful with that. You don’t want to say, “We should have counseling because you can’t control money.” It ought to be couched in terms of something completely different.
And while a lack of control may be the cause of the financial problems in the marriage, it does sound like Hal’s wife has problems with compulsive spending. (He says that she’s frugal when she shops, but that she shops a lot.) I’m not sure how to address that. My own battle with compulsive spending was only won when I reached a point at which I felt completely overwhelmed and realized I had to turn my financial life around. I suspect that most compulsive spenders have to reach that point before being able to make a change.
Great discussion, as always.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Wow, you have a lot of good advice. Most of mine is probably going to suck, but just in case it doesn’t:
The “third party” idea could be a good one because she may be more willing to listen to others than to you about this topic. But it doesn’t have to be a therapist or a priest. Even just turning on the Suze Orman show by yourself may expose her to a third party. Or you could read and talk about a good book like “Your Money or Your Life.”
If she’s feeling defensive, that’s rough, and she’s probably become pretty sensitized to even the slightest hint that you may be talking about her finances. So if you can think of a way to approach the issue from a seemingly unrelated direction, that might help. For example:
* You could bring up problems you’re having with your finances and ask for her help (as already suggested) or tell her what you’re thinking about doing to fix them.
* Talking about long-term goals (that cost money) (as already suggested) can also fit in this category.
* Talking about someone whose finances inspired you might be useful.
* Telling her about people who started with a much worse problem than she has and are in much better shape now may show her that things don’t have to be hopeless.
* You could talk about sacrifices you’re making in some areas to be able to be in good financial shape. Like, “That is my favorite car ever. But if I got one, then I wouldn’t be able to afford …. And my car really does work perfectly fine. I did get the Matchbox version so I can still stare at it sometimes.” Or any kind of financial decision that’s difficult for you.
* If she’s discussing a purchase or goal with you, ask her to think about other options before making a decision. Sometimes people don’t know what options are available or it doesn’t even occur to them to consider other options. If you can figure out what need or desire you’re addressing, you may be able to get creative in finding other ways to meet that need. Like if I’m buying nice clothes so I don’t feel inferior to my co-workers, maybe I should get a mentor or take a class in something that will help me to a better job or try to get more work done at work instead.
About shopping a lot - maybe you can develop some (non-shopping) hobbies together that will take up some of the time she would normally be shopping. There really are a lot of fun, exciting opportunities in the world. You might want to check out local clubs, informal classes, pick-up games, hiking trails, camping grounds, etc. Is there a hobby of hers she’s not doing because you won’t join her? Consider trying that out, just in case it turns out you could like it after all. (It’s a lot easier to like borderline things when you’re with an enthusiast who loves you!)
July 25th, 2008 at 8:26 am
1) Get her too go to a Dave Ramsey event with you. If she doesn’t want to go then either ask her to go as a gift to you for some holiday or offer it as a trade where she goes to the event with you and in return you do something she’s been wanting you to do.
2) Force the conversations. I don’t even understand the “she refuses to talk about it” thing. There is no subject that my partner gets to avoid talking to me about, because I won’t drop the subject until it’s resolved.
3) Stop managing all of the finances and insist that it be done as a team. Sure, you can keep doing the detailed and mechanical stuff (writing checks, etc.). But, you can’t continue a system where you do all of the managing, controlling and planning. She’s only going to want to change if she’s invested in your future financial goals and if she can start to see and understand how her actions now can make a positive impact on the debt and on your financial future as a couple.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Before we got married, my wife and I weren’t on the same page. She wasn’t in as much trouble as a lot of people her age get into, but she had a lot of student loan debt, car debt, and not much in the bank account. She wasn’t in the worst situation, but it could have been better too. She didn’t know the way out and everyone around her was saying, “Well, I’ll always be in debt anyway,” and “it’s not like any of us are ever going to be millionaires anyway,” so she’d kind of resigned herself to that mentality.
Then my church had a speaker come in whose presentation promised to tell us how to pay off all our debt quickly, within about 7 years. I asked her if she would go with me to listen to his presentation, and she did. One thing he said really got through to her. He said paying interest on things is like renting them.
She was living in an apartment, so rent was a very familiar concept. And here this guy was, giving a plan so that you wouldn’t have to make monthly payments to anyone except the utility companies. She liked what she was hearing.
We got married about six months after that. The presentation was four years ago. Today we own our vehicles and our house outright. We owe something on her student loans still, but those can be gone in another 12-24 months, depending on what else happens between now and then. The interest rate is really low, so the need isn’t quite as urgent.
I’m not saying it’s been easy. There were definitely times when she’d look at what everyone else was doing and get jealous. We had the “we’re working so hard and have nothing to show for it” discussion several times. But we hung in there. We still don’t have as much as all the other people around us, but we have more than some, and we own what we do have outright.
