Could Tithing Lead Some Americans to Lose Their Homes?
Sunday, 28th September 2008 (by J.D.)This article is about Choices, House and Home, News
Last week, USA Today featured an article on Christians who continue to tithe even as they face foreclosure.
Tithing is the practice of donating 10% of your gross income to your church. It’s not a common practice (only 5% of American adults tithe), but it’s important to those who choose to do so. It’s a component not just of Christianity, but other religions as well.
But what happens when tithing interferes with your ability to pay the mortgage? The USA Today article explores this conflict.
“I’ve had home owners who face foreclosure sitting in front of me saying, ‘I’ll do anything, anything to keep my home,” said Ozell Brooklin, director of Acorn Housing in Atlanta, a nonprofit which offers foreclosure counseling.
“But after we’ve gone through their monthly expenses and the only thing left to cut is their tithe, they say ‘I guess this home is not for me’ and they walk away,” he said.
The article discusses just how important this conviction is for some people, and how they’re willing to sacrifice their homes in order to continue tithing. “To stay current on the $500 monthly mortgage, [one woman] was faced with giving up a tithe to her local evangelical church of around $200 a month. Instead, she let the property go into foreclosure.”
For many people, tithing is the most important part of their budget. Even before the age-old admonition to “pay yourself first” (which means to set money aside into savings before paying your bills), these folks donate money to church or charity. There’s nothing wrong with this, but it can lead to financial decisions that most people never face.
But is tithing really the reason some people face foreclosure? Or is the financial distress a symptom of deeper problems?
Tithing is another reminder that financial decisions aren’t all about the numbers. Our personal convictions affect our choices. I frequently say that money is more about mind than it is about math; our decisions are influenced more by our psychology and emotions than they are by the arithmetic of the situation. But sometimes our financial decisions are also subject to other forces, such as religious beliefs and personal convictions.
Note: Get Rich Slowly does not take a stand on religious or political issues. I’m presenting this topic for discussion because I think it’s fascinating, not because I want to promote or denigrate any particular point of view. Although I don’t tithe to church or charity, I respect and admire those who do. Please be considerate in the comments.
I think that it is incredibly sad that, in this country, as rich as we are, that more people don’t give. My goal is to get up to giving 10% of my income to charity and In my opinion, if you don’t give, you don’t get it. What is life, if your not sharing your blessings? Why live, if its just about collecting the most money or toys? An important part of letting the importance of money go is to give freely.
On the other hand, the tithe issue with church, is likely some people thinking that somehow God will think less of them (to put it a nice way) or something like that. This is not biblically supported. It would be perfectly ok for someone to temporarily give up tithing to save a house, etc. Unfortunately some may be doing this because of group pressure too, especially if you go to a smaller church.
I’d rather have a roof over my head, than tithe. I don’t see how it’s part of any deities plan to have it’s followers destitute.
I don’t tithe, but I do make charitable donations. If my car is broken, I’ll spend the money I’d normally spend on donations on getting the car fixed. If I can’t get to a paying job to earn some money, the charity is going to be hurt more in the long term.
Agreed Solomon. I wonder if these folks consider the damage they are doing to the overall economy, and more directly to their neighbors when they decide to default on their obligations. There’s certainly nothing wrong with giving, but you also have to question an institution that would continue to accept donations from people who are clearly overextended.
Biblically speaking, the entire point of tithing is to show the Lord that we trust Him to care for us by putting our money where our mouth is, so to speak. A very large portion of the Bible deals with monetary issues, because God knew that money would be a sensitive topic with us.
Biblically, it makes sense to continue tithing, no matter what else happens to you financially (assuming, of course, that a person is a Christian and follows Biblical teachings). It’s very possible that God is using a financial situation to test a person’s faithfulness and willingness to trust Him, even to the point of losing a house. He promises to provide for our needs, but He doesn’t say he’ll salvage our pride in the process. In fact, His goal is completely the opposite.
Tithing is not necessarily 10% - that was Old-Testament. Under the New Testament, each person should give as we feel that God is leading us to give.
God will not be mocked. BUT tithing is the ONLY place in the Bible where God calls us to test Him. Malachi 3:10 says “‘Test me in this,’ says the LORD Almighty, ‘and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.’” This does not guarantee financial success - it is not a “Health and Wealth” Doctrine. However, there are many other ways that God can bless us (good health, close family ties, peace, contentment, and thousands of other things).
Tim, God will not love us any less if we choose not to give to the church, but He will hold us accountable for not doing what He asked us to do.
One last point that is often misquoted scripture - it is not “wrong” to be financially successful. MONEY is not the root of evil. 1 Timothy 6:10 says, “For the LOVE of money is a root of ALL KINDS of evil.” (emphasis mine) So, it may be true that God blesses people with large financial resources, but some of that is contingent on their willingness to trust Him financially even when times get tough.
I also find it strange that only 5% tithe, since I know so many that do. Thinking that god will think less of you or a church exerting pressure is simply bad theology. Every church I have ever attended had a ministry in place to help people going through messes like that- giving them the whole gambit of money, financial advice, food, even professional services to get them through. Part of it, though is being honest with your community to let them know you need help. I wonder if people that give a lot have a harder time taking charity. That’s a pride issue I guess.
When I was having tough times, I found alternate ways of tithing. I did things for my community, helped low-income children, etc. That was my way of giving to God. I think it was actually more effective than giving money to a church would have been.
Religious leaders aught to step in and advise their members to stop tithing temporarily until they get their finances in order. Certainly the church or at least the minister or reverend aught to know the situation of the congregation.
This tithing blindly like an imbecile is terrible because these people are literally led to believe that by tithing they’ll get back the blessings of “the lord” a thousand fold. How can I say this? What evidence do I have?
My grandmother. She’s always telling us about how she gave this (insert dollar amount here), and then it came back later that week, that month, that year by (insert a random multiplier). She literally believes that “god” grants her financial success based on her giving. It’s so sad. But when she looks at aunts and uncles in the family who’ve given and given and given and yet wind up in really awful financial shape, she cannot attribute that to “god”. No no no. It’s the work of the “devil”. I am seriously not making this up.
In my family we donate to UNICEF. I further donate whenever there is a cause I deem worthy. But I know also that when I am down and out it’s time to stop donating and start plugging the old financial seep holes and cracked pipes to keep the monetary house from flooding.
I think if you let personal convictions send you into foreclosure you damn well deserve that foreclosure. Period.
Couldn’t agree more with Sammy, if you’re gonna loose your home and tithing is the only thing you have left to cut back you should do it, God doesn’t wanna you to be homeless. We must remember there is one more way to tithe: with our TIME. Help someone out to repair their home, impart some free classes to the children of your community, start a church choir or book reading club! And as Sammy said that would be more effective.
I find it pretty interesting that people who are faithful tithers have problems with losing their homes. I agree with the idea of tithing completely, but I think that somewhere in there someone’s missing the point. The church is supposed to help people in need, so if members of their community are in trouble, the people of the church should be helping. I’m sure there are lots of individual situations with lots of different issues involved, but if a person is a member of a church community to the point that they are not just showing up but also giving money I believe that they should be included as a member of the community on the receiving end of assistance. Great discussion.
I used to attend a church that strongly encouraged a strict 10% tithing; however, in return, if you found yourself in financial distress, the church’s deacons would provide you with financial counseling and assistance with necessary expenses like housing and food (funded by other church members’ tithes). I always thought that was a nice return to a New Testament-like “let’s all take care of each other” mindset.
If people wouldn’t buy the MAXIMUM amount of house they can possibly afford, they would have more wiggle room when things happen. Buy a house that is a little LESS than you can afford. Same for a car. That’s my philosophy.
Tithing is such a sensitive subject among many Christians. Many who tithe do not give the 10% the Lord asks. Others tithe with a grudging heart.
For my family, we are only stewards of the resources God has blessed us with, no matter how small or large. To return 10% of those blessings to the Lord’s work is not a suggestion, but a commandment and we should do so with joy in our hearts as that money will be used to benefit those who are much less fortunate.
Without fail, and even when our tithing funds where nearly all the money we had, by giving with a heart of gratitude and generosity, the Lord has never ceased to provide my family’s needs. Granted, we may not own our home and we certainly do not have the nicest things, but as Christians, we are to store up our treasures in Heaven, not here on earth.
What benefit will money and worldly possessions be if we are not willing to follow our Lord’s commandments and serve him in all our affairs? For myself, when I stand in front of my maker, I want to know in my heart that I did my very best to serve the Lord, even though I fall short on a daily basis.
Even if I am wrong in my beliefs and there turns out to be nothing after death, then the legacy of helping those who were less fortunate that I want to leave behind is far more valuable than worldly possessions or having a big house that I honestly don’t need.
IMHO, what Christians should be asking themselves regarding tithing is, “Do I really need the worldly possessions or do I need to store up my treasures in Heaven?” Besides, if many Christians were honest with themselves, they have the 10% available, they just choose to spend it on other things like gaming consoles, take-out, clothes shopping and vacations. If we are to serve the Lord, we must be willing to sacrifice these worldly pleasures and give with a joyful heart.
I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly referred to as Mormons) and it’s part of our doctrine to not only tithe 10% but to fast once a month and make offerings to feed the poor using the money we would have spent on three meals.
And it’s not optional. It’s God’s commandment. He gives us all we have, and asks that we give back 10% of it to the Church specifically for its work, not simply to charities as we see fit.
For some of us, God’s law is way more important than a house we can not otherwise afford. I’d rather find a cheap rental than not give back to God what He’s given me.
First off, kudos J.D. for opening a topic so neutrally. I can’t see many people referring to this article without taking a hardline stance one way or the other. Though I’m strongly opinionated on this matter, I’ll do my best to follow suit:
10% of gross is an enormous part of your income. This is pre-tax– after federal and state taxes, payroll deductions for health insurance, etc, 10% of your gross can easily be 20% of your take-home pay.
When a bank approves you for a loan, they (should) look at your entire financial situation to make the decision. Obviously, they’ve made some recent poor decisions, but it seems that both the lender and the borrower have been working together to try to loan as much money as possible.
With a consistently tithing borrower, it’s unlikely that the lender knows about this expense, and the borrower is probably not going to disclose more information to lessen their chance of approval.
As everyone was operating on razor-thin approvals as it is, I would imagine that expenses like this (I’m sure there are others) that don’t easily show up on a credit report can increase the likelihood that someone is approved for a loan they can’t afford down the road.
That chart you linked is interesting, JD. I’m a cradle Catholic but have never been to a church which mentioned 10% (or any percentage). Maybe it’s a US thing, trying to compete with the Protestants and their tithes.
If you’re giving 10% in good times to your church as opposed to a charity, the whole point is for it to be available in terms of whatever financial help and advice they give when you need it, right? I hope those people are at least asking.
Damsel makes a good point. If you think your financial difficulties are a test from God, which you would fail if you fail to tithe, it’s more understandable that you would continue. Like most of the responders, I try to give generously both in time and money. When things get tight,though, the money part of my donation dries up until I become more solvent.
I know one couple who was going through a financial crisis and was facing the option of either reducing their tithe or let themselves fall behind on the bills, rent, etc. After much prayer and consulting with others, they decided to reduce their tithe but increase the time they were spending volunteering and helping out the church. This way, they were still showing respect to God and the church, but also respecting the people and the community around them by not falling behind on bills or going onto public assistance. Once the crisis passed, they increased their giving back to the previous level.
I think this was a good solution to the problem. Yes, not giving to God/charity/deity of your choice isn’t a good thing; but not fulfilling your obligations to others isn’t a good thing either.
Great comments so far, everyone. Thank you for sharing and for staying on topic.Tim gets at an interesting point with the very first comment:
I think that it is incredibly sad that, in this country, as rich as we are, that more people don’t give. My goal is to get up to giving 10% of my income to charity and In my opinion, if you don’t give, you don’t get it. What is life, if your not sharing your blessings? Why live, if its just about collecting the most money or toys? An important part of letting the importance of money go is to give freely.
I’ll be honest: I do not tithe to church or charity. I feel guilty about this. And yet I don’t. It’s something I feel I should do, and yet I’m so incredibly protective of what I have. My rationale is always: “Once I take care of myself, I’ll take care of other people.” Yet what do I mean by “taking care of myself”? I don’t know.
Sometimes I think “once I’ve saved X, then I’ll start sharing my wealth”, but X seems to be a moving target.
Anyhow, this is an issue I wrestle with, and it’s something I have to work out for myself…
I look forward to further interesting (and civil!) comments on this topic…
I agree with much that has been said. If you strongly believe in tithing, you need to be cautious in taking on other obligations. If you are in need, you need to speak with your local pastor.
She should have at least talked to her congregation and explained the situation. I’m sure they would’ve tried to help her with the house.
The bible spoke of helping those in need within the congregation financially, so he one with little does not have too little. (2 Corithians 8:12-15) It’s about being balanced. You should be able to turn to your congregation f you are having a hard time putting a roof over your head.
“To stay current on the $500 monthly mortgage, [one woman] was faced with giving up a tithe to her local evangelical church of around $200 a month. Instead, she let the property go into foreclosure.”
Does this mean she had $2000 in income a month? Was she carrying a big amount of debt or maybe medical bills? I have no idea.
I feel like not being able to pay your mortgage vs tithing is a money management problem. It doesn’t have to be an either or situation. If she wanted to do both, maybe increasing her income would help.
Good topic JD!
I find it interesting that people that make the least often give the highest percentage of their incomes to charity (http://como.typepad.com/community_mobilization/2005/12/charitable_givi.html) . DH and I have always given generously (even when we didn’t make much) and each year we increase it by .5%. We don’t donate to a church, we give to an organization that provides education to poor children in other countries.
If these people can’t afford their homes and their tithes, they like most Americans probably bought too much house, or they’re wasting their money elswhere. I think that tithing was one way God wants to teach us about the value of budgeting your money, if you set aside 10% for God then the rest will be sufficient.
I don’t necessarily agree that “your financial difficulties are a test from God” most often their a result of your own stupidity and lack of restraint. I’m sure most people have many places to cut back rather than tithing (cellphones, cable, eating expensive pre-packaged foods, driving here there & everywhere, dollar store crap, etc.). We are the richest people in the world, even the poor in this country are very wealthy by worldly standards, if we can’t give to help others than where does that leave us?
I faithfully tithe 10% of gross every month, and yet, I am also aware of God’s admonition against borrowing money. The lady who let the bank foreclose her house showed integrity in one commandment (tithe) and showed duplicity in another (paying your obligations). God also tells us to not cheat, steal, or lie. Failing to pay a debt is the same as cheating, stealing, or lying.
I am not trying to judge this lady. She found herself in a tough situation. However, I don’t think its a good practice to be “good” in one area and “bad” in another.
If I were her, I would temporarily suspend tithing, work to sell the house (including a short sale if necessary), pray for guidance on how to avoid stupid financial decisions in the future, and then live like no one else so that I can tithe like no one else.
Finally, when people come to me for advice on how to get out of debt, I have no problem recommending the partial suspension of tithe for the 10-12 months it would take to finish the debt snowball. This recommendation is based on the principle that having huge amounts of credit card debt while faithfully tithing is the same as borrowing money to tithe to the church. The Bible does not say that you should borrow money money to give money. However, I only recommend the suspension of tithe when they’ve cut EVERYTHING else out and are truly living on rice and beans.
This is the first time I read a post about this and I must congratulate you for doing such a job, without any bias. I did not regret when I subscribe to you.
Anyway, there are many kinds of Christians and this tithing issue has been an issue for a lot of debates, for centuries I guess.
But the point is if you believe in something, go for it. If you think it’s right then do it. Save money for it and consider it as a tax, or deduct it automatically even before payday.
Just my 2 cents.
i thought that god also helped those who helped themselves. giving up your home (which, at $500/mo is probably not extravagant- i can’t get a 1br apartment for that) willingly and choosing to instead rely on the support of others temporarily does not strike me as the most responsible decision for yourself or your community support network.
what if health insurance was on the chopping block? accidents and illnesses happen to good people every day.
i’m really curious because i can’t comprehend a mandated tithe. at what point do your own financial obligations and protecting your family come first? when you can’t afford to eat?
I do not believe choosing to pay tithes despite going through tough economic times is a contributing factor to the problem of people losing their homes.
I also do not tithe, and I used to feel guilty about it. I am going through some tough times financially (key point, “going through” and not “in”) but I don’t believe it’s because I’m being punished for not tithing. If I’m being punished for anything, it’s for making bad financial decisions and poor planning, lessons I’m learning the hard way. Through this current economic crisis, both personal and with the nation as a whole, I have re-learned the importance of not becoming attached to material posessions and not falling in that trap of “keeping up with the Joneses”.
Since I value my time much more than my money now, I get more out of spending an hour or two a week with my kids at the SPCA, or other worthy local charity, than dropping a few bucks in a bucket once a month.
I admire those whose moral and personal convictions are stronger than external forces such as the economy and continue to give.
