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This is a guest post from Steve Ross, a pastor at a church in rural Oregon.
I learned something about how wealthy I am recently.
I am a pastor in a congregation that is in a financial crisis. We’re reaching new people, but as our older givers die the losses exceed the gains in terms of financial support. This year we have a $100,000 deficit in our budget. Yikes! As our Finance Committee worked on the problem it became clear that we needed to cut $20,000 out of our staff costs over the final six months of 2008.
I decided that our staff members should talk about this situation so that they could give me feedback before the Finance Committee made final decisions. At a staff meeting I laid out the causes of our current financial situation and the goal of a $20,000 cut in staff expenses. I told them they didn’t have the responsibility or authority to make the decisions, but that I would like to hear their ideas. I expected it to be a very anxious and depressing meeting.
Instead, we had a very energetic and forward looking session in which our staff members offered up $30,000 in cuts to their own compensation! I and my co-senior pastor each offered to reduce our compensation over the final six months of the year by $5000, about 10% of our salaries. Of course, we are continuing the tithe we had committed to before the reduction.
I was astounded by he ease and sense of power and purpose with which I came to this decision, and the grace with which my spouse affirmed it, and with which all the staff shared in like decisions. When do people ask for a significant cut in pay? And why would they do it?
Now that I have had a couple of months to reflect on these questions, the answers are clear. They are surprising only in that our experience demonstrates what has often been said in principle. I confess that I doubted these principles would actually feel good in reality.
- Enough is enough. First, none of us are actually being forced to give up necessities in order to take these cuts. None of us will lose our shelter, or go hungry or naked. We will be giving up things like vacations, eating out regularly, spending as much on gifts, helping our young adult children as much as we would like, and so on. We have been told it, but now I know it: happiness and a sense of contentment in life is not a matter of wealth once the basic needs are covered. No matter how much we say this, we all think a new car will make us happier. It won’t.
- It’s not what you have, it’s what you do (and who you do it with). Second, those of us who are making this “sacrifice” are doing it for very self-serving reasons. We are a team of people who like working together. We believe in the work we are doing (this is a terrific church with a powerful purpose and a promising potential). Each of us is appreciated for the gifts we bring, we trust each other, and our interests are complimentary. In other words, we would rather do this work with these people for reduced compensation than some other work with some other people for more money.
- Bet on what you believe in. Finally, we believe that we are investing our effort in the future of a community of people, and in an institution that is worth our investment. We believe that this investment will “pay off” as time goes by in increased contentment and purpose in our lives.
Sometimes being who you want to be means choosing to do work that pays less than you could make by being someone you don’t want to be. I have learned this year that I am fortunate to be able to do work that helps me be the person I want to be, and to do it with others who are of value to me. And I am fortunate that this work is able to meet my needs. Financially, needs are all that matter.



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August 3rd, 2008 at 5:36 am
Neat post - my first reaction was “you guys are nuts” but I guess if you really believe in your work then it might be worth taking a pay cut for.
Mike
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:07 am
Check out Wealth 101, by Peter McWilliams. It outlines a whole new attitude to wealth, as in, “wealth is what you can do without”.
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:11 am
I totally agree with this post. I’m a teacher, and after four years in a rough public school, I moved to a private Christian school. It probably costs me $10,000/year in salary, but the unwritten benefits are most definitely worth it. I love the teachers I work with, as well as my students. The students still have issues, but they are nothing compared to what I was dealing with previously. It’s also worth it to me to be able to minister to my students in the context of our shared faith, which is something that I was unable to do in a public school setting.
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:16 am
This sounds like the other guest post on survival.
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:54 am
For some reason, as I read this post, I kept flashing on my 4 year old’s statements yesterday. A trip to the bank and some goofy (but sweet) behavior resulted in two green lollipops offered by the bank employee. My son, as he licked a lollipop, happily asked: “Are we rich, Mommy? Because I think we’re rich. With these lollipops, I think we’re rich.”
