Good luck to us all.

J.D.’s note: I’ve added the link to this comment. It’s a big PDF, but it’s fun.

Ask your wife what money means to her. Ask her to write it down for you, so you can read it quietly and understand it. Tell her you hope she puts down every EMOTIONAL marker she can think of, every goal, every want, every fear, anything that makes her angry about money.

Because money is never just about “money”. For me, there’s a lot of emotion tied up in it; there may be for most women. Men, too, maybe. I’m trying to get my own finances in order, and have mostly not been cooperative about dealing with my fiance, because there’s been a lot of confusion between us – and a lot of anger on my part, having to do with receiving conflicting signals from him. When he told me that he didn’t want me to do without the things I had done without all my life, but followed it up with concern and disapproval about my credit card balance, I got confused, and I got defensive. In turn, I got angry discovering that he had made substantial gifts to people who were strangers to me (a loan that never gets repaid is a frigging GIFT). REALLY substantial gifts. And yet it was HIS money, therefore I considered it HIS decision. In turn, I had put things on my card, to pay for myself in installments, because I didn’t want to ask him for money, money that cost him time and effort to earn, which took him away from being with me. The end result of this would seem to be that he valued these strangers more than he valued being with me. And that’s only part of it. So: there’s a lot of emotional baggage tied up with Money, and it will help if both of you can find out what her baggage is. It wouldn’t hurt to know what your own is. That will make it easier to at least get all the bags moving in the same direction, you know?

After a couple years of bad money management, we decided to start having weekly financial meetings. We had already been tracking spending (me in Excel/Quicken, and she in a ledger), so our meetings were to reconcile our books (even though she tracked her spending, it was on a per-category basis; I continued to reconcile the account statements in Quicken, so our books had to match), and to make any adjustments we thought were necessary.

At first, she REALLY REALLY REALLY didn’t want to do it, but she agreed to it if I agreed to do something fun for her after the meeting. We would go out for pizza, or watch a movie, or go out for ice cream or something. We met at the same time every week, and eventually settled on a weekly pizza night. Even though we have the meetings with much less frequency now (our system runs very well now, so we don’t need them like we used to), we tend to still have pizza night.

Also at first our meetings were very long, because we just didn’t know what we were doing and it took us a little while to get into a groove.

Today our system is a little different: she doesn’t track things in her ledger anymore, but relies on my Excel and Quicken; I send her weekly updates. Also, the 2 categories over which she has exclusive control (Dining and Misc.) are cash only – no debit or anything, so no tracking it in Quicken/Excel.

Recently we have revived the monthly meeting schedule, following Dave Ramsey’s suggestion of nailing down the budget before the month begins – this forces us to consider the expenses we know we will have for the following month.

1. We used to get in trouble because I wouldn’t tell my wife “We can’t afford that”. So we’d go out to eat, or buy a bunch of clothes, then wouldn’t have money when the rent came due. We lost a house that way.

2. We used to INTENTIONALLY overdraw our account to get things we wanted, because neither of us wanted to say no.

3. My wife was so tired of hearing me nag her to stop spending that she just ignored it. (That’s when I started Behavior #1)

When we sat down seriously to try to fix things, it was touchy for a while. Tempers flared, because we had a lot of past problems to work through. The key was when we started talking about our emotional reasons, desires, and fears. Once we understood where the other was coming from, it helped open the door for future communication.

For example, my wife was neglected and abused as a child, and shuffled between whatever family members would agree to watch them while her parents were off being irresponsible. So she has a very serious emotional need to provide for our children, and not feel like she’s neglecting them (by, for example, not buying them a DVD player for the car).

Knowing that about her means that I can be aware of the emotional source of her POV when we talk about money. If I just say “We can’t afford that,” she translates it as “We can’t afford to take care of our kids. I’ve turned into my mom.” So instead of just a cold, hard veto, I can address her REAL issue of providing for the children, while balancing it with good money sense.

