I’m in the process of consolidating all of my investment accounts at Fidelity. This isn’t because I think Fidelity is “the best”, but because I think they’re good and they’re certainly convenient. There’s a Fidelity “investor center” not far from my home. (In other words: I’m not endorsing Fidelity; I’m merely following my own advice to pick a good option instead of spending forever looking for the best.)
As I gather my various accounts under one roof, I’m also trying to set investment goals and to implement an asset allocation based on these goals. As I do this, though, I’m struggling with some emotional stuff. I’ve found that it’s one thing to write about smart investing, but it’s another thing to actually do it.
I’ve just learned a real-life lesson about market timing, for example. In general, short-term market timing doesn’t work — especially for amateur investors. If I asked you to tell me whether the stock market (or an individual stock) will rise or fall next Monday, you’d only be guessing. Investors shouldn’t make decisions based on guesses. Or wishful thinking.
Let me give you an example. I recently decided to sell a large stake in an S&P 500 index fund. In order to get my asset allocation correct, I wanted to transfer the money to bonds. But when it actually came time to sell the mutual fund, I couldn’t pull the trigger.
“What if it goes up?” I kept thinking. The market has been climbing over the past few months, and the fund was up 35% since March. 35%!! That’s a pretty good increase, but I wanted more. “Maybe I should wait until the market goes up another three or four percent,” I thought.
I held the index fund for an extra day. Then two. Then three. Each day, the market went down — and my fund followed with it.
“Ouch,” I thought. “I should have sold!” My fund had dropped 5% from the day I first decided to make the move. ”I guess I’d better just sell. Now I’m losing money that I could have safely on the bond side of my portfolio.”
So I sold.
That was early this week. As soon as I sold, the the market began to rise again. Up half a percent on one day, and the next, and then two percent yesterday.
“Holy cats!” I thought. “It’s up three percent since I sold it. I should have held on!”
This, my friends, is the problem with market timing. You can’t know what the market is going to do from day-to-day. Over the long term, the stock market has returned an average of about 10% per year. But that’s the long term. Over shorter spans, the market is volatile. It swings up and down. Over a period of days, its movements are basically random, unpredictable.
I made the decision to sell on June 12th, but I didn’t pull the trigger until June 22nd. In those ten days, my fund lost over 5% of its value. Now, in the three days since I’ve sold the fund, it’s risen 3%. Obviously, I managed to just about nail a worst-case scenario.
Market timing doesn’t always yield such poor results. But, in general, you’re better off basing decisions on your long-term goals and the market’s broad performance instead of trying to guess what your stock or mutual fund will do tomorrow.
This article is about Investing, Real-Life Friday, 26th June 2009 (by J.D. Roth)


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June 26th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Here is another view on market timing. Long term buy and hold is still bad advice.
I also wouldn’t expect to make 10% from the stock market.
June 26th, 2009 at 5:55 am
I’m exactly the same way.
I think the trick is to make the move and don’t analyze the other options after the fact. Exactly how to do this? I’m not sure.
June 26th, 2009 at 5:56 am
A good lesson to take out of this is that most of us are not day traders. The best thing to do is just call the company and say I want to transer $xxx into this fund. You shouldn’t even look at the price of the fund or what the market is doing that day. You just need to buckle down and say “I am in this for the long run”.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:00 am
I noticed you added “especially for amateur investors” to your statement that short-term timing doesn’t work.
I’d argue that no such qualification is necessary. I have yet to see evidence of any professional investor with a long-term track record of successful short-term market timing.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:18 am
I love the insight and had a similar experience this past fall. My wife and I bought our first home in November 2008 and decided to withdraw some funds from a ROTH IRA to use towards our downpayment. I had been watching the markets during the month of September trying to “pull the trigger” and sell. Finally on September 29th when the DJIA dropped 733 points (largest single day point loss in history) I decided I would cut my losses and sell. So I called up Fidelity and told them to sell my shares. Thankfully they did not sell until close of business on September 30th, and the DJIA had risen 485 points. I came out okay by only losing a few hundred dollars, but the acid that formed in my stomach that day as I watched my downpayment dwindle away will not be quickly forgotten. I have become a staunch proponent of the buy and hold philosophy. I would live a short life wrought with ulcers trying to day trade and time the market!!
June 26th, 2009 at 6:19 am
I agree with Adam (#3) that the best thing to do is just move the money without looking at the price on a given day. If my goal is to re-balance my assets, I have to force myself to stick to that goal and not become distracted by the numbers.
J.D. makes an excellent point that this is MUCH easier said than done. It’s hard not to look and even harder not to try to predict the numbers.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:29 am
@ObliviousInvestor –
Whereas I can see that being true, I think one important difference between an amateur investor and someone who does it for a living is the fact that the “professional” expects all of the swings. He knows that if he makes 10 ST investments, he may lose on 5 of them and gain on the other 5. The amateur investor might not have the right expectations.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:34 am
You can dollar cost average your sales / transfers as well. This is especially useful with no load / no fee mutual funds.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:34 am
@MLR
That’s a good point.
Still, just because professionals expect the swings doesn’t mean they have any ability to predict which way they’ll go.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:36 am
JD, my experience has been similar to yours on timing. I used to think it was my bad luck, but as you get older and compare notes with others the truth becomes clear.
I’m with Obliviousinvestor (#4) on this. Market timing and day trading are different editions of the get-rich-quick schemes proliferating on TV infomercials. If it’s so easy and so sure how come everyone isn’t doing it? Do you know anyone who does it successfully year after year? I sure don’t.
In order to be a successful market timer you’d have to have access to more insider information about more companies than the law would allow you to have on any one of them! I don’t think it’s doable.
