Could Tithing Lead Some Americans to Lose Their Homes?
Published on - September 28th, 2008 (by J.D. Roth) Last week, USA Today featured an article on Christians who continue to tithe even as they face foreclosure.
Tithing is the practice of donating 10% of your gross income to your church. It’s not a common practice (only 5% of American adults tithe), but it’s important to those who choose to do so. It’s a component not just of Christianity, but other religions as well.
But what happens when tithing interferes with your ability to pay the mortgage? The USA Today article explores this conflict.
“I’ve had home owners who face foreclosure sitting in front of me saying, ‘I’ll do anything, anything to keep my home,” said Ozell Brooklin, director of Acorn Housing in Atlanta, a nonprofit which offers foreclosure counseling.
“But after we’ve gone through their monthly expenses and the only thing left to cut is their tithe, they say ‘I guess this home is not for me’ and they walk away,” he said.
The article discusses just how important this conviction is for some people, and how they’re willing to sacrifice their homes in order to continue tithing. “To stay current on the $500 monthly mortgage, [one woman] was faced with giving up a tithe to her local evangelical church of around $200 a month. Instead, she let the property go into foreclosure.”
For many people, tithing is the most important part of their budget. Even before the age-old admonition to “pay yourself first” (which means to set money aside into savings before paying your bills), these folks donate money to church or charity. There’s nothing wrong with this, but it can lead to financial decisions that most people never face.
But is tithing really the reason some people face foreclosure? Or is the financial distress a symptom of deeper problems?
Tithing is another reminder that financial decisions aren’t all about the numbers. Our personal convictions affect our choices. I frequently say that money is more about mind than it is about math; our decisions are influenced more by our psychology and emotions than they are by the arithmetic of the situation. But sometimes our financial decisions are also subject to other forces, such as religious beliefs and personal convictions.
Note: Get Rich Slowly does not take a stand on religious or political issues. I’m presenting this topic for discussion because I think it’s fascinating, not because I want to promote or denigrate any particular point of view. Although I don’t tithe to church or charity, I respect and admire those who do. Please be considerate in the comments.
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I just want to say this has been one of the most fascinating GRS discussions we’ve ever had. I love the diversity of beliefs.
I am not religious, but I was raised in a church that strongly adhered to the 10% tithe. When I was a teenager, my family began attending a church with a voluntary offering. Charitable giving outside church donations wasn’t something my parents ever discussed. Maybe this was because we were poor ourselves — I don’t know.
As I’ve mentioned, as an adult, I wrestle with this issue. I’m sure it’ll be something I write about more in the future. Reading all of your comments, though, makes me realize that people can and do give all the time, and that there’s no reason for me not to do so…
Thank you all for such a civil, interesting discussion.
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This is fascinating.
On the whole donating even though you’re losing your house – that could be partly because if you give regularly it makes you feel richer, and also most people don’t want to be the recipients of charity.
After all, this tithe money should be used for something productive, why aren’t the people in foreclosure seeking help from their churches?
JD I started doing the small donation thing, and it’s easier than you think. I usually increase it with each pay rise and I’m hoping to get it up to a nice high figure eventually.
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Very interesting topic J.D.
I will tell you my situation and see how it fits in with the rest of America these days. My wife and I go to church, a very small one. Tithing is NOT the main focus of the church even though we take up tithes/offerings every service. Its not forced down our throats that “we need to tithe”. We are reminded what the Bible says about it from time to time but that is normal. In saying that…we tithe based on our what we can give at the time, it may be 1%, it may be 15%…it just depends on how much we have to give that week or month. There are so many different viewpoints on this topic but it really depends on what the Bible says, that’s it period! Yes, in the Old Testament, 10% was mentioned. In the New Testament (I have not found a scripture that specifically says a certain amount) Basically, you give according to your heart.
I am in a bad place financially (one reason I love reading this website) but if I had a house about to be forclosed on, and some credit cards about to go into collection….I would still tithe, pay the house mortgage. The credit cards WOULD BE THE LAST THING I WOULD BE WORRYING ABOUT! Of course that statement only matters if these people that are letting their property go also have credit cards that they are paying. There is no point in letting your house get taken from you when a person worked so hard to get it in the first place.
Bottom line, you can’t afford NOT to tithe….(sorry if this statement crosses the line)
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Lots of interesting comments here on both sides of the argument. Though as a Christian who gives > 10% of my *gross* I have a thought to add:
The people who argue whether or not 10% is biblical or logical or whatever I believe are missing the point: it’s not the amount, it’s the priority. What do you put first: God, or other stuff? Do you trust Him or do you trust money? 10%, whether or not it’s specifically called for, is an amount says, “yes, I trust God and I am willing to live my life reflecting that.” Some people will do it legalistically, but I hope that most will chose to do it as a conscience decision to show their faithfulness to God.