Again, it’s about a whole lot more than just dollars and cents…

Does that make sense?

Before I start, assume the usual caveats: I don’t really know you or your wife, I know only what you’ve written, and anything I write should be preceded with a “likely,” “probably,” “chances are,” or “for many/most people.” Now on with the show.

I expect there are three issues at play. In order of importance, they are:
1. Control, both of self (your wife keeps spending, for example) and within your relationship.
2. Embarrassment at past poor choices. Embarrassment makes people defensive.
3. Spending choices.

In simplistic terms, the solution to the first problem is to relinquish some control. I see this happening in two general ways. One, don’t increase the pressure to a solution; instead, lower the barriers to a solution. You’ve already decided to ease off for a while, this should help. Two, get her to get skin in the process.

Start by seeing if you agree on what the problem is. You know your wife, we don’t: what method do you think is most likely to encourage her to talk about what the problem is. She may see the problem as something other than what you see it Maybe the answer is to say “I consider this level of debt to be a problem, do you?” Now you’ve started a discussion what the problem is. Your goal is to hear what she thinks.

Once you’ve mutually defined the problem, move on to a solution. “This is one solution that I see to it. Maybe it’s not the right one, what do you think?” Then keep asking questions. You don’t have to have this conversation all at once. Giving her time to think about her answers may work for y’all.

Notice I haven’t talked at all about control of money. Your first task to come to agreement about what the problem is. The better you can define it, the easier it is to find a solution that fits.

The solution to the second problem isn’t easy and it probably isn’t simple. Attitude and pronouns make all the difference. My suggestion is that it’s no longer her debt, it’s your (plural) debt, and be nonjudgemental about how the debt came into being. This may feel wrong to you – I know people who would say this lets her off the hook. Maybe so, but putting the blame on her isn’t working; if you keep doing the same things you’re going to get the same result. Ergo the suggestion for a different approach. Maybe, too, this path is too well plowed, you two are in such a deep rut on the subject that you can’t climb out of it by yourselves. (It happens a lot in long-term relationships.) Maybe what you need is a marriage counselor, maybe what you need is a financial adviser, maybe what you need is a simple intermediary. The marriage counselor route would help you address a variety of problems (which all may arise from a single set of related causes), the financial adviser would let you focus on one issue and is less scary sounding, the intermediary is the least formal of all. Whether you use a third party or not, it’s probably going to take time to change the patterns that have made this a difficult topic – time for you to change your actions, time for her to change her reactions and interpretations of your actions.

Once you’ve worked together to define what the problem is, and created an environment condusive to a production discussion, THEN you address actual dollars and cents.

What I’ve described is the long way around, but I hope it’ll lead to a long-term solution and better communication methodologies in your marriage.

Ever notice that are some people who seem to always get other people to go along with what they want? A masterful negotiator will persuade you to the outcome they want by making you think it was YOUR idea all along. You need to encourage your wife to think that saving and cutting back on spending for a house (or whatever) is a great idea, then marvel at how brilliant she is.

I think what’s best at the moment is to just let her spend what she will, work on other areas of the relationship, and bring up the financial talk up later.

A good time might be when we drive past a big house and she wistfully says “we could never afford a house like that.” Another opening will be when I get an “extra” (third) paycheck at the end of August and I can ask her what she feels would be the best use of it (emergency savings fund, new house fund, my car debt, her student loan debt, or a new TV), and then follow her suggestion without any discussion.

It is unacceptable for her to hide financial data from you. If you have to, tell her that she is being deceitful (which it sounds like she is) and you cannot stay married to someone who will continue to deceive and hide things.

Her actions have already affected your life, if you are going to buy a house you can’t have her on it now because her credit score is going to be horrid.

