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What happens when you take control of your finances, but the other people in your life continue to struggle? I’ve heard this question from two people lately. During the Q&A of my talk at the library last Saturday, one audience member asked:
You mentioned during your presentation that you had two friends give you books [when you were having financial trouble]. Is that how you recommend approaching the discussion to friends and families who need that kind of advice?
Coincidentally, Jenni wrote this week with a similar dilemma:
I’m so excited about getting control over my money, and when I talk to my family and friends, they are also very happy for me. But, as I talked to my mother and my boyfriend, I’ve suggested changes I’ve read about that they each can make. The result is they get angry, defensive, or hurt.
I’m not criticizing what they’ve done so far — just offering suggestions for what they can do now and in the future. But it touches on a sore spot. Should I just leave them alone, and only talk about my own finances? Do you have suggestions for how to talk with your loved ones about money?
Making positive changes to your financial life gives you a sense of power and control. When you’re in debt, when you spend compulsively, it feels like there’s nothing you can do stop. But as you gradually change your attitudes and behaviors, you eventually reach a point where you realize that you are in control. That moment is liberating. Like any new believer, you want to share what you’ve learned. That’s a good thing. But you need to be careful.
Sometimes when you try to share your new-found wisdom with others, they’re not as excited as you might think. Each person is in a different place. Though you may have friends and family members who could profit from what you’ve learned, if they’re not ready to listen, you run the risk of doing more harm than good when you offer advice.
Here are three subtle ways you can help those who are still struggling:
- Lead by example. Suggest cutting back on the family gift exchange this year. When you go out to dinner with your partner, choose cheaper alternatives. Start walking to the grocery store instead of driving. Bring home books and CDs and DVDs from the library. Don’t make a big deal out of things — just do them. Rather than goad your friends and family into saving, be an example of what can happen through smart money choices.
- Be willing to answer questions. When I was struggling with debt and poor choices, I could see that certain people in my life (such as my wife) had their finances under control. Sometimes I would ask questions. I asked my cousin about mutual funds, and he explained them to me. For a time, I even put money into them. (Then I pulled it out to buy a computer.) Be available as a resource.
- Use the soft sell. When my friend Michael listened to my complaints about money in 2003, he didn’t make a big deal out of it. He told me his financial story, and then mentioned a book he liked called Your Money or Your Life. He didn’t lecture. He didn’t try to convert me. He simply spent a few minutes explaining how he’d solved his problems, and then he let it go. A few days later, a copy of Your Money or Your Life appeared in my mailbox, and I knew it was from him. That was enough.
From personal experience, I believe that books can be a great, gentle tool to introduce the ideas of financial responsibility. Last year, I created a list of personal-finance books that make great gifts. If you can find a way to incorporate one of these (or a personal-finance magazine) naturally into your giving, it may have greater impact than simply bringing up subjects in conversation. But be careful! If done incorrectly, this can be taken as a preachy gift. Nobody likes a preachy gift.
I’m curious how other Get Rich Slowly readers have handled this kind of situation. How do you encourage your family and friends to make smart choices with money without making them defensive or angry? What mistakes have you made in the past? What techniques have you found that work? Does a person have to hit rock bottom before they’re ready to listen?


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November 21st, 2008 at 5:24 am
One comment I would make if you plan on giving a PF book to someone is to consider long and hard if you plan on gifting it on Christmas or for a birthday or when there is an expectation of receiving a gift. I would think, much like JD’s example, book in the mail or dropped off as a “thinking of what we talked about”, leads to less pressure and no real judgement of the gift receivers actions. Getting something like this as a gift is likely to make the person receiving it feel the person giving it is judging that they’ve screwed up and need help. Sometimes people do need the wake up call, but most times they just lash out and hit the snooze.
November 21st, 2008 at 5:28 am
I think it’s best to leave others to do their own thing in life, however much you may think that you know best how they should live their life. There’s a saying that goes “unsolicited advice says more about the giver than the recipient” - of course Jenni’s relatives don’t like it when she gives them unasked for advice. Their finances are for them to sort out, not her. Leading by example may be the best way for her, if she does want to make a difference to those around her.
November 21st, 2008 at 5:28 am
Sometimes there is no getting through to others. Trying to talk to people, especially about finances can be the same as talking to them about their weight, smoking, or even drugs. Many people do not feel that they need to change their habits until something happens to force them into realizing that something needs to be done. Not everyone is going to put the same emphasis on getting their financial lives in order as you do, and therefore you cannot make it your mission to change them, or you risk coming off as controlling or condescending which may strain the relationship, specifically with a parent who is much less prone to accept advice from a child. The best thing is to make a concerted effort, and if it doesn’t work, then drop it since they are adults and have to take responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof).
November 21st, 2008 at 5:34 am
I don’t offer my opinion to friends and family unless it’s asked.
I direct my financial opinions to my blog.
But I agree with Martin, I wouldn’t give PF books to my family for Christmas or their birthday unless they were looking for a PF book, otherwise it would be interpreted as a judgement.
November 21st, 2008 at 5:59 am
Great topic. I’ve struggled in the past with this. One of the best techniques I’ve learned is to cultivate no drama around money. Calm is beautiful. I actually have a short article on this topic I’m happy to share: http://www.diamondcutlife.org/how-to-talk-about-money/
November 21st, 2008 at 6:12 am
I agree with you on the soft sell. It can be difficult sometimes when you “know” the reasons that people are having problems, but it seems to always be best for the relationship in the long run.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:13 am
People have to be in a certain place in their lives to “hear” the message about money/frugality. Everyone comes to that on their own terms, and in their own time. We can plant small “seeds” in our conversations with others here and there. Through time, the “seeds” we plant will hopefully grow and bring about change in the lives of others… but this takes patience.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:25 am
I like those three steps, JD. Leading by example is the first, and probably most important of the three. If we’re not willing to walk the talk first, then who are we to open our mouths to anyone?
I also like what Eric said - people need to come to the realization themselves. Us, Americans, don’t like to be preached to. We’re a self-sufficient lot. But if we’re humbled through circumstances or bad decisions, we’re much more open to receive counsel. At that time, the soft sell becomes much more effective.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:28 am
“Happy for you” is not the same as “wanting advice from you”. If they didn’t specifically and explicitly ask you what to do in their own financial lives, then … yeah, actually, what you did was insulting. It wasn’t intended to be, but it was, nonetheless. Advice is hard enough to take, sometimes, even when it HAS been solicited. If someone expresses interest in learning more about personal finances, a book dropped off as no big deal, in a casual way, is thoughtful. If someone has NOT expressed that kind of interest, and a book such as that is given at Christmas or for a birthday, it is an implicit criticism of someone else’s judgment. Therein lies the difference.
