Missing the Target: Lousy Store Policies Can Thwart Frugal Intentions
Published on - August 7th, 2008 (by J.D. Roth) This is a guest post from The Tim at the Seattle Bubble blog, a site about the housing bubble. He also writes The Naked Loon, a Seattle-centric satirical publication.
One way our family keeps the entertainment budget slim is by not buying new release DVDs, but waiting to buy movies until they drop below $10.
About a month ago, my wife purchased the DVD movie “Never Been Kissed” for $5.50 from the discount shelf at our local Target. A few weeks after buying it, we tried to watch it, but after trying multiple DVD players it became clear that the disc was defective. On our next trip to Target we brought the DVD and the receipt back to exchange the disc for a working copy.
There were no copies of that movie in stock, so we waited another week and tried again. Unfortunately, this time not only was the movie not in stock, but an employee looked it up and informed us that Target no longer carries that movie at all. (Well, they carry it, but now it’s in one of those double-feature disc sets.)
I figured that this was no big deal, that since they don’t stock it anymore, they would accept a return for cash or store credit for the defective product they sold me.
Wrong.
The employee informed me that Target does not under any circumstances accept returns on DVDs, CDs, or video games. I asked to see the manager, who affirmed the policy and told me that he cannot override it, because of “copyright law.”
I know my rights as they pertain to copyright law, and I know that there is no provision in Federal law or Washington State law that prohibits a retailer from giving a customer their money back for a defective DVD. In fact, I verified with Costco that they are glad to issue refunds for DVDs. (Their return policy contains no exception for disc-based media of any kind.)
Unfortunately it seems that this “copyright law” excuse is being fed to Target employees from the top. An internet search revealed multiple accounts of similar tales across the country. It’s a store policy — nothing more. I can understand the rationale behind such a policy, but it’s pretty lousy that they give people with an actual defective product the shaft like that.
So, thanks to Target’s lousy policy, instead of a “cheap” $5.50 movie, we’re now stuck with a rather expensive $5.50 coaster.
The moral of this story is something that seems to be a good deal at the time can be turned into a complete waste of money by a lousy policy and stubborn or poorly trained employees. I’ve learned my lesson that it is important to be familiar with store policies and know your risk when assessing apparent “deals”.
J.D.’s note: I had something similar happen to me a few years ago. I bought a copy of “Battlestar Galactica” (the feature film version from 1978) at Fry’s Electronics. At home, I discovered the case was empty. When I tried to exchange the DVD, the employees and the manager stonewalled me. They were jerks. They didn’t believe my story. Ultimately, after weeks of waiting and about two hours of in-store time, I got my DVD. And Fry’s lost me as a customer.
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If you bought with a credit card or debit card, can you dispute the charge? The retailer refused to make it right, so you have a leg to stand on.
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I’d had a computer game I bought, the disk was cracked. I tried to return it, and I was accused of getting it, copying it for piracy, and breaking it to legitimize a return.
I went to another location of the same franchise and I had no problem returning it.
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Target is known to have some of the worst return policies of any store. My wife and I refuse to shop there any longer for this reason.
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Target is horrible for returns. I don’t like shopping there.
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Retailers can’t stick you with defective merchandise, regardless of your method of payment.
Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) you can revoke acceptance and demand a refund.
You had no way of knowing in advance the DVD was defective, since it was sealed and therefore unavailable for inspection at the time of purchase.
http://doj.nh.gov/consumer/sourcebook/defective.html
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Piracy is a huge deal in Hollywood so maybe the top dogs at Target are trying to get their employees to be tougher with returns? That being said, I bet if you wrote a letter, a competent executive would replace your dvd with a new one.
Time and time again I have had excellent customer service with Target. They are a Minneapolis-based company and are giving Walmart a run for their money. Just my 2 cents. And that’s about all I have to my name at the moment.