Absent that information, the only way to handle the timing issue in a reasonably intelligent manner, if it can even be handled, is to be totally dispassionate about it. And not only towards the timing, but toward the market in general. Most of us can’t do that, certainly not me.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Actually market timing is not about predicting whether Dow Jones would close up or down tomorrow. It’s about having a plan and sticking to it. I would say that Buffett is a market timer, only that his timeframe is years or decades and not seconds ( or nanosecond for daytraders).
There are people who consistently make money in the markets.. Hedge fund managers such as George Soros are an example of that.
For most investors however a buy and hold, diversified, dividend reinvestment type of strategy is the one to go.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:46 am
Two suggestion-1) I try and rebalance with new contributions not by selling. May take a while, but a well thought out plan in the beginning did not become a bad plan on a certain day requiring me to rebalance all at once. 2) If new contributions will take too long then do the rebalancing over a few months. Juust like you should not put a windfall in all at once. A person should dollar cost average in & out.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:50 am
I have embraced the dollar cost averaging philosophy and don’t even look at the price when I rebalance. Over the last 9 months I have heard so many co-workers moan about their 401k balances and have seen them all reduce their contributions as the market went down and down. Just the kind of thinking that is making them lose more money, in the long run. Now that the market has come back up, I see more people starting to increase their contributions again. They don’t see the backward thinking in this strategy. Meanwhile I just keep my investments constant. The world and the US economy is not going to end, things will eventually turn around. It may make your stomach turn now to see the lose, but for those who have a decent amount of time before retirement I think will look back and be thankful they fought through the sinking feeling that they are losing money knowing in their heart, it’s only for the short term.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:17 am
I agree that market timing is a bad idea for most people - and it’s especially bad for you. You have exactly the wrong mindset.
If you are a person who second-guesses himself, then you would have no chance if you were to attempt to profit from timing the market.
The idea is to make the best possible investment decision at the time a decision must be made. If it turns out to not be the best (looking back, after the fact), that’s the way life works. You do the best you can.
If you beat yourself up - as you did, then this is not for you. But you already knew that.
Regards.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:18 am
If you’re looking to invest funds, it’s hard not want to try to time the market, at least for that day (sell on an up day, buy on a down day).
What surprises me is that you’d be having to put much into bonds at all. Was your allocation that far off? The market is still down from the beginning of last year (1/2/08 was S&P was at about 1447) - if anything, I would think you’d be selling some bonds to put your allocation back in line. Have you decided to change your approach?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:23 am
I had a “set price”. I put my orders on fidelity by price, so if the my index fund that I want to sell (or buy) reaches XXXX on a certain day, then fidelity automagically sells (or buys) at that time. It involves less thought too. That way I’m not saying “I got $100 but I could get $105 the market momentum is great!”
June 26th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Making a long term plan and sticking to it is one half of the battle. The other half, as JD illustrates is removing emotion from your trading to allow you to follow that plan. And that’s really tough! We’re emotional creatures. We spent millions of years evolving into animals that can think and feel and trying to fight our nature and turn that off is really stinkin’ hard.
What kind of things do you do to keep the emotion out of your investment decisions?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:24 am
This is exactly why I pay my 401k manager a small fee to make these transactions for me. I tell them what sorts of allocations I want and they take care of the details. I know I’m paying them for something I could theoretically do myself, but I also know myself well enough to know that I would be paralyzed by fear of timing things poorly. As it stands, things are balanced for me and I just get to watch the portfolio’s value increase over time without stressing about how I “could have” done this or “should have” done that.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:36 am
JD,
In my experience this is a challenge for almost everybody (including myself). One interesting idea that was told to me by a previous economics teacher was that most people put money into something thinking they are “investing” when in actual fact they are “saving”. They are two completely different activities.
Saving occurs when you want to preserve your capital. Investing occurs when you put your capital in harm’s way in order to create value. When saving, you want to minimize risk. When investing, you want to generate value. Saving is about “staying rich” and investing is about “getting rich”. The problem comes when you confuse the two and want to “get rich” without “generating value”.
Most people put money into stocks hoping for them to “go up”, but not actually adding value. Buying an index fund is NOT investing - it is saving. Buying a AAA rated bond is not investing, but saving. Loaning money to your brother-in-law to buy a table saw to start a deck-building business is investing. I believe the Warren Buffett has become rich because the value he adds is he takes identifies mis-priced companies and uses funds from his insurance businesses to purchase them.
Remember, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either you preserve your capital or you have to add value. You can’t have it both ways and still stay/get rich.
squished
June 26th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Market timing==playing the market=gambling.
As the old adage (or new, paraphrased either way) says: the best way to have a million dollars a year from now by playing the stock market is to start with 2 million.
Gambling is luck. The problem is people get addicted, especially after a win. So, when someone plays the stock market and doubles his money in 3 months, he’ll spend years and lose thousands of dollars chasing that return. The same goes for people hearing of others success gambling in the stock market (fabricated or real.) And the books. All I have to say about them is this: I could write a book and say that I bought 100 shares of Google on 8/20/04 for $10,101 and sold them on 1/12/06 for $47,400 (a 473% return in 17 months.) I didn’t, but I could say I did. Its really easy to predict the past.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:46 am
I believe there is a big difference between playing the market based on one’s emotions and setting up well defined rules to go by regardless of one’s emotion.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am
If you truly risk-adverse (i.e. You would be ruined if you lost all the money you have invested), you shouldn’t be investing in the stock market.
No, index funds really aren’t very diversified investments.
It’s easy to say, “Just buy long-term and hold, look over the last 30 years it’s had 10 percent returns!”
Well, over the past 10 years the returns have been negative. And read the link in comment #1 to see how good returns are compared to CD-laddering even over the LONG-TERM.
And the next 30 years most likely won’t see such growth again in the stock market.
