Ask the Readers: How Can I Get My Wife to Talk About Money?
Published on - July 25th, 2008 (by J.D. Roth) Money management can be difficult, even when you’re on your own. Throw a life partner into the mix and things get more complicated. What can you do if you and your spouse just aren’t on the same financial page? Hal recently wrote with a question:
I got married about a year ago to a wonderful girl who is up to her ears in debt, including medical bills and student loans (including federal loans) which have been in default for some time. I did know about this debt before we got married, and I knew it would be quite some time before we’d get her finances back on track.
Here is my issue: whenever I bring up anything financial, whether it’s repaying her loans or other past debts, saving money, setting a budget, etc., she gets very defensive and angry, and refuses to talk about it.
I manage our joint finances, but she has her own bank account that she is in control of, which she never talks about, other than to tell me there is no money in it. I accepted my wife’s financial situation when I married her, but it seems like she doesn’t want to change it.
Is there anything I can do to have an open dialogue with her about money matters without making her defensive?
This is a great question, not just for couples with joint finances, and not just for married couples, but for all couples everywhere. Continued financial conflict can place a severe strain on any relationship.
In January, I shared a guest post from Gather Little by Little, who wrote about how to stop fighting with your spouse about money. This article provides some good tips, though it doesn’t offer any solutions when your partner refuses to talk about money. The comments on that post contain feedback from some people who try to avoid the subject, and from people dealing with reluctant spouses. It seems there are plenty of couples in which one person isn’t willing to discuss money.
I read once that situations like this are sometimes caused by a perceived “lack of control”. The spending partner, or the partner who is unwilling to discuss finances, feels like they do not have control over their finances, nor the couple’s finances. One solution is to find a way to grant them more control.
In this case, Hal manages the couple’s joint finances. It may prove beneficial to include his wife more in the process, to allow her more decision-making power. (Of course, this may not work at all, but it sounds like a reasonable thing to try.)
Do you have experience with a similar situation? Have you been the spouse reluctant to talk about money? Have you been in a relationship in which you could not get your partner to deal with the subject? How did you handle it? What advice can you offer Hal? How can he get his wife to talk about money?
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Hal, have you considered writing her a letter?
Maybe ask her to respond in kind?
Is there one thing that bothers you and you feel it intereferes with your life? Are you stressed knowing that the loans are in default? Medical bills are unpaid? Are you worried about her carrying this burden alone?
Maybe you could offer to take one item off her plate and into the joint accounts that you pay off together. Emphasize that lots of couples get rid of debts like student loans and medical debts together like these all the time. Just because the she brought these debts to the marriage doesn’t necessarily mean she they are just hers now to pay off alone. It might make sense for both of you to pay them off together. Maybe she hasn’t considered that.
Remind her that she contributes in a myriad of other ways to the marriage right now and that you love her unconditionally.
This might give her some space without having to respond immediately and in person. It might give her a chance to think about what she wants and needs or what she might be willing to accept help for.
Her response might take time. Appreciate any small steps or responses. She’s obviously been stuck deep in the debt pool for a while now and
it might take her a while to get conscious about how to move forward.
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This is hard because she’s been on the defense for a long time, and I know how she feels and it might even be harder than the husband imagines right now. This is not an easy situation.
Like JD always says, money is mental, not just math.
Like Wife, I have been in a similiar situation where the last time I remember having a positive net worth was when I was 18 years old before my first day of college. After that student loan debt gave birth to credit card debt which gave birth to lots of stress that in the end turned into medical bills which turned into more credit card debt! Augh!
I even dug myself out of the hole, and then dug an all new whole for myself again, just as deep but even more embarrassing because I had not learned my lesson.
I can tell you that I would be on the defensive too no matter how gently it is brought up. That has nothing to do with Husband, that has everything to do with the shame, stress, and embarrassment that we all hide under big credit card balances.
I think a goal and reward system is probably the best bet. For her, rewards may be easier to come up with than goals. Husband can say, wow, that’s a great reward, how hard do you have to work to receive that reward? And let that help you reach goal-setting. This is sort of backwards, but should get her out of the defensive… scoring points is offense’s job, so get her on offense and get her excited however possible.
Sometimes it feels like the debt makes you a smaller, weaker person, and it is easy to lash out at the big strong people that “try to help” and make us feel even smaller. That is the hard thing about this.
My fiance has a great financial situation, as compared to mine, and disclosing debt to him was really hard for me. Especially when I had to say that my student loan debt wasn’t $10 or $11 thousand, but the two added together! His eyes got big. He has never made me feel small, but my debt does.
The best thing you can do is over-remind her of your love for her and how much you appreciate her being honest and upfront with you about her situation… and then tell her that you’d like to keep the dialogue open now that you’re married and your financial lives (intentional or not) are now one. (They just are. No matter how the bank accounts are set up, the financial matters are intertwined, it is just how complicated or simple you want it to be.)
We’re in this together, we’re on the same team, etc., these are all things that she won’t believe until she’s heard them once for every dollar she owes.
If you are the more financially savvy one (obviously), then you might be better at creating the snowball plan or whatever plan, but let her do things too, even if they are things you normally do. She has to have control somehow, and you have to give her control to get her to realize she’s had the control all along, it is just time to use the control to her advantage instead of feeling disadvantaged forever.
Hope this helps! And flowers fix lots of things, too, just in case defensive turns into ugly!