Optimally, Christians should give even more than that, such that as much as it’s possible, all poverty and hardship is eliminated. C.S. Lewis does a good job discussing this issue in Mere Christianity and implores us not to give a specific amount, but to instead “give until it hurts.” Tithing/giving requires sacrifice, just as being a follower requires sacrifice–what one does with their money is a good indication of where their heart lies.
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@Mary Sue: I assume you are talking about the Rich Young Man who wanted to be a disciple of Jesus. Please notice the context. He claimed to have kept all of the commandments since his youth. However, which commandment did Jesus leave out? The 10th. Jesus knew the Rich Young Man’s heart better than the Rich Young Man did. That is why he left in tears. It is also why Jesus followed it up by saying that it is easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of God. We are not commanded to give *everything* to the poor, but we are certainly admonished in several places to take care of the poor. Not all Christians are called to be in a life of poverty, although some may be. However, whatever gifts, physical or spiritual, are to be used to benefit those who cannot repay us (and that is a commandment, look it up).
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People, there are two things being discussed here. The initial issue was about tithers who cannot afford their mortgages. The answer to that is simple: If you are committed to tithing then you must base your financial commitments on your income minus your tither. The second issue (which the conversations morphed into) was whether the tithe is a command to Christians. This is obviously not so for reasons and others have given ad infinitum. Giving is a trademark of a Christian, but that does not mean that all giving (whatever percentage or varying amount is decided) must go to one ministry. In some cases, Christians give to one ministry (usually the church they attend) and trust them to get it to the needy. If you cannot trust your church administrators or you don’t think they are on the ball where finding the right outlets are concerned, then by all means do your own research and divide your giving up accordingly, giving to your local church whatever you feel is needed for upkeep of the facility and the pastor’s needs and finding your own separate charities (which could be a neighbor down the road who has fallen on hard times). Are you under a curse if you end up giving less than 10%? No! What does God want you to give? Ask Him! He’ll tell you. Who does God want you to give to? Again, ask Him! He’ll tell you. Don’t ask an evangelical pastor. He will tell you that his church facility is the temple as mentioned in Malachi. That is a lie. Most of them believe this so they can justify getting more money than they need. Read 2 Corinthians 9:7 to see what a tithing Pharisee turned Christian urged the church in Corinth to do regarding giving.
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a note about tithing as an obligation as a Christian
Tithing or not tithing has no impact on going to heaven, nor does helping old ladies cross the street, or cheating and stealing. Christianity is a doctrine of grace – heaven is a free gift from God that you cannot earn, only accept. The Old Testament tithe is not an obligation, it is a model for how God has told people in the past to give. God has told us to give, to help widows, orphans, prisoners and the poor. We obey Him because He knows what he is doing, and we believe that his guidelines for living will make our lives better. Its the same reason that we want our children to obey us – not because we’ll whip out the will to disinherit them if they don’t, but because we want them to be safe, happy and good, and the boundaries we put up will help them be just that.
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I appreciate this article and all the comments. I like hearing so many viewpoints on this topic. I try to stay within my means and already live frugally — but I find it hard to give back.
I like the idea to start with $5 or $10 a month. I think it’s a great place to start.
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I doubt tithing would lead to people losing their homes in and of itself. As others have pointed out, some of the tithers likely overextended themselves, either by buying too much house, or by being squeezed by an ARM they hadn’t thought through.
I wonder how many tithers who ended up with unaffordable mortgages were expecting God to provide because they were tithing? How many tithers going into foreclosure believe that it’s “God’s will” that they’re losing their homes now?
I don’t think God had a lot to do with the real estate bubble or the current subprime mortgage/foreclosure/banking mess. (Greed, dishonesty, selfishness, and irresponsibility aren’t attributes of the God I believe in.)
We don’t tithe, but we give significantly to nonprofits we believe in, but nowhere near 10% of our gross or net income.
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If you are a member of a church and regularly attend, then you need to help support the church, and generally, that means tithing.
J.D., my favorite charity is Heifer.org. One thing that has made it easier for me to give is rolling a charitable donation in with a gift (i.e. spending more on a gift than I normally would, but the gift is in the person (or family) name to the Heifer.org not stuff to someone). This has led to other people also supporting this organization. Maybe $120 seems like a lot of money to donate, but buying a goat for a family in a developing country makes it easier in some way because it is something concrete as opposed to not knowing what happens to the money you donate.
