Yesterday I shared a guest post from Leo of Zen Habits. His guide to minimalist money was a sort of overview of good financial skills, useful information for those in the first stage of personal finance. But some long-time GRS readers couldn’t relate to Leo’s post.
Today’s post goes in the opposite direction. It’s a meditation for those in the third stage of personal finance (or beyond), and it’s probably going to seem foreign to those who are still struggling to get debt under control.
The evolution of spending
Before I developed smart money skills, I spent without thinking. I accumulated debt because I had no self-control. I bought what I wanted, even when I couldn’t afford it.
To repay my debt and build wealth, I learned to be frugal. I was never able to completely discard my tendency to spend, but I curbed it sharply. In fact, I became so frugal that I would debate whether to use two spoonfuls of hot chocolate mix or three when making a cup of cocoa. (And this was just a year ago!)
I’m still frugal. In my day-to-day life, I make choices to save money in every way I know how. I clip coupons, buy store brands, borrow from friends, make do with what I have. I am a proponent of thrift.
At the same time, however, I’ve reached a point where it’s possible to save for some very nice things. I saved for my used Mini Cooper. Kris and I are saving for a trip to France next year. And this weekend we’ll receive a shipment of some nice furniture we’ve saved for.
Because I’ve made smart choices in other parts of my life, I’m able to spend well on the things that really matter to me.
The guilt of wealth
There’s no question that I’m happy about my current financial situation. I’m doing well, making smart choices, and enjoying a balance between tomorrow and today. But not everything is perfect. I’ve found that I feel guilty about some of the things I can now afford to purchase. And I’m not the only one.
I had lunch with a close friend yesterday. Though he was raised dirt poor (way below poverty level), he’s worked hard to obtain an education, to build a career, and he now owns a couple of businesses. It was never his aim, but now he finds he’s wealthy. He’s proud of his accomplishments — but he also feels guilty.
“I look at my extended family, and they’re still poor,” my friend told me. “They struggle. And yet I have a nice house a nice car and everything I could possibly want.” A few years ago, my friend purchased an expensive car as a reward to himself for his hard work. He could afford it, but somehow over the past few years, he hasn’t enjoyed it as much as he thought he would. He feels embarrassed to drive it. He worries that his kids will grow up to take for granted those things he views as blessings.
This morning, I walked across the street to pick ripe Concord grapes at my neighbor’s house. He came out to help. We chatted as we plucked the juicy bunches from the vine. My neighbor has been retired for fifteen years, and through patience and smart investing has built an enormous nest egg.
When my neighbor retired, one of the first things he did was buy a boat. He spends his summers cruising from Seattle, Washington to Juneau, Alaska and back. (He’s invited me to spend ten days on his boat with him next year — I can’t wait!) My neighbor told me about the first summer he had his boat. One day he anchored in a little cove. Before long, several other boats had anchored in the same spot. He was embarrassed to see that his was by far the biggest boat. “I was worried about what they thought of me,” he said.
A strange new world
Both my friend and my neighbor are generous. They contribute time and money to their friends, family, and community. They’ve built wealth through hard work, and can afford the indulgences they allow themselves. Yet they both feel some degree of guilt over the things they have.
Believe it or not, I’ve begun to experience some of the same feelings. I know I’ve worked hard to get where I am today, but I’ve also been incredibly fortunate. I have a great job. I’m doing something I love, which also happens to help other people. I work from home, so can set my own hours. (I spent all yesterday hanging out with friends, but here it is Saturday morning and I’m working.) I’ve eliminated my debt and am building wealth. As a result, I can allow myself some of the nice things I’ve always wanted.
So why do I feel guilty? I never felt guilty about the things I had when I was in debt. I felt I deserved them. I don’t feel that anymore. Now that my new furniture is on its way, I don’t feel happy to have it, or proud that Kris and found ways to save so much money on it. I feel ashamed that I’m able to afford this while my little brother and his family are struggling to stave off bankruptcy.
Yes, I know that his situation is largely a result of his choices, as mine is a result of my choices. But I know there are plenty of people in this world who have worked as hard as I have, but who haven’t had the breaks.