Hope all turns out well.

do i have your attention yet?

make a nice dinner, candles and everything, then sit down and say ‘we need to talk about our plans for the future, and how we are going to get there. part of this is money, but a lot more is looking at our goals. I know you don’t want to do this now, but pick a time in the next couple of weeks.’
Let her pick the time and place. And let her have control. Don’t make it about MAKING her conform to your budget. if it’s a discussion about goals, it makes a lot more sense.

I need to SEE it, on paper. Or else I don’t get it at all. It HAS to be in Quicken, and I have to SEE everything. I have to see how buying a book today means we’ll go in the red in three months.

The seeing bit can be important.

I think it’s the key to every success and the lack of it is integral to every failure.

My guess is that those who have difficulty discussing money in their relationship probably have (or will have someday) other marital issues that stem from a lack of communication.

So I see two problems here…one is obvious…Money.

The other is a bit more subtle, but I think even more important to the overall health of the relationship…a lack of effective communication.

Fix the communication problem and you will have the key to cleaning up your financial difficulties.

Finding a way to bridge the distance can be difficult, especially if one partner refuses to talk. It won’t by easy at times, nor will it be a quick fix. You’ll need to ease your partner into this discussion. It’ll take baby steps/small victories before you’ll be able to fix the entire problem.

I’ve found the most effective way to increase the communication in my marriage has been to focus on myself first. I haven’t always been effective at delivering my message in a way that encourages my wife to listen. Tone of voice, delivery, the words you choose etc. will have an impact on your success.

Maybe pick up a book or two on the topic. My personal favorites are Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People,” and John C. Maxwell’s “Winning With People.”

Become a better communicator with your wife and the money discussion will occur.

Good Luck,
-Jeff
I’m Minding My Own Business, are you minding yours?

We were married for 7 yrs before we laid it all on the table and that was because we both became unemployed at once and the wolf was well and truly at the door. Sounds like a bad time, but it was actually GOOD not only because it was thrilling to dig ourselves out and learn how powerful we were but also because it was a huge relief to talk so honestly about money from stem to stern. You can be sleeping with someone and intimate in every other way and still very shy about your shared money. Because, as everyone here has said in one way or another, money is never really about money.

That said, we have had separate accounts for the 20 yrs we have been married, and I have never understood the hot and bothered opinions of those who think that is a bad thing. Do you give blood together through the same tube? You are two separate people. If you can’t trust each other to have separate grown up accounts, your marriage has bigger problems than whose account a given payment comes out of. And a joint account isn’t going to prevent the upshot of those problems and it isn’t going to make your shared money “more shared.” If a joint account makes you happier, then do it. But the bank can’t arbitrate your marriage for you.

Since then we have created a budget using two checking accounts; one for spending one for bills. We have started to pay down our debt and have established an emergency fund.

A lot of posters have offered techniques and suggestions geared toward starting an open dialogue. There have also been a lot of comments pointing out that at this point, the wife’s debt is probably so bad that she doesn’t really want to look at it (or at least talk about it much with her husband) – which is why she gets so defensive. This is pretty understandable given that many people wish their worst problems would simply go away.

Actually, given that at least some of her loans have been in default for some time, I suspect that she’s already given up the situation as hopeless – so why bother trying? Shopping could also provide a means to try and escape her problems (even though it really only makes things worse). So, asking her to dig herself out of her own debt at this point may not be a good idea. It looks like she doesn’t have the necessary coping strategies as is & she has compounded the issue by continuing to exercise bad spending habits.

Hal indicated that he accepted his wife’s financial situation when they got married, so I’m assuming he also accepted the fact that there would be a lot of debt to repay & that this would take time. Obviously, he wants to include his wife in these financial plans or he would not be asking for ways to bring up the subject without making her defensive. However, it may simply be that she does not have the emotional energy to deal with it at the moment. In fact, this could explain why ‘it seems like she doesn’t want to change [her financial situation].’