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Well, I had the opposite time with Target. Last Christmas, I bought “Goodfellas” for my Dad. When I went to wrap it, I discovered it was opened and there was no DVD in the case. I fretted about Target believing me, but I went to try and return it. They took it without question and gave me credit to spend how I wanted because there wasn’t another on the shelf. I guess it depends on which Target you go to.
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This is not just a Target store policy, any place that sells disc-based media is the same way. If it wasn’t you could buy every DVD on the shelf, copy it on your DVD-burner, scratch it with a thumb tack and get a refund. Every store employee is told it is copyright law. There is nothing you can do about it.
Why not just find a Walmart that has it in stock and exchange it there? They accept returns with out a receipt and would exchange it for a working copy.
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When I worked at WalMart the policy was that we did not accept returns for media products (like DVDs, CDs, VHS tapes, etc) if they were opened. However if the product was defective we gladly accepted an exchange or return. We had machines on disply that we could test the items in… I was also informed the policy was because of “copyright laws.”
Who knows…
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My new favorite tactic when dealing with customer service issues is to go to the Better Business Bureau. I’ve hit the wall with two companies when trying to settle disputes on my own, then went to BBB and let the companies’ reps explain themselves to the BBB. It saved me a lot of extra time and energy, and I recommend using this when you feel a company is wrongly shutting you out. The threat is that the company gets a negative rating, so it’s in their interest to resolve things favorably.
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This happened to me when I was 12. Empty CD case, I thought if I wrote to the company and explained the situation, they’d send me a new CD. Over 15 years later, still waiting for Boys 2 Men. By now they’re probably pushing middle age actually…
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Angie @ 5,
Um no, they’re not. As I stated in the post, Costco is happy to issue me a refund for a defective DVD. I verified this with the employees at the returns desk, and you can read their returns policy online and see that there are no exceptions for DVDs or any other disc-based media.
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Well Costco may be the only store. As I have been at the return line several times (in at least 5+ different stores) and seen customers trying to win the same fight. Everytime they would just leave upset, they never won. And they shouldn’t, its not logical. DVD-burners are standard on almost every new computer. Stores have no reason to assume that you are honest. To stay afloat they must be cautious.
Granted if no Targets nationwide stock it anymore than I can see an exception. But thats the only situation where I would draw the line.
Why not just download off the internet and burn it to DVD? Its not illegal if it is a backup copy of a DVD you already own.
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Just like to point out that it isn’t just retailers that have ‘less than stellar’ policies… I’ve had various problems with Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Etrade and TDAmeritrade that have all cost me. Just try getting satisfaction from companies that are supposed to have a fiduciary duty to you… Then throw in Insurance carriers.. Not to mention Blue Cross, and Workers Comp…
My feeling is that our society is breaking down. And I don’t mean that in a ‘UFO conspiracy’ fashion. I just feel that there is little regard for the customer, that our government has sided with business over the populace, that shaving a penny here and there is a priority for businesses, and staff are driven by ‘measurable metrics’ that are of little concern to us, but apparently are very important to management.
I don’t hold out a lot of hope, but expect this trend to build upon itself.
jegan
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Angie @ 9,
I agree. However, it’s not as if it would be that difficult for them to have one of those little 13-inch TV+DVD players at the returns desk to test it and verify that it is defective. The only time the returns line ever has so many people that this would be time-prohibitive is just after Christmas.
That’s probably what I’ll do, but I am fairly certain that according to the letter of the law, that is still illegal.
It is really ironic, when you think about it. Crappy policies like this treat paying customers like criminals, while actual criminals continue to download and burn movies with no hindrance.
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File a complaint with the BBB.
The DMCA roundly interferes with a consumer’s fair use right to personal backup when it comes to things like DVD movies.
Downloading the movie off the ‘net may not be illegal (but wouldn’t necessarily be legal), but the guy at the other end is most definitely violating one or more laws in ripping and redistributing it.
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It is unfortunate when this policy works against honest people. But over 99.9% of the time this type of policy is warranted for copyright issues. Your situation is probably that .1%.