Does anyone else experience this? How you handle it? I’ve decided that the best thing I can do is to continue my frugal lifestyle, allowing myself occasional indulgences as I can afford them. At the same, I’ll continue to help as many people as possible improve their financial situation. Maybe if I can help others achieve wealth, I won’t feel guilty about my own.
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I am still working my way out of debt, so I have not yet reached the place of “guilt” over things I have or can afford. I have found, however, that as I save for an item instead of buying it on impulse, that when I finally get the item, and pay cash, I don’t have that same happiness over it. I think delaying that “instant gratification” is very helpful in learning to handle finances properly. I guess with the impulse purchase there’s a rush or a high that one gets. Take away the “addiction” to the feeling and you get a clearer perspective of what you need and what you don’t need to purchase.
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All good advice. But, you might add to the list “get a job with a public employer that provides one of the most generous pension benefits in the country.”
I’m guessing that your millionaire neighbor was a public school teacher in Oregon. Public employee’s in Oregon of your neighbor’s vintage were blessed with guaranteed (!) 8% returns on their retirement accounts-regardless of the performance of the market. So, your neighbor has a guaranteed pension for the rest of his life based on a retirement account that grew at no less than 8% per year-regardless of the performance of his other investments. I applaud him for his thrift, his attitudes, and the way he has constructed his life, but he is working from a foundation that most of us will never ever have-the promise of a monthly pension check from a source that will not be depleted.
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@JM[102]:
Never depleted? Just like California’s funds, right? And what’s the point of bringing down the neighbor? He still worked for what he has now. If he got a great deal like that, then that was shrewd on his part to take the opportunity.
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So can we avoid guilt in this world? We can feel guilty if we are careful and live below our means and purchase things with cash. OR we can feel guilty everytime we use a credit card while getting ourselves deeper into debt.
I know which “guilt” I would prefer to have
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I definitely don’t have any guilt whatsoever about any affluence we may have obtained, as it was through hard work. My family is pretty achievement oriented and the gifts I got were expectations, rather than hand outs. This doesn’t mean that guilt doesn’t enter into the situation. In this case, its some of my in-laws that are firmly convinced that we have no problems and all the money in the world, and they aren’t afraid to remind us of that. Through inaction and less lucrative choices (ie. not taking free college opportunities, etc), they haven’t attained a standard of living that matches ours.
The root cause of their envy is the belief that we attained our affluence through some sort of luck, which totally dismisses all the smart moves and hard work that we put into it. We are not lucky, we are fortunate. Now we just roll our eyes when their envy rears its ugly head.
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I always seem to come to comment way too late — over 100 comments in front of me, and unfortunately I don’t have time to read them all.
But fear not, JD, you are not alone. We’ve had the same feelings — and we’re just getting started on our life journey!
We aren’t “rich” by any means — we don’t have a million dollar portfolio, we don’t own a mansion… but we have a bunch of cash saved up for various goals (“new” car, emergency fund, etc.). Sometimes I sit and stare at our Excel spreadsheet and I am just baffled that we’ve been able to sock so much cash away (plus our Roth IRAs) when I know many of the people we know haven’t done the same.
At the end of the day it is 100% the choices everyone makes. Sometimes I feel guilt, sometimes I feel regret that we aren’t out there living financially irresponsible lives. (And how crazy does that sound!) One of my fears is that we live this incredibly responsible life and then I die before we get to really enjoy it. (The “live like no one else so you can live like no one else” part of the deal.)
Great post.
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There are a lot of emotions that go into feeling guilt over success. I think any/all of the following could lead someone to feel guilty about their wealth:
* You feel sympathy for others who are less fortunate.
* You react to envy from people who are jealous.
* You have modesty about your success.
* You might feel your success is undeserved because you don’t realize how hard you really work or how talented you really are.
* You feel a need or obligation to help others more than you do.
But nobody should feel guilty about their own success through their skills and work.
I do think that financial success is a mandate for philanthropy. I think the arguments against charity by some comments here are really just rationalization for peoples self interests.
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@Justin [103]
Not trying to bring the guy down-I’m fine with him having a pension. I wish more people had them.
My point is that this guy operates from a position that fewer and fewer of us will ever be in, which is to have worked under retired with a defined benefit retirement plan (and a damn generous one in his case). A person whose primary retirement income will be derived from a 401(k) doesn’t have nearly the same amount of security.
