RSS Feeds
Facebook
GRS Twitter
I called my little brother yesterday. He lost his home to foreclosure last fall, and things have only continued to get worse. He and his wife are doing the best they can, but they feel overwhelmed.
“What’s the latest?” I asked. Tony gave me an update. We talked about his problems with insurance, and with the bank, and with the debt settlement service. We talked about his options for the future.
“All things considered, I guess we’re doing okay,” Tony said. “But to be honest, we’ve thought about relocating to Kansas.”
“Kansas?” I said. “Why Kansas?”
“I was at a trade show in Kansas a couple of months ago,” Tony said. “And I got to talking with a woman who does something with economic development in Osage County. Apparently you can get all sorts of financial help for starting a business there. Plus things are less expensive in Kansas.”
Tony and I laughed about the notion of his family relocating to the heartland. There’s nothing wrong with Kansas, but it seems like such a non-sequitur. Our family has deep roots here in Oregon. We have no relationship to Kansas.
Later, though, I realized that it might make sense for Tony to move. Because he sells a product across the United States, his income is not tied to where he lives. If he moved from Bend, Oregon — which has a high cost-of-living — to someplace less expensive, it could make a great difference to his financial situation. (The big question, of course, is whether his quality of life would change.)
Just for kicks, I ran some numbers through the Bankrate cost-of-living comparison calculator. This is one of my favorite financial calculators. I love to play with the numbers, trying to find expensive places to live (San Francisco! New York!) and cheap places to live (Waco, Texas! Salina, Kansas!) Portland is sort of in the middle. Guessing at Tony’s salary, it looks like he could save significantly by moving from Bend to Osage County:
Cost of living is one of those factors that few people consider, but which can have a huge impact on the family budget. When you have access to affordable housing, and when food, clothing, and health care costs are manageable, it’s easier to meet your financial goals. Sometimes it’s possible to make choices that keep costs low and allow you to stay where you are. But in other cases, it can make sense to relocate to a region with a lower cost of living.
I admit that over the past few years, I’ve been fascinated by the stories of towns in Kansas and North Dakota offering free land and other incentives to lure new residents. Coupled with low costs of living, these locations really appeal to me. “Wouldn’t you like to live in northwest North Dakota?” I asked Kris recently. She gave me The Look.
I guess we’ll stay in Portland for now.
This article is about Choices, Odds and Ends Saturday, 14th March 2009 (by J.D. Roth)
March 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Great post. We spent two years in WV and were shocked at how much money were able to save by living in the sticks. It is not for everyone, but if you are willing to relocate, moving somewhere cheap is a great idea! Especially in this economy. The only downside is that sometimes in low cost areas, jobs are also low paying. Of course if you work from home or can telecommute this is a great opportunity.
Toni
March 14th, 2009 at 7:17 am
We lived just up the road from your brother, in Sisters. It was an amazing place and the closest to “home” I’ve ever felt. But, oh, the cost of living was horrendous. We’re in a better place financially now, but what we gained in fiscal comfort we are suffering in loss of humanity. People here think the ground is for littering on and cigarette butts are knee deep on the corners.
I miss the “life” in the Pacific Northwest, the trees, clean air and people who care about their surroundings. Some things can’t be bought.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:23 am
A guy on Making Light recently bought a house in Indiana, sight unseen, for eight thousand dollars. If it doesn’t work for his family, he figures he can sell it for about the same– enough people have been commenting on his house discovery saga in the most recent open thread.
Ohio has a few science fiction writers, not least because it can be cheap. Talking with Tobias Buckell once, he said that he had a friend who lamented that he couldn’t take time to write… and said friend lived in a $400k house. Toby told him to sell the house, move to Ohio, buy a $100k house, and live off the rest of the money while writing.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:26 am
It seems very odd to me to even consider it based on some rumors he heard from a stranger.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Imagine that… when the government rewards people for starting a business and has less restrictions, people succeed…
March 14th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Bank Rate’s home price of $350K could be a little outdated for Bend. The Bend Bulletin reported $230K in February.
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090211/BIZ0102/902110365
Like most of the population, I moved to Bend 3 years ago. We made the decision to move out here, from suburban Chicago, for less income and have been working on reducing our expenses over the last 3 years. We rented here until last October and then bought a home, after the market went down (and it is still going down). The entertainment is cheaper here than in Chicago, if you like that sort of thing. We’re about ready to head for one of our favorite hiking trails.
I really enjoy your blog–thanks for writing it. I wish the best of luck to your brother and his family.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:40 am
We moved from the Northwest (Seattle) for this reason and are doing better financially, but god how I miss the area! There is not a day that goes by that I don’t think about going back.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Why stop at Kansas? I am convinced I can live like a king in Ethiopia for less than around USD$300/month, plus the weather is much nicer (13 months of sunshine, baby!). There are always great deals on real estate in Latin America, and probably Asia, and the dollar is strong compared to everywhere. Not sure about jobs in those areas, you can take an internet business anywhere, get a job with NGO, or you can teach English anywhere. And arguably if you want real money in getting involved with a new business in a booming economy, the places to be are China & India.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Sometimes I can’t tell if Frugal Bachelor is being sarcastic or serious.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Kansas is not all that bad, save maybe for the windspeed come winter, brrrr. The metropolitain areas on the Kansas side of Kansas City, Johnson County has excellent home values and inventory. Great proximity to all the typical city attaractions including that major airport to travel from.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I grew up in Indiana, but I moved to the Northeast as an adult, and I could never leave here now. Anyone thinking of relocating should carefully consider the cultural differences and lifestyle changes. Sure, a house is a lot cheaper in Indiana, but you have to drive *everywhere* and plan on going to the big-box stores on the edge of town for pretty much every purchase. My sister was shocked to discover that her health insurance coverage was not as good (and the quality of health care was much lower). I love living in a small, walkable city with good transit connections and only having one car. I also love being close enough to a big city to have all those amenities at my fingertips.
Also, consider that wages may very well be lower in your new home and the cost of ordinary things like gas and groceries may be higher. Here in the Northeast we get killed on rent and home prices but most other things are pretty reasonable; the last time I visited my mother-in-law in Arkansas, she was paying a buck more a gallon for milk than I was. And if you don’t like it, and want to bail out, you’ll likely be selling your home in the heartland for a lot less than the price of a new place on either coast.
The only reason to live in a place is because you love it. Cheap housing will never make you as happy as good friends, a great job, or a beautiful view. Of course, if all these things co-exist in the same place—consider yourself blessed!
March 14th, 2009 at 8:26 am
This is a great topic, I can’t wait to read all the responses. Normally throughout history people lived where they could find work. The normal rules of economics more or less dictated that people would choose to locate themselves (assuming they were free to do so) in the area where the difference between their earnings and expenses would be greatest, thus yielding the most financial benefit. Obviously, it was never QUITE that easy because of family ties, fear, etc., but the point is that that was the general goal or at least the sensible idea. In fact, our country was the great embodiment of this idea for hundreds of years. If you were fed up with your lot in Europe, save up passage for the New World. If you were barely making it on the crowded east coast, head out west to your own homestead where on 40 acres anyone with a strong back can live off the sweat off his brow.
This mentality has drastically changed recently, very recently in a historic perspective, within the past generation certainly. Many people in our society, most often the elite by educational standards, are consciously choosing to give up overall financial independence in order to live in a more expensive area—usually the major cities. Their parents might have chosen to commute to the cities from the suburbs, and justified the higher cost of real estate on Long Island vs. Kansas because, yes, they in fact could make more money in New York. But their children are going the next step, and ignoring the math. Even presented with what opportunities await them elsewhere, they will many times choose the more expensive city for reasons that defy economics.