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There is much discussion on a number of issues here that I won’t address, but if a tithing member is financially distressed, I would encourage them or any member of any church to seek out their church leadership for help and wisdom, *before* it comes to making a decision between tithing and foreclosure (or any such hard decision). Most churches have some access to Dave Ramsey’s resources at the very least, if not better. Good church leadership wants their flock to be good stewards of their finances.
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Let’s be honest here, folks. This is a nice, warm, fuzzy topic, and a great opportunity for everyone to pat themselves on the back, but giving away money is quite simply the dumbest thing you can possibly do if your goal is to “Get Rich Slowly.” All the confessions and criticisms about overspending on status symbols and wasting money on snacks at the movie theater are still better – financially speaking – than just plain giving money away.
The bottom line is, it makes no sense at all to pinch pennies, and maximize interest rates with savings accounts and credit card arbitrage, and wash and re-use sandwich bags, then turn around and just give the money away.
Those of you who give money away, I hope it makes you feel better about yourselves, but don’t kid yourself into thinking it has any place in a wealth-building program. It can only hurt you.
Those of you who don’t donate, don’t feel bad about it. Everyone’s gotta “do what works for them.” And what works for me is to hang on to my money and put it to work for me, so I can leave the rat race while I’m still young enough to enjoy it.
I am curious about one thing, though. To those of you who tithe 10% of your income to the church (as the Bible allegedly commands), what happens when you retire, and live off your retirement savings? That’s not really “income,” because it’s just money you saved after you’d already paid your tithe. Do you count that money again, and tithe another 10%? If some of it is interest income or capital gains, do you tithe on that, but not the principle portion you may be drawing down? Or are you off the hook at this point, and don’t have to tithe at all? Is there even a rule for this?
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Maybe the house payment was out of order and not the tithing
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Read the article, thanks JD for the link. Do have issues with USA Today and lack of journalism. This article smacks of sensationalism
1. New Testament doesnt command 10%. There is examples to follow that is how 10% came about.
2. In the article it talks about one elderly lady who cosigned for a daughter. There are several scriptures that talks about the folly of cosigning.
3. There are other scriptures that talk about paying what you owe.
4. Whether you are christian or not there is no better joy in giving. I will pinch pennies to continue monthly giving.
Hard to imagine that the local believers “Christians” would let another believer go “homeless”. If so they are not following the Bible
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Canadian Kevin, my apologies but I’m afraid that you’re wrong about giving and wealth. Here’s the relevant article: http://www.entrepreneur.com/growyourbusiness/portfoliocombusinessnewsandopinion/article185662.html
Giving, it seems, really does stimulate prosperity.
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Venecia@115: That’s an interesting link, but if you strip away all the statistical and economic double-speak, it comes down to the suggestion that if people see you behaving charitably, you’re more likely to get a promotion at work:
“Experiments have also found that people are elevated by others into positions of leadership after they are witnessed behaving charitably.”
Also, I’ll cite “The Millionaire Next Door,” Chapter 1, “Portrait of a Millionaire”:
“I am a tightwad. That’s one of the main reasons I completed a long questionnaire for a crispy $1 bill. Why else would I spend two or three hours being personally interviewed by these authors? They paid me $100, $200, or $250. Oh, they made me another offer – to donate in my name the money I earned for my interview to my favorite charity. But I told them, ‘I am my favorite charity.’”
Real millionaires – the ones who know what it takes to achieve financial independence – don’t give away huge sums of money. It’s simply counterproductive. There’s no way that giving money away can improve your financial situation. It may make you feel good about yourself for a while, and if you feel your life sucks, then maybe a little ego boost is what you need, but in the long run, it worsens your financial situation. It is an obstacle to wealth accumulation, not an enabler. And while I’ve no issues debating the ethical and moral virtues of charitable giving, there’s no denying that it works in direct opposition to the supposed stated goal of this website – getting rich.
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@Canadian Kevin: Well, I guess that depends upon your definition of “rich”. If you mean lots and lots of money, then, yeah, a lot of people have gathered it in selfish and dubious ways. On the other hand, if you view money as a tool, then saying that giving it away doesn’t improve your financial situation can depend upon a lot of things, but it mostly depends upon your viewpoint.
As a Christian, I believe the proverb that says “Cast your bread upon the waters, and it will return to you sevenfold.” That may or may not be monetary wealth. OTOH, if it is money, then I also believe that God does sometimes grant wealth in order to help others.
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The problem with these people is a religious mindset. I am a Christian and though, by our country’s standards, my husband and I (and our four children) would not be considered “rich” – still we have given upwards of $100,000 to church and charity over 26 years of marriage. Still, I would say to these people that God cares as much about the contract they made to pay this debt, as He does about their tithes. They can always “catch up” later when times get better for them, if they feel led. But again, the most important thing is: what about the contract they made to pay this money?
