This is a guest post from A.J. Clark, a long-time lurker at Get Rich Slowly. A.J. is a potential Staff Writer for GRS. He is a recent college graduate who writes software in the financial services industry, while trying to find his financial footing in the Real World.
$76,133.53 — I owe this total to various lenders, who decided four years ago that trusting an eighteen year old with this sum of money was a good idea. However, the original amount of money I owed was much greater ($107,822.33) and even I am amazed with the amount of debt ($31,688.80) I have paid off during my time in college.
Following my heart
A little over four years ago, as I was preparing to graduate from high school, I was in the midst of making a life-altering decision. I needed to choose between attending a public school a few hours from my home in Florida, or my dream school: a private institution in New York City, a school that I fantasized about attending ever since I was a child.
I would be the first person in my family to attend a traditional four-year college or university, and I wanted to make sure that the degree would allow me to live a better life than my parents, and someday achieve financial independence. I was worried that the public school that I had the opportunity to attend would not provide me with the proper set of life experiences that I needed to be successful in life, and I knew that the school in New York City would be able to give me a unique college experience, and put me in a strong position to succeed.
Putting the financial ramifications of my decision in the back of my mind, I decided to follow my heart, and go to New York City. However, I did not fully understand the financial impact of my decision until years later.
A baseball analogy
I liken my current situation to that of Chien-Ming Wang, who is a starting pitcher for the New York Yankees.
Wang had an atrocious beginning to his season, giving up over twenty earned runs during his first three starts. In each outing, Wang lasted no more than two innings or so, and by the time the Yankees decided to put him on the disabled list, Wang had an ERA of over 35.00.
In order to lower his ERA to an acceptable level, Wang would need to pitch a lot of scoreless innings. In fact, during a game earlier this season, an announcer made a comment that Wang would need to pitch sixty or more scoreless innings just to bring his ERA down to his career average of 4.16; needless to say, that feat would break many records.
My financial earned-run average
In a sense, my ERA is my collection of student-loan debt (the composition of which will be a topic for another post), which is barely manageable. In order to bring my debt down to a manageable level, I need to have five or more years of “scoreless innings.”
As many personal finance bloggers can attest, consistently completing scoreless innings is a difficult thing to do — one life emergency is able to impair one’s ability to “compete” financially going forward in life.
- Build an emergency fund?
- Contribute to a 401(k)?
- Be more frugal than a broke college student?
Starting so far in debt to begin with makes it difficult to do these things, though I’m trying to put my best foot forward in my quest for the elusive state of financial freedom. In fact, for the last six months, I have been devouring any and all information that I can find on personal finance, and have learned more or less what I need to do in order to achieve this goal.
Choosing to start behind
However, one thing that has become readily apparent is that unlike Wang, whose high ERA was not intentional, I chose to start behind. I chose to attend a private school in New York City. I chose to incur over a hundred thousand dollars of debt.
Although I am starting with a significant amount of ground to cover before I am able to reach a point where I am debt-free, attending college in New York City, albeit at a high cost, has provided me with many unique opportunities.
For instance, during my sophomore year of college, I was able to obtain an internship with a prestigious firm within the financial services industry. Since I went to college in New York City, I was able to work part-time at the firm during the school year, which ultimately allowed me to begin a full-time job there immediately after graduating — something that is relatively unheard of in this economy.
Much to learn
Growing up, I was taught that some things in life do not come easy, and that money is not the ultimate source of happiness. Although I believe I have a strong working knowledge of the personal finance arena, I know that I still have a lot to learn, and paying off my student loan debt within the next four to six years will be a difficult, if not daunting, task.
Given the opportunity, I would love to chronicle my journey towards finishing ahead (or more immediately, getting to the starting line) here on Get Rich Slowly, and share with the readers the personal finance knowledge I gain along the way, as well as any life experiences that I have relevant to the discussion. If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to leave them in the comments section, and I will respond as soon as I am able.
Chien-Ming Wang photo by Keith Allison.
This article is about Choices, Debt, Education Thursday, 6th August 2009 (by J.D. Roth)


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August 6th, 2009 at 5:06 am
Now that you’ve graduated and are done with school, I’m curious if you would make the same decision to “start from behind.” Obviously, the experiences you had over the past four years are priceless, but would you do it all over again if you had the chance to start from zero instead of in debt?
August 6th, 2009 at 5:37 am
I love this post. I love seeing thoughtful financial advice from someone who isn’t a squillionaire already, who’s working with the same sorts of stuff most people deal with from the bottom, not dispensing advice from on top of the pile after success. You, at least, aren’t patronizing me selling some loud red-font book with hyperactive bullet points on how to manage my finances.
Please, keep us posted on what tactics you take given that you’re in debt!
August 6th, 2009 at 5:46 am
Good luck on your plan to get out of student loan debt, A.J. It will be a challenge, especially given the high cost of living in New York City, but you seem to be focused. I look forward to hearing more from you.
August 6th, 2009 at 5:54 am
Thanks for the post AJ. I started waaaay behind. More importantly, I didn’t do anything after school to get ahead of my finances until now. Today I paid off a $500 line of credit and that really felt good.
Good luck and keep a clean nickel.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:03 am
With one exception, I have thoroughly enjoyed the audition posts. However, this has been my favorite so far. I can’t wait to see who “wins” the position!
August 6th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Really enjoyed this stiry. Good luck on getting to and leaving the starting line behind you, A.J!
August 6th, 2009 at 6:06 am
I wonder if A.J. considered a middle ground - going to a state school outside of his home state. There are quite a few public schools that are highly ranked, and while they might not have been his dream NYC school, they might have been a step above his home state public school. The benefits, of course, of a public school are in-state tuition (even if you have to pay out-of-state the first year while you get residency, it’s a less expensive education overall).
I also took on a substantial amount of debt getting my professional degree, even though I was at a state school - my main regret is that I didn’t try harder to get (and keep) scholarships.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:08 am
To continue the encouraging part of your entry. Nolan Ryan, in his first season had an ERA over 20, but most of us remember his as the “No-Hitter” king and holding the record for the most strike outs ever. So yes it is possible to have a terrible beginning and finish strong.
But, your new pedigree from New York will guarantee you no more success than the next guy. It was/is the New York investment and financial firms who helped orchestrate the mess we are in now as they paid no mind to personal finance and instead focused on “getting rich.”
I don’t want to lump you in with the crooks in the ponzi schemes and prime mortgage mess, but we are conditioned to revere people from top business schools and financial institutions and yet it is they who cause the rest of America who do the prudent things, ie. investing in 401Ks, IRAs, and other retirement vehicles, to suffer the consequences of their meddling.
I’m sure you are a nice person, from a hardworking, blue collar family. But I would rather here about your background from the “Glades to Wall Street,” as the first person from your family to attend college, than I would how you can pay off $100,000 in debt working in a career, which I’m sure will pay a handsome salary. Try writing from another angle. I’m sorry I’ve heard enough from Wall Street recently.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:14 am
It would help if you could give some information on what your major was and what field you’re going into. Some careers might be worth taking on a six figure debt load, but most not. $100k debt on a $35k income would be hard to justify, especially since a car loan and some credit card debt would add to the pile quickly.
But it sounds like you’re on a solid path though if you’ve been able to pay it down by 30,000 just by working part time.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:18 am
Chett,
The average American who wants instant gratification for everything, and buys a new car and new house on credit that they couldn’t reasonably be expected to pay for if the smallest emergency happened is just as at fault of the economic meltdown. It’s easy to blame the “Wall Street” people as a whole for the mess, but that is just a scapegoat for a much larger problem. No one “caused” anyone to do anything they didn’t already want to do, they just enabled people to make stupid choices. And the tech guy at Wall Street firms had absolutely nothing to do with the meltdown.
