How much should you save for retirement? Carla dropped me a line because she’s puzzled where the standard “save 10% of your income for retirement” advice originated. She’s afraid that ten percent isn’t nearly enough. Carla writes:
The financial experts always say to save 10% for retirement (for example, in your review of The 1-2-3 Money Plan). Buy why 10%? It doesn’t make sense to me.
I’m 25. If I retire at the normal age of 65, that will give me about 40 years of full-time wage earning. Let’s say I plan to die at 85. That’s 20 years of retirement. I’m assuming that I’ll be fully funding my own retirement (not counting on any sort of pension or social security).
How on earth would saving 10% for 40 years cover your expenses for 20 years? I know that expenses should be a bit lower in retirement, and I know that the money will make some gains due to being invested, but really? How the heck could that ever add up?
The short answer to Carla’s question is that, in general, if you start saving early, and if you invest aggressively, 10% can often be enough. But there are a lot of things that could go wrong, too. The stock market could drop nearly 40% in the year you choose to retire (as it did in 2008). You might suffer a catastrophic illness. The country might experience hyperinflation.
Each of these things are unlikely, but they are possibilities. Because of this, many people save more than the 10% commonly recommended by experts.
Why 10%?
I think that the experts urge 10% because it’s a target people can understand, one that doesn’t seem too intimidating. It’s a convenient financial rule of thumb. My own opinion — and I’m sure the experts would agree — is that you should save as much as possible for retirement. Columnist Liz Weston has a great suggestion:
Save 10% for basics, 15% for comfort, 20% to escape. This rule of thumb works pretty well if you start to save for retirement by your early 30s. Saving at least 10% of your income ensures you won’t be eating pet food. Fifteen percent should get you a more comfortable living, while 20% gives you a shot at an early retirement (and yes, you get to count employer contributions as part of your percentage). Wait just a decade to start, though, and you’ll need 15% for basics and 20% for comfort; an early retirement may not be in the cards.
Tonight I asked my wife how much she’s setting aside for retirement. Her salary is nearly $60,000 a year. She’s setting aside $18,000 herself, and her employer is contributing $3,600. In other words, Kris is saving nearly a third of her gross income. But Kris hasn’t always saved this much. She didn’t save much at first, but has increased the amount she saves as her income has increased.
When you’re 25 like Carla, you’re probably near the low point of your earning potential. This is a huge reason that I’m advocate of banking your raises into savings accounts. In general, people earn more as they get older. Don’t use salary increases to fund lifestyle inflation, but instead use that money to save. It may take a few years, but eventually you can set aside 25% or more, just like my wife.
The power of compounding
Even if you set aside 25% of your income, though, how can that possibly be enough to cover your needs during retirement? If you’re worried about how much your investments can actually earn over time, take a look at two past articles:
Briefly, compounding can (and does) supply huge returns. These returns are magnified the longer your money generates the returns. That is, $1000 invested at 10% for twenty years doesn’t just earn double the amount you would earn if the money were invested for ten years.
Playing with this compound interest calculator, the first scenario generates $2593.74 while the second produces $6727.50. (And leaving the money there for 40 years would produce $45,259.26!) There’s a reason financial advisers urge people to begin investing early. Returns are magnified with time.
Are 10% returns realistic? Perhaps. Although even the best CD rates aren’t returning rates that high now, as the article above demonstrates, the average long-term return on U.S. stocks is roughly 10%. This is what stocks have returned in the past.
Making the most of your money
Having said that, there are some important things to remember.
First, as mutual fund advertisements are eager to tell you, “Past returns are no guarantee of future results”. Just because the stock market has returned about 10% in the past doesn’t mean it will do so in the future. (Warren Buffett has said that he expects stocks to offer much more modest returns over the next century.)
Second, average is not normal. Yes, it’s true that the U.S. stock market has an average annual return of about 10%. But that doesn’t mean that it returns 10% every year. Some years — like 2008 — the market drops by 39%. Some years — like 2009 — the market grows by 18%.
Here are a few keys to obtaining steady returns from your investments.
- Have a plan. Develop an investment plan built around your age, your goals, and your circumstances. Ask yourself how much risk you’re willing to take. Some people are willing to take on greater risk in order to have a chance at higher rewards. Whatever the case, take the time to draft a plan that makes sense. Refer to this plan whenever things become confusing. Reminding yourself of your plan can keep you from overreacting — in good times and in bad.
- Don’t be an emotional investor. I’ve heard from a lot of people who invested near the top of the stock market in 2007 — and then sold last winter. This is buying high and selling low. It’s a sure way to lose your shirt. When the market tanks, don’t panic. When it’s riding high, don’t get caught up in the euphoria. Have a plan. Keep making your contributions. Thing long term and ignore the short-term noise — no matter how loud the noise might be.
- Don’t raid your retirement. It can be very tempting to raid your retirement account to buy a new home or to take a trip to Europe — or even to put food on the table when you’re out of work. This is usually a bad idea. When you tap into retirement early, you’re subject to taxes and penalties — and you’re robbing from your future self. You’re robbing not just the money you take, but also the returns it might have generated over the years.
- Make regular contributions. Get in the habit of saving for retirement by investing regularly. Make it automatic, if you can. The best way to do this is to enroll in an employer-sponsored program and have the money taken from your paycheck. This way the process is invisible to you. Regular contributions to a retirement plan allow you to take advantage of dollar-cost averaging.
- Take advantage of free money. If you have access to an employer-sponsored retirement plan, use it. When your employer matches your retirement contributions, it’s like getting free money. There are few better deals in the financial world. (Are there any better deals?)
Each of these actions can help you obtain better long-term results from your retirement savings. But the real key is to start now. The sooner you begin, the more time you have to accomplish your goals.
How much should you save?
Retirement planning is a complicated subject, and I’ve only scratched the surface here. There are a lot of variables I haven’t covered (taxes, inflation, etc.). Carla is way ahead of the game by asking these questions now.
So, how much of your income do you save for retirement? Do you save 10% like Carla? Do you save 25% like my wife? How have you arrived at this amount? Do you plan to save more in the future? I’m especially interested to hear from those who are in or near retirement. Do you wish you had saved more when you were younger? What would you do differently? What advice can you offer folks like Carla who are just starting out?
This article is about Ask the Readers, Planning, Retirement, Savings Friday, 18th September 2009 (by J.D. Roth)


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September 18th, 2009 at 5:06 am
Right now I’m investing about 17% of my gross income into my retirement accounts. This is probably a high percentage for a 24 year old but I feel that it’s important to save and invest early to ensure I reasonable retirement. Thinking that you’ll save later is dangerous b/c you never know what could pop up and prevent you from doing so in the future.
-Gen Y Investor
September 18th, 2009 at 5:10 am
The key to the 10% rule of thumb is that, as you mentioned, you have to start early. If you start saving at age 40, 10% isn’t going to be close to enough.
Regardless, people have different goals for what they want retirement to look like. Some will spend less during retirement than they did while working. Others will spend a lot more.
For me personally, from ages 17-23 I saved approximately 50% of my earnings. Since then, a much bigger portion has gone to funding my fledgling business, so it’s been closer to 10%. (Though that varies by year.)
September 18th, 2009 at 5:13 am
We’re saving more than 10%, although I can’t actually give you a precise number. I have a defined-benefit pension, which I’m not exactly sure how to count. On top of that, we save 10% of our gross income each year. I estimate that this represents somewhere between 15-20% of our income.
We’re doing this amount because we can, and because it gives us options later. I wouldn’t be saving quite this aggressively if money was tighter. For us, we still get to enjoy a few luxuries like eating out once in a while, cable TV, small vacations, etc. Personally, I think anything past 10% should be balanced against enjoying life NOW, because you never know if you will be around to enjoy your retirement.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:18 am
We’re currently saving approx 16% of gross income in a fund specifically for retirement. We decided to not aim for the 20% and instead pay down the house faster (and at 3 years in to our mortgage we owe what they said we would at the end of 5).