Of course, I’m probably wrong - but the fact is, stocks are one of the most risky investments there are (even index funds). They fluctuate so dramatically because the stock price is based 100% on future expectations. Do you know what a P/E ratio is? That is the basic measure of how a stock is trading compared to past earnings. It’s usually quite high, and during the bubble times it’s INSANELY high.
If you look at investing as a way to secure retirement and not have your money destroyed by inflation - then stocks should be a much lesser part of your portfolio than they probably are.
If you think investing is your key to riches, then you can continue to throw all your money into equities and watch your investment disappear when the next world crisis hits.
EDIT: I just read through previous comments again and saw #19. That’s EXACTLY what I’m referring to, very well said. Hopefully these personal finance “experts” can start to dish out actual good advice instead of just saying “buy long-term and hold” and think they’re doing people a favor.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:13 am
@Andy - how can you take Mish the Fish seriously? He refuses to incorporate dividends into his returns analyses, which is basically just ignoring the data that goes against his argument.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Limit order! That’s what it’s called!
That’s of course if you’re comfortable deciding when you’ve got enough
June 26th, 2009 at 8:30 am
The key is setting aside your “play money” that is intended just for this kind of “gambling”. It’s like when you go to Vegas…you take the amount of money you are willing to lose, so that mentally if and when you DO lose it, you don’t beat yourself up too bad. The same philosophy can help with short-term investing.
The majority of our money still needs to be socked away for mid- and long-term investing goals, using dollar cost averaging as many here mentioned.
Otherwise, you’re gambling with your future when it’s not your full time job! When we do it ourselves, with our hard-earned money, we make too many buy & sell decisions on EMOTION.
Thanks JD for another good post…and some great comments.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:48 am
@davidson07
I agree that leaving out dividends paints quite an inaccurate picture of returns. But at the same time, most of these so-called “investors” don’t really pay attention to dividends anyway, and the dividend yields don’t factor into their investment decisions.
So I agree with you - but I do think that even if he had included dividends in his numbers wouldn’t have changed too dramatically. Most companies have been reinvesting instead of distributing their earnings over the past 15 years anyway.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:48 am
This has been on my mind a lot lately. It is said that the stock market is not gambling, because the shares you purchase represent an ownership share in a company. So it’s tempting to look at that company’s assets minus its liabilities to reach its net worth, and then divide that number by the number of outstanding shares and say, ‘Look! Each share of stock is worth this much, and since the company is profitable, the value of these shares should rise.’
None of this means squat if you can’t find a buyer. Never, ever ever forget that the only thing a share of stock is worth is what someone will pay for it. There really is no such thing as a stock that’s “undervalued.” You can own a share of stock in the best, most profitable company in the world, and it won’t be worth anything if no one will buy it.
Not to be all gloom and doom, or tinfoil-hat-wearing, but I think the U.S. economy is going to tank even worse than it already has. And it’s going to last, and last, and last. We have had decades of idiocy in government, and the current financial crisis is being handled the same way in which Japan’s government handled its similar situation, which led them to a “lost decade.” What’s the point of buying stock if it’s not going to increase in value for ten years? (Which I think is an optimistic - yes, optimistic - estimate of how long this depression will last.)
Also, have any of you watched the movie I.O.U.S.A.? It’s truly frightening. We are going to have a serious cash drain on SSI and Medicare within the next few years - these programs will have to start paying out more than they are taking in beginning in the year 2016. That’s only six years away. And this is on top of $13 trillion in national debt. The boomers are going to suck the system dry and then cash out their 401Ks and IRAs en masse so they can still retire, a massive selloff which will plunge the stock market even further down.
There are also a lot of reasons to think that inflation and taxes will skyrocket. I believe things are going to be very tough for a very long time. I’m getting completely out of debt - including getting my condo paid off in two more years - because I am convinced it’s going to get harder and harder for everyone to make ends meet. If I lost my job and had to take a huge pay cut, I would still get by just fine without a mortgage payment. So maybe I am being a nervous nellie, or overly pessimistic - actually I really hope that’s true and I end up being wrong. But right now I feel like the stock market is simply a gamble with a dismal future ahead of it.
They have *weather futures* for crying out loud. What distinguishes it from a football pool?
June 26th, 2009 at 8:48 am
@Eric: From what I’ve seen, when people suggest a buy & hold strategy using index funds, they’re not usually suggesting a portfolio comprised entirely of equity index funds but rather one composed of a mix of equity index funds and bond index funds (perhaps with a REIT fund as well).
June 26th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Things usually go haywire when your emotions get all tangled up with decisions about when to invest or “get out” of the market.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:11 am
This is exactly the reason why I think that rebalancing your assets based on selling the ones that have gone up the most in order to buy more of the ones that haven’t done so well recently is troublesome. In my own investments, I “rebalance” by adjusting my future contributions to direct my asset allocations towards where I would like them to be.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Just from reading the comments you can see that stock market investing is full of tension. There was a recommendation by a fairly famous investor some years back who said, “Invest down to the sleeping level”.
He was saying that investing should never cause you to loose sleep, and if it does you need to reduce your exposure down to a level at which you can sleep soundly at night without worrying what’s happening with your investments. I suspect that would be a pretty low level for most people.
Unless you work in the security markets on a full time basis, that’s pretty solid advice. Most of us have a “day job” plus other responsibilies where we need to focus primarily, that might somehow be impaired by worrying about questions of buy or sell, timing, risk, etc.
It’s my experience that stocks never cooperate with our timing in life–ie when we need to liquidate a position for an unrelated need–let alone the timing of a sale.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I have been suprised as some of the comments I have read so far. There are some great tools available from some retirement providers that auto rebalance your portfolio for you. This removes all emotional aspects out of the decision.
I have enjoyed reading those discussing the solid basics of passive investing; dollar cost average, non-market timing, and tracking stocks.