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I don’t think this topic is at odds with the title of this blog. While giving money away itself won’t contribute to personal wealth, I think that including charitable giving as part of your budget is a wise financial decision.
For example, if you plan for it and set limits, you’re not giving into every emotional appeal that comes your way. (Ergo, you are not over extending yourself or overspending) Also, if you take the time to investigate where your donations are going, you can avoid organizations that waste money or others that are outright scams.
Obviously, you won’t accrue as much personal wealth as if you kept and invested the money, but if you have a plan you can help others and help yourself. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
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I grew up in a church where tithing was a very priority commandment. Aside from arguments re: ‘gross v. net income – what do we tithe’ (I tithed net), it was just a done thing in our family.
My dad worked as an accountant (which explains why gross v. net even came up) and he volunteered as the church accountant. It broke his heart how few of our fellow churchgoers paid tithing. He’d never name names, but I knew that was his biggest crisis in faith.
I don’t participate in that anymore, but at least knowing I’ve paid over $1k in charity in my life makes me feel okay about myself.
I can understand both sides of the argument, but I appreciate that the people would rather tithe than foreclose. You can argue whether or not that’s responsible as a consumer, but I think there are fewer people who really stick by all their beliefs than there are ideal consumers, and I really appreciate their honesty and determination to stick by their values. Really, this doesn’t hurt anyone and I don’t see how it could upset anyone.
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@ Canadian Kevin – giving won’t prevent you from getting rich, it’ll just get you there more slowly. So it does in fact, have everything to do with this blog!
Also, you must not know any rich people. All the ones I know give like mad. I can always count on them when I’m having a fundraiser.
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This discussion is so interesting, I am still reading the comments today. One of the issues that I think that is being overlooked is why this woman would feel compelled to lose the home so that she could pay her tithes. I’d like to know more about the church and what it teaches. I am thinking that the church is as guilty as the predatory lenders.
God has never engaged in “spiritual blackmail” or extortion. Yet, sometimes we have heard proponents of tithing engage in such actions in the name of God. For example, I have heard a minister equate someone’s misfortune with the fact that the individual was not tithing. Much like the New Age Movement, we hear ministers now spouting words tied to giving such as “favor” “prosperity” “faith seed” and the like. Of course, we also are repeatedly warned about the curses that will fall upon us if we do not give. While I do believe that God does show favor, it is not tied to how much money one gives at offering time. Indeed, the blessings and curses that God warned the Israelites about in the Old Testament referred to their ability to keep all of the Mosaic law, not just with respect to the issue of tithing. (See eg. Deuteronomy Chapters 27 and 28). Furthermore, it referred to blessings and curses on the entire nation and not individual blessings and curses. Still further as stated in my comment above, under the New Covenant, the shedding of the Blood of Jesus freed us from all such curses and gave us the power and authority to be free from Satan’s harm.
We have also heard proponents of tithing tell us that we should be glad to give God a mere 10% of our income because He has given us the other 90% for our use and that He is the owner of everything or that we should pay our tithe before we pay our mortgage, rent, electricity or other bills? Whenever I hear statements such as these, I wonder what these individuals have read in the Bible that would lead to make them make such statements in the name of God. None of these statements are supported by examining the mandatory tithing system under Mosaic Law or even the voluntary tithes offered by Abraham or Jacob. For example, remember in Deuteronomy 14:22-29, the Israelites personally consumed the festival tithe and rejoiced before the Lord giving Him thanks. Also, remember that Jacob conditioned the giving of his tithe on God doing something for him first. (Genesis 28:20-22). Furthermore, as stated above, how does giving to the church equate to “giving to God” or being a good steward whereas giving money to take care of one’s family, the poor, the fatherless, or other charities (following in line with the third tithe under Mosaic law) somehow not equate to “giving to God” or being a good steward?
I really think the bottom line is that people should be guided by the Holy Spirit on what they should do in terms of their giving and their finances and not by traditions of men.
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another mormon here. To the ex mormon, I actually think that it has less to do with paying a tithe than choosing to only have normally the father work. That is a much harder on the finances thing to accomplish. Really tithing is not going to keep one from losing there home. If all they had to come up with is a few hundred dollars a month they would do it. I’ve lived in 5 wards (kind of church units) and I’ve seen 2 that have lost there home that were active members. One was due to long time unemployment (and I doubt they were tithe payers either) and the other to huge medical debt.
What my mormon generation (early 30′s) are finding now is that to even be able to afford a home, nothing elaborate that they are needing to bring in some kind of extra income to pull it off.