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I don’t feel guilty for being better off than some other people I know. I feel thankful.
Maybe it’s because I still have to work for a living and therefore I don’t feel rich.
More likely it’s because of my parents. They raised me with many of the good lessons on this blog, thus I haven’t had to worry too much about money. I visit here for motivation, not instruction.
Or maybe it’s because I view money as rather transitory. It’s just a tool of convenience that only appears valuable because others will accept it for real things. With the way our national debt is going, we could wake up one day like Zimbabwe with worthless currency. In the end, how you live your life among others is far more important and worthwhile than a number in the bank’s ledgers.
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Hello JD!
I’m Tiago and I’m writing from Sao Paulo, Brazil.
I totally understand what you mean because I face a similar situation in my life.
Going straight to the point, here are my thoughts: sometimes helping others to get wealth won’t make you satisfied, won’t make you happy. That’s because you know deep down that some people just didn’t had any chance to do so. They were born poor and had bad education (from family and/or school) and therefore they can’t have what you’ve got. My suggestion is go to a homeless shelter and help them out in some way. Offer your other qualities as human being, not only your knowledge on this matter. I’m sure you will feel a lot better and you will give them something they need, and I’m not talking about money or wealth.
I guess for me it’s easier to see that since I live in a poor country and the social differences here are big and everywhere.
That’s it.
Great blog, by the way!
Cheers.
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Various commenters have offered things you can do to resolve the “feelings” you have. My suggestion is a meditational/philosophical one. It comes in several questions:
What is guilt? [There may be several definitions, and choosing the correct one, may help. I suspect it is not remorse, or pity, or regret,... that way you are sure what you are feeling is guilt. Sorry, I don't mean to be patronizing.]
Who should feel guilt? [Are there conditions that objectively necessitate feelings of guilt? Does you condition qualify? Is it objective or subjective?]
Where does guilt come from? [Does it come from God? Does it come from one's upbringing or life experiences? Is it good for you?]
If you didn’t feel guilty? Would you still help people out? [I am of the view that helping out because one is feeling guilty is not "pure" or "effective".]
Are there certain things that enhance feelings of guilty than others? For example, would you be guilty of happiness? Should you feel guilty that you are laughing while other people are crying? How about being born in America and not …? How about being born white? If not, why is that different? [May be because one has control over some things and not others?
I think that once you get to the source of the guilt, you can deal with it more effectively. If your guilt is because you have more, I am not sure you can cure it by offering service. At the end of the day, the question to be answered is “Why am I feeling guilty?”
I cannot claim to have answers to all those questions. It is just a starting point of some spiritual evolution, I think.
Good luck!
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What a great post, I really enjoyed it! My husband and I are in our late 30s/early 40s and because of our modest lifestyle, aggressive savings strategy and reasonably healthy incomes, we are consumer debt free and own our house without a mortgage. Not that I would ever trade this situation for something less secure, but I do find that it’s harder (i.e. I feel guilty, as described in your post!) to say “We don’t want to spend money on that” than it is to say “We can’t afford that.” I think that once you’re financially secure, your values become more public, if that makes sense. Other people can see what you do and don’t spend money on when your spending is up to you, and that’s not always an easy thing.
Thanks for the fantastic blog, I really enjoy reading GRS and have learned so much from you and your guest bloggers!
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My husband and I have worked diligently all our lives. At 11 he had started with a paper route, at 11 I worked at my family’s tiny motel for a $1 a room. Now at 52, we’ve “arrived” by most American standards. We done it carefully, purposely paying off bills one by one, never indulging in what we could not afford. Now we anonymously pay for students Christian schooling, college educations, and support numerous groups. At this point, I must admit, with all due respect, I take serious offense at “Charles (7.)” comments above. Sir, you berate people who have EARNED what they have. No where on these sites do we see or learn from TRUST-FUND BABIES! For those rich folks, look to the cretins in your own government. Your comment “This is just another reason to restructure the economy to redistribute the wealth more equitably,” shows only contempt and envy that nets you nothing. If you can’t make your own way, then you want to steal from me what I have earned through sweat, blood and tears! So come take it from me yourself – don’t hire government thugs and immoral laws to do what you are too cowardly to do. SHAME on you. You have the same opportunities I do and anyone else does. Do you pay a price? Hec yeah! Is it worth it? Almost always! Did I deprive YOU by earning MY way? NOT POSSIBLE.