I’d be interested to hear how it applies in a partnership - a marriage where the finances are combined, or the equivalent relationship, where one party’s financial decisions DO affect the other party. What’s the best way to handle THOSE discussions? I didn’t get the impression that Jenni and her boyfriend had interdependent finances - at least, not beyond the “I bought five books this week and can’t take you out to dinner this weekend” variety - not the “I bought five books this week and now I can’t pay my part of the electric bill - I’ll pay you back next month!” variety. What’s the best way to have THAT discussion? (One example about which I bite my tongue - a girl I know agreed to sell an older, valuable, in-good-condition car that belonged to her, to her boyfriend, when he pressed her. He hadn’t quite gotten around to paying her for it when he wrecked it, they now live together, and he will never reimburse her for the car he’s wrecked - and I bite my tongue, but it’s not right.)
November 21st, 2008 at 6:35 am
Finances, particularly financial troubles, can be a very touchy subject.
I’ve always found the best approach is to say something along the lines of “I’ve had some experience with that, would you like some advice or are you happy to deal with it yourself?”.
This gives them an easy out - “No thanks, I’m happy to deal with it myself” and isn’t patronising.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:38 am
My best friend and I talk about money often. We have similar financial circumstances and we are both interested in personal finance so we do talk about it.
I’m also quite open with my parents, who are comfortable, but by no means wealthy. I am their health and financial power of attorney should something happen so I try to talk to them often about their finances and situation. They are pretty open with me mainly because my father was executor of his uncle’s will and when he died suddenly it was a huge mess that dragged on for years mainly cause my father and uncle never talked about any of it.
However, my husband never talks to his parents about money, his parents are pretty wealthy. Personally, I think I have a much better idea of their circumstances just through the casual conversations I’ve had with his mother. She’s told me their income tax bracket and things like that so I know the range of their annual income, plus she told me about what she inherited from her parents, etc. But I still couldn’t put a real close dollar figure to their worth. And my husband doesn’t have a clue, he didn’t even know the things his mother told me, was actually quite surprised at their income level. That’s a bit sad considering he may be forced to help them should they be unable to make decisions for themselves in the future.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:44 am
So like others I recently started reading this blog and getting control over my finances. When I got excited about it, I just wrote emails to a couple of people I knew could use financial help and told them I’d discovered a cool new blog and directed them here. I think the blog is an easier way in than a book, sometimes. You can poke around in it whenever you’re on the internet and it’s not quite as intimidating. Plus it has a catchy name.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:47 am
When I’ve “offered friendly advice” to loved ones, it never falls on happy ears. I’m learning to shut up.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:48 am
What I’ve done is share with close friends and family (my family all have good financial habits) what we’re doing and why (paid off all non-mortgage debt in 2007, saved almost $50,000 in 2008) and for those that show interest I’ve shared more details and I have given Dave Ramsey’s book to my best friend and she is working the TMM. I’ve also given out some advice to my closest friends.
With other friends (those that I’m not as close with) I also mention what we are doing in more general terms. When asked when I was going to finally get a new car (I was driving a 1999 paid for car while all my work friends drive luxury cars that they lease) I would share that I was saving up cash to pay for a new car. When I finally bought my nused car in September of this year they all cheered for me. But some times those habits rub off and some times they don’t, shortly after I bought my car one of my good friends went out and leased (again) another luxury car and she is paying $600 a month for her lease. This is a friend who is still paying of professional school loans too. I didn’t say anything negative about the lease or her new car but in my head I was upset with her. so, I share what I’m doing and I share my milestones like paying off Mr. Sam’s MBA student loans and our other debts and paying cash for the car and our upcoming Thanksgiving vacation but I don’t get “preachy” with them.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:53 am
When I read this question I went in a different direction. I thought of my children, all boys. I have talked to my oldest son about money and the uses etc. I did not use any personal finance books. What I did use was his Personal Management Merit Badge book from the Boy Scouts. You do not have to be in scouts to read it. It does have a series of requirements which would be good for just about anyone to do. I sat down and redid it after 20 years just to see what I do differently now than when I was in Boy Scouts.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:06 am
My parents did a good job of being open with finances teaching us to be financially responsible from a young age. This atmosphere of openness allows us to be pretty frank about financial issues, though their imparted wisdom means there aren’t many “down” financial issues, just “how to be even better”. It’s certainly not very helpful for those wanting to start from zero, but for raising your children, it’s a good lesson that kids do learn what you teach them.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:06 am
I have had success with my children using the steps you outlined. Lead by example, sometimes talking about some financial move you made and why you made it. Then share educational info about personal finance by sending links to articles etc. Low key works best.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:18 am
My wife and I talk about finances all the time. We don’t discuss it with family because they have different values … like spending! And not saving! We have learned to keep it to ourselves because we know we’re doing it the right way.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:24 am
@La BellaDonna
We’ve actually talked about the specific “how to talk to my spouse about money” subset of this question a couple of times in the past. That’s even trickier!
November 21st, 2008 at 7:28 am
JD-Great post!
I try not to talk about money. Unless they ask me directly I don’t give advice. Everyone who knows me well knows that I’m pretty sharp in the personal finance arena. They see it because of the example we set and how we talk. They know I was a command financial specialist when I was in the navy. They know about our blog and its topics. In other words, they know I am there for them if they need it.
If they do ask for advice I confirm they really want advice. Often someone wants to vent or to get you to validate a decision they want to make. If advice is what they need I’m blunt but caring. Note: I have an advantage. I was a command financial specialist while in the navy. One of my jobs was to counsel people in severe financial straits.
Another thing I find is that they are wanting you to offer them a loan. The conversation (or asking your advice) is their way to ease into asking you for money. If this happens you need to be careful. It really can be a no win situation unless you are prepared and are careful. I wrote an article How to Respond When Your Family Asks for Money to address this situation.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:30 am
I think that my fiscally responsible boyfriend was successful in using the soft sell by introducing me to Get Rich Slowly. I read JD’s blog everyday and am open to talking about money. I am now in control of my personal finances whereas before I would often bury my head in the sand.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:33 am
I work in banking so when I talk about investing or debt management friends/family tend to listen to what I’m saying. What they do with that advice afterwards is up to them. However, I also make a point not to intrude on their business. If they want my advice they know they can ask. I think a book is a great idea, either by following up on a conversation or as a gift for a birthday or Christmas.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:55 am
simple answer: I don’t.