I’m not developing this theory purely from anecdotal evidence, although for anyone who is interested I have PLENTY of stories from the choices and situations of my late-20’s college classmates. More to the point, there is more and more concrete evidence emerging from various professions where it is now commonly accepted for the going salaries of the exact same job to be significantly HIGHER in North Dakota than in Washington, D.C. My brother is a physician, and we have discussed this recently. According to the economics of it, there are many doctors who would rather work in Georgetown (Washington, D.C.) for $125,000 than North Dakota for $300,000 (exact same specialty).
Many of the well educated, creative types who read this blog are going to argue “That’s not all that surprising. I’d rather live in Georgetown too. I’m surrounded by culture. I have theater, arts. I NEED that stimulation in order to be an artist.”
Perhaps that’s true; I’m not an artist, so I can’t say for sure. But realistically, does anyone need to be located in a cultural epicenter like that for the stimulation? Do you really need to see the original painting hanging in a museum or can a google search and a good printer provide you all the details you need? Doesn’t Amazon deliver anywhere in the country. You can quite cheaply have any book ever published delivered to your door (with very few exceptions, I’m sure). Netflix delivers foreign films. Even for the things that you need to see in person, I know from experience that a Priceline hotel in Manhattan and half price tickets to Broadway are well within reach for someone with enough savings margin to enjoy regularly enough. In truth, based on the economics of it, my wife and I can actually enjoy, through Amtrak, Priceline, and TKTS more Broadway plays living in a formerly rural part of the South than I could if I lived within walking distance to Broadway.
Of course, the final argument is the fellow people. Some want to be constantly surrounded by a certain type of like-minded, similarly educated fellow citizen. If you’re an artistic type you might think this is necessary. But I can’t help but think of those writers, for example, who over the past couple centuries have authored the greatest works of literature. Did not most of them all ideally seek the peace and solitude of the country to pen their masterpieces. It seems like only now, however, those who aspire to produce similar works demand the exact opposite setting in which to do so. But this might be an oversimplification.
In conclusion, there are certainly many people for whom the expensive city is absolutely necessary for their careers. My point, however, is that there are many others who erroneously think this applies to them because they want to live a certain lifestyle (Carrie Bradshaw’s perhaps). And they delude themselves with certain self justifications outlined above, and they give up a lifetime’s worth of financial independence and prosperity in the exchange.
But, honestly J.D., Kansas? I wouldn’t go there at gunpoint.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Even if Frugal Bachelor is being sarcastic, his points should not be lost entirely — see my post on Peace Corps that I just added to your previous post: (http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/03/13/finding-a-good-job-in-a-bad-economy/).
Something to consider for those without kids or significant debt; and the benefits are way beyond financial.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:29 am
The problem with moving to a less expensive part of the country is that, if home prices and rents rise while you are gone, it is extremely difficult to get back in. It’s possible to save like crazy, of course, or to move into a much smaller place or to rent when you used to own. But I know many people who moved from Massachusetts to New Hampshire and others who moved from Illinois to Wisconsin. Quite a few feel miserable and trapped. NH and WI are great places to live, but often people want to be closer to the family and friends they had when they were young.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Sometimes cost of living can be misleading. I moved to Saskatoon, Canada with a famously low cost of living from Vancouver, Canada with a famously high one, and have found it costs more to live here in many ways. For example it is almost impossible to live here without a car, but in Vancouver I took the bus everywhere. Food, clothing, etc. are also more expensive as they need to be shipped farther. However, moving here has been a great move for me professionally and financially.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:41 am
FrugalBachelor;
I’ve worked with “government contractors” that did EXACTLY what you were talking about. I can’t say any more.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:44 am
“The problem with moving to a less expensive part of the country is that, if home prices and rents rise while you are gone, it is extremely difficult to get back in…I know many people who moved from Massachusetts to New Hampshire and others who moved from Illinois to Wisconsin.”
@KM,
Tell them to wait a few more months. They’ll get back in.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:47 am
My parents live in Kansas and have a vacation home in Oregon. They more or less flee to Oregon whenever their schedule permits. Consider this as a warning to your brother.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:53 am
A lot of it comes down to what you like to do in your free time, and how established your roots are in a particular area.
I’ve lived in large expensive cities and small cheap towns, and they each have their advantages. There are more things to do in a large city, but smaller towns tend to be friendlier and much less expensive. If you generally spend most of your time at home or in your local community, living in a small town is pefectly enjoyable. If you are the type that enjoys the latest trendy restaurant, night club, or entertainment, a small town will be stifling.
The big draw back to small towns is that the wages are usually quite a bit less. I’m fortunate to have a job that pays well while still allowing me to live in a cheap rural community. I’m more of a stay at home type, so, for me, it is ideal.
March 14th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Don’t forget taxes. I moved from Illinois to Iowa and the states taxes went from 3% to 9%! A lot of more rural states have higher taxes since they can’t tax commerce and business so much.
March 14th, 2009 at 9:19 am
That comparison was interesting, but when I plugged in my metro area– Columbus, Ohio– bankrate.com puts our house prices at $294,598.00. Wow. I strongly suspect that’s an Average value.
Our median homeprice in 2007 was $164,291. That’s a significant difference, and from living here, I can say much more accurate. (Our house is worth about 120K, 1500 square feet, 3 bedrooms, decent enough neighborhood, etc.)
So I’d definitely check bankrate, but do some research in your area to get a better picture. $294K in Columbus Metro means–right now–a 3300 square foot house with 4 bedrooms and 3 baths on a wooded ravine cul-de-sac in a suburb with excellent schools.
That is not quite “average.”
But comparing apples to apples, if the same holds true in other areas, the site is useful. I could maintain my standard of living in your area, JD, if I earned about 20 percent more annually. I’m sure Portland is lovely, but I don’t want to work that hard.
March 14th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Wow, I did not know there was a cost-of-living calculator on the internet to figure out a general estimate! Great find and excellent post! Thanks!
March 14th, 2009 at 9:40 am
I love cost of living comparison calculators. My brother moved from Bellingham, WA to Boston (Maynard) MA about 10 years ago. What a culture shock, eh? He makes plenty of money and is very secure, so that was ok. THEN he got a new job in the San Francisco Bay area. COL even higher than Boston! Thank goodness his work can support that.
I currently live in Bullhead City, AZ, where the cost of living is low. But oh, how I want to move back to the Pacific Northwest.
March 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am
I just moved from Memphis, which is one of the cheaper large cities in this country. However as we found out the numbers are skewed. Living in Memphis is cheap…unless you want to be safe. We payed dearly for housing in a nice, “safe” neighborhood. We also paid for added neighborhood security patrols, an alarm system, and the cost of beefing up the locks and steel exterior doors on our doors and windows. It worked, our home was never robbed in the 8.5 years we lived there, wish I could say the same about our cars. But everything there was more expensive - insurance, taxes, private schools (cause the public ones were horrendous) - and most of that was due to crime. If you wanted to live in the city you had to pay for it. I loved living in that city, but having seen what else is out there I’ll never return.
We moved to a small city in NC (about 250k) and we got 2.5 times as much house with 10 times as much land only 3 miles from the city center and our taxes are less (percentage wise) and the cost was only $150k more than we were paying for our townhouse on a zero lot in Memphis. We put in a security system - mainly for fire protection - and we’ll probably beef up some of the door locks, but nothing like Memphis. My neighbor laughed when I told him what we planned on doing - he said not to spend too much cause it would be a waste. But the main thing is here in this smaller city housing values aren’t widely different due to the safety of the neighborhood - generally every neighborhood is safe and therefore housing costs don’t vary dramatically throughout the city like they did in Memphis.
So we’ve sacrificed quite a few big city amenities, but we have a safer, cheaper home and much better jobs. We’re happier. Not only are we making more money, but the money is being better spent.
March 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Wow, people are willing to do so much in the name of protecting their ability to accumulate All Mighty STUFF, live in homes that are three times bigger than they need, and structure their lives around getting free stuff from the government. I’ve always lived exactly where I want to live and where will make me happiest, which is mostly the most expensive places out there (DC, SF, LA, London). I’d take being near my friends and family and in a place I love any day over the ability to buy more crap and own a bigger house. Owning less junk, owning a 15-year old car, and living in a tiny apartment are totally worth the trade-off.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I love Bankrate. So many cool tools there.