Maybe I missed it but make sure you are keeping your fees to an absolute minimum. Don’t pay anyone 1% annually to manage a simple 60% equity 40% bond portfolio (just an example) when you could do the same for yourself for 0.2% annually with tracking stocks. Nothing will eat more long term gains than ongoing fees within your long term investment choices.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I’m going to disagree. Anecdotal evidence being what it is, and the fact I lost a lot of money doing things the wrong way (more anecdotal evidence) actually doesn’t invalidate solid technical analysis. Looking at moving averages and such will help give you some perspective on the general trend in the market. I won’t claim you can time the market perfect every time, but I wouldn’t say you can’t or should never attempt to time the market. Hit me up via email if you want more information on some moving average technical analysis - including how you could have gauged your trade mentioned in this article.
P.S. - I’m not selling a system, I just have learned some things that are not common wisdom.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:22 am
First @Randy for a bit of humor: http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/analyst-gifts-tshirts-organic-cotton-tee/179231169
But more seriously, the analysis by Mish does not include dividends. The article states that the S&P has doubled over the past 15 years (it went from about 450 to 900), so he is right that the value of the S&P index has doubled. If you include dividends (i.e., total return) then returns increase to 150% instead of 100%. Sounds like you may want to reconsider those telling you not to buy and hold. Reinvesting the dividends is almost as important as capital appreciation for this strategy to work, so you must keep that in mind. You can see the difference by examining the following spreadsheet:
http://www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/xls/index/MONTHLY.xls
The second tab is more useful for seeing the role dividends play in one’s investment strategy.
June 26th, 2009 at 10:57 am
“Invest down to the sleeping level”.
Thing is, people want to spend the last thirty years of their lives not working. This unrealistic expectation has established itself within people’s minds as an entitlement, thanks to the Ponzi scheme of Social Security. But do the math.
If you were debt-free and lived inexpensively, you could get by on, say, $20,000 a year. If you did that for 30 years (the ages of 60-90), you would burn through $600,000. Average household income in the USA is somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000 a year, which puts a 30-year retirement far out of reach for most people. But people hate their jobs, so they scrape together whatever pitiful amount of money they can, trying to make that retirement dream happen. The stock market is the “magic box” - that thing you’re supposed to be able to stick money in and have it spontaneously generate even more money. They might as well be sticking it into a slot machine.
As they get closer and closer to the age of 60 and don’t have enough money accumulated, they get ever greedier for high returns and put more of their money at risk.
Maybe it would be better for people’s mental health if they just accepted that they will still have to earn some kind of paycheck - even if it’s only a part-time job they don’t mind doing - up until the last 5-10 years of their lives. It makes me glad I don’t have to lift heavy things for a living.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am
If you made profit, don’t look back, always another chance to make more money again. Chasing after bad is also a poor strategy, you are either committed to a stock for the extended long term or you are going to sell if it drops too much or too fast for your liking. If it goes back up maybe you should consider having a longer outlook when you are debating whether to sell. So i’d say know your goals before you even BUY the stock. Also once you are invested in a stock, if you make more than 3% set a trailing stop, takes the emotions out of the situation. You are correct that it’s hard to tell what a stock will do on monday, but giving that on average the market sells off on friday and the market is indeed down, i’d give you an 80% chance that the market will be up on monday, especially if you see a stock that was potentially oversold. It’s not a science, market timing doesn’t work out for everyone, but for the best gains…It’s all timing.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:09 am
The biggest mistake you made is deciding you needed to get out all at once. You should never invest all your money in one shot. You should set a ladder of buy/sell orders, also referred to as cost/dollar averaging, but in a little more disciplined way.
Here’s the gist. You want to buy $1000 worth of ABC. ABC currently trades for $10/share. You can never be sure that is as cheap as it will get, so you place 10 orders for $100 each at $10, 9.75, 9.50, 9.25, $9,…
It isn’t about getting all your money in the market, it’s about getting it in at the best price. Then you wait. Your $10 order may hit right away, then maybe the next and maybe even the 9.50 hits. You’ve picked up 30% of your position for an average of $9.75. Let the other orders sit there. If ABC moves up to $13/share and you still feel like it’s a good buy, adjust your orders that haven’t hit yet, so that you buy it higher or wait for an inevitable pullback. Or if ABC continues to drop to $9 or lower, you have a set of orders picking it up along the way.
You can do the same for selling, but if you feel strongly that a stock is going to go down, then be more aggressive. Setup fewer ladders or if you’re happy with your overall gains and won’t likely feel remorse if it continues to go up, sell in one shot. I’m always more aggressive on the sell side, because some market condition or indicator is telling me to sell.
This is all about letting the market come to you instead of you chasing the market. Another tip is to place these orders when the market is closed. Then you are less likely to act emotionally. Setup a system and stick to it. It takes discipline to do well in the market.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Pirate Jo–I can’t say AMEN loud enough here! Fiancial press/media investment projections assume perfect world conditions (and a healthy dose of wishful thinking). Investing is worthwhile, but invest for LIFE, not for some fixed date in the future when all will be right with the world. In real life that hardly ever happens.
In the meantime, you’ll need money throughout your life, not just when you’re 65. So while you’re trying to think long term, you always have to be prepared to answer the question ‘what if I need the money sooner’.
Because the market cooperated with longterm plans during the 80s and 90s–with almost mathematical precision–many people are conditioned to believe that performance to be “normal”. It isn’t.
There are people who did all the right things–steadily investing a percentage of earnings, dollar cost averaging, diversifying in different sectors–amassing large fortunes during the 80s and 90s, then retired only to find the market taking back all the gains they worked so diligently to accumulate.