If only those little things in life could remind us adults how good we’ve got it more often…
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:22 am
It’s true that a typical middle class lifestyle has a great deal of excess in it, compared to the way that most people in the world live, and a great many of them are satsified with life. All indicators show that materialism is not the most important factor in happiness; meaning and purpose is also extremely important.
That said, I do hope the pastor’s congregants in a position to contribute more to make up the deficit do so. It’s not healthy, in the long run, for spiritual communities to balance their budget by counting on the clergy and staff’s willingness to take a pay cut.
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:37 am
Very inspiring. I hope this can be a stepping stone to incorporating the congregation in the solution to this issue.
I’m taking a major (read: 75%) paycut next year to do something that I feel passionately about. It’ll help that my expenses will be less, but there won’t be any chance for savings..
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:42 am
Money and happiness are truly two different things. What a great story.
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:42 am
I think the first wonderful thing about this post is that they explained this situation to their employees and gave them a chance to help. Sometimes the best ideas come from the bottom up. And second, they feel like a team, so whatever they say, they have to stick by you because that’s their integrity, which is all we have in life, outside of family, friends and, for some, faith.
Taking the cuts can be a good, but unless you are getting a nice salary, it can eventually become an issue.
Solutions: (1) don’t forget to give a time line. People can be generous, but they need to make a suitable living without creating stress at home too! (2) create a plan of action to get back to where you need to be, including cutting expenses, fund raising and other income generated activities.
This is a great temporary solution for a cause people believe in. But it should be temporary. Find a long term solution for all. All the best… Cheaplee
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:49 am
This isn’t why I read this blog. What does working in a cash-strapped church, whose cash cows are dying off, have to do with “getting rich slowly” (key words: getting rich)? I don’t want to hear from people who don’t have money. I want to hear from people who DO, and how they got it, in real, tangible ways, not schemes. You’ve gone off the rails here.
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:56 am
This will help the church’s problem in this fiscal year, but what about the next fiscal year? Your staff may not be able to keep making cuts to their salaries/vacations, etc. I work for a non-profit and we are in a deficit year as well. Though I do appreciate the fact you all came together as a team to discuss the sitaution and do something about it, are you also discussing how you can get a more newer and younger congregation?
Unlike John, I think this is an interesting post. Coincidentally, posted on a Sunday.
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:05 am
Thanks for the feedback, John.
The focus here wasn’t meant to be on the church, but on the choices the employees had to make, especially about whether money was more important to them or the jobs they loved. This isn’t an isolated incident.
I was just speaking with a friend the other day who took a voluntary pay cut from $42,000 to $32,000 recently because his employer is struggling in this economy.
People often write to ask if they should take a higher paying job that doesn’t excite them or a lower paying job that they believe is more in line with what they want to do.
In short, I do feel this is relevant, but I can understand your viewpoint.
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:12 am
A couple of years ago the hubby and I had a long discussion on the subject of what really is wealth to us. You see, it seems to both of us that both before we were married and after, some of our happiest times were times when we had next to no money at all - but a great life.
One of the reasons we had this talk was we were facing some major life decisions. We moved across country, and hubby now makes about half what he used to - although my income has increased a bit - but our living expenses here are minimal. And we love our life.
The Native Americans used to measure wealth by how much you had to give away. You’ve chosen to give away a bit of money, but it will allow you to keep the life you love. To me, that’s a no-brainer.
Blessedbe
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:25 am
When thinking men and women look upon Jesus as he offers up his life on the cross, they will hardly again permit themselves to complain at even the severest hardships of life, much less at petty harassments and their many purely fictitious grievances.
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:03 am
I agree with JD. Just because there are no tips on real, tangible ways of making money doesn’t mean this post doesn’t belong here. Plus, if it wasn’t a huge deal to go without 10% of your salary for several people, you could consider cutting that out of your salary and investing it.