Theres several other policies that can be comparable, like the no returns without receipt rule. The product may be defective, but stores don’t know what you did while it was in your possession. You could have had it for a year, broke it during use, and just cleaned it up real good.
That being said, after working in customer service over 3 years. My guess is at least 20% of the people you deal with are trying to slide something by you, if not substantially more. They may fib a little to make their checkout smoother. Or could be more serious things like stealing. Either way stores need to be strict on policies or else the cashiers their lose all credibility and even more scammers come by.
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I can’t even begin to tell you how much I hate to hear this sort of thing. I work in customer service, and would never tell a customer they had to live with a defective product. It reflects poorly on the company, and on the product. If one of our dealers did this I would be equally upset. But it does go to show you, sometimes you get what you pay for. Personally, I feel that even though the bix box stores are cheap, they usually aren’t your time or money. I know that I personally will never shop a Best Buy again because of a similar experience.
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It’s not a copyright law issue. There are other places that would accept the return.
This is why I don’t shop at Target EVER. I registered for a few things because wedding guests were asking for a registry. I somehow received three sets of the same set of mixing bowls, and they wouldn’t let me exchange one set because the gift-giver didn’t include the right gift receipt. I was happy to accept store credit, but they refused. It was $27, and they’ll only give credit for items under $20. I said I’d take $20 in credit, but no, that wasn’t an option.
I’m glad I hadn’t given them very much business. I don’t appreciate their policies that treat CUSTOMERS as though they are trying to scam Target.
Maybe it’s warranted because of theft, but I’m happy to shop elsewhere, so they’ve lost my business entirely. I hope that more people will do the same when they encounter bad customer service.
Not that you can do this with DVDs, but with other purchases, I’m trying to buy local. I find that local business owners are far more pleasant.
I won’t give my money to a company that assumes I’m a thief when I walk through the door.
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I’d avoid Target if possible. We made the mistake of doing a baby registry there earlier this year. One of the items on our registry was a set of baby monitors. When we opened our gift & set them up, all we could get was static/humming. We took them back, but our gift-giver hadn’t given us the gift receipt. No problem, I thought — our registry print-out shows that they were purchased from Target. Turns out, it was a big problem. They would not take them back under any circumstances, even though they could see from our registry that the monitors were purchased from Target. And, to make matters worse, they were $28 — if they had been under $20, they would have done it (twice per year, according to the clerk). Efforts to talk to the manager, and even try the return at another Target failed. I even offered to pay the difference and get a better set — no way they would that be allowed, I was told! They lost two customers (my wife and I) who used to like Target.
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To go along with #3, I would go back to the store and make it very clear that you have a defective product. Force them to attempt to play the disc to confirm that it is defective. Require it to be exchanged, or if they cannot exchange, refund. Don’t ask, tell.
If they do not perform either action, get, in writing, the fact that they acknowledge the disc as defective and refuse to exchange or refund. Be sure to include the exchange part, as that shows that you are only seeking the money in leu of a working disc. With that, you can do anything up to and including a court proceeding.
In a criminal court, it would be their responsibility to prove that you somehow copied and purposely damaged the disc. Which, of course, would not be likely to happen.
In a civil court, the fact that you would accept an exchange instead of a refund should remove any doubt from a judge’s mind that you are engaging in an illegal activity, since if you copied it you would only be seeking a refund. (Why copy it and damage it, just to exchange it for a new one?)
But honestly, copying and forwarding that letter onto corporate and the Consumerist would likely be enough to get your refund and an apology.
All that said, did you try something like a disc doctor? That works wonders on discs that are non-playable due to scratches and other surface-lying optical impediments.
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There’s a limit to what it’s worth to get this resolved, but if Target fails to make good, then they’ve effectively committed fraud by selling you something that isn’t what they said.
Don’t be nasty, but there is no reason for you to be out that DVD. If they won’t give you cash or credit, that’s fine, but they have no right to not give you something.