Better to “invest” your time and money in a career that you find so satisfying that you could easily do it the rest of your life. In the meantime, invest money for both the short and medium terms, as well as longterm, because none of us knows what will happen. It’s never as simple as ‘averaging 10% over the longterm’; life has a way of making a mockery of averages!
June 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am
JD: I, for one, would love to see you do an evaluation and article on the link/article in comment #1…
June 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am
JD,
As a personal finance blogger, we need you to keep up the image that we are all flawless and perfect. We don’t make investing mistakes.
Nah… good personal story. I’ve done that myself. “Maybe one more day…” then it plummets.
Another lesson learned, and reinforcement that timing just doesn’t work.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
No Debt Plan–That’s a very humble admission on your part, but I think it’s one of the reasons people come to personal finance blogs, to hear the truth of real people experiencing real life.
We get too much of the cannned “if you do this, then you’ll get that” talk from the schmexperts in the mainstream media, as if life can be reduced to a scientific or mathematical formula, and the only people who fail are the ones not following the program correctly.
Real life is so much more interesting.
June 26th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
One thing strikes me about this discussion, and it’s the idea of centralizing on one broker: I’m not so sure. In a vibrant stock market, following one person’s applied principles is okay, but in a sluggish, turbulent economy, you want to hedge all of your bets, and approaches to betting. I think all of the comments fall under that umbrella–whether to invest short term, long term, etc.
For whatever it’s worth: As a college professor and longtime journalist specializing in finance and teaching kids about money management, I constantly encourage my students not to let any one theory overtake their own thinking. Instead of consolidating my investments with one brokerage house right now, I’ve diversified, including giving portions of my investment capital to brokers of different ages.
My own financial advice blog is AskAnne–giveme20.com/blog.
I’d love to hear critiques about the advice i’m giving there. This is such a great, vocal group.
–Anne
June 26th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
“schmexperts”…that was great. Love your style Kevin@OutofYourRut! I’m going to have to use that!
June 26th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
MFIC.com–As much as I’d love to claim credit for schmexperts, I can’t. It was coined by Robert Ringer back in the 70s as a word to describe someone who, I believe, is a schmuck passing himself off as an expert. It seems a glove-fit for TV “experts”.
Otherwise the style is all mine
Thanks!
June 26th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I usually don’t promote my blog through discussion on other sites (or haven’t since I learned it’s not in good taste) but on the topic of timing the market and expert advice I wrote an entry on my site regarding the *experts* from a Feb 2008 Kiplinger magazine. Jeremy Siegel wrote a lengthy article where he predicted in 2009 the recession would end, foreclosures would slow to normal levels, the subprime crisis would end, the economy would grow, stocks would return 8-10% and the best part is where he predicted Rudy Giuliani would win the republican primaries and Hillary Clinton would win the democratic primaries, ultimately predicting Hillary would be elected president.
Don’t rely on *experts* from TV and magazines to make your investment decisions. Ultimately you need to have an awareness of your personal goals, and how best to achieve them, then be willing to act.
http://my5k5k.ning.com/profiles/blogs/do-financial-experts-have-a
June 26th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Kevin@Outofyourrut: Oh definitely I completely agree. Personal stories help us all connect better… and think of times where we go “Oh yea! I remember doing that…”
June 26th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
No Debt Plan–Makes us realize we’re not as screwed us as we thought…Well, we’re still screwed up, but we have company, so we’re not screwed up alone–which makes it easier to live with ourselves. I’m rambling…I’ll stop now…
June 26th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Total Return seems to be around 10% historically.
About 6% for price appreciation.
http://www.hussmanfunds.com/html/longterm.htm
June 26th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I would agree with you that for the amateur investor, market timing does not work. They either do not have access to the news and data a professional does, nor perhaps the skill or time to try and day trade. Many an investor lose money because they have an emotional tendency to sell when a loss starts getting a little uncomfortable, and or to sell at a minimal gain, and missing the run up.
For you and your 500 Index fund… The S&P500 closed on June 12th at 940 followed by 3 down days straight. Were you aware that on that 3rd down day (June 17th) that we closed above the 200day moving average. A bullish sign. And we did bounce right off it reaching a high of about 923.81 before closing around 917. On the 22nd we had a big sell off and closed below the 200Day Moving average (the day you sold off). Again this might look bearish, however the 50Day MA did cross the 200day MA (called a golden cross) that day. This is a very very bullish sign, as it shows a longer term trend to the upside. We have since stayed right around the 200 day (Our new support).
If you are attempting to day trade, it is important to have as much information at your hands as possible. Having the days market profile numbers on your screen for an index or stock is very important. Having perhaps a 5-10-20 Day moving average. Watching the Bank Index in pre-market. I could go on, but without this you’re basically just gambling.
Here is an example for the sp500 for Friday (not a recommended trading day). high value area 917ish, point of control 912.50, low value area 904. We opened around the HVA and sold straight down to the POC (a buy) and bounced back up the HVA. We then went right back down, this time falling just below POC (another buy) and headed right back up again to the HVA. If you had bought at the open and held all day long, you’d have lost money. If you had watched it and bought a couple hours in when it came down to the point of control and held all day, you’d have made a couple points.
There is a science to charting and day trading. Its not 100% perfect, nor will it be (that’s why we have trailing stops!). I might also argue the average investor does not play with enough money. Even with a small $5 commission, you play with 100 bucks or 500 that is already 10% or 2% respectively working against you on one buy and sell order.
June 26th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I also like a previous comment about re-balancing your asset allocation with new money vs. buying and selling existing holdings. No doubt at some point in the future the market will recover and many will have wished they were on board that train, but will undoubtedly be on it too late.
All 3 major indices have had their 50day MA cross the 200 now. As I said above that is a very bullish sign to the longer trend upwards. It is very significant run up and moment for our market. The Government is not going to let it slip so easily.