I also feel that you have to recognize that the mortgage one signs up for is an obligation too. What good is it for someone to tithe and then go back on their word (contract)?
We give by choice and include it in our budget. I agree with many that money is just one way to give. Time is a great resource and many charities would appreciate it.
at what point do your own financial obligations and protecting your family come first? when you can’t afford to eat?
I am a person who pays a 10% tithing. I believe that doing so IS protecting my family. It’s giving them God’s protection, although I get that this is a concept that not all will share or agree with. Still, it’s my choice and an important one in my life.
The flip side of this is that I belong to a religion with a huge welfare program because of our tithing program. If I can’t feed my family, my church will. If we can’t buy groceries, my church has welfare centers around the country that will give me the food we need. If I can’t pay my rent/mortgage, the church will do so (for quite a long time too - as people taking advantage of this is a real problem).
I pay my tithe for spiritual reasons. But because I do, we (as a religion) are able to take care of own and do a great deal for people not of our faith.
Again, this is not why I pay. That choice is between God and I. But it does have a practical side as well.
JD, you say, “My rationale is always: “Once I take care of myself, I’ll take care of other people.” Yet what do I mean by “taking care of myself”? I don’t know. Sometimes I think “once I’ve saved X, then I’ll start sharing my wealth”, but X seems to be a moving target. ”
I know an awful lot of sad, lonely seniors who waited to have children until they could afford them (citing the magazines estimates of cost per child) and ended up waiting too long. X is indeed a moving target. Putting off living until X arrives is a hazardous practice.
There are joys beyond the financial in giving with a cheerful heart. Tithing or giving to charity won’t get you into heaven, but it will make your life here much more rich!
God doesn’t need my 10%. He already owns it all. He asks me to return 10% to Him to teach me something.
What a fitting subject for a Sunday!
I too, am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Like Emily C, above).
Although Tithing is a commandment, and that is one of the reasons I pay my tithing, it is not the primary reason. For my entire life, I have faithfully paid my tithing. I have done so because of the many times that I have been in poor conditions, and thought I wouldn’t be able to make ends meet, yet have somehow been able to do so… and then some.
I’ve invested nearly $4,000 in retirement this year. Every time I’ve budgeted, I’ve paid my tithing first, and retirement, emergency savings and child’s college second. After all that, my budget comes out $200 - $300 short, yet I never, ever have a problem meeting my obligations, don’t draw down my savings, OR use credit. Between tithing, retirement, other savings and payroll deductions for taxes, etc, I usually have less than 50% of my annual income left for our budget.
Can’t explain it in earthly terms, but to me, it isn’t even an option not to.
I’ve found that if I give for the benefit of others first, that I am always taken care of. My wife and child don’t suffer for it.
Giving substantially, whether a ‘tithe’ or otherwise: whether money or skills or resources, is an open acknowledgement that we are part of a larger whole. Giving informs other values and brings them in line. Clearly, for some, the psychological/emotional benefit of having a large component of giving in one’s life outweighs a lot of financial concerns.
The problem is with financial markets that push people to the nth degree of their financial ability to procure shelter.
thanks.
“when they decide to default on their obligations.”
Mortgage lenders have security - the house.
Letting it go into foreclosure is indeed fulfilling their obligation - borrowers are obliged to continue to pay the mortgage, OR let the lender take possession of the house.
The largest state (California) explicitly prohibits any deficiency judgements on a first mortgage loan - the lender knows up front their sole recourse is foreclosure.
Many other states prohibit wage garnishments for private creditors, so even if deficiency judgements are not explicitly prohobited, mortgage lenders know that foreclosing on the house is ultimately the only real recourse they have against the borrower.
Even if this lady has $2000/month in income, we don’t know what other money issues she has (e.g. sudden illness)
I thought my mom had a decent income until she became ill and had to spend her remaining life in a nursing home (not cheap)
I pay a 10% tithe ‘religiously’.
I do believe that the Lord will take care of you in unforeseen ways if you do. Maybe not in immediate returns but throughout your lifetime.
One reason I like to pay tithing is because it makes me value the other 90% so much more. When you’ve given away a good chunk of your income, you make sure you don’t squander the remainder of it (at least for me.)
And I’d also add, losing your house isn’t the end of the world. Sure it’s huge. But in the grand scheme of things, and I mean grand, it’s only a blip on the radar. Thats how I try to look at things.
Unbelievable.
Well, you learn something new every day.
I see some confusion on the comments here between tithing and giving your time and talents to the community. These are two separate actions that every christian should participate in. Volunteering is not a substitute for tithing; just as tithing extra is not a substitute for not volunteering. This is where the roman catholic church got in trouble with indulgences, and the issue with indulgences was included in the proclamation from Martin Luther about the items in the church that needed to change.
JD - Another correction to the word tithe; while it is correct that the Bible recommends 10% of your income to go to charitable causes it is not necessary that it all goes to the church. Many churches make a recommendation on how your tithe should be divided (ex: 5% church and 5% other causes) I have never heard of a church asking for the entire 10%.
Peggy - I am glad to hear someone that has the same attitude. God owns all of the material possessions in my life, as we are good stewards with what he gives us to take care of he will entrust us with more. If we are poor stewards he will take back the things that are His in the first place
The clergy still wants your money and obedience. But hey, at least they let you read your scriptures yourself now! How nice of them.
I’m just curious - here in Canada, charitable givings (including tithes to your church) are tax deductible. The percentage of that claim increases if the giving is over $200. Giving can actually have the effect of reducing your income and lowering your tax. Is this not the case in the US?
I’m holding a couple of comments in moderation because they’re intentionally provocative and contribute nothing to the conversation. If the writers want to rephrase their comments, I’ll be happy to approve them. Otherwise, I’ll hold them until tomorrow.
Again, GRS doesn’t take a position on topics like this, but I’m not going to let a fine discussion degenerate into the same argument you can find on thousands of other sites. For once, I’m going lend a heavy hand in moderating comments.
“If you’re giving 10% in good times to your church as opposed to a charity, the whole point is for it to be available in terms of whatever financial help and advice they give when you need it, right?”
There seems to be a little confusion about what a tithe is actually used for. Its use extends far beyond simply providing financial support to the church congregation. It’s also used for missionary support, building upkeep, and paying clergy salaries. Keep in mind that this is THE income stream of a church - without it, they simply can’t afford to operate.
One thing that does surprise me is that the financial discipline it takes to consistently tithe doesn’t appear to influence other financial decisions. For instance, I would expect a consistent tither to also be a consistent saver.
One would have to keep the utmost belief in their faith to keep tithing in the face of despair of becoming homeless. These firm believers need to talk to their church elders as earlier posts have suggested.
BJC, yes under current US tax codes charitable giving to a recognized non profit are tax deductible. I believe the woman in the articles problem was month to month bills, not year end money.
Can we take a look for a minute to ask why someone took out a loan for exactly 25 percent of her income, before taxes? This is not including Federal, State, Medical, 401k, utilities, property taxes, and home maintenance.
The issue that shines through here is the woman refusing to give up her contributions to her church. The sad (and underlying) truth is this woman was set up for failure and even if she did stop giving to her church she would most likely have lost her home anyways.
Point of clarification on the quoted example in the post. It’s unintentionally misleading. The article includes a bit more info:
Ingram said one of her clients was a 68-year-old woman who obtained a $62,000 mortgage on behalf of her daughter. When her daughter stopped paying the mortgage this spring, the woman was stuck with payments since her name was on the loan contract
So, it’s not her home. That’s a minor point, though, since it’s essentially her home. She paid for it, even if she’s not living there. And, as others have noted, she was setting herself up for failure (even though it was obviously through kindness…)
I am not religious, and don’t tithe. But I was raised to give a portion of my money to charity. I don’t give 10%, but I do make a monthly payment (set up via bill pay) to a small non-profit that I support, and I donate about $200-350 around the holidays to a local women’s shelter. I also make small contributions randomly throughout the year…usually when I feel as though I’m becoming too wrapped up in my own “problems” (which are nothing compared to what other people are dealing with).
Everyone makes financial decisions based on their own set of priorities…but these stories remind me of the stories of parents refusing medical treatment for their children, since everything should be “left in the hands of God.” But as I said, I am not religious so I see things from a different perspective.
J.D., you did an excellent job presenting this, and I’m also impressed by the level of discussion here (among the comments posted, anyway). There ARE different viewpoints, but everyone’s been able to discuss them rationally and without namecalling. Kudos!
I think giving is important, but not necessarily complying with a strict tithing regulation. I don’t think Jesus would want us to follow a strict law like that in the face of financial crisis. Some people can give more, and some people less.
J.D., if you do want to start giving regularly, start with something small, like $5 or $10 per month. A lot of people make a practice of giving the same amount that they put into savings, but it sounds like that may not work for you.
I think it’s worth noting that if you can’t afford your house after your tithe, that a foreclosure might be a blessing in disguise. Not all blessings are initially clear.
Kathleen McDade writes: J.D., if you do want to start giving regularly, start with something small, like $5 or $10 per month. A lot of people make a practice of giving the same amount that they put into savings, but it sounds like that may not work for you.
Brilliant. So obvious, and yet I never would have thought of it. Thank you, Kathleen.
October 15th is Blog Action Day. The subject this year is poverty. I’ve been trying to think about how to approach it, but I think I might write about charitable giving. And I think that Kathleen’s idea might be a great intro. In many ways, it’s similar to the concept of learning to save or to pay off debt by setting aside just a few dollars at a time, and then gradually, as you build those muscles, doing more.
We have a societal problem. We encourage constant spending. Credit is free and easy. Americans are not fiscally responsible or disciplined. They obligate themselves financially beyond their means to withstand an extended economic hardship.
We need to teach and train fiscal responsibility now. So if someone chooses to tithe they understand implications on their ability to obtain a certain mortgage size and their ability to continue to pay that mortgage given economic instability.
Although our politicians, businesses, and organizations like Acorn have made substantial contributions to our current problem, the root of it is our own willingness to extend ourselves beyond our means.
Another interesting aspect which may be considered is the type of recipient of the tithe. Some are directly connected to church and not to “general charity”. Not saying “should or could be” either/or as debated above, but considered as applied to individuals.
Some churches, especially small independent evangelical ones, depend solely on church-members tithes to exist. There is no large association behind them, paying the minister, providing the church. The congregation does.
It may not be a choice between UNICEF and house but a choice between church and house, or the minister’s salary or room and board. I mean the small town, sincere “men of the cloth”, not the “God said send me your money” televangelist. The guys who are minister, adviser, mediator, therapist, brother/sister, mother/father–friend and family, to whole communities. And to some, that is simply a non-debate, right, wrong, or indifferent.
I think the concept of tithing is a little outdated, as governments now provide some of the social services that churches used to provide. (I’m not saying they do a better job than churches.) I’m in the 15% tax bracket (I think- according to wikipedia- $8,026 – $32,550 income per year), so I’m already paying 15% of my income to the government in taxes. That money’s used for infrastructure, social services, etc. like a tithe would be
Sure, government isn’t as “good” as the church, but I’m also not religious and I certainly wouldn’t want my money supporting an organization that went around telling people what to believe.
I want to increase my charitable giving once I have a real job, but I do think we should at least consider that taxes and tithes as relatively similar in terms of their functions, when you leave spirituality out of it.
“I’ll be honest: I do not tithe to church or charity. I feel guilty about this. And yet I don’t. It’s something I feel I should do, and yet I’m so incredibly protective of what I have. My rationale is always: “Once I take care of myself, I’ll take care of other people.” Yet what do I mean by “taking care of myself”? I don’t know.
Sometimes I think “once I’ve saved X, then I’ll start sharing my wealth”, but X seems to be a moving target. ”
Maybe you just don’t want to, and you feel a little guilty because of it.
I don’t donate either. It’s a personal and private thing, and no one’s business but your own (and your deity’s/church’s, if you believe in that).
I think people tithing isn’t the problem. The problem is committing to too much money wise. Tithing is great, but you have to cut back a bit in lifestyle to do it. People have been stretching themselves beyond what is wise to get a house they think they need and there’s not room for the house in the budget let alone a tithe. I was “taught” to take the tithe off the top and make a budget on the rest. I hope people can learn to do this if it’s important to them to tithe.
Dittos to Laura, Aaron and Stan!
My employer contributes significantly to a local charity, with one of our biggest fund-raisers being an annual auction. On an individual level, they have set up a very clever contribution scheme: we are permitted to wear jeans once a week for ‘casual’ day, but we contribute $5 each time we do so. At the end of the year, we get a tax receipt for the total. Wearing jeans is totally optional, so no one is obligated to donate. However, because we are contributing to something we might do anyway, it makes the process all the more effective.
I can only admire those who are able to so concisely prioritize their financial spending. If giving up ownership of a home in order to contribute to your faith community is in keeping with your values, others should respect that choice.
I am not advocating homelessness or dependence on public assistance in order to keep giving a tithe, but if you move from a 4-bedroom house to a 2-bedroom apartment so that you can continue to tithe, that appears to me to be a values-led decision, and a financially responsible one.
There are plenty of homeowners out there who are facing foreclosure but still have 2 cars, cable TV, new clothes and dinners out. These are also values-led decisions.
And while less than 5% of Americans tithe, a far larger percentage give to charity on a regular basis.
Tithing and other acts of faith are a concrete act of financial humility and selflessness, a concept foreign in an increasingly secular and economically frightened society.
At the heart of it, faith-based tithing is a commitment of giving back to God a share of what God gave to us. That giving (tithing and other charitable giving in a community) is the source of a great deal of resources rescuing those in over their heads. I received many thousand dollars from my church when I was laid off and going through a divorce simultaneously. I know what giving and receiving both feel like, and there is a great deal of humilty in both acts.
Humans like to believe that they are in control of much more than is actually in their control. Tithing represents the saving grace of giving and receiving charity that isn’t earned but is given freely anyway. If one attempts to understand it solely in terms of finances one can’t possibly see its value.
In the Psalms, God says: “I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.” God owns everything, and yet He still asks us to tithe. As a Christian, I truly believe that God does own the cattle on a thousand hills, and so any money I have is only because God was gracious to me (even if I “earned” it at my job). Because I believe it is already His, it is not a burden or a struggle to give back ten percent.
Like others have said in some comments before me, the Bible doesn’t teach that God will bless you in proportion to your tithe. We tithe because it requires us to trust in the God who is bigger than the economy, Ben Bernanke, loan officers and mortgages.
As Christians, we place our hope in these words from Psalm 37: “I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread. They are always generous and lend freely; their children will be blessed.”
I’m a pastor. I teach people to give and that this is a function of learning to live within their means. I only make $50k/year and I regularly give 25% of my income to church, charity, etc. But in living like that, I have no debts, my home is totally paid for (worth $350k). My wife and I also have more than the average number of kids (6) and we’re not living on someone else’s income. I’ve learned an important lesson, you can’t outgive God…. But I don’t expect that to make sense to everyone.
I don’t give that information above as a way of bragging. I simply say, that when American’s learn to stop living on credit and live within their means, the sky is the limit and it’s surprising what can really happen in people’s lives in the way they can give and help others.
Just my 2 cents….
I’m a member of the LDS church and I believe that EVERYTHING I have in my life is because of the Lord. 10% of our family’s income is the least we can give after all He has done for us, even if that means some of our other debts go unpaid for the time being. It takes tremendous faith to make that decision when faced with financial difficulty. We have been there, yes even when facing foreclosure, and we have been blessed because we followed the commandment of tithing and were able to avoid that pitfall.
I believe wholeheartedly that through faithfulness we will be blessed in ways that have much more importance and eternal consequence than just finances. I am inspired by stories of people who live their faith so completely, that they will give up their greatest possessions to follow the gospel. I think that is amazing.
J.D. I’m a Christian and I do give my 10%. Though this would go extremely well towards my bills and obligations, I have another obligation which takes priority and that is my dues to God. In the bible we read about times where we will be “tested” to ascertain just how strong our faith is in our beliefs. Some Christians have reneged on their oath, but the steadfast ones are adhering regardless of foreclosure. In Canada we do get a tax rebate but it’s nothing substantial. The question that most have on their mind is, “do I favour my temporary house on Earth, vs. my mansion in heaven”. With the current trade deficit reaching nearly 6.9Trillion we are headed for rough times ahead. Further Reading
We’ve run into a similar situation, in that my husband lost his job recently–2/3 of the household income gone. Two factors have turned this into a stress-free, semi-leisurely search for new–and better– employment:
1) 6 months ago, I became insanely committed to getting our finances in order. The fed government funded my brand new emergency fund, via the economic stimulus. I read a ton of stuff, we cut spending, started saving, and committed ourselves to a weekly spending plan.
2) The 11.5% of our gross income we normally give away. New Testament doesn’t state ten percent, it states generously. So we started small (3%) and steadily increased as we made more money. Not a lot, we’re talking $65K a year, but disgustingly wealthy by world standards. My feeling is that 10 is a lot of money at low income, and a drop in a bucket at high income. If you’re making 500,000, are you really missing that 50K? Is it hard to live on 450K? Really, I’m curious.