It will probably take time and seeing a light at the end of the tunnel before she’ll really be able to face her financial past. Yes, there are things that you can try to motivate her – inspirational books, reward systems, goal setting, unconditional love, improving overall communication, and even tough talk. However, nobody can make her change – that’s something she will have to do herself (and it won’t happen overnight). She may also need time to breath & not be bothered with the issue for a little while before she comes around.

If so, is Hal prepared to work toward paying down that debt without his wife’s involvement? For how long? For how much of it? Because right now, he’s not getting any of her involvement, and (frankly) there is no guarantee that he will ever get it. And if he’s NOT willing to, for instance, work on creating a debt snowball and paying it down for X amount of time without much help from his wife… where does that leave him and his marriage?

Being able to say, ‘hey I’ve done this for X amount of time, and this is the progress that’s been made’ may provide some of the hope that his wife may need if there is visible progress. It *could* lead into ‘and if we can work together, I’m sure that we can make even more progress.’ However, this is something that would have to be done carefully because it could easily make his wife feel even worse about herself & her ability to be financially responsible.

Really, we readers can try to provide advice and insights based on our own personal experience, but Hal is the one who will need to dig through it all to try and find what applies to his situation. The answer to Hal’s question of ‘how do I talk to her about this?’ may be to talk tough. Or to be supportive. Or it may be that you don’t talk about money for a little while – you lead by example instead for a time or work on other things, like establishing a firm open communication system before you even think of bringing up money. Either way, he’s the one that has to live with his wife and whatever happens. I just hope that some of our comments provide the help that Hal (or perhaps another reader out there) is looking for.

Divorce.

Right now I´m willing to have the guts to do such a thing, but I see no future on my relationship either….

“Hal” needs to ask himself if he is willing to remain in a relationship with someone who exhibits these behaviors towards money. As some others have said, this isn’t a minor issue, it’s a potential deal-breaker.

Does she work much? I guess she probably does, since he wrote that she has her own account. Just wondering though.

That said, it seems that Hal might be acting a little unfairly here. He knew about this from the jump. Ostensibly he was OK with it. Did he talk about it when they were dating? She was honest about her debt. Why is he only bringing this up now? What motivation does she have to change this behavior?

Also, I’m not sure about where they married or the legal arrangements of their marriage, but if the nuclear option is exercised, isn’t that debt now Hal’s as well? Can any lawyers here comment on this?

JD, I’ll update my email soon.

I may sound coarse in saying this, but in reality I am being merciful: if you fail to do this, the end result will be the exact same divorce you’re risking by doing it — except it will happen 3 or 4 years down the road instead of right now, leaving you 3 or 4 years further back from recovery. If your marriage can’t survive an absolutely scathing examination of your monetary situation, then your marriage can’t survive PERIOD. This is one of those issues you won’t be able to compensate for by working around it.

For my part, the wife and I keep the same separate accounts as when we got married, and we split all costs of living. It’s nice because it gives us each very clear indications of where our discretionary income is, and we both save so we’ll both be in good shape down the road… whether together or apart. My student loan debt is my own, and my empty cards don’t hurt me; conversely, my wife’s high credit card balance is her own and her paid-off student loans are a nice boon to her side of the equation.

I think the first thing is to give Hal the benefit of the doubt that it is NOT his approach that is making her defensive.

I think there is lots of evidence that she brought a money avoidance issue into the marriage with her. She already had a debt problem and defaulted student loans.

The real question in this story is — WHAT is this woman feeling about money? She probably feels really badly about the situation she’s in, and more than a little powerless. At the same time, she’s probably got some nasty habits that she can’t break.

When I was avoiding my student loans, that was when I was also a serious shopaholic. I shopped to alleviate my stress that I’d never be able to afford anything, which made me psycho-crazy to buy things. One of the scariest things I’ve done is face up to the fact that I couldn’t avoid my student loans/debts anymore.

Counselling definately. But don’t assume Hal’s the bad guy. Maybe he is. But that’s not the real issue here. She came into the marriage with the problem.