You aren’t trying to rip them off, and you are perfectly willing to take a replacement DVD in exchange for the bad one. So suggest that they order a replacement somewhere. Like Amazon.
Good luck.
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“One way our family keeps the entertainment budget slim is by not buying new release DVDs, but waiting to buy movies until they drop below $10.”
Why buy DVD’s at all and save even more.
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I haven’t read the comments so forgive me if I am repeating a point already made.
Target is breaking the law. There’s a reason why store return policies usually say in the fine print ‘this does not affect your statutory rights’ – legally it can’t. Your statutory rights include a refund (not store credit but a proper refund) for defective goods.
I don’t think this is Target trying to evade its legal responsibility. I think it’s probably a case of poorly trained staff misinterpreting the store policy and not realising the law.
You have two possible courses of action. Firstly, you could send the DVD back to head office with its receipt and a letter explaining that the DVD was defective, you are entitled to a refund by law, but it was refused by the local store. It would help if you had the dates and names of employees, but it’s not necessary.
Or you could pursue the manufacturer for a refund or replacement. The law says this is primarily the retailer’s responsibility but this is simply designed to make things easier for consumers; it doesn’t let the manufacturer off the hook in terms of its responsibility.
Even if you get the manufacturer to give you a refund, I think a letter to Target head office is still in order.
It shouldn’t be too hard to find the relevant legal passages on the net.
You could of course let it slide but then the problem will just persist. Also in the spirit of this being a blog about frugality, I think you owe it to the readers to push a little harder! If the customer relations department is up to scratch, they may send you something free as a good will gesture too.
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I witnessed another interesting case of trying to return a product when I was at PetSmart in Beaverton, OR yesterday.
I was waiting near the front register for a product that had to be brought from the store-room. While I was waiting a man brought back a $300 pooper-scooper for a cat, that his family ended up not getting. The product was in the box, had never been opened and PetSmart has a 90 day return policy.
So this man brings it back in, is very open and friendly about the whole situation, when the cashier says he can’t refund his money because they don’t keep that kind of cash in the till. When the man asks how that could be possible as the store itself is huge, and they sell other much more expensive items, the cashier responds by saying “Sir, you are acting inappropriately, and I am going to have to ask you to calm down” (The man was being calm, and I have had the same response returning stuff when I was calm, but in my case that phrase made me decidedly ‘un-calm’)
The man responded “well I am a busy man, as I am sure you are” And then asked again how they planned on handling the refund. The cashier responded he would have to try taking it to the store he had bought it at. The man replied that he had called that store and they had assured him that it could be returned to any store, and that he assumed not having $300 in the till was a company policy, and asked would it do him any good to go to the other store?
Unfortunately the item I had purchased arrived just at that moment, and so I never got to see how it ended, but there were three things I got out of the discussion.
1) The cashier was not spending his time trying to find a solution to the problem, and instead was trying to get rid of him by two means: Pushing him into another store & making the customer upset enough to remove himself from the store.
2) The manager was watching this entire situation without offering to step in. Her goal in the situation was to remain unnoticed until the customer would have been happy with the very lowest offer they would have tried to give him.
3) By staying focused and ignoring the cashiers attempt to divert the situation. The customer kept being handed more and more power in the discussion, He ignored the ‘staying calm’ demand (which was made in a voice, as it usually is, that was much less calm than the customer’s tone) and made a connecting statement to calm down the cashier. He did not demand the impossible, and asked about ways to rectify the situation.
I personally think the customer did a masterful job of handling the situation. And to help further what I took out of this (especially the first 2 points) I would point out this cannot be the first time that someone has asked for a refund on an over $300 product at PetSmart, a lot of their products are much more expensive than that, and they must have procedures in place when those items are returned.
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I apologize in advance…but the post was written by a “satirist.”
A)why are you buying a DVD in the first place? Seems to me that gets one “poor” slowly
B)Never Been Kissed? Come on! Not worth it for free, much less $5.50. There is a reason it was on the discount shelf to begin with, and even more reason why it is no longer carried.