So if you have an opportunity to go together to hear a financial speaker, I would recommend doing that. Ask her to go, with an open mind. It could very well be that something he says will give her the aha! moment she needs.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:39 am
My daughter has a 2 yr. old and a 1 yr. old and is pregnant w/baby #3 - due in Feb. For 3 yrs. she has lived w/her husband’s in-laws, cheerfully, making the best of it, in cramped conditions, thinking that her husband was saving $ for them to get their own place. She turned over all the finances to him as a lot of young brides do. Turns out he was $60,000 in debt when she married him; she thought it was $30,000. She actually gave him $50,000 (money she saved while working), thinking he would use it to pay off a $30,000 car they bought. Long story short - he did not do that. 3 years later all of this has come out after she continually pressed him about it. Instead he paid off a 24% interest rate credit card he had and bought a boat! After 3 years they have 0 in their savings account! $500 car payments. And he told her they are actually $5,000 short each year, but during the year he pays it off. It gets worse because he researches online every night bigger boats that he wants to buy, and a truck to haul the boat! She is leaving him and moving in with me! She will be here in 2 weeks w/the kids. What else can she do? She is an RN and even though 2 months pregnant can get hired at a hospital here. She said she can’t even cry about it. The disappointment, etc. is just too great. His parents don’t know that he is an out of control spender, or that he was $60,000 in debt. He puts everything on one of his charge cards and they think that he pays them off. He’s an electrical engineer. The family took his mother out to dinner recently, and the bill was $300 and her husband paid for it. My daughter said he even sends in $300 a month to his alumni - she said he can’t say no. I’m just trying to come to grips with it all - this has all been unfolding just within a couple of days.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I wonder if there is any way he could get her to read a book like Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover? He could suggest she read it, but would she? Perhaps he could read it and make very positive comments and leave the book sitting around hoping she might pick it up. Or he could read parts of it to her like couples do when they are sitting around reading the paper and commenting on it (well this couple does that, I assume others do).
But it is hard to get your spouse to talk about money if there is no interest in it. I have a completely apathetic spouse. He has no spending problems he just doesn’t care about money. He is the sole bread-winner in the family and does quite well, but he’d just as soon have thousands of dollars sitting in a no-interest checking account rather than sit down and figure out what to do with it. In my case I just took the bull by the horns and did it, but with apathy you have no opposition and that makes it easier. Hal’s case is different - he’s working on changing behaviors. Its almost more of a psychological problem then a financial one.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Hoo boy! My wife will talk about money. I just can’t seem to get her to stick to any kind of financial management plan. Her financial common sense is like a feather on the wind. I’ve tried everything except divorce! I’m only half kidding. . .Anyway, I’m sure that this guy loves his wife dearly, but he simply married wrong. There is only one answer for that, and I won’t go there. And I definitely think giving his wife more control is not the answer to his predicament. 1) When she was single and in control of her finances, she obviously didn’t do a very good job of it. He should maintain the control that he has, and if she dosen’t want to be a team player, simply cut her out of the loop. Do what ever needs to be done without any input from her what so ever. If she dosen’t like it, then her only other option is. . . 2) Change her immature attitude. She should be grateful that she has someone that is willing to stay with her, let alone marry her in the first place, in spite of her lack of financial common sense. She needs to grow up and stop being combative and uncooperative, learn how to manage money, and if not, allow her husband to continue managing their finances. To continue with her current attitude is to purposely sabatage her marriage.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:46 am
I agree that Hal should not be derided for still marrying his wife even knowing about all these issues beforehand. It shows that he loves her very much that he is willing to take it on and try to help her out of her situation. That said, I don’t believe that it’s beneficial for either of them or the dynamic of the relationship for him to be her financial Savior. She needs to learn how to help herself or else this issue will surface for the rest of their partnership.
What has worked with my partner and I has been to set large goals together - in 5 years my husband would like to open his own business and we would like to have a child. Hopefully home-ownership will happen within the next 10 years. Once we had our goals in mind and a reasonable time frame to meet them, there was an incentive to really understand our current situation and what we needed to do to get to the end line.
Also, I think that others are likely right - she is probably letting her fear/embarrassment come out as anger and frustration. The best bet is to help her build her confidence that SHE can fix her mistakes with his help. Offer to help, don’t get too pushy or threatening, stay calm and kind, but let her know that she can do it. Maybe the big picture is much too big for her at the moment. Offer to discuss just one debt (maybe start with a smaller debt or store credit card) and help her set up a plan to pay it off and cancel it. Knowing that she can take care of one debt may help her to feel confident to look at all of them.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:47 am
This situation reminds me a bit of my parent’s marriage. Whenever you bring up an issue (not necessarily money) with one of them, they get angry and/or defensive. Interestingly, my mother cannot talk to my dad without him getting angry - but I can. However, I cannot talk to my mom without her getting defensive.
I think a lot of this has to do with control and approach. In a lot of relationships, one person seems to have more control than the other. With my parents, it’s my dad who dominates. He’s more aggressive and critical (he doesn’t even really realize this). My mother, however, is emotional; she dislikes ‘contention’ and tries to avoid it. So whenever they talk, my dad dominates the conversation and my mom feels like she’s being steamrolled.
When I try to talk to my mom, I try to be open & supportive. However, my mom is so used to feeling steamrolled, that she instantly goes on the defensive - it’s an ingrained habit at this point. She also has relatively more control, so she uses the opportunity to dominate the situation for once - but not with logical arguments like my dad - it’s with some sort of an emotional guilt trip. In order to talk to her about anything that might possibly improve her life, I have to set aside the time to go through an extended counseling session about her life’s frustrations & emotional insecurities. I have to pick my words carefully & watch my tone of voice VERY carefully. I often have to ask her to tell me what my tone of voice sounds like before she realizes that I’m not being critical or trying to ‘tear her down’(which is what her natural feeling is whenever someone brings up an issue with her). With my mother, there is an emotional minefield to navigate and a habitual feeling of being steamrolled and criticized to overcome before you can make any progress. And I have to start all over each time I talk with her because she has so many back issues to deal with and because in the meantime dealing with my dad has set her back into her old defensive ways, erasing any progress I’ve made toward setting up an open communication pattern.