We did call our church and cut our giving back temporarily until we’re fully employed again. It’s minimal now, not non-existent, and as soon as we’re employed we’ll stick to that bare bones budget and replenish the amount we missed, along with our savings if need be. Other folks are making up part of our giving for us, too, on top of their own.
But I look at this as a gift to our family; because we were doing without this money already, we aren’t even close to being as stressed as we would have been. Because we were on track starting six months ago, we were more prepared than we’d ever been for something like this. I am a Christian, and I do believe God knew what was on the horizon, even though it was a total shock to us. I thought at the time I might have been going overboard with how intense I was about finances… but apparently I was as intense as we would need me to be six months down the road.
What it boiled down to was with a bare bones budget and giving downsized, savings on hold, we were short 500 bucks a month. 500 bucks! That amazed me.
Giving away money–a generous amount of money–I consider to be a protection, against greed, against living above your means, and now against unemployment. Sure, had we been saving that much, the situation would have been the same. But I don’t think saving alone puts the same kind of hedge around the greed that can lead to financial ruin in the first place. And parting with money keeps you mindful of how much you have in the first place. All that is beyond what it can do for others…
(And I am sorry I didn’t have the time to write a short comment. I have to plan a budget for October.)
I have been a Christian and studier of the Bible for over twenty years. I did a comprehensive study of the tithe ever since attending evangelical churches that made it out to sound like God’s curse is upon those that do not tithe (an idea taken from the Old Testament book of Malachi). I investigated the entire use of the tithe because I think everyone should investigate and not blindly follow church leaders. Also, when something could possibly be manipulation it is a good idea to investigate. After studying the Bible, I found that all mentions except one of the Biblical tithe are in the Old Testament. The onlt mention in the New Testament was by Jesus (before there was an established Christian church) responding to a Jew who told him that he tithed and did a lot of noble things and wanted to know what else he needed to do. Jesus replied that yes, he should tithe, but also not neglect to love. So Jesus appears to endorse tithing at least for the Jews. Now for some history of the tithe… The tithe was instituted so there would be plenty of food in the Temple. Why? Because one of the twelve tribes of Israel (the Levites) were not allowed to work for pay. They were to take care of the Temple and live off the 10% offerings of the other tribes. It was, in essence, the national tax of Israel. This explains why Christians were never commanded to tithe. Even the Apostle Paul, who admitted to being a strict Pharisee and therefore had to be a tither, never preached tithing in his epistles to the churches. He knew there was no one Christian temple and certainly no tribe (or race) of people that needed financial dependence for maintaining such a structure. In 2 Corinthians 9:7, Paul instructs us to give what God has purposed in our hearts. So should Christians tithe? One thing for certain: No one should be telling Christians they must tithe. Jesus definitely spoke against witholding money from someone that is owed money. Not paying the mortgage payment when the money is available sounds like not paying a debtor to me. So can a person tithe, yet be sinning? Hmmm… sounds like it, doesn’t it? Are pastors and church leaders sinning when they guilt people into paying tithes? Yes, if they are manipulating people for their own gain. No, if they are truly duped into believing that the practice is God’s command. But pastors and church leaders should know everything that I have researched to be true. And yes, I have witnessed people who faithfully tithed amidst personal finanical crises who lost homes and businesses and filed for bankruptcy. Shame on the churches who did not help these poor, gullible givers. I hope my response has liberated a lot of Christians who still continue to give generously to a good institution without hurting their debtors and their families in whom they are also indebted. Or possibly a neighbor in need if they feel led to help them out one week instead of their church. The Old Testament Temple was a building, the New Testament Church is the people, not a building. Finally… if the United States ever wants to abolish their current tax code and replace it with ancient Israel’s 10% flat tax, I’m all for it! I’ll have more money to give elsewhere!
I’m not religious. I certainly support generosity, and generously did I give…when I had the money. For well over a year I’ve been insolvent, and sometimes I still manage to a give a little, but I figure, no one will be able to benefit from me if I become one of those in need. The idea that, if I act irrationally in a crisis, I will be rewarded, is one of the (many) things about religion that I think is…bad. There. I said it. It’s bad.
If tithing is the difference in losing or keeping a house they probably shouldn’t have purchased that expensive of a house in the first place. (With the obvious exception of for those who’s circumstances have changed since purchase.)
I hope if I were ever in that situation that I would choose tithing over keeping a house. In the end if 10% of your income is the difference in keeping the house or not, then you probably aren’t going to be able to keep it anyway.
Excellent post JD
This very subject has been in the back of my mind for quite a while. You see inspite of being long term Christians we’ve never had the cash to give tithe beyond a bit of hit and miss. When my wife and I started attending church again after a long sojourn we both made a decision that we would start giving tithe, we like Melanie started off small and slowly increased it as our faith increased. An amazing thing started as our giving increased, our money started going further and further, at first my Wife wasn’t so sure but after a year of steadily increasing our tithe (still haven’t hit 10% yet) she’s become convinced and said to go for the whole shot. I’m not quite read to set up a standing order (still prefer to write the cheque control thing) but I’m getting there.
OK what about the “what abouts”
Those that give tithe and suffered for it? Well I’d answer it 3 ways.
1. A bit of common sense please!!!!!
I was discussing tithing with a friend who was very big into tithing when he made a comment, ” on occasion when money was tight we cut back but always made up for it latter” in other words he knew he had an obligation to pay his bills, so before buying that “42 HD Ready Flat Screen” he made sure his tithe was paid up.
2. God deals with each person as an individual
I really struggled with how much to share our “tithing” experience as the same time we are being blessed our cleaning lady (a Christian) is struggling greatly Spain goes through a major economic crisis. Why is God blessing us and not her?
I wish I could say that each Christian that gives tithe gets richer, better looking, more popular etc etc but it just doesn’t work that way. All I know is that God deals with us as individuals.
3. God blesses us in different ways, our Pastors Richard and Reijke don’t have much nice, all of there money and time is spent helping others, yet inspite of having a low income high rent and feeding large groups of visitors every week (try hosting a large BBQ every week and see what it does to your food budget) they never seem to run short.
On the issue of 10%
I think Billy Graham put it best. When asked about tithing, he said “ Most Christians find 90% goes further than 100%
I couldn’t agree more.
JD thanks for moderating the comments I really want to hear what people think both positive and negative
My family gives 10% of our gross income to our church. Our church also emphasizes strongly that we should always live within our means and not go into debt unless it is absolutely necessary. To me that translates into being frugal and knowing where your money is going. If you can’t afford it … don’t take it on. That will only cause heartache and unhappiness.
We moved out here to LA three years ago and I suppose we could have jumped into the housing fray; no one would have asked for money down or credit history or anything. We could have signed a paper and “owned” a $400K house, but we knew we couldn’t pay for it, so we rented a place instead. It’s not ideal, I’d love a house, but we can’t afford it.
Just because I exist doesn’t mean I’m owed a house, or a nice car I can’t afford, or whatever. Instead of thinking about what I’m owed, I acknowledge that everything I have comes from God (and I have a lot). Then I pay my tithing and use the rest of money I have left as responsibly as I can. It brings me happiness and peace to live this way.
I appreciate the respectful way you have created & kept this discussion going, JD. Props to you.
The problem is that tithe money for many people is not money you can move around on a spreadsheet. It is simply not _their_ money. When someone is told that they can fend off foreclosure by not tithing then that really translates to: Steal from God. Some would consider that irrational behavior, but I’m reminded that no one person can determine rational behavior for his neighbor. Indeed, it requires omniscience to understand what is objectively rational.
I do not believe that there is any Biblical basis for tithing. I spent several years studying the issue and I wrote a lengthy article about the topic. Please email me at kmtesq@aol.com if you would like a copy of the article. You can also find it on my myspace page at http://www.myspace.com/talleyesq The article is entitled “Am I A Thief: An Examination of Whether Tithing is Required By Christians)–under the blog section.
Before addressing the topic at hand, I wanted to say in summary what my Christian view is on tithing because it also sheds light on my response to this topic. I believe that churches who teach tithing are not teaching their congregants to live like true Christians in spiritual union with Jesus Christ. This is because the tithing doctrine contradicts the New Covenant and diminishes the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christians are taught to put our faith in tithing as the source of our protection from evil/bad things/Satan and as a source of our blessings from God. This is directly contrary to what the Word of God tells us about our source of power from God based upon the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ. There is numerous biblical support for this position.
Aside from the religious point of view, people who choose to tithe instead of pay their mortgage, as one of the posters indicated, do severe harm to our economy and their neighbors by allowing their home to go into foreclosure. This is a selfish act, particularly when the churches who they are giving their tithes to probably have excess money (i.e. the mega churches). The value of my home went down nearly $200,000 in a year because there were 12 foreclosures in the area. While those who chose to tithe to their church instead of pay their mortgage have been brainwashed into believing that they are doing God’s will, they are not and their conduct is harming others–including their own family. There are scriptures that say give what you have and not what you have not—there are also scriptures that tell you to take care of your family first.
I do not believe that any of these individuals can point to any Biblical support in the New Testament for what they are doing. I also do not believe that even the Old Testament scriptures support this practice for Christians.
As a Mormon, a full tithe has always been a principle strictly enforced by my church. But unlike many of my more orthodox LDS brothers and sisters, I’ve come to hold a very different interpretation of the scriptural injuction.
As a result, rather than tithe 10% of my gross income, I choose to tithe only 10% of my increase or surplus, the amount of leftover money after my most basic needs are covered. At this point in my life, I define my essential budget categories as rent, groceries, taxes, health insurance, gas and university tuition. I tithe on the rest.
Few other members would agree with my interpretation but I feel that I am following both the scripture and the spiritual promptings from God. My inclination is also to pay more of my tithing to charities, but within the LDS Church tithing is only really considered valid when the full 10% remitted to the church itself.
(The rest of my post is background and sorry it makes it so long…) For reference, here’s what the tithing scriptures (revealed in 1838) say:
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
-Doctrine & Covenants Section 119
The Church Handbook of Instructions, a manual used by church leaders, cites a letter written in 1970 from the First Presidency of the Church defining “interest” as income. The only people exempt from paying tithing are listed as members entirely dependent on Church welfare and full-time missionaries.
It is interesting to note that prior to 1838, the Mormon Church did not require tithing but rather communal asset distribution known as the law of consecration. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Consecration
Members turned over all their property to the church, who then assigned them back stewardship of the property, but any excess was given to other members by the church. For better or for worse, members are no longer hold to this but to the more straightforward 10% doctrine.
This is an interesting topic; thank you for bringing it up so tactfully. I agree with the theme of a lot of the comments that said if you can’t live in 90% of your income, the problem likely isn’t the tithe but rather your lifestyle. My husband and I have tithed since we married (almost 5 1/2 years ago) and our needs have always been met - we don’t have the nicest car or the biggest house of all our friends, but we do have a pretty sweet TV
In addition, we give to other charities - we’ve always felt that a tithe is our “obligation” much like any other bill, and other offerings should come on top of that. We make small contributions to a friend who works in college missions, the ASPCA (the puppies and kitties are so sad looking!) as well as sponsoring two children overseas, one in Indonesia and one in Ghana. If you’re looking for a way to get started in giving I’d highly recommend this - there are many organizations (both religious and secular) that offer child sponsorship, the cost is minimal and can be deducted automatically each month, and you know what your gift is going to directly rather than just going to some nebulous donor pool.
I am not a Christian, so I’ll talk in general about giving to charity vs paying for your home. I understand that religious obligations are stronger than just charitable giving, but some of the issues may be the same.
If a tenant not an owner chooses to give 10% to charity but then is unable to pay his rent, he not only can be evicted, he hurts others i.e. his landlord who has bills too.
Similarly, if somebody gives 10% and as a result loses his house, this person’s family suffers. But others suffer as well - their neighbors whose house values go down and who now may not be able to refinance; the whole neighborhood may be affected. Additionally, as we can see now, the whole economy suffers when a lot of people don’t pay their mortgage.
A mortgage is an obligation. I firmly believe that if you borrow money you have to pay it back. Is not meeting one’s obligation and indirectly hurting others less important than not giving 10% to the church? I don’t believe that hurting others is the right choice here.
I totally agree that people have to buy what they can afford, actually less than what they can afford. But unexpected things happen - the loss of a job, for example, or an illness. Regardless how one got into this situation, the choice is the same - fail on one’s obligations or reduce the amount of money one gives.
There will always be excuses not to give or share with others, in the same way that there are always excuses not to save money or be frugal. This is why I do admire those who refused to cut down or stop tithing, although I am not religious. Even though their actions were leading them to financial failure, their hearts were in the right place. Agree or disagree with what they did, the point is that they felt it was more important than having a roof over their heads to help others.
This reminds me of one of my favorite stories from the Bible. Although as I mentioned, I am not Christian, I still find this story quite inspiring. Luke 21:1-4
And he looked up, and saw rich men dropping their gifts into the offering box. Then he noticed a destitute widow drop in two small copper coins. And he said “In truth, I tell you that this widow has put in more than all of the others. For all these put in gifts out of their abundance, and she out of her poverty hath put in all she had to live on.”
It is something I think about whenever I am considering giving to charity. I believe the moral of this is that giving to others is easy when we ourselves have so much we don’t know what to do with it. The true measure of charity is giving to others although you may have to sacrifice to do so. This is the definition of altruism, not to give because you expect that rewards will come to you because of it.
First, I’ll say that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e. LDS or “Mormon” if you prefer) and I have grown up my entire life with the expectation and commandment to pay tithing. I can only speak for myself, but my financial decisions on the whole have been better for myself and my family when I have willingly and completely paid a full tithe as compared to period in my life where I did not.
My opinion on this is that, outside of the tangible charitable benefits (knowing that my money goes to help missionaries, build temples, and build meetinghouses around the world) and the intangible spiritual and religious benefits (those things that I have a testimony of, but would have a really hard time putting on a balance sheet), I believe that the main purpose of tithing is to make the person doing it change their mental paradigm as far as money is concerned. When we willingly and fully give 10% of our money off the top each pay period, we get into the mindset of being one who is a giver. By being a giver, we are able to see outside of ourselves into a broader community. In my world view, this helps to contribute greatly to a better feeling of contentment and to a willingness to budget and plan in ways that will ensure that the ability to give that 10% each month isn’t stopped.
I do not look at it in any way that God needs my money (he doesn’t, he already has everything), or that God will love me any less if I don’t do it (though I feel he will be disappointed that I’m not doing what he’s asked me to do, same way I feel when I ask my own kids to do something and they don’t; I still love them, but yes, I’d be disappointed in them). I look at it as this is a principle that God wants me to learn, that I should be one willing to share of what I have with others, even when it’s not convenient for me to do so. My being willing to do that has contributed greatly to our family being able to own a home free and clear in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country, and to make ends meet on my one income in an area where two income families are seen as almost a necessity. I cannot say that tithing has been the sole reason, but it has helped attune me and my family in such a way that we make different choices and we’ve been able to benefit from those choices. We’ve had our challenges over the years, to be sure, but somehow, we’ve always managed to pull through. I don’t think it’s an accident that our paying tithing through good times and bad had a lot to do with that :).
I don’t belong to a church and I’m not comfortable with organized religion, but I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in God.
When I was looking for a job two years ago, I found what I thought was the perfect job opening at the right company. The hiring process took a very long time (two months from the first interview), and I was anxious about whether or not they’d hire me. Finally, I decided to just let go and give it up to a higher power. If it was meant to be, it would happen. I also vowed to start giving money to a specific charity I had wanted to support as soon as I found a job. I did get the job, and I still give to the charity every month. I’m looking for a couple more causes to support, as well. Yes, I helped myself first, and now I’m able to help others. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with that. If someone loses their home, how much are they going to be able to give then?
Giving is important to me, but not because the Bible says to give some preset percentage. I just believe in helping those less fortunate in self-sustaining ways (the charity I support helps women in war-torn countries start their own businesses). I feel as though I have always been lucky in life and have never gone without, and giving is the only way I can deal with so much of what I read in the news. I have to do something, however small, to help those who have not been as lucky as I.
I get letters from the woman I’m matched with in the program, and hearing about her progress and her accomplishments makes her situation, and the situation of so many more, seem that much more hopeful. That is what I get out of giving.
Christianity (and tithing) is not nearly as complex or mind-numbingly stupid as some people think it is.
Clearly, God isn’t going to be better off if we give 10%. Obviously, God is not a guaranteed-win slot machine who will always return our tithe with interest.
There’s a faith-based assumption that underlies the entire Bible: Ultimate satisfaction is found only in God. Wealth will not provide that satisfaction. If a person fully embraces this assumption, tithing is a natural consequence.
It doesn’t seem make a ton of sense. If it did make sense, evangelizing would be much easier. But it makes sense for those who have accepted it and, as evidenced by the fact that they value their house less than they value their conviction, this fundamental assumption is very powerful.