Many years ago, when I lived at home, my mother was struggling with finances, so I tried to share with her some of the tools I use manage my spending. I set her up on Quicken, and while she was diligent about enter transactions, she never really got the power of the tool to help you know where you are spending too much and how you can save money. She has had financial ups and downs since then, and I find it is more peaceful if I don’t offer my opinion.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:04 am
Although not the conventional method, I offer to directly help them with their finances. First, I start with their retirement savings. I analyze their portfolio for them, explain what it means (i.e. point out the balance of large cap vs. mid cap vs. small cap, domestic vs. international, stock vs. bond), and commend them for saving, period. I work with them to determine their own personal assett allocation, and help them move their money around to make it happen (i.e. rolling over old 401ks into Vanguard IRAs, etc) I like to drop in the fact that the average 50 year old American has 50k or less saved for retirement, and tell them how great (or average) they are doing in comparison. This gets them empowered and they want more. I then explain the value of the high-yield savings account (or another PF byte) and tell them how much they are effectively paying their bank annually for the privilege of keeping it at the same brick and mortar institution versus an online bank (i.e. 0% vs. 3% annually). Anyway, each bit is delivered in a light that makes them want to ask me the next question, whether it be about life insurance, frugality, debt reduction, or whatever. I try and empower them and commend them for the steps they are doing right, while making my own personal finances an open book.
Lastly, I bait them with the promise of 10$ if they let me help them with their personal finances. It’s my own crusade and I’ll only do it for people I care about, so it’s well worth the money. Using this method, I have helped do a PF makeover (or some portion therein) for 3 co-workers, my parents, and 4 friends and couples.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:08 am
My wife and I are very open about our finances. We have our own separate accounts, and a joint account to pay bills. We have found this really works well for us, and helped us to avoid arguments over money.
-Dan Malone-
November 21st, 2008 at 8:29 am
I like the 3rd point with soft sell. That reminds myself when i approached this kind of situation about the money, a sensitive matter for many people. I like to be direct and in the same time diplomatic.But I don’t like to do it in public to show off that i know best about the solutions.
A did send to many friends of mine ebooks and training packages to know about the financial freedom. I had many good responses and bad, but the point is to do it anyway, because you never know for who it works. Of course there will unpleasant discussions, but that also makes you stronger and you are getting to know the human psychology, which for examples will guide you how to approach people when you are a sale person. You can always get something from any situations.
I think we need to find the right time and place when we need to come with advice of such matter. To do it with charm, respect to others and compassion. To shut up sometimes it’s worse.
I would definitely recommend Get Rich Slowly blog.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:34 am
J.D., thanks for the link! I went, I read, I commented.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:36 am
Money is a very touchy subject in my family. My parents split up because they were living beyond their means, and my mother decided to find someone with better means.
The only thing I’ve learned is to not enable them, and it isn’t your fault if they fail massively.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:37 am
heh. i’ve got the exact opposite problem. people keep pestering me for help with their personal finances, just because i’m a CPA. I have to keep telling them i work with corporations and partnerships, not personal finance.
if you become a cfp, cfa, cpa, etc… people will approach you for advice.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:57 am
I think for me, leading by example is the best way. I don’t know much about the technical aspects of finance but I can show others what I do and then point them to resources that can give them more information than I can (like this blog).
November 21st, 2008 at 8:59 am
The approach all depends on the person. For the most part I think it is everyone’s right as an adult to make stupid decisions so I keep my mouth shut unless someone asks.
However I have a different perspective with my parents and mother in law. I don’t offer much unsolicited advice but I am pretty insistent about knowing what they are doing with their money because, should anything happen, I will probably be the one having to track down information and such.
In fact I have had the opposite problem a couple times with my family: they want advice and I am unwilling to give it. This is because I don’t want to be responsible for their decisions. So instead I lay out the options and might say what my decision would be in a simiar case while qualifying everything with statements about my different situation and personal financial style.
On a personal note I am pretty financially savvy and my mom has been driving me crazy as I reorganize some things with comments like “That’s what I suggested a couple months ago.” and “You weren’t receptive to that idea when I brought it up.” Giving advice is like giving a gift. You can’t be insulted if people return it, or abuse it, or put it in a closet and ignore it. Don’t just be gracious when you offer it, but you must also be gracious after. Even if someone is receptive they don’t want you calling up asking if they took your advice.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:24 am
OMG, J.D., I’m going back to your “How can I get my wife to talk about money” entry, and add one more comment. Since I don’t know how to link stuff, I’m begging you, follow me there. Thanks!
November 21st, 2008 at 9:29 am
Like skipadoo said, having a professional designation related to finance (e.g. the CFP® Certification) can invite friends and family to ask personal finance questions. Arguably, it opens the door to communication on managing finances.
It can be difficult avoiding judgmental statements (”you don’t have credit card debt, do you?”). I’ve learned many tactful ways to ask questions and provide choices from my family members.
Providing choices and information on personal finances has been the most successful way I’ve engaged with friends and family.
Empower them with information and options, but let them take the reins and take control.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:31 am
I love giving books of series to my younger family members. I’ll give them the first book of a series of books (like Rich Dad, Poor Dad), and as the years tick away I’ll add the next book of the series. I think that Martin brought up a good point, that I hadn’t really picked up on over the years: that, these books, despite my best intentions, end up on shelves unused. It might be better to give them when there isn’t an anticipation for a “gift”.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am
Advice only -works- if it’s asked for. After 20+ years of resisting strongly our dad’s budgeting advice, my self-employed sister asked me to help her figure out how many clients she needed to see in order to meet her monthly expenses. When I told her she needed to figure how much she spent each month in order to know how many clients she needed to see to meet those expenses, the resistance melted away. She needed to get the information for a purpose she could see rather than for the (really good, sensible) reasons Dad had given her.
I also try to give a proportional response to casual comments about finance. I’ve had co-workers say things like, “I don’t know how you manage to save for a car!” Rather than modestly taking a compliment and ignoring the sentiment, I respond with, “I have part of my paycheck direct deposited into a savings account at a different bank than my checking. This works great for me because I never miss the money.” Then I change the subject unless they ask follow up questions. I’ve shared information but I’m not telling them how to live their lives.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:46 am
Great article!
I think leading by example and sharing your triumphs with your family is a great way. My husband and I are in a much better place income wise than we were a few years ago, but still struggling on getting debt under control, etc. However, we followed through on some short term debt reduction and credit score improvement goals, so that we were finally in a position to purchase a home earlier this year. That was a major goal for us! And my family was very happy for me.
Like some of the other posters here, I usually just share links and information about books I have read (this blog included) to those friends and family that I am comfortable talking about regarding personal finance. If they read it great, if they want a follow up conversation great. I have learned from other people, and am willing to share what I have learned as well.