I think the financial analysis has to be based on lifestyle. There is such a lifestyle difference between different towns that can have a huge financial impact.
For example, I live in a big city with a good transit system and tons of cultural opportunities. As a result, 1) I don’t have a car and 2) I only need a small condo because I go out a lot. If I were to move to a smaller city, I might need to get a car and I might want a bigger home because I’d spend more time there. So maybe the cost of living would be a wash.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:05 am
As a person who is proud to live in “small town” Kansas I would have to agree with the people who say that money is not everything. It depends on what is important to you. Our cost of living is much less because as has been stated most of our wages are less. Our taxes can be HIGH depending on which county you live in. Our education system is ranked among the highest in the nation. And as a rule our work ethic is unsurpassed.
However community theater and school activities are our sports and art. Were I live (not where your brother has looked at) it is 250 miles to anything bigger and most of that is what you would call small. To me it is nothing to drive 5 hours to Wichita to the garden show. People drive 5 hours to Colorado Springs to do their school shopping. We like that because we get to eat at more than 3 restaurants and see and do other things. Occasionally I miss those things so I take a trip enjoy them and then gladly come home to the place I love.
If you brother is the type of person who is willing to move into a community, find things to be involved in and give of himself he could be so busy he catches himself coming and going like the rest of us. If however he is the kind that likes to remain anonymous then he might want to reconsider Kansas. Any school aged child can tell you, few things are anonymous in this part of the country.
My daughter is currently looking to move to the northwest because what you have appeals to her. We have beauty but one must look harder to find it. I love cities but my husband would be incredibly hard to live with anyplace larger than where we are.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am
We are going to be relocating from the SF Bay Area for Portland mostly because the lower cost of living and the fact that we will be able to maintain the quality of life thats important to us: no extreme weather, walkable neighborhoods, good public transportation, green city, tons of independent shops and restaurants, great culinary scene, etc. We wouldn’t go to a place where we know we would be unhappy just to save a few bucks though. Its not worth it.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:18 am
KF, that is a somewhat arrogant post. Clearly you like living in urban areas - that’s perfectly fine. Often living in expensive areas means exactly what you said - living in much smaller spaces, (perhaps) having much less stuff. However, the decision not to live in a city is clearly not based just on living “in homes that are three times bigger than they need and getting free stuff from the government.” I live just outside of Boston, and it is still a bit too busy for me. I grew up in a more rural neighborhood, and that is where I aspire to live in the future. I’d like to have a garden, a small house of my own to take care of (rather than lousy landlords who opt out of larger regular maintenance), a dog. It’s not accumulating “All Mighty STUFF,” it’s a difference of opinion about what is important in life. So get off your high horse and recognize that there are valid options out there other than your own.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:19 am
I live in Prince George, BC Canada. We’re in a small city about an 8 hour drive north of Vancouver, and our cost of living is incredibly lower! It allows me to be a stay at home mum to our four, and to live in a much larger home, with lots of back garden for playing and growing fresh food. Even though we’re a bit away from it all here, the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages for us.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:35 am
I don’t know, J.D., Bend is so beautiful! It would be hard for me to make the move to Kansas (not that Kansas doesn’t have its’ share of nice areas).
March 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am
-when the government rewards people for starting a business and has less restrictions, people succeed…-
Well, um, you don’t really know that from this! He’s considering it and would have to determine if he really can do his job as well from there as his current home. Often those sorts of incentives are put in to attract people to an area that’s hurting in terms of having enough business/people or is having problems with businesses and people flowing out.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am
That was a happy calculator for us here in Pittsburgh. Only 4-5% higher than Salina Kansas AND we have all those things that people mentioned missing in smaller, more out of the way locations — museums, music, art, artists, stores, public transportation, accessible nature, universities, plenty of high-quality health care, etc.
March 14th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
JD:
If your brother can at all swing it, he might want to go on a trip to check out where he’s planning to relocate to in Kansas.
If it’s in or near Kansas City, then it will probably work out alright for him. If he’s looking at a more rural setting in the more western part of the state, he needs to factor in something important.
There’s no easy way to say this. In small town Kansas (small town heartland USA), he’s liable to encounter a certain — insularness of attitude. Meaning, less acceptance of outsiders or just anybody not living life the way “we do things around here”.
Which isn’t to say there aren’t nice people in Kansas. But he better be prepared that small-town Kansas won’t be Portland. If he’s conservative, church-going, your general white-bread married w/children type he should do fine (not to say everybody in Kansas is those things, but it’s more the norm) but if he’s at all used to an “anything goes” sort of place he needs to check out where he’d be living and make sure he’s ok with that.
We lived in Kansas for 3 years when I was young and I wouldn’t move there again for all the tea in China. I had occasion to drive through it a few years ago and that just reinforced my feeling that Kansas wasn’t the place for me. Kansas City is generally OK, but the rural parts — not for me.
My locale? Denver, CO
March 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
We actually considered a move from Las Vegas, NV (where the cost of living skyrocketed over the past few years) to Lincoln, NE where a friend of my husband’s had a potential job for him. Unfortunately, I literally started to hyperventilate at the thought of being so far from the Pacific. And my husband and I both have very large families that we would (mostly) miss. In the end, we decided to stay put for now as Lincoln didn’t feel like a good fit for us. The nice thing was it opened our eyes to the possibility of moving to a different pace of life. We are still thinking about ways to make our income less contingent on where we live and reducing expenses as much as possible. We’ll see how it goes!
March 14th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I think there’s also more to consider than just cost of living. What about job opportunities, changes to network? Environment? Entertainment? Things to do? etc etc.
March 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
It sounds like your brother needs to read our series: 25 ways to save money in small towns and rural areas: http://www.engineeradebtfreelife.com/2009/03/25-ways-to-save-money-and-bargain-shop_13.html
We moved from Dallas to rural Kansas, and the cost of living is NOT less in rural Kansas, no matter what any cost of living calculators may say. Housing is cheaper and daycare is cheaper, but there is tax on food, cars, state income tax, property tax on vehicles, lots of things that really add up. We were surprised to find out how expensive things really are here.
I’ve frequently been to these places mentioned in this post - Salina, Osage Co, Topeka, etc. If anyone wants more info about them, or what it’s like to live in Kansas, feel free to contact me.
The people are great, and small town life is wonderful. But lower cost of living? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, life is good in Kansas.
March 14th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
For those willing to handle the trade-offs, you can find a sort of sweet spot between cost of living and cultural opportunity. I (reluctantly) moved to St. Louis, MO from Chicago, IL almost four years ago, and while I do miss Chicago quite a bit, I will say there are a lot of amazing arts and cultural offerings in St. Louis — and cost of living is WAY less. People from big cities and/or the coast who assume that “flyerover country” is full of Wal-marts or something are missing out. In St. Louis we have amazing museums, music scenes, culinary options, and other things that I loved about larger urban life–without some of the hassles like bad traffic and high rents.
March 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
My family moved from the urban South to rural Colorado toward the end of the dotcom bust, when my husband had gone two years without steady work.
It’s… different. Lacks can also be opportunities. I got a job at the public library with exactly zero experience - something I could NEVER have done in the city - worked my way through my undergrad, and am getting ready to start grad school.
The town I live in is a mile and a half square; I walk everywhere.
There are lacking amenities, for certain. Getting involved in trying to bring some of them to town (my current project is a farmer’s market) have given me opportunities to make friends and participate in local politics. Others I just do without; there are fewer choices for fast food and cheap non-essentials, so less temptation to spend money on junk. (When I go into the local variety store, I may buy ONE thing I didn’t intend to buy when I walked in. Try that at Wal-mart!)