So, do I have guilt for working myself to death? No. Do I have resentment to folks like Charles who don’t go out and earn their OWN, but want to take mine? YES.
If you don’t like or take advantage of the awesome equal opportunities we have here, LEAVE. Don’t expect everyone else to pay your way. We have our own families, friends, and relatives we take care of. Why must I take care of yours, too? Wake Up!
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How funny but true. We work so hard for many years to get what we want and then when we get it we feel bad about it. I think we get this feeling due to years of accepting we cannot have it, or we have accepted we are from a social level that having a BMW is not normal. Then when we get it – it is a shock to the system and we feel that we don’t deserve it due to the strong hardwired feelings and thoughts we have carried for many years.
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All of you who amassed savings on this thread should really feel no guilt. You were working for this money and if you worked for a for-profit business then most likely you were generating value for your company and deserve the money you made.
I’m the CEO of a small company, about $40 million per year in revenue. When I took over last year the company was losing $300K per month, after a ton of work now the company is making $700K per month on the same level of revenue. Unfortunately I have no long term incentive in the company and the private banker owners keep all the profit. However they pay me $250k a year for running the business. I employ 550 people and am responsible to some extent, for their well being in so much as keeping the company making good decisions and not failing.
It takes significant effort to manage the company day by day to maintain results. So I feel no guilt about the money I earn. I follow my heart and give to people who may need it when the feeling is right, but the amounts are usually quite nominal.
My wife & I live quite frugally so we basically save the majority of our after tax salary. I do get frustrated in having to pay a significant amount of taxes especially when I see the gov’t going into more debt and bailing out their political cronies. Having never received a bailout and only turned around a bad situation with sweat and hard work, I don’t subscribe to the bailout culture.
I’ve stopped feeling guilty about money a long time ago, once I actually earned the money I make.
Now I don’t look down at anybody and believe that everybody has their crosses to bear and need to face challenges in their life. This is true in my life and appears to be true in every person I’ve observed. Having money doesn’t make you any better than anybody else and there is absolutely no need to feel guilty about this.
If you follow your heart and do your best you simply can’t go wrong.
-Mike H.
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“The worst guilt is to accept an unearned guilt.” – Ayn Rand
This is the first time you’ve written a post that has annoyed me
I am a middle class urban frugal mom who thinks of money similarly to you. But I think this guilt thing reeks of confused socio-political morality. Modern liberalism teaches us that money is an evil tool of the conservatives so even when we work hard, live in moderation, behave frugally and responsibly, and even give away money to charitable causes, we STILL feel guilty because we associate money itself with something filthy. This is obviously absurd unless you’re living some grotesque bling-bling Dynasty ‘lifestyles of the rich and famous’ kind of life.
I say dump the guilt. It is a hugely inefficient use of time. If you can help others than great, but you can’t do *everything* for them – they have to meet you halfway or it won’t work.
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@Jim[107]:
You are right that my stance on charity is based on self-interest. But it is not a rationalization of my self-interest, but rather a rational deduction, based upon my value of self-interest. I look out for my own interest and those who I care for, and I expect no one else to do so. That is how I live, and I refuse to be guilt-tripped into believing that that is wrong.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/self-interest.html
@Tiago Garcia[110]:
There’s plenty of anecdotes about people with bad starts doing extremely well and people with good starts doing extremely badly. It truly is much more a matter of effort and willingness to learn an applicable skill. Do you really need a college degree to become a successful carpenter or plumber (who actually make quite a lot)? NO! You just need a good eye, a good pair of hands, and some basic math and reasoning skills.
Blacks and Hispanics start out roughly at the same level below Whites on test scores. By the end of high school, Hispanics have caught up, while Blacks have not, despite other factors being accounted for.
Roland G. Fryer, Jr. has been expanding on this story ever since he himself started with an abusive, rapist father and his mother left. He was tenured in Harvard at age 30, and his primary focus of work is the economics of early inequalities in education. I would suggest you read some of his work; very enlightening.