We’re in our early 30s, so mathematically it probably would have made more sense to put that against retirement and get the compounding, but psychologically it made sense. I’ve seen too many people downsized in their 50s and if you still have a mortgage, that can made a tough job search even harder.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:25 am
Also, keep in mind that the 10% will only be your own portion of funds, you will also get things like social security (or CPP/OAS in Canada). In Canada the CPP/OAS plus the tax credits you get end up making it so that you won’t starve/freeze to death. Your 10% that you put away your whole life is for the extras.
I’m currently saving 12% of my income for retirement, and I purchased a house which will hopefully be paid off when I’m 45 . . . I turn 30 this year. Here’s hoping that the universe plays nice with my plans.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:29 am
The stock market dropping 40% should have very little effect on someone who is about to retire. By that time, they should be heavily into “safer” territory. They might still have some things in stocks, but most of the funds should be in CD’s, savings, bonds, etc — not big returners but much safer than the market.
Of course, “should” is the big key word there. It’s critical to understand what kind if risk your funds are exposed to and re-evaluate periodically. We rebalance our funds once a year.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:36 am
We — 48 and 41, one income — try to max out our available retirement accounts every year, so that’s $15,500 for me + some corporate match, and $5k in each of our IRAs. Let’s round the numbers to about 25% of gross total annual income.
That’s a misleading number, though, because some years, we’ve simply moved regular taxable savings into tax-advantaged retirement accounts.
We fully expect to have years between now and retirement when we save less money overall, because of lower incomes (job market and career changes) and higher expenses (kids). I’m grateful my dad encouraged me to put retirement savings away from a relatively young age — mid 20s.
We have a diversified portfolio, and we changed nothing during the recent roller-coaster rides. After reading this article, I just asked DH (MBA, former financial planner) to look at rebalancing the portfolio; we’re due. We lost a lot of money the free fall, but most of it was passive earnings, not our principle, so . . . it’s been ugly but hasn’t made saving seem pointless.
We probably won’t retire with pensions, and we don’t have wealthy relatives, so what we save and invest will be what we have when we retire. That’s a sobering thought, no matter how much money we put away.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:37 am
I’m 25. Currently, I think I’m at about 9%, but that will change as soon as my employer match kicks in. After that, between contributions and match, I’ll be just under 20%. In addition, I also have an HSA that brings my “untouchable” gross income to 25%.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:45 am
We save around 15-20% of gross income. That’s quite a bit but I’d like to retire earlier rather than later.
As the Piper (#2) said - the percentage is heavily dependent on when you start saving. When you plan to retire is also important as is the retirement lifestyle you are shooting for. There are a lot of important variables.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:49 am
@Jason (6):
You’re absolutely right - plus, it’s not like people need to sell ALL their stock portfolio the day they retire. When I reach retirement age I expect to have a hefty sum in stable investments, but will still have 20%-30% in stocks. If I happen to retire in at the bottom of the next crash, the fact that my stocks are low shouldn’t make a difference. They can sit there regrowing during my retirement just like they grew during my working life.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:57 am
I am so happy for all of you young savers! What a great start in life! I wish I had done that well in my youth, and I am working to train my child so that she won’t be in my shoes.
I just turned 40. My employer (I’ve been with them for over a decade) has a very generous 403(b) program, which it funds at 10% of my income. Unfortunately, my wages were pretty low for several years, and I was not good at living within my income, so I often did not save much myself (the good news is that I didn’t borrow against the little I saved at any time). I am now setting some money aside in the 403(b) myself in addition to what my employer is doing, but honestly, when I look at how little has been saved over the years, it looks like I will never retire.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:59 am
I’m one of the people who started saving late–I went to grad school, so in my 20s my annual income maxed at about $8K, and then I got what I thought was just a temporary job while I looked for something better, so I didn’t start with the 401(k) right away. So right now I’m putting 20% into that, plus I have a retirement plan at work into which I put something over 6% and my employer puts about the same (that, at least, I’ve been in since the beginning, because it’s not optional). And I’m making maximum contributions to a Roth IRA using some money from my parents.
I’m basically trying to save as much as I can now, because I really DON’T want to be doing this job until I’m old and gray, and everything I can think of that I’d rather do pays a lot less.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:05 am
15% to 401(k) + 3% match + 2% to Roth IRA = 20%
I’ve found this to be easily sustainable. What’s been difficult is the saving outside of this for more immediate goals like a home, car, and making sure my emergency fund is well stocked.
I’m currently living on about 45% of my salary and it does hurt a little, but it’s become a lot easier as I’ve begun to enjoy a life a minimalism that does not require a lot of ’stuff’ to glean happiness.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:06 am
I hear more and more comments from some pretty savvy people lately that some financial advisors are pushing their clients to oversave. Although I don’t mind erring on the side of caution and having more at retirement, these pundits do have an important point to consider.
Right now my paycheque is allocated in the following manner: 29% goes towards various retirement strategies, 17% goes to my nanny (crazy expensive right now, but not for long), and 17% goes towards my mortgage. Thats 63% of every paycheque - but when I retire, none of these expenses will exist anymore!!
That means that to live as comfortably as I do now, all I need to save for is a target income of only 37% of what I am making right now as a 35 year-old. If you read most calculators, they tell you to save enough to make about 80% of your income each year in retirement.
And this doesn’t even take into consideration the government pension plans (here in Canada it’s CPP and OAS), plus we get free healthcare. Plus, there is no way I want to live in my 3-bedroom house when I retire, so downsizing will likely put another chunk of change in my pocket. And though this will not affect my own retirement numbers, some people may have an inheritance - a windfall that can significantly impact their retirement figures.
The amount of money you think you need to retire comfortably on plays a HUGE role in the calculations that determine what you need to save each year to retire on.
I read an amazing article comparing two men - one retired and one not, which illustrated my points above. Basically the retired guy was living way more comfortably than the working one on a fraction of the income, because most of his expenses were gone. I’ll see if I can dig up that link - it was pretty illuminating.
Anyway, my point is that we may not actually have to save as much as many of the financial calculators suggest. The magic retirement number is a tricky one, but may not be as hard to reach as you might think. So if you’re not there yet, don’t panic ;-).
September 18th, 2009 at 6:26 am
I’m 29 and max out my 401k (16,500), roth IRA (5,000) and my employer kicks in a generous 6% (5,300). That amount equals about 30% of my gross income. However, I’m not vested in any of my employer contributions for another 6 months.
While I have done some calculations for the future, I decided to max out since I’m fortunate to be in such a position to do so and still have funds left over for meeting other goals (vacations, etc…).
September 18th, 2009 at 6:27 am
How much (the %) you should save is highly dependent on your age, your retirement age, your life expectancy, your current savings, how your savings are broken up across accounts, exactly how much income you’ll need in retirement, and the income sources you’ll have in retirement. Your retirement savings shouldn’t be dependent on what you’re making before retirement - it should depend on how much income you’ll need in retirement.
I put a lot of work into the calculator. You won’t see it because it’s behind the scenes, but it was a long process of hundreds of thousands of Monte Carlo simulations. Using that method takes the variability of stock market returns into account.
You shouldn’t base your retirement on a simple rule of thumb (like saving 10% of your income). It’s much more involved than that. And depending on your situation, it probably won’t be enough. For example, if I ignore Social Security in my own retirement calculation, I should be saving 20% of my income right now. That 10% rule could be devastating depending on what you really need in retirement.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:27 am
I found the link to the article I mentioned in my comment. Keep in mind, this is a Canadian situation so the government pension numbers are likely different, but still comparible.
http://www.cyberclass.net/hardworking.htm
I think it’s worth a read.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Rules of thumb in personal finances are often rules of “dumb.” In this situation I would run a spending budget based on a retirement lifestyle that you would accept, using today’s dollars. Then run present and future calculations to determine how much you need to save and invest each year to provide that income when you retire. If you use inflation protected investments, you can take inflation out of those equations. The answer you get may not be 100% accurate, but it will be a lot more accurate than a 10% rule of thumb. FYI- There are tools that will run these numbers for you.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:33 am
I just re-read that article and realized that it is a little bit political. Sorry about that - I didn’t mean to inject politics into a financial forum. I just think it highlights the differences between retirement and working expenses well using a real-life example.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:36 am
What I want to ask is, why would anybody want to retire anyway? What’s the big deal about saving up to “live” when you’re old and decrepit?