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:35 am
I have worked for years at a non-profit that serves the poverty community. It is largely dependent on state and federal funding. Politics being what they are, we have good years and bad years. During one particularly bad year, our whole department agreed to reduce our work time by 25%. We recalculated our wages to receive a monthly check and then we each took a three-month break. This meant that we all got a monthly (albeit reduced) check even during the three-month break, no one was laid off, and the next year when the funding sources increased, we all came back up to full time. Some people (maybe NOT John) WILL step up to the plate if asked, and if the cause is worthy. In my case, both my fellow workers jobs and the needs of our clientele impacted my decision to go along with the plan.
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:56 am
I think there is a personal finance lesson here.
What if you were in a situation where your company wasn’t doing well and you were asked to take a 10% cut so the company can keep going? Some people might choose to quit and look for another job but others might realize that they would have a tough time finding a job that pays as well (even after the 10% cut) and might choose to stay.
What if management came to the workers and said that either everyone takes a 10% paycut until times get better or we lay off 10% of the workers? What would you choose?
Mike
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
John, reread the post title. You are missing the point I think.
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
This site is called Get Rich Slowly, but who says it can’t be about being rich in the non-monetary sense? Trent at TSD talks about this kind of thing all the time too…recently he just posted about all the things he enjoys that don’t cost money. It’s not unheard of for a pf blog to talk about things like this.
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
You are probably in a positive workplace environment that employees want to stay in and are willing to make sacrifices to remain. I used to work for a public library where I made about 20% less than I would in almost any other major city library system in the US. But I loved the director and the people I worked for - it was a very positive environment, so I was willing to work for less pay than I could receive elsewhere. Then, over the course of a year, the politics changed - the progressive director was “let go” and the entire situation of the workplace changed. All of a sudden I wasn’t willing to work for 20% less than librarians in other cities make - so I left. So wealth isn’t always money, sometimes its happiness and pleasant surroundings.
August 3rd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Wow, that is about all I can say.
My name is Ryan and I am a 3rd year bible college student. Eventually I want to be a pastor (but first I want to be an entrepreneur for a little bit).
It sucks to hear you are losing so much money. sounds like you might need to do a few things differently.
I help out in the youth ministry and we dont get a big budget so we have learnt how to get the cheapest things possible (if not free). Mayb you could continue doing what you are doing (your ministries) but find cheaper ways to do them. Because seriously a $100,000 loss for a church is MASSIVE and not sustainable (neither is a $70,000 loss after your staff cuts).
If you dont start doing things differently soon you will have no church at all, and no one wants this to happen.
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I don’t mean to rain on the parade here, but perhaps there is a little more going on here. There were going to be $20k in cuts, meaning reduction in headcount — or at least a replacement of a full-time position with a part-time position. If you’re talking $30k in cuts across your staff, and you and your co-pastor make up $10k of it, then I’m guessing you have 5 or so other staff members, each kicking in around $4k. If each person has the choice between a 1/5 chance of losing his/her job or a $4k reduction in salary, I don’t think the outcome is that surprising.
In fact, if they are making more than $20k each, then they made the perfectly rational decision, because 1/5 of $20k is $4k, and therefore their expected loss in salary is smaller if they offer to give up the $4k (ie, 1/5 of more than $20 is more than $4k — a greater expected loss).
The story comes off as if they sacrificed to save the church. They didn’t do that. The church was going to be saved regardless. They sacrificed to save their own rears, or — at best — the rear of their coworker who would lose her job.
There’s nothing wrong with this, mind you; I’m just pointing out that there is an alternate explanation for this that is much more logical and in line with human nature. There are plenty of examples of humans deciding to forgo self-interest for the greater good, but I hesitate to agree that this is one of them.
August 3rd, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Nice essay and interesting comments. As an employee of an institution notorious for its low pay, I have to agree with mwarden. Underpaid jobs tend to beat up an employee’s self-esteem, leaving the person with the perception that she (most often, but sometimes he) can’t get a better job. So, such workers will tolerate pay cuts, cuts in benefits, unpaid overtime, and increases in workload without commensurate increases in pay. As one said to me, “Better to have a [bad] job than no job at all.”