My dad also has emotional issues & insecurities, but he tries to hide his emotions, so it’s not as apparent. He’s also very logical, so that’s the easiest path to talking with him. I can talk to him because again, I try to be open and supportive without judging or bringing up emotional pleas. First, I pick a time when he’s not already in a bad mood. Then I stay calm, affirm when he’s frustrated with my mother, and give the reasons why X would be a good thing to consider. And if I strike an emotional chord with him & he gets aggressive or angry, I affirm that ‘yes, Y is frustrating/difficult/important’, but Z reason is why it concerns me’. He usually calms down after I validate his concerns & from there it’s pretty easy to have an open conversation so long as I remain calm, honest, and non-critical. (This is also assuming I don’t use vocabulary that he associates with a professional councilor, such as those famous ‘I feel’ statements because then he feels like I’m talking down to him. It’s much more effective to say ‘it frustrates me when you do X’ than ‘I feel frustrated when you do X’. This may not be true with other people, but for some reason it is an issue with my father.)
Granted, I’m an outside observer to my parent’s problems, so it’s easy for me to approach them as an objective, outside councilor. I’m not the one who’s so tied up in the relationship that I can’t see or separate myself from my history of poor communication and bad habits. I’ve noticed that while my parents can’t seem to talk to each other about important issues face to face productively, the situation often changes when they are not communicating about sensitive issues face to face. They have an easier time working through charged issues over the phone or via letter (such as a letter slipped into the other’s lunch bag).
Other posters have mentioned that talking about the positives and about shared goals is a good starting point - I agree because it helps with creating a non-judgmental atmosphere. Setting up a meeting can also be a good approach, but often even getting the other person to agree to a meeting can be difficult. If so, a hand written note where you can pick your words carefully may be useful. (For instance, something like, ‘I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. I want to know what your dreams are and how to make them happen. Why don’t we give sometime to think about them and then share ideas later this week?’)
July 25th, 2008 at 8:54 am
My wife and I went through this last summer…
I think that I have to be very careful about coming across to her as controlling and critical. If I may suggest a 2-step process I basically learned listening to Dave Ramsey:
1. Get on the same page.
2. Everything else
Step 1. Turn off the TV. Get on your knees in front of your wife, look her in the eyes, and tell her how much you love her. Sincerely, with details. Tell her how important the money issue is to you, and that her unhappiness and tension scares you, and you don’t want to see her being scared. Tell her you’re don’t want to be critical, or judgmental, or be her Dad. You want this to be something you do together, to build a future full of the dreams you share.
Keep this in mind: It’s not about convincing her to do things your way. You will have to make sacrifices here, too, and find a middle ground. If she won’t buy into what you’re doing as a family, it will never happen.
And change your language. It’s not “my wife’s financial situation.” It WAS “my fiancee’s financial situation,” but now it’s “our financial situation.” It’s not you managing the money, because management implies decision-making. You can implement, but you two are co-owners of everything in your finances, even pre-marital debt.
Oh, and Step Two is whatever you decide to do next. But Step Two doesn’t matter, until Step One is done. Don’t worry about Step Two until you get there. Don’t even bring up Step Two, or you’ll see her shut right down. Just concentrate on opening a door to communicate together.
Oh, and give her lots of love, lots of positive reinforcement when she makes baby steps in the right direction, and say lots of prayers. That never hurts!
July 25th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I remember that even when I was broke, I could still shop a lot. But in the end it doesn’t matter if it’s $1 store or Saks Fifth Avenue, if you don’t need it, it’s still bleeding money away.
Maybe the dollar store a little less than Saks, the principle is the same.
Maybe she needs new hobbies? A lot of people shop out of boredom. Since I’ve been into gardening, I shop a lot less. I have a ‘gardening budget’ to keep me going in my low-cost hobby. I also like to read. I set myself a book budget and anything else above that comes frome the library. If I splurge and buy a book at Barns & Nobles, that’s it for the month. Conversely, if I go to Goodwill and get more books for the month, that’s *still* all I’m allowed.
Part of that goes back to budgeting.
I agree, JD, that the counseling should be couched as something else. Of course I don’t know her, but a lot of people with a tendency towards spending a lot of money tend to be unhappy or unfulfilled elsewhere in their lives.
Just my nickel.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:15 am
This is a tricky situation. After my husband and I got married, I read Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover and asked Mr. Sam to read it as well (he read part, not all). I wanted to work the plan and got Mr. Sam on board but it took some time. We had $55,500 in debt, most of it was Mr. Sam’s debt, some was shared and a small part was mine. But, after marriage I decided that like our income, any debt should be treated as joint (some will differ on that one) because our finances were intertwined. Mr. Sam was not crazy about the idea of me paying off “his” debt, but once I came up with a plan to do so and he saw the plan was working he came around.
So, what to do in this situation? Can you have a general discussion about joint financial goals before getting into discussions about budget or debt? Maybe take my approach and read a book that works for you and ask your wife to read it as well (or watch Dave Ramsey’s t.v. program) to get her thinking about moving past the debt. I assume your wife doesn’t want to share the details of her debt because she is worried about you judging her. So don’t judge her or the debt.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Now that I’ve read the comments, a couple of follow up points.
While Mr. Sam was the one with a lot of debt when we got married (biggest debt was a student loan for his MBA) I was the spender. And while I didn’t keep up with the Joneses, I had a lot of peer pressure from my co-workers and friends. So how did I go from being a spender to a saver, I read Total Money Makeover and decided that I wanted to live my life differently. So, how is your wife going to go from being a spender to a saver she has got to make that choice herself. You can help her by involving her in the family budgeting, working on a joint financial goal (even saving up for a vacation or a big purchase might help her see that saving is easier than she things). Finally, if its important to you and you have expressed that to her (using “I” statements) than it should be important to her. Where and when does she spend, can you help her change those habits by engaging in different activities? We also have a $300 rule, anything over $300 has to be discussed and agreed to before it can be purchased (even if purchased from our allowance money).