This is the second post today about blowing time, energy, and thought for a few bucks. What is with these people. You got screwed, get over it. Spending any more time other than throwing the DVD in the trash on restitution or resolution is only increasing your sunk cost into this product.
The principle is clouding the reality.
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Poor customer service at Fry’s? Perish the thought.
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Unless it’s one of the few movies that you or your kids will watch multiple times, I don’t understand why people buy DVDs regardless of the prices. First, that just means owning more junk to clutter your shelves. Second, it still seems like the most expensive way of watching movies other than going to movie theaters. Netflix ends up being much cheaper if you’re good about using the service. Or, the library is free. There are also internet sites where you can pay to watch movies for less than buying them.
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Not giving a return on a cheap CD: $5.50!
Publicity on the subject of how much your return policies suck on a very popular finance blog: priceless!
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Sometimes trying to save money you end up spending more. I didn’t want to pay full price for a video my daughter loves (one of the land before time series). So, bid and won on ebay. The first one it ran through once, but would not rewind and almost jammed my player. When I contacted the seller the seller first did not respond, and then sent a very insulting message, would not refund my money and preemptively posted negative feedback of me (my first one ever). It was baffling how agressively obnoxious this seller was (this was before they instituted sellers not leaving negative feedback). I won another bid for the video, pop it in, and someone had videotaped a soap opera over it!!! The seller did refund my money, but I still don’t have a working video of that episode.
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downloading is certainly breaking copyright laws, as you are only allowed to back up media you own, under fair use rules.
As for why buying DVDs? If it’s something you’ll watch more than once then it’s cheaper than renting, and life is about living and not depriving yourself of entertainment for the sake of saving.
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I don’t really get buying very much DVDs at all. We own maybe fifteen DVDs. I just don’t see the point of buying movies. Are you really going to watch it over and over?
But that’s beside the point. Target should refund your money.
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In the UK this would be illegal. There is statutory protection for consumers from defective goods. You would be entitled to your money back. This cannot be overridden by store policies.
I’m surprised you don’t have the same sort of thing in the US.
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@Angie
“If it wasn’t you could buy every DVD on the shelf, copy it on your DVD-burner, scratch it with a thumb tack and get a refund.”
You’re correct. But the article doesn’t say the DVD is scratched or cracked. It just doesn’t play. How can you copy a DVD that doesn’t play?
And after it is burned, there’s no way you can tinker with the DVD’s contents so it won’t play. Clearly, it was defective from the outset. Unethical of Target not to do something about it.
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Copying your own DVDs is Illegal too (in most cases). Nearly all commercial DVDs have CSS and Macrovision on them, two forms of DRM/content protection software.
Under the DMCA it is illegal to circumvent copy prevention systems for backup purposes.
Backing up DVDs is easy, and I’m not aware of any individual ever being prosecuted for doing so, but that doesn’t make it technically legal.
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If you’re trying to minimize your spending on movies, why aren’t you going to pawn shops?
Movies are cheap and the staff will let things like your situation slide because they RARELY have to follow the letter of corporate rulebook (IF its a corporate joint.)
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I think the lesson learned is not to shop at stores that have such a horrible customer service attitude. I had a few bad experiences with Target customer service and refuse to ever shop there again. I gave them the benefit of the doubt one too many times. Similar to your instance, the value to the store in my experiences was minimal yet there pathetic service made a huge impression on me. They now fail to earn from me all the revenue they would have in future purchases but made me very willing to share my negative attitude with others such as GRS.
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With regards to post #5, the law you mention only concerns NH. In reading the NH version of the UCC, they are a lot of “probably” and not many “absolute” right to return.
In my state of FL, FL law says you have 7 days to return unless the store posts a different policy. Now my county took it one step further and said the policy must be written with letters of 1/2 inch in size. Most retailers balked and posted a NO REFUNDS ALL SALES FINAL.