I live within a thirty-minute drive of three state parks, a national park, two national forests, and a handful of BLM recreation areas. The county just got a grant for developing nature trails and green corridors, so that’s coming in the next couple of years.
There are certainly things I miss terribly, and I’ve known people who moved here from urban areas and were utterly miserable. But there are advantages beyond the cost of living too, and some of the ones I treasure the most now are the ones I least would have anticipated.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I would lose so much by moving to Kansas that it wouldn’t be worth it, even for twice the money.
I currently live just outside of San Francisco. All my friends live here. My family lives about an hour’s drive away. Could I make new friends in Kansas? Sure, but being that I’m married and not going to school or something, it’d take a *lot* longer than it used to.
What about my family? My parents and brother, and my wife’s family are mostly located in California. My children (who I don’t yet have, but will) would grow up without knowing their grandparents or their aunts and uncles.
My wife’s sister moved to Arizona from California and has found that while a dollar *does* go farther there, it hasn’t helped. Her husband lost his job in Arizona, and if you’re out of work, it doesn’t matter where you are, you’re going to end up getting foreclosed on eventually. And on top of that, now she can’t do things like come to weddings and holidays and family events. She used to be able to drive to them, but she can’t afford to fly.
The weather would be horrible half the year. I’d be stuck inside all winter with no real ability to do anything outside. I couldn’t even go skiing, there aren’t any mountains in Kansas.
I’d save money on my boat, too, as there wouldn’t be much of a reason to keep a sailboat in Kansas. Surfing would be out, as well.
I’ve pretty much listed all my favorite things in the world here, and I would lose them all by moving somewhere like Kansas. The money would, by far, not be worth it. I’d rather live in a cheap apartment in a bad neighborhood here than a giant mansion in Kansas.
This isn’t meant to be a rail against Kansas, this is a warning against moving away from everything you love for financial gain, and that it might (very probably) not be worth it. If I currently lived in Kansas, and all my family and my wife’s family, and our friends were there, California wouldn’t seem worth moving to just for the nice weather, either.
March 14th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Jen @ 33
I am from Pittsburgh as well and will attest to its cultural and educational opportunities. What made me move was the lack of opportunity for career progression. I moved in 2005 to Dallas and traded a 10 percent COL increase for a 50 percent raise. The math just made too much sense. Yes I miss it every day and wish I was there right now but everyone’s individual situation needs to dictate where the end up. And besides I can always move back someday.
March 14th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Another thing to consider is the public schools, for those of you who have children. We bought in an affordable bedroom-community city in a mainly rural county - 60% of the public school children are on free/reduced lunch. My DH commutes and I work for the local G. 70% of the tax base for the county is agricultural.
Both our children are ESE Gifted, so the ‘rules’ don’t apply to us - we can attend any public school in the county (and even a few out of county), no waitlist, and we knew that when we moved here. The local private schools are a joke - only a GED is required of teachers - no certification, no CEUs. A hair dresser has more training than a private school teacher in our state. The private school nurse might be the only person in the building with a degree.
We get a lot of folks moving in from ‘up north’ and they buy without checking into the school system (crazy, right?). They freak out when they find out we don’t have neighborhood schools, that their children may be bused cross county to make the right mix and will not get into the IB program since they haven’t been on the waitlist since kindergarten.
March 14th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
So I have a few things to say. First of all, I don’t think J.D. is saying everyone should move to Kansas. There are pros and cons for everyone. If being near your family is important to you and they live in California, Kansas is not the place for you.
Secondly, let’s remember that Kansas is just an example of a place that has a lower cost of living that Bend. There are many states/cities that have lower costs of living than the NW.
Thirdly, I think those numbers may be a bit off as well. I would be very surprised if the average home in Topeka was $224,000. My guess is you could get a great house for much less than that.
And lastly, Kansas is not a horrible place to live. Would I move to Salina? No. Never. Would I live in Topeka again (where I grew up)? Only if it was the last possible option. But Lawrence? Hell, yeah. Its a great college town with lots of culture and a laid back vibe. I live in Kansas City now and I love it. There are great opportunities to be had in a city like KC (MO or KS side). Because the cost of living is low, my husband and I are able to own a beautiful old bungalow in Midtown and walk almost anywhere we want. I have a great yard, house and neighborhood and it is affordable. We have great restaurants, museums and the weather isn’t all that bad if you like experiencing all four of the seasons. All I am saying is don’t knock it, ’til you’ve tried it.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
We recently moved from Bend to Kansas. Part of our pull was because of some family ties in the Midwest. We spent a lot of money on plane tickets back to KS and Chicago.
Lawrence is the only town I’d want to live in here. We only need one car, since we both work in town. The University is great, with close proximity to major city/airport, & lots to do if you have kids. Housing is less expensive than Bend (or was…) and I can’t believe Topeka housing ave is $224K– you’d get a very high end place for that.
But man, do we ever talk about “someday” moving back to the PNW.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I call it geographic arbitrage, and it is THE reason that I moved to Oregon, from my beloved home in Los Angeles. I took a job I hate in small-town Oregon (but which takes little energy or brain power) for health insurance, and continue to pursue my “real” career, at Los Angeles rates, remotely from the Pacific Northwest. And my savings is now turbo-charged.
I won’t lie, though: if we get to the point where our retirement and college funds are completely funded? I think we would probably move back to the city.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Crosby, ND??? OMG I KNOW THAT TOWN! I know that guy in the article! Whoo!
I lived in Crosby for maybe two months in 2004 while in AmeriCorps*NCCC, a program that connects nonprofits with teams of trained volunteers. Our sponsor there was the Divide County Economic Council, who wanted our help with some beautification projects to prepare for the city’s centennial. I probably learned the most working that project, just from talking to everyone in the town about their economic situation. Crosby has a population of maybe 1000, mostly older people. All of the young people raised in Crosby move to larger towns for job prospects, leaving behind a growing retired community.
What can I say? Country living isn’t for everyone. Crosby’s big issue is that it’s not really on the way to anywhere; it’s tucked away on some random highway. The people there are wonderful, and everyone does know everyone, and houses are super cheap. But there aren’t really a lot of jobs. The type of person who would benefit is exactly what the article says…able to work remotely. J.D., you would actually do well there since you blog for a living, though Kris might go insane. Things seemed pretty dismal in 2004, and I can only imagine it’s gotten worse in the past couple years. Ideas like the free land thing sound tempting for frustrated urban dwellers, but you have to remember that rural areas have their own economic issues.
Though if I could work from home, I’d definitely consider it. What can I say, I loved the people. There’s a lot of community pride. If you go there you will definitely have some really sweet neighbors and people will leave cakes on your doorstep for no reason and you’ll meet a lot of Norweigans and have something called a “pitchfork fondue,” which is exactly what it sounds like. And though the fresh produce is lacking, you can get an ice cream “wizard,” which is like a blizzard. But better.
March 14th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
CoL is why my husband and I moved from the Chicago area to Omaha, NE last summer. Pros: Lower CoL, close enough to home to make visiting easier, lower unemployment rate, LOTS of Chicagoans living here. Cons: Higher taxes, lower wages, no real “flavor” here everything is middle America nothing really sets it apart or makes it unique, and we can’t get good pizza to save our lives.
March 14th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
There seems to be a subtle tone of contempt in this post and some of the comments for people living in the middle of the country. Believe it or not, we have plumbing, electric, internet service etc.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Well, I think your little brother has the right general idea. I’m always very disappointed with the view I often see about how the governments should ‘help out’ the local economy so folks don’t need to uproot. Fluidity is important.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Brother & Family could suffer some real culture shock, moving from Oregon (!!) to the flatlands.
Also, unless their $60,000 income is completely independent of where they live, they’ll find their paychecks shrink right along with the cost of living. So their dollars won’t buy them much more there than where they are now.