July 25th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Quite honestly, one major appeal of my wife was that she had her finances in control. If she had not had her finances under control, that would have been a deal-breaker for me. Bad habits are really hard to break, and a couple really needs to be on similiar pages when it comes to finances.
I think you probably need an intermediary, be it a counselor, PFA, or psychologist, at this point.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Last post, also before Mr. Sam and I bought a house together (which we did 2 years before we got married) we had a financial summit. We each came armed with a copy of our credit report, FICO score and a list of all debts, assets and information re: compensation. All of my friends thought it was the most unromantic meeting ever, but it set the tone for our financial relationship. Once you have put all your cards on the table its a lot easier to hve open and frank communication. I highly recommend a financial summit before any joint purchase or marriage.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:36 am
I just have to chime in here, A couple of people have mentioned that separate accounts are a bad idea…… I have to disagree…. My wife and I have had separate accounts for 7 years now, and we have never had an issue. Like J.D. says all the time… do what works for you.
By having separate accounts we each have Control over our money, and no one feels like they do not have any control. What we have done is split the bills, so that she pays phone, internet, tv, and I pay electric, water, etc…
I would do what works for you, but I would not rule out separate accounts..
ian
July 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Hal, have you considered writing her a letter?
Maybe ask her to respond in kind?
Is there one thing that bothers you and you feel it intereferes with your life? Are you stressed knowing that the loans are in default? Medical bills are unpaid? Are you worried about her carrying this burden alone?
Maybe you could offer to take one item off her plate and into the joint accounts that you pay off together. Emphasize that lots of couples get rid of debts like student loans and medical debts together like these all the time. Just because the she brought these debts to the marriage doesn’t necessarily mean she they are just hers now to pay off alone. It might make sense for both of you to pay them off together. Maybe she hasn’t considered that.
Remind her that she contributes in a myriad of other ways to the marriage right now and that you love her unconditionally.
This might give her some space without having to respond immediately and in person. It might give her a chance to think about what she wants and needs or what she might be willing to accept help for.
Her response might take time. Appreciate any small steps or responses. She’s obviously been stuck deep in the debt pool for a while now and
it might take her a while to get conscious about how to move forward.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am
This is hard because she’s been on the defense for a long time, and I know how she feels and it might even be harder than the husband imagines right now. This is not an easy situation.
Like JD always says, money is mental, not just math.
Like Wife, I have been in a similiar situation where the last time I remember having a positive net worth was when I was 18 years old before my first day of college. After that student loan debt gave birth to credit card debt which gave birth to lots of stress that in the end turned into medical bills which turned into more credit card debt! Augh!
I even dug myself out of the hole, and then dug an all new whole for myself again, just as deep but even more embarrassing because I had not learned my lesson.
I can tell you that I would be on the defensive too no matter how gently it is brought up. That has nothing to do with Husband, that has everything to do with the shame, stress, and embarrassment that we all hide under big credit card balances.
I think a goal and reward system is probably the best bet. For her, rewards may be easier to come up with than goals. Husband can say, wow, that’s a great reward, how hard do you have to work to receive that reward? And let that help you reach goal-setting. This is sort of backwards, but should get her out of the defensive… scoring points is offense’s job, so get her on offense and get her excited however possible.
Sometimes it feels like the debt makes you a smaller, weaker person, and it is easy to lash out at the big strong people that “try to help” and make us feel even smaller. That is the hard thing about this.
My fiance has a great financial situation, as compared to mine, and disclosing debt to him was really hard for me. Especially when I had to say that my student loan debt wasn’t $10 or $11 thousand, but the two added together! His eyes got big. He has never made me feel small, but my debt does.
The best thing you can do is over-remind her of your love for her and how much you appreciate her being honest and upfront with you about her situation… and then tell her that you’d like to keep the dialogue open now that you’re married and your financial lives (intentional or not) are now one. (They just are. No matter how the bank accounts are set up, the financial matters are intertwined, it is just how complicated or simple you want it to be.)
We’re in this together, we’re on the same team, etc., these are all things that she won’t believe until she’s heard them once for every dollar she owes.
If you are the more financially savvy one (obviously), then you might be better at creating the snowball plan or whatever plan, but let her do things too, even if they are things you normally do. She has to have control somehow, and you have to give her control to get her to realize she’s had the control all along, it is just time to use the control to her advantage instead of feeling disadvantaged forever.
Hope this helps! And flowers fix lots of things, too, just in case defensive turns into ugly!
July 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
And on a side note, the knight in shining armor thing popped into my head. One thing I learned in pre-marital counseling is that SHE controls the emotional thermostat in the relationship. Apparently every time he brings up $$, she spikes the thermostat. This is not good for the climate of the relationship, obviously. And so, this might take some work. My advice would be clean the house, get take out, turn off the TV, and eat her favorite dinner together and tell her that you got her favorite food but you want to bring up a not-favorite subject. But before she has finished her deep breath, I would give her REWARD ONE! She can be rewarded for talking about finances with you without getting upset!!! Get her a massage (or a coupon for you to give one to her yourself, or whatever) or something that is a total treat just for her that she can use to relax. If she wants the reward, she has to choose to hear you out and talk back. This might be a bribe, or the first step in the right direction. It has to START somewhere. And if she sees that you care about HER and what she WANTS and you want to provide her with all her needs and that you’ll really be there to support her instead of force her, I think she’ll really like that. (Cleaning the house will eliminate distractions and create a good, aaahhhh, relaxed feeling. And people always, always are more agreeable after they eat.)