BTW, I’ve linked to this in today’s round-up post at FaM.
August 3rd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Thanks for a moving post. It’s a nice reminder that wealth is not equal to money.
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I think there are several things that we can learn from this story and apply to getting rich.
The first thing I asked myself was “Could I take a fake 10% pay cut and be alright?” followed closely by “Should I, and what would I do with the other 10%?”
The second thing is that the same scenario could easily play out in any small business, like where I work. It’s a small (~8 people) company. Do I believe in the company enough to take a pay cut if times get tough? At my current job I don’t, but if it were something I loved doing I might.
If we’re feeling particularly stretchy we could could even take this as a lesson in the importance of diversity in investment. If the congregation had been more diversified, perhaps cuts wouldn’t have been needed as much when one segment started dying off.
Besides, there’s only so much you can learn about IRAs and only so many ways to get out of debt. Investigating other aspects of money management and stories of other people’s choices are interesting too.
August 3rd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Ignoring the fact that the author is a pastor; if we look at the situation from a purely financial sense it clearly shows that the organization’s old customers are dying and it is not in tune with the new generation of customers. This does not suprise me in the least because many younger folks do not prefer going to church for the simple reason that many religious leaders are out of tune with today’s relatities. Without picking on any particular denomination; how many churches are embracing and inclusive of women, gays, etc?
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
I have a feeling these cutbacks are just delaying the inevitable. Without a more developed financial plan, employees will have to become volunteers. Personally, I wouldn’t take a paycut without a better outlook on the situation.
August 3rd, 2008 at 9:38 pm
If I am reading this right, this rural church has two pastors earning 6 figure salaries plus other staff making significant income. Yeah they can probably “sacrifice” some of their salary and be alright, as the pastor admits ( and thanks for being honest).
I worry that some people who aren’t in the position of being handsomely compensated for serving God really can’t afford to have so much “faith” in their organization/employer. It’s one thing to sacrifice part of a comfortable salary to help a community that one is invested in beyond economics. It is another thing entirely for the millions of people ( probably most working people) who are barely getting by toiling for a paycheck from some faceless company.
and to # 2 Solomon,
Peter McWilliams was awesome. It’s really a shame that he was murdered by the Federal government.
August 3rd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
John I really think you are missing the boat on this, and I can kinda tell you are a younger guy who’s never gone through really tough times. First of all you need to understand that a church is not just 4 walls and a front door. It also includes differing ministries that reach out and assist in the community, and possibly even overseas. I guess my question to you would be this…..which ministry do you cut first?? And next what would you recommend?? You see this group of people is not doing this work just because it’s their JOB they are doing them because GOD put it on their hearts to do this work. These people are LIVING out what the Bible speaks of of giving with a cheerful heart. And they are also living out what it means to sacrifice. We live in a society today that says you can have it all right now whether you can afford it or not, and here you have a group of people who are practicing SOUND short-term financial responsibility, and you knock them around saying they are out of touch……my firend that’s not out of touch…….that’s LEADING BY EXAMPLE……
It seems that unfortunatly you appear to be the one who is really kinda out of tune with today’s realities. Unfortunately cutbacks, layoffs, and shutdowns do occur, but if you were to ask most folks they would rather take a paycut than have to look for a job. This economy right now is tough no question about it. I run an IT consulting company, and a lot of my clientele have asked me to bring my prices to a place they can afford, and, and even though I have a family, I have listened to them and lowered my prices. I did it with a cheerful heart…..and what do you think has happened…….that’s right……last week I picked up 3 new paying clients that MORE than made up for the revenue loss I had experienced……Think about it man……..I (just like that church office staff) am doing something I absolutely love, I almost lost a significant chunk of business (to the tune of about 15K a month), nearly had to lay the 2 guys who work with me off, but by being prayerful, humble, and cheerful about the situation I was rewarded with not only a short term solution, but with a long-term gain.