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I understand the author’s aggravation with the policy, but the line “stubborn or poorly trained employees.” bothers me. Why attack the employees? They were simply doing their job and what is required to keep said job.
So you automatically attack them as being poorly trained, when they are trained to keep you from returning a disc, and did so. Which makes them actually well trained. I’m simply upset that someone would take aggravation out on someone making $7.00 an hour and trying to keep a job in an unstable economy. This seems both mean spirited and unfair and a bit pretentious.
And while on the topic, this is the second straight “I got screwed by a company” post and I’m disappointed with that. Take these complaints to the company, the Better Business Bureau or The Consumerist and stop trying to pass off your anger as some form of personal finance advice.
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“I’m simply upset that someone would take aggravation out on someone making $7.00 an hour and trying to keep a job in an unstable economy. This seems both mean spirited and unfair and a bit pretentious.”
It’s kind of funny you mention that. I had a number of issues with a certain airline based in Detroit last summer and when I sent them an angry letter, I made it a clear point that I wasn’t upset at the employees but the fact that the airline forced them to carry out ridiculously inane policies. The airline’s response? They basically threw their own employees under the bus, and they gave me 6000 frequent flyer miles to apologize for the behavior of their employees (who were trained to behave that way). Ugh.
I actually go out of my way to pay extra for good customer service these days.
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What’s wrong about owning dvds? I have a passion for cinema* and yes, I’ve watched my favourite films several times and bought it on vhs first and then on dvd. The extra contents add value too, they can be a real gem.
*Excluding “Never been kissed”.
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Just get Netflix. How many times do you really think you’re going to watch ‘Never Been Kissed’?
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“With regards to post #5, the law you mention only concerns NH”
No, UCC has been adopted by ALL 50 states.
NO Florida retailer can force you to accept defective merchandise, regardless of what sign they post.
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When it gets to that point of where the store won’t refund a measly $5 under that type of rare circumstance, then the buyer is left no other option than to buy a non-serialized item in another store which is on sale for more than $5, and fraudulently return it to the Target at full retail price w/o original receipt to receive a gift receipt. Provided that the local inventory isn’t at 100% for that particular SKU, its transparent. Its wrong to do, but its also wrong for the store to not refund money for an opened DVD which doesn’t play.
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Take ‘em to small claims court. What does it cost to file in your jurisdiction? Can you recover that cost in settlement?
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It’s all in how things are written up.
I have a rental home that was vacated without my knowing it. Of course it was vandalized. Half of the wiring and copper tubing was stripped. All my appliances are gone.
I reported it to the police and then to my insurance company. This is the insurance companies stance as of yet. All the damage that was done was due to theft. I had to sign a special addendum to cover my rental home for theft. Of course this was never mentioned to me. So because this was theft and not vandalism I have no coverage.
As I told my insurance adjuster, it is time to get my attorney involved.
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Brandon @ 39,
The “poorly trained” line in my post was a reference to the fact that they are repeating a lie told them by their bosses, that the “no returns on DVDs, period” policy is not just store policy, but is also THE LAW.
It’s an outright falsehood, and you’re right, I don’t blame the employees for repeating it, since it’s what they were trained to say.
That’s what I am calling “poorly trained.”
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Why buy DVDs when you can rent them at Netflix for $17.99 per month (at least for the three-at-a-time deal? I own a few DVDs, but unless they are true classics like Monty Python movies, I rarely watch them more than once or twice.
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To each their own classics.
(Not that I wouldn’t include the Pythons!)
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I’ve gotten ticked off at Fry’s several times. The first time they wouldn’t honor a $10-20 price difference on a POST PRICE so I wrote a complaint and got 5 bucks which I though was cheezy. Next time I was looking for a particular line amplifier and found they really didn’t want to help me. Last time, I bought something there and they would not price match for me. I ended up returning the item and purchasing elsewhere but getting the rebate through FRYs.
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