I think that a degree from that NYC school is a helping hand for greater success than a state school. He is probably making much more money than he would from his other college choice. Starting with a higher salary tends to continue that throughout life, and the connections made are only going to improve his chances of always being at the top, which will be a hugh plus once he pays off his loans and has the options to do whatever he wants with the excess money he has. If he is smart about money now and for the rest of his life, taking that huge debt could be the greatest investment he’ll ever make.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:22 am
I second what Chance has said…of all the guest posts, this has been my favorite. Great post.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:23 am
This was my favorite of your guest posters so far as well. I want to hear more of his story! Congratulations on being focused toward a lifestyle that will assist in paying down your obligations.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:34 am
A.J., your story is inspiring and impressive - especially the fact that you’ve managed to pay down so much debt in such a short period of time, while working part-time! I wish you continued success in all of your endeavors!
To the various individuals who have commented on this post so far:
Starting financial salaries in New York City are far higher than $35k a year, and talented individuals can easily earn well over $100k just a few years out of college.
Placing all of the blame on Wall Street is foolish and absurd - no one forced people to purchase homes they could not afford. The complaints voiced about Wall Street seem to smack of jealousy - jealousy about salaries that the complainers cannot fathom, jealousy about the fact that the complainers are not earning such salaries themselves, as well as other issues. In this country, citizens have the RIGHT to the OPPORTUNITY to have a job (provided that they can perform appropriately on the job)- not a job itself. The same goes for housing - people have the RIGHT to the OPPORTUNITY to own a house, provided that they can handle it financially - not a house itself.
The bankers who receive large bonuses have earned their employers a great deal of money, and their rewards are stipulated in their contracts. Are the banks supposed to simply violate their contracts? This is America - contracts must be honored. If lawmakers acquiesce to the demands of certain members of the public, various banks will be unable to pay their employees competitive salaries - but other banks will. The banks unable to pay will not be able to compete - which could result in far worse circumstances than these vociferous complainers could ever imagine.
People must learn to be satisfied with what they have and stop coveting that which other people have.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:35 am
Loved the baseball analogy! And I agree, sometimes you do chose to start from behind in order to follow your passion, and I’m ok with that. Thanks AJ.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:36 am
I have been reading a lot about how the student loan industry will be the next bubble to pop. I am a big fan of education and I think advanced education can be very worth while but does it make sense as a society to saddle our very young with years of debt payments. I have a friend from professional school that has $100,000+ in debt and she married a classmate with another $150,000 in debt so they stated their careers with $250,000 in debt and the plan to pay on it for 30 years. That debt has impacted their job choices, their ability to buy a house and start a family, move, lifestyle, etc.
I went to state school for undergrad, which my parents paid for, so I had no debt when I graduated which allowed me to go into social services a very low paying industry. Professional school, I went private but had a fellowship that covered about 40% and I also had saved up a good chunk of money which covered my living expenses the first year and half. I graduated with about $30,000 in debt and I paid if off in five years.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:37 am
I don’t think I liked this one as much as some of the others. There’s not enough personal detail to get me interested - it’s just a bit too vague (What major? What field? What school? etc). I’m willing to give it a chance if he becomes the staff writer, but at the moment I’m just not sure how inspiring a story about a guy who got $100k in school debt and is now working in (presumably) a field that will let him pay it off quickly could be. If he paid off 30k while working part time, sounds like the rest will be paid off quickly as well. Then what?
Also, the baseball reference turned me off for some reason, though I don’t dislike the sport itself. I guess I just don’t care to read about it while trying to read about personal finance in the morning.
EDIT: I do tend to agree with td about it being lame to just place the full blame of the current economic situation in the laps of “Wall Street” - no one forced people to buy houses and cars and all sorts of Stuff they could not afford. Yes, “Wall Street” and banks contributed by offering sub-prime loans, but the Consumer contributed by accepting said loans.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:52 am
When I was choosing to go to school, I never factored in cost, prestige of school, etc. I knew I wanted to go to a 4 year school and take in the whole college experience and not worry about the details.
So like him, I took on many student loans and found myself in a hole as well after graduating. When I exited school 3 years ago I had $65K in debt. Fast forward to now, I’ve knocked that down to $40K. Sure I could’ve knocked off an extra $10-$15K extra, but
I’ve learned that while debt is not a great thing to have, sometimes you just have to live life & enjoy the moment because there are just some experiences that you can’t put a price tag on (well, technically you can).
I’m making steps to accelerate debt pay down on those loans, and thanks to readers, bloggers, & guest posts like these, I’m more inspired to get back on track to eliminating this debt! Thanks!
August 6th, 2009 at 6:53 am
I majored in Computer Science at a private school in New York City, and I also took a lot of Mathematics classes while I was there. Which school I went to is not really all that important, as there are a handful of private schools here, and the cost is consistent between them.
Yes, I work on Wall Street, but I write computer programs for my firm. For a software developer, working in financial services is no different from working at Microsoft, Apple, or Google. Instead of making operating systems or web based software at one of these firms, I am writing systems that support others here, be it trading systems, reporting systems, or back office systems.
Thanks for all the feedback. I’ll comment again in a little while, and respond to others who asked me direct questions.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Great post! I’m not too far out of college, and I can’t wait to read more about everything that AJ’s been learning.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:01 am
As a college graduate, as of 3 years ago, I thoroughly enjoyed the post. I am now 3 years into working Full Time and I’ve learned so much in that time and it’s nice to see someone with a perspective I can relate to. Like you I’ve been reading all I can about personal finance and becoming financially independent. I’m 25 and trying to save and increase my credit score and it’s nice to see someone who has started to pay down early and not wait until after school like I did. Continue to be frugal and use my money wisely.
Attending the school in NY will help you down the road over the other school in the end, but again, a different path could’ve been taken as well. It’s all about the path you choose and the one you chose works for you. Continue to keep me updated, I’d like to follow your journey.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:07 am
I applaud you, and I personally know that it can be done. Between school debt and bad credit decisions at a young age, I owed about $71,000 in 2003. It’s taken me 6 years, but I’ve paid off everything but $6,900. Working diligently on it still! (This doesn’t include the house and car that I recently bought.) Although you make a lot of money, get prepared to make a lot of sacrifices! You can do it!
August 6th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Very interesting story to which I can relate. I am a recent grad, I do not work on wall street but I work in financial services. I, however went to a public school, a big one, and studied Accounting.
Personally, I don’t think any private school (even in NYC OMG!) is worth student loans. 80k, 90k, 100k in debt out the door?…crazy. I can tell you that I landed a job in this economy with a public school degree, I didnt’ have a 4.0, I didn’t know uppper management…the school does not matter…it’s just the fact that you have that piece of paper. I can say I had plenty of ‘experiences’ in college as well…For me, the choice is clear. Cool story though.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Aside from the baseball analogy (I’m a hockey fan and know zero about baseball and it’s too early in the morning for me to actually comprehend the definition you wrote for the ERA LOL), I think that your post was interesting. I would definitely like to see more from you. I’m close to your age and I have much less debt, but I find it interesting to see how people my age cope with getting to financial freedom. I think your posts mixed with JD’s posts would be a great combination
You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. I read this article yesterday about a woman with a similar amount of college debt as you, but she seemed to do it ALL wrong. It’s an interesting read: http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2009/08/a-college-debt-nightmare.html
I have no doubt that you will find a way to get out of your debt sooner rather than later.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:17 am
I think this is a great post and definitely relevent to many people. Education is becoming increasingly more expensive, but it is an investment in yourself. So I agree with the thought that sometimes to get ahead, you need to start behind.