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And on a side note, the knight in shining armor thing popped into my head. One thing I learned in pre-marital counseling is that SHE controls the emotional thermostat in the relationship. Apparently every time he brings up $$, she spikes the thermostat. This is not good for the climate of the relationship, obviously. And so, this might take some work. My advice would be clean the house, get take out, turn off the TV, and eat her favorite dinner together and tell her that you got her favorite food but you want to bring up a not-favorite subject. But before she has finished her deep breath, I would give her REWARD ONE! She can be rewarded for talking about finances with you without getting upset!!! Get her a massage (or a coupon for you to give one to her yourself, or whatever) or something that is a total treat just for her that she can use to relax. If she wants the reward, she has to choose to hear you out and talk back. This might be a bribe, or the first step in the right direction. It has to START somewhere. And if she sees that you care about HER and what she WANTS and you want to provide her with all her needs and that you’ll really be there to support her instead of force her, I think she’ll really like that. (Cleaning the house will eliminate distractions and create a good, aaahhhh, relaxed feeling. And people always, always are more agreeable after they eat.)
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Kiss her, love her, make her feel incredibly safe. Understand how much of a failure she might feel, how scared she is of rejection, of how, under all that defensiveness, she might just know it’s all her fault, but she doesn’t want the one person she loves most in the whole world to think less of her.
So my advice? Flirt with her, get her in front of the computer with you, have your arms around her and don’t react to her defensiveness. Constantly reassure her that you love her, that you want to give her more financial freedom, that you just want to help her find solid financial footing.
Let her talk and constantly tell her you understand. Tell her you want to help her organize things. Listen to her freak-out, tell her you understand, tell her you don’t blame her. And then tell her you want to help her make things better. Listen to her excuses, every one, just listen. Don’t contradict a thing. Just listen and understand.
And then, tell her “let’s see if we can put you in a stronger financial position.”
Listen again to all excuses, all defensiveness, because they’re not excuses or defensiveness, they’re fear, maybe even shame, maybe even embarrassment.
It might help if there is one financial goal you guys are excited about. I don’t know: buying a house? Moving to Maui at 50? Something positive, something that will give her a light at the end of the tunnel.
But mostly, unending patience and compassion will get you through it. It doesn’t matter so much what plan you do, just that you help her through it with as much love, compassion, and patience that you possess.
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Hi, I didn’t read the rest of the 50 comments here yet, but I just wanted to say that I do sympathize with the wife here. I am not saying she is right to do so, but I have been in her place.
I’m in a relationship right now, and even though we do not live together, we do talk about our finances a lot. I’ve been in stupid debt, would spend money on clothes and dining out, amongst other things. When my s/o tried to tell me to get out of debt, and be fiscally responsible, I’d get annoyed and shut myself out.
The reason I did was because I knew he was right and I hated myself for spending too much money and accumulating so much debt. I really didn’t want to hear about it and i was upset that I was being lectured about it. I found eventually I was even hurt about it because I couldn’t control my habits.
I have no more advice to add, but I thought maybe i could at least give insight into why she’d react this way.
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When I met my fiancee five years ago, his credit card debt was increasing, but now it’s decreasing. He was never against talking about money in general, but it took a long time before we discussed anything specific about our situations. I knew he had some CC debt, but not how much, likewise he knew I had student loans. I think he may have been embarrassed at the amount he owed.
I would attribute the change to something very simple. When I did my budget or checked out my finances, I’d get excited about things. I’d proudly announce things like “I’ve already got all my money for school books next semester.” or “I’m paying my car insurance for the next six months. Did you know how much cheaper it is to do that? It’s awesome!” As I started making more money it evolved to things like “I saved $700 dollars this month.” And then one day he turned to me and said, “I put $700 on my credit card this paycheck” and I replied, “Really? That’s fantastic!!! That’ll make a nice dent!” And just this morning he turned to me and told me how he’d made it to another milestone.
I never questioned him about how the debt got so high and out of control, or what he was doing about it. I was just excited about what I was doing myself and that created a feeling where these were just ‘good things to do’ and saving and paying debts were something to be happy and excited about. I think he started wanting that too and when he gave it a shot I rewarded him by getting really excited for him. I didn’t do any of it on purpose, but it’s created a very open feeling for financial discussions because the other person knows they’ll get encouragement and rewards when they make progress.
So in summary, don’t ambush her and make it unpleasant. Use some positive reinforcement so that she’ll want to change her behavior herself. Lead by example and reward any positive changes. If she complains that her bank account has no money, say something like “Neither does mine, I sent all my extra cash to pay X. But it’s ok, as soon as that’s paid, I’ll have an extra $Y every week and then I can afford to buy a Z.”
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The first step is to identify what, in her life, is causing her to go defensive. The most common ones are
1) A lack of control, as mentioned. I actually think this is the least likely of them, but it ties into…
2) Facing bad historical decisions and admitting to them.
3) Fear of having to change
4) It’s not ‘her place’ to deal with finances (Don’t bother it with me, you’re the man/husband/thinker/planner/etc)
The most likely two are 2) and 3), from what was described. Once you have done that, you can approach it in a way that will subdue those things.
For example, if 3) is the major issue, it is highly unlikely that it will be easy to reach her by sharing and attempting to make a budget. Doing so would force her to change or face recrimination and she will avoid that at all costs. If 2) is the issue, then giving control to her would force her to also look back on what she had done (as a means for figuring out the present) and she will attempt to avoid it at all costs.
There are two ways that I can think of deal with it, in a general sense. The first is to bulldoze her… and strangely enough, that might actually be the best way. Approaching it from the “This is costing both of us, I’m not happy and I won’t continue in this way” might break down the barriers. This is most effective in the 2) example… the other way is to get outside mediation – counseling, specifically one that has dealt with money in marriage. This will make it more objective and hopefully make her realise that her current behavior has a very high cost. Once she sees that not changing carries a higher cost (security, divorce, retirement, etc) it is more likely for her to be willing to change.