However, I have to agree - it doesn’t matter how good or relevant the advice: if they are not ready to hear it or are headstrong, it doesn’t matter.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am
You can’t change anyone else. You are only in control of what you, personally, do. For this kind of situation, I take a page from my depression era grandma, who grew up in an age where good manners mattered. Don’t talk money, politics, or religion. If you do, tread with caution and be ready to retreat. If a family/friend specifically asks for help or what you are doing, tell them. But don’t offer unsolicited advice, and definitely don’t try to give them tips to ‘help’. No matter how nicely you say it, it is going to sound like, “I know better than you.”
November 21st, 2008 at 10:00 am
It has always been my experience that people are more willing to listen when you present your case in a positive manner. No one wants to hear about what they are doing wrong, so I always start with what they are doing right, then suggest some possible “improvements”.
However, this year for the holidays, I used the “common ground” technique with my family. I admitted to them that we were not doing so well financially, and that due to the current economy, I could imagine that others in the family might be struggling as well. I informed them that we had already told our kids that the holidays would be more about the experience and less about the gifts. By acknowledging that we were struggling first, this seemed to lift a great weight off of everyone’s shoulder’s and everyone was able to agree to skip the gift giving this year.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:12 am
A few months ago I gave Your Money or Your Life to a friend turning 30. I’d read it at 40, become a convert (that’s why I’m reading this blog!) and really thought it was the most loving thing I could do for someone, to give them this book — a whole decade younger than I got it. She was thrilled, hugged me, couldn’t wait to dig into it and…just last week told me that she’s looking at houses to buy. NOW. Of all times in history. It is such a dumb move and so what I’d expect of someone who hadn’t had the benefit of my trying to “save” them.
But prices have gone down here in the San Francisco Bay Area, she says! (Ye-e-e-e-s, they certainly have…) She already has loads of debt including a brand new car, rent that’s double mine, all the latest gadgets. You get the picture. And why I targetted her, frankly.
Moral of the story: your money personality is very much a moral and philosophical entity, rather like religion. And just as personal, with all the same pitfalls. You can’t convert anyone. One had better learn that frustration well or you will become like the guys ranting about *their* beliefs on the subway platforms.
And since I’m as irrational as the next human, I’ll still try giving this book to someone else again sometime.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:37 am
as a poor grad student with one one small income for two people, the only discussion i have with others about my and my partner’s finances is that we are poor and so can’t go out or buy major stuff very often. most of my friends are grad students or have has experience in the student life, so they understand this, but that doesn’t mean that they try to be as careful with their money as we try to be, so that often means being left out of social events because we literally can’t afford it.
amongst my friends, and others i am sure, there is seems to be some kind of prestige one gets from complaining about being poor despite having major spending habits. it gets really tired when you really are poor to hear these things, so i try to avoid all financial talk with everyone except my partner.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:38 am
Just a quick point - Your ideas about money ARE NOT THE ONLY WAYS TO LIVE LIFE. I think it’s fine offer advice, but it’s not gospel.
For example, some people don’t care about cars, but some people do - so driving a 10 year old beater just so they can say “It’s paid off” may not be in their best interest. Another example: I have a few friends who think Dave Ramsey is the Lord God Himself when it comes to financial matters. Anytime I try to have a thoughtful discussion about, say, the advantages of credit card rewards points, they simply shut down and start spouting his “Cut Up Your Credit Cards” rhetoric. I know Ramsey’s ideas well and the advantages his system offers, but that doesn’t mean his is the only way.
Another tip: find common ground for agreement before offering advice. For example, I’ve never met someone who denied the efficacy of saving for retirement. But most have no idea about employee matching, automatic savings plans, etc. So start the discussion out by moaning and groaning a bit about how hard it is to save (establishing common ground), then share a way in which YOU have been able to save (e.g. automatic deductions or employee matching).
great discussion topic, by the way!
OK, one final idea: make talking about personal finance automatic - and encourage it as part of our national and local discourse. Lobby local school boards to require that personal finance and economics be taught. Lobby your local pastor to incorporate personal finance discussions in the church, perhaps through classes or Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. If you’re a teacher or professor, no matter what the subject, devote a single class period a year to sharing the basic ideas behind personal finance (like automatic savings, income, output, compound interest, credit cards, and mortgages). In other words, use the more formal channels that our society has established.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:43 am
frizzy: you state: “You can’t convert anyone.”
You were converted. Many of my friends have been converted. I’ve been converted. Our society was slowly converted in the wrong direction by the credit card industry.
Don’t let one disappointment convince you that people cannot change. Maybe this post will covert you to the idea that people really can be converted by the power of ideas :).
November 21st, 2008 at 10:46 am
Whenever I talked about money with my boyfriend he would always get upset, sometimes defensive and angry. Mostly I was talking about my own choices. As someone who got her first real job out of college just over a year go, I was trying to figure out my own financial goals and the best tools to get me there. When the questions strayed his way he would become angry and defensive. I slowly realized that he avoided anything related to money.
So, one day I sat on him (literally, to keep him from walking off…) and told him that he avoided talking about money and dealing with money issues until he absolutely had to and that approach lead to the worst and least informed financial decisions. Then I asked him to think about how he was feeling and he started to realize what I was talking about. He said he had thought, “why are you ruining a perfectly good evening?” He had a psychological block against money. Now that he realizes it he has been able to confront it and start learning about money and making better financial choices.
This is a major intervention and I wouldn’t recommend this in most cases. I chose this route because I didn’t think he would ever have a financial revelation on his own. He was spending less than he earned and paying down his credit card debt, but he was making poor money decisions that were holding him back.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:20 am
I think part of this depends on relationships: partly your relationship with the other person, but also the other person’s relationship to their money.
I’m close to my siblings and have successfully hectored my sister into saving for retirement (she is 4 yrs younger and has a chunk more than I do.. I semi-joke that I’ve got dibs on her couch in our golden years). I’ve not yet been successful with my brother, but he is open about money with me and my sister generally, so I have hopes we’ll get there.
It’s a bit touchier with friends, and again depends a lot on the relationship. I have one friend I’ve been quite open with, and he was very frank about his income & expenses when I was thinking about buying a condo. His disclosure of his struggles (yikes) really helped me realize it would be too much for me to take on.
A number of my friends work with me, so our salary is VERY taboo, but I have talked/blogged openly about my retirement savings, debt repayment, and other topics, without going into exact dollar figures. I figure I can encourage openness by being open, but I would only offer my opinion or advice if it were directly requested.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:40 am
@ frizzy:
What makes buying a home now a dumb move? Is it becasue you wouldn’t do it? It is certainly a buyers’ market in most areas, and you said it yourself: your area has seen prices come down and perhaps your friend can get a mortgage that is significantly lower than her current rent. You obviously did your part in giving her the means but it totally her choice to take action with regard to her finances.