Giving not necessarily means you have to give material things. It could be other non-tangible things such as your time or your expertise. I know a financially struggling 27 year old single mother of 3 children in our church. Money for her is difficult for her so our pastor insisted that she help the congregation by volunteering her skills as a cook for the church instead of giving money.
I have to comment one more time: I would really like to know (please email me) what is the biblical authority that tithing comes first–before paying the mortgage.
Under Mosaic law, there were only two types of income that were tithable: one was from agricultural production and the other was the increase of animals. For example, if you owned 100 cattle and during the spring, you were blessed with 50 additional calves, you would be required to give five of the calves as a tithe to God. Individuals with fewer than ten cattle did not have to tithe because the law only required that the tenth animal that passed under the rod was to be tithed. (Leviticus 27:32).
Furthermore, a large segment of the people in Israel did not tithe. For example, fisherman did not tithe. Also, hired hands and people who worked in the mining industry, lumber business and craft or other merchandising business were not required to tithe. Indeed, Jesus himself would not have been required to tithe.
What is the scriptural basis that one should be paying 10% to a church before paying for their home and taking care of their family.
If people are going to use the Bible as their basis for doing something, then they should follow the Bible as it is and not add or subtract from it. None of the churches that I have attended have tithed under the system set forth under the Old Testament. In fact, Christians do not follow any of the other ceremonial or civil laws set forth under Mosaic Law. On what authority from God do the modern day churches choose to obey part of the Mosaic Law and disregard the other? Further, what gives proponents of tithing the right to redesign the Biblically-based system of tithing under Mosaic law into a system they want to follow which will benefit them, but is clearly contrary to the Bible? If Christians want to argue that the Bible requires them to tithe based upon a purported Biblical mandate found in the Old Testament, then the church should follow all of the mandates—this would include the mandates on the minister/pastor not owning property or land, having other income and would also include the number of tithes that should be given, when and where the people should tithe, the purpose of the tithe and who should be given the tithe. After all, in Deuteronomy 12:32, God tells the Israelites that they are required to obey all of the commandments and not to add or subtract from them.
For example, as Christians today, would we support such barbaric practices as stoning to death women who engage in pre-marital sex (Deut. 22:13-21), stoning to death men who committed adultery with a married woman (Deut. 22:22), stoning to death children who are disobedient to their parents (Deut. 21:18), slavery (Deut. 15:12-17), or beating a man with up to forty stripes with a whip for committing a crime (Deut. 25:1-3)? Do we as modern Christians support the practice of men having multiple wives (Deut. 21:15) or the practice of ostracizing a woman by separating her from her family and friends during her menstrual cycle (Leviticus 15:19-24, Numbers 5:2)?
Under these same laws, we could not have tattoos on our bodies ( Lev. 19:28) or wear clothes made out of two different types of materials such as linen and wool. (Deut. 22:11) Our judicial system would put to death a woman who was raped who did not cry out for help (Deut 22:23-24). Kidnappers would also be put to death (Deut. 24:7) and a woman who grabbed the genitals of the man fighting her husband would have her hand cut off. (Deut. 25:11).
In coming to grips with such antiquated practices, I can only believe that these Laws were written to a very specific group of people (the Israelites), at a very specific time (before Christ’s Resurrection), for a very specific purpose (Until Christ Redeemed Us). In fact, I would argue that anyone who relies on following the Law is in grave danger. As Paul stated in Galatians 3:10: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.’” Stated otherwise, you cannot choose randomly which of the 600-plus ceremonial and civil laws in the Old Testament you will obey.
If you choose to follow the Law, you have to follow all of the Law. If you break one, you are cursed. Moreover, if we were bound by all of the ceremonial and civil laws set forth in the Old Testament, would we follow Moses’ instruction on the Laws to the Israelites when he spoke to them after their exodus from Egypt at the foot of Mount Sinai as set forth in the book of Leviticus (the instructions to the Priest) or would we follow Moses’ instruction to the new generation of Israelites about to enter the Promised Land on the east side of the Jordan River as set forth in Deuteronomy? These are questions that must be answered by proponents of tithing if they are going to use the Old Testament as the basis for supporting this practice.
Furthermore, even if a church is somehow going to reason that we are under these old laws with respect to the issue of tithing only (which there is absolutely no Biblical basis to separate the issue from tithing from other ceremonial and civil laws like the ones set forth above), then, at a minimum, the church should attempt to achieve the same purpose that God achieved when he imposed the duty on the Israelites to tithe in the first place. For example, if one reads the Biblical references to the system of tithing set forth under Mosaic law, it is clear that the purpose of the tithe was to make sure that those who had food would take care of those without food- i.e. the “Levites (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee), the stranger, the widow, which are within the gates. . .” so that they can “eat and be satisfied.” (Deut. 14:29) As set forth above, the only tithe that did not go to feed others was the festival tithe that was personally consumed before God. (See Deut. 14:22-29 quoted above).
KimInLosAngeles, you got it right. As i said in an earlier post, the tithe was the national tax for a theocratic nation. The Levites needed the food and goods so they could survive. They did not get paid. We do NOT live in a theocracy, and I wish we did and only had to pay 10% in tax. It was a command that obviously in time was not enforced, otherwise Malachi would not have mentioned it. The apostle Paul was a strict law-abiding Pharisee who obviously tithed and even he did not tell Christians to tithe. Instead he said “give generously” in 2 Corinthians 9:7. Jesus said to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you believe that your church is worthwhile, give generously. There is no concrete law that God commands. That was for the theocracy of Israel. That should be the end of the discussion, but I’m sure there are a lot of pastors having seizures because they think everyone is a cheapskate and need to be pressured to give 10% on top of everything the government takes from us, leaving us struggling to pay our bills.
This is exactly why I am against organized religion. Seems to me that people should be able to worship any god they like without paying for the privilege. I simply don’t understand why anyone would donate to the church to the detriment of their well being. I understand making sacrifices for those less fortunate, but not at the expense of making you one of them. Like another commenter said, this goes against the whole “love thy neighbor” thing, because when you lose your home, you drive the value of your neighbors homes down. Sorry if my comments offend anyone, but I just don’t understand giving up your own well being for something that may or may not exist.
I think for many people who tithe they don’t really consider that money as theirs. Plenty of people who are losing their homes still pay their taxes. Is it surprising some people are more afraid of God’s wrath than the IRS?
Many people think the grace of God also has a lot to do with their success. Just as the society you live can have more to do with your standard of living than your own knowledge, experience or work habits.
Anyone who puts tithing above their mortgage (or other bills) is by *my interpretation* of Scripture worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:8 (NIV): “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
I don’t think tithe is a salvation issue. I haven’t read the comments, but by now I’m sure someone has addressed this :-). I tithe because I am called to do so. It feels good to give, and God himself is a giver (John 3:16!), and we were made in his image.
I can’t speak to tithing, as I’m not Christian, but your comment here JD, really struck me:
I’ll be honest: I do not tithe to church or charity. I feel guilty about this. And yet I don’t. It’s something I feel I should do, and yet I’m so incredibly protective of what I have. My rationale is always: “Once I take care of myself, I’ll take care of other people.” Yet what do I mean by “taking care of myself”? I don’t know.
I have a terrible time giving money to charity, even though I always felt I should. For me, not being able to give is tied directly to not being able to save. In both cases I feel a loss of control over my ability to use my own money.
Now I’m teaching myself to see generosity as a key requirement for prosperity. There’s more here:
http://growprosperthrive.blogspot.com/2008/08/key-to-prosperity-generosity.html about how I came to this conclusion and the scientific proof that backs it up.
Currently I give a regular monthly amount to Modest Needs — not much, but it feels great.
Very interesting. I was raised Catholic, though I am currently not a member of an organized religion. When I was Catholic, I always gave as generously as I could to the church, though usually in terms of direct work for the church instead of money. When I see stories like these, where people deliberately give up in order to “trust to God” I am reminded of a story I was told.
A man is stuck on his roof during a flood. A rescue boat comes by to pick him up, but the man refuses, saying that he will trust to God. A helicopter comes by a little while later to rescue him, but the man again claims that he will trust to God. Eventually, the man drowns, and when he gets to heaven, he cries out “I trusted you! Why didn’t you save me?” God replies, “I sent a boat and a helicopter! What more did you want?”
Moral of the story, God doesn’t want you to kill yourself trusting to him!
God provides for His people, but not necessarily in the way that they want or expect. Home ownership may not be the way God provides for a particular person.
Also, God is sufficient, and those that believe in Him — homeless, bankrupt, thief, whomever — will have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Default, foreclosure may be God’s loving discipline. Even if the causes of the foreclosure seems out of the person’s control, the Bible makes it clear that believers will suffer (the book of Job comes to mind).
Besides, everything is God’s anyway; we all just get to borrow it for a while.
JD, thanks for the post. I have been contemplating a post on tithing for months and you just lite the fire. We have been tithing for three years this fall. A series of very bad financial decisions led us to a point of no return with our finances, or so we thought what the heck, why not get God involved. We did not actually hit rock bottom with our finances until after we began tithing and then things took a huge turn. Now we are within a year of having everything paid off except our home. I don;t think tithing in itself fixed our problems, but rather our attitude towards God and money led to solutions for our financial problems.
I must say, as a non-religious reader I’m extremely humbled by the conviction many religious posters have shown about their commitment to charitable giving.
JD - a steady monthly donation to charity, even if small, can be more valuable to an organization than a yearly donation because it can help them plan programming according to a stable budget.
I started donating to Doctors without Borders almost six years ago as a student, and I started at $10 a month. I’m now up to about $25 and it’s as much a part of my budget as my phone bill. It’s not much, and admittedly nowhere near 10% of my income, but I value it more for training me in the consistent practice of giving - one that I will build on for a lifetime.
Brian (nr. 22) says… “The lady who let the bank foreclose her house showed integrity in one commandment (tithe) and showed duplicity in another (paying your obligations). God also tells us to not cheat, steal, or lie. Failing to pay a debt is the same as cheating,stealing, or lying.”
This is what I thought. The Biblical command in the New Testament is to give as you are able. But there are many commands to pay your debts or meet your obligations, etc.
So, IMO, she is being ’strict’ about a derived principle (the amount is from the OT but the command to give is from the NT), but ignoring a COMMAND about being honest, trustworthy, etc in her obligations.
There are plenty of biblical principles about money in the Bible. I think she should cut back on all her expenses equally and then see what she can do. She could see about working at the church (janitorial, gardening) and just having them “not pay her” in lieu of tithe.
Usually it isn’t an either/or situation. That’s usually just something drawn up to make controversy.
JD, if you do want to give and aren’t a member of a church anywhere, find a charity that you really believe in and start by giving 1%, etc. work up from there.
When you don’t really believe in anyone else, it is easy to keep it all, but when you begin to see others (worldwide) who have needs far greater than anything you have ever experienced and can find a trustworthy group who are helping, you will want to help.
(I’m writing from Poland where “hungry” people are thin.)
As a christian, it is interesting to me that so many christians believe that the bible commands us to give 10% of our gross earinings every year as a tithe. That is not in the bible anywhere Old or New testament. The Old testament Jews tithed every third year, as commanded, to what we now would call the church. They also had other laws that required giving of first fruits, such as the first offspring of their flock. It is also interesting that in the new testament, most examples of giving were 100%. The bible also says that the “borrower is slave to the lender.”
I don’t think tithing is the point of this article. Tithing does not bring you to the brink of foreclosure. Neither does any other spending we do. It is the mishandling of ALL of our funds that brings us to the place of losing a home, car, or bankrupcy. The Bible does address money issues in many ways. It talks about planning for the future, diversivying your investments, and being prepared for a crisis. The Proverbs 31 woman referred to as the “wife of nobel character”, bought and sold, dealt with merchants, made investments, planned for what would come and was not found unprepared. If we make sound decisions with our finances, we won’t have to choose between giving and living. Deciding to leave off tithing may temporarily put a bandage on the situation, but in all probability not fix the underlying problem…overspending and underplanning.
It’s sad for me to see something like this happen.
As a Christian tithing is not a Christian principle. It’s a biblical principle yes, but the New Testament does not support it (and tithing really just means 10%, but in the biblical context it means 10% of everything, what you have and what you are still to get).
Now never in the bible is tithing cold hard cash. Never. I don’t understand where this “doctrine” comes from that we have to tithe money.
Then also, the Jews really tithed 23.3%. They had three tithes, why then do we only have to tithe 10% if we’re following the Jewish laws of tithing? (Yet we don’t follow the sabbath?)
Crazy!
Giving is wonderful though!
Also, the reason for foreclosure isn’t tithing it’s what you do with the other 90%…
The word tithe basically means tenth. If someone is doing it as a religious observance then they should just keep their money because they are missing the point. It is an individual decision whether to take on the discipline of systematic charitable giving. Generosity is a principle built into the very fabric of life.
During financial counseling if the right questions are asked you will usually find that the problem is not related to tithing but other factors such as poor work or spending practices.
Jesus made some of his harshest statements to religious people who practiced ritualistic tithing but missed the greater revelation of generosity.
Thanks of the post and all the comments. I really enjoyed it.
I do tithe, and it is painful sometimes, since our tithe is 20% more than our next highest expense, our mortgage. But it does make me realize how blessed I am and makes me thankful for what I have. That being said, I chose a home that was very easily affordable even after my giving obligations. I also agree that it doesn’t make sense to obey in the tithing but disobey in the command to repay your debts. I think that in times of severe financial distress, it is allowable to suspend your tithe.
I see plenty of Mormons are posting here. How about a view from an ex-Mormon?
Just do a quick search for Utah and bankruptcy rates. Utah is always in the top few.
Make of that what you will.
I’ve seen Dave Ramsey go from “hold off on tithing until you’re back on track” to “you must tithe even during the Money Makeover” in the space of under a year. I think it has a lot to do with:
1) His increased presence in church communities (Total Money Makeover has support groups in communities like churches and workplaces).
2) Dave’s increased publicity in conservative circles (Fox Business News, anyone?)
The article does really have any statistical correlation.
“While nonprofits around the country say tithing is an issue in some foreclosure cases, little data exist on the phenomenon because many counselors are trained not to bring up the sensitive issue with struggling home owners.”
The article claims only 5% tithe but makes no mention on what percentage of the %5 are actually going into foreclosure. Even if its 25% (which I’m sure it is much less) that is not a very large number.
The author has only one example and no other statistical data. Sounds like a stretch for a correlation between the two. The author should check the % of people under foreclosure that also have cable, internet, or their entertainment expenses (casino, eating out, movies).
JD, If you are interested in giving to charity, I would find an organization that you are interested in and start by giving time. I find that I give the most money to those charities that I’m the most involved with.
Giving is part of our budget, but like all other budget items if we were facing an emergency we would cut back the amount of money being given and increase the amount of time.
Thanks for contributing to this larger conversation on church stewardship and giving. I missed the USA Today article. I expanded on your thoughts @ http://tinyurl.com/3rhhkl.
Thanks, Ben.
Simply using the only example you cited - a $500 a month mortgage and a $200 a month tithe - This woman has too much house already. Making $2000 a month and trying to afford a $500 a month mortgage is not sustainable, especially when you start factoring in upkeep and utilities.
She should be renting - and quite possibly with a roommate or two.
The problem in your example is not the tithe, but what she is doing with the rest of the money.
Parker (Comment #14) has a good point. Anyone who tithes regularly really needs to consider the amount that they tithe when purchasing a home. If your salary is $50,000 per year then you need to treat is as though you only make $45,000 per year when you’re deciding how much you can afford to borrow.
My wife and I have chosen to tithe 10% of what we earn. We’re also in the early stages of buying our first home. As we’ve been looking at our financial situation and evaluating what we can afford, we’ve had to keep this in mind. When using one of those online “how much can I borrow” tools I’ve found it’s easiest, for calculation purposes only, to list the amount that we donate weekly as a debt so the mortgage calculator accurately calculates that you’ll have $XXX less money each week. It was tough for us and for our banker to wrap our heads around that one.
Interesting topic, but I think your headline is misleading. My experience with Judeo-Christian tithing comes from Jewish, Muslim, and Catholic friends/education (though I am none of the above), but here is what I understand:
Tithing is God’s commandment for a number of reasons. First and foremost, it is a reminder that all you have you owe to God’s blessing. Second, it is a reminder that you are connected to something greater than yourself, not just God, but also your community. And third, it is a testament to faith.
It is that last that I think is most important, and also the most troubling in this situation. Tithers who are at risk of losing their homes lack faith. If you truly believe in the lessons of tithing, you would understand that it is not just about giving X dollars on a regular basis, but *also* about managing the remaining in a way that demonstrates your faith and integrity. God doesn’t just want his 10%, he wants you to live with the other 90% in line with the rest of his commandments. Tithing should not be on auto-pilot.
So, it’s not tithing that is the problem. It’s the lack of awareness of what it means for your entire financial situation.
Anyway, good discussion!
Also, JD, regarding your own lack of giving. A major part of a successful financial life is lacking on your part, IMHO. Giving is what makes us appreciate the part we get to keep. As someone else pointed out, getting involved with your time first is a great introduction. I second that you should start with that, and giving of $ will naturally flow.