There is one other thing to keep in mind, since it came to me the other day. Marriage is somewhat like a prisoner’s dilemma. The best case for both is to cooperate, at least in the long run. However, each individual will tend to gain by ‘defecting’. In money terms, this means that your spouse is effectively spending/not being responsible, while you are. She gets maximum utility by spending whatever she wants wherever she wants, while you get the least utility, such as paying bills/retirement. Since she enjoys the benefits of your responsibility as much as you do… well, there is no incentive to change.
That is to say, you will absolutely have to convince her to cooperate. The only alternative is a long term sub-optimal life for both of you and an even worse existence for yourself. Or, I suppose, getting a divorce. Don’t underestimate what this will do in the relationship. Money and time are very closely linked – wait, and it will be too late.
Oh, and be sure that when you do approach her, you respect her baggage. She likely feels like she is dragging you guys down. Making it clear that it is her behavior now that is the reason things are going to go down, and not her past, may go a long way to helping communication.
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I envy the people whose spouse got on board and now they are rich and debt-free.
My DH will never get on board. He isn’t going to keep track of expenses or follow a budget. He’ll talk as much as I want. But he isn’t going to change. He is a wonderful husband and father in many ways, so I work around it. This is possible because he isn’t a compulsive spender or anything – just careless and unconcerned.
I make sure we are funding our retirement accounts and the kids’ college accounts. We have a regular mortgage, so the house gets paid down. I mostly keep the debt totals going down. So we’ll be OK. But I cast a wistful eye to the people on the other side of the fence who can make agreements and have them followed.
Oh and separate accounts? He had constant check bouncing fees. Putting him in charge of the money? We had to wire our mortgage payment in because he deposited money in the wrong account and the mortgage check bounced. It is really really a good idea for me to keep track of all money matters.
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If she’s being defensive and doesn’t want to talk about it, then stop. Leave her alone. Don’t try to help her with her finances unless she asks you. My partner and I have separate finances and a joint account. We pay shared bills with our joint account. But my accounts/debts and whatever are mine. That’s just how I see it. I got my debts paid off, but I did it on my terms, and I got really angry and resentful whenever he tried to talk to me about it. I know he was just trying to help, but I saw it as my problem. I’m someone who highly values my independence, so I have my own finances that I manage. Your wife may see it the same way. You obviously want to help her, but she may not want it, and may feel if you bailed her out, she would lose some of her independence. If you have joint finances that you manage together, great. But I would back off on trying to tell her what to do with her personal debt. Unless she asks you, of course.
This statement here says it all: “…but it seems like she doesn’t want to change it.” I seriously doubt that – no one wants to be stuck in financial quagmire. However, what I read into this is, YOU want to change it. You can’t change her. If she doesn’t want to change it, you can’t make her.
I would suspect the real reason why money and house chores are the leading cause of divorce/breakup is because of one person trying to control or change the other. If one person is financially irresponsible, the other person tries to “fix” it. If one person likes a tidy house and the other isn’t really bothered, then they try to nag the other person to do it.
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I see two problems – the money problem, and the communication problem. You can’t fix the money problem without communication, so drop the money issue altogether and just focus on talking about things.
I’d suggest applying the “debt snowball” idea to communication – start with the smallest, quickest improvement, even if it’s not the most urgent one. That will give a positive feeling to both parties and set the stage for MORE improvements. Then once the lines of communication are open, the more difficult subjects (like money) can be brought up.
My advice would be that Hal start not by trying to talk about money, but just openly talking about why it’s an important issue. This affects their relationship… I don’t know any woman who doesn’t like talking about that!!
I also had trouble talking about finances with my new husband, and I would shut down and refuse to talk at all when I got emotionally overwhelmed. We improved after making each other these promises-
-My husband promised that he would not overwhelm me by pushing for more than I could handle, even if it meant that we only discussed one issue at a time and left some things unfinished for later. This was hard for him, because he wanted to talk about everything N-O-W and got upset when I withdrew and refused to participate.
-I promised that if I got emotionally overwhelmed, I would tell him so, and the conversation would STOP until I cooled down and was ready to continue. *** The catch to this was that it was MY responsibility to bring up the issue again when I was ready – I could not use this as an excuse to run away.
Over time and following these rules, we dealt with things pretty well. It’s been three years, and we’re still not perfect, but we work through issues the best we can… and the arguments and tears are thankfully a thing of the past!
It takes effort and sacrifice on both sides. Hal needs to be ready to give things up in order to find a middle ground. And maybe when she sees that he’s willing to sacrifice things, too, then she’ll be more willing to consider making some hard choices herself. This is not something that can be fixed in a day or a weekend, it’s going to take hard work… and a lot of time.
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My fiance was the same. Wouldn’t talk about money at all, because his finances were a mess. I got him to open up 2 ways
1. Showing him that he wasn’t the only one who made financial mistakes, and
2. Making sure he knew absolutely that I didn’t blame or judge him for the mess his finances were in.
I shared with him my past experiences with credit card debt (in college) and how I got out, and I’d make general comments about how hard it was to not get into debt in college (the time when his debt was accrued)
Now that he has his finances in a better state, he is much more open and willing to talk
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Cathy:
I would suspect the real reason why money and house chores are the leading cause of divorce/breakup is because of one person trying to control or change the other. If one person is financially irresponsible, the other person tries to “fix” it. If one person likes a tidy house and the other isn’t really bothered, then they try to nag the other person to do it.