@willamettejd:
Society as a whole was converted in the “wrong direction” by credit card companies? They had guns to our heads and made evryone take on more debt then they could possibly handle? I refuse to accept that in any sense. Everyone has their own minds, and can decide (whether intelligently or not) if they want to accept an offer of credit. Maybe you should blame the media for glamourizing the “lifestyle of the rich and famous”, or the parents who neglected to teach their children about fiscal responsibility. So many people make it an issue when then they feel that parents didn’t take the time to discuss drugs, sex, smoking, etc. with their kids–why not count financial accountability in that mix?
November 21st, 2008 at 11:49 am
Oh, and by no means did I indend to come off as confrontational or condescending. For a better idea of my view read:
Credit Is Not the Enemy, You Are! and Start teaching your kids early to build a strong financial foundation
November 21st, 2008 at 11:54 am
I’ve attempted to educate my extended family for years and have finally given up teaching directly. Advice given that is not asked for is not listened to!! Today I hope my example, my blogging, and my book giving make some sort of impact.
In our home, we are extremely open in discussing money and business with our kids so they have a thorough understanding of what we do and why we do it.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:10 pm
JD, if this falls too far into the “blue” category, delete it; I promise I won’t be offended.
This post reminded me of a discussion I had with a co-worker when we lived in Boston. She was a born-and-bred New Englander, and had all of the stereotypical Puritanical hangups one might expect.
My parents had been asking me about something related to money and I was relaying the story to my co-worker. She was shocked that I’d have a conversation about money with my parents.
She said, “I’d rather talk with my parents about my favorite sexual positions than to talk with them about money!”
This was, of course, to say “not at all” since she’d die before talking about sex with them.
Anyway … discomfort in talking about money with others … related to you or not … is, imo, partly cultural, partly shame-based (we’re all afraid we’re doing it wrong), and partly because I think most of us are worried about being considered as “less” by those around us because we don’t earn as much as is our fantasy of the fictional “American Dream.”
But maybe that’s just me.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:26 pm
My sister lost her job this spring and I rushed in to help financially and give unsolicited advice. We are not particularly close. I WAS the preachy older sister but my sister was gracious enough to understand that I meant well.
SHe was laid off from her current job 2 weeks ago I found out from another family member and this time I waited for her to tell me. She called last night and I listened and waited for her to bring up whatever. I live 300 miles away and can’t afford to help financially this time even if she asked. She’s reading a Suze Orman book now and that gives me a little room to mention what I’m reading now for PF books.
I worry about her quite a bit as safety nets she has been able to access before aren’t as readily available. There’s more than a month long delay in getting unemployment benefits due to backlog and state cutbacks for example.
I feel a little guilty/stingy about not offering more knowing this, but she hasn’t asked me for anything. I’m also feeling overwhelmed financially by the prospect of impending layoffs, and not sure I have much to give (emotionally or financially) at the moment.
November 21st, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I can’t believe this is a post. I also can’t believe some of these comments.
I think Jon Kabat-Zinn sums it up nicely. Just replace “financial talk” for “meditation”:
“Every time you get a strong impulse to talk about meditation and how wonderful it is, or how hard it is, or what it’s doing for you these days, or what it’s not, or you want to convince someone else how wonderful it would be for them, just look at it as more thinking and go meditate some more. The impulse will pass and everybody will be better off — especially you.”
November 21st, 2008 at 1:50 pm
It’s great to see this quick list of actions that one can do to support loved ones who struggle to escape from a crippling cycle of debt. One of the most helpful actions I’ve found is to sit down together with that person and simply look at the debt, from all of the different sources, aggregated onto one computer screen or sheet of paper.
DebtGoal
November 21st, 2008 at 2:07 pm
J.D., I lead by example. And I do answer the questions they have. But that’s really as far as I go. If they’re not interested beyond that, I can’t force them to engage.
Most of my relatives are younger than I am. And, being of that generation, they don’t have a lot of free time to read a book. Indeed, if they can’t get the information on an iPod or can’t find it on the Internet, forget it.
Personally, I would rather send them to a site like yours. They can get well rounded information here about finances. If they want to talk about credit, well, of course, they can visit my blog. Beyond that, though, they’re likely coming to a site like yours.
J.D., keep up the great work.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Well, just the other day I sent my (adult) kids the link to this blog with the note that this was my favorite personal finance blog. One of the five thanked me.
After my oldest son got a good full-time job, he started buying a lot of electronics and “stuff.” I mentioned that I thought he should be careful with credit and try to save up for purchases, advice that he didn’t heed. I think one of my favorite moments as a mother was when he said years later, “Mom, you were right.” He’d been laid off, had little savings, and $15,000 worth of credit card debt.
My most difficult issue with finance and family was my Dad, who had some dementia. He’d seen a “estate planner” who put Dad, who was 85, into variable annuities. When the rate dropped, Dad wanted to take the $ out and put it in higher-yielding CDs, not understanding the penalties he’d face. Dad was at the point where he wouldn’t let me take care of his finances, but he wasn’t making smart decisions. Without my knowledge, he withdrew his entire IRA and stuck it into a CD. I found out two years later when the IRS came calling. At that point, he’d relinquished all his finances to me, and I was able to take care of it (pleading letters and phone calls about one’s elderly father with dementia do help). But I have no idea how I could have prevented the problems in the first place.
November 21st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
All of you who’ve been disagreeing with me, I believe you’ve proven my point. My whole point was, whatever I or you or that person over there believes strongly, you can’t count on getting anyone else to believe it. You can try, but you may or may not succeed.
Mr. Nisall, your question about why buying in the Bay Area right now is dumb reminds me of the one Louis Armstrong tried to answer when asked what jazz is. His answer was, “If you have to ask…”
But I will field the question in good faith and say: Go read Dr. Housing Bubble, go read iTulip, go read any responsible work (even if it’s off-internet!) on how much the ratio should be between the price of your home and your income. Then look at any graph of San Francisco area prices in the past 10 yrs (and linger over some photos of what you get for those prices). They have indeed come down from their all time peak — which was stratospherically unrealistic. Now the prices are semi-stratospherically unrealistic. And they’ll be falling for another two years.
If my friend had a trust fund, then this income to price ratio would be less important. But unless she’s hit the lottery since I spoke to her, her less than 6-figure income (which she revealed to me) is what she has to work with. And I repeat, the girl in question is already financed to the eyeballs on car, toys, lifestyle. Even in “normal” times, that’s no time to be buying a house.
But, yeah. This is just how I feel and what I believe. Never said it was anything but.
November 21st, 2008 at 4:43 pm
We’ve found that mentioning what worked for us but not saying, “you should do this” is less likely to aggravate someone.