I think what Dave Ramsey means is that tithing is a discipline that shouldn’t be stopped just because you struggle with debt or live paycheck to paycheck. It is something that teaches you to put God 1st in your life even though you have other things going on. But in severe cases (foreclosure, creditors after you all the time, literally not being able to buy any food) then it is ok to stop tithing.
GregB…Book of Malachi
As an amateur Bible scholar, I find it interesting that the Old Testament does set forth 10% gross as the tithe, but Jesus in the New Testament says after you have taken care of your most basic needs, give *everything* away to the poor.
I’ve been in churches where it doesn’t matter who you are and what you do, you’re going to Heaven as long as you give the church 10% of your money. I didn’t last in those churches long.
I give money to my parish church, and I give money to four other organizations locally and abroad, religious and secular. I also donate time and my organizational skills to two of the groups I donate money to, and to top it all off, I sit on the Board of Directors of my church. I know where my money’s going. Because I’m the one directing it.
I just want to say this has been one of the most fascinating GRS discussions we’ve ever had. I love the diversity of beliefs.
I am not religious, but I was raised in a church that strongly adhered to the 10% tithe. When I was a teenager, my family began attending a church with a voluntary offering. Charitable giving outside church donations wasn’t something my parents ever discussed. Maybe this was because we were poor ourselves — I don’t know.
As I’ve mentioned, as an adult, I wrestle with this issue. I’m sure it’ll be something I write about more in the future. Reading all of your comments, though, makes me realize that people can and do give all the time, and that there’s no reason for me not to do so…
Thank you all for such a civil, interesting discussion.
This is fascinating.
On the whole donating even though you’re losing your house - that could be partly because if you give regularly it makes you feel richer, and also most people don’t want to be the recipients of charity.
After all, this tithe money should be used for something productive, why aren’t the people in foreclosure seeking help from their churches?
JD I started doing the small donation thing, and it’s easier than you think. I usually increase it with each pay rise and I’m hoping to get it up to a nice high figure eventually.
Very interesting topic J.D.
I will tell you my situation and see how it fits in with the rest of America these days. My wife and I go to church, a very small one. Tithing is NOT the main focus of the church even though we take up tithes/offerings every service. Its not forced down our throats that “we need to tithe”. We are reminded what the Bible says about it from time to time but that is normal. In saying that…we tithe based on our what we can give at the time, it may be 1%, it may be 15%…it just depends on how much we have to give that week or month. There are so many different viewpoints on this topic but it really depends on what the Bible says, that’s it period! Yes, in the Old Testament, 10% was mentioned. In the New Testament (I have not found a scripture that specifically says a certain amount) Basically, you give according to your heart.
I am in a bad place financially (one reason I love reading this website) but if I had a house about to be forclosed on, and some credit cards about to go into collection….I would still tithe, pay the house mortgage. The credit cards WOULD BE THE LAST THING I WOULD BE WORRYING ABOUT! Of course that statement only matters if these people that are letting their property go also have credit cards that they are paying. There is no point in letting your house get taken from you when a person worked so hard to get it in the first place.
Bottom line, you can’t afford NOT to tithe….(sorry if this statement crosses the line)
Lots of interesting comments here on both sides of the argument. Though as a Christian who gives > 10% of my *gross* I have a thought to add:
The people who argue whether or not 10% is biblical or logical or whatever I believe are missing the point: it’s not the amount, it’s the priority. What do you put first: God, or other stuff? Do you trust Him or do you trust money? 10%, whether or not it’s specifically called for, is an amount says, “yes, I trust God and I am willing to live my life reflecting that.” Some people will do it legalistically, but I hope that most will chose to do it as a conscience decision to show their faithfulness to God.
Optimally, Christians should give even more than that, such that as much as it’s possible, all poverty and hardship is eliminated. C.S. Lewis does a good job discussing this issue in Mere Christianity and implores us not to give a specific amount, but to instead “give until it hurts.” Tithing/giving requires sacrifice, just as being a follower requires sacrifice–what one does with their money is a good indication of where their heart lies.
@Mary Sue: I assume you are talking about the Rich Young Man who wanted to be a disciple of Jesus. Please notice the context. He claimed to have kept all of the commandments since his youth. However, which commandment did Jesus leave out? The 10th. Jesus knew the Rich Young Man’s heart better than the Rich Young Man did. That is why he left in tears. It is also why Jesus followed it up by saying that it is easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of God. We are not commanded to give *everything* to the poor, but we are certainly admonished in several places to take care of the poor. Not all Christians are called to be in a life of poverty, although some may be. However, whatever gifts, physical or spiritual, are to be used to benefit those who cannot repay us (and that is a commandment, look it up).
People, there are two things being discussed here. The initial issue was about tithers who cannot afford their mortgages. The answer to that is simple: If you are committed to tithing then you must base your financial commitments on your income minus your tither. The second issue (which the conversations morphed into) was whether the tithe is a command to Christians. This is obviously not so for reasons and others have given ad infinitum. Giving is a trademark of a Christian, but that does not mean that all giving (whatever percentage or varying amount is decided) must go to one ministry. In some cases, Christians give to one ministry (usually the church they attend) and trust them to get it to the needy. If you cannot trust your church administrators or you don’t think they are on the ball where finding the right outlets are concerned, then by all means do your own research and divide your giving up accordingly, giving to your local church whatever you feel is needed for upkeep of the facility and the pastor’s needs and finding your own separate charities (which could be a neighbor down the road who has fallen on hard times). Are you under a curse if you end up giving less than 10%? No! What does God want you to give? Ask Him! He’ll tell you. Who does God want you to give to? Again, ask Him! He’ll tell you. Don’t ask an evangelical pastor. He will tell you that his church facility is the temple as mentioned in Malachi. That is a lie. Most of them believe this so they can justify getting more money than they need. Read 2 Corinthians 9:7 to see what a tithing Pharisee turned Christian urged the church in Corinth to do regarding giving.
a note about tithing as an obligation as a Christian
Tithing or not tithing has no impact on going to heaven, nor does helping old ladies cross the street, or cheating and stealing. Christianity is a doctrine of grace - heaven is a free gift from God that you cannot earn, only accept. The Old Testament tithe is not an obligation, it is a model for how God has told people in the past to give. God has told us to give, to help widows, orphans, prisoners and the poor. We obey Him because He knows what he is doing, and we believe that his guidelines for living will make our lives better. Its the same reason that we want our children to obey us - not because we’ll whip out the will to disinherit them if they don’t, but because we want them to be safe, happy and good, and the boundaries we put up will help them be just that.
I appreciate this article and all the comments. I like hearing so many viewpoints on this topic. I try to stay within my means and already live frugally — but I find it hard to give back.
I like the idea to start with $5 or $10 a month. I think it’s a great place to start.
I doubt tithing would lead to people losing their homes in and of itself. As others have pointed out, some of the tithers likely overextended themselves, either by buying too much house, or by being squeezed by an ARM they hadn’t thought through.
I wonder how many tithers who ended up with unaffordable mortgages were expecting God to provide because they were tithing? How many tithers going into foreclosure believe that it’s “God’s will” that they’re losing their homes now?
I don’t think God had a lot to do with the real estate bubble or the current subprime mortgage/foreclosure/banking mess. (Greed, dishonesty, selfishness, and irresponsibility aren’t attributes of the God I believe in.)
We don’t tithe, but we give significantly to nonprofits we believe in, but nowhere near 10% of our gross or net income.
If you are a member of a church and regularly attend, then you need to help support the church, and generally, that means tithing.
J.D., my favorite charity is Heifer.org. One thing that has made it easier for me to give is rolling a charitable donation in with a gift (i.e. spending more on a gift than I normally would, but the gift is in the person (or family) name to the Heifer.org not stuff to someone). This has led to other people also supporting this organization. Maybe $120 seems like a lot of money to donate, but buying a goat for a family in a developing country makes it easier in some way because it is something concrete as opposed to not knowing what happens to the money you donate.
There is much discussion on a number of issues here that I won’t address, but if a tithing member is financially distressed, I would encourage them or any member of any church to seek out their church leadership for help and wisdom, *before* it comes to making a decision between tithing and foreclosure (or any such hard decision). Most churches have some access to Dave Ramsey’s resources at the very least, if not better. Good church leadership wants their flock to be good stewards of their finances.
Let’s be honest here, folks. This is a nice, warm, fuzzy topic, and a great opportunity for everyone to pat themselves on the back, but giving away money is quite simply the dumbest thing you can possibly do if your goal is to “Get Rich Slowly.” All the confessions and criticisms about overspending on status symbols and wasting money on snacks at the movie theater are still better - financially speaking - than just plain giving money away.
The bottom line is, it makes no sense at all to pinch pennies, and maximize interest rates with savings accounts and credit card arbitrage, and wash and re-use sandwich bags, then turn around and just give the money away.
Those of you who give money away, I hope it makes you feel better about yourselves, but don’t kid yourself into thinking it has any place in a wealth-building program. It can only hurt you.
Those of you who don’t donate, don’t feel bad about it. Everyone’s gotta “do what works for them.” And what works for me is to hang on to my money and put it to work for me, so I can leave the rat race while I’m still young enough to enjoy it.
I am curious about one thing, though. To those of you who tithe 10% of your income to the church (as the Bible allegedly commands), what happens when you retire, and live off your retirement savings? That’s not really “income,” because it’s just money you saved after you’d already paid your tithe. Do you count that money again, and tithe another 10%? If some of it is interest income or capital gains, do you tithe on that, but not the principle portion you may be drawing down? Or are you off the hook at this point, and don’t have to tithe at all? Is there even a rule for this?
Maybe the house payment was out of order and not the tithing
Read the article, thanks JD for the link. Do have issues with USA Today and lack of journalism. This article smacks of sensationalism
1. New Testament doesnt command 10%. There is examples to follow that is how 10% came about.
2. In the article it talks about one elderly lady who cosigned for a daughter. There are several scriptures that talks about the folly of cosigning.
3. There are other scriptures that talk about paying what you owe.
4. Whether you are christian or not there is no better joy in giving. I will pinch pennies to continue monthly giving.
Hard to imagine that the local believers “Christians” would let another believer go “homeless”. If so they are not following the Bible
Canadian Kevin, my apologies but I’m afraid that you’re wrong about giving and wealth. Here’s the relevant article: http://www.entrepreneur.com/growyourbusiness/portfoliocombusinessnewsandopinion/article185662.html
Giving, it seems, really does stimulate prosperity.
Venecia@115: That’s an interesting link, but if you strip away all the statistical and economic double-speak, it comes down to the suggestion that if people see you behaving charitably, you’re more likely to get a promotion at work:
“Experiments have also found that people are elevated by others into positions of leadership after they are witnessed behaving charitably.”
Also, I’ll cite “The Millionaire Next Door,” Chapter 1, “Portrait of a Millionaire”:
“I am a tightwad. That’s one of the main reasons I completed a long questionnaire for a crispy $1 bill. Why else would I spend two or three hours being personally interviewed by these authors? They paid me $100, $200, or $250. Oh, they made me another offer - to donate in my name the money I earned for my interview to my favorite charity. But I told them, ‘I am my favorite charity.’”
Real millionaires - the ones who know what it takes to achieve financial independence - don’t give away huge sums of money. It’s simply counterproductive. There’s no way that giving money away can improve your financial situation. It may make you feel good about yourself for a while, and if you feel your life sucks, then maybe a little ego boost is what you need, but in the long run, it worsens your financial situation. It is an obstacle to wealth accumulation, not an enabler. And while I’ve no issues debating the ethical and moral virtues of charitable giving, there’s no denying that it works in direct opposition to the supposed stated goal of this website - getting rich.
@Canadian Kevin: Well, I guess that depends upon your definition of “rich”. If you mean lots and lots of money, then, yeah, a lot of people have gathered it in selfish and dubious ways. On the other hand, if you view money as a tool, then saying that giving it away doesn’t improve your financial situation can depend upon a lot of things, but it mostly depends upon your viewpoint.
As a Christian, I believe the proverb that says “Cast your bread upon the waters, and it will return to you sevenfold.” That may or may not be monetary wealth. OTOH, if it is money, then I also believe that God does sometimes grant wealth in order to help others.
The problem with these people is a religious mindset. I am a Christian and though, by our country’s standards, my husband and I (and our four children) would not be considered “rich” - still we have given upwards of $100,000 to church and charity over 26 years of marriage. Still, I would say to these people that God cares as much about the contract they made to pay this debt, as He does about their tithes. They can always “catch up” later when times get better for them, if they feel led. But again, the most important thing is: what about the contract they made to pay this money?
I don’t think this topic is at odds with the title of this blog. While giving money away itself won’t contribute to personal wealth, I think that including charitable giving as part of your budget is a wise financial decision.
For example, if you plan for it and set limits, you’re not giving into every emotional appeal that comes your way. (Ergo, you are not over extending yourself or overspending) Also, if you take the time to investigate where your donations are going, you can avoid organizations that waste money or others that are outright scams.
Obviously, you won’t accrue as much personal wealth as if you kept and invested the money, but if you have a plan you can help others and help yourself. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
I grew up in a church where tithing was a very priority commandment. Aside from arguments re: ‘gross v. net income – what do we tithe’ (I tithed net), it was just a done thing in our family.
My dad worked as an accountant (which explains why gross v. net even came up) and he volunteered as the church accountant. It broke his heart how few of our fellow churchgoers paid tithing. He’d never name names, but I knew that was his biggest crisis in faith.
I don’t participate in that anymore, but at least knowing I’ve paid over $1k in charity in my life makes me feel okay about myself.
I can understand both sides of the argument, but I appreciate that the people would rather tithe than foreclose. You can argue whether or not that’s responsible as a consumer, but I think there are fewer people who really stick by all their beliefs than there are ideal consumers, and I really appreciate their honesty and determination to stick by their values. Really, this doesn’t hurt anyone and I don’t see how it could upset anyone.
@ Canadian Kevin - giving won’t prevent you from getting rich, it’ll just get you there more slowly. So it does in fact, have everything to do with this blog!
Also, you must not know any rich people. All the ones I know give like mad. I can always count on them when I’m having a fundraiser.
This discussion is so interesting, I am still reading the comments today. One of the issues that I think that is being overlooked is why this woman would feel compelled to lose the home so that she could pay her tithes. I’d like to know more about the church and what it teaches. I am thinking that the church is as guilty as the predatory lenders.
God has never engaged in “spiritual blackmail” or extortion. Yet, sometimes we have heard proponents of tithing engage in such actions in the name of God. For example, I have heard a minister equate someone’s misfortune with the fact that the individual was not tithing. Much like the New Age Movement, we hear ministers now spouting words tied to giving such as “favor” “prosperity” “faith seed” and the like. Of course, we also are repeatedly warned about the curses that will fall upon us if we do not give. While I do believe that God does show favor, it is not tied to how much money one gives at offering time. Indeed, the blessings and curses that God warned the Israelites about in the Old Testament referred to their ability to keep all of the Mosaic law, not just with respect to the issue of tithing. (See eg. Deuteronomy Chapters 27 and 28). Furthermore, it referred to blessings and curses on the entire nation and not individual blessings and curses. Still further as stated in my comment above, under the New Covenant, the shedding of the Blood of Jesus freed us from all such curses and gave us the power and authority to be free from Satan’s harm.
We have also heard proponents of tithing tell us that we should be glad to give God a mere 10% of our income because He has given us the other 90% for our use and that He is the owner of everything or that we should pay our tithe before we pay our mortgage, rent, electricity or other bills? Whenever I hear statements such as these, I wonder what these individuals have read in the Bible that would lead to make them make such statements in the name of God. None of these statements are supported by examining the mandatory tithing system under Mosaic Law or even the voluntary tithes offered by Abraham or Jacob. For example, remember in Deuteronomy 14:22-29, the Israelites personally consumed the festival tithe and rejoiced before the Lord giving Him thanks. Also, remember that Jacob conditioned the giving of his tithe on God doing something for him first. (Genesis 28:20-22). Furthermore, as stated above, how does giving to the church equate to “giving to God” or being a good steward whereas giving money to take care of one’s family, the poor, the fatherless, or other charities (following in line with the third tithe under Mosaic law) somehow not equate to “giving to God” or being a good steward?
I really think the bottom line is that people should be guided by the Holy Spirit on what they should do in terms of their giving and their finances and not by traditions of men.
another mormon here. To the ex mormon, I actually think that it has less to do with paying a tithe than choosing to only have normally the father work. That is a much harder on the finances thing to accomplish. Really tithing is not going to keep one from losing there home. If all they had to come up with is a few hundred dollars a month they would do it. I’ve lived in 5 wards (kind of church units) and I’ve seen 2 that have lost there home that were active members. One was due to long time unemployment (and I doubt they were tithe payers either) and the other to huge medical debt.
What my mormon generation (early 30’s) are finding now is that to even be able to afford a home, nothing elaborate that they are needing to bring in some kind of extra income to pull it off.