Are they too strapped to take a week or two of vacation? If they can, maybe they should consider going there and just sitting in the proposed village–look around, talk to folks, talk to real estate agents…think about whether they’d enjoy living there. If he travels a lot for his business, will she be content to hang around the place, just her & the kiddies? For some people, moving 1,000 miles away from friends and family is quite a serious matter. Another thing to consider is that moving itself is expensive — just to rent a U-Haul can cost a lot. Even if they can clear enough on the real estate transactions to get themselves back to Oregon, in the event that they don’t like it there they could find the cost of two cross-country moves prohibitive.
I was offered a tenure-track position (and, given my publications and teaching record, a promise of tenure within three years) in South Carolina. As long as I’ve lived in the United States (all of my adult life), I’ve been in the American Southwest; my parents came from California. This “step up” in my career would have entailed an $8,000-plus cut in salary; but for a fraction of what my rather ordinary house in Arizona would have brought, I could have bought a beautiful house in the woods with a stream burbling through the property.
However, at the time the citizens there were busying themselves with defending their right to fly the Confederate flag over their state capitol. Three moving companies each gave estimates of $6,000 to haul my furniture across the country; the college was offering a $2,000 moving allowance. One-way… All my friends were here; my son was relatively nearby in San Francisco. The potential culture shock, the large cut in pay, and the prospect of having to pony up $4,000 out of pocket in moving expenses (or as much as $10,000 if I hated it there and wanted to move back!) led me to turn the offer down.
Does Money Magazine still do its annual survey of desirable places to live? I think AARP does a yearly round-up of ideal retirement towns, many of which could be fine places for younger people, too. If he wants to move to where the cost of living is lower, maybe he & his wife could find a place that’s more compatible with what they’re used to.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I moved from small town Ohio to just outside LA. I know that what I pay in rent for a teeny-tiny one bedroom apt is almost more than my parents’ mortgage was. I know full well I’m paying a high price to live within walking distance of the ocean, and I wouldn’t change a thing! I like that there are 3 malls within ten minutes drive, rather than 1 mall half an hour away. I LOVE the tiny hole-in-the-wall restaurants and the fact that there isn’t an Applebees within 30 miles.
I wouldn’t raise a family here, but for a girl in her 20s, it’s perfect.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Beth #39 –
Sounds like you made a good move. Is there a grad school nearby that you are going to go to? I’ve found, so far, that the opportunity to pursue my education farther would be extremely limited in the rural areas I would like (generally near mountains).
March 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Hi Ash,
Perhaps you should get off your high horse long enough to actually read my comment. I’m not saying that everyone should live in expensive or urban settings. Nor am I saying there’s anything wrong with living in small towns, places with gardens, etc. I’m saying that people shouldn’t prioritize stuff, mcmansions, etc over living where they actually want to live (and all of the other non-economic benefits like family, friends, etc). So, if I were living in a small town and liked that small town, I would choose to scale down my life and stay there rather than make a choice to move to an urban area where wages were higher if I were in a financial pinch.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
J.D. I know you were jokingly asking your wife about NW North Dakota - but in the rare case that you would actually consider it, let me share my thoughts.
I currently live in North Dakota (grew up in Minnesota) and I lived in Oregon for a year and loved it. Trust me when I say you do NOT want to live in North Dakota.
Commenter 12 makes a very good point.
It might be easier to get a job in North Dakota than it is in Oregon, but there’s a reason people don’t move here… there’s nothing here. And during the 4-5 months of winter it’s freezing cold, dreadful, and miserable.
Several years ago Maxim Magazine ran two hilarious advertisements - one for South Dakota and one for North Dakota - I scanned the North Dakota ad back then and just added to flickr for you all to enjoy.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
J.D., I think you, your brother and other family members should get together and brainstorm a way to keep him in Bend. Caretakers for a couple years, etc. He’s probably just depressed from the situation.
I’ve been to Pittsburgh, Baltimore, D.C. and personally wouldn’t move to a city to save my soul.
The PNW is at the top of my list when we retire and travel.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
We have almost the opposite problem but just as frustrating. We live in the PNW now (Portland area) and want to own our own land to have a hobby farm on. Unfortunately land costs are so high and our salaries low that the dream is completely unreachable. We could move to Kansas or another area where land is cheaper but that would take us away from all we love here. So we are stuck with the circular question of how to stay here and see our dreams come to fruition. No idea!
March 14th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I moved from Eugene to a small town an hour outside of Madison, WI. A few things I noticed - small town life isn’t really that different. Housing prices are lower here, but property taxes are much higher. Gas is typically cheaper, as is milk, but vegetables and fruits tend to be much more than my family back in Oregon pays. Sometimes I miss the Pacific, but Lake Michigan is quite impressive in it’s own right.
I initially moved here for grad school. I spent over $80,000 less, compared to San Francisco (my other option). Plus, I actually get to see four full seasons, something I have come to enjoy more than I thought I would.
Obviously life in the Midwest isn’t for everyone. But that can be said of just about anywhere in the world. Lack of “culture” is partly your opinion on what that word means. Life is pretty good here, and I wouldn’t go back to Eugene for twice my salary.
My town is small, but we have networking (Town Meetings, cookouts, sports, festivals), entertainment within 10 minutes (Water parks, Comedy Clubs, and great restaurants), and good schools.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
I may just pack up and move to Kansas as a retirement option but it is just too much of a hassle right now, in terms of my job travelling time and losing contact with close friends.
However, if I am struggling with foreclosures and high cost of living, this relocation idea is worth a shot. All things being equal (especially same pay), I will take the significant savings any day.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
You could do what we ended up doing. People ask us how we ended up living in Costa Rica. We tell them we kept moving South from Flagstaff Arizona until we found a place we could afford to buy a house and eat!
March 14th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
I grew up in a smaller town and now live in Chicago. My income is three times what it would be in a smaller town and my cost of living is not three times as high, so I save a lot. A lot of cost of living is what you make it. I have tiny cheap ethnic grocery stores to shop at, I have free parks to explore, I have museums with free days. My mortgage is more, absolutely, but everything else is not. And my income is definitely more.
Someday, perhaps, we’ll return to a smaller town, but I’m making my money in the big city first.
March 14th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
@jasondtaylor.
I live in Bend, my wife has family in KS. Hmmmm, this definately gives some food for thought.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Yes, money magazine does still publish a list of best places to live.
See http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2008/top100/ for their ranking of best small cities last year. One of the interesting things about their data is they show both median income as well as the purchasing power of that income (cost of living adjusted). They also show median commute times, number of libraries within 15 miles, etc.
March 15th, 2009 at 1:35 am
I generally agree with the tone of some of the comments. I moved from Missouri to the Seattle area last year. Cost of living is lower in the Midwest but it’s difficult to find a high paying job. Alot of Midwest natives (younger people) move to big cities, accumulate some years of work experience and then come back to the Midwest to take higher-level positions at companies where you can make better money then. Here in Seattle a decent house and some land will cost you half a million or more… and yet, you can advance your career so much more, so it’s a tradeoff. I personally endorse the “retire to the Midwest” thing, a lot of Cali folks were doing that when I was living in Missouri, and there’s plenty of arts and culture if you choose the right place (i.e. not really those places in Kansas which are REALLY remote, but slightly larger cities like say, Wichita, Topeka, Manhattan KS, Columbia MO and others).
March 15th, 2009 at 7:12 am
We were both born and raised in Seattle, currently living in a very expensive suburb in a tiny duplex with a tiny yard, which we hate. I would LOVE to live in a small town in a different part of the country. Yes, this area is beautiful, blah blah blah. We don’t hike. We don’t ski. We don’t boat. We don’t work for Microsoft. I am sadly addicted to shows like “House Hunters” on HGTV and it blows my mind to see the home prices in other areas. I don’t want anything fancy, no McMansion, but just to have a “real” home with a big yard sounds so appealing. We are homeschoolers so I don’t care about the school system. And we would LOVE LOVE LOVE to move away from our mean, unhelpful and selfish relatives, parents included. Those of you out there with families you don’t want to move far from—you are blessed. Stay in place and enjoy your family, even if it costs more. We have family 20 minutes away but it means nothing to us. What’s stopping us from moving, under these circumstances? My husband has worked for the same company for 22 years, it is a local company with no locations outside this area, and for some reason he is absurdly loyal to them—to the detriment of his family’s well-being.