I’m 41, a small business owner, and working in a job that I love so much, surrounded by such lovely people, that I firmly hope to keel over at work. I hope I never retire. If I did, I would probably die of boredom in a matter of months, if not weeks.
I’m sorry, I just don’t understand this whole “retirement” concept at all. As far as I’m concerned, I’ll be working until the day I die. And that’s great!
(For what it’s worth, I do have substantial savings.)
September 18th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Rika: I agree completely. I don’t intend to retire, per se. That said, I’m sure a time will come when I won’t be able to work a full work week. And at some point, I probably won’t be able to work at all.
That’s a big part of why I save.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:42 am
I think that the experts urge 10% because it’s a target people can understand, one that doesn’t seem too intimidating. It’s a convenient financial rule of thumb.
I think that’s right. I also think it’s horrible advice. Oversimplified rules of thumb do more harm than good. Someone earning $30,000 will struggle to save 10 percent. Someone earning $100,000 should be able to do it in his or her sleep. It is absurd for people in these greatly varying circumstances to be advised to pursue the same saving goal. This is an outdated rule of thumb (it was adopted at a time when the idea of middle-class retirement was a new concept).
My own opinion — and I’m sure the experts would agree — is that you should save as much as possible for retirement.
My take is that you should aim to maximize the value you obtain from the money you earn. There are circumstances in which spending offers a greater value proposition than saving and there are circumstances in which saving offers a better value proposition than spending. I was saving 80 percent of post-tax income when my wife and I were both bringing in solid incomes and we had a paid-off mortgage and no kids. Today, when I am trying to get an internet writing business off the ground, I think it makes perfect sense to save zero. My most important “investment” is my business and that is where the money should be going.
Rob
September 18th, 2009 at 6:45 am
JD-
I hate to get off topic, but this quote stood out to me: “Tonight I asked my wife how much she’s setting aside for retirement.”
I know you and your wife have separate finances and it works for you but it still baffles me. You’re supposed to be a team, a partnership with common goals. How in the heck can common goals be achieved if you don’t even know what she’s saving for retirement (and vice versa)? Again, not an attack on you or your relationship but I really do believe separate finances for lifelong partners is futile. In the end, it’s all both of your anyways, might as well plan along the way with that mindset.
I’d love to see a more in-depth post on this issue that includes tax and legal implications. Couples like yourself, while having separate finances, really don’t under the law. For the most part, from what I understand, all of your assets including retirement accounts are jointly yours.
September 18th, 2009 at 6:46 am
I am 29 and my husband is 28. Both of us just finished our PhD’s. We had enough savings during Grad school but no saving towards retirement until a month back.
My husband works as a Scientist at a start-up that does not have a 401k match. I work as a Postdoc at a University for 6 months. Again, I am not eligible for a 401k option. Together our income (pretax) is ~110K
My husband started investing in Vanguard Star Fund Roth IRA as well as unmatched 401k with his company. I do not have any contribution and most of my income goes into saving for a downpayment.
This is the question I have. Should I start an IRA of my own since I cannot invest in a 401k? Can we contribute seperately towards the same Start fund that my husband contributes to? The usual 10%–does it apply for an individual or to a family?We do not have kids as of now
JD or anyone can help me answer that.
Thanks!!
September 18th, 2009 at 6:53 am
Right now my husband and I are saving around 30% (not including any comany matches) of our total income, but it is not all for retirement. Just for reference, I am 25 and he is 26.
We save 10% to my company’s 401K/profit sharing plan and my employer matches 3% (the profit sharing portion I received last year was worth an additional 2-3% of my salary). After graduating with a master’s degree my husband was unable to find a job so he went back to school. We currently save about 10% of our income every month so we can pay cash for his tuition (he works around 12 hours a week outside of going to school). The other 8-10% is spread over our EF, mission trip fund, and miscellaneous savings.
Paying cash for his third degree has been a great idea for us. It means that by the time we turn 40 (and possibly before), we will be completely debt free (including our mortgage).
September 18th, 2009 at 6:58 am
SunandShine, you cannot contribute to your husband’s IRA.
You certainly could open up your own Vanguard IRA though, and–should you want to–invest in the same fund.
The general assumption on the 10% rule is that each earner is saving 10% of their income. That said, as we’ve been discussing, the 10% number is just a rough guideline in the first place.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:00 am
I have a question that I have never seen answers to (or even asked I suppose) in all of the finance blogs and books I have read through:
Both my wife and I are in public education, and have retirement pensions set up, so that when we each retire, we’ll be taking home roughly 70% of our ending salaries (with cost of living adjustments annually) for as long as we live… We are still many years away from retirement (I’m 30, she’s 29).
Does the suggestion of 10% savings for retirement hold true in our case, or the case of anyone with a similar pension? We are currently saving nothing towards retirement, and are paying down debt like crazy (with great success so far). Once we’re down to only our mortgage for debt, we intend to add money in for retirement.
Any thoughts or suggestions from someone in a similar boat?
Thanks!
Mike
September 18th, 2009 at 7:04 am
I’m 32 and currently am saving:
14% to 403(b) + 5% match + 15% to savings acct + 3% to Roth IRA = 39%
I’ve never really added that up like that before, and am thrilled to see the final tally! My husband is saving in pretty much the same ratios, though a bit different investment mix. Funny to think that I’m saving almost 40% of my income, and still don’t feel like it’s enough for retirement. I guess partly because I work in non-profit, so my salary is a bit lower than the marketplace (and that of friends), but I do enjoy my work, and that is worth the salary trade-off.
Like Rika, I don’t expect to fully retire as our parents are doing…their lives look a little boring to me. What I do hope to do is eventually pare my work week down to 2-3 days, and spend the rest of the time how I choose - volunteering, long walks on the beach - whatever.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:05 am
I save 15% of my income which I started at age 22. My aim for retirement was the point at which my interest made per year would equal or slightly exceed my salary at that time.
Inputs I used were 4% avg increase in salary, 7% average portfolio return and 15% of salary saved over a 40 year time frame.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:06 am
Once you add all ours up and account for hubby’s company match, we’re currently saving about 17% of our income for retirement (one 401K and two Roth IRAs; I don’t currently have access to an employer retirement account but I’m hoping that will change in the next year). We’re both 28 and also just started saving nearly as much (a little over 14%) towards the down payment on our next house.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:07 am
I am currently saving 31.68% of my gross into a non-matching 401K(Which is very close to the maximum IRS allowed yearly contribution of $22K for age 50 +)…plus $300 a month into a mutual fund.
I started late even thinking about retirement…and I’m extremely anxious to the point of actually wishing
I would conform to family history of the men mostly dying between 60-65…I just don’t think I will have enough to live with dignity if I live much longer than that(I’m 52 now).
Being alone with no family adds to that anxiety,plus
the fact that unlike common beliefs that expenses will
tend to go down in retirement..I’m living so ”LBYM ” that
my expenses can only go up…not down.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Because I’m sprinting to the finish line, I’m currently saving the minimum to get my company’s match and maxing out the government retirement plans. However, once the primary residence mortgage is paid off at the end of this year, 40 to 50% of my gross income will go into various savings and retirement accounts.
I’m not a fan of rules-of-thumbs and averages and all that because many of them aren’t clearly enough, yet people think they’re all set if they follow them. That false sense of security is dangerous. For instance, the rule of thumb is to have 3 months’ of living expenses set aside as an emergency fund. Currently, the average unemployment length is almost double at 25 weeks.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:23 am
MrP and I have been saving approximately 20% of gross since we were 30. I saved around 8% in my 20s, when I was going to grad school. At some point I’d like to increase our retirement savings, but right now the remainder of our savings is allocated to college funds for our children’s education.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:25 am
@ Rika #17 - Retirement doesn’t necessarily mean doing nothing all day but playing chess in the park with other senior citizens. For some, retirement means the financial freedom to pursue other goals.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:27 am
One thing financial planners never seem to mention is the potential need for long term care. My father-in-law worked until he was almost 80 and was in good health. But he was diagnosed with cancer several years into his “retirement” and while his mind was sharp, his body deteriorated to the point that he needed nursing home care. Home care for the nine months that he waited for a bed to become available was ten thousand dollars a month. That doesn’t include the cost of home visits from a nurse and an occupational therapist plus the cost to renovate the bathroom to make it more accessible for him.