If Utah wants to improve there bankruptcy standing, then there legistlators need to figure out how to fix the medicaid system. As a parent of a disabled child, they have one of the worst systems in the country. We had to ask to have our church help us pay our rent for several months because what we were paying out in medical bills, was more than we were taking in, in income. You will find big medical debt as a huge part of this forclosure crisis. People will choose to keep there kids/spouse alive, before they pay there mortgage.
As a few others have posted, specifically Derek @104, giving money to the church is about priorities. As a Christian, I have found that attempting to discuss this topic with non-Christians is often difficult because we don’t have the same belief system (i.e. Canadian Kevin). We end up having to agree to disagree…
My goal is NOT to get rich, whether slowly or by any other means… My goal is to do as God would have me do with my life (which currently has me teaching in a small Christian school - not exactly a road paved with gold).
Would it be nice to be rich? Maybe. Rockefeller said (and I know I’m paraphrasing, here) that the management of each of a million dollars was enough stress to kill a man. As JD said, X is always a moving target - (I know it wasn’t in reference to what I’m about to say, but I think it still holds true) if your goal is to get rich in order to be happy, how do you know when you’ve arrived? As previously quoted, Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven… that’s because the rich man has so many material possessions that he has to prioritize as being less important than his relationship with God.
On the other hand, learning to be content with what you already have will open up huge realms of freedom…. which is why my priorities include giving to my church. I believe that God has blessed me by giving me everything that I have (financially and otherwise), and I show my gratitude to and trust in Him by tithing… even when times are tough.
@KiminLosAngeles: You said to email you, but I have no way of looking up your email address. You say there is no biblical support for tithing, and that Abraham and Jacob tithed voluntarily. Well, if by “voluntary” you mean they chose to obey God, then yes, they chose to obey God. No, it isn’t blackmail, but to deny that God does reward obedience (whether in this life or in the next) above and beyond the gift of eternal life is to deny 1Co 3:9-15.
As far as whether a tithe is expected from Christians today, I suggest you read http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AT/AT.pdf.
God wants us to give out of what we have, not out of what we don’t have.
“For if there is a ready mind, a man will have God’s approval in the measure of what he has, and not of what he has not.” 2 Cor. 8:12
Man, the site ate my first comment!
Anyway — JD, if you want to start donating, you might call a women’s shelter or soup kitchen. They’d probably be thrilled to get some of the proceeds from your garden. If you contact the shelter, ask what else they need. Things like diapers, feminine health products and toiletries are generally in short supply. For these things, try Amazon: they have the bulk size and you can get free shipping and no tax on the items.
Even if you only do it once, and aren’t making a monthly habit, it’s still really valuable and can make a big difference.
Actually, when you’re thinking of next year’s garden, maybe set aside a little space for a charity plot?
I am LDS (mormon) too like several here. Tithing is very important to me. It helps me keep a perspective on money. The Bible teaches against being lovers of money and worldly posessions. Tithing is a small sacrifice to help me manage my wants and desires. Like the baptist lady in the post if I can’t afford something after paying tithing then I don’t need that. I served my mission in Ecuador where people who earned less than $200/month would faithfully pay tithing and they were still able to provide food and shelter for their family.
It’s sad to me that these churches haven’t made clear that “the community helps the church” also goes the other way. Even if churchgoers are so strict that they won’t give up the cash donation, parishoners could try to help with bake sales, free babysitting, etc., if they knew a fellow member was in need.
@Canadian Kevin–I didn’t think JD’s definition of “rich” necessarily meant “a stockpile of money.”
Sure, I could live my life with only my interests in mind, but I doubt that would make me feel rich. I care about the society in which I live, and I’d like for some of my money to support the changes I’d like to see.
All,
Just a short story from my life. A little less then 4 years ago, my wife was in a car accident that left her partially disabled. Naturally, her paycheck took a MAJOR hit (it stopped for a while!). At the same time, my consistent overtime ($400 bring home a payday) stopped. There we were, $1600/month less then before, and still paying on a totalled car! I decided (with my wife’s agreement) to cut our expenses to the bone, but we still continued to give the same amount of tithe. We survived for months, as her income gradually rose, with out living on credit cards, or any outside money assistance.
The moral of the story: 1 1/2 years after the accident, a new job was advertised with the company I work for, with a $6.00/hr raise over what I was making before. While some may ridicule me, I know the Lord spoke to my heart and told me that job was my reward for being faithfull during the lean times after my wife’s accident. Since I accepted this job, my income has risen another $2.00/hr. I am very thankful and continue to faithfully tithe!
You have got to be kidding…
All,
Just a short story from my life. A little less then 4 years ago, my wife was in a car accident that left her partially disabled. Naturally, her paycheck took a MAJOR hit (it stopped for a while!). At the same time, my consistent overtime ($400 bring home a payday) stopped. There we were, $1600/month less then before, and still paying on a totalled car! I decided (with my wife’s agreement) to cut our expenses to the bone, but we still continued to give the same amount of tithe. We survived for months, as her income gradually rose, with out living on credit cards, or any outside money assistance.
The moral of the story: 1 1/2 years after the accident, a new job was advertised with the company I work for, with a $6.00/hr raise over what I was making before. While some may ridicule me, I know the Lord spoke to my heart and told me that job was my reward for being faithfull during the lean times after my wife’s accident. Since I accepted this job, my income has risen another $2.00/hr. I am very thankful and continue to faithfully tithe!
Excuse me, but how can you say something like this? I wonder how all of those who were injured in accidents (where was the “Lord” there btw?) and whose spouse didn’t get a pay raise in the end feel about these type of comments. But hey, it worked out for you guys! Incredible.
Look, I’m sure you mean well, but think about what you’re saying. A divine entity interfered on your behalf because you gave some money to a church? Get real. You guys made the necessary changes, cut back, and new position happened to open up. Congratulations and have some pride in yourselves; it was you and your responsible wife who made this happen, not some fantasy being.
My husband and I are in the midst of a situation like Allen’s (comment 131). My husband has been out of job since January so our income got cut by more than 2/3. We have cut back our spending to the bare bones, are committed to not going into debt and continue to tithe. I would sell our house and rent an apartment to continue to tithe. We give to God and to poverty-relief efforts not out of compulsion but because we’re grateful for what God has done for us and given to us. We have been blessed so that we can bless others. Even in leaner times, we are still very aware of the fact that we are more wealthy than nearly everyone else in the world just because we live in the States. Even with a much-reduced income, we are committed to giving, to staying out of debt and to trusting God to lead us. We don’t know what the future holds, but are confident that we are making the right choice by continuing to give.
It’s unbelievable to me how many people “trust in God” to lead them all the way to bankruptcy.
It’s about priorities, regardless of your religious beliefs, isn’t it? I’m an athiest, but I do choose to give a percentage of my income away to causes that are important to me. At the same time, I’ve chosen to live in a small house with a small payment, so that I can afford to give. It’s also a priority to me to keep my children in high quality daycare while I work, which I see as no different than my charitable giving, or tithing. If something is important to you, and you know how to correctly budget your money, your choices should be in harmony and there will be no question of whether you can afford to tithe, if that’s your highest priority. It is the incorrect prioritization that gets us into trouble. You must sometimes choose between a big house, a fancy car or a nice vacation every year, tithing, or quality education (or healthcare). That’s where we can set ourselves a trap.
@Kevin
Folks that I know who trust in God and follow the money principles in the Bible usually dont go into bankruptcy. Like the USA today article the lil old lady cosigned on a daughters loan. IF one would read the Bible there are warnings not. Principles in the Bible to live on less than what you earn, save, stay out of debt give etc. The USA Today article had no facts to it.
One great question to ask: Why is USA today pointing out those who tithe whose houses are entering foreclosure when it is absolutely clear that the vast majority of those who houses are being foreclosed on do not?
March Hare and Damsel–PLEASE PLEASE email me for a copy of my article. I really want to share my article with you–even if we end up agreeing to disagree.
You can click on my name and you will automatically be directed to my myspace page where you can read my article or I would prefer to send it to you directly (with footnotes and all) if you email me at kmtesq@aol.com. I have this information listed in an earlier post.
I want to clarify that I do believe in giving. In fact, my charitable giving is literally 20-30% of my total income–In the last three years for example, I have purchased three vehicles for people who needed transporation; I have paid the monthly rent for 2 years for two individuals; I let a homeless woman who I did not know and her child (who I did know) live with me for three months until the mom was back on her feet and then I put the downpayment on her apartment and bought her living room and bedroom furniture; I have bought 6 to 7 mattress sets for individuals with out beds and I have given over $100,000 in five years to people in need. In fact, I have been told that I have a problem of giving too much which has caused me to go into debt (which is another issue altogether). The only reason I give these examples is that people think that because I am opposed to tithing, I am opposed to giving. This is not the case.
I am opposed to tithing because it is false doctrine and has no Biblical (New Testament) support. I am opposed to the teaching of any false doctrine because I think it is dangerous and it opens the door for any false doctrine to be taught in church. The Macedonians (in Acts) gave up all that they had so that those that were without could have food and shelter. I commend those who have a giving heart. In fact, I think the churches would raise more money if they taught their congregants to be Givers under the New Covenant than tithers under the Old Covenant.
I commend those who are Givers—but because there is NO BIBLICAL basis for Christians to tithe (as taught by the church today), I am opposed to it.
Again, I would love to share my article. I spent several years writing it–it is about 15 pages. Please have your Bible by your side because it is all Bibically based. I would love your response as well. My article is entitled “Am I A Thief? A Christian Perspective of Whether Tithing is Required By Christians.”
This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion. I hope it continues for several more days.
All,
To continue the story in my earlier post (#131), One year after my wife’s car accident, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. After multiple surgeries, chemotherapy, etc… she is doing fine now, cancer free. I bring it up because one payday after her sick leave ran out, again loosing her pay, my new job with the $6.00/hr raise kicked in. Some would say “WOW, what a coincidence!” I say thank you God!
Harold (Post #132) I think most of the problem people have with a ‘divine entity’ is they are trying to use a limited, finite mind to attempt to understand an unlimited, infinite one.
As for your question about where was the Lord when the accident happened, well bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. The way the Bible says it is ‘it rains on the just and the unjust.’ Bad times are going to happen, and the true test of our character is not whether we have the bad times, but how we handle them when they come.
Carolyn (Post #133),
HANG IN THERE!!!! Don’t forget the wisdom most of us learned at our grandmother’s knee, like ‘This too shall pass!’ It’s always darkest before the dawn, etc… I will remember you (and your husband) in my prayers.
P.S. I could give many examples of times God has helped us, sometimes using my church. In 2003, some relatives had a terrible car accident here in my hometown and spent 4 months recovering in my home, just to be well enough to travel back to their home across the country. During this time, our church brought us 3 complete meals every week, for 5 people, for four solid months!!! WHAT A BLESSING THAT WAS FOR US!!!
The tithe is intended to be a sacrifice and causes the person giving to live within their means. Faith based on not we are wealthy beyond most in the world and should give to what ever cause is in need.
All,
To continue the story in my earlier post (#131), One year after my wife’s car accident, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. After multiple surgeries, chemotherapy, etc… she is doing fine now, cancer free. I bring it up because one payday after her sick leave ran out, again loosing her pay, my new job with the $6.00/hr raise kicked in. Some would say “WOW, what a coincidence!” I say thank you God!
Shame on you. 50 years ago I wonder if she would have survived if it were not for the oncologists and other medical professionals. Thank them, not some mystical being.
Harold (Post #132) I think most of the problem people have with a ‘divine entity’ is they are trying to use a limited, finite mind to attempt to understand an unlimited, infinite one.
That’s exactly what you’re doing. You declare the existince of an infinite mind whose existence has yet to be demonstrated. Then you claim to understand, whether through personal revelation or “revealed texts”, the mind of this being. But how can you know that this entity (if it exists) “speaks” to you through the Bible and not some other book, if any? You can’t. And remember, the burden of proof rests with those who make these types of claims.
…As for your question about where was the Lord when the accident happened, well bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people.
That’s right, sometimes things just happen. Whimsically developing an external agency to explain it doesn’t contribute anything.
P.S. I could give many examples of times God has helped us, sometimes using my church. In 2003, some relatives had a terrible car accident here in my hometown and spent 4 months recovering in my home, just to be well enough to travel back to their home across the country. During this time, our church brought us 3 complete meals every week, for 5 people, for four solid months!!! WHAT A BLESSING THAT WAS FOR US!!!
This is very insular thinking. So, if a good thing happens (after a very bad thing) it’s the Lord helping you through these people? But of course it’s not responsible for the bad stuff. How convenient. All I ask is that you try and have a little more perspective here.
Take care
Harold, no one can prove scientifically or factually that a higher power (or powers, in the case of some religions) exists. If we could, then it would be easy for everyone to believe, wouldn’t it? It’s called “faith” for a reason. Yes, I agree that some people take it too far, but the same can be said about any set of beliefs (including democracy and consumerism).
There is nothing “whimsical” about what I believe, nor do I attribute things to some “fantasy being” or “an external agency” as a way to not take responsibility for my actions or the actions of others. I’m surprised that you insult people, and then actually expect them to seriously consider your ideas.
I’m a little weary of the “I’m right and you’re uneducated/unenlightened attitude” that both non-believers and believers seem to exhibit. It’s a shame some people can’t discuss ideas without resorting to superiority complexes and insults.
I’ll respond to this before I leave for work.
Harold, no one can prove scientifically or factually that a higher power (or powers, in the case of some religions) exists. If we could, then it would be easy for everyone to believe, wouldn’t it? It’s called “faith” for a reason. Yes, I agree that some people take it too far, but the same can be said about any set of beliefs (including democracy and consumerism).
Yes it called faith, or credulity. The willingness to accept something as important as the creation of the universe or the existence of a “supreme being” without evidence is irrational and irresponsible.
There is nothing “whimsical” about what I believe, nor do I attribute things to some “fantasy being” or “an external agency” as a way to not take responsibility for my actions or the actions of others. I’m surprised that you insult people, and then actually expect them to seriously consider your ideas.
You might not, be he does, and I took care to assume that he probably meant well but should have some more perspective. I acknowledged his responsible actions in saving and moving through his episode with his wife’s troubles.
I’m a little weary of the “I’m right and you’re uneducated/unenlightened attitude” that both non-believers and believers seem to exhibit. It’s a shame some people can’t discuss ideas without resorting to superiority complexes and insults.
Lol be weary all you want. I am discussing ideas, and I don’t or ever have claimed to know everything. But what he was saying is ridiculous, and I explained why. I don’t see why people want to hide behind this type of “Oh, I’m being condescended to” attitude when legitimate critisms are directed their way. Generally speaking, if we’re not ready to handle reasonable responses (and the same applies to me of course) then don’t get involved.
@Harold: Well, I guess that sooner or later this thread would devolve into a discussion about whether or not the universe was created. I know I won’t be able to convince you, as there are many others in the world who have written rather excellent books on intelligent design who are more erudite than I. Frankly, if I were to gamble upon it (and we all are to one degree or another), I’d say the odd are on the side of intelligent design.
Furthermore, archaeology has shown that many of the prophecies of the Bible have come true. In fact, there are over 200 prophecies that Jesus alone fulfilled. If that won’t convince you, nothing will. Even Jesus Himself was not believed by most who saw Him, and He Himself proclaimed that if the Jewish religious authorities did not believe what was written about Him in the Law of Moses, then they would not believe even One Who returned from the dead!
However, if you truly are interested in legitimate debate, why not tone down the charges of “irresponsible” and “irrational”?
Also, even the Bible shows that righteous individuals often suffer. The Book of Job isn’t unknown to you, surely.
ENOUGH!!!
This thread is beginning to degenerate into exactly what I did not want — an argument about religion. If you want to argue the merits of faith, do it elsewhere. There are thousands (millions?) of such threads on the internet, and each is as pointless as the last.
I am an atheist, but I’m not about to get into a religious debate at Get Rich Slowly. For one, it serves no purpose. For another, I believe the viewpoints of religious folk are just as valid as my own. I do my best to keep GRS politically and religiously neutral. Just because I don’t believe in a god doesn’t mean that other people have to believe like I do. And since other people do have religious sentiment and make their decisions based on this, it’s an important subject that needs to be addressed.
Please refrain from arguing the merits of religion in this thread. Further such comments will be summarily deleted. I’m not joking. Keep discussion to the matter at hand.
Thank you J.D.
I think this is a very valid discussion, but a fact that I see missing is what charity really is. Charity really means LOVE, not obligation. Even those of you who are atheist still admire the truth of 1 Corinthians 13 which is simply saying that giving up everything I have is worthless, unless I really love the person I am giving to. To me, that is the challenge of giving. Am I giving out of obligation, peer pressure or fear? Then I am getting no personal benefit. So in answer to the original post, you need to love someone else more than yourself to give up everything for them.
Thank you J.D. for bringing the discussion back on topic. It’s hard not to respond to criticisms about what you believe because it’s something so personal, but that’s not the goal here. I’m glad you have the integrity to not keep a heated debate going for the sake of web traffic.