If Utah wants to improve there bankruptcy standing, then there legistlators need to figure out how to fix the medicaid system. As a parent of a disabled child, they have one of the worst systems in the country. We had to ask to have our church help us pay our rent for several months because what we were paying out in medical bills, was more than we were taking in, in income. You will find big medical debt as a huge part of this forclosure crisis. People will choose to keep there kids/spouse alive, before they pay there mortgage.
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As a few others have posted, specifically Derek @104, giving money to the church is about priorities. As a Christian, I have found that attempting to discuss this topic with non-Christians is often difficult because we don’t have the same belief system (i.e. Canadian Kevin). We end up having to agree to disagree…
My goal is NOT to get rich, whether slowly or by any other means… My goal is to do as God would have me do with my life (which currently has me teaching in a small Christian school – not exactly a road paved with gold).
Would it be nice to be rich? Maybe. Rockefeller said (and I know I’m paraphrasing, here) that the management of each of a million dollars was enough stress to kill a man. As JD said, X is always a moving target – (I know it wasn’t in reference to what I’m about to say, but I think it still holds true) if your goal is to get rich in order to be happy, how do you know when you’ve arrived? As previously quoted, Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven… that’s because the rich man has so many material possessions that he has to prioritize as being less important than his relationship with God.
On the other hand, learning to be content with what you already have will open up huge realms of freedom…. which is why my priorities include giving to my church. I believe that God has blessed me by giving me everything that I have (financially and otherwise), and I show my gratitude to and trust in Him by tithing… even when times are tough.
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@KiminLosAngeles: You said to email you, but I have no way of looking up your email address. You say there is no biblical support for tithing, and that Abraham and Jacob tithed voluntarily. Well, if by “voluntary” you mean they chose to obey God, then yes, they chose to obey God. No, it isn’t blackmail, but to deny that God does reward obedience (whether in this life or in the next) above and beyond the gift of eternal life is to deny 1Co 3:9-15.
As far as whether a tithe is expected from Christians today, I suggest you read http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AT/AT.pdf.
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God wants us to give out of what we have, not out of what we don’t have.
“For if there is a ready mind, a man will have God’s approval in the measure of what he has, and not of what he has not.” 2 Cor. 8:12
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Man, the site ate my first comment!
Anyway — JD, if you want to start donating, you might call a women’s shelter or soup kitchen. They’d probably be thrilled to get some of the proceeds from your garden. If you contact the shelter, ask what else they need. Things like diapers, feminine health products and toiletries are generally in short supply. For these things, try Amazon: they have the bulk size and you can get free shipping and no tax on the items.
Even if you only do it once, and aren’t making a monthly habit, it’s still really valuable and can make a big difference.
Actually, when you’re thinking of next year’s garden, maybe set aside a little space for a charity plot?
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I am LDS (mormon) too like several here. Tithing is very important to me. It helps me keep a perspective on money. The Bible teaches against being lovers of money and worldly posessions. Tithing is a small sacrifice to help me manage my wants and desires. Like the baptist lady in the post if I can’t afford something after paying tithing then I don’t need that. I served my mission in Ecuador where people who earned less than $200/month would faithfully pay tithing and they were still able to provide food and shelter for their family.
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It’s sad to me that these churches haven’t made clear that “the community helps the church” also goes the other way. Even if churchgoers are so strict that they won’t give up the cash donation, parishoners could try to help with bake sales, free babysitting, etc., if they knew a fellow member was in need.
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@Canadian Kevin–I didn’t think JD’s definition of “rich” necessarily meant “a stockpile of money.”
Sure, I could live my life with only my interests in mind, but I doubt that would make me feel rich. I care about the society in which I live, and I’d like for some of my money to support the changes I’d like to see.
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All,
Just a short story from my life. A little less then 4 years ago, my wife was in a car accident that left her partially disabled. Naturally, her paycheck took a MAJOR hit (it stopped for a while!). At the same time, my consistent overtime ($400 bring home a payday) stopped. There we were, $1600/month less then before, and still paying on a totalled car! I decided (with my wife’s agreement) to cut our expenses to the bone, but we still continued to give the same amount of tithe. We survived for months, as her income gradually rose, with out living on credit cards, or any outside money assistance.
The moral of the story: 1 1/2 years after the accident, a new job was advertised with the company I work for, with a $6.00/hr raise over what I was making before. While some may ridicule me, I know the Lord spoke to my heart and told me that job was my reward for being faithfull during the lean times after my wife’s accident. Since I accepted this job, my income has risen another $2.00/hr. I am very thankful and continue to faithfully tithe!