I went to a private school for undergrad, and I would not trade that experience for anything — even being debt-free. I went to a state school for a professional graduate program, and now owe a significant amount. It is one of the least expensive schools I could attend that was still a competitive program. So Public does not alway equal less expensive.
Now I am aggressively attacking my debt. I would not be in my current career without making these choices to start behind. My debt is manageable and I can pay it off, even though it will take me many years to do so. But I don’t regret it. In fact, I know that ultimately I will end up ahead.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:18 am
A.J. -
Great post. I enjoyed it. Having your mind focussed on those things right now is a great leap ahead of most people your age and if you stay focussed, you’ll get where you want to go financially. I hope you get the position, but if not, make sure and chronicle your journey elsewhere - it will attract a lot of interested people!
I also liked the ERA analogy - very creative!
August 6th, 2009 at 7:25 am
@JD - you have a tough choice here, all these writers have been a pleasure to read. Ever thought of starting GetRichSlowly2 and just having them all write there?
@Sam - I am in total agreement that something major will happen to the higher education/student loan area in the next 5-10 years. You call it a bubble, I say it is simply unsustainable to keep raising tuition 7-10% annually. When times were good and jobs were plentiful, it was justifiable to spend $100k to go to school to get a good job. Now the tables are turning and a lots of folks are having second thoughts. I still see college as a great opportunity to learn. But I wonder if more kids will start working right out of high school and really think about what they want to do instead of just making college the automatic choice.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Kevin M (#26) wrote: JD - you have a tough choice here, all these writers have been a pleasure to read.
Don’t I know it. I’ve been asking myself what sort of pickle I’ve managed to get myself into!
It’s my hope that everyone — the writers and the readers — understands that *all* of these writers are great, and that it’ll be tough to pick one or two staff writers. I’d love to have them all!
August 6th, 2009 at 7:35 am
I will add my $.02 along to what a few others wrote - I read this blog for the facts. I don’t want to read about a “discount store”…which one saves me money? Or “save money”…give me links to the best CD/money market funds, etc. OK, you get my drift. If you want to write about a school, then give me the name of the school. For gosh sakes, they’re not going to sue you for slander! My previous career was a software developer (writing web apps in VB.net). What language do you use? Are you writing systems from scratch, redoing an existing system in a newer technology? That info gives people an idea of your salary. I’m curious as to why the company you work for needed to hire with all the layoffs that have been going on. These answers will help me as I move on to my next career and begin the interviewing process. Thx!
August 6th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I think this post was very relevant to me since I’m pretty much in exactly the same boat. Although I have a few different circumstances. For instance, I just graduated with about 100k in debt but I couldn’t pay any off during the school year since my part time job only paid enough for my food bills, books and other materials.
So, now that I’ve graduated, I have this gigantic beast breathing down my neck. Unfortunately I don’t have anything like a Comp Sci degree nor did I go to Medical School. I graduated with a degree in animation where your starting salary is usually around 45k.
With the recent recession, that number may even be less so I’m faced with decisions on where to cut lifestyle spending and how to make extra money. Anyways, I would love to hear more from you AJ. I always love hearing stories from people just like me, buried in debt up to their eyeballs and somehow succeeding.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I think this is a great post and he would be a great staff writer. He would be able to cover an area that JD can’t cover - the younger demographic, recently out of college. And it’s different from Ramit because this kid is actually paying off debt, not just giving advice about it. I’d love to see how it goes each step of the way, esp. as someone who has a lot of student debt looming overhead.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Loved the post and the analogy!
After 3 master’s degrees (all of them on full scholarship), I still ended up over $40k in student loan debt because my stipends were so small and sad that I had to take out loans to live.
The $40k investment has paid for itself many times over, and I’m grateful for the experiences and knowledge I gained.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:59 am
Great post! I am a mom of a teenage son, and I think A.J. would be of help in giving me a younger persons perspective on college, debt, etc. His writing was intersting, and encouraging.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:00 am
AJ:
Since you’re so fresh out of school & 1/4 of the way to a zero balance, looking back to see if it was all “worth it”, etc is probably a bit premature. Howerer, I would like to follow along with whatever blog you end up with. If that’s to be here, all the batter, but I also look forward to seeing what the other have to offer. You have some sharp tools in your vest pocket in the field you’re in & good luck in your efforts!
August 6th, 2009 at 8:04 am
I’m reminded of a conversation I overheard about a year ago between a financial services vice president and a bright young-ish woman who’d never gone to college. In the course of informal conversation, the two hit it off, the VP becoming increasingly impressed with the other woman’s intensity, problem-solving abilities, personal experience, and surprisingly good memory skills. The VP offered the other woman a job; she declined, citing the lack of a bachelor’s degree. The VP replied that she didn’t care if the woman bought a degree off the Internet — choice of school meant nothing to her compared with life experience and basic skills, of which this woman had plenty.
An extreme situation, I know, but I think far too many of us (literally) buy into the marketing that colleges and universities put out. It’s depressing that a young man feels he’s best served by going over 100K into debt in order to attend a particular school. That’s not a criticism of A.J., whose story thus far seems to indicate that he benefited from relocating to NYC and getting an internship, and who is now doing the job he presumably wanted to do in the city in which he wanted to do it. Good for you, A.J., and I’m thoroughly impressed with the progress you’ve already made on your debts. But there’s something wrong with a system that encourages such enormous debt at such a young age. You’ve taken a big gamble…it makes me nervous even to think about it. Keep that health insurance up and drive carefully.
Oh, and clearly your post has generated much good discussion, so congratulations. I’d call that a success.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:04 am
I can tell you out of the box that this post will be long:
Regarding AJ’s specific situation, I want to say up front that his choices are his own and just because I wouldn’t/didn’t make the same choices doesn’t mean I think he made the wrong ones for him.
I faced a very similar situation out of HS. I could attend a very nice technical school in a big city (Chicago in my case) or my state school. Living in NV my choices were UNR or UNLV, not great prospects in engineering. but I made the opposite choice from AJ, I looked at the expense of the private school and couldn’t justify it, so I stayed in state.
You say you wouldn’t trade your college experience for anything, I think if you are determined to get as much out of it as possible there are many schools that would have had a good fit and you would feel the same way about. I think part of our responsibility to be happy is to thrive where planted. I wasn’t crazy about my state school but it’s where I landed. You might have fallen on your face and be jobless now, but in all likelihood if you were able to impress people where you are you would have been able to impress people just about anywhere. Most of the research I have read implies that any bump you get from coming out of a prestigious school fades within five years. After that it’s all up to you and how much you impress people after school. Where I work now puts a LOT of emphasis on your school record (if you’re hired 20 years after graduation you can still be passed over for a position if your GPA wasn’t high enough). MIT, Cornell, and Georgia Tech impress them, but not nearly as much as a GPA over 3.5 (even from UNR), because in the end you get out of a school what you TAKE out of it (I won’t argue the actual value of GPA to measure job success, we do that often enough in my office). I managed to graduate with only a couple thousand dollars of student loan debt (that I took out strategically because I will never again get a loan at <3%).