I really doubt money really has anything to do with nagging. If it is related, it would come down to one people giving in the relationship and the other taking.
Most of the money issues are because it only takes one person acting irresponsible to undo self sacrifice and long term work of the other. Not to mention than the irresponsible partner will weaken the finances and when bad times come, the stress from not being prepared causes huge damage to the relationship. Especially if there are expectations or hidden surprises. And of course, when the relationship is always under money stress, simply because one person is never responsible and refuses to talk about it/change, the relationship will be constantly strained.
Money is not the same as a tidy house. Money is what lets you keep a house. It’s what lets you eat, and your family eat. It can even be what lets your kids go to college, play sports and so forth. It’s what gives you the freedom to change jobs, to avoid being trapped. The one who is not responsible threatens all of that. It’s easy to ignore that reality because most of us are secure in the present.
Money management is a requirement for marriage and both must take part. The household is like a business – if you want to stay in business, it needs to be done.
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Finn:
I’ve been a saver all my life. Every dollar I made between 15-25 was put into savings. I had a financially irresponsible boyfriend after college who I thought I could help manage his finances. Instead of helping him up, he dragged me down into $35,000 worth of credit card debt. I don’t blame him because I could not change the fact he was an irresponsible spender. That is not within my ability to change. The only person who I can change is me. What I should have done short of “wishing I’d never met him” was protected my own finances. I never should have allowed my credit cards to be used for joint expenses. The only smart thing I did was protect my savings account. When we split, I had enough money to leave and start over again.
When I went into my current relationship, my debt was mine. I didn’t talk about it, didn’t expect any help with it. We have a joint account that we pay our finances from. I agree with you – joint finances are a partnership. We manage our joint expenses as a team. The only thing I see changing in the future as we meld more of our finances is that our joint expenses will grow. But I will always maintain my own retirement account and savings. It gives me security to know that I will be able to take care of myself should the worst happen.
If I want to buy new clothes, I pay for it from my personal account. If he wants an iPod, he pays for it from his personal account. If we want a new stove, we pay for it from our joint account. If one of us gets laid off from work, the other will pick up the living expense until the other gets settled. This is our agreement and partnership, but we’re both on the same page.
One thing I was determined to do when I was in debt was to NEVER let it become my partner’s burden.
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Commenters who’ve suggested a neutral third party might be on the right track.
Trying to put myself in her shoes, I’d probably feel embarrassed and judged–even if my husband was as sensitive as possible.
If you just want to start planting the seeds–and let her sow them in her own time–I’d suggest starting a conversation about the future that has nothing to do with money. Ask her what she pictures as an ideal day in 20 years, in 50 years. Talking about your dreams and ideal lifestyle can open up that conversation about your future goals in a purely positive way.
I’m sure she’s intelligent enough to understand that today’s financial behaviors might be putting those goals farther away than she’d like. If it’s something she really wants, I would imagine that would be a stronger motivator than the guilt she might be living with now.
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… for richer, for poorer …
Pull out the wedding album and tell her how beautiful she is, then and now, and how lucky you are and ask her what her favorite memory is or anything to remind her of the strength of your love and relationship….
Tell her that one of the things you love about her is her honesty, even when it is hard. Tell her you know that it wasn’t easy to come clean about the debt, but that you admire her strength and the fact that she didn’t hide it strengthens your trust and faith in her.
Ask for her trust and faith in return. (She might raise an eyebrow here…)
Tell her you simply need her help because you don’t know how to talk to her about strengthening the financial relationship that you both now share. Tell her you want to support her and that you married her in debt, but you want her to know the joy of being debt-free because you love her.
The most important thing is that the control is given to her, not taken away from her. If she is restricted from shopping, OHMIGOODNESS, only bad will follow. But, if she agrees to the 1 in/ 1 out rule and sells a gently used shirt when she buys a new one, then that is something she will consider (hmmm… do I have another shirt that I want to get rid of? Maybe I don’t need this new one…) when making purchases because she is in control.
OR
Maybe you suggest switching roles to try out one another’s shoes. Have her pay the house bills out of whatever account (or set up a joint account for household bills only or whatever is easiest for both), while you sort out the bills that need to be paid. There are credit counseling places that will do this for a fee of like $20 a month or whatever, but if you or she do it together, the habits will be good habits in the future. The key is to make her feel special. Special as in one of a kind, never going to be replace-able, only one for you special – not special ed. She didn’t get into debt because she’s dumb, she got into debt for a number of reasons and in the end, you married the woman she became after all that happened to her. She is beautiful as is. But her money could use a make-over. Try to get her to think of it that way. A make-over for her credit history. Tell her you need her help to make it *pretty*.
I’m only sort of kidding. The mood has to get lighter so she doesn’t feel down in the dumps everytime the D-word is brought up. Really, really, really, important that she gets many, many, well-placed thoughtful compliments to make her feel good because the debt feels bad.
In some ways every time Husband brings this up, it is like half ripping off a band-aid. OUCH! EWW! Gross! Yucky gross wound. If she then freaks out and storms off, sticks band-aid right back on, then that wound will not heal. You have to KISS IT MAKE IT BETTER! Gentle, healing hands! You’re ok, I’m ok, we’re all going to be ok! Wash out that wound, apply antibiotic ointment, let it breathe, re-bandage if necessary but keep checking on it! This is all about bring it out into the open.
She doesn’t want to talk about it, she wants to do something about it (she may or may not KNOW that) – so action is a good game plan… Let’s hunt for statements! Let’s make a pile of bills!
And telling her that she is smart everytime she talks to you intelligently about finances and money, followed by a kiss – big win.