July 25th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Kiss her, love her, make her feel incredibly safe. Understand how much of a failure she might feel, how scared she is of rejection, of how, under all that defensiveness, she might just know it’s all her fault, but she doesn’t want the one person she loves most in the whole world to think less of her.
So my advice? Flirt with her, get her in front of the computer with you, have your arms around her and don’t react to her defensiveness. Constantly reassure her that you love her, that you want to give her more financial freedom, that you just want to help her find solid financial footing.
Let her talk and constantly tell her you understand. Tell her you want to help her organize things. Listen to her freak-out, tell her you understand, tell her you don’t blame her. And then tell her you want to help her make things better. Listen to her excuses, every one, just listen. Don’t contradict a thing. Just listen and understand.
And then, tell her “let’s see if we can put you in a stronger financial position.”
Listen again to all excuses, all defensiveness, because they’re not excuses or defensiveness, they’re fear, maybe even shame, maybe even embarrassment.
It might help if there is one financial goal you guys are excited about. I don’t know: buying a house? Moving to Maui at 50? Something positive, something that will give her a light at the end of the tunnel.
But mostly, unending patience and compassion will get you through it. It doesn’t matter so much what plan you do, just that you help her through it with as much love, compassion, and patience that you possess.
July 25th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Hi, I didn’t read the rest of the 50 comments here yet, but I just wanted to say that I do sympathize with the wife here. I am not saying she is right to do so, but I have been in her place.
I’m in a relationship right now, and even though we do not live together, we do talk about our finances a lot. I’ve been in stupid debt, would spend money on clothes and dining out, amongst other things. When my s/o tried to tell me to get out of debt, and be fiscally responsible, I’d get annoyed and shut myself out.
The reason I did was because I knew he was right and I hated myself for spending too much money and accumulating so much debt. I really didn’t want to hear about it and i was upset that I was being lectured about it. I found eventually I was even hurt about it because I couldn’t control my habits.
I have no more advice to add, but I thought maybe i could at least give insight into why she’d react this way.
July 25th, 2008 at 11:01 am
When I met my fiancee five years ago, his credit card debt was increasing, but now it’s decreasing. He was never against talking about money in general, but it took a long time before we discussed anything specific about our situations. I knew he had some CC debt, but not how much, likewise he knew I had student loans. I think he may have been embarrassed at the amount he owed.
I would attribute the change to something very simple. When I did my budget or checked out my finances, I’d get excited about things. I’d proudly announce things like “I’ve already got all my money for school books next semester.” or “I’m paying my car insurance for the next six months. Did you know how much cheaper it is to do that? It’s awesome!” As I started making more money it evolved to things like “I saved $700 dollars this month.” And then one day he turned to me and said, “I put $700 on my credit card this paycheck” and I replied, “Really? That’s fantastic!!! That’ll make a nice dent!” And just this morning he turned to me and told me how he’d made it to another milestone.
I never questioned him about how the debt got so high and out of control, or what he was doing about it. I was just excited about what I was doing myself and that created a feeling where these were just ‘good things to do’ and saving and paying debts were something to be happy and excited about. I think he started wanting that too and when he gave it a shot I rewarded him by getting really excited for him. I didn’t do any of it on purpose, but it’s created a very open feeling for financial discussions because the other person knows they’ll get encouragement and rewards when they make progress.
So in summary, don’t ambush her and make it unpleasant. Use some positive reinforcement so that she’ll want to change her behavior herself. Lead by example and reward any positive changes. If she complains that her bank account has no money, say something like “Neither does mine, I sent all my extra cash to pay X. But it’s ok, as soon as that’s paid, I’ll have an extra $Y every week and then I can afford to buy a Z.”
July 25th, 2008 at 11:45 am
The first step is to identify what, in her life, is causing her to go defensive. The most common ones are
1) A lack of control, as mentioned. I actually think this is the least likely of them, but it ties into…
2) Facing bad historical decisions and admitting to them.
3) Fear of having to change
4) It’s not ‘her place’ to deal with finances (Don’t bother it with me, you’re the man/husband/thinker/planner/etc)
The most likely two are 2) and 3), from what was described. Once you have done that, you can approach it in a way that will subdue those things.
For example, if 3) is the major issue, it is highly unlikely that it will be easy to reach her by sharing and attempting to make a budget. Doing so would force her to change or face recrimination and she will avoid that at all costs. If 2) is the issue, then giving control to her would force her to also look back on what she had done (as a means for figuring out the present) and she will attempt to avoid it at all costs.
There are two ways that I can think of deal with it, in a general sense. The first is to bulldoze her… and strangely enough, that might actually be the best way. Approaching it from the “This is costing both of us, I’m not happy and I won’t continue in this way” might break down the barriers. This is most effective in the 2) example… the other way is to get outside mediation - counseling, specifically one that has dealt with money in marriage. This will make it more objective and hopefully make her realise that her current behavior has a very high cost. Once she sees that not changing carries a higher cost (security, divorce, retirement, etc) it is more likely for her to be willing to change.
There is one other thing to keep in mind, since it came to me the other day. Marriage is somewhat like a prisoner’s dilemma. The best case for both is to cooperate, at least in the long run. However, each individual will tend to gain by ‘defecting’. In money terms, this means that your spouse is effectively spending/not being responsible, while you are. She gets maximum utility by spending whatever she wants wherever she wants, while you get the least utility, such as paying bills/retirement. Since she enjoys the benefits of your responsibility as much as you do… well, there is no incentive to change.