Regarding the cost of school there are three major factors I see at work. The first is the increased demand for BA/BS degrees. I blame our culture that has become snobbish so even kids who are a good fit are directed away from trade schools. And public schools that turn out kids with fewer marketable skills. Therefore they HAVE to get post HS training to learn basic skills they would have had with a diploma a couple generations ago. The second is the slow expansion of colleges and universities to accommodate the influx of new students. This is partially due to the accreditation infrastructure that makes it hard, but if you have X slots and you have X+Y applicants how do you reduce the number? Part of that is via price. The third reason is that government and private institutions have thrown so much money into education. Applying to a college these days is like shopping for a used car. You get a ’sticker’ price when your application is approved, but then you dance with financial aid to determine what the ACTUAL cost will be to you. And once again if price is a weeder making it more affordable won’t help as they will simply increase their prices further. On top of that universities are notoriously bad with money which means they are perpetually ‘needing’ more.
Finally we have to consider where student debt comes from, and it’s not all from tuition. I know plenty of people who lived like the proverbial college student and came out with little or no debt (even with minimal financial aid and help from parents). I also know people who are still paying off their student loans years later because they spent their weekends and summers partying rather than working for money to pay for school. That might add to their fond memories of school, but paying four to five years of living expenses at 8% is one heck of a ‘hangover’.
Back to my original point, many students and parents coming out of HS think that they need to attend a prestigious (a.k.a. expensive) institution to get a leg up in life. But for a BA/BS what you get out of the actual classes matters more (though the school on your MS/PhD can really have a big impact). Even state school professors have some great connections. And if you look a lot of state schools have the best programs in their field. Add that onto the fact that if you reach too far and barely make it into a program you might want to reconsider if you will even be successful (obviously not AJ’s problem). You will look better having a 3.5 from Podunk U than a 2.5 from MIT.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:07 am
I like your writing style and I’m impressed with your willingness to take on such debt at an early age. You have to really know yourself and your capability to work hard over the coming years to come to that decision. I do not believe that is a common trait for an 18 year old.
With regards to the argument in these posts about the Meltdown, I think we should lay blame equally on Wall Street and Main Street. Wall Street lobbied for deregulation for decades and then over leveraged to absurd levels when they should know better. I mean they are professionals in the financial industry, right? Meanwhile Main Street took on debt that they didn’t understand. Yes they were preyed upon by carpetbaggers baring Payment Option ARM mortgages and Graduated Mortgages but why wouldn’t anyone thoroughly consider the financial ramifications in the biggest purchase of your life? I don’t put more than $1000 into anything without knowing EVERYTHING about it.
I work in IT in the financial industry in the NYC area. I landed a job October 1st, 2008 and made a pay grade jump of 33%. Yes, right in the middle of the most critical time of the meltdown, my employer’s client moved forward with signing contracts with my employer to hire me directly. I feel blessed.
Here is the trick with regards to my personal finances. Instead of inflating my lifestyle to match the increase in cash flow I tightened my belt even further to increase the size of my emergency fund during poor economic times and save for a new home that will be well within my means. I live like I make $35k a year but make more than twice that. some may find $35k a lot of money in parts of the US but I live in the suburbs of NYC so expenses can be high.
You can’t buy happiness but you can most assuredly debt your way to unhappiness.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Best audition so far.
At some level, writing about personal finance (or any self-improvement niche) should be about how well you relate a message to the audience, not how many exclamation points you use or how many bulleted lists you can provide. A.J., you nailed it.
I loved the ERA analogy.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Definitely the best “audition” post so far, in my opinion. Obviously, this personalized post hit a home run (continuing the analogy), since everyone is asking for more details about his situation, etc. I can already relate to him on various levels, which makes me more likely to read any future posts that maybe aren’t so “personalized” to his own financial situation. Thanks!
August 6th, 2009 at 8:30 am
AJ - nice article, it felt a bit like you had more to say but perhaps shortened it after the many comments on the longer posts of the other potential writers.
It’s interesting to watch the reaction to these posts, this wasn’t my favorite and yet for many it was. I recognize that GRS has a strong following amongst those like AJ that are just starting out. I related more to the writers that have seem to have a bit broader life experience. No offense AJ and perhaps that will show in additional posts.
I’m well beyond college years and have children now that have completed college. Each has graduated debt free. I provided minimal dollar assistance (more of the emergency kind). However, we had a strategy, we bought rental homes (yes, they were part of the whole process) and they lived rent free and the money they made renting the other rooms more than paid for all their living expenses and books and even part of the tuition. The profit on the sale of the homes helped with some of the rest of the tuition. Both went to exceptional state universities. My daughter did something even smarter though, she did her first two years at a community college and her finally two years at the university - saved a fortunate!
Finally, they worked, very hard, often at least 30-40hrs/week. I heard all the laments from my peers about my kids having to work, they wouldn’t have fun, might do poorly in school, blah, blah, blah.
Poorly in school - one graduated 3.97, one 4.0! They both have an amazing network of friends and fantastic jobs. They both understand how to manage their time for work and play. On top of that both have thanked me for teaching them some true life lessons AND guiding them to a debt free goal!
It can be done folks (even in education) IF you’re willing to go against the trends of a consumeristic, keep up with the Jones society.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:30 am
A.J., it is so refreshing to hear from another person in the same situation as my husband and me!
Looking back it is so frustrating that so many people(specifically parents, high school teachers, college admissions officers, etc.) dismiss valid financial concerns about the cost of college saying that it is “good debt” and that you won’t have to even think about the loans until after college and your “real” job will more than cover them.
I don’t regret college at all, but it is frustrating being a 20 something with so many directions to send your money (student loans, home down payment savings, 401(k), saving up to start a family)and not enough money to do it all. I look forward to hearing how you go about it all!
August 6th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Great analogy, this post was very interesting and quite helpful. Thank you and take care.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Personal stories are very powerful.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:43 am
I really liked this post and his perspective. I graduated from college a year ago and am working to pay off student debt (although a smaller amount, thank goodness) It seems like the perspective would be a good contrast to the regular postings and provide more variety than two “grown up” posters.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I look forward to reading about your journey to pay down your debt. My fiance and I are both out of college and looking at doing some additional degrees, which will just add to the existing debt we have from school. We realize that debt from college is “good debt” as in the education we gain will appreciate in value over time, but it sure doesn’t feel good when we have our loan statements and high balances hanging over our heads.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:50 am
By far the best post I have read from the guest writers on your list to choose from. very lucid, and written from the heart. All the best AJ.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:50 am
People choose their college to align with their values. Reducing the arguement to employment rates 5 years after graduation does not take into account other benefits such as experience, prestige, connections, location, social life, athletics, extracurricular opportunities, etc. Different schools offer different mixes of these benefits. It is up to each student to decide what he or she wants to get from 4 years of college and what it is worth to them.
AJ had dreamed his whole life of going to this particular college in NYC, so for him, $100k was an acceptable price to pay to take this one and only opportunity to fulfill a lifelong dream. And as often happens when one responsibly pursues a dream, he is seeing rewards come from his choice.
If people only considered “what’s this going to cost me / earn for me” we would have very few people taking risks, becomming entrepreneurs, seeing the world, entering helping professions, purchasing a home, having children or a host of other things that are really more important than money. I think AJ’s college experience serves as an example.