November 21st, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Just want to say thank you to everyone who has left comments! I think I will take the majority of the advice which agreed with J.D. … continue to strengthen my finances, share my successes (and failures) with my loved ones, and if they want to know more, respond with “I tried …” statements rather than “you could …”
I did email this blog and a couple of other resources on to a friend earlier this month, and got a nice thank you! So that’s a great idea.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Family = wealthy, me = not so wealthy, so there’s tension.
Things I would rather do than talk about money with my family:
Lick the floor of a subway car during a snowstorm
Attend an autopsy
Read tax legislation from cover to cover
Watch “Taming of the Shrew”, in Klingon
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 am
I think JD is so right here - lead by example - or like I’ve come across in a few places: clean up your own backyard before you criticize someone else’s weeds… I think this goes for fitness, money, health, education, etc…. you are best to get someone to do something by enjoying what you are doing, being successful and then being there to mentor that person *if* they want to be mentored; if they don’t, no worries either! Life is too short to worry about what goals other people aren’t reaching in their own lives, its barely long enough to get done what we need to get done without having to worry about someone who likes to wallow in self-pity!
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:39 am
Guys, the comments on this piece have been incredibly awesome!
@Andrew #15
I thought that this was an excellent comment, and I was very glad to see the variety of questions that were asked in their manual. I had to stop and think for a minute about the debit/charge/credit card question, and I’m a fair bit older than a scout. I’m trying to remember if there were any such badges in Girl Guides but I can’t remember right now… Maybe I’ll go and look over my old badges.
@slackerjo
I do hope you live in a VERY snowy city
I do and I just about FELL off my chair laughing at this comment
November 22nd, 2008 at 4:14 am
@ slackerjoe…THANKS for a great wake up laugh this a.m.!
Lead by example..best advice out there.
I tend toward shoving my most successful experiences (diet, money) down my loved ones’ throats and my financial score is one success(oldest dd), two not interesteds (Mother and youngest dd), and one happy with me but not participating like I thought(husband) though he claims success because he told me about Dave Ramsey. (He wrote down his daily expenses for about three days and now just puts his receipts in a plastic bag on the counter.)
Fortunately, my oldest dd is working, with a fairly decent income, and also talks with her friends about financial stuff, something I would have never done at that age. She reads this and other financial blogs so is always thinking about saving a dollar or a dime.
I continue to send links to great posts or good info to my youngest dd, even though I can hear a yawn the size of the Grand Canyon from across town when she gets my emails. If I don’t, then I’ll be accused of “caring more about K than me.”… sometimes you just can’t win.
My mother “misplaced” the fabulous spreadsheet I made for her that scheduled how to be out of debt by March of 2009. I have no idea where she is on this journey and has yet to acknowledge that my daughters are no longer charging gas on her gas card (a gift she gave them) or using her credit card (another gift she gave them) so that she can use that money toward her debt reduction plan.
But I digress…I’ve very thankful for this topic because when I first started this I had this bright idea that I would give all my oldest dd’s friends that were getting married a PF book, some money for a savings account and a note about how I wished I’d had a book or some education in this area when I first got married. I never got around to it and am now glad I didn’t. Might just have been too insulting.
November 22nd, 2008 at 6:47 am
In regards to comment 3, there are good reasons for overweight people to be offended when someone brings up weight. Unless I am so heavy that I cannot move, there’s no real evidence that being fat in itself causes health problems. Also, the same bad habits that are blamed for overweight can be found in many, many slender people. For instance, me, when I was slender. It wasn’t eating what I wanted and being lazy that made me fat, ultimately. It was three episodes of getting higher doses of progesterone than I was used to: going on the Pill and being pregnant twice. So yes, if you start in on someone about their weight, expect them to be angry. If they aren’t, you got off lucky, and you need to mind your own business. If the usual approaches to weight loss really worked for most people, there wouldn’t be a weight loss industry.
Back to the subject of this post: I have given out two copies of YMOYL, but not as “official” gifts during “gift-giving time.” With the first one it was the old version and I’d bought the latest edition and passed the old one on to my little girl’s dad, who is a good earner but a profligate spender. He is in the habit of letting other people handle his finances (which doesn’t work out very well), so I figured he wouldn’t mind. He hasn’t read it yet, but doesn’t seem to have been offended. The second instance was when I had an extra copy of the book because of moving back and forth from Ohio to Louisiana, and I ultimately left the extra copy with my dad, accompanied by a note recommending that he read it. I doubt he did, but as close to retirement as he is and in as much debt as he is, I thought an indirect way of offering help might be called for. I don’t want to see him struggle when he should be enjoying his retirement. I know, however, that it’s up to him. so I have not mentioned the book since I left it with him and I do not nag.
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 am
OK, I am the “meany” in the family. At least that is what my sister called me years ago. You see, I was the one delivering the tough message about income and expenses because I truely cared.
After my fathers death, I continued to give my Mom financial advice. If I suggested she go right she would go left. In her mind, if she deviated from my suggestion she would be independent. After a few years she was broke and in serious debt. Slowly she would listen to me some, but it never failed, that one of my brothers would step in a say “I will take care of you”. This prolonged the problem and it wasn’t until they failed that my Mom hit bottom and asked for help. I then turned suggestions into action and today she owns her house free and clear. This was accomplished without spending one dime of my own money to prop her up.
I have been married 12 years to a wonderfull woman who has cost our family 10s of thousand of dollars. Similarly, if I suggested to go right she would go left and take the advice of others, like realators. This has been an extra ordinary year in that she lost a heck of a lot of money in Real Estate. I gave her a book called “The Smart Cookies’: Guide to Making More Dough”. It is about how five women changed their money habits. It has been an amazing turn around. We now use a “jar” method to control spending and my lovely wife is making better choices when trying to increase our means while still living within our means. We have a long journey to pay off the debt we have incurred. I believe this is possible now that my wife and I are on the same page with regards to finances.
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I’m very lucky to have parents who were thrifty and managed their money well– and they passed those values on to me early, by involving me in discussions about financial decisions, and serving as examples by making smart choices.
Our dialogue about life goals, and how finances fit into those plans, has never stopped. However, the conversation now has a different dynamic given the economic situation. I have my own career, and am planning on supporting my parents at least partially through their retirement. In looking at real estate, for example, I’m considering places with easy wheelchair access and proximity to neighborhoods I could see my parents living in.
While my parents are already making responsible decisions about their financial planning, it’s easier on all of us to keep informed. Communication is going to be different for all families, but starting a dialogue and keeping it going is really one of the most important things you can do.