That is to say, you will absolutely have to convince her to cooperate. The only alternative is a long term sub-optimal life for both of you and an even worse existence for yourself. Or, I suppose, getting a divorce. Don’t underestimate what this will do in the relationship. Money and time are very closely linked - wait, and it will be too late.
Oh, and be sure that when you do approach her, you respect her baggage. She likely feels like she is dragging you guys down. Making it clear that it is her behavior now that is the reason things are going to go down, and not her past, may go a long way to helping communication.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I envy the people whose spouse got on board and now they are rich and debt-free.
My DH will never get on board. He isn’t going to keep track of expenses or follow a budget. He’ll talk as much as I want. But he isn’t going to change. He is a wonderful husband and father in many ways, so I work around it. This is possible because he isn’t a compulsive spender or anything - just careless and unconcerned.
I make sure we are funding our retirement accounts and the kids’ college accounts. We have a regular mortgage, so the house gets paid down. I mostly keep the debt totals going down. So we’ll be OK. But I cast a wistful eye to the people on the other side of the fence who can make agreements and have them followed.
Oh and separate accounts? He had constant check bouncing fees. Putting him in charge of the money? We had to wire our mortgage payment in because he deposited money in the wrong account and the mortgage check bounced. It is really really a good idea for me to keep track of all money matters.
July 25th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
If she’s being defensive and doesn’t want to talk about it, then stop. Leave her alone. Don’t try to help her with her finances unless she asks you. My partner and I have separate finances and a joint account. We pay shared bills with our joint account. But my accounts/debts and whatever are mine. That’s just how I see it. I got my debts paid off, but I did it on my terms, and I got really angry and resentful whenever he tried to talk to me about it. I know he was just trying to help, but I saw it as my problem. I’m someone who highly values my independence, so I have my own finances that I manage. Your wife may see it the same way. You obviously want to help her, but she may not want it, and may feel if you bailed her out, she would lose some of her independence. If you have joint finances that you manage together, great. But I would back off on trying to tell her what to do with her personal debt. Unless she asks you, of course.
This statement here says it all: “…but it seems like she doesn’t want to change it.” I seriously doubt that - no one wants to be stuck in financial quagmire. However, what I read into this is, YOU want to change it. You can’t change her. If she doesn’t want to change it, you can’t make her.
I would suspect the real reason why money and house chores are the leading cause of divorce/breakup is because of one person trying to control or change the other. If one person is financially irresponsible, the other person tries to “fix” it. If one person likes a tidy house and the other isn’t really bothered, then they try to nag the other person to do it.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I see two problems - the money problem, and the communication problem. You can’t fix the money problem without communication, so drop the money issue altogether and just focus on talking about things.
I’d suggest applying the “debt snowball” idea to communication - start with the smallest, quickest improvement, even if it’s not the most urgent one. That will give a positive feeling to both parties and set the stage for MORE improvements. Then once the lines of communication are open, the more difficult subjects (like money) can be brought up.
My advice would be that Hal start not by trying to talk about money, but just openly talking about why it’s an important issue. This affects their relationship… I don’t know any woman who doesn’t like talking about that!!
I also had trouble talking about finances with my new husband, and I would shut down and refuse to talk at all when I got emotionally overwhelmed. We improved after making each other these promises-
-My husband promised that he would not overwhelm me by pushing for more than I could handle, even if it meant that we only discussed one issue at a time and left some things unfinished for later. This was hard for him, because he wanted to talk about everything N-O-W and got upset when I withdrew and refused to participate.
-I promised that if I got emotionally overwhelmed, I would tell him so, and the conversation would STOP until I cooled down and was ready to continue. *** The catch to this was that it was MY responsibility to bring up the issue again when I was ready - I could not use this as an excuse to run away.
Over time and following these rules, we dealt with things pretty well. It’s been three years, and we’re still not perfect, but we work through issues the best we can… and the arguments and tears are thankfully a thing of the past!
It takes effort and sacrifice on both sides. Hal needs to be ready to give things up in order to find a middle ground. And maybe when she sees that he’s willing to sacrifice things, too, then she’ll be more willing to consider making some hard choices herself. This is not something that can be fixed in a day or a weekend, it’s going to take hard work… and a lot of time.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
My fiance was the same. Wouldn’t talk about money at all, because his finances were a mess. I got him to open up 2 ways
1. Showing him that he wasn’t the only one who made financial mistakes, and
2. Making sure he knew absolutely that I didn’t blame or judge him for the mess his finances were in.
I shared with him my past experiences with credit card debt (in college) and how I got out, and I’d make general comments about how hard it was to not get into debt in college (the time when his debt was accrued)
Now that he has his finances in a better state, he is much more open and willing to talk
July 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Cathy:
I would suspect the real reason why money and house chores are the leading cause of divorce/breakup is because of one person trying to control or change the other. If one person is financially irresponsible, the other person tries to “fix” it. If one person likes a tidy house and the other isn’t really bothered, then they try to nag the other person to do it.
I really doubt money really has anything to do with nagging. If it is related, it would come down to one people giving in the relationship and the other taking.
Most of the money issues are because it only takes one person acting irresponsible to undo self sacrifice and long term work of the other. Not to mention than the irresponsible partner will weaken the finances and when bad times come, the stress from not being prepared causes huge damage to the relationship. Especially if there are expectations or hidden surprises. And of course, when the relationship is always under money stress, simply because one person is never responsible and refuses to talk about it/change, the relationship will be constantly strained.