The problem with borrowing is when it is done mindlessly (not thinking abotu what it really means to have $100k in student loans, how it will impact your life after graduation, or how you plan to pay for it). Like so many homeowners and credit card borrowers, taking out student loans because the bank said yes, is irresponsible. But responsible, conscious borrowing does have a proper place in life.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:51 am
AJ, I’m in the same situation except I’m pursuing a master’s degree (fully supported by the school). I went to a state school for undergrad, but still ended up with $25k in debt, mostly because in my field (meteorology) there just isn’t a lot of aid money unless you get noticed by the government. Luckily, I did that, and the government essentially paid for my last two years of school through scholarships and a sweet internship that enabled me to make tons of professional connections.
Great post! I have to agree with the other commenters who have said this is their favorite guest post so far.
August 6th, 2009 at 8:59 am
On the one hand I appreciate the perspective of a young person just out of school, facing a mountain of debt and decisions.
On the other hand, a software engineer doesn’t live in the same world as the rest of us. With that kind of brain and that kind of education, you can get a job in any economy and make more money in your first year than many of us see in 5 years. My sister’s boyfriend is a software engineer; he hasn’t even finished his degree but still hit almost $100k in salary his first year at this company and has gone up since. They bought a house 2x the cost of ours without blinking, and buy brand new furniture for it. They have savings and IRAs and other investments we’ll never be able to touch.
So while I appreciate your perspective, I don’t expect to be able to relate to your experience.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:07 am
This is an extraordinary chain of reasoning:
“I was worried that the public school that I had the opportunity to attend would not provide me with the proper set of life experiences that I needed to be successful in life, and I knew that the school in New York City would be able to give me a unique college experience, and put me in a strong position to succeed.”
I can’t disagree more strongly with this reasoning, but I suspect you need a great deal of life experience under your belt to understand why it’s so off-base.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Good luck!!!! All I can really say.
I added up my student loans so far from just my current school — $23k. Ouch. My co-worker about died when I showed him the number, and got even more squeamish when I told him my projected final total. ($40k to $50k)
While I read a bunch that says student loans are bad, my parents sure couldn’t afford to help me with school!!! Not everyone who wants to go to school can do so without loans. As long as it’s not excessive, i.e. loans paying for pizza and beer, not just tuition and books, it’s alright to me.
One of my big concerns about being “financially literate” at such a young age is that I’ll be afraid to take risks financially. If I have the chance to chase a dream, shouldn’t I do that, no matter the cost? (All within reason I suppose.)
AJ — Thoughts on dream chasing vs. cost? Worth it in more than just the case of school?
August 6th, 2009 at 9:09 am
No offense meant to A.J., but this post does feel like it was written by a recent college grad — it’s full of naivety on so many levels. The lack of consideration of how to pay back $100k in tuition, the idea that a degree would be the the thing that allowed him financial independence rather than hard work and accomplishments, the idea that everyone who didn’t attend a private school in NYC lacks the “proper set of life experiences to be successful”.
They’re all the sort of thoughts I’d expect from someone just starting out on his own, so I can’t fault A.J. for them, and I’m sure his perspectives will widen over the next few years as most people’s do when they start living in the “real world”.
Still though, this sounds very “been there, done that” to me. I got in debt in college (I chose the state school, though). I worked an internship (at a gov’t agency, not wall street) while I attended school. I majored in computer science. I eft school and grew up and got my things together, and so I’ve got a lot in common with A.J., except that I’m five years ahead of him. It feels like it would make more sense for me to be giving him advice rather than the other way around.
I’ve tried not to make my comments the last few days sound like “my review of a potential staff writer” and rather focus on the content of the post, but since A.J.’s post specifically ends with a mention of his “audition”, it felt fair to mention what I’d think of reading his writing regularly.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:15 am
I have been thinking about your question for the last few months actually. Ultimately, I do not regret my decision, and I have a lot of reasons for that… Your question would be a good topic for a *potential* future post.
@Trini (#7):
Again, your question of if I would have taken a middle ground — attending a good state school instead of an expensive private one — is something else that I think about regularly. To make a long story short (again, something that could potentially be a future post) college applications were prohibitively expensive to my family. I only applied to the school I could have gone to for free, and the one in New York City…
@Chett (#8):
In regards to your “Glades to Wall Street” comment, I am actually not from Florida. I grew up in the tri-state area, and finished high school in Florida, as my family needed to move there for a variety of reasons. I only lived there for a few years, and my family still lives there now.
@ebyt (#23):
I liked that article that you linked to. I feel that I have made some mistakes along the way as well. A large chunk of my student loan debt is at a very high interest rate… for all it’s worth, it could be considered credit card debt. There are reasons for this though. I won’t give them away now.
@E (#45):
I definitely don’t make anywhere near close to 100K/year, and I live in the most expensive part of the country. If I am selected as the guest writer, I plan to detail (to some degree of accuracy) where my money goes each month. For now, I will leave it that almost half of my monthly income pays rent and my student loan payments (without paying extra to them).
Thanks for the feedback everyone!
August 6th, 2009 at 9:16 am
My favorite audition post yet. Baseball analogies are always appreciated. AJ is certainly the candidate who is in the most similar position (so far) to my own situation.
While I attended college (also in NYC) on full scholarship and my parents covered my room and board, I then attended a prestigious graduate program, from which I recently graduated, and I’m now $45k in debt. With the job market as it is, I’ve also been unable to find a job yet, which makes things more difficult. The saving grace is that my wife is working, though she is planning on cutting back her hours to go back to school in September.
To those who question the value of spending “so much” on education and who can’t fathom being $100k in debt, remember that there are big differences in cost of living and in salaries between New York and some other parts of the country. I’m shocked when I hear how much people in more rural states pay in housing - a small fraction of what those of us in the New York area pay.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:20 am
I thought this entry was OK. Being that I am 24, I was very interested to see how you were going to approach your submission. I would have much rather read about HOW you are getting out of debt. Maybe even a more detailed reflection on why you made the choices you did, and what you would do differently.
MOST OF ALL, I would have enjoyed a piece about how you are managing your finances in light of the decision you have made (maybe I just wanted to compare them to my own, but that would have been interesting).
Honestly, if you take the headers out, this felt like a long-winded comment someone had posted on GRS… Also, it does matter which private school you went to. Surely not for the reasons you might think - it is important for the GRS readers to get to know you in a personal way… Good luck.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:24 am
Great post. Depending on your bonus, it might only take a year or two!
August 6th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Great post. This is my favorite so far of all the guest posts, but to be fair I identify strongly with this guy. And actually, I thought the baseball analogy was pretty gratuitous.
In your own defense, AJ, people enthusiastically encourage students to take out student loans. Around the time you and I started college, most NYC universities were receiving kickbacks from the loan companies. Financial gurus consistently call college loans “good debt.” And I can’t count how many times my father told me that “student loans don’t matter! Take out more–you have years to pay them back.”
It’s easy to say that we should take responsibility for our actions–of course we should. It’s harder to acknowledge that the culture around us has a serious impact on us. This is true when it comes to eating right and exercising, as well as spending wisely.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:34 am
I totally agree with Caitlin #16.
The baseball analogy was completely lost on me and I felt the writing was hard to follow.
It seems like this kid is not starting out behind as he claims. He finished his degree in 4 years which saved him a year’s worth of tuition considering most college programs now tell you to factor in at least a 9th semester if not more. He got an internship and then a job right away and by doing that he has paid off a considerable amount of the student loans already. There doesn’t seem to be much more to read about from this one. Maybe he should write for Get Rich Quickly.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Even though I’m not at all in a similar position to AJ, I really enjoyed this post. I only wish I’d been focused like that at his age!