June 26th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I’m a big believer in the long-term market timing while also a big critic of short-term market timing. One of the reasons why I favor long-term market timing is that it gets you out of the habit of paying attention to short-term developments. That stuff will drive you crazy. One of the reasons why I am not a fan of Passive Investing is that, after 30 years of it, most investors still pay far too much attention to short-term market developments. Promotion of the Passive Investing concept has not done the job of teaching us how to invest realistically and effectively.
Rob
June 26th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Andy Hough (#1) is absolutely correct. Everyone, JD especially, should read Mish’s blog post.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I have been investing for years and have become quite good at it. (A natural if you will) What I have discovered is that good investing does take discipline. I set 10% training losses on all of my trades and I never buy at market open. I trade at the end of the day. Set stops, invest in solid companies, watch their management, and listen conference calls but take the forward statements with a grain of salt. When I buy a company I like to visit it if possible. This is how I made tons of money with Best Buy. If I like the look and feel as well as the product when I visit I also watch the cash registers for about an hour. Then I make my decision. Has yet to fail
June 26th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Sounds like you also need to move past the emotional urge to wait for a better deal when you’ve got a good one staring you in the face. I had this issue when considering a 5 percent mortgage rate and trying to decide if I should wait for it to go lower - one of the guys I work for, a farmer, put it in perspective when he said, should I take $8 wheat or wait for $10? (Wheat, historically, is in the $3-6 range but soared up into the teens last year.) Similarly, 35 percent is pretty good.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Dude, you still made 30% right? Stop living in the past. That is better than losing 30%. You can’t live with should haves and what ifs. Be glad you made a profit. When you gamble, I mean invest, you are making the best, hopefully informed, decision that you can.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
I think it should be pointed out that the belief that stock indexes should increase in relative value over enough time is not ill founded. The whole point of business is to create more and more value. Wealth, over such an interval, is not a zero sum proposition.
For my purposes I’m not hoping to become fabulously rich with equity holdings. I’m hoping to own that asset class and enjoy its benefits while understanding its limitations.
Also, buying stocks is not saving it is investing and here’s why: the company in question needs a high stock price to be able to more effectively expand operations and use leverage. By buying their existing stock or any such new stock, you are facilitating that. It is exactly the same as loaning your brother money for a saw, etc.
I’m not pissing on non equity based strategies either. If someone just wants to ladder CDs, let them if that suits their goals, needs, and temperament.
I personally have no freaking idea what asset will return the most money between now and 30 years from now. I will plan accordingly.
June 26th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Snowballer, I tend to agree with you as far as a general outlook. The problem is that most of the last 25 years haven’t been typical. The mathematical rise in the market has produced valuations that are out of sync with historic norms, and we’re now dealing with the aftermath of a confidence problem.
A stock index trading at 30 or 35 times earnings, or even ratings from ratings agencies no longer seem credible. The recent 35% rise in the market over just 3 months isn’t in anyway normal either, especially against the economic background. How does an investor, especially a conservative one react to any of this?
I think that’s the real issue, not so much the wisdom of stock market investing in general or even how to go about it. Until this is sorted out/corrected/etc, any approach is high risk, even those that seem conservative relative to others. I guess what I’m saying is that this is no longer a market for unsophisticated investors or those who aren’t prepared for the possibility of losing most of their investment. It’s just the situation of the moment.
June 27th, 2009 at 12:53 am
But see that’s the thing, what P/E ratio IS acceptable?
Nobody can tell me.
Should not many factors go into consideration of each stock you are contemplating buying to determine what P/E ration will work?
A lot of people do exactly that. Problem is most people have neither the time or can’t afford the opportunity cost to really learn now especially considering the “experts” often don’t fare well themselves in such ventures. Lynch is famous for a reason (and it may even be just dumb luck).
Honestly if you can play pro ball or do brain surgery and get paid gobs of money, or do something else more mundane for small amounts of money, is it wrong to not desire to make sacrifices to gain an expertise you may never master?
Deciding what you’re comfortable with “losing” and then diversifying all holdings within that asset class is the best most people are honestly going to do, imho. If there really was some simple metric that determined when the best time to sell was, the entire stock market would collapse because everyone would buy and sell at the exact same time, all the time.
June 27th, 2009 at 2:51 am
If there really was some simple metric that determined when the best time to sell was, the entire stock market would collapse because everyone would buy and sell at the exact same time, all the time.
Benjamin Graham provided a simple metric in his book “Security Analysis (published in the 1930s),” Snowballer. That metric is P/E10 (the price of an index over the average of the last 10 years of its earnings). That metric has worked well since the day the stock market opened for business. Anyone who uses that metric to know when to increase and when to lower his stock allocation is able to retire at least five years sooner than would otherwise be possible. I have a calculator at my site that shows that anyone who switches today to using that metric can make up (over the next 30 years) the entire amount he lost in the stock crash by doing so. There is nothing the least bit complicated about investing effectively.
There’s one problem. The Stock-Selling Industry sees it as being in its benefit for middle-class investors to believe that it is always a good time to buy stocks. So it has directed hundreds of millions of dollars to marketing campaigns “teaching” us that “timing never works.” Do you think that the car-selling industry would not try the same thing if it could get away with it? Is there any industry that doesn’t want the public to become price indifferent in its decisions about buying its product?
You are right that if we all knew how stock investing worked, stocks would never again be insanely overvalued or insanely undervalued. If it were possible for us to share with each other what we have learned about how stock investing works in the real world, stocks would always go up about 6.5 percent real, the amount of gain justified by the productivity generated by the U.S. economy. You would never again see the insane gains you saw in the late 1990s. And you would never again see the sort of crash you saw last year.
Would that really be such a bad thing? I think it would be wonderful.