Luckily my father-in-law had saved for retirement and could afford everything he needed.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:34 am
I am 24, married, with 2 kids, and own a modest home. My husband is finishing his MBA, so his income is low, but we expect it to increase quite a bit when he’s finished. We have a decent emergency fund (3+ months), and our only debt is our mortgage, which we are prepaying ~350/mo. We save 8% plus a 4% match in my husband’s 401k. I stay at home with our boys. We are only able to do this because we live very simply — old cars, house repairs ourself, eat at home, etc.
After my husband finishes school and gets a better paying job, we intend to pre-pay our mortgage quite a bit more, finish up several lingering house projects (like adding a floor to the concrete, and walls in our master bath), and increase our 401k contributions.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:34 am
We’re all different - different salaries, different debt levels, different expenses. Like you said - make your savings regular - that’s important - save something every month. But I’d also add - don’t save til it hurts. Make sure you have a little cushion in there for fun. Some people over save for retirement and can’t enjoy the moment.
My 90 year old grandmother died a few months ago. My dad and I were discussing her expenses. Basically she received Social Security and a small window’s pension that was linked to my grandfather’s pension (he died 20 years ago). But my grandmother had such low expenses. She had a nice home - paid for since the mid-70s. She just had to keep up taxes and maintenance (much of which my dad took care of). She paid for basic cable, power, water, and maybe eating out once a week. She never bought clothes and she no longer drove. In other words her expenses were ridiculously low. Of course when she and my grandfather were retired in their 60s they traveled a lot and lived it up - which meant a bigger monthly budget. But as they aged expenses got less and less.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Peter (23) beat me to it, but I also was surprised by the sentence about asking Kris what she’s saving. I don’t remember a post in the past year or two of you explaining why you keep your finances separate. Maybe you could do a post on that sometime? I too would like to know more about the tax implications, etc. (I’m genuinely curious about why and how it works for you both.)
In answer to how much we’re saving… I didn’t have any PF education or role-models growing up, so a.) I didn’t start saving until I graduated from college and b.) I got into debt in college. Right now, at 23, I’m digging myself out of that debt slowly but surely, and while I’m at it I’m contributing about 5% of my income, plus a 3% employer match for a total of around 8% or so. (Total 6% in SIMPLE IRA, ~2% in a Roth) The rest is spent between bills, debt, short-term savings and sanity spending money. Once I hit a certain milestone in debt reduction (this Dec, I hope!), I’m planning on upping it to a 10% total, and then continuing to go from there as more debt gets paid off.
He, at 27 with just very low car and student loans saves closer to 20% or so. No employer match however. We graduated a semester apart, so we’ve both been saving for about a year and a half or so now.
And I guess that is why I’m curious about you and Kris keeping your finances apart/you having to ask how much she’s saving. We’ve found (not even married yet) that at least being aware of where both incomes are going works great for us. We don’t have combined accounts at this point (considering one for household stuff), but are very often discussing progress of shared and personal financial goals, spending, saving, etc.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:48 am
I’m 43 years old & make $47,500/year and have 10% go into a 403B and 6% (plus 3% matched) going into a TIACREFF here at work. I also contribute $5000/year into a ROTH IRA. My monthly expsenses are fairly low (single and not looking to get married), house is paid for, car in good running order, a $5000 Emergency Fund and I have no debt at all. I feel pretty good about this, but always feel like I could/can do more. What I DON’T have is a good beefy ‘regluar’ savings account. So what I am actively doing now is beefing that up, spreading them out in CD ladders on ING. Not much so far, but I’m trying. But — I feel that you can ALWAYS do more than what you are currently doing. If anyone has any other advice for me, I’d love to hear it!
September 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
I sooo disagree with this comment “Don’t raid your retirement.. even to put food on the table when you’re out of work.” This is about the ONLY reason you would want to touch your retirement savings.
NEVER feel bad or guilty when you HAVE to do to put FOOD on the table for you or your family, do what you NEED to do.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
I currently invest 7% of my gross income. With my employer match of 5% that puts me at 12% total. This figure has fluxuated over the last five years, but I’m pretty much set on 7% until I can become debt free. Once that happens I will bump my contribution to the max and probably open up a roth IRA.
I’m 29, I started saving for retirement at 24. I don’t count on getting any money from anyone else, so I don’t think about social security or my government pension.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:56 am
@Peter and Rae
Though Kris and I do keep separate finances, I had a fairly good idea of what she was saving even before I asked her. I knew that she saved at least 25% of her income. But I also knew that she’d been crowing lately that she was saving even more. Last night over dinner, we worked exactly how much that meant.
As for why we keep separate finances, I’ll point to this oldie from the archives: Which should you choose: Joint or Separate finances? Perhaps this is a topic I should revisit. Our finances are still very much separate, but there has been a sort of strange merging over the past couple years, but just in certain corners of our finances.
I know that separate finances can seem baffling to some folks. Trust me, though, that it’s perfectly possible to save for common goals and all that other stuff even without joint accounts. In fact, to us the notion of joint finances seems strange.
As I always say: Do what works for you.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:59 am
We’re at about 15% for retirement savings, but we also “save” in other ways like paying down our mortgage early, learning to live well below our means and trying to come up with alternate sources of income.
I think those issues are also important, possibly more so than listening to the old conventional wisdom of 10%, especially considering that is probably from the “good old days” when people expected 12% annual returns from the stock market.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:07 am
I ran a rough excel calculation, and 10% starting at age 25 is exactly enough to retire at 67. But there are a lot of assumptions in there.
My vision is to retire when the last of my (as yet unborn) children head off to college. My wife and I save about half of our income.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Retirement can be anything you want it to be. All of my parents have retired and none is bored or sitting at home. My Moms retired at 65, my Dads waited until their 70s (there are step-parents). Mom and step-Dad have two houses that they travel between each year. Mom worked the unpaid equivalent of a full-time job the first three years of her “retirement” at the charity in which she’s been involved for 40+ years. My step-Dad the banker stays active in Rotary (District Governor level) and advises start-up banks he admires pro bono. They’ve taken multiple trips abroad and now mostly bring the grand-kids to the lake house for their fun (plus all the Rotary entertaining at both houses). Dad and step-Mom just retired this Spring and are starting to increase their travel but are mostly relaxing for the first times in their lives. They seem happier than I’ve ever seen them.
The retirement I’m planning will have little resemblence to theirs but it won’t be boring. How I prepare will be different from their plans, but the key is to have a plan. Have a plan for how you will spend your time and have a plan for how you will pay for it. If you love your work and want to do it until you drop, have a plan for when you drop. If you want to retire at 40 have a plan for the next 45 years. Save, invest, work - just have a plan and execute it.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:09 am
We save 12% for retirement, not including matching. I have been saving for retirement since I was 21, and have been saving for 10 years now. We did save more, but that dropped since my husband left his job to be a SAHD.
We have over the years come to the belief that due to our high medical bills retirement for us will be used to cover the increased cost of medical care and give us a bit of financial freedom. In my field I have found there is discrimination against older workers. I am anticipating this for both of us, so our retirement fund will allow us to keep working, but at lower pay.
I believe these “rules of thumb” are hogwash and most articles on the topic will have you believe even if you were saving 100% of your income it still isn’t enough. I also believe in this day and age to be able to retire and not draw in any money is just not feasible.
Perhaps I read Rob Bennett’s website too much.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:10 am
@J.D. Thanks for the link - that’s a great breakdown of why you do it and a simple—but good!—list of pros and cons to consider. Guess I didn’t search the site enough.