Money is not the same as a tidy house. Money is what lets you keep a house. It’s what lets you eat, and your family eat. It can even be what lets your kids go to college, play sports and so forth. It’s what gives you the freedom to change jobs, to avoid being trapped. The one who is not responsible threatens all of that. It’s easy to ignore that reality because most of us are secure in the present.
Money management is a requirement for marriage and both must take part. The household is like a business - if you want to stay in business, it needs to be done.
July 25th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Finn:
I’ve been a saver all my life. Every dollar I made between 15-25 was put into savings. I had a financially irresponsible boyfriend after college who I thought I could help manage his finances. Instead of helping him up, he dragged me down into $35,000 worth of credit card debt. I don’t blame him because I could not change the fact he was an irresponsible spender. That is not within my ability to change. The only person who I can change is me. What I should have done short of “wishing I’d never met him” was protected my own finances. I never should have allowed my credit cards to be used for joint expenses. The only smart thing I did was protect my savings account. When we split, I had enough money to leave and start over again.
When I went into my current relationship, my debt was mine. I didn’t talk about it, didn’t expect any help with it. We have a joint account that we pay our finances from. I agree with you - joint finances are a partnership. We manage our joint expenses as a team. The only thing I see changing in the future as we meld more of our finances is that our joint expenses will grow. But I will always maintain my own retirement account and savings. It gives me security to know that I will be able to take care of myself should the worst happen.
If I want to buy new clothes, I pay for it from my personal account. If he wants an iPod, he pays for it from his personal account. If we want a new stove, we pay for it from our joint account. If one of us gets laid off from work, the other will pick up the living expense until the other gets settled. This is our agreement and partnership, but we’re both on the same page.
One thing I was determined to do when I was in debt was to NEVER let it become my partner’s burden.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Commenters who’ve suggested a neutral third party might be on the right track.
Trying to put myself in her shoes, I’d probably feel embarrassed and judged–even if my husband was as sensitive as possible.
If you just want to start planting the seeds–and let her sow them in her own time–I’d suggest starting a conversation about the future that has nothing to do with money. Ask her what she pictures as an ideal day in 20 years, in 50 years. Talking about your dreams and ideal lifestyle can open up that conversation about your future goals in a purely positive way.
I’m sure she’s intelligent enough to understand that today’s financial behaviors might be putting those goals farther away than she’d like. If it’s something she really wants, I would imagine that would be a stronger motivator than the guilt she might be living with now.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
… for richer, for poorer …
Pull out the wedding album and tell her how beautiful she is, then and now, and how lucky you are and ask her what her favorite memory is or anything to remind her of the strength of your love and relationship….
Tell her that one of the things you love about her is her honesty, even when it is hard. Tell her you know that it wasn’t easy to come clean about the debt, but that you admire her strength and the fact that she didn’t hide it strengthens your trust and faith in her.
Ask for her trust and faith in return. (She might raise an eyebrow here…)
Tell her you simply need her help because you don’t know how to talk to her about strengthening the financial relationship that you both now share. Tell her you want to support her and that you married her in debt, but you want her to know the joy of being debt-free because you love her.
The most important thing is that the control is given to her, not taken away from her. If she is restricted from shopping, OHMIGOODNESS, only bad will follow. But, if she agrees to the 1 in/ 1 out rule and sells a gently used shirt when she buys a new one, then that is something she will consider (hmmm… do I have another shirt that I want to get rid of? Maybe I don’t need this new one…) when making purchases because she is in control.
OR
Maybe you suggest switching roles to try out one another’s shoes. Have her pay the house bills out of whatever account (or set up a joint account for household bills only or whatever is easiest for both), while you sort out the bills that need to be paid. There are credit counseling places that will do this for a fee of like $20 a month or whatever, but if you or she do it together, the habits will be good habits in the future. The key is to make her feel special. Special as in one of a kind, never going to be replace-able, only one for you special - not special ed. She didn’t get into debt because she’s dumb, she got into debt for a number of reasons and in the end, you married the woman she became after all that happened to her. She is beautiful as is. But her money could use a make-over. Try to get her to think of it that way. A make-over for her credit history. Tell her you need her help to make it *pretty*.
I’m only sort of kidding. The mood has to get lighter so she doesn’t feel down in the dumps everytime the D-word is brought up. Really, really, really, important that she gets many, many, well-placed thoughtful compliments to make her feel good because the debt feels bad.
In some ways every time Husband brings this up, it is like half ripping off a band-aid. OUCH! EWW! Gross! Yucky gross wound. If she then freaks out and storms off, sticks band-aid right back on, then that wound will not heal. You have to KISS IT MAKE IT BETTER! Gentle, healing hands! You’re ok, I’m ok, we’re all going to be ok! Wash out that wound, apply antibiotic ointment, let it breathe, re-bandage if necessary but keep checking on it! This is all about bring it out into the open.
She doesn’t want to talk about it, she wants to do something about it (she may or may not KNOW that) - so action is a good game plan… Let’s hunt for statements! Let’s make a pile of bills!
And telling her that she is smart everytime she talks to you intelligently about finances and money, followed by a kiss - big win.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
My parents showed me that money is power by trying to control each other with it as well as us 4 kids. What I and my 3 younger sisters all learned is that if you don’t have any, you are at the mercy of those who do, even if it is your own spouse or parent. So, each of us girls did everything we could to try to get financially free from our parents — including getting into personal debt (in my case over $100,000 of student loans and credit cards to finance my college and law school education)! I’m not sure if I jumped out of the frying pan into the fire or just jumped into another frying pan. But, it still felt better to owe Uncle Sam and the banks instead of unquestioning loyalty and slavery to my parents forever.