@JoB[113]:
Preach on! I like what I’m hearing
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@Pistolette[115]:
This! Way to hit it right on the head again. I find Ayn Rand’s philosophies becoming more evident every day, on both sides of the fence. I see more and more people falling into the traps of the “liberal” thinking you defined above, due to the polarization of the issues based on the current domestic political landscape and actions. And I am realizing that there are more people than I expected that are ready to reject such thinking, and move on to a personal value-set closer to rational self-interest.
Here’s the one question I always like to throw out to people, because one of two things will happen: They will either answer quickly and honestly, or you can practically see their twisted rationalities implode on themselves.
The scenario: Your significant other is sick, but luckily there is a cure! But you can barely afford it, and will likely be in debt for the rest of your natural lives. There are also 5 other people in the hospital, and you have been talking to their families while in the waiting room. You find out that all of them have the same sickness, and the total cost of their cures is the same as that for your wife/husband. Would you honestly let your wife/husband die, in order to save these other five strangers?
I don’t think I’ve met anyone who could honestly answer that they would save the five strangers. But that is exactly what their philosophies of self-sacrifice and the “greater good” call for! This is the key to exposing their true motive: They never want to sacrifice themselves for others, but rather, want others to sacrifice themselves for them. Once you see through this, your guilt and pity for them suddenly melts away.
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JoB @113 – Rock on Sister!! You said it so well while so many are trying to take it away. If anyone shows up at your door let us know, we’ll join you in the fight to protect what is rightly yours! In the meantime, let’s take our country back and vote these redistributing morons out of office!!
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J.D. – Have you considered how starting a business could provide jobs for the less priveleged? Although I don’t know the specifics, Dave Ramsey counsels people how to get out of debt. Could you start a “Get Rich Slowly” phone-counseling business? Perhaps pulling counselors from your huge and intelligent commentor pool?
Avoiding guilt is why I am thankful to have the Church teach me about charity. Since I incorporated charitable giving (money and time) into every step of my financial growth, I know that I was able to help people all along the way. And since my charitable giving is a percentage of my income, growing my income also helps others.
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JD – Money didn’t buy you happiness when you were in debt; what makes you think money will buy you happiness now?
The way I see it, you now have more resources (money, time) at your disposal than ever before. Throwing them at “acquiring stuff” still won’t fill the gaps. So figure out what’s meaningful to you (Crush It?) and use those resources to make the world a better place in a way that makes you happy, too. If the new furniture isn’t doing it, do something else. What about micro-loans to help other people bootstrap themselves out of poverty?
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It sounds like you are on track to be living the exact same way you were before with the one difference of not being in debt. It is still the same lifestyle, and the same assumptions: that purchases lead to happiness.
What you have at your disposal are time and money. Perhaps it would be worth considering skyrocketing your spiritual development rather than merely skyrocketing your savings. Meditate daily. Donate (time and money) to charity. Offer free personal finance consulting to people who struggle. Open a non-profit aimed at aiding those in debt to overcome the hurdles needed to make that transformation in their life.
Looking for happiness in the material world is fleeting. You can have anything you want materially. That is easy. Happiness is not material.
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Excellent post. This is something my household struggles with regularly.
My husband and I have different philosophies on giving. What ultimately works for us is to each have a budget…I donate mine to several wonderful charities. He puts his in a savings account so he can help out his family when they need it. (I am fortunate that my siblings are on sound financial footing.)
I am currently struggling with guilt over spending. I can afford to *not* be frugal all the time. I’m currently attempting to balance the time/money equation by doing things like going out to eat 2-3x a week (usually once to a nicer restaurant, and the other times to someplace cheap), but it is hard to let the frugal habits die! I console myself by remembering that I have this time with my kids only once so I’d better enjoy it.
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I don’t think having a goal and a plan for your future, financial or no, should make you feel guilty. You mention “getting breaks”, but I think opportunity will knock at many doors, and the person has to have the willpower to open those doors.
Sure, if you robbed someone to get your money you should feel guilty. Getting rewarded for hard work should not make you feel guilty!
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@ 118
“I don’t think I’ve met anyone who could honestly answer that they would save the five strangers.”