We fall into a very similar situation as the two of you. I think our current issue is working out a good system of how to split the shared expenses. We generally swap the major bills every month, and then keep track of food and household stuff and even it out at the end of the month (usually one or the other of us will have purchased most of the groceries so the other will transfer some $). I’m starting to think that a joint account that we both dump the monthly expenses into (but keeping everything else separate) would help streamline that process though - and help us stick to the budget a little better. Then there’s the argument of too many accounts though. *shrug* Something to keep working on/thinking about.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:17 am
No matter what amount of money is saved for retirement, one must know for your money to out live you, one can not withdraw more then 4%-5% annually during retirement. So, if one desires $110k(5%) annually during retirement, then there needs to be $2.2 million saved. Assuming annual growth rates of 10% during retirement. I don’t think $110k is far fetched for living cost 35-50 years from now…
Now how do we get there? For example lets say you start with an IRA of $10,000, your 25 and plan to work untill your 65, assuming you never get a raise, and you make 100,000k.
$10,000 intitial investment at 10% annual return for 40 years would yield?
$1,490,000
now deduct 5% a year in retirement. Question is can you live on $74,500 forty years from now?
Note: most retirees spend more annually in retiremnt than they ever earned in a year. We all have grandparents, they are hte best reference we have, so talk with them and ask them how much they spend?
Here is a perspective for you, somewhere there is someone living on 80% of what you make yearly, and they are living just as comfortably as you are - Save as much as possible - post debt of course!
September 18th, 2009 at 8:19 am
I’m 30, earn just under $100k / year, and am saving 45% of my gross pay for retirement (very difficult after taxes!). Until last year, I drove a 13 year old car, have little furniture, no television service, etc. Some people might find this to be an unbalanced approach, with not enough money spent enjoying life, but I would contend that I have different priorities — in fact, financial independence is my very highest priority. I spend around $3-4k / year on travel and buy excellent groceries (I love to cook), play music and games regularly for entertainment, and live like many of my friends who earn ~ $35-40k / year.
Using a 4% annual withdrawal rate, I could probably retire on a shoestring in about 3-5 more years (depending on investment performance), but I plan to continue on until I’m around 45 to have more financial flexibility in the event of unforeseen medical conditions, etc.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:20 am
I’m disappointed to see this blog entry make the same fear-based mistakes that so many have made regarding this recession and the drop in the stock market. It DOES NOT MATTER if the stock market “drops nearly 40 percent in the year you choose to retire.” Aren’t we all witnessing right now that such fast drops also lead to relatively fast recoveries? But the main points is that it doesn’t matter what your retirement is worth in any single year. The funds are meant to last and be withdrawn over 20, 30, 40, 50 years. So, who cares if it goes down 40% is one year?! That year a financially intelligent person would just keep drawing out the same 1/20th or 1/50th of the total (or whatever the person had budgeted) and within some number of years the stock market would return (and grow) and the person would be fine.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:22 am
We are currently saving 11% for retirement but plan to bump it up to 15% at the beginning of the year. (We have saved 15% in the past, but stopped to beef up our emergency fund.) Our employer has discontinued 401k matching for the time being, but if/when that gets reinstated, it would mean another 3% or so, for a total of 18%. We are in our late 30s.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:24 am
right now I’m maxing out my 401K at age 25. That is without my employer’s profit sharing which kicks in a couple months from now. Between my savings goals(short and long term) and retirement I probably live on 40% of my income. It seems like a lot right now, but I want to have the flexibility to either retire early or reduce my savings later when life catches up with me.
I think when you are young its important to take that longer look. Most of my friends can’t even imagine saving for retirement. There are bars to go to, women to chase, and new cars to drive.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:25 am
The best retirement advice is to take care of your health and work as long as you are healthy. Yes, your living expenses will be less then, so you can work less, too. (Pay off your house, for crying out loud - that gets rid of your biggest monthly expense.) But it doesn’t have to be an “all or nothing” decision.
Granted, I am in a field that lends itself well to temporary and/or seasonal work. And I don’t have to lift heavy stuff. But I take care of myself and see no reason why I can’t still be doing some side accounting work when I’m in my 80s. Not all year, maybe just for a few months when companies do their year-end closes. But I should make enough money doing that that I wouldn’t have to tap into my savings much, or even at all.
The worst retirement advice is to live on a fixed income. Investing in your own health and job skills is a far better place to invest than in the stock market.
Hyperinflation is almost assured in our economy’s future, not unlikely.
The whole save/invest thing seems like a giant hamster wheel to me. You scrimp, struggle, and save, but then the stock market crashes, thanks to our idiot government and its inappropriate meddling in financial markets. So you struggle even harder to make up for it. Then inflation starts to wipe out the power of your savings. So you struggle even harder.
Then, maybe, when you’re old, if you’ve withstood all this, you have enough saved up to sit around and not work? No thanks. Forget about having a 25-year retirement and enjoy life now, while it’s happening.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:26 am
I’ve only been saving about 5% of my income towards retirement for the past year or so, because I’ve been putting over 20% into paying off my car and building a down payment fund for a house. Even in the current real estate market, I’m targeting $100,000 as a goal for a 20% down payment on a relatively modest home around here. I can’t save that money in any reasonable length of time without putting a lot of money towards it, and though I *could* save more in total than the 25-30% I currently am, it seems unnecessary.
In a way, saving for a home *is* saving for retirement. I plan on getting a short 10 or 15 year mortgage when I do buy a place, and then as soon as it’s paid off, I can increase my retirement contribution by my old monthly mortgage payment. Also, as soon as it’s paid off, my monthly income during retirement falls by the amount of my mortgage payment, which makes it much more affordable.
I’m currently 28.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:28 am
This may seem a bit radical, but I’ve withdrawn nearly every dime from the stock market. I converted my traditional IRA to a Roth IRA and took all the money out.. CRAZY YOU SAY? Nay.. I’ve invested for a decade with less than zero returns. I am done passively hoping other make me rich. I have taken ALL my money and have bought a small business. I enjoy cash flow, business appreciation, AND tremendous tax benefits.
Why do we trust criminals, hedge funds, and the ponzi scheme we call a stock market with our retirement dreams? I will invest in the stock market again when I have exhausted all possibilities to invest and build equity in MYSELF and my OWN business.
Disclosure: I am a former financial advisor with one of the largest wealth management firms in the world.. Be VERY wary of what people in suits tell you.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:28 am
I am 25, saving 15% of my income, with a 5% match from my employer. Every raise I have gotten so far I have cranked up my contributions. I started of only contributing 5%, then 6 months later it was 10%, then a year later it now stands at 15%. This winter I will crank it up to 20%, or maybe even make the plunge and max out my retirement account and start seriously thinking about a Roth.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:30 am
I was extremely lucky in that my parents let me live at home for my first year and a half out of college and my “rent” was the requirement that I contribute the max amount possible to my 401K since my Dad always regretted not doing that.
When I moved out I budgeted on that amount and since I’ve never seen what my paycheck would be like with that 15% in it I don’t feel deprived. I *won’t* say I don’t miss it because there’s times I really do. At this time I’m choosing to not fund my Roth IRA in order to fund my MBA debt free while I work (well only 8500 in loans). Once school finishes next September I plan to fully contribute to my Roth IRA as well. Adding in my company’s 100% match for my first 3% and a 50% match for 4-5%, I get close to 20% gross savings while paying for an MBA at a good public school in my state all on my ~40,000 salary.
As a note, due to an article on Frugal Dad I recently did some leg work on actually figuring out what my taxes were likely to be next year and adjusted my withholding and it will stay adjusted next year so I just basically gave myself a raise that will go straight into savings :).
September 18th, 2009 at 8:31 am
1. Save the most you can AFTER you max out on the 401(k) per the allowed maximum. Some companies have 10%, 15%, 25% and all the way to 85%!
2. Invest it in a nicely asset allocated model. This will save you from the ups and downs, but stay the course. Do not be aggressive, nor passive.