March 15th, 2009 at 8:56 am
J.D.,
I really think that this is a really good concept, however, Kansas isn’t the only cheap option. I plugged in my locale (Cincinnati, Ohio) and it’s pretty much the same as Kansas (!) Also, the prices are really high — my rent is $375/month. I really recommend the area for families, it has a vibrant arts scene, the second best parks system in the country, one of the 10 public high schools, and it’s on the river. And politically it’s fairly mixed so it wouldn’t be so much of a culture shock.
March 15th, 2009 at 9:19 am
This debate is a fascinating one. It takes a critical personal finance decision (where to live, what you can earn there, and cost of living) and juxtaposes it with the Your Money or Your Life dilemma. (WHY you try to earn/save/invest in the first place)
Most of the answers above fall along addressing one of these two in a larger way than the other. How much do you focus on the WHY? How much on the pure finances? How location-dependent is the satisfaction derived from the “WHY” part for you? Answer those, and to move or not to move becomes clear.
As for me, I couldn’t move to Kansas. I need to fly to see my family on the east coast, who I do love and care about, and Kansas has no major airport. My industry is tied to major metropolitan areas with considerable traffic congestion.
I live in a place where I have considerable cultural options that I could not find in Kansas. I play in a band on the coffeehouse circuit. I love walkable neighborhoods, and I like the reduced oil dependence of taking public transportation rather than driving, and it also saves me money.
I can’t get that in Kansas. I can’t get that in a lot of places outside major US metro areas.
I might have a few more bucks living in Kansas, but it would be bad for my soul. The financial security will come in time. In the meantime, I’ll gladly take smaller savings for a richer life.
I recognize that my cup of tea is also not everyone else’s. For many people, going to Kansas may be a financial improvement AND a validation of their desired lifestyle.
March 15th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Disclaimer: I live in Kansas City
There are a lot of great reasons to live in Kansas. While far from being a hub of culture, I can vouch for the quality of life. Many of my contemporaries in more metropolitan locales see my home and are aghast at how little I pay. If you live in Johnson County, KS the schools are phenomenal and the communities are typical midwestern and safe (as you would expect).
Everything is as you would expect in a medium sized metro area. There are opportunities to be involved with theatre, art, music, sports, everything you would expect, but you may have to look a little harder to find the community for your particular interest.
I probably wouldn’t want to live in Salina, just because of the distance from a reasonable airport, but living in the suburbs of KC puts my home 30min from the airport, 15min from the office.
The KS stereotypes (bible-thumping fanatics, cultural wasteland, …) are typically true of central-western KS, but living in KC is actually quite a bit different.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:14 am
A few things to note:
1. I doubt my brother will move to Kansas.
2. When I speak of Kansas and North Dakota in my case, those are only hypotheticals. I do like the idea of moving to someplace with a lower cost of living, but these are only examples, and not meant to be indicative of serious consideration.
3. I’m not dissing the Heartland, and neither is Kris. Kris doesn’t like to be cold, which is the reason she gave me The Look.
I love this conversation.
March 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I currently live in Austin, TX, a pretty hip place to be by national opinion. Strangely, most people I know who never have been to KC always think that Austin is more urban than KC, but anyone with access to Google can easily find out that’s not the case. On paper Austin has a larger population, but that’s because of square footage not population density. Just compare the downtown skylines. Austin doesn’t have a zoo, a sanctuary but not an accredited zoo. Culturely it’s lags as well in the number of museums and what not. More big name acts go through KC than Austin, Ticketmaster can confirm that. I could go on quite longer having carefully weighed the pros and cons.
Why am I still living in Austin? Because it has what I currently want out of life which is primarily a volatile tech sector. The KC tech sector is a bit too stable for my current tastes, less opportunities to move around and up. Though, I’m big on cultural stuff, Austin is getting better; furthermore, I don’t mind traveling to satiate my needs for art exhibits and the like.
Now I do agree with a lot that has been said in the comments. It’s definitely more than cost of living and as J.D. pointed out this is just one hypothetical point. Some mention beauty. Well for me since I spent a good chunk growing up in Kansas, a rolling sea of wheat as far as the eye could see either at dawn or sunset is something truly majestic. I don’t really care about huge forests or towering peaks, they’re pretty, but they hold no nostalgia for me.
Curious? You can find some quick facts between an Austin and KC metro suburb on Money’s Best Places to Live for 2008: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2008/ Round Rock, TX and Overland Park, KS
I lived in O.P. KS, which was ranked 9th 2008 and 6th in 2006. You can only go back as far as 2005, so I can’t verify what other years it’s been in the top 10. Other repeats I do remember seeing on the list over the decades: Naperville, IL, Fort Collins, CO, and Columbia/Elliot City, MD.
BTW, I’m of Asian descent and I’m agnostic and I think most of the stereotypes don’t hold true when compared to places that don’t have that stereotype, especially in terms of culture and religion. There isn’t an appreciable difference in the number of fanatics running around KS in relations to other states. Now rural areas do tend to be more “conservative”, but that’s not limited to KS, but to rural America in general. If KS were as the stereotypes would infer shouldn’t we be hearing about raids on compounds in KS rather than Montana and Texas? Or does that mean we have bible-thumping raving lunatics in those states in comparison.
I really like the comment stating that there’s no major airports in Kansas, and they’re absolutely right. Kansas City International Airport (MCI) is on the Missouri side of the metro area and since it’s a medium sized airport it might not fall into the category of “major”. Actually, it’s hard to tell what people are trying to compare with words such as “large” or “major”. KC metro is near 2 million. Is that large medium or small.
Finally, cultural wasteland. Sure if we consider it by density over the entire state I could see that. With a few exceptions most states could be viewed as a cultural wasteland as well. If culture is live music almost every metro with 1+ million (I’m making a very conservative guess) will have enough venues and coffee houses. Heck even national headliners will make a stop. Frankly, one of the best places to go to a headliner concert is Lawrence, KS since you aren’t going to be over paying for seats in some huge stadium, but lower priced tickets to a small concert hall or similar sized venue.
On the whole, I like most parts of America, from coast to coast. I just felt I needed to chime in after seeing what I felt were blatantly ignorant remarks, especially, if they can google things so easily this day and age.
March 15th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
As someone who moved from a very low cost-of-living area (Oklahoma) to a very high (D.C.), I’ll tell you that your brother would save money on some things (especially housing) but not on others (transportation for instance - my husband and I don’t own a car now, but would need two in Oklahoma). Since it sounds like all your family is in Oregon, it’s also worth considering how much time and money they would want to spend coming home - my husband loves to tease me that it’s easier, cheaper and shorter to go to London than Oklahoma from where we live. It’s worth running the number very closely.
Outside of finances, there are real cultural differences. It is absolutely untrue that the “Heartland” lacks culture and all diversity, but most places are different than large cities (and the South is different than Northern areas). It depends on what is important to you - how important is it to be where your family has been for generations? How important is your church, because in the Midwest, that’s frequently your “third place” by default?
Maybe they should try somewhere closer - Idaho? Montana???
March 15th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Don’t forget to factor in state income taxes. When I moved from CA to NV, making the same salary, it was nearly a 10% pay raise just by not paying CA state income tax. Other factors made the cost of living even cheaper. When we left NV, we made it a point to only consider states with no income tax. It’s surprising how much of a difference that makes.
March 16th, 2009 at 7:33 am
This is a fascinating conversation. I should probably admit that I am a native Kansan currently tolerating life in Missouri for the remainder of my teaching career.