@Ed M: I think you (and some others) make an important point that love is the over-arching principle in giving (for a Christian, at any rate; I cannot speak for others). God certainly looks upon the heart.
May I question something, though? If my wife’s birthday comes up, do I have an obligation to get her a gift? If I do have an obligation to get her a gift, does that mean I don’t love her? If I love her, then do I still have an obligation to buy her a gift? I hope you can see through this admittedly lame example that love and obligation do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Furthermore, if we are to love God and put Him first, then shouldn’t we also put Him first in our budget?
March Hare
Good point,
If you feel obligated to buy something for your wife, then do you also feel obligated to love her? If you love her without ever showing it in some way, is it LOVE? I believe love is an action and will be expressed in some way.Is love an obligation or a debt? I know why I want to show love to others but I can’t judge why others feel that same need
@JD
Whether Athiest, Christian, Morman etc I feel giving should be a part of our personal finance. If the Goal is get rich slowly you dont want to get to the finish line and be only focused on self. By giving to a cause monthly, it is a reminder to live on less than you make. Folks of all walks are amazed that when we do give that it doesnt reduce our lifestyle it enhances it!
March Hare: I do think it is important to clarify that the issue is not about Charity or Giving–it is about Tithing–10% of your income to the church. I understood the issue to be that many Christians believe that tithing is so important that they are willing to lose their home in order to continue with this practice.
This is what I strongly disagree with– the doctrine and practice of tithing–not the practice of Giving–not the practice of Charity–not the practice of Love–
Those who support this practice (tithing over everything else) are the people I am directing my inquiry.
What is the Biblical basis (I’d like to know scripture and verse) for this practice. What makes tithing to your church as you say– “putting God first.” This language sounds like “spiritual blackmail” to me. Here is my previously written opinion on what it means to put God first:
Reigning As True Sons and Daughters of God
Over 2000 years ago, God gave Mankind a most precious gift—His Son Jesus Christ, who died at Calvary for our sins. By the shedding of His Blood, Jesus redeemed us from sin and from the curse of the Law. As part of the New Covenant, He made me and all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior, an heir to His promise of abundant living and blessing, promised healing in our lives and free from Satan’s power and authority. It is a free gift given to us by God if we simply accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. This gift is given to us out of God’s grace and not because of anything that we have done or can do in our lives. Part of this gift includes the power as Sons and Daughters of God to be completely free from Satan’s jurisdiction and to live as Abraham’s seeds and heirs according to His promise. It is the most precious gift that I have ever received in my life.
Now, I am taught with the doctrine of tithing that Jesus’ death did not redeem me from the curse of the Law, but I have to pay nearly $1,300.00 on a bi-monthly basis to keep me free from the curse. I am taught that I have not been delivered from Satan’s authority unless I pay my local church money for this protection. I am taught that the power to bind Satan and cast him out comes from tithing and not from pleading the Blood of Jesus. I am implicitly told at offering time on Sunday that Jesus’ Death and Resurrection did not make me an heir to the promise, but my blessings will come from my works through the giving of tithes. This message is a trick of Satan. By allowing Christians to believe that their source of blessing and protection comes from their works (i.e. tithing) and not from the finished work of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant message is diminished if not completely destroyed. This is the problem with teaching tithing today.
Matthew E. Narramore, in his book “Tithing: Low Realm, Obsolete and Defunct,” zeroed in on the issue of why Christians need to be concerned about the prevalence of the tithing message in the Church today with the following observation:
The devil doesn’t mind tithing. He welcomes anything that will take our attention away from the truth in Christ. . . .Tithing is not a threat to the kingdom of darkness. The devil knows that the church would have more power, as well as money, if Christians were taught how to live like sons of God, who are in a spiritual union with Jesus Christ. He also knows that Christians could grow up spiritually and begin to reign in life if the confusion that comes from mixing the Old Covenant and New Covenant spiritual paradigms was removed from the church. That is more frightening to him than the increase of money that would flow into the church if the tithing mentality was abandoned. . . .[Satan] can’t defeat [the church] by direct attack so he uses deception. Power and victory come to believers through abiding in Christ with faith in His finished work. Satan’s strategy is to get their attention on other things that promise results but cannot deliver. . .The devil’s wooden horse is made of laws, rules, principles, formulas and other ways of living, borrowed from men who were not in spiritual union with Jesus Christ. Tithing is one of those things.
Contrary to popular belief, churches who teach tithing are not teaching their congregants to live like the Sons and Daughters of God in spiritual union with Jesus Christ. This is because the tithing doctrine contradicts the New Covenant and diminishes the death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are taught to put our faith in tithing as the source of our protection from Satan and our source of blessings from God. This is directly contrary to what the Word of God tells us about our source of power from God based upon the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ. As we examine the history of tithing under the Old Covenant, take down notes of what you have been taught about why tithing is important and discern for yourself whether it advances or destroys the power of Christ’s finish work on the Cross.
I pray at the conclusion of this study that when someone tells you in Old Covenant language that if you tithe, God will “open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it,” you will be able to respond in New Covenant language, that “ And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs according to his promise.” [Galatians 3:29]
If someone tells you in Old Covenant language, that if you do not tithe, “ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation [Mal. 3:9], you will be able to respond in New Covenant language that there is no curse upon us in Christ. Jesus Christ bore it and “hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.”[Galatians 3:13]
If someone tells you in Old Covenant language, that God will rebuke the devourer on your behalf if you tithe, you can tell him or her that Christ has already defeated Satan, redeemed us from his works and delivered us out of his authority. We are not waiting for God to rebuke the devourer. Instead, Christ has given his Sons and Daughters the authority and the responsibility to enforce His completed work and that is why the Bible tells us: “Behold I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.” [Luke 10:19]. The power to bind the devil and cast him out in the name of Jesus is not based upon whether one gives 10% of their income to a particular church, but is because of the shedding of the Blood of Jesus. Under the New Covenant, the Body of Christ is completely redeemed. Satan is defeated and we are no longer under sin or under a curse. The Blood of Jesus paid the debt 100% for our complete deliverance and there is nothing that we can do, even tithing, to add to it:
For as much as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precision blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without a spot. [1st Peter 1:18-19].
As Narramore further observes:
In the New Covenant, we are redeemed. It is finished work. It does not have to be redone every time we get a paycheck. Satan is defeated. We are not under his jurisdiction. We are not under a curse. The blood of Jesus paid the total price for our deliverance and there is nothing we can do to add to it.
In sum, God’s New Covenant principles for Giving and supporting the church is separate from and superior to any teaching of tithing. God has an ownership of 100% of us –which encompasses every aspect concerning us including our money, our time and our possessions. Under the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit will guide each person individually on what God requires from us, not some fixed percentage.
@KiminLosAngeles: Originally, I had a much longer answer to you, but it got eaten somehow, so I did send you a longer reply via email this morning. If you didn’t get it, check your spam filter. I’m not sure that the topic can be done justice via comments on a blog site.
I realize that not everyone will agree on the topic. I also realize I have a very different view of the New Covenant than you do. I have seen too many people that do cherry-pick Scriptures and try to throw away the rest. The question boils down to how far it will be taken. Is it now OK to tell a lie? Murder? Steal? If New Testament Christians are supposed to not do these things, then what can you point to that says tithing has been done away with as well?
Truly, the crux of your argument lies in how you define the New Covenant. Please see my email or see http://www.ucg.org/booklets/NC/NC.pdf for a different viewpoint. If you still believe that tithing contradicts the New Covenant, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Also keep in mind that a Church has an obligation to its members as well. It is a two-way street. The money I donate should not only be used if someone has a physical need, but it should be used to support the spreading of the Gospel. When it comes right down to it, the Church has a work to do, and it requires money to do it. It is not a suggestion, but it is a commandment to: 1. Preach the Gospel, 2. Make disciples. Both take time, money and effort.
Technically, if being “rich” means having x number of dollars, it will take longer to get rich by tithing. However, if rich is a feeling of generosity because you have more than you need, then you might never feel rich until you tithe. One of my favorite articles is on MSN, “Surviving and thriving on $12,000 a year.” I remember the author said that even on her low income, she supported charities because it made her feel rich. You can never feel that wealthy with money (because you’ll never be the richest) or when you buy a new product (because there’s a new version every year). But it’s an amazing feeling when you realize that you have enough money for yourself and for others and you can use your money to change the world, even a little bit.
J.D., I think your quandary is funny because I always equated this blog not with pursuing great monetary wealth, but with using your money to become the person you want to be. If you want to give, you should give. If you don’t, don’t. I guess it depends on determining what you really want to do with your money and what your long term goals are. That seems like something right up your alley.
Love this blog. Honestly, the only thing I come on the internet for besides MSN and email.
I used to tithe until I left a very repressive church- I felt obligated and there was no desire on my part to give. I am currently looking for a church and when I begin attending again, I plan on giving- I just don’t know how much yet.
I guess I’m tired of feeling pressured to give money to something I can’t always support wholeheartedly. I am curious though- if these people believe God commands 10%, do they also believe that all debt is wrong and debts should be erased every 7 years like they were in OT law? Do they believe slavery is still acceptable like it was in the Old Testament? Do they refuse to plant different kinds of seeds together, separate their milk and meat, and not wear fabrics made of multiple fiber types? I spent a year at a Bible college and would like to see where people stand on the issue. I feel that we Christians tend to pick and choose what parts of the Bible we wish to follow and ignore the others.
This tithing thing smacks of a huge scam. Boy would I feel horrible if I were a church leader and I asked people to give me 10% of their income when they can’t even pay for their basic necessities! Then doubly horrible when I made them feel guilty about the potential to not tithe.
Elizabeth, I whole-heartedly agree with your comment about this blog being about using money to become who you want to be. That’s why I love it too. Being “rich” for me isn’t about accumulating money, but managing my money enables me to be financially secure, to experience life and to help others.
Thanks, J.D.
I have a question: Is this issue only affecting Christians, or is that just the angle that USA Today used? I know that charity is one of the Five Pillars of Islam, and I’m sure it’s a requirement for many other religions too. (I sometimes wonder if Americans are hesitant to talk about Islam in the media.)
I’d be interested in hearing from someone who is not atheist or Christian.
I think that tithing is important and try to follow the ten percent rule myself. I’m not saying that this is the case in the example in your post, but I know many people who say they “can’t tithe” or they won’t be able to pay for their house, car, etc, but they go out to eat several times per week or buy electronics. I do not think that financial obligations should go unpaid to continue tithing. If you have cut out absolutely all extras and still do not have the money, you should pay your debts first. In my opinion, not paying what you owe is a form of lying since you gave your word to someone that you would pay them. I do not think God would want that. However, everyone has to make their own decisions about their spiritual lives.
This is one of several issues where many fundamentalists Christians have lost the ability to think for themselves - I know because I used to be in the same boat. You sit and listen to the same teaching week after week, year after year and you tend to turn off your critical thinking ability. In some of the churches I attended, many people tithed, but very few seemed to be abundantly blessed (we were in a rather low income community), and some really struggled. Of course the church can always offer some other reason why anything bad happens - if it’s something really bad then sooner or later they’ll invoke the devil as the all-purpose excuse (the devil is also useful for further destroying your critical thinking - read anything or view any media the church disapproves of and they can easily dismiss it by saying it’s “of the devil” - we even heard that description applied to certain BIBLE translations!).
However the fact is that the churches that tend to enforce tithing (or strongly urge it) usually construct a doctrine by stringing unrelated Bible verses together. It wasn’t until I Googled some web sites that dealt with tithing that I began to realize that we’ve been lied to. A few specific points:
1) Tithing was only mentioned as such in the Old Testament. Had it been a law for everyone, it would have been Jewish law, in the same category as Jewish dietary laws that Christians so easily ignore.
2) There is NO specific command ANYWHERE in the Bible for every believer to tithe a flat ten percent of their income (go ahaed, try to find it). To even come up with that doctrine, you have to really string together verses from different chapters and verses of the Bible, then construct your own meaning and teach that to people.
3) Jesus NEVER commanded anyone to tithe.
4) Paul (whom, I will note, may have been a reformed Pharisee but still tended to slip into lapses of pretty legalistic thinking from time to time) did not demand that anyone tithe. Instead, he wrote, “Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver.” Preachers are VERY fond of quoting the last five words of that verse, and either ignoring or quickly skimming over the first parts, ESPECIALLY the words “under compulsion.” To the degree that churches lay guilt trips on Christians for not giving, they are attempting to put their flock “under compulsion.”
5) Finally, going back to the origins of tithing - there are at least three differnet and unique cases in which tithing is mentioned but (with one exception) it was always a VOLUNTARY gift, usually given one time only. It was never an ongoing, lifetime commitment to give a fixed percentage of one’s income to support a clergy class or houses of worship. The ONLY case where a tithe was not voluntary was in the case where the Levites were required to give back a tithe, and that was only certain Levites under specific conditions (it did not even apply to the entire Jewish race, let alone people of today).
If you find a web page where someone had done some honest research (as opposed to attempting to defend a lucrative source of income for the clergy and the church establishment) you will find that the Biblical concept of tithing bears no relation whatsoever to the the demands and guilt trips laid out by many modern churches. If they can make you believe that God might smite you if you don’t give, well, that’s a pretty steady source of income for them. The only trouble is that it’s really NOT Biblical, but try to explain that to someone who’s been sitting under deliberately perverted teaching for most of their life, and they will probably accuse you of doing the devil’s work.
Sooner or later people will realize that what Jesus came to teach us is NOT what most churches today are preaching, not by a long shot. Jesus reserved his strongest condemnation for the religious leaders of his day, and I doubt he’d be any more pleased with the clergy of today, especially those who continue to demand tithes knowing full well they are twisting the scriptures to their own benefit, and knowing that some people under their care are losing their homes. These are the “wolves in sheep’s clothing” that Jesus spoke of.
I really don’t want too sound too harsh, but when it really comes down to it, some of these people are basically choosing to steal money and re-allocate it to their favorite charity. Don’t many religions have something against theft as well? Or are churches exempt and supposed to be beneficiaries of some twisted Robbin Hood logic?
@Greg C
This blog is about priorities. If a person makes a vow to God/supreme being or to himself to give a portion of thier income to a charity how is stealing? Greedy banks were willing to lend more and more credit to greedy people. Where in your budget do you put creditors and where do you put giving? Where in your budget do you put food, shelter and clothing? Its about personal priorities. How is it stealing if the bank gets control of the house? The article whas that some view giving comes before an oversized mortgaged house.
My husband and I always felt that if you had something to give, you were not poor. We did tithe most of our life and also more when we could. I am beginning to up mine again. I am retired and do not have all the millions that people say are required to retire comfortably. But I feel rich.
As for getting rich when tithing, I think of two sets of individuals. I can’t remember either’s names, but one wrote a book about it and another family just did it. They all gave 90% of their income to the Lord. They tithed as they went, even during the hard times and when good times came, they just kept upping the %. As one man said, “You can only wear one pair of pants at a time. You can only drive one car at a time. You can only live in one home at a time. Therefore, all the extras aren’t necessary.”
Both men came up with different ideas on how to earn money. One, back in the 40’s or 50’s learned to retract the silver from the photographic process and resell it. He even set up a legal foundation where the money was to go to God and a panel would decide which place it would help best.
The other man and his brother came up with a design for small construction equipment that could be used reasonably priced and sent overseas. I think his name was Shields and he was from Iowa. So you can get rich and tithe, a lot.
Noticed this has been going on for a while so I hope someone reads this.
As a matter of disclosure I do belong to an organized religion but one that believes you should give what you can, not a tithe.
I think it is interesting that the widow’s mite was brought up, technically she gave 100%, and the illustration was meant to show us that we should give from our hearts whether to God or charity. It seems that tithing in some way defeats that purpose as people are told to give a specific amount because they have too.
Something that bothered me was when Bill said “Letting it(their home) go into foreclosure is indeed fulfilling their obligation - borrowers are obliged to continue to pay the mortgage, OR let the lender take possession of the house.”
I think people must be joking if they think foreclosure is any real fulfillment of their obligations, especially with sliding values. It is a consequence of not fulfilling their obligations. If you are following the Bible which says let your yes mean yes and your no mean no, at what point is it okay to dismiss a promise if you have any other choice. Borrowers are obliged to pay the mortgage for as long as they have the means and then suffer the consequences of their actions.
Many religions that have tithing do acknowledge that their parishioners fall on hard times and request volunteer service instead of tithing. Those who are homeless or have literally nothing should not be made to feel less because they can’t give anything except their time and heart.
I do think it’s sad that some people seem to feel that God won’t love them if they can’t tithe. So much for belief in love and undeserved kindness.
J.D., as far as charity goes it is difficult to know what to do sometimes. I am a firm believer in “charity begins at home” and want to make sure that my family and adopted family (friends) are doing well. As a possible for you: I have an airline miles reward card that matches a percentage of my miles for donation to a charity. I pick one that flies families to needed medical care. You should be able to find a no annual fee card that supports your favorite charity through a matching percentage of your purchases, and it might get you excited about giving a little more. And I trust you certainly know the smart way to use cards.