3. 10% over 40years is what I have been doing, and I am in year 25 of that plan. Got a good sum collected, but 401(k) ONLY will NOT do the job for a great retirement life, considering all the challenges the $ currency is going to face over the next 10 years.
4. Put the savings BEYOND 401(k) into Retirement, College Education, Major Goals (vacation), and STOP BORROWING money beyond house and possibly a car (not two).
5. Learn to ’sacrifice’ and ‘give-up’, even though we only have one life-time to live. Doing so, will make the years from 40 to 85 really smooth.
6. Around 45 to 50 start plugging your assets and debts into a Retirement Planning tool that can be saved and updated on an on-going basis. There are some cool Excel file tools out there for FREE (search with Google or AltaVista).
7. Retirement does NOT need 70% of your final year salary, since that is TOO MUCH money, unless you have not paid off the house. If you have paid off the home the day you retire (that was the plan when you bought your 1st house), then you should need 25% to 40% of the final year salary.
8. Finally, fear not retirement, fear the Bushnomics and Obamanomics (democrats or republicans) since taxes and inflation eat away more than anything in your life, and even then they need to print more money on blank paper without putting gold as collateral!!!!!
9. Start putting more money into dividends/income as you get close to 50. Also make the banks around you a friendly place to start opening CDs. I have done this since Oct’2004 and it has made me look like to champ to myself!
10. Finally, INCOME CREATION is everything and of primary importance. Managing money is tertiary. What is in between is SAVING MONEY. If you have these three as your main objectives, then Wealth Creation and Achievement of Goals will be a piece of cake.
I am doing ALL of the above, and enjoying every minute of it. We take $10K vacations now every year, and save one whole paycheck, and live off the other. The 2nd paycheck we live off, is a paycheck that puts the max 401(k) allowed, but putting in over 20%+ of the paycheck. So, this is a small paycheck (if you reverse engineered), but we do not need more since Debt = $0.00
Kenny
September 18th, 2009 at 8:31 am
We do separate budgets. Basically we sat down and came up with a budget for all joint necessities - mortgage (before mortgage, it was rent and savings for down payment, now we include some prepayment $), food, utilities, home taxes. We added a little safety factor on top of that too. We opened a separate account, and each month deposit into that account. It works beautifully for us, we never question each others other expenses bc we know everything we need is covered.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:33 am
@KF (#50)
I’m not trying to give into fear-based arguments when citing the 40% drop. Well, maybe I am a little. I guess maybe I should have been more clear in my post.
First of all, it is essential that those who are approaching retirement age make sure their asset allocation is correct. A 25-year-old might have 75% or 80% of her retirement investments in stocks. That’s not appropriate for a 65-year-old. But too many people choose not to rebalance, and so put their savings at greater risk.
Second, if I recall correctly (and I think I do), I believe there are studies that demonstrate that a market decline as you enter retirement can be damaging to your long-term financial prospects. Because you’re drawing down the principle, you have even less money to produce the compound returns to let your stash grow.
I agree that one ought not be in a position that a 40% drop causes panic. But I also think that such a drop has some very real consequences to many folks approaching retirement. A lot of these people pull their money out of the market (afraid to lose more), thus realizing the actual decline.
Yet another reason to pay less attention to the hysterical headlines of the financial media.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:37 am
JD: You’re absolutely right. When you’re in retirement (or, more specifically, when you’re selling your investments) the order of bull and bear markets makes a huge difference.
You can try it out with simple numbers. It’s just the same “order of operations” that we all learned in grade school–where you put the parenthesis in an equation makes a difference.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:39 am
“5. Learn to ’sacrifice’ and ‘give-up’, even though we only have one life-time to live. Doing so, will make the years from 40 to 85 really smooth. …”
well, that is, until you are 40, get downsized, finally get reemployed in an underemployed type of positions, that is..
Sorry, Kenny, your rules don’t necessarily work that great..
September 18th, 2009 at 8:39 am
My husband and I are 31 and (almost) 29, respectively. My husband came into the marriage (2+ years ago) with about $15k in retirement savings, but stopped contributing after the wedding because he went back to school. I don’t remember how much I had in my 401(k) when we got married, but I was contributing about 11% at the time (we were also saving to pay for our wedding in cash, so I needed to keep contributions relatively low). However, I started increasing that over the next year and I’m now at about 20%, plus a 6% employer match. This is on top of an approximate 25% of my gross pay that goes into short-term savings. So, overall, my husband and I save about 32% of our combined gross income.
I know this isn’t the topic of your post, but I, too, am curious how the day-to-day stuff functions when couples keep their finances separate (not from a standpoint of judgement, but just because in my head it seems extremely complicated and I wonder what makes it worth it?). My husband and I have separate accounts because we liked the bank/credit union we had, and it was easier than closing accounts, etc., but we’re both named on each other’s accounts and the ING account we set up after the wedding is a joint account. His income is just enough to cover our mortgage payment and his incidental spending, so I pay all the other bills (including our joint credit card), buy groceries, clothes, etc. and make the contributions to savings. I guess the reason separate finances seems so complicated is that it seems like, in order to keep things “fair,” you’d have to be constantly tracking who paid which bills, who last paid for dinner or the sodas at the gas station, etc. Again, I’m not judging - it obviously works for a lot of people, but I’m curious about it.
Perhaps you could do an article where you interview various couples and their different money management styles? That way you don’t necessarily have to put you and Kris up for display (and public comment), but those of us (maybe it’s just me?!?) with the curiosity of how others live their lives will be sated
September 18th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Because of the risk of substantial market losses that can occur at any time, money that you will need to live on (not thrive) in retirement should not be invested in the stock market - ever. For an expert’s take on this, read the interview of Zvi Bodie in the October issue of Money Magazine.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I’m 28, and I’m saving about 4% right now because my employer has suspended matching contributions for this fiscal year. Before that, I was saving 10%!
I expect to be out of credit card debt in 12-15 months, after which I’m planning to fund a Roth IRA.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:49 am
I currently contribute 12% to a 401k and about 3% to a Roth IRA. My employer also contributes 3% to the 401k. I am 35; women in my family are generally very long-lived, and I can’t count on social security to still be around when I need it. Add in the fact that my 51-yr-old husband has no savings, and I am clearly not saving enough. I am trying to build an emergency fund, and I will need some other non-retirement savings as my husband will need the money before my retirement accounts become accessible.
I put away everything I can, and try not to worry too much.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:57 am
It’s hard to have a number, especially in early 20’s. Just the starting point and learning the basics is a curve for me so I don’t have a number.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:58 am
“I’ve withdrawn nearly every dime from the stock market. I converted my traditional IRA to a Roth IRA and took all the money out.. CRAZY YOU SAY? Nay.. I’ve invested for a decade with less than zero returns. I am done passively hoping other make me rich.”
Chris, can you share how you did this? I would like to do the same thing. How do you convert your traditional IRA to a Roth without paying a 10% penalty and taxes that sap away a huge chunk? I agree 100% with your post. Those people in suits are the same people who always said the stock market returns 10% and your house will always appreciate in value. They are trying to sell something!
Bubbles happen when people mindlessly overpay for something. It already happened in the housing market, and it’s happening with credit card debt and student loans. People overinvest in the stock market too, because everyone is always telling them they should, and they trust others to manage their money for them.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:00 am
My husband and I keep separate finances, but we do have shared financial goals, and work toward our individual and shared goals, and review our progress a couple times each year. He has his favored methods of investing/saving, and I have mine - so long as we’re both moving in the same direction, it’s simple.
We each have separate checking accounts, one joint account for mortgage, utilities and other bills, and then we have our individual savings and investment vehicles. Once a month, we each transfer our portion of the total household expenses into the joint account, and we’re done. I’m in charge of actually managing the finances because I enjoy it. It does mean sticking to a budget for the variable expenses like food. And in 14 years together, we’ve never fought about money once. I call that a success!