I wonder though, are these cost of living estimates based on dramatic averages? Are there more affordable places to live in Oregon?
I grew up in suburban KC where I noticed a significantly higher cost of living than I experience living just 45 minutes from the KC metro. Oddly enough, I work in a suburban school that pays better but live in a small town that is about an equal distance from my employer as my employer is from the city.
My house is cheaper, child care is cheaper, health care isn’t as modern (you have to drive up to the city for the fancy stuff!) but I can get in to see my doctor or dentist before lunch today if I need to. Food is slightly more expensive and there is less competition and thus a higher mark-up on retail in general. You can avoid that by driving to the city if it makes enough of a difference though.
All in all, you can save some money by carefully choosing where you live. You still need to feel at home though and that needs to factor into the equation somehow. How much it’s worth probably depends on the individual more than anything. For me, family keeps me in the midwest. My comfort zone keeps me out of the city (or out of the nation’s bigger cities–except as a tourist). I alleviate the additional costs of rural life with a garden and the farmer’s market, by carefully planning trips to the city, and by finding hobbies that fit my chosen home.
I do find Kansas to be beautiful. On a taller hill (we don’t have actual mountains) at the right time of day you can see rolling grasslands that gently disappear into the horizon. They are breathtaking. Fields of wheat and wild sunflowers too.
I also don’t like the quantification of culture. Culture is present in the same amount everywhere. Only diversity and type differ. I’ve been to places on the east and west coasts where the culture overwhelmed my midwestern values and mores to the point that I would probably choose not to go back. I always tell my kids that people who think they have more culture really just believe they have better culture (which is a very closed minded attitude).
March 16th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I first jumped state when I was 12. Up until then we lived in the midwest but my mom couldn’t find a job so we moved out to rural NV (near Elko, about half way between Reno and SLC). I went to college in Reno and then my husband and I had the choice between El Segundo, CA and Albuqueruque, NM. We did the CoL comparisons and decided ABQ was better financially as well as fit us socially.
Every couple years we evaluate potentially moving (right now I think our next stop will be ID), but talking to others and how static their lives are always surprises me.
It takes a specific kind of person to consider moving outside of their comfort zone. I’m always perplexed when I hear the sob stories coming out of MI or other areas about how there aren’t any jobs. Because the answer seems clear to me: MOVE.
I have to laugh at the snobbishness of some posts saying they could never move to a rural community. They can be closed, but they can be very open and welcoming. Each location has their own flavor. The most closed community I lived in what a small town. The most open was as well.
And I can safely say that my skin would crawl if I moved back to a city (I live outside ABQ now). I don’t want too many people too close. If you’re within 10 yards of my house you have business with me, and I like that. Give me satellite TV, high speed internet, Netflix, and enough room to do projects and keep myself busy and I have all the culture I need. As long as there is a city within a day’s drive that I can supply myself once per month or so and I’m good. I already do 90% of my non-food shopping online anyway.
All of that is just me, and I realize that. I know a lot of you would go as crazy living my life as I would living yours. But the original point is a very very good one, not just from a CoL standpoint, but from every standpoint. I lose a lot of respect for people who won’t consider moving for the good of their family. If you can make a living and make your bills then the decision is yours. But if you CAN’T, things that add no value (i.e. family, culture, etc) come WAY behind putting food on the table. Sometimes family does add value (child care, free place to stay). But if you have to move to support your family, then you have to move. And at that point keep an open mind and make your own happiness, even if it’s not your first choice of where you want to be.
March 16th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Funny to read about all these folks pining for the Pacific Northwest. We escaped that place many years ago for greener (dryer?) pastures in AZ. Never looked back.
We were able to get a much nicer home for much less $ and our jobs were completely transferable (including the same pay!). I know that’s not true for many folks, but for us it was a no-brainer. We couldn’t be happier here in the desert. 
It really does depend on what your situation is and what type of lifestyle you’re looking for. We love the 300+ days of sunshine and abundant outdoor activities (even in the heat - there are lakes!)
We don’t mind the cookie cutter strip malls and lack of “culture”. Growing up around “culture” my whole life, I find it is highly subsidized by the taxpayers, and rarely interests me anymore. Our kids learn more by going hiking in the mountains than they would by looking at “art.” But that’s just what works for us…
March 16th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
What I find weird is that the Washington, DC metro area does not appear to be on the list. I looked for District of Columbia, and I looked for Washington, DC. Hagerstown/Martinsburg, WV doesn’t work for us, because our COL and salaries are in alignment with DC. Same thing with Baltimore/Towson. I was unable to do any calculating for us.
Jen M.
March 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I don’t live in Kansas (did for the first 21 years of my life), but it is exactly like every other state in the country, in that some parts of it suck and some parts of it are great. I think its hilarious when people (like some commenters here) generalize an entire state, as if every city or area within it is the exact same.
Oh, and somebody even mentioned something about not even having a major airport. Are you kidding me? The KC airport is a gem. It is the fastest airport to ever get in and out of, and the prices are cheap because it is not a hub for anyone. I don’t live in KC, but the airport would be a huge benefit if I was a frequent traveller.
Your brother should go visit and see if he likes it. Although I will warn him that if all he sees is Topeka, then he will think Kansas sucks
March 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Disclaimer: I live in Lawrence KS.
When considering a move like that, I think it’s really important to know what you’re moving into. There’s a big difference between living in Salina or Western Kansas and living in Eastern Kansas.
If you’re looking for anything remotely similar to the culture of Portland/northwest, I’d strongly recommend either Lawrence or Kansas City. Lawrence is a college town that has a great downtown / music / art / local food / college sports. In 2004, Lawrence’s county was the only one to vote democratic. In 2008, one of the KC counties joined us….
If 90k people is too small for you, I’d consider living in KC where there will be many more options of places to eat and larger venues for concerts/activities.
Like everyone else said, this isn’t just about Kansas though. I guess my point is that no matter where you look into moving, you should do some research and talk to the people who live there to find something that fits your needs.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Another interesting discussion! I’m with the “keep him in Oregon” group. Community (business colleagues, fellow hobbyists, family, friends & neighbors) and opportunity (cultural, financial, personal, educational) are pretty strong reasons for staying or going in any one place, but they all ought to be considered.
Cost of living adjustments can be made without moving from a coast to the heartland. Moving to a smaller town in an expensive state may be a better choice than moving to a same-size town in a less expensive state. To me, Paso Robles is higher value than Anaheim.
Just my two cents.
March 16th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
I live in Kansas, Wichita to be more precise. The nice thing about relocating and given his business, Wichita is pretty good. Kansas City has a much higher cost of living. Its skewed by the fact that downtown is pricey, and the suburbs are cheap, but rush hour is absurd. You don’t want Topeka, its a far cry from anything resembling society, and its farther from the airport. Based on his work, I would think that would be important.
I bought a home in Wichita right out of school. I got an FHA loan and put my little money down. I live comfortably, by myself in a great home. I have plenty of space, and can ride my bike downtown to work/market/art galleries (Which are all open free on the last Friday of the month, btw)
All I can say is that I enjoy Kansas and you shouldn’t knock it until you try it. There are plenty of things offered here that other cities can’t. There are certain amenities that it doesn’t have. Just a few thoughts.
March 16th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
It totally makes sense that there would be a reverse migration across the states–California and the rest of the west has become so overcrowded and expensive in recent years–this “Depression”’s promised land is the heartland, whereas it was California during the last one.
March 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
“when the government rewards people for starting a business and has less restrictions, people succeed…”
I have never understood why it’s a bad thing to turn to the government for help when the alternative is starving or living in a slum or going without medical care, but it’s a good thing for the government to pay you for starting a business. I thought customers were supposed to do that. I also thought success was supposed to be a reward for personal effort. Maybe I was wrong.
That said… changing the subject…
In the ten years since I left my then-husband I’ve been fairly mobile. I have been accused of being unstable because of this but the reality is, I spent most of my savings trying to save my marital finances and I was literally starting over with nothing. So I was torn between staying with my dad or other family members for free but not being able to find work, and going to the city to find work but barely being able to afford a place to live.