And yet it has happened. At great personal risk to themselves people conducted the underground railroad, hid Jews from the Nazis, etc. Throughout history there have been individuals willing to risk everything for people they didn’t know.
So go ahead and ridicule the “greater good.”
But here’s the way scenario I’d like to see your scenario play out. Not all of us can be millionaires, but all of us together can work together to take care of those who need help so that no one individual has to “end up in debt for the rest [their] natural lives.”
In my option, everyone in the community helps a little and ALL six of the people in the scenario receive the care they need without you or anyone else going into crushing debt. Your wife and the five others all return to productive lives. You are relieved for your wife and the loved ones of the other five are all relieved as well.
It hurts to see others suffering. We all have different ways of coping with our own psychological pain produced by the empathy we feel. Sometimes if we blame the one who suffers (they’re lazy, it was their choice) then we feel our own consciences are relieved. Or we can just say, like the five, they’re someone else’s problem. If they don’t have someone willing to sacrifice everything for them like you would for your wife then maybe that’s their fault too. Maybe they were pricks no one loved so they deserved to die?
I can’t give JD any advice on how to deal with his guilt. I appreciate what I have and feel gratitude for those who helped me along the way. I have compassion for those who started out with less opportunity in life than me, will help out in my own private finances, and will support government programs (unemployment, medicaid, Pell Grants, health care reform, etc) that do the same for the same reasoning as under-lined in my scenario response: through economies of scale and risk spreading we can accomplish more working together.
I’ve read some of Ayn Rand’s work and I know its not for me. Not in its entirety. Its simplifies too much. I feel Nathaniel Branden improved some things with his superior understanding of human psychology. But even then it still doesn’t fully capture the richness of human interactions. The world is pretty complex and its unlikely any human will ever completely understand things, but I think I’ll get close by through constant searching and re-evaluation.
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I was a huge Ayn Rand fan when I was younger. Fifteen years ago, I thought she was brilliant. I’m older now, and I’ve seen more of the world. I realize things aren’t as simple as she would have us believe. I also think she does a poor job handling grey areas. Things are not as black and white as in The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. Yes, there are absolutes, but not as many as she thinks there are.
Plus, I’ve never been satisfied with what I call the “Eddie Willers problem”. Willers is Dagny Taggart’s loyal assistant and long-time best friend. He’s not a genius, though, and he’s not an industrialist. He’s merely a hard-working guy who wants to lead a happy, moral life. And when the Great Men stop the world, they screw him over — and the people like him.
Also, I find it hilariously ironic that Rand’s ideology has been co-opted by the neo-cons. For decades, she was shunned by liberal and conservative alike. But while the liberals dismissed her as a minor annoyance, the conservatives were especially vitriolic toward her and her ideas. Now they think she’s keen? Boggles my mind. And since so much of the conservative movement in the United States is based on a fundamentalist Christian mindset, how do they reconcile their love of the ultra-atheist Rand?
Anyhow, I still like many of Rand’s ideas, and on a personal level, I subscribe to her philosophy. I just don’t think it’s appropriate for national policy making. It’s too black-and-white and ignores the very real concept of social capital (in a Randian universe, there is no social capital).
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When I reach this point, as I’m sure I will, I am hoping that a simple review of my online blog will remind me of just how painful my struggle has been. And then maybe I won’t feel so guilty.
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JD – I think you nailed the Ayn Rand discussion perfectly. Your wisdom about how the world works contributes to your blog’s success.
I too was an Ayn Rand fan in my earlier years. I considered myself a “social Darwinist”. But, as you point out, Rand misses the key element of civil society – the glue that holds it together – social capital. Humans are wired to maximize social capital. Societies lacking in it fail. Unfortunately, we are on that course. Read Putnam’s Bowling Alone, and it will scare the heck out of you.
Anyway, I think the guilt you describe is fully related to social capital. If your efforts in life are not dedicated to developing and maintaining social capital, then your actions are inconsistent with the basic function of the human being. A society that emphasizes and supports selfishness is destined to fall apart. Listen to your guilt – it is telling you something. Use it as a guide to do the right thing. You usually do.
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@Barnetto[125]:
That would be my qualification that I have never met one. Do I doubt they exist? No. Do I doubt that they are much fewer and far between than those who create such forms of guilt would have you believe? Yes.