Times are tough, but by management of small businesses trying to work together with their employees because they believe in a team concept goes back MANY generations……and the idea of debt, and living in excess, and wastful spending practices have only been around for the past 40 or so years.
A class that I went through recently said it the best…….You want to learn how to get wealthy………spend some time and learn how to manage money from your grandparents………that same class also said this “live like no one else……so later you can live like no one else.” THAT’S exaclty what this church is doing right now…….they’re keeping the things that are important in front of them, and letting GOD sort out the rest, and they WILL be blessed for it….you can count on it!!!!
Nathan
August 4th, 2008 at 4:02 am
(I believe the pastors’ salaries were originally 50k and not six figures, if their voluntary pay-cut was 5k and represented a 10% reduction, as stated.)
I am a churchgoing Oregonian like the writer — though I’ve never met Steve — and like him, a values-driven earner rather than a high earner. My experience suggests that taking joy in things like community, God and nature can actually displace the ‘need’ for expensive, optional material goods that end up creating debt and suffering for many Americans after they purchase them. More about happiness with less consumption at http://www.diamondcutlife.org/
August 4th, 2008 at 6:35 am
“I run an IT consulting company, and a lot of my clientele have asked me to bring my prices to a place they can afford, and, and even though I have a family, I have listened to them and lowered my prices. I did it with a cheerful heart…..and what do you think has happened…….that’s right……last week I picked up 3 new paying clients that MORE than made up for the revenue loss I had experienced……Think about it man……..I (just like that church office staff) am doing something I absolutely love, I almost lost a significant chunk of business (to the tune of about 15K a month), nearly had to lay the 2 guys who work with me off, but by being prayerful, humble, and cheerful about the situation I was rewarded with not only a short term solution, but with a long-term gain.”
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. You didn’t get rewarded by God for your cheerful heart; you made a rash decision without proper analysis and got lucky. There is a price-demand curve for your service, and you were priced higher than the optimum. This is microeconomics 101, not a miracle.
August 4th, 2008 at 7:23 am
I think that if someone can take a paycut that’s their business, but I don’t think that pay is an expense that should be on the chopping block. And if it must be, it should be the most exorbitant salaries that are chopped first, not the least.
I hope that when the economy goes back up, these folks’ salaries go back up. Call me skeptical but too many employers, regardless of who they represent, have cut wages for workers while maintaining and even raising their own. Even in ministries. That has got to stop.
It’s not just an economic downturn, but the purchasing power of a dollar that’s at issue here. We’re getting paid less and less. Our dollar doesn’t stretch like it used to, and we’re asked to take on more and more burden all the time through healthcare premiums/deductibles, utility fuel prices, etc.
I wouldn’t keep asking the staff to voluntarily reduce their salaries; I’d ask why you haven’t received new parishoners, and if you have why those parishoners are not choosing to bequeath money to the church.
August 4th, 2008 at 7:54 am
mware…..sorry to say but it is a miracle……I was priced EXACTLY in line with my competitiors in my town EXACTLY DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR……I don’t think I can say that any plainer……..Do you think that I’m stupid…….apparently so with an assinine comment like that……..once I prayerfully and thoughtfully considered what my clients were going to do (which was NOT going to be to switch to a competitor, but rather cross their fingers and hope and pray nothing went wrong with their technology, and if it did pay through the nose for ANY support), I decided that it was BETTER in the long run to maintain the relationships I had built and developed rather than be BULL-HEADED and create strife…….make sense??? OH……..and not to mention……..other businesses are now calling me because not only do I offer the BEST service in town, but I do it for a little cheaper than EVERYONE else…….dude I’m not stupid, and I’m REALLY good with microeconomics I passed 101, and for future reference since I don’t know you from Adam, I would appreciate you not telling me as a business owner where you ASSUME the status of my business was/is….I quote your comment “Sorry, but this is ridiculous. You didn’t get rewarded by God for your cheerful heart; you made a rash decision without proper analysis and got lucky. There is a price-demand curve for your service, and you were priced higher than the optimum. This is microeconomics 101, not a miracle.” I did get rewarded by God…..plain and simple…..took me 3 months to make my decision (lost 1 client in the process), changed my attitude about money and wealth (which was the whole POINT of my business in the 1st place), and have now watched it start to grow exponentially in the last 30 day………think about it before you tell a business owner they made a rash decision and YOU don’t know the whole story behind it.