I doubt that is going to happen. Not anytime soon, anyway. Informal conversations with financially savvy (or experienced with their own debt conquered) friends and family might be possible, but the level of stress rises with these conversations, even if they aren’t about HER. If you can’t get her to talk to you… I sort of doubt you can get her talked into talking to you and someone else. Especially if you are going to tell her she is a shop-aholic or something… I just don’t see that happening in reality.

If it does, and it definitely would be a HUGE blessing if it does happen, you have many choices. There are groups. There are counselors and Ph.D.’s. There are clergy (who married you? Did you have pre-marital classes? Maybe the reverand whats-his-or-her-name would love to talk to you and or her… of course they want to see the marriage they created thrive and prosper!), and they are trained to counsel couples.

There are also credit companies, and there is a wide range from bad to good to better, and you’ll want to research what is recommended by your Better Business Bureau. Beware of fees, but keep in mind convenience. If this is something you think is going to stay a hot button topic even if you have your first dialogue, you might want to consider the credit counselor because they figure out the entire snowball thing for you accounting for several variables and they look at your budget and help you work out solutions with the creditors, sometimes even negotiate interest and fees for you, but best of all they have you pay them one payment that they distribute to everyone according to the plan. They might charge a fee, but they are mailing several payments out for you and handling all those due dates for you, and they might get rid of some extra interest or fees for you, too. And they might take away some of the stress from the actual handling of the debt… which might really help the marriage.

But she’ll have to be on board. Maybe the reward, at the end, when it is all paid, is a second honeymoon…

If there is a control issue (or perceived control issue – maybe he is being reasonable, but she feels controlled anyways), then a counselor can probably help. And if it isn’t a control issue, a counselor might be able to help identify what is actually going on.

How we choose to use our money is as personal as how we satisfy (or not) our most basic sexual desires. If we choose to share our lives and the most intimate of physical acts with a significant other, we must be willing to at least talk about how we are currently handling our finances. The past might be the past and not much value to discuss now (as discussing past lovers can be more harmful than do much good). But, if you have some health issues as a result of past relationships, then for sure any risks to your partner must in all good conscious be shared. The same with huge debts and lingering spending issues that must affect your partner’s financial health, too! : )

Pull out the wedding album and tell her how beautiful she is, then and now, and how lucky you are and ask her what her favorite memory is or anything to remind her of the strength of your love and relationship….

Tell her that one of the things you love about her is her honesty, even when it is hard. Tell her you know that it wasn’t easy to come clean about the debt, but that you admire her strength and the fact that she didn’t hide it strengthens your trust and faith in her.

Ask for her trust and faith in return. (She might raise an eyebrow here…)
Tell her you simply need her help because you don’t know how to talk to her about strengthening the financial relationship that you both now share. Tell her you want to support her and that you married her in debt, but you want her to know the joy of being debt-free because you love her.

The most important thing is that the control is given to her, not taken away from her. If she is restricted from shopping, OHMIGOODNESS, only bad will follow. But, if she agrees to the 1 in/ 1 out rule and sells a gently used shirt when she buys a new one, then that is something she will consider (hmmm… do I have another shirt that I want to get rid of? Maybe I don’t need this new one…) when making purchases because she is in control.

OR

Maybe you suggest switching roles to try out one another’s shoes. Have her pay the house bills out of whatever account (or set up a joint account for household bills only or whatever is easiest for both), while you sort out the bills that need to be paid. There are credit counseling places that will do this for a fee of like $20 a month or whatever, but if you or she do it together, the habits will be good habits in the future. The key is to make her feel special. Special as in one of a kind, never going to be replace-able, only one for you special – not special ed. She didn’t get into debt because she’s dumb, she got into debt for a number of reasons and in the end, you married the woman she became after all that happened to her. She is beautiful as is. But her money could use a make-over. Try to get her to think of it that way. A make-over for her credit history. Tell her you need her help to make it *pretty*. I’m only sort of kidding. The mood has to get lighter so she doesn’t feel down in the dumps everytime the D-word is brought up. Really, really, really, important that she gets many, many, well-placed thoughtful compliments to make her feel good because the debt feels bad.