On a separate note, while I suspect JD already has both sample articles from each candidate, I’d really prefer if the second go-round was everyone tackling a single subject (i.e. something generic like “When to dip into your emergency fund”). That we could compare apples to apples, and clearly be able to see the different approaches of each candidate.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:43 am
“You will look better having a 3.5 from Podunk U than a 2.5 from MIT.”
Your GPA will be important only twice. 1) Your first job and 2) Grad school. Once you’re past your first job, your experience and certifications (including a BS degree) will be more important than the exact score you got.
Here’s an old joke:
Q: What do you call a med student who graduates with straight Ds?
A: Doctor
August 6th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Being a die-hard Yankee fan, I wish both you and Chien-Ming Wang success in your challenges. I was once in a similar position, though not as drastic. I’ll enjoy reading about your journey.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:45 am
At least you have earning power and are still young. I finished my undergrad with extra money in the bank thanks to generous scholarships and smart financial planning by my parents. I had some minor debt problems in undergrad, but only to the tune of $5000 or so in credit debt.
I decided to move to Los Angeles to attend a very expensive grad school a year after finishing college because I was very dissatisfied with my life. Three years later, I have an MFA, no work, and a debt load that is around $100,000 with a mix of student loans and high credit card debt. Now I’ve graduated, I’m unemployed with no prospects and the banks have started to notice and are shutting down my credit and raising my interest rates. I feel like I am completely trapped.
I have no idea what to do in my current situation besides look through job listings and sending out resumes every day. It is very demoralizing. The only way I have to maintain any semblance of self-worth is to cut my expenses as far as I can, work out regularly, and keep involved in my own creative projects with my copious spare time.
Would I do it again if given the chance? Yes, because I have grown a lot and learned a lot about myself (and continue to). But right now, when I’m nearing the point where I have to shop around my MFA at McDonald’s and Wal-mart because I can’t find any other work, it’s hard to find hope, and it’s hard to see that this will ever get better.
j
August 6th, 2009 at 9:46 am
JD, I think you should have a special writer-candidate faceoff.
Give the same topic to all 4 writers and have each one write about it. Maybe use a question someone sends you or something, so we can see how they handle and write about something that doesn’t come directly from their personal experiences.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Hi,
This is also my favorite guest post so far, perhaps because the writer most closely represents my personal situation.
My question: What % of your income to you allocate to 1) paying off college debt; 2) growing an emergency fund; and 3) investing in the future/401k? I’ve been struggling with the balance - do I “go for it” and try to pay off my debt quickly, thus sacrificing short and long-term financial stability?
Oh, and a comment to fellow posters - people make different choices regarding college. This was AJ’s dream school and he should not have to justify his decision to attend a prestigious institution, just as others should not judge someone else’s decision to get a free ride at a public university that may or may not provide the same level of prestige.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:53 am
I identify the most strongly with this post as well. Here’s why - some stats on the BF and me:
ME:
Student Loan Debt: ~$100K
Credit Card Debt: ~6K
Salary: $40K
The BF:
Student Loan Debt: ~$100K
Credit Card Debt: ~30K
Car Debt: ~$15K
Salary: $92K
This guy is starting from where we’re starting from, which is a refreshing change. The big difference is that neither the BF nor I have debt from undergrad (which seems like a big waste to me). I have a PhD and he has a JD. We each accrued that amount of student loan debt going to state schools.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Congratulations getting a job as a new grad. I have been struggling for 8 months just to get interviews with a recent degree in chemical engineering.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:04 am
It sounds like a lot of people relate to this article but just as many don’t. Again, not every article will please everyone. I count myself in the group of not pleasing BUT I have learned a great amount just from the discussion it caused. In fact I feel there are a couple of posters today who have great starting points for advice. I loved Bear’s way of dealing with the kid’s college expenses and would love to see J Introspectus (whom I’m assuming pursued his dream degree of an MFA) get guided out of his debt and job woes. How do you handle debt (medical bills, school loans, job losses) when your career isn’t a stellar money maker and you don’t believe in bankruptcy? Or, how do you take classes to improve your income potential while in debt - personally, I took a job at a college to get free classes.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Nice introduction post, I hope to see a follow-up story on how you are tackling your mountain of debt, what stategies you are using to achieve it. Do you have a timetable for being debt free? Best of luck!
August 6th, 2009 at 10:10 am
While I admire the author’s ethic and drive, I guess I’m the only one that thinks this was a financially irresponsible decision. I wish him all the luck though.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:11 am
I would like to be out of debt in the next five years, at the most. It is going to take a lot of sacrifice to get there…and I will probably working at least two, maybe three jobs to get there. As it stands now my lenders plan for me to be paying off my debt over the next twenty years, paying over $60K in interest. I do not want that to happen.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:23 am
DH and I were on vacation for over a week so I haven’t yet read the posts by the other guest writer candidates. My only comment, J.D., is when choosing guest writers to keep in mind that the title of your blog is “Get Rich Slowly” not “Get Rich On a Six-Figure Salary” or “Get Rich Working on Wall Street.” Like many other commenters, I prefer to read specifics rather than generalities.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I’m a longtime reader, new commenter:
I’ve been wishing that more analysis of dealing with student loans were included on financial blogs. Since I was one of the first in my family to attend college, I too made the choice to attend a smaller, private school close to home, rather than attend the (more affordable) state school.
I’d love to see more about AJ’s quest to pay off student debt, since that’s the boat I’m living in right now. I’m particularly interested in dealing with student loan debt in relation to applying to buy a house, whether it impacts credit scores, etc.
Thanks, AJ!
August 6th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I really enjoyed the post and also look forward to hearing about your progress as well. I’m a mom with a 20 year old son who is a sophomore in college. He also chose a private college quite a bit more expensive than he (or we) could afford. As someone already focused on living debt free, he chose to sign up for the Army Reserves. With the student loan repayment, tuition assistance and bonuses that come with joining up, he’s not likely to owe much at all when he graduates.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:34 am
@A.J.
Paying off $75k in five years should be just about equally as difficult as buying a BMW 7-series on a five year loan and paying it off on schedule (it costs about that much). I’ve certainly seen plenty of other programmers do exactly that in their 20s working while working a single job (at Google, Sun, Intel, wherever). Either you’re highly underpaid for your private school education and wall street job, or you’re overestimating how difficult this will be. Maybe that’s just the safe bet, but working two or three simultaneous programming jobs, even if only one is full-time, is near impossible. Even taking on occasional contract work is exhausting.
Presumably your debt isn’t much more (maybe even less) than one year’s salary, given the sort of salary you should be earning.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Let’s keep the fight on AJ.
ME: Current Debt $173,557
Two Months ago: $176,700
August 6th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I love the idea that MichealM (@62) came up with. Let’s include all the writers, give them a word limit and a specific topic and have at it. I also have to concur with the GPA comment but I’d add the name of the school as well. After that its not about the GPA/School, its about your work success and contacts in your industry. Note that an overwhelming MAJORITY of Fortune 500 CEOs did not even graduate college!
I am noticing a trend, most of the folks here that liked AJ’s post seem to “like” it. However I noticed in particular with April’s that many loved it - more passionate response it seems.
Some have referenced the presitige, connections of the university, etc., etc., to justify the expense. IMO, education is just like anything else, if you can’t afford it don’t buy it at that institution! There are plenty of options. If you do have to have debt it should NEVER outweigh a reasonable ability to repay. And as I mentioned not everyone has to have debt to get a degree from an excellent university.