August 4th, 2008 at 8:12 am
I think it’s interesting. I’ve been thinking about the circumstances under which I might take a paycut (to work less hours). I could do so now, but instead I’m investing the difference and putting it towards my eventual retirement.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:10 am
I’d prefer to see that an organization take drastic steps to reduce non-staff expenses and to increase revenues.
I worked for a non-profit that saw its rent raised drastically because the church providing the basement space was struggling. They wanted to raise our rent (for a meal kitchen) by around $25k a year. I went in and changed the hot water setting, had the pipes wrapped with insulated tape, replaced some of the appliances, changed the heat and so on. I got the church to do the same thing upstairs. Bingo. Their costs dropped and our rent didn’t need to go up nearly so much. (It went up around inflation instead.)
Has this church rented out its unused space? Looked at selling its space and leasing? Started a daycare? Renegotiated contracts with suppliers? And so on? I certainly hope they went through every other step before staff felt compelled to cut their already modest salaries.
This goes for other organizations, too. Too many companies look to cut staff costs before getting creative with other line items.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Thank you Andrea……you said what I wanted to say in a much nicer tone……When times get tough…….as a business owner or a church organization…….you have to get inventive to maintain business and still continue to grow!!
Nathan
August 4th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This is a nice post in and of itself and I’m glad the church came to a resolution that works for them.
I’m a little edgy at the concept of voluntary salary reductions, because I have had a personal experience where salary reductions were abused. We first were approached to take a voluntary salary reduction at an IT consulting company I worked for. OK.
Then, the ones who didn’t opt for the reduction were in the first wave of layoffs. They asked for another salary reduction. Then there were more layoffs. Then they started announcing mandatory salary reductions, and there were a couple of rounds of those together with waves of layoffs.
They also awarded the yearly bonus and then asked us to voluntarily forego it.
By the time I was laid off, after over a year of salary reductions in the last round before the company actually closed its doors permanently, I was making 35% less in salary than when this started. I also missed out on a severance package that the first group got. I had to go on unemployment right away, and it was calculated based on my reduced salary, so that cut too.
The cherry on top was that I was in the group that got this speech: “You are our elite or you wouldn’t still be here at this stage. However we can’t afford to keep paying you anything. But — we think we can keep our doors open if you’d like to keep working for us for free until business turns around.”
Hell no.
db
August 4th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I like Four Pillars (Mike’s) comment. I think that in these tough times we are having right now that more companies would do better to ask their employees which they would rather, 10% pay cut or 10% of employees lose their jobs but I cannot see many companies doing this or many people agreeing. I wonder how different this meeting would have gone if it was at my husband’s work than in a church? I’m not sure that many may not vote to get rid of 10% of employees and just pray that they are not in that 10%. And I have to agree with whomever brought up how difficult it would be to lose 10% of your income when you are living paycheck to paycheck but then I guess you have to ask yourself would I rather lose 10% of my income or 100%?
August 4th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
My basic argument still stands -
From a purely financial point of view, a business must always be in touch with its customers i.e paying customers with earning power. Else it will soon go out of business. And every business which is in a dwindling cash flow situation needs to do some soul searching to understand what has alienated its customers.