I also try to click on sites like http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com and when I buy online buy from organizations who support my favorite charities.
Wow! I think some people may be unaware of how a few poor choices combined with difficult times and unexpected circumstances can lead to financial failure/disaster in such a short period of time.
I looked at this woman’s mortgage payment and thought, “what do you buy for $500/month?” Then I noted her $200/mo. tithe and was shocked that her income is so small. At that level of income it only takes a couple of missteps or a disastrous car repair, an accident and unexpected fall leading to medical bills, combined with rising gas and food prices to destroy one’s ability to meet obligations which were taken prudently and made good sense at the time they were taken. Also, if further posts are accurate that her dilemma came about by a child’s failure to pay the mortgage that she had gotten her mother to sign for–SHAME on the daughter. Haven’t we all known older people who were easily shamed, guilted or manipulated into “helping” their greedy, conniving and unscrupulous children or grandchildren?
The tithe is a separate issue, it seems to me. Many people have $200 worth of expenses that another person would find unjustified because they do not meet with their own personal goals and ideals.
For me, having some physical disabilities means that I have to spend money on people performing tasks that most people would do themselves to reserve my energy for work. I do not cook every meal that I eat, I do not perform all my own yard work, or perform my own home repairs. That is a choice which makes sense in MY budget because of my physical limitations. For most people those things would be the most egregious extravagance.
There are certain things we do as a matter of conscience and one should not be required to go against their own conscience, even if it is to their own financial detriment. Tithing is a spiritual and financial discipline. It is an acknowledgement among people of faith that their provision is from God as the ultimate source, though he may use your job or other means as the instrument of that provision.
It seems that many people have decided that this predicament is because of foolish choices on this woman’s part. In her individual circumstances there may be things which the most rational and prudent person would not have done. I respect her for making a decision in align with her conscience, even if some of her previous choices were foolish.
I’m glad to know there are so many people out there in the blogosphere who have never made foolish choices that have brought them grief. If only I could say the same. The difference is that at my stage of life I have many years to work off the consequences of my own foolishness.
@michecox: I guess I just have to answer this one, as it seems that any time any Biblical discussions come up with nonbelievers, the issue of slavery is inevitably brought up. It’s especially amusing since the vast majority of white people who aided slaves in the Underground Railroad and tried to pass legislation against slavery were Christians who used the Bible as the framework for their arguments that all races were created in the image of God.
The short answer is that slavery in ancient Israel was generally one of two types, but it was not of the sort or scale of what happened in this country. While I’m sure that some did mistreat slaves that were captured during warfare, even slaves were permitted certain rights under OT law. For instance, if a slave ran from his or her master, you were not permitted to capture the slave and force him or her to return. It is important to remember that God laid down laws oftentimes because He knew the hardness of peoples’ hearts. Christ said Moses permitted divorce. In ancient warfare, it was usually better to be captured alive than to be killed. [We in our modern societies often truly don't understand war and all of its horrors. We have sanitized it.]
However, most slaves in Israel were not even of that variety. Most sold themselves as indentured servants, usually from some type of financial mismanagement, but there could have been other reasons as well. The lesson, to me, shows you can be faithful in all other aspects, but if you are not financially prudent, you still have to face the consequences.
Maybe your other points were Providential, though
Do you realize that our bankruptcy laws were patterned after the seven year cycle you mention? That’s why you cannot declare bankruptcy more than once in seven years. Think of it, though. If we had a Year of Jubilee like Israel did (or, rather were supposed to), then it would rectify a lot of the problems that have accumulated in our economy. It has to be better than what we are going through right now, and it certainly keeps us from passing our mistakes on for generations unending.
As far as mixing seeds and breeding mules, our experimentation in various areas of agriculture have often had disastrous results. Of course, those mistakes are likely to be nothing compared to what will be unleashed when someone makes a mistake with some of this GMO food! Why do we always think we can “improve” upon nature?
Actually, there is a web page I found that addresses the seeds and breeding of animals, and it has a tie-in to tithing. Paul uses examples from the OT to make his points, and that includes that he has the “right” to eat and drink. Now, if he has this “right”, then where did it come from if not from a tithe? An offering may or may not be made, but a tithe would be certain. See: http://www.godslawislove.org/leviticus19verse19.htm
@MarchHare:
“It’s especially amusing since the vast majority of white people who aided slaves in the Underground Railroad and tried to pass legislation against slavery were Christians who used the Bible as the framework for their arguments that all races were created in the image of God.”
Be careful with that…the majority of people who owned slaves were also Christians, and used the bible as a framework for their arguments that some races were inferior to others, and that it was acceptable to deprive others of their liberties (especially the “heathen” non-Christians.) It was also used by Christians not too long ago (and even still, depending on where you are) to justify that the races should be separated and that integration was therefore against God’s plan.
So be careful when using slavery/abolition to demonstrate the morality of believers. It trivializes the issue and neglects the truth that the Bible has been used as tool for evil aims as well as the good.
@anna: I debated whether or not to answer this, mostly because it is certainly going off topic. I will attempt to be brief.
I am not trying to demonstrate the morality of the believers. I am trying to highlight what the Bible actually says vs. some common misconceptions.
Yes, people have always used the Bible, the Koran, the Constitution, etc, to justify all sorts of bad and even evil behavior. I am well aware of that, and I won’t deny that people have done that in regards to slavery. I am reminding those who are wont to bring it up that there is another side. In essence:
1. Even after re-reading it, I don’t see where I trivialized “the issue”, which I assume from context to be slavery. Pointing out a historical fact, and it is a fact, does not trivialize it.
2. When people do bring up slavery in the Bible, it is often done in order to trivialize the Bible or some doctrine that someone holds (such as tithing).
3. Peter wrote that people twist Scripture. Even Jesus said many would call him “Lord” but not obey Him. The Bible is not shy about this, so I’m not going to shy away from something just because others have recklessly handled the Bible. A knife can be a tool or it can be a weapon in the wrong hands. The Bible is referred to as a “two-edged sword”. In the wrong hands, a lot of people including the wielder can get hurt.
The most important point of all is that critics’ arguments about slavery and the Bible really seems strange to me because that really is the message of the Gospel. Jesus came to free people from their sins. Humanity, and as a consequence the earth itself, has been held captive by evil since Adam and Eve left the Garden. Unfortunately, most people seem to get a case of Stockholm Syndrome and identify with the cause of the enemy instead of God. The message of freedom from the bonds of sin should be evident not only to anyone who has studied the NT but also in the story of the Exodus.
Freedom doesn’t mean that there aren’t laws to obey. I cannot, for instance, shout “Fire!” in a dark theater where there is no fire and then claim it is free speech. There are limits. Just as there is a Law of Gravity, there are spiritual laws as well. When people oppress one another, ignore the poor, they are breaking those spiritual laws. Not just the individual suffers, either. Society is weakened by acts of greed and malice every day. Whole countries suffer when war breaks out. Need I go on?
More on topic: Is tithing one of those principles that is to be obeyed? I think so. Like the rest of Scripture, that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been abused by greedy individuals, so I think it is important to search out how your money is being used. “Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel” (1Co 9:14). If a church is not preaching the Gospel, then as a Christian, I will find somewhere else to give my money. If a church is not helping the poor (Gal 2:10), I will find somewhere else to give my money.
@ march hare:
No, you don’t need to go on. My point was that if you want to say this:
“Jesus came to free people from their sins. Humanity, and as a consequence the earth itself, has been held captive by evil since Adam and Eve left the Garden.”
Then just do so.
But as you’ve acknowledged in the second post, people use their religions to justify both good and bad deeds. In the first, that wasn’t stated. My point was that people tend to cherry-pick when using their faith to prove their actions, and by doing so, imply that because their faith has instructed them to do an act, the act must also be good.
This was why the slavery comment was trivial: it was a too-simplistic answer to a complex question, because you ignored the equation people like to make:
my faith = good
my faith tells me to do *something*
*something* = good.
The problem that I have when faith is used for anything, be it slavery to tithing, to what words to use to address the Divine, is not that it involves the supernatural.
My problem is that people are often taught not to question their faith, or their religion (religion here being an organization of a faith.) They take it as a point of fact that the world does or should behave in the way they were told, and if there’s evidence to contradict that, the evidence is lacking. Because of this mindset, I think that it becomes very easy to neglect questioning the actions that their religion tells them to do, even when it may contradict the message of their faith.
Posters here have elaborated how, at least in Christianity, the message of faith in Jesus is not addressed by the mosaic laws that required tithing. This is a valid critique, and yet, churches (religion) instruct people to act in a different way than Bible may direct them to do.
The problem, in my opinion, is not that their faith or their religion instructs them to tithe. It’s that there’s little room for the individual to consider (or reconsider) this request, even when the individual’s situation is financially shaky. My issue here is that the question of “is is good just because my religion tells me” is resolutely answered in the most trivial way: “yes” by lack of inquiry.
I have a lot of respect for those who follow their principles, even if it requires huge sacrifices (I respect it even to the point of sacrificing one’s life for their views.) But I have no respect for those institutions who direct their members to swallow principles that the members themselves would not have adopted w/o the social and religious pressure of their church. This was the other part missing from your previous comment: potential misuse of religious authority, and the winners/losers in these situations.
If a person in their heart, upon reflection and a clear understanding of their obligations, feels that a percentage of their income goes to the church w/o fail, then I have no critique about that action.
But when someone is coming to it with a troubled heart (regardless of financial situation) and is told that they must do this act or stand against God’s plan…I find it very troubling. Speaking only from a Christian framework (I know very little of other faiths,) my understanding is that we come to God freely, and not with our heads under the boot.
Good grief! People are still commenting on this
One of the difficulties in reading and interpreting the Bible is that it was written (or rather, its parts were written) in a completely different time period where there were different social rules and expectations. (I won’t even get into how and when the books of the Bible were selected, translated and published).
What it boils down to is this: We’re left with a document that we somehow have to make sense of in our current circumstances. The Bible has been interpreted, misinterpreted and re-interpreted, used and abused perhaps more than any other book. It’s no wonder why Christians are so confused, and why their beliefs and actions are so different.
I think the USA Today article is blowing things out of proportion. How widespread an issue is tithing at the cost of losing your home? I haven’t heard of a single case in the news here in Canada.
March Hare: I find it interesting that pastor’s often quote the verse that you cited to in the New Testament as a basis for Christians to tithe. However, the New Testament reference to having ministers get paid for spreading the Gospel completely contradicts what is taught in the Old Testament regarding tithing and shows why the New Testament should govern the manner in which Christians give.
Ministers often say that they are the same as the Levitical priest who received the tithe (in the OT) and thefore they should receive the tithe today. Assuming that the tithe to the Levitical priest could somehow be analogous to the giving of the tithe to the church today (which I strongly disagree that any church could compare itself to the Holy Levitical Priesthood), why then do ministers disregard the other requirements of the Mosaic Law relating to the tithe to In the Levitical priest. For example, Deuteronomy 18:1-2 states: “The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and his inheritance. Therefore, shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the Lord is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
In particular, the Levitical Priest were not to own property. The Bible says,
Remember that the priest and all the other members of the Levite tribe will not be given property like the other tribes. So the priest and the Levites are to be supported by the sacrifices brought to the alter of the Lord and by the other offerings the people bring to him. They don’t need to own property, for the Lord is their property. That is what He promised them.”
Certainly, many of these ministers with their mega churches, mega homes, jets, bentleys and other fancy cars don’t follow this part of the commandment relating to the tithe. What is the Biblical basis for disregarding this part of the law with respect to the so-called tithe?
Here’s an interesting article from Time magazine that’s related to this article.
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1847053,00.html?cnn=yes
First of all, its only tithing if you give 10% (thus the root of the word ‘tithe’ which means tenth).
Second, is there any consideration to the cost of the home that the person is living in/being foreclosed on, in relation to their overall financial decisions? I don’t think I read that anywhere in the article. So are we to think that a person should not give at all when we are living in a house that they may or may not be able to afford in the first place?
Last, I believe that combined with WISE financial decisions, you can give, live, and thrive.
An increadable amount of wisdom has been posted here.
Tithing isn’t the problem. It is the debt. God wants us to not be in debt. When we are, we are to pay it. Jesus taught that if you go to the temple and realize that your brother has a greivance (debt) against you; then leave the sacrifice and settle the greivance. When the issue is settled, return to complete your sacrifice. He also taught that if someone comes to claim your coat for payment, give him your shirt as well. In other words, don’t allow some one to accuse you of woeing them.
Ultimately, God wants to bless us. We have debt, because we have acted against his blessing and pledged our money to every vendor of wim and whimsey.
I would say that being able to tithe is the ultimate challenge to your financial prowess. If you are living within your financial means, you should be able to save 10%, tithe 10% and waist 10%. If you can’t, you are probably choking on debt.
Yes God’s word The Bible says we are to give him our first fruits. The Bible says it is to go into his store house. Those first fruits are used to aid the widows, orphans, the poor and those serving in the tabernacle. No where does God tell us to build buildings for Him. He was happy in a tent, but allowed His people to build the temple when thye wanted to be like other nations. (An early example of keeping up with the Smith’s and Jones’)
I am always disturbed when congregations go into debt to construct building. A church is not a building. The church is the collection of believers. As Peter described it, “… made with living stones.”
Summary, don’t be in debt! If you are, pay your bills. Pay cash. Tithe of your abundance.
God has those who love Him tithe not because He needs our money, but because we need to be broken from depending on money as our source and throw our dependence back on Him. Because He has saved those who truly repent and put their trust in Him alone for salvation from a fate much worse than our finite human minds can even imagine, we *gladly* obey. We talk more about it in an article on our site here: http://reijourney.blogspot.com/2008/11/tithing-on-gross-vs-net-what-exactly-is.html
Hey Bro they are giving there first fruits to God Jesus Christ are Lord homie cause they are obeying Him and trusting that they will be given all of there needs acording to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus
Imagine my surprise when I saw a comment on this in my email today! I guess comments do not get closed around here, even after a long time.
Some things have changed since I posted a lot of what I wrote. I have not changed my mind, either, even though I myself have been out of work since October. Yes, we are struggling, but at least my wife is still working, and yes we do tithe on her income. Obviously, we have had to make some hard decisions, but God will bless our persistence and faith in the end.
But, you know what? Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah (better known as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego) had a tougher choice. Their response was revealing.
“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the [trial] … But [even] if [He does] not, be it known unto thee … that we will not [disobey God].”
There are many religious organizations that take the Bible and distort it even for the good. I graduated from high school in Layton Utah and the Latter Day Saints were some of the most holiest people that I have ever been around. In addition, my cousin, who is a Jehovah’s Witness is living a very good life based upon her church’s distortion of the Bible.
I believe that it is equally wrong to distort the Bible in the Name of Jesus (good reasons) as well as for bad. Those who equate tithing and firstfruits all as the same as offering are doing exactly the same. Clearly, if you read the Bible, there is a difference between firstfruits and tithes as well as offerings. For Christians to try to argue that this is the same as modern day tithing are distorting the Bible and undermining the purposes these different rituals to God by the Israelites.
If you read the Old Testament, in addition to the three tithes, there were offerings that were required to be given. For example, gleanings, allowed the needy to pick up fruit that had fallen to the ground during the harvest (Leviticus 19:9-10; 23:22); the temple tax of one-third shekel was used to pay for the ongoing operations of the Temple (Nehemiah 10:32-33); and the Sabbath year offering required a mandated sacrifice of one’s entire income for a year every seventh year (Exodus 23:10-11). In addition to the first six tithes and offerings, there were two other personal offering that allowed the Israelites the discretion to determine how much they wanted to give: these were the firstfruit and freewill offerings. Firstfruits were not the same as the tithe. Unlike the tithe that was mandatory, firstfruits were voluntary and there were specific instructions of when and how they were to be given to the Lord. Contrary to what we are taught, the Law of First Things was also a separate commandment and unrelated to tithing. In Exodus 13:2, we see God’s commandment on this different spiritual principle:
Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
This offering referenced above was a one-time event unlike the tithe that was an annual event. Indeed, the giving of the tithe, the various offerings (heave offerings, wave offerings, sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings, trespass offerings and meal offerings.) as well as the giving of first fruits, were all distinct ceremonial laws with different purposes.
It is puzzling that some churches today conclude that these various types of ceremonial practices can all be accomplished through the giving of money (i.e. 10% of their income).
My question is that if we are purportedly following the Bibles mandate, why are we not doing all of these different ceremonial rituals today.
Email me at kmtesq@aol.com for my full article on tithing.
Kim the Bible says to give your first fruits all that you make to God it does not say that you have to give 10% to your church it say you have to give 10% to God He leads us who to give it to…. widows orfans poor people in need. Latter Day Saints is a cult because they believe in Joesph Smith. Jehovah’s Witness is also a cult they are crazy and are trying to live by the law to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 (King James Version)
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 4 (King James Version)
Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.