Rob
June 27th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Of course, if everyone “knew” when to sell, the smart money would sell just before that, leaving everyone else holding the bag. The market timing system you want to follow should never become well-known
“So it has directed hundreds of millions of dollars to marketing campaigns “teaching” us that “timing never works.””
Really? Almost everyone I know times the market. Where are all these massive marketing campaigns? Why is it every time I turn on a financial show, I see pundits talking about when and what to buy? Given all the bubbles and bursts, it seems that a lot of people aren’t getting the message to stop market timing.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:58 am
Given all the bubbles and bursts, it seems that a lot of people aren’t getting the message to stop market timing.
It’s emotional investing that causes all the bubbles and bursts, Lindsay.
Timing is paying attention to price. If you ignore price, you are investing emotionally. It’s giving in to our emotions that got us into this mess.
The idea that timing doesn’t work is the entire problem. Timing is not the problem, timing is the solution.
How else can we get stock prices down when they are too high except by timing?
There is nothing else — except suffering a huge crash. We were persuaded by the marketing campaign not to time. So we went the crash route instead. To what constructive purpose? Had we just sold stocks (timed the market) like we all knew we should have, there would have been no need for a crash and we would all be a lot better off today.
Rob
June 27th, 2009 at 7:23 am
“It’s emotional investing that causes all the bubbles and bursts, Lindsay.”
Emotions mean nothing to the market. It is buying and selling - ie following whatever market timing systems that people happen to be following that drives bubbles and bursts.
“How else can we get stock prices down when they are too high except by timing?”
That’s what we have said above. If everyone agrees on one specific timing system - then the burst happens all together. Just don’t be on vacation the day the timing system says to burst. And if you’re smarter, you should develop your own timing system that sells the day before everyone else.
For that matter, how did they get high in the first place? It wasn’t due to people ignoring the market - it was due to MORE money going in. Timing based on momentum, business outlooks etc.
Of course, in reality, people are using many different timing systems so it’s not so simple to tell when it’s going to pop. We called it almost to the day in 2000, and did quite well in 2008 too. Others obviously didn’t.
“We were persuaded by the marketing campaign not to time. So we went the crash route instead. ”
Maybe you were persuaded but that’s unusual. A look at inflows and outflows and where the money is going shows that most do time the market. We just don’t know how each person is making the decision.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Lindsay, Rob. As mentioned previously, I’m not willing to allow another GRS thread to be derailed by your discussions. If you want to continue this, please take it to one of the two previous threads I’ve told you that you can have. I’m about ready to leave for a few hours, but if I come back and things have devolved into another circular argument, I will lock this post at a bare minimum.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:35 am
No doubt. If long term (not buy and hold necessarily) investing was as fun as watching the ticker all day long, everybody would be making money. When investing is reduced to gambling, that’s when it needs to be stopped.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Rob,
If you’re ready to discuss this seriously, I suggest we do it here, as J.D. requested:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/06/02/the-lazy-way-to-investment-success/
As J.D. said to you at comment 437: “Actually, Rob, I do. You won’t answer my questions. You refuse to carry on a conversation. You demand that people engage you, but when they do, you refuse to talk. That’s on nobody but you.”
There are still many open questions for you in that thread. Let’s go there!
Another place we can talk is:
http://www.s152957355.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl
Unlike here, discussion of your investing ideas is considered on-topic there, and unlike your blog, comments that disagree with you or ask you detailed questions are allowed to appear on that website.
June 27th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Could please tell us how you are timing the market?
Your thinking or tools used.
Or did you just get a feeling you needed to sell?
Do you look at stock charts?
June 27th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Rob, Lindsay — another option is to take it to the GRS forums. I’d actually recommend that route in the future. It could be a great way to carry on the debate without de-railing new threads.
June 27th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Please feel free to invest however you please, Lindsay. It’s none of my business.
Rob
June 27th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
“Could please tell us how you are timing the market?
Your thinking or tools used.
Or did you just get a feeling you needed to sell?
Do you look at stock charts?”
See that’s just what gets me about Mr. B. His idea would work, it’s just sell when prices are high and buy in again when they’re low. The problem is his only justification is he refers to P/E ratio of the index (averaged over last X years), which sounds good because it’s a real accounting concept. Then he just gets real vague.
I’d actually like to understand his ideas better because a better alternative to passive strategies would be wonderful. But it seems nowhere on his site does he actually, in a marketable and useful way, explain step by step how to do this.
From his comment above I have gathered he seems to think we should sell when P/E reaches some number. That’s fine and good but the problem with P/E as a metric is that while that certainly is simple, he’s arguing against simplicity!
Using a single ratio to quantify a non objective concept like value is very narrow thinking, for lack of a better word. You might as well pick cash flows or equity to book value or some other ratio that gives you some idea how things are faring but doesn’t tell the whole story.
The other problem is that if P/E is your ratio, even if you average it over 10 years, yeah you get a pretty stable denominator that only changes a little bit once in a while (whenever you update it), but the numerator changes every single day. So when do you act?
Also, how is any value for P/E at which you should sell anything more than a rule of thumb?
What’s more, P/E today or of the past means, well, nothing. We have no way of knowing what P/E is going to be in the future. It wouldn’t take much fluctuation for any rule of thumb you figure out to not work any more.
I think I’m being very fair and honest to Bennett by stating if you did pick the right P/E value his idea would work wonderfully. I simply do not believe you can objectively pick such a value however, and he’s not demonstrated how.
I suspect from what I’ve read Mr. Bennett’s real product are his web pages and blog posts and such, and he’s hoping the idea will catch on so he can be a famous investment guru and sell all those books he purportedly has paid to store. His wish for an objective stock market is commendable but impossible, as no other product on earth is priced completely objective either. There’s a premium on nearly everything that’s just based solely on the irrational degree to which it is desired.