Nathan - Quoting God, prayer and miracles in a financial blog does not add any value. Else we all buy lottery tickets and pray every night for a windfall. And please do not preach regarding the great work since it is a known fact that religion is responsible for the most deaths. While some organizations do carry out good work; more often than not, it is with selfish motives of conversion and increasing numbers of followers. The NGOs do so without a selfish motive in heart. Many religious leaders do actively preach hatered and discrimination.
August 5th, 2008 at 4:35 am
John–A bit OT but “Many religious leaders do actively preach hatered and discrimination.” –many does not equal all. Your source for this one?: “it is a known fact that religion is responsible for the most deaths.” It’s not hard to sense an anti-religious sentiment from your posts and maybe that’s what is driving your comments. The issue is not Nathan’s belief but what people value in their lives and how they can make do with what they have.
I agree with those who have said the pay cuts shouldn’t be a permanent/continual solution or otherwise the congregation will continue to rely on this. While many churches offer free housing, the pay is not necessarily what one would call outstanding (of course, one doesn’t go into this field for the money), but clergy have to make a living too and constant pay cuts aren’t an answer. It’s a 24/7 job that’s highly political and stressful. Mainstream Christian churches are losing congregants to the newer churches (think of the mega-churches that are most often tagged as ‘evangelical’) and are clustering their congregations, with two or more churches in a region sharing a pastor and this may be a future step for the congregation in the main post.
I think the last sentence of the author’s post nicely sums up the article: “Financially, needs are all that matter.” I have finally come to a point in my life where I believe this and I attribute it in large part to reading GRS.
August 5th, 2008 at 5:39 am
Jean @40: Most war leaders utilize religion to gather support for their initiative, and I think this is what John is referring to. The reason for the war is always economic at its base, but the war would not be possible without the controlling nature of organized religion. For a source you can pick just about any war in history; you will find religion somewhere in the message for why each side is fighting the other (let’s get those Godless Communists).
The issue taken with Nathan’s words was simply his attribution to miracle the basic fundamentals of the market. By using this attribution, the implication is that his customers would not have come to him otherwise, meaning that his prices are too high or his quality is too low or he is doing an inadequate job of marketing. So he is asserting that God either (a) caused his customers to come to him against their financial interests, or (b) God put in a few hours of marketing to these customers on Nathan’s behalf. I am a spiritual person, but I subscribe to Occam’s razor, and the simplest explanation here is that market forces are acting like we’ve observed them acting for centuries: if you lower prices and everything else constant, demand will increase.
Putting your business at risk just because your customers asked you to and without doing the proper cost-benefit analysis (short and long term, yes) is irresponsible, and if I worked in that business I would get out immediately. It’s not just his business that he is risking; he is risking the livelihood of all his employees and the economic viability of each of their families (which in turn will burden the entire community, if you want to draw out the ripple effects the whole way).
(He alluded to me not knowing the whole picture, and he is right. I’m going off of only what he has said here and reading in between the lines a bit. But I don’t think I’m far off…)
August 5th, 2008 at 6:35 am
It seems that any time religion is even hinted at on a website, the discussion dissolves to how it is the cause of all strife and wars on the planet. Humans use religion in the name of whatever cause they are fighting for or against. Just because leaders may use it as the basis for their conflict does not mean it is sanctioned by God or other higher power nor does it mean that all members of a sect support their leader’s rationale for war.
Moving on . . .
My point was that John has his views, Nathan has his. Nathan’s employees may have subscribed to his beliefs as he did. Not saying it’s right or wrong. Things worked out for him and his business.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:20 am
To me, money is money, and is important for everyone regardless of religion or politics. I try to steer clear of those topics, when possible. (Of course, sometimes I allow guest posts that intentionally stir the pot, but those are the exception, not the rule.)
August 6th, 2008 at 6:45 am
Interesting post. I think some parents face a similar situation after having children. Should I cut back on my hours? Should I quit for a few years to stay home with the child? These decisions could result in huge pay cuts to do something you feel passionate about. If you have ever found yourself in this situation, this post doesn’t seem that foreign anymore.