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My parents showed me that money is power by trying to control each other with it as well as us 4 kids. What I and my 3 younger sisters all learned is that if you don’t have any, you are at the mercy of those who do, even if it is your own spouse or parent. So, each of us girls did everything we could to try to get financially free from our parents — including getting into personal debt (in my case over $100,000 of student loans and credit cards to finance my college and law school education)! I’m not sure if I jumped out of the frying pan into the fire or just jumped into another frying pan. But, it still felt better to owe Uncle Sam and the banks instead of unquestioning loyalty and slavery to my parents forever.
How we choose to use our money is as personal as how we satisfy (or not) our most basic sexual desires. If we choose to share our lives and the most intimate of physical acts with a significant other, we must be willing to at least talk about how we are currently handling our finances. The past might be the past and not much value to discuss now (as discussing past lovers can be more harmful than do much good). But, if you have some health issues as a result of past relationships, then for sure any risks to your partner must in all good conscious be shared. The same with huge debts and lingering spending issues that must affect your partner’s financial health, too! : )
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I have to agree that couples counseling sounds like a good idea. I don’t really know how seperate finances work (ours have always been joint), but I would think her financial situation could impact his at some point, if she really doesn’t care for it. He deserves to know and understand her finances for this reason, at least enough to know if they are financially safe.
If there is a control issue (or perceived control issue – maybe he is being reasonable, but she feels controlled anyways), then a counselor can probably help. And if it isn’t a control issue, a counselor might be able to help identify what is actually going on.
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As for counseling…
I doubt that is going to happen. Not anytime soon, anyway. Informal conversations with financially savvy (or experienced with their own debt conquered) friends and family might be possible, but the level of stress rises with these conversations, even if they aren’t about HER. If you can’t get her to talk to you… I sort of doubt you can get her talked into talking to you and someone else. Especially if you are going to tell her she is a shop-aholic or something… I just don’t see that happening in reality.
If it does, and it definitely would be a HUGE blessing if it does happen, you have many choices. There are groups. There are counselors and Ph.D.’s. There are clergy (who married you? Did you have pre-marital classes? Maybe the reverand whats-his-or-her-name would love to talk to you and or her… of course they want to see the marriage they created thrive and prosper!), and they are trained to counsel couples.
There are also credit companies, and there is a wide range from bad to good to better, and you’ll want to research what is recommended by your Better Business Bureau. Beware of fees, but keep in mind convenience. If this is something you think is going to stay a hot button topic even if you have your first dialogue, you might want to consider the credit counselor because they figure out the entire snowball thing for you accounting for several variables and they look at your budget and help you work out solutions with the creditors, sometimes even negotiate interest and fees for you, but best of all they have you pay them one payment that they distribute to everyone according to the plan. They might charge a fee, but they are mailing several payments out for you and handling all those due dates for you, and they might get rid of some extra interest or fees for you, too. And they might take away some of the stress from the actual handling of the debt… which might really help the marriage.
But she’ll have to be on board. Maybe the reward, at the end, when it is all paid, is a second honeymoon…
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#29 Dana is probably my favorite commentor of the day. That is really awesome. Sounds like a keeper!
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OK —
I think the first thing is to give Hal the benefit of the doubt that it is NOT his approach that is making her defensive.
I think there is lots of evidence that she brought a money avoidance issue into the marriage with her. She already had a debt problem and defaulted student loans.
The real question in this story is — WHAT is this woman feeling about money? She probably feels really badly about the situation she’s in, and more than a little powerless. At the same time, she’s probably got some nasty habits that she can’t break.
When I was avoiding my student loans, that was when I was also a serious shopaholic. I shopped to alleviate my stress that I’d never be able to afford anything, which made me psycho-crazy to buy things. One of the scariest things I’ve done is face up to the fact that I couldn’t avoid my student loans/debts anymore.
Counselling definately. But don’t assume Hal’s the bad guy. Maybe he is. But that’s not the real issue here. She came into the marriage with the problem.
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I’m going to buck the trend here and say don’t get counseling, don’t sugar-coat it, don’t try to approach it gently. Go to your spouse and say “We need to solve this and have a new system put together, and we have to follow it, and we have to agree right now to move forward with this, or else: There’s the door.”
I may sound coarse in saying this, but in reality I am being merciful: if you fail to do this, the end result will be the exact same divorce you’re risking by doing it — except it will happen 3 or 4 years down the road instead of right now, leaving you 3 or 4 years further back from recovery. If your marriage can’t survive an absolutely scathing examination of your monetary situation, then your marriage can’t survive PERIOD. This is one of those issues you won’t be able to compensate for by working around it.
For my part, the wife and I keep the same separate accounts as when we got married, and we split all costs of living. It’s nice because it gives us each very clear indications of where our discretionary income is, and we both save so we’ll both be in good shape down the road… whether together or apart. My student loan debt is my own, and my empty cards don’t hurt me; conversely, my wife’s high credit card balance is her own and her paid-off student loans are a nice boon to her side of the equation.
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Damn, Mike beat me to it! Moving sucks :O
“Hal” needs to ask himself if he is willing to remain in a relationship with someone who exhibits these behaviors towards money. As some others have said, this isn’t a minor issue, it’s a potential deal-breaker.
Does she work much? I guess she probably does, since he wrote that she has her own account. Just wondering though.
That said, it seems that Hal might be acting a little unfairly here. He knew about this from the jump. Ostensibly he was OK with it. Did he talk about it when they were dating? She was honest about her debt. Why is he only bringing this up now? What motivation does she have to change this behavior?