September 18th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Call me crazy. I am 31 and
12% Silver and Gold Coinage
10% Savings
5% 401K & IRA
Will invest more in 401K & IRA when US debt and dollar stabalize.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:07 am
I know that we’re mostly talking about retirement here, but I wonder about other savings as well. You say that Kris is saving 25% for retirement, what about regular savings on top of that? I ask because right now I’m saving 12% for retirement (I’m 40) and another 25% in regular savings - mostly for an emergency fund. I’m sure that seems backwards to most folks, but 5 years ago I was living in New Orleans when Katrina hit and basically I had to start all over (with the exception of what was in retirement at that point that I didn’t touch). If it hadn’t been for the regular savings, I’d have been in much worse shape, but literally, I started over from scratch and still struggled even with the savings. Think about everything you have in your house at the moment and imagine having to replace it all - even with insurance it’s an expensive deal. I chose not to stay in NOLA and needed to rent a place in my new city (I’d had a home in NOLA), buy furniture, clothes, basic supplies, etc., while still keeping up car payments, and other bills, and I had to find a job. I guess my point is (sorry if I’m rambling) don’t forget to save for the rainy day too. How much would it cost you to completely start over… and what is it that you really need? Once I get back to having that fully stocked emergency fund, I’ll reverse those savings numbers and hope it’s enough for retirement while still giving me peace of mind today…
September 18th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Pirate Jo: You can avoid the 10% penalty, but you cannot avoid paying regular income taxes on the conversion.
An excellent post on the topic can be found here: http://www.goodfinancialcents.com/2010-traditional-ira-to-roth-ira-conversion-tax-rules/
September 18th, 2009 at 9:21 am
my husband and I weren’t married for the first 26 years we were together (we were waiting for marriage equality — I didn’t feel right about being married when gays couldn’t), and have always (still) kept separate accounts. We didn’t worry about “fairness” at any time — he/she who had the most money paid the most bills. But, it worked because we have the same attitude about spending — we don’t take on debt (except our mortgage and we paid it off at record speed), but we buy what we need and some of what we want.
I’ve never understood why there’s that idea that you should be sure to outlive your income — why not die broke? We have been to retirement seminars (one put on by my husband’s company) and it felt like a total sales job. The benefit of most investment strategies seems to be for the agent/company, and it is to their benefit to tell you to put more and more money into managed investments (we had one fellow tell us we had “too much money in savings” — surprise, we still have every penny of those savings, even as our investments were reduced a lot, like many other peoples’ in the recent crash).
September 18th, 2009 at 9:21 am
I think everyone one should save at least 10%
There are years I save 20%, some years I save 25%. But I never go below 10%
September 18th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I guess I don’t understand how the concept of separate retirements works. I get that IRAs and 401Ks technically belong to the individual, but to us it’s one big pool of money in separate pots, and it all belongs to both of us (we have all our finances joint except a few credit cards). If one half of the couple saves $200K and the other saves $2M for retirement, does one person have to eat ramen noodles for dinner while the other is enjoying a steak, and stay home watching basic cable while the other is out on a cruise? How do you envision retirement if it turns out that you have wildly different account balances when you get there?
Also, to the question about outliving your investments versus dying broke - the problem is you don’t know when you’ll die. You can plan to die broke at 95, but what happens if you live to 98…or 100…or 104? Better to plan to outlive your investments no matter what.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:32 am
As for the retirement question, I am in the camp of hoping to continue working as long as possible. Not because I expect to *need* to do it, but b/c I’d prefer to remain involved in the world, even if it’s just a part time job.
I’m always surprised at how vehemently some people disagree with having separate financial accounts. My husband and I–married for almost 12 years with one kid–have always had separate accounts, and it works great for us. I have never seen a compelling reason for us to change a system that gives each of us clear responsibilities towards the household and yet allows us each a certain independence in handling those demands.
I will freely admit that we have made some financial mistakes, and spent recklessly and unwisely at times. But we would have made those same mistakes regardless of what system we used to pay our bills, as we made the choice to live that way as a couple. In the same way, we’ve both put a lot of energy into reforming our spending habits, and we both worked hard as a couple to make sound financial decisions for the future. Neither our mistakes nor our successes have any connection to the specific banking system we use.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:33 am
#75 read post #48
September 18th, 2009 at 9:40 am
I’m 39 and have around 12% going into a 401k with variable company matching (up to 4%). In past few years, I did the max IRS 401K amount. I buy a bit of stock each month (just $150 or so through drip direct plans), just for fun extra savings. Also I am trying to save another 10% per month in savings, and usually do a Roth IRA each year, so my total savings is likely around 20-25%. I do not feel like 10% is enough, but you start out with what you can do and move the percentage up as time goes on.
After a divorce this last year, I am regrouping financially; bought a much smaller house than we had together. That is my advice - don’t upgrade houses. I bought a very nice house more similar in size to the first house we had (as opposed to the almost double in size one that we “upgraded” to. If I had stayed in the first house originally bought 10 yrs ago, it would’ve been paid off now due to its (relatively) lower price, along with savings and pay increases since then.
I am fortunate to have a high income, but am planning on being able to live on half (expense-wise) in case I am downsized and have to find other work. You really don’t miss it if you get used to living on less (though it is definitely easier with a higher income, since I can just live like my friends who make a bit less and I don’t feel any pain). My future goal is freedom to work fewer hours or at a different type of job (which is lower paying but more satisfying).
September 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am
“How much should you save for retirement?”–A lot more than most of us think!
Given the affects of inflation over time, especially in regard to healthcare, the most a retirement plan may end up being is a nice, fat emergency fund. No joke here–include a realistic inflation adjuster into your retirement projections and the amount of money you’ll need becomes mindboggling. A $2 million retirement stash may seem like a lot now, but won’t be so impressive in 20-30 years.
Part of retirement planning needs to focus on what kind of WORK you will do that you won’t mind doing. It may take some time and training to get there, so there’s no time like the present to start working on that sideline business or 2nd career that may be needed to keep us going well into our golden years.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:47 am
24 year old here. I’m saving 35% of my salary ( 72K salary ) I don’t want to be working full time until 65. Wish rent was cheaper so I can save more. Plan to partially retire at 50… if the market allows me to.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:01 am
I contribute the maximum to my 401(k) ($16,500) and the maximum to my Roth IRA ($5,000) and I make $67,750. I currently do not get a match in my 401(k). So I contribute about 31.7%. I’m 31, have a wife and 2 kids, we are quite frugal and hope to retire comfortably and early.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Just a point of clarification - I currently save 20%. Gotta take advantage of that compound interest while I’m young! =D Since I keep my expenses low and have my fiancial picture in order I don’t find it burdensome, so why not, right? Plus it gives me breathing room later when I’ll (presumably) have other financial goals.
@ Traciatim - I’m also Canadian so hopefully I’ll get some juicy benifits when I retire as well! But…I just feel like who knows what will happen to CPP in the next 40 years. First the baby boom will ravage it, and if there’s anything left I’m sure gen X (another big generation) will do some damage too. I prefer not to depend on it, just to think of it as gravy when I (hopefully) end up getting my share. I’ll certainly have paid in plenty by then! On top of that, 40 years from now I may not even live in Canada. Who knows what life will bring (hope my RRSPs and TFSA can follow me…hmm…)
@ Alexandra - I’m too financially conservative to assume that none of my expenses will increase in retirment. Anyway, I’m WAY to far from retirement to have any idea of what my expenses will be! Who knows, maybe I’ll still be supporting deadbeat kids! =D
@ Rika - I’m jealous! I wish I that I loved my job so much that I never wanted to retire! Unfortuanately at this point that’s not the case but maybe one day.
@ Rob Bennett - that’s my point exactly! I think the 10% number gives people a false sense of security and therefore is somewhat dangerous.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Well, we’re starting over at age 45.
We sold a profitable business two years ago and both have been unemployed since that time, almost exhausting our savings.
DH just started a new, great job about two months ago and I’ll start mine in another couple of weeks.
It’s been a tough two years, I tell ya, even though we were as “prepared” as we could be. I’ve never been unemployed in my life, much less TWO YEARS!
Our plan is to pay off some debt we incurred these last two years (health bills, etc) then save 50% of our gross income (about $5000 per month) in various savings/retirement vehicles. We need to play catch up. No kids, we have a mortgage of about $600K.