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You have got to be kidding…
All,
Just a short story from my life. A little less then 4 years ago, my wife was in a car accident that left her partially disabled. Naturally, her paycheck took a MAJOR hit (it stopped for a while!). At the same time, my consistent overtime ($400 bring home a payday) stopped. There we were, $1600/month less then before, and still paying on a totalled car! I decided (with my wife’s agreement) to cut our expenses to the bone, but we still continued to give the same amount of tithe. We survived for months, as her income gradually rose, with out living on credit cards, or any outside money assistance.
The moral of the story: 1 1/2 years after the accident, a new job was advertised with the company I work for, with a $6.00/hr raise over what I was making before. While some may ridicule me, I know the Lord spoke to my heart and told me that job was my reward for being faithfull during the lean times after my wife’s accident. Since I accepted this job, my income has risen another $2.00/hr. I am very thankful and continue to faithfully tithe!
Excuse me, but how can you say something like this? I wonder how all of those who were injured in accidents (where was the “Lord” there btw?) and whose spouse didn’t get a pay raise in the end feel about these type of comments. But hey, it worked out for you guys! Incredible.
Look, I’m sure you mean well, but think about what you’re saying. A divine entity interfered on your behalf because you gave some money to a church? Get real. You guys made the necessary changes, cut back, and new position happened to open up. Congratulations and have some pride in yourselves; it was you and your responsible wife who made this happen, not some fantasy being.
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My husband and I are in the midst of a situation like Allen’s (comment 131). My husband has been out of job since January so our income got cut by more than 2/3. We have cut back our spending to the bare bones, are committed to not going into debt and continue to tithe. I would sell our house and rent an apartment to continue to tithe. We give to God and to poverty-relief efforts not out of compulsion but because we’re grateful for what God has done for us and given to us. We have been blessed so that we can bless others. Even in leaner times, we are still very aware of the fact that we are more wealthy than nearly everyone else in the world just because we live in the States. Even with a much-reduced income, we are committed to giving, to staying out of debt and to trusting God to lead us. We don’t know what the future holds, but are confident that we are making the right choice by continuing to give.
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It’s unbelievable to me how many people “trust in God” to lead them all the way to bankruptcy.
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It’s about priorities, regardless of your religious beliefs, isn’t it? I’m an athiest, but I do choose to give a percentage of my income away to causes that are important to me. At the same time, I’ve chosen to live in a small house with a small payment, so that I can afford to give. It’s also a priority to me to keep my children in high quality daycare while I work, which I see as no different than my charitable giving, or tithing. If something is important to you, and you know how to correctly budget your money, your choices should be in harmony and there will be no question of whether you can afford to tithe, if that’s your highest priority. It is the incorrect prioritization that gets us into trouble. You must sometimes choose between a big house, a fancy car or a nice vacation every year, tithing, or quality education (or healthcare). That’s where we can set ourselves a trap.
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@Kevin
Folks that I know who trust in God and follow the money principles in the Bible usually dont go into bankruptcy. Like the USA today article the lil old lady cosigned on a daughters loan. IF one would read the Bible there are warnings not. Principles in the Bible to live on less than what you earn, save, stay out of debt give etc. The USA Today article had no facts to it.
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One great question to ask: Why is USA today pointing out those who tithe whose houses are entering foreclosure when it is absolutely clear that the vast majority of those who houses are being foreclosed on do not?
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March Hare and Damsel–PLEASE PLEASE email me for a copy of my article. I really want to share my article with you–even if we end up agreeing to disagree.
You can click on my name and you will automatically be directed to my myspace page where you can read my article or I would prefer to send it to you directly (with footnotes and all) if you email me at kmtesq@aol.com. I have this information listed in an earlier post.
I want to clarify that I do believe in giving. In fact, my charitable giving is literally 20-30% of my total income–In the last three years for example, I have purchased three vehicles for people who needed transporation; I have paid the monthly rent for 2 years for two individuals; I let a homeless woman who I did not know and her child (who I did know) live with me for three months until the mom was back on her feet and then I put the downpayment on her apartment and bought her living room and bedroom furniture; I have bought 6 to 7 mattress sets for individuals with out beds and I have given over $100,000 in five years to people in need. In fact, I have been told that I have a problem of giving too much which has caused me to go into debt (which is another issue altogether). The only reason I give these examples is that people think that because I am opposed to tithing, I am opposed to giving. This is not the case.