June 27th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Yeah, that is market following, not timing.
* “Oh, the market has been good. I’m staying in.”
* “Oh, the market has been bad. I’m getting out.”
* “Oh, the market has been good. I got out too early.”
All of that is basing your decision on what is already past. Market timing is something completely different. Most funds can show that their fund return has outperformed the people who own their fund! This is because people buy in after it has performed well (and will probably underperform now), and sell after it has underperformed (and will probably perform better now). Thus most people “buy high and sell low”… That is market chasing, and that is what you (and most people) did, J.D.
Market Timing is different, involves understanding charts and is not for amateurs. You can make money at this, but it is trading, not investing, and is like another job. You have to take it seriously, show up, and learn a lot…
It is also part of a strategy, not the only thing you need to do. Fundamental research to pick good stocks, market timing to know when to get in, money management and risk control, and stops to limit losses - these together make a solid trading strategy.
June 28th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Blindly holding long term isn’t always the answer either. I have held a few mutual funds for about ten years. All from high quality companies like Vanguard. If holding long was the sure answer, I would be in the black by about ten percent. Truth be told, on average they are worth less today then when I bought into them. I’d be significantly better off if at the time ten years ago I sunk all the money in CDs. Holding long may to some extent still be good advice, but the prevalence of online trading may have thrown a wrench in that philosophy because it is now much easier to day trade, short sale, and react quickly to emotions.
Also I do not think buying stocks is really an investment anymore. Investment implies you are supporting a company financially in hopes of a financial return. It can’t be an investment when the system allows others to easily borrow your stocks and short sale them essentially rooting for your investment to fail. News networks like CNN and personalities like Crammer are manipulating stocks either intentionally or unintentionally as well. Years ago, you had to call a broker up, pay a heft commission to buy or sell (at hundred bucks a pop to buy or sell, most people couldn’t do that on a daily basis and make money), media coverage was low, and accordingly prices weren’t subject to as much fluctuation. Today, so called investing is more like going to the race track.
If you are buying individual stocks just pulling the trigger and holding may be bad advice as well. Some well know companies that a few years ago where worth close to two hundred dollars a share are now under five. Bell weather stocks like Ford Motor company are barely keeping their heads above water. Seemingly one time unbeatable retailers like K-Marts stocks were liquidated when the company filed bankruptcy.
June 29th, 2009 at 7:44 am
@miles (myself)
By looking this morning at 10:45 i can see that yes the market is up an overall 1%, so if you had invested in the ivv or sdy you’d have about 1% more cash, you could try doing this over the next couple of weekends, market timing is about taking time to notice the broad trends. Maybe 1% doesn’t sound like a lot, but if you throw enough cash into the market 10l - 20k you’ll be up a nice pretty penny, over the year you could probably manage to pull off a 10% increase doing this.
June 29th, 2009 at 7:47 am
@clint
I completely agree that ladders are the best way to go about investing, it is just hard when you aren’t using quite enough capitol, 10-20k because the fees would kill you, unless you choose a brokerage with little to no fees.
June 29th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I try to remind myself each day that I am an investor and not a speculator. I’ve considered being a speculator, but the track record fo those who try it is horrible. Sure, a few hit a home run once in awhile, but most research and stats show that active investing rarely beats the market index.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Dollar cost averaging is the obvious answer to market volatility. Just remember it helps get you the average price over a period of time, not the best price.
I think the point that most of us are “savers” who are looking for an investment for our savings is a good one. “Buy and hold” is pretty much the only option available. We can change what we hold, but there are no riskless investments. We will eventually reach a point where we sell, but it will likely be determined by what our life that demands a use for the money, not an evaluation of the stock price.
The bottom line on retirement is that we are buyers while we are working and going to be sellers once we retire. No matter what the market is doing. What we can do is slowly shift our investment mix so that it is more stable the closer we get to retirement when we will become sellers.
Our goal now is usually to preserve what we saved, keep up with inflation and make a little extra. It is that “little extra” where we become gamblers. Unless you are investing solely based on the dividends stocks pay, you are speculating - aka gambling - the price of your stock will go up.
Every proxy says past performance is not a promise of future returns. Everyone who puts money in the market should take that statement to heart. The Maddoff’s of the world are the only people who can consistently guarantee a return based on market speculation. The rest of the winners are just on a lucky streak.
Guys like Buffet make their money by investing in companies with a plan to make them profitable. Others are successful pirates, investing in companies and looting them for a quick profit. Many are unsuccessful at both those games but they disappear off the radar screen pretty fast. And none of them, successful or not, have anything to do with the typical speculator/investor in the stock market.
I don’t think bad market timing is just bad luck. Like JD, we are more likely to choose the worst time than the best time. The emotional drives are almost all counterproductive. We tend to hang onto stocks that are raising and sell stocks when they are falling, usually at the very bottom because we don’t want to lose any more money. There are plenty of psychological studies that explain this as normal human behavior.
I think the biggest problem for people who follow their account balances on a regular basis is to remember that these are current valuations of assets, not real money. The only prices that matter are the ones you pay when you buy and the ones you get on selling. If you are buying stock for your retirement, lower prices are your friend. Its only when you are retired and selling that you want higher prices.
November 11th, 2009 at 9:53 am
As someone who has timed the markets for years, I can agree with you that most people CAN’T time the market…at least with most of the technical tools out there.
Most tools are based on PRICE, not TIME. To get timing right, I use time cycles. There is a 19 day, 11 day and 6.5 day cycle that continue to NAIL shorter term moves in the markets like clockwork,and have been for YEARS.
But I’ve been at it a long time, and know how to read the nuances of slightly changing timeframes within those cycles.
It’s a great study, and one I would recommend to every trader.