November 22nd, 2008 at 10:36 pm
This is a perfectly-timed article. I am struggling with how to deal with my parents’ finances. They are in almost $100,000 of debt (before the house they just bought that they cannot afford). They keep saying that they want to get out of debt, but then they make a credit card payment and run up the balance again. Or open a new card. Or buy a new car. Of course I care about them and want to help them get out of the mess, but I also know that they are adults that don’t need my advice necessarily.
What I don’t want to happen is for them to get to a point where they are so down and out from frivolous spending that they start to depend on me to dig them out (therefore jeopardizing my own childrens’ future). I know that is coming someday, and I’d love to help them get out of this situation so that we don’t even get to that point. I’m a teacher, so I don’t make enough money that I will ever be able to support other adults - I am working hard enough to be able to pay off my student loans, save some money for retirement, and put a down payment on a house.
I feel like there are three options, really - 1) Talk to them and help them fix it (which could go terribly wrong) 2) Prepare myself to say “No” to the parents that love me when they can’t afford to survive anymore after all of this silly spending or 3) Start saving now to help them out of the looming disaster.
Suggestions?
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Financial advice is always tricky, and I think it depends on the kind of relationship you have with different people.
The main person I give advice to is my mom. As with Mike C, it took a crisis to get her to actually talk about finances.
In this case, it wasn’t just her crisis of feeling the 1999 tech bust to her stocks, but the death of my father, who she was divorced from. It enabled us to have a good discussion with her about how prepared she was for her own retirement.
I will mention that she’s frugal with money in her checkbook, but somehow she just can’t handle investments in the same way, having almost a gambling mentality and really seeming to enjoy the drama at times. Very frustrating.
Anyway, based on our initial money talks and looking over her finances for the first time, I took her around to two financial advisers mostly to get them to talk her out of buying real estate with her entire retirement fund.
Although I made calls to every single financial place in the city of 40,000, NONE of them were paid by the hour. So I picked the two who answered my questions the best.
One of those people really was great. He talked her out of buying our father’s home with her entire savings account to rent out to a relative who has a track record of not paying for things himself. For that advice alone I would have gladly paid a fee.
The adviser also looked over her two annuities and confirmed my fears that she was locked into her decisions and couldn’t recommend her changing them for a few years until some clauses in the annuities kicked in.
No fees were paid for this good advice, since they were paid on commission and we didn’t buy something.
My mom still has her moments, so monitoring what she plans to do with her money every few months is extremely crucial. On big issues I will continually nag her and enlist one of my brothers to work on her until she follows my advice or it’s too late.
Examples of the drama over the last few years: 1) spending a year finally talking her out of co-signing a loan (for the relative she wanted to buy the house and rent to), 2) finally getting her to moving her variable annuities out of 100% stocks after her retirement last year and into some bonds , 3) talking her OUT of trying to time the down market last spring and rebuying those stocks.
I recently read about how many people aged 55-65 don’t understand the risk for their 401(k) money and keep it all in stocks just like she did.
Things like this I have to continually follow up on and emphasize that any major decision that she should ask me first BEFORE she does it rather than complaining about it after wards. I lavish praise on her when she finally does something. Also, pointing out when my choices for her prove right.
Among the minor things are trying to persuade her that it’s worth an hour of her time to track down the best CD rates every six months when they come due. “Oh, that’s so much work!” she replied when I told her she should do this. I do try to let these smaller things go instead of nagging about them, since they’re unlikely to ruin her.
Realize this is a long, specific ramble, but if it helps someone….
November 23rd, 2008 at 3:12 am
My poverty fills me with shame, so I withdraw and don’t talk at all - just hide behind my keyboard.
November 23rd, 2008 at 5:04 am
Good post! I think it’s important that a couple actually be in tune financially before they get married or live together. Once a couple gets in debt or establishes bad financial habits, it’s difficult to change behavior. So, look for someone who is like-minded when looking for a partner!
My two cents!
November 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 am
I mind my own business and never ever give advice unless it’s actually asked for. If someone makes some comment on how well I manage my money, I’ll talk about it if they’re genuinely interested, but always in terms of what I do, rather than what I think they could/should do.
As for books - I’d give or lend a book if they’d previously expressed some interest in it - but never out of the blue. Giving someone a self-help type of book (including personal finance books) when they’ve not asked for help if tantamount to saying ‘I think you’re screwing up & you need to do this to fix your life’. There’s no surprise if that goes down badly!
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
As our leader at the Course In Miracles puts it, “With love.” With compassion, and understanding of their specific life situation, and awareness that they may have very different lessons to get out of this life.
So I have a couple rules about this - general ones, not just about money. “There are as many paths [to God] as there are people.” (the Ghita), or what is right for you isn’t necessarily right for anyone else; and ‘offer unsolicited advice once’. So, for example, when I see my 4-year-old pointing a hose at himself and squeezing the handle, I’d say once that I wouldn’t do that - if he asks, I’ll say more; otherwise I’ll watch him get a facefull…
I almost lost a good friend making repeat suggestions while traveling. So now, it’s universal. I see someone doing something I wouldn’t financially, maybe I’ll mention a better way: “You know, you could do it this way…” If they don’t reply, or act annoyed, I drop it and change the subject.
It actually works well, because I’ve still put a thought in their mind that I have some ideas on money, and they’ll often come back later and ask a question. If not, they’re not ready now.
Another thing that helps is the realization that there are many -smarts: street-smarts, book-smarts, sports-smarts, money-smarts, art-smarts, etc. And money is only one, and no more important than the others, just harder to avoid. If you’re not ’smart’ at sports, you can just avoid the topic - money’s a little harder to avoid, at least long-term. And pointing that out helps - money suggestions become not a criticism, but an acknowledgment that everyone has their strengths and can help out somewhere. Just go out of your way to ask their advice and acknowledge where they could help you. Everything is easier among equals, and we all are equal.
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:53 am
@ Boomer:
Now substitute ‘inability to grow plants’ for ‘poverty’. Would that shame you? It’s just another skill though…
In my experience, shame is a great way to avoid acceptance and advancement. So spend time and get to know that ’shame’, let it be okay to be poor, and from that state of mind, start learning.
And I’d recommend starting with ‘It’s Not About the Money’ by Brent Kessel. He spends a lot of time on money archetypes, their views on money, and what would balance each one. And really, that’s all we need - a little balance.
November 23rd, 2008 at 12:39 pm
No, it’s not okay to be poor when you start out with high aptitude. To whom much is given, much shall be required. I am a colossal underachiever.