I am opposed to tithing because it is false doctrine and has no Biblical (New Testament) support. I am opposed to the teaching of any false doctrine because I think it is dangerous and it opens the door for any false doctrine to be taught in church. The Macedonians (in Acts) gave up all that they had so that those that were without could have food and shelter. I commend those who have a giving heart. In fact, I think the churches would raise more money if they taught their congregants to be Givers under the New Covenant than tithers under the Old Covenant.
I commend those who are Givers—but because there is NO BIBLICAL basis for Christians to tithe (as taught by the church today), I am opposed to it.
Again, I would love to share my article. I spent several years writing it–it is about 15 pages. Please have your Bible by your side because it is all Bibically based. I would love your response as well. My article is entitled “Am I A Thief? A Christian Perspective of Whether Tithing is Required By Christians.”
This has been a very interesting and enlightening discussion. I hope it continues for several more days.
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All,
To continue the story in my earlier post (#131), One year after my wife’s car accident, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. After multiple surgeries, chemotherapy, etc… she is doing fine now, cancer free. I bring it up because one payday after her sick leave ran out, again loosing her pay, my new job with the $6.00/hr raise kicked in. Some would say “WOW, what a coincidence!” I say thank you God!
Harold (Post #132) I think most of the problem people have with a ‘divine entity’ is they are trying to use a limited, finite mind to attempt to understand an unlimited, infinite one.
As for your question about where was the Lord when the accident happened, well bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. The way the Bible says it is ‘it rains on the just and the unjust.’ Bad times are going to happen, and the true test of our character is not whether we have the bad times, but how we handle them when they come.
Carolyn (Post #133),
HANG IN THERE!!!! Don’t forget the wisdom most of us learned at our grandmother’s knee, like ‘This too shall pass!’ It’s always darkest before the dawn, etc… I will remember you (and your husband) in my prayers.
P.S. I could give many examples of times God has helped us, sometimes using my church. In 2003, some relatives had a terrible car accident here in my hometown and spent 4 months recovering in my home, just to be well enough to travel back to their home across the country. During this time, our church brought us 3 complete meals every week, for 5 people, for four solid months!!! WHAT A BLESSING THAT WAS FOR US!!!
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The tithe is intended to be a sacrifice and causes the person giving to live within their means. Faith based on not we are wealthy beyond most in the world and should give to what ever cause is in need.
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All,
To continue the story in my earlier post (#131), One year after my wife’s car accident, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. After multiple surgeries, chemotherapy, etc… she is doing fine now, cancer free. I bring it up because one payday after her sick leave ran out, again loosing her pay, my new job with the $6.00/hr raise kicked in. Some would say “WOW, what a coincidence!” I say thank you God!
Shame on you. 50 years ago I wonder if she would have survived if it were not for the oncologists and other medical professionals. Thank them, not some mystical being.
Harold (Post #132) I think most of the problem people have with a ‘divine entity’ is they are trying to use a limited, finite mind to attempt to understand an unlimited, infinite one.
That’s exactly what you’re doing. You declare the existince of an infinite mind whose existence has yet to be demonstrated. Then you claim to understand, whether through personal revelation or “revealed texts”, the mind of this being. But how can you know that this entity (if it exists) “speaks” to you through the Bible and not some other book, if any? You can’t. And remember, the burden of proof rests with those who make these types of claims.
…As for your question about where was the Lord when the accident happened, well bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people.
That’s right, sometimes things just happen. Whimsically developing an external agency to explain it doesn’t contribute anything.
P.S. I could give many examples of times God has helped us, sometimes using my church. In 2003, some relatives had a terrible car accident here in my hometown and spent 4 months recovering in my home, just to be well enough to travel back to their home across the country. During this time, our church brought us 3 complete meals every week, for 5 people, for four solid months!!! WHAT A BLESSING THAT WAS FOR US!!!
This is very insular thinking. So, if a good thing happens (after a very bad thing) it’s the Lord helping you through these people? But of course it’s not responsible for the bad stuff. How convenient. All I ask is that you try and have a little more perspective here.
Take care
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Harold, no one can prove scientifically or factually that a higher power (or powers, in the case of some religions) exists. If we could, then it would be easy for everyone to believe, wouldn’t it? It’s called “faith” for a reason. Yes, I agree that some people take it too far, but the same can be said about any set of beliefs (including democracy and consumerism).
There is nothing “whimsical” about what I believe, nor do I attribute things to some “fantasy being” or “an external agency” as a way to not take responsibility for my actions or the actions of others. I’m surprised that you insult people, and then actually expect them to seriously consider your ideas.
I’m a little weary of the “I’m right and you’re uneducated/unenlightened attitude” that both non-believers and believers seem to exhibit. It’s a shame some people can’t discuss ideas without resorting to superiority complexes and insults.
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I’ll respond to this before I leave for work.