Presently I am living in a forty-unit apartment building with no yard and a four-year-old who gets ants in her pants. Thank goodness spring is just about here. And yet we have to walk down the street a few blocks to the playground before she can properly “go out and play” because there is no yard and furthermore, I don’t know anyone around here and can’t run right outside if she gets into trouble. (People think parents don’t let their kids play outside because we’re overprotective. No, we don’t let them play outside sometimes because we don’t want them turning up missing or dead. This is reality in a city, if you’re not in the ‘burbs.)
So I’ve been thinking hard about lower cost of living and being able to kick my daughter outside to play with the neighborhood kids if we were to go back down and stay with my dad again. But then I would be trapped yet again out in the boonies with no car, at least until I learn to drive a standard, since that’s what Dad’s truck has for a transmission. I would learn to do that before I would have the money to buy a vehicle. At least here we have the bus, if my little girl’s dad can’t drive us somewhere.
I can say this much, though: it’s not worth basing your decision on being a snob. “Culture” doesn’t mean museums and movies and art no matter how much we insist they do; it means interacting with other human beings. Most human interaction in a city is centered around consumption. In the country, people genuinely want to know about you and be around you on personal terms. It makes sense when you consider that cities were invented for the purpose of facilitating commerce in the first place.
I would trade any number of museums and ethnic restaurants to have been able to attend my hometown’s Mardi Gras celebrations even once. I’ve certainly missed out on relationships with my family. I guess it’s been worth being able to survive this long, though…?
March 17th, 2009 at 1:13 am
Imagine that… when the government rewards people for starting a business and has less restrictions, people succeed…
I’m sure that explains why a state like California has a larger and more robust economy than states like, say, Alabama.
A company’s or small business owner’s success hinges on much more than tax burdens or government restrictions. If Kansas doesn’t offer a well-educated workforce, or a large enough workforce considering the state is less populated, if Kansas doesn’t offer enough customers for a specific product, if Kansas doesn’t offer the type of infrastructure that a specific business needs, then no amount of cutting back taxes or government regulations will draw business to that state.
Just for the record, I’m not specifically stating that Kansas does or does not have these things. I’m simply making the point that eliminating taxes and regulations don’t magically make people succeed. Those taxes and regulations are just as capable, or possibly more capable, of creating a healthy business environment.
March 17th, 2009 at 2:43 am
Your brother could find the same reduction in cost of living without leaving Oregon. What about Klamath Falls, Grants Pass, Cave Junction, Oakridge?
March 17th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Good post. The thing I try to remember is that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence . . . uprooting is a big decision for anybody. I wouldn’t recommend that your brother do that too quick.
As for The Look– JD, I get that almost weekly and I get The Eyeroll on a daily basis . . . you get used to it!
March 17th, 2009 at 10:02 am
I’d have to rule those 2 states out simply becus i’d be terrified of a tornado completely wiping me out.
March 17th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
As my name implies, I live in KC (on the Missouri side). Born and raised in Wichita, Kansas, went to college at the University of Kansas in Lawrence. Lived in Italy for six months, was bitten by the travel bug, and have used the ole passport extensively ever since. My two cents:
I always thought I would move away from the Midwest after college. Then I started interviewing for jobs and changed my mind. I figured my choices were to 1. Live someplace with ‘a lot going on’ and not be able to afford to leave or 2. Live in a place like KC and be able to afford to travel extensively.
My starting salary coming out of state school (undergrad in accounting) was $45,000 in 2006, with my then-boyfriend I bought a two bedroom 1,100 sf condo in the ‘cool’ part of town (the Plaza) for $142,000. We have one car, and have two grocery stores within walking distance- one of which is a Whole Foods. We go to the symphony, the ballet, have seen national tours of Wicked and other major shows, go to large concerts, and can afford to go out to eat and hit up happy hours every week. KC has a great LGBT scene with a dedicated LGBT theater, great clubs and bars, and a very active chapter of the HRC and LGBTCC. The stereotype of crazed conservative Christians in this part of the country just isn’t true.
We make travel a priority- spent three weeks in Europe last August, are going to sail the B.V.I.s in June. With its constant wind Kansas actually has a couple of the best sailing venues in the WORLD- I sail competitively and have held my own in regattas in places like Oregon, for example
This part of the country has a lot to offer! I’m not saying I’ll be here forever because I won’t, but there’s nowhere else in the U.S. I would choose to live. We’ll likely be relocating overseas for my now husband to attend an international MBA program, but after we’re done playing in Asia we’ll likely come back here to raise our family. It’s truly a great place to live REGARDLESS of the low COL.
March 17th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
It sounds great in theory and financially could make a huge difference, but that is a difficult decision especially if you are from a bigger city. Being from NY, I could never see myself taking that type of move. I am in DC now and think it’s too small for me.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I’ve lived in NYC, Seattle, Chicago, and Chapel Hill, NC–and now I live in St. Louis, and it is the cheapest *and* the best place I’ve ever lived. Sometimes you don’t have to compromise. I encourage folks to look beyond the expensive trendy places–You’ll be glad you did.
March 20th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Have him move back to the Portland house.
I assume it is still on the market?
March 20th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
I live in Vancouver, Canada and it’s just getting so expensive especially with the Olympics fast approaching.
I’ve often considered leaving, but my family is here, so I stay … for now.
March 20th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
As AppleMan Said, Taxes are not noted here. Esp real estate taxes, which are huge in the NE. Whilst your COL for a basket of goods or for the list price of a house may be gobs lower, check what you’ll be paying to the gubmint before you get to start shopping for that basket.
March 20th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I was recently visiting my parents in my hometown of Newton, KS. My first thought looking out the window after waking up the morning after flying in was, “What’s wrong with the grass?! It’s all brown!” The grass is greener in Portland, both figuratively AND literally for me! =)
The responses this post have generated have been interesting because readers have revealed their values for location. Very few of them seem to be cost of living dependent! While cost of living was one factor in my decision to move to Portland, it was a small one.
I love Kansas and wouldn’t mind living in my hometown. But I much prefer the opportunities (art, nature, dining, international, etc), values (community, eco-friendly, social/government, public transportation, etc) and all-round atmosphere Portland offers. These reasons are worth far more to me than the very slightly higher than national average cost of living.
Cost of living is also a general tool, not a specific one. Many people, especially those who adhere to a lot of principles espoused in GRS, will find their cost of living needs differ dramatically than the average.
For example, I don’t own a car. I walk/bike/scooter wherever I need to go; population density and mixed zoning was one of my main factors in choosing Portland. My transportation costs, one of the main variables in most CoL equations, is incredibly less than it would be in Kansas, or most anywhere in the Midwest, where you MUST own a car to survive.
I highly recommend this tool if you’re looking to move:
http://www.findyourspot.com/
It allows for numerous variables people often overlook when deciding where to move. AND it allows you to rate their importance. It’s how I settled on Portland when it consistently came out on top for me in all the areas most important to me.
I will admit cost of living WAS important in one respect: San Francisco was initially my first choice. But what it offered was NOT worth the obscene cost of living there.
September 28th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Rooster Teacher made an interesting point about culture: it “is present in the same amount everywhere. Only diversity and type differ…people who think they have more culture really just believe they have better culture.”
Having lived in very rural areas, small cities, resort towns, and big cities, I believe when most people refer to the lack of ‘culture’ in rural or small town areas, they are referring to a lack of diversity in culture. I currently live in San Diego (a beautiful place!), and it is extremely diverse. You could probably find any culture you wanted here, ultra-conservative religious folks, nomadic surfers, hard core punk rockers, corporate loving business people, wealthy fashionistas, freegans.
I could live in the tiniest town and find it full of culture, if its activities and people were a good fit for me and my family.
Just my two cents.