We are both going to receive inheritances but I *try* not to think about that. Though in my darkest hours it was a source of comfort.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:13 am
correction: 50% of NET income
September 18th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I’m 29 years old and have been contributing to a 401K from the time I was eligable at 23-24. I started out contributeing 10% and have slowly increased so I am now contributeing 20% (plus 4% company match).
September 18th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I’m the saver; DH allows me to direct him so I’m more comfortable.
As a result, I save a lot more of my income than he does his.
I’m saving 19.5% of my gross salary in retirement investments; no matching, but I will also have a pension. I’m also putting away an additional 7% in non-retirement savings.
DH is saving 11% of his gross income in retirement investments.
Our current estimates are that our house will be paid off in 2019, when I’m 54 and he’s 56. If I retire at 60, I will have medical care from work, and he’ll be covered too.
For those wondering about separate vs. joint - we too have “separate” accounts, but we also have a joint account for bills and expenses.
We have ~ $160K in investments right now, and DH recently inherited some funds from his grandmother. I am planning that half of the inheritance will be invested for his retirement, and the other half will go into liquid savings.
For those of you who claim that you will never retire - keep in mind that you might not have a choice. All it takes is one accident or disease, and you might be unable to work when older.
That is my situation - I have a spinal disease that means it’s unlikely I’ll be wanting or able to work past 60. I had planned all my finances on working to 62-65, and now I find that even having saved since my 20’s, and currently at 20% of gross going to retirement - it still might not be enough. So don’t be so short-sighted or arrogant to think you don’t have to plan for the worst.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:35 am
As someone who is graduating college this year, with the possibility of either working or going to school another 3-4 years, this is particularly interesting to me. I personally am prepared to aggressively save for my retirement. I want to sock away as much as I possibly can. If I could go 40% I will!
My goal is to retire earlier rather than later, though. If I saved and invested enough to retire at 50 and live at my same standard of living, I would take a hard look at what I want to accomplish in life. I also know how important it is to start early. In response to Carla, if you think 10% is way too low, I challenge her to go 25%…or more! You can’t save too much!
September 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I am 26 and my husband is 28. I’m a stay-at-home mom, so we are living on one salary. Currently, out of each paycheck, 10% goes toward retirement and 10% goes toward paying down debt. All bonuses and found money are also going towards paying down debt. However, once we have paid down our debt, we do plan to contribute much more towards retirement.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:49 am
BIGMIKE #27 - I was in your circumstances. I recently retired at 57 with a pension of about 70% with a COLA in future years. The last few years I saved about 20% of salary. Over the years I saved varying % depending on circumstances…Less when I stretched to buy a new house and more when I got a raise I didn’t *need*.
In my situation 70% really = 100% because I am no longer saving for retirement or paying medicare taxes. I have more saved that I will likely ever spend. Taking yearly 4% distribution cut of savings/investments funds the fun things…big trip, new car for cash, home solar energy system.
I suggest saving 10% of your salary once any debt is paid. Not more than that if it requires too much scrimping. After all, you may not work for that employer you entire career. Also saving 10% is good discipline.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Carla - don’t worry about the CPP. It is rock solid and there is no chance of it not being there for you. If you want to worry about something then worry about OAS - I suspect it will be there but it is far more likely to be cut than CPP.
As for all the people who think Social Security won’t be there when you retire - do you really think it will be completely eliminated? Is it not more likely that the benefits will be reduced and/or retirement age moved? It’s also possible that it will be exactly the same as it is now. (I know, very hard to imagine for some people).
September 18th, 2009 at 10:55 am
#27 Mike - we are in a similar situation with my husband an Ohio teacher. I do believe he will get a pension, but just remember they can change the rules on you midstream. We just found out a month ago that my husband won’t be able to retire after 30 years of service like we thought, they are changing the rules to 35 years of service. They are raising his mandatory contribution from 10% to 12.5%, reducing cost of living adjustments and making other changes because the fund is insolvent. Don’t trust someone else to take care of your future. There are retirement calculators out there that will include pensions and tell you how much you need to save on top of that.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:00 am
I just turned 28 last month and I max out my 401(k) to the legal limit and get the employer match of 1.5% (I’m jealous of all of your companies who give 5% match!). Beyond that I usually put about 10k-15k a year into an assortment of indiv. stocks, funds, bonds, REIT. I have 2 rental properties with my brother that have slightly positive cash flow. I stopped contributing to my emergency fund after it got to 6 months worth and I have about 30k saved up for a down payment that I add $500 to every month. My income prices me out of the Roth IRA range, but a few years right out of college I was eligible and so I have a Roth that has about 11k in it, but will only grow by returns.
This may be off topic a little, but do you ever write articles for those on the higher end of the income spectrum? Obviously the point of a blog is to tailor it to the most people possible, but I thought it could be helpful if every once in a while you could weigh in on a topic for the higher earners.
Love the site!
September 18th, 2009 at 11:04 am
“Also, to the question about outliving your investments versus dying broke - the problem is you don’t know when you’ll die. You can plan to die broke at 95, but what happens if you live to 98…or 100…or 104? Better to plan to outlive your investments no matter what.”
At 98 or 100 or 104, who cares? I probably won’t even know what’s going on around me at that point, much less care. I can go ahead and die when I’m that old - so what? I’ll be someone else’s problem. My plan is absolutely to die broke.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:05 am
@Kevin (79)
Yeah, I wonder about that (inflation) too… but when I do the “how much do I need to save to get what I need” calculations, I assume no increase in salary, and no increase in IRA maximums. This way, assuming that my salary and IRA maximums increase with inflation, I’m covered.
FWIW, 15% of my salary gets saved toward retirement. At least next year when my credit card debt (from unemployment) is paid off.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:13 am
@ Four Pillars - it’s nice to have a vote of confidence for Canada Pension! As I said though, I don’t *worry* about it at all. I just choose to plan to depend on myself and will treat it like a nice bonus when that time comes.
My personal philosophy is to spend my energy on things that I can control - CPP will probably be fine, but I really have no control over whether it will be or not so why even think about it, right?
September 18th, 2009 at 11:16 am
My opinion on this is to use a good retirement calculator and make sure that you error on the side of too much money in retirement. I don’t think too many people would mind having extra money at a time when they can do whatever they want without having to worry about a job.
Here is a link to my favorite Retirement calculator at INGdirect.com:
http://retirement.ingdirect.com/Plan/Default.htm
September 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Why do some people feel the need to spell out their entire net worth when the question was % towards retirement? Who care if you make a million dollars a year and have ten rental properties or how much you have saved for a down payment. What does this have to do with the question that is the point of topic today?
September 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am
I think that when you get your first job, you sign up to put 10% into your 401k and THEN go and do the calculations, figure out your budget and how much you can afford to save etc.
The point is that 10% is better than 0%, which is what people in general will do while they dither amongst all the choices, advice and calculators out there. That’s the value of having this “rule of thumb” out there.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I’m in my 40’s. I started at 5%. Over the years I’ve used promotions and other salary increases to pump that up to 14%. When I retire I plan on eating into my principle, since I’m projecting I won’t make it past 95 and I feel my kids should be helping me if I need it at that age, not the other way around. I’m also planning on replacing 80% of my last year’s salary, but am figuring I won’t need anywhere near that and the actual replacement figure will be in the 60-65% range even with long term care and health insurance bump ups (I won’t be saving for college anymore, mortgage paid off, social security and medicare no longer being deducted from salary, won’t need life insurance, etc.). So, if things go well, I’ll have extra. If things don’t go so well, I’ll still be fine.
I think ten percent of your salary will get you there if you have 40 years to accumulate it and invest it sensibly. If you only have 30, you need at least 15% of your salary. I really feel that this is a lot like saving for your kids college, don’t destroy your present by killing yourself for your future. Ten to fifteen percent should accomplish that without paupering you now.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:50 am
As a 20-something, retirement seems a long, long way off. But I guess it’s never too early to begin planning.