Harold, no one can prove scientifically or factually that a higher power (or powers, in the case of some religions) exists. If we could, then it would be easy for everyone to believe, wouldn’t it? It’s called “faith” for a reason. Yes, I agree that some people take it too far, but the same can be said about any set of beliefs (including democracy and consumerism).
Yes it called faith, or credulity. The willingness to accept something as important as the creation of the universe or the existence of a “supreme being” without evidence is irrational and irresponsible.
There is nothing “whimsical” about what I believe, nor do I attribute things to some “fantasy being” or “an external agency” as a way to not take responsibility for my actions or the actions of others. I’m surprised that you insult people, and then actually expect them to seriously consider your ideas.
You might not, be he does, and I took care to assume that he probably meant well but should have some more perspective. I acknowledged his responsible actions in saving and moving through his episode with his wife’s troubles.
I’m a little weary of the “I’m right and you’re uneducated/unenlightened attitude” that both non-believers and believers seem to exhibit. It’s a shame some people can’t discuss ideas without resorting to superiority complexes and insults.
Lol be weary all you want. I am discussing ideas, and I don’t or ever have claimed to know everything. But what he was saying is ridiculous, and I explained why. I don’t see why people want to hide behind this type of “Oh, I’m being condescended to” attitude when legitimate critisms are directed their way. Generally speaking, if we’re not ready to handle reasonable responses (and the same applies to me of course) then don’t get involved.
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@Harold: Well, I guess that sooner or later this thread would devolve into a discussion about whether or not the universe was created. I know I won’t be able to convince you, as there are many others in the world who have written rather excellent books on intelligent design who are more erudite than I. Frankly, if I were to gamble upon it (and we all are to one degree or another), I’d say the odd are on the side of intelligent design.
Furthermore, archaeology has shown that many of the prophecies of the Bible have come true. In fact, there are over 200 prophecies that Jesus alone fulfilled. If that won’t convince you, nothing will. Even Jesus Himself was not believed by most who saw Him, and He Himself proclaimed that if the Jewish religious authorities did not believe what was written about Him in the Law of Moses, then they would not believe even One Who returned from the dead!
However, if you truly are interested in legitimate debate, why not tone down the charges of “irresponsible” and “irrational”?
Also, even the Bible shows that righteous individuals often suffer. The Book of Job isn’t unknown to you, surely.
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ENOUGH!!!
This thread is beginning to degenerate into exactly what I did not want — an argument about religion. If you want to argue the merits of faith, do it elsewhere. There are thousands (millions?) of such threads on the internet, and each is as pointless as the last.
I am an atheist, but I’m not about to get into a religious debate at Get Rich Slowly. For one, it serves no purpose. For another, I believe the viewpoints of religious folk are just as valid as my own. I do my best to keep GRS politically and religiously neutral. Just because I don’t believe in a god doesn’t mean that other people have to believe like I do. And since other people do have religious sentiment and make their decisions based on this, it’s an important subject that needs to be addressed.
Please refrain from arguing the merits of religion in this thread. Further such comments will be summarily deleted. I’m not joking. Keep discussion to the matter at hand.
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Thank you J.D.
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I think this is a very valid discussion, but a fact that I see missing is what charity really is. Charity really means LOVE, not obligation. Even those of you who are atheist still admire the truth of 1 Corinthians 13 which is simply saying that giving up everything I have is worthless, unless I really love the person I am giving to. To me, that is the challenge of giving. Am I giving out of obligation, peer pressure or fear? Then I am getting no personal benefit. So in answer to the original post, you need to love someone else more than yourself to give up everything for them.
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Thank you J.D. for bringing the discussion back on topic. It’s hard not to respond to criticisms about what you believe because it’s something so personal, but that’s not the goal here. I’m glad you have the integrity to not keep a heated debate going for the sake of web traffic.
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@Ed M: I think you (and some others) make an important point that love is the over-arching principle in giving (for a Christian, at any rate; I cannot speak for others). God certainly looks upon the heart.
May I question something, though? If my wife’s birthday comes up, do I have an obligation to get her a gift? If I do have an obligation to get her a gift, does that mean I don’t love her? If I love her, then do I still have an obligation to buy her a gift? I hope you can see through this admittedly lame example that love and obligation do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Furthermore, if we are to love God and put Him first, then shouldn’t we also put Him first in our budget?
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March Hare
Good point,
If you feel obligated to buy something for your wife, then do you also feel obligated to love her? If you love her without ever showing it in some way, is it LOVE? I believe love is an action and will be expressed in some way.Is love an obligation or a debt? I know why I want to show love to others but I can’t judge why others feel that same need
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