Also, I’m not sure about where they married or the legal arrangements of their marriage, but if the nuclear option is exercised, isn’t that debt now Hal’s as well? Can any lawyers here comment on this?
JD, I’ll update my email soon.
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By my own experience, the only solution to this kind of situation:
Divorce.
Right now I´m willing to have the guts to do such a thing, but I see no future on my relationship either….
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The question that Hal asked was, ‘Is there anything I can do to have an open dialogue with her about money matters without making her defensive?’
A lot of posters have offered techniques and suggestions geared toward starting an open dialogue. There have also been a lot of comments pointing out that at this point, the wife’s debt is probably so bad that she doesn’t really want to look at it (or at least talk about it much with her husband) – which is why she gets so defensive. This is pretty understandable given that many people wish their worst problems would simply go away.
Actually, given that at least some of her loans have been in default for some time, I suspect that she’s already given up the situation as hopeless – so why bother trying? Shopping could also provide a means to try and escape her problems (even though it really only makes things worse). So, asking her to dig herself out of her own debt at this point may not be a good idea. It looks like she doesn’t have the necessary coping strategies as is & she has compounded the issue by continuing to exercise bad spending habits.
Hal indicated that he accepted his wife’s financial situation when they got married, so I’m assuming he also accepted the fact that there would be a lot of debt to repay & that this would take time. Obviously, he wants to include his wife in these financial plans or he would not be asking for ways to bring up the subject without making her defensive. However, it may simply be that she does not have the emotional energy to deal with it at the moment. In fact, this could explain why ‘it seems like she doesn’t want to change [her financial situation].’
It will probably take time and seeing a light at the end of the tunnel before she’ll really be able to face her financial past. Yes, there are things that you can try to motivate her – inspirational books, reward systems, goal setting, unconditional love, improving overall communication, and even tough talk. However, nobody can make her change – that’s something she will have to do herself (and it won’t happen overnight). She may also need time to breath & not be bothered with the issue for a little while before she comes around.
If so, is Hal prepared to work toward paying down that debt without his wife’s involvement? For how long? For how much of it? Because right now, he’s not getting any of her involvement, and (frankly) there is no guarantee that he will ever get it. And if he’s NOT willing to, for instance, work on creating a debt snowball and paying it down for X amount of time without much help from his wife… where does that leave him and his marriage?
Being able to say, ‘hey I’ve done this for X amount of time, and this is the progress that’s been made’ may provide some of the hope that his wife may need if there is visible progress. It *could* lead into ‘and if we can work together, I’m sure that we can make even more progress.’ However, this is something that would have to be done carefully because it could easily make his wife feel even worse about herself & her ability to be financially responsible.
Really, we readers can try to provide advice and insights based on our own personal experience, but Hal is the one who will need to dig through it all to try and find what applies to his situation. The answer to Hal’s question of ‘how do I talk to her about this?’ may be to talk tough. Or to be supportive. Or it may be that you don’t talk about money for a little while – you lead by example instead for a time or work on other things, like establishing a firm open communication system before you even think of bringing up money. Either way, he’s the one that has to live with his wife and whatever happens. I just hope that some of our comments provide the help that Hal (or perhaps another reader out there) is looking for.
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For years my wife and I have had arguments over money. I tried to sit down with her and show her how much we were spending during a month but she always claimed we really didn’t spend anything. This was not far from the truth since the majority of our money was going toward debt and day to day living expenses. Finally I purchased Microsoft Money. I tracked all of spending for 6 months. I expanded the generic categories in Money to be very specific to our spending habits. I created a report and removed all of the monthly credit cards, recurring payments such as mortgage, Phone, etc. Some of the recurring bills were kept in. These were areas I thought we could cut back on; such as cable. I printed out the final report and handed it to her and told her this is how much money we have spent outside of recurring bills over the past 6 months. She was shocked. At first she didn’t believe me. She actually sat down with me and went through each category. It was still a very tense conversation but in the end we agreed we needed to do something.
Since then we have created a budget using two checking accounts; one for spending one for bills. We have started to pay down our debt and have established an emergency fund.
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The number of postings here indicate just how loaded this topic is.
We were married for 7 yrs before we laid it all on the table and that was because we both became unemployed at once and the wolf was well and truly at the door. Sounds like a bad time, but it was actually GOOD not only because it was thrilling to dig ourselves out and learn how powerful we were but also because it was a huge relief to talk so honestly about money from stem to stern. You can be sleeping with someone and intimate in every other way and still very shy about your shared money. Because, as everyone here has said in one way or another, money is never really about money.
That said, we have had separate accounts for the 20 yrs we have been married, and I have never understood the hot and bothered opinions of those who think that is a bad thing. Do you give blood together through the same tube? You are two separate people. If you can’t trust each other to have separate grown up accounts, your marriage has bigger problems than whose account a given payment comes out of. And a joint account isn’t going to prevent the upshot of those problems and it isn’t going to make your shared money “more shared.” If a joint account makes you happier, then do it. But the bank can’t arbitrate your marriage for you.
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It all boils down to communication for me.
I think it’s the key to every success and the lack of it is integral to every failure.
My guess is that those who have difficulty discussing money in their relationship probably have (or will have someday) other marital issues that stem from a lack of communication.
So I see two problems here…one is obvious…Money.
The other is a bit more subtle, but I think even more important to the overall health of the relationship…a lack of effective communication.
Fix the communication problem and you will have the key to cleaning up your financial difficulties.
Finding a way to bridge the distance can be difficult, especially if one partner refuses to talk. It won’t by easy at times, nor will it be a quick fix. You’ll need to ease your partner into this discussion. It’ll take baby steps/small victories before you’ll be able to fix the entire problem.