How we choose to use our money is as personal as how we satisfy (or not) our most basic sexual desires. If we choose to share our lives and the most intimate of physical acts with a significant other, we must be willing to at least talk about how we are currently handling our finances. The past might be the past and not much value to discuss now (as discussing past lovers can be more harmful than do much good). But, if you have some health issues as a result of past relationships, then for sure any risks to your partner must in all good conscious be shared. The same with huge debts and lingering spending issues that must affect your partner’s financial health, too! : )
July 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I have to agree that couples counseling sounds like a good idea. I don’t really know how seperate finances work (ours have always been joint), but I would think her financial situation could impact his at some point, if she really doesn’t care for it. He deserves to know and understand her finances for this reason, at least enough to know if they are financially safe.
If there is a control issue (or perceived control issue - maybe he is being reasonable, but she feels controlled anyways), then a counselor can probably help. And if it isn’t a control issue, a counselor might be able to help identify what is actually going on.
July 25th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
As for counseling…
I doubt that is going to happen. Not anytime soon, anyway. Informal conversations with financially savvy (or experienced with their own debt conquered) friends and family might be possible, but the level of stress rises with these conversations, even if they aren’t about HER. If you can’t get her to talk to you… I sort of doubt you can get her talked into talking to you and someone else. Especially if you are going to tell her she is a shop-aholic or something… I just don’t see that happening in reality.
If it does, and it definitely would be a HUGE blessing if it does happen, you have many choices. There are groups. There are counselors and Ph.D.’s. There are clergy (who married you? Did you have pre-marital classes? Maybe the reverand whats-his-or-her-name would love to talk to you and or her… of course they want to see the marriage they created thrive and prosper!), and they are trained to counsel couples.
There are also credit companies, and there is a wide range from bad to good to better, and you’ll want to research what is recommended by your Better Business Bureau. Beware of fees, but keep in mind convenience. If this is something you think is going to stay a hot button topic even if you have your first dialogue, you might want to consider the credit counselor because they figure out the entire snowball thing for you accounting for several variables and they look at your budget and help you work out solutions with the creditors, sometimes even negotiate interest and fees for you, but best of all they have you pay them one payment that they distribute to everyone according to the plan. They might charge a fee, but they are mailing several payments out for you and handling all those due dates for you, and they might get rid of some extra interest or fees for you, too. And they might take away some of the stress from the actual handling of the debt… which might really help the marriage.
But she’ll have to be on board. Maybe the reward, at the end, when it is all paid, is a second honeymoon…
July 25th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
#29 Dana is probably my favorite commentor of the day. That is really awesome. Sounds like a keeper!
July 25th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
OK —
I think the first thing is to give Hal the benefit of the doubt that it is NOT his approach that is making her defensive.
I think there is lots of evidence that she brought a money avoidance issue into the marriage with her. She already had a debt problem and defaulted student loans.
The real question in this story is — WHAT is this woman feeling about money? She probably feels really badly about the situation she’s in, and more than a little powerless. At the same time, she’s probably got some nasty habits that she can’t break.
When I was avoiding my student loans, that was when I was also a serious shopaholic. I shopped to alleviate my stress that I’d never be able to afford anything, which made me psycho-crazy to buy things. One of the scariest things I’ve done is face up to the fact that I couldn’t avoid my student loans/debts anymore.
Counselling definately. But don’t assume Hal’s the bad guy. Maybe he is. But that’s not the real issue here. She came into the marriage with the problem.
July 25th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I’m going to buck the trend here and say don’t get counseling, don’t sugar-coat it, don’t try to approach it gently. Go to your spouse and say “We need to solve this and have a new system put together, and we have to follow it, and we have to agree right now to move forward with this, or else: There’s the door.”
I may sound coarse in saying this, but in reality I am being merciful: if you fail to do this, the end result will be the exact same divorce you’re risking by doing it — except it will happen 3 or 4 years down the road instead of right now, leaving you 3 or 4 years further back from recovery. If your marriage can’t survive an absolutely scathing examination of your monetary situation, then your marriage can’t survive PERIOD. This is one of those issues you won’t be able to compensate for by working around it.
For my part, the wife and I keep the same separate accounts as when we got married, and we split all costs of living. It’s nice because it gives us each very clear indications of where our discretionary income is, and we both save so we’ll both be in good shape down the road… whether together or apart. My student loan debt is my own, and my empty cards don’t hurt me; conversely, my wife’s high credit card balance is her own and her paid-off student loans are a nice boon to her side of the equation.
July 25th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Damn, Mike beat me to it! Moving sucks :O
“Hal” needs to ask himself if he is willing to remain in a relationship with someone who exhibits these behaviors towards money. As some others have said, this isn’t a minor issue, it’s a potential deal-breaker.
Does she work much? I guess she probably does, since he wrote that she has her own account. Just wondering though.
That said, it seems that Hal might be acting a little unfairly here. He knew about this from the jump. Ostensibly he was OK with it. Did he talk about it when they were dating? She was honest about her debt. Why is he only bringing this up now? What motivation does she have to change this behavior?
Also, I’m not sure about where they married or the legal arrangements of their marriage, but if the nuclear option is exercised, isn’t that debt now Hal’s as well? Can any lawyers here comment on this?
JD, I’ll update my email soon.
July 25th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
By my own experience, the only solution to this kind of situation:
Divorce.
Right now I´m willing to have the guts to do such a thing, but I see no future on my relationship either….
July 26th, 2008 at 12:17 am
The question that Hal asked was, ‘Is there anything I can do to have an open dialogue with her about money matters wi