I put myself through school, graduated with no debt (hence my influence on my kids no debt direction). Yes I worked like a dog but I have never regretted it!
As an executive that sees resumes all the time from the “prestigious” universities I can tell you they mean VERY little to me. Unless there is a dramatic stand out I usually put them at the bottom of the pile. I have found too often that those graduates are the ones that expect life to be handed to them, that are “high maintenance” employees, that think their first job can be treated like they are still in university, etc., etc. To be frank they are often more trouble than their worth. I would much rather hire an exceptional student that has had to work their way through school for more than just pizza and beer money.
I notice that in several posts that those with the “prestigious” degrees are also unemployed. While it’s unfortunate the reality is that all that prestige, contacts, social life, etc., mean very little in the real world where businesses have to make a profit. The demonstrated ability to work hard and be an exceptional student goes much farther!
August 6th, 2009 at 10:41 am
@Tyler (#73)
Remember, he lives in NYC where the cost of living is much higher. As someone who moved away from that area for a more decent cost of living, I can appreciate that will all his other expenses, paying off 75k, even as a computer programmer, may not be that easy.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Great comment Barb1954 - I 100% agree with you and your advice for JD. Not everyone can relate to paying off big debt with a big income.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Foxie (#50)wrote:
“One of my big concerns about being “financially literate” at such a young age is that I’ll be afraid to take risks financially. If I have the chance to chase a dream, shouldn’t I do that, no matter the cost? (All within reason I suppose.)”
I’ve found ignorance is more costly and that fear has to be faced in either case- Do you prefer fear of the known or fear of the unknown?
Why not take calculated risks? Chase your dreams but manage the costs. Setting yourself up to require 5 years of perfection is very risky.
There are a lot of ways to reduce costs for anything- from going to college to starting your own business to following a hobby. It just requires some creativity, some sacrifices or some additional work. I googled “paying for college” and came up with a 275,000 entries! Wouldn’t it be prudent to take the time to read at least few to look for good ideas?
For college, I would start looking for free money: How many scholarships could I apply for? Especially obscure ones that may have very few applicants. Are there any grants available? Next ask how could I reduce my expenses? How about taking some required non-major classes at a community college? Could you graduate in 3 years + summer CC instead of 4 years?
Also consider how could you earn some extra income? Save the loans as your last resort but still search for lower interest rates as it could save you a lot in interest payments.
-Rick Francis
August 6th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Yes! Finally someone who has the same debt that I do. I’m in his EXACT same shoes.
I never ran up credit card debt, and have never owned a fancy TV, or took an exotic vacation. I don’t own a car or a home, and therefore have no debt from either of those.
My debt is 100% student loans. I have a degree and it was *&*!$% expensive. I’m glad I have it, but I don’t think I fully understood the ramifications of signing student loan papers at 18. Not that I was stupid, I knew I had to pay them back at some point.
I’m glad to see someone in the same boat as me and I hope I see more posts from him in the future.
(If anyone can point out other blogs that are similar to this, please post the links. It would be much appreciated!)
August 6th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Bear:
“Note that an overwhelming MAJORITY of Fortune 500 CEOs did not even graduate college!”
Huh? Where did you find that? That’s just completely incorrect, the overwhelming MAJORITY graduated from WELL KNOWN colleges. USAToday has a good article about how there is a “new trend” to having non-Ivy CEOs (showing how IMPORTANT college was/is) and Time has a list of the Fortine 50’s colleges, only ONE in FIFTY didn’t graduate from college (and, probably unrelated to his education, he has been listed as one of the Worst CEOs of all time).
August 6th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Interesting because A. J. took the opposite course I did. I had the option of attending the home-town school for free (full academic scholarship) or going out of state. At the time I was heavily recruited, would have received some scholarships/aid, and the family could have afforded to send me. I took my Dad’s bribe of a new car on graduation, and stayed at home.
My life would have been very different if I had taken the plunge. My “safe” choice of school led to a lot of other “safe” choices that resulted in a remarkable lack of financial security. With an M.A. from a mediocre school, the only jobs offered to me are teaching or administrative support. Now with 20 years of experience, I am considered “overqualified” to start over in a new field. Currently temping for less than I’ve made since 1996.
If I could go back in time and do it differently, I doubt I would. But I know that had I left home for college, I would have been exposed to new influences and received different advice from people who didn’t have preconceived notions about me. I might have had to take on some debt, but I am sure that my career options would have been broader and more remunerative.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I think I missed something…
There seem to be a lot of posters that insist/believe that AJ is making 6 figures.
I couldn’t find it in his post. It could be that he’s making a more moderate income, especially since he’s just starting out…
August 6th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Hi A.J.
Not sure if you mentioned it before, but how did you pay off $30, 000 already?
August 6th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Great baseball analogy, and all around great post.
I enjoyed reading your perspective on your college decision because I experienced a similar dilemma in choosing a college and a grad school. In both cases I went with the less expensive and less prestigious school. My college choice did not seem to set me back in terms of grad school acceptances, but I’m curious to see how successful my job hunt is when I finish grad school. I can only wonder what would have happened if I had chosen the more prestigious school. At this point, however, I am pleased with my choice and feel fortunate to not be weighed down by student loans.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Good post, very to the point. Great for the 20 something age group audience or anyone else still paying off huge loans.
I think that it is ambitious to pay off $75k in 5 years, but definitely possible. You might have to make some major lifestyle changes, such as eat out less and move to a cheaper place with roommates (I live in Boston and had to do that).
Best of luck and hopefully we’ll hear more from you!
August 6th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Hi, A.J.,
I really enjoyed your post and would love to hear more about your debt-reduction plan. If you do start your own blog, please share the address! Good luck to you!
August 6th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I’ve really enjoyed all the guest posts - this one was a bit different since AJ was just introducing himself instead of covering a financial topic. But it was still good.
For the record, I cannot comprehend how anyone could think that having $100k in student loans (which could have been easily avoided) is not a mistake.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:26 am
These staff writer wannabe posts are filled with lots of jibber jabber, to quote a Boston Legal character. Again, my attention span is pretty short, and these articles are loooooooooooooong.
As far as A.J., I was immediately distracted by, “…who (lenders) decided four years ago that trusting an eighteen year old with this sum of money was a good idea.” Being the contrarian that I am, I kept thinking this guy hasn’t learned anything. If he had, I guess the opening sentence would have been an 18 yr old who thought it was a good idea to borrow this sum of money.
The rest of the article was jibber jabber.
JD, I know these folks wanted to wow you and us with their writing prowess, but it is really all jibber jabber that could have been written shorter without all the flourishes and quite a few cliches. I too am beginning to jibber jabber in my response.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Good luck to you A.J., and of all the guest posts so far, I hope you are chosen as the staff writer.
I recently graduated from BYU in Provo, Utah, a very economically priced school. But that isn’t where I wanted to go. I was also accepted to U.C. Berkeley as an out-of-state student! (Berkeley and BYU, what a contrast!). I desperately wanted to go but there was just no reasonable way to pay for it without taking out 100K+ in student loans. I was devastated when my parents sat me down and told me the truth and made me acknowledge it, and it is now that I realize what a burden debt can be that I am very grateful for my choice.
I wish you the best and hope to be reading more from you in the future.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Genevieve (#76) took the words right out of my mouth. I live in New York City. The cost of living here is prohibitively expensive, despite the salary that I make. I have just enough money to fulfill my financial obligations, but not to get ahead on my student loans. I do not want to spend the next 20 years of my life paying off my school debt, and I need to find a way to make extra income. I doubt I will take on another programming project part time. I agree with you that this would be difficult, but I can be a math tutor, staff writer, or bartender in addition to my day job. I intend to do one or more of these things to make more money to immediately put on my student loan debt.