I’ve found the most effective way to increase the communication in my marriage has been to focus on myself first. I haven’t always been effective at delivering my message in a way that encourages my wife to listen. Tone of voice, delivery, the words you choose etc. will have an impact on your success.
Maybe pick up a book or two on the topic. My personal favorites are Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People,” and John C. Maxwell’s “Winning With People.”
Become a better communicator with your wife and the money discussion will occur.
Good Luck,
-Jeff
I’m Minding My Own Business, are you minding yours?
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Ah. My ‘money conversations’ with my spouse are going much better now than they used to. Certain things they never taught us in school . . . see my article on How To Talk About Money http://www.diamondcutlife.org/how-to-talk-about-money/
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Robert has a GREAT point. Learning style is important here. DH can talk about money all he wants, for hours on end, and it makes no difference to me.
I need to SEE it, on paper. Or else I don’t get it at all. It HAS to be in Quicken, and I have to SEE everything. I have to see how buying a book today means we’ll go in the red in three months.
The seeing bit can be important.
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wow,
lots of different opinions here. I would try a different tack: relinquish control.
do i have your attention yet?
make a nice dinner, candles and everything, then sit down and say ‘we need to talk about our plans for the future, and how we are going to get there. part of this is money, but a lot more is looking at our goals. I know you don’t want to do this now, but pick a time in the next couple of weeks.’
Let her pick the time and place. And let her have control. Don’t make it about MAKING her conform to your budget. if it’s a discussion about goals, it makes a lot more sense.
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You absolutely have to lay down the law. Ask her why she married you, if she doesn’t want to share important things, such as money, with you.
It is unacceptable for her to hide financial data from you. If you have to, tell her that she is being deceitful (which it sounds like she is) and you cannot stay married to someone who will continue to deceive and hide things.
Her actions have already affected your life, if you are going to buy a house you can’t have her on it now because her credit score is going to be horrid.
Hope all turns out well.
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you have to be on the same page. if you’re not, it won’t work. it’s like a team sport. if all five players are not on the same team with the same goal in mind, the basketball team won’t win. if the couple isn’t on the same team with the same goals in mind, they won’t win. best of luck.
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Thanks for all the suggestions, guys! Some of you were right on the (no pun intended) money saying that there may be issues other than the money, as we argue about other things as well.
I think what’s best at the moment is to just let her spend what she will, work on other areas of the relationship, and bring up the financial talk up later.
A good time might be when we drive past a big house and she wistfully says “we could never afford a house like that.” Another opening will be when I get an “extra” (third) paycheck at the end of August and I can ask her what she feels would be the best use of it (emergency savings fund, new house fund, my car debt, her student loan debt, or a new TV), and then follow her suggestion without any discussion.
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There’s an old saying that goes: if you try to force a hand, it will fight you. The ‘lay down the law’ method never works for me. I’ll do exactly the opposite. Who exactly gave the authority for someone else to be ‘the lawgiver’?
Ever notice that are some people who seem to always get other people to go along with what they want? A masterful negotiator will persuade you to the outcome they want by making you think it was YOUR idea all along. You need to encourage your wife to think that saving and cutting back on spending for a house (or whatever) is a great idea, then marvel at how brilliant she is.
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There’s a lot of good advice in this string! So where to start with my 2 cents? [thinking cap goes on.]
Before I start, assume the usual caveats: I don’t really know you or your wife, I know only what you’ve written, and anything I write should be preceded with a “likely,” “probably,” “chances are,” or “for many/most people.” Now on with the show.
I expect there are three issues at play. In order of importance, they are:
1. Control, both of self (your wife keeps spending, for example) and within your relationship.
2. Embarrassment at past poor choices. Embarrassment makes people defensive.
3. Spending choices.
In simplistic terms, the solution to the first problem is to relinquish some control. I see this happening in two general ways. One, don’t increase the pressure to a solution; instead, lower the barriers to a solution. You’ve already decided to ease off for a while, this should help. Two, get her to get skin in the process.
Start by seeing if you agree on what the problem is. You know your wife, we don’t: what method do you think is most likely to encourage her to talk about what the problem is. She may see the problem as something other than what you see it Maybe the answer is to say “I consider this level of debt to be a problem, do you?” Now you’ve started a discussion what the problem is. Your goal is to hear what she thinks.
Once you’ve mutually defined the problem, move on to a solution. “This is one solution that I see to it. Maybe it’s not the right one, what do you think?” Then keep asking questions. You don’t have to have this conversation all at once. Giving her time to think about her answers may work for y’all.
Notice I haven’t talked at all about control of money. Your first task to come to agreement about what the problem is. The better you can define it, the easier it is to find a solution that fits.
The solution to the second problem isn’t easy and it probably isn’t simple. Attitude and pronouns make all the difference. My suggestion is that it’s no longer her debt, it’s your (plural) debt, and be nonjudgemental about how the debt came into being. This may feel wrong to you – I know people who would say this lets her off the hook. Maybe so, but putting the blame on her isn’t working; if you keep doing the same things you’re going to get the same result. Ergo the suggestion for a different approach. Maybe, too, this path is too well plowed, you two are in such a deep rut on the subject that you can’t climb out of it by yourselves. (It happens a lot in long-term relationships.) Maybe what you need is a marriage counselor, maybe what you need is a financial adviser, maybe what you need is a simple intermediary. The marriage counselor route would help you address a variety of problems (which all may arise from a single set of related causes), the financial adviser would let you focus on one issue and is less scary sounding, the intermediary is the least formal of all. Whether you use a third party or not, it’s probably going to take time to change the patterns that have made this a difficult topic – time for you to change your actions, time for her to change her reactions and interpretations of your actions.