In some ways every time Husband brings this up, it is like half ripping off a band-aid. OUCH! EWW! Gross! Yucky gross wound. If she then freaks out and storms off, sticks band-aid right back on, then that wound will not heal. You have to KISS IT MAKE IT BETTER! Gentle, healing hands! You’re ok, I’m ok, we’re all going to be ok! Wash out that wound, apply antibiotic ointment, let it breathe, re-bandage if necessary but keep checking on it! This is all about bring it out into the open.

She doesn’t want to talk about it, she wants to do something about it (she may or may not KNOW that) – so action is a good game plan… Let’s hunt for statements! Let’s make a pile of bills!

And telling her that she is smart everytime she talks to you intelligently about finances and money, followed by a kiss – big win.

Trying to put myself in her shoes, I’d probably feel embarrassed and judged–even if my husband was as sensitive as possible.

If you just want to start planting the seeds–and let her sow them in her own time–I’d suggest starting a conversation about the future that has nothing to do with money. Ask her what she pictures as an ideal day in 20 years, in 50 years. Talking about your dreams and ideal lifestyle can open up that conversation about your future goals in a purely positive way.

I’m sure she’s intelligent enough to understand that today’s financial behaviors might be putting those goals farther away than she’d like. If it’s something she really wants, I would imagine that would be a stronger motivator than the guilt she might be living with now.

I’ve been a saver all my life. Every dollar I made between 15-25 was put into savings. I had a financially irresponsible boyfriend after college who I thought I could help manage his finances. Instead of helping him up, he dragged me down into $35,000 worth of credit card debt. I don’t blame him because I could not change the fact he was an irresponsible spender. That is not within my ability to change. The only person who I can change is me. What I should have done short of “wishing I’d never met him” was protected my own finances. I never should have allowed my credit cards to be used for joint expenses. The only smart thing I did was protect my savings account. When we split, I had enough money to leave and start over again.

When I went into my current relationship, my debt was mine. I didn’t talk about it, didn’t expect any help with it. We have a joint account that we pay our finances from. I agree with you – joint finances are a partnership. We manage our joint expenses as a team. The only thing I see changing in the future as we meld more of our finances is that our joint expenses will grow. But I will always maintain my own retirement account and savings. It gives me security to know that I will be able to take care of myself should the worst happen.

If I want to buy new clothes, I pay for it from my personal account. If he wants an iPod, he pays for it from his personal account. If we want a new stove, we pay for it from our joint account. If one of us gets laid off from work, the other will pick up the living expense until the other gets settled. This is our agreement and partnership, but we’re both on the same page.

One thing I was determined to do when I was in debt was to NEVER let it become my partner’s burden.

I really doubt money really has anything to do with nagging. If it is related, it would come down to one people giving in the relationship and the other taking.

Most of the money issues are because it only takes one person acting irresponsible to undo self sacrifice and long term work of the other. Not to mention than the irresponsible partner will weaken the finances and when bad times come, the stress from not being prepared causes huge damage to the relationship. Especially if there are expectations or hidden surprises. And of course, when the relationship is always under money stress, simply because one person is never responsible and refuses to talk about it/change, the relationship will be constantly strained.

Money is not the same as a tidy house. Money is what lets you keep a house. It’s what lets you eat, and your family eat. It can even be what lets your kids go to college, play sports and so forth. It’s what gives you the freedom to change jobs, to avoid being trapped. The one who is not responsible threatens all of that. It’s easy to ignore that reality because most of us are secure in the present.

Money management is a requirement for marriage and both must take part. The household is like a business – if you want to stay in business, it needs to be done.