November 24th, 2008 at 5:46 am
@ Jessica Right now it seems that your parents aren’t leaning on you, but rather you are worried they will be in the future. The only way I know of gently handling it is to make it clear in conversations that you are focused on getting your children ahead or meeting your own goals in life, and that you are hoping they are making decisions to do the same. This may lead to an airing of expectations so prior to really doing this I willpoint out that there are books out there (Dave Ramsey is always recommending one called “Boundries”, and Charles Schwabs has a book on talking with family about money) you can likely get from the library which can help you understand where you are and how to raise or discuss the issue.
I would like to think that most parents don’t want to be dependent on their children in their later years, but I also think many don’t know how to plan it so they won’t be.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:30 am
So what ARE you supposed to do when a person’s financial situation does or will affect you? My mother-in-law lives with us now, she doesn’t think about money at all and earns almost nothing. She is happy to have her son (my husband) and her daughter pay for her expenses, take her to dinner, etc. As far as she is concerned, her credit card balance is fine so long as she can make the monthly payment. She just doesn’t get the concept of personal finances - i.e. she doesn’t understand that eating at Panera twice a week adds up, or that she doesn’t automatically deserve to treat herself to x or y just because, when she doesn’t have the money. My husband doesn’t really care enough to talk to her about it past the bare minimum. Even if we did have another serious talk with her, it just doesn’t sink in. Her philosophy is “I can’t save much, so I might as well not save anything”. Obviously, her son and daugther will be responsible for her when she gets too old to work at all or has some health crisis. Even though I don’t think there’s much or anything I can do, it is so hard to sit by and say nothing.
November 24th, 2008 at 7:41 am
I also worry very much about my parents. They have been barely eeking out a living with their own business for about 30 years. They are in their early 60s and have no retirement. They just seem to have no sense when it comes to money.
I used to get very frustrated, then I heeded the same advice mentioned above: you are the only person you can control. Now I try not to talk about money with them if I can help it.
My parents are used to living on very little, so living on social security alone may not be so hard for them. And, once they qualify for Medicare, their level of health care will actually go UP!
We never, ever talked about money when we were growing up. All my mother ever said was “If you want it, save your money for it,” with no clues how to actually do this, and no example to follow. Plus, I didn’t have any money, so how was I supposed to save it??
My spouse’s mother is the exact opposite. She loves to talk about money and is very frugal. When my father-in-law died last year, she didn’t have to worry about money at all. She shares all of her money information with us, and asks what we think about decisions like buying a new car (in cash, of course!).
I want to pass on a legacy of good money management to my daughter, who is 3 1/2, so I plan to be open about money and teach her how to be prosperous as well.
November 24th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
@ Julie B
It sounds like your first problem isn’t with your MIL but with your DH. You must be on the same side or what you think/say/do has no consequence (which is where it sounds like you are). But you have a right to put your foot down. She may be his mom but like with an adult child. Just because she is an adult doesn’t mean she is autonomous. If you are partially supporting her (even if it’s just room/board) then you have a right to force issues about finances. Perhaps you want to charge rent (or more rent) and put it into a fund for when you have to bail her out. Once again, you can’t do anything without DH and if he doesn’t agree then you have to work it out between you.
@ Jessica
I think there is plenty you can say without going into specifics. It reminds me of a friend of mine in HS when she got involved with a guy her parents didn’t approve. As soon as she told me my response was “Good for you. But don’t you EVER expect me to cover for you. If you give me as an alibi and your mom calls I’ll tell her the truth.” Since she never expected me to bail her out I never let her down. Have a talk with them NOW and tell them the same thing. “You are adults and are allowed to make your own financial decisions. But don’t expect me to bail you out. I can offer advice now to keep you solvent for as long as possible. But I won’t support you.”
You just have to be up front about where you draw the line. Some people don’t take it well, but it’s important to do it before it’s a problem because they will take it even worse then.
November 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Great advice! This is pretty much what I do.
I mentioned to my sister that I did my own taxes last year. She asked if I’d help her file her state taxes. This lead to a comment from her about finding out what student loans she all had and getting her finances straightened out. I sent her a link that will let you find all your student loans, although I don’t think she ever used it. I also showed her my own budget sheet. When I finish the financial program I’m writing, I’ll give her a copy. Whether she uses it or not is up to her, and I’ll surely never ask her unless she brings it up.
She was looking for some help and I gave her as much as she was willing to actually take and then I dropped it. She knows I’m here and willing to help if she needs it.
November 25th, 2008 at 7:05 am
I’ve told several people about your blog and other pf blogs It motivates me to read about others struggles and goals!
November 25th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I attempt to, but they’re not interested in it for the most part. I think this has to do with my age (I’m only 22), and that for some reason discounts my credibility and knowledge, despite going to school for finance. So many family members, immediate and not have bad monetary habits, it’s rather sickening. As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to water…
November 25th, 2008 at 11:21 am
As the saying goes, “You can only lead a horse to water - you cannot make it drink.” You CAN however feed it a whole lot of salt…
I’d think the best way to get on this topic with someone who is resisting is to demonstrate just how well it works. Maybe take them to dinner to celebrate reaching your emergency fund filling, or $100k in your retirement.
As they see you doing well, the topic is a lot more likely to come up from their side.
December 7th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Now you all know how behind in my RSS feeder reading I am … but I know these articles have a great “long tail” readership and I thought that I’d drop in my AU$0.02 since it was something that hadn’t been mentioned yet.
I have been slowly sharing ideas with my Flatmate who was, when he first came to live with me, a rather profligate spender by my standards… although he didn’t have any debt he was living hand-to-mouth and really wanted to be saving but couldn’t quite figure it out. He had been talking at one point about wanting to save for a monthly public transit ticket, which would be quite discounted compared to a month of daily tickets. I just listened and nodded at all his reasons it would be cool to have one. Later that same day I mentioned dinner and he suggested getting something delivered instead of cooking… I did some quick mental math and pointed out if he quit ordering delivery twice a week, he’d be able to pay for his ticket in this many weeks. I can’t remember the exact numbers now, and I offered it as a semi-joke … I didn’t really expect him to go and cook that night and he duly ordered pizza and it was nice. But the number of times takeaway was ordered did gradually drop, and many months later I was thanked for the advice.
I think that’s my most common financial sharing tactic, because I’m always amazed at the way numbers multiply… sacrifice one your $3 daily coffees and save the money and you’ll have $1000 in a year! Having one less coffee doesn’t seem like much of a strain to most people, and the lure of $1000 can be impressive.
Obviously this isn’t going to be an immediate solution for those in acute crisis, but I think learning financial skills is like learning any skill - you have to start slowly. The “hitting rock bottom” method of changing may be inevitable for same, and can certainly produce rapid change, but I like the slow approach too
And I totally agree with all those people who commented about the “you can lead a horse to water” thing. I think it’s the inverse of the maxim about not lending money you can’t afford to loose - don’t share advice if you can’t cope with it being ignored.