Once you’ve worked together to define what the problem is, and created an environment condusive to a production discussion, THEN you address actual dollars and cents.
What I’ve described is the long way around, but I hope it’ll lead to a long-term solution and better communication methodologies in your marriage.
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wow based on the comments posted. this is a touchie subject I about to get married and one thing i fear the most is financial problems. This blog helped out with ideas and advice but its easier said than done. we can all talk about how to improve our certain problem but are we really doing it?
For those that are giving advise, have you tried it out yourself? Do you see yourself in the same situation as you were last year?
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amed, We don’t have everything where we want it, but the path for communication is open. We still disagree about things, and still make plenty of mistakes. But here are some mistakes we don’t make anymore.
1. We used to get in trouble because I wouldn’t tell my wife “We can’t afford that”. So we’d go out to eat, or buy a bunch of clothes, then wouldn’t have money when the rent came due. We lost a house that way.
2. We used to INTENTIONALLY overdraw our account to get things we wanted, because neither of us wanted to say no.
3. My wife was so tired of hearing me nag her to stop spending that she just ignored it. (That’s when I started Behavior #1)
When we sat down seriously to try to fix things, it was touchy for a while. Tempers flared, because we had a lot of past problems to work through. The key was when we started talking about our emotional reasons, desires, and fears. Once we understood where the other was coming from, it helped open the door for future communication.
For example, my wife was neglected and abused as a child, and shuffled between whatever family members would agree to watch them while her parents were off being irresponsible. So she has a very serious emotional need to provide for our children, and not feel like she’s neglecting them (by, for example, not buying them a DVD player for the car).
Knowing that about her means that I can be aware of the emotional source of her POV when we talk about money. If I just say “We can’t afford that,” she translates it as “We can’t afford to take care of our kids. I’ve turned into my mom.” So instead of just a cold, hard veto, I can address her REAL issue of providing for the children, while balancing it with good money sense.
Again, it’s about a whole lot more than just dollars and cents…
Does that make sense?
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I was in a similar situation when I got married 9 years ago, and here’s how I/we handled it.
After a couple years of bad money management, we decided to start having weekly financial meetings. We had already been tracking spending (me in Excel/Quicken, and she in a ledger), so our meetings were to reconcile our books (even though she tracked her spending, it was on a per-category basis; I continued to reconcile the account statements in Quicken, so our books had to match), and to make any adjustments we thought were necessary.
At first, she REALLY REALLY REALLY didn’t want to do it, but she agreed to it if I agreed to do something fun for her after the meeting. We would go out for pizza, or watch a movie, or go out for ice cream or something. We met at the same time every week, and eventually settled on a weekly pizza night. Even though we have the meetings with much less frequency now (our system runs very well now, so we don’t need them like we used to), we tend to still have pizza night.
Also at first our meetings were very long, because we just didn’t know what we were doing and it took us a little while to get into a groove.
Today our system is a little different: she doesn’t track things in her ledger anymore, but relies on my Excel and Quicken; I send her weekly updates. Also, the 2 categories over which she has exclusive control (Dining and Misc.) are cash only – no debit or anything, so no tracking it in Quicken/Excel.
Recently we have revived the monthly meeting schedule, following Dave Ramsey’s suggestion of nailing down the budget before the month begins – this forces us to consider the expenses we know we will have for the following month.
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One thing I would suggest, that I have not yet seen here:
Ask your wife what money means to her. Ask her to write it down for you, so you can read it quietly and understand it. Tell her you hope she puts down every EMOTIONAL marker she can think of, every goal, every want, every fear, anything that makes her angry about money.
Because money is never just about “money”. For me, there’s a lot of emotion tied up in it; there may be for most women. Men, too, maybe. I’m trying to get my own finances in order, and have mostly not been cooperative about dealing with my fiance, because there’s been a lot of confusion between us – and a lot of anger on my part, having to do with receiving conflicting signals from him. When he told me that he didn’t want me to do without the things I had done without all my life, but followed it up with concern and disapproval about my credit card balance, I got confused, and I got defensive. In turn, I got angry discovering that he had made substantial gifts to people who were strangers to me (a loan that never gets repaid is a frigging GIFT). REALLY substantial gifts. And yet it was HIS money, therefore I considered it HIS decision. In turn, I had put things on my card, to pay for myself in installments, because I didn’t want to ask him for money, money that cost him time and effort to earn, which took him away from being with me. The end result of this would seem to be that he valued these strangers more than he valued being with me. And that’s only part of it. So: there’s a lot of emotional baggage tied up with Money, and it will help if both of you can find out what her baggage is. It wouldn’t hurt to know what your own is. That will make it easier to at least get all the bags moving in the same direction, you know?
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J.D. has a lovely entry which he put in as a bit of a toss-off; it got only one comment. In it, he has a link to a PDF entitled: “Father Tries To Make Mother Like Figures“; it’s a printout from, I think, Life With Father. I’m hoping he’ll include the PDF in this entry, and I’m really really hoping that Hal, and anyone else who is looking for a non-confrontational way to open up a discussion on home finances will PRINT IT OUT AND GIVE IT TO THE SPOUSE TO READ. Hand it to them with a little “I love you, honey” written across the top of the printout, may go a long way toward diffusing the stress of bringing up the subject.
Good luck to us all.
J.D.’s note: I’ve added the link to this comment. It’s a big PDF, but it’s fun.
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J.D., thanks so much! Also? Don’t let J.D. scare you, it’s only a couple of pages, for heaven’s sake!
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