@Denise (#82)
You are correct. I am DEFINITELY not making anywhere near 6-Figures.
@T.L. (#83)
How I paid of $30K of loans while still in school is really the topic for a post. To give you a brief idea, I spent two of my summers while in school working full time at my firm. Instead of doing what many of my friends did, and spend money on a lot of Stuff I didn’t need, or on going out (which is very expensive in N.Y.C.), I put about three quarters of everything I made during that time on my loans. I know it sounds counterproductive, but I lived in student housing for the summer, and just paid for it from my loans; it needed to be paid for before the summer began, and I obviously didn’t have the money to do that.
@RM (#85)
I do live with a roommate, and plan to do so until I have a reason to do so otherwise. It is a great money-saver.
Thanks everyone!
August 6th, 2009 at 11:28 am
I faced the same choice as the author except I chose the state school. I still ended up with a good job in Manhattan, however I had no debt coming out of school. Would I have preferred the NYC college, yes. But I went to grad school there and was able to do it without loans from the savings I had from my working life.
Congrats on paying off a decent chunk of your debt, and getting your first job in this economy. You should be proud of yourself.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:52 am
At JD: I’d like to second (or third or fourth) the request that the follow-up audition posts be on the same topic - I feel like that would help us all decide who is conveying the most information in a way we can assimilate.
I also second one person’s comment that a fresh graduate is likely better suited to be a commenter on this site than a poster.
At A.J. in #52: I appreciate that college application fees are expensive … but they’re certainly cheaper in the long run than $100k in private school debt. While this is water under the bridge for you, hopefully other young readers will consider that an upfront expense can significantly reduce long-term debt.
But thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us, and good luck to you.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:56 am
I’m also a long time lurker on GRS/recent graduate and it’s great to hear another persons experience handling enormous amounts of debts after graduating from a “prestigious” private university. I hope you get the position A.J., I’d love to here more from you and engage in a dialogue about getting finishing ahead despite liabilities. Best of luck!
August 6th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Sure, NYC is expensive, but I’m out here in the San Francisco area with a ton of software companies and 25 year olds driving around in BMWs. It’s not like rent out here is $350/month for a four-bedroom house, either. These cities also have higher salaries than the low cost of living places that you apparently think I’m comparing to. If it’s financially feasible in SF, it’s financially feasible in NYC, even if NYC is 10% more expensive.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Kat (@80) - I think you are correct. I recall reading that statistic when my oldest was starting college and used the article to talk my son through several life choices. I’ve always been a firm believer that while college has significant value it is not the key to success but one of many possible enablers of success.
I did a quick search but no luck in turning up an article that must have been written at least 8 years ago. Given my memory these days who knows! ; ) Clearly the articles I reference below refute my point so my apologies for my inaccuracy.
I did however locate a couple of interesting current articles:
http://tinyurl.com/n3mtlb
http://tinyurl.com/lgnyyf
I’ve always enjoyed the quote by Steve Jobs, Apple CEO, who dropped out of college: “You have to trust your gut”.
And this quote from Warren Buffett, CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, who I follow for financial advice (who didn’t even want to go to college): “I don’t care where someone went to school, and that never caused me to hire anyone or buy a business”
And then there is the famous dropout, Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft and one of the richest (and most generous) people in the world. Another is Micheal Dell, founder of Dell computers that dropped out, each demonstrating the possibilities of that drive and hard work can accomplish without a college degree.
Do these references devalue a college education? No, but they do clearly show it is not nearly as important where you go but how you participate and contribute while you’re there and what you do with it after.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Well-written but the content is very naive as some posters have pointed out.
J.D. - are any grown-ups in the running for the writing job?
August 6th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
This is a compelling personal story, and I know a lot of people go squishy on the topic of a college education, but I don’t know if the content of the post rises to the level of recommended advice to another person. Maybe it’s working for AJ at some level, but it seems reckless for most people.
Personally, if someone asked me if they should borrow $100k to go to a top school, my first thought would be “if you have to borrow $100,000 to go to a school YOU CAN’T AFFORD IT!”
The other side of this is the fact that we can’t know how much money he’d earn going with a more affordable education. We can pat him on the back and say “great thinking AJ, you did the right thing” because we can see where it may turn out OK for him. But that suggests that school selection is the primary driver in career success–a notion I completely dissagree with.
Sorry for those of you who think this is a good idea, but from the career seat I’ve been in, I’ve seen the fallout of this kind of you-can’t-put-a-price-on-a-good-education mentality in the form of over-indebted 20-somethings, and often carrying into their 30s.
And for what it’s worth, the I-have-to-have-it-at-all-costs line of thinking is what put the housing and mortgage industries in the tank. I think this would be very bad advice in a general sense, especially on a pf site!
August 6th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I feel like I did the optimal thing for me. I feel like what you get out of college(the non-job related items) is just as much a matter of dumb luck as it is the school. I went away, but to a cheap school. Between my parents assistance, work, and scholarships, I graduated without debt. Its been a great advantage. Being 25 having no debt other than the low mortgage and saving for rainy days, golden years, and everything in between sure beats being 75K into debt. Being another software developer in his mid-twenties that is interested in getting rich slowly I would enjoy hearing the story, but as a source of reference and advice I think it will be hard to compete with the sources already out there.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
MichaelM said:
“Your GPA will be important only twice. 1) Your first job and 2) Grad school. Once you’re past your first job, your experience and certifications (including a BS degree) will be more important than the exact score you got.”
This is not true as an across the board statement. As I said in my post: my company looks at your latest GPA (BS, MS, PhD) no matter how long your work history. If your GPA does not meet corporate limits you need VP approval. This is not true everywhere but I cannot tell you how many contractors I work with who want to be hired into my company who say “I was told my GPA wouldn’t matter after a couple years of work and now I can’t be hired without a manager willing to fight their VP for me.” I know of a gentleman last week who didn’t get a job because, after 10 years of work experience, his GPA wasn’t high enough.
And I still contend that a 3.5 from Podunk U will give you a better starting point than 2.5 from MIT, even if it IS just getting into your first job. If it doesn’t matter after that than what were you paying for with that expensive tuition?
Regarding the staff poster position: It sounds like AJ speaks to an audience that JD doesn’t. Therefore he might, especially with guidance from JD, be able to expand an audience beyond what it is now. On the other hand being as young as he is and still in the depths of debt how can we be sure his advice will be valuable? There is a reason we listen to people speaking back to us from the top, because we know what they have achieved.
JD, out of curiosity why can’t you branch out with a sister site that is just edited by you where you can include ALL of these writers (perhaps each of them could have a day of the week)? Time? Interest? You just don’t think it would be a good idea? I could see it being interesting if you have writers strategically picked for their perspective (AJ paying off debt, a mom feeding a young family, a professional nearing retirement…) Like I said, not second guessing, just really curious about your vision and why that wouldn’t fit.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
As someone who chose to go to a state school for both my undergrad AND graduate degree, you definitely alienated me with the implication that the “proper set of life experiences… needed to be successful in life” cannot be gotten at less prestigious/public schools.
I don’t fault you for choosing a prestigious private school if that was your best fit, but please don’t insult the life experiences of those of us who made other decisions. I wouldn’t trade my public university experiences for anything, and I had enough “life experiences” to get into my (highly competitive) graduate program AND a job.