There have been great efforts of people working to help others. The scenarios you present are different from mine, in that they are of people fighting against the removal of the right of free life, via slavery and/or extermination. My scenario has no such entanglement. It is a pure and direct placement of you in control of two disjoint sets of life, with the ability to help a single one. There are only two answers, one which is selfish and one which is selfless.
I agree that in a real community, everyone would likely help out a little. I don’t agree that one should help out by just giving away money and time willy-nilly to assuage some misplaces sense of guilt for having worked to earn the money in the first place. I also don’t agree that people should be forcibly separated from their earned money or time, for what has been deemed the “greater good”, because that is in the simplest terms denying their right of free life. Which is what the very people in your presented scenarios were fighting against.
Do I feel empathy when I see someone else suffering? Yes, of course; I’m not sociopathic. The difference is, do I feel that I am somehow personally responsible for helping them, simply because they are suffering? No, I do not.
Let me ask you this: What is the difference between enslaving a group of peoples, and charging them 90% tax on their earnings? I believe the difference is 10%. What do you believe the difference is?
@JD[126] and DC[128]:
I agree with both of you that a purely Randian universe disavows social capital, in the sense of expecting someone to do something for you for no other reason than your previous interactions with them. While social capital can be used for good purposes, it can also be used for bad ones. Specifically, nepotism and cronyism are both negative uses of social capital. A company leveraging its contributions to political office holders to deny things to competitors. A dictator ousting a representative government, by mobilizing to the largest social groups under their cause. The extermination of a group of people, because they have been broken and stigmatized from the rest of society (lack of enough social capital to sway the opinions of groups that they should not be exterminated).
Basically, it is far from the cure-all that you two seem to ascribe it to be, and may in fact have been leveraged in many of the largest negative events in human history. In other words, it is like any other form of capital, and having it only increases your ability to act in whatever way your value set prescribes.
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@Justin (#129)
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Social capital is not a “cure-all”. It is, however, a very real component of society, and one that Rand ignores. She is so anti-altruism that she disregards the possibility of doing something good now for my neighbor (or for my community) with no immediate perceived benefit. From my experience, giving without the expectation of return often produces unexpected and unintended benefits, both for myself and for others. Rand isn’t fond of “giving” if there’s no immediate benefit to the self.
My point is that social capital is largely ignored — not just by Rand, but by most economists — and that’s too bad. It’s a very real and very important thing.
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J.D. – Here is an excellent analysis of both the upsides and the downsides of Ayn Rand’s philosophies by Nathaniel Branden: http://www.nathanielbranden.com/catalog/articles_essays/benefits_and_hazards.html
If you haven’t yet read it, definitely do. It should be required reading for anyone who currently likes or has previously liked and rejected her philosophy.
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Thank you, Amy. I’ve been looking for something like that for years. I actually have Branden’s The Art of Living Consciously here on my desktop (I used it as reference for the first two chapters of my book). I’m familiar with the broad outlines of his story, but I’ve never read anything like this from him.
I particularly like the bit where he talks about the difference between sacrifice and benevolence. I think this gets to the heart of one of the problems of Rand’s philosophy:
Great stuff. Thank you.
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Ha, I had pasted and copied the exact passage you quoted above
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INTERESTING this post arrived today, simultaneously with my weekly Philosopher’s Notes – on who else – but Ayn Rand – and this week’s booknotes – drumrollllll – THE FOUNTAINHEAD! Check it out here – free clip to listen to and summary if you are NOT familiar with Rand.
http://philosophersnotes.com/titles/the-fountainhead
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@ Justin
Those real-life events I presented, the underground railroad and people who helped the Jews during WWII, align perfectly with the stated aim of the contrived scenario you presented. People had options, “one which is selfish and one which is selfless”, and they chose the selfless one. If they don’t help others then they can go on building their own prosperity and caring for their own families. If they do help others then their own freedom and lives are risked.
I grant that most people tend not to risk such sacrifice. But when they do I think they are to be lauded rather than derided. Saving your wife is merely the default, common position. Saving no one is somewhat shocking. Saving all inspires a feeling of great respect in me even if I’m not sure that I’d be willing to go into a debt that would take me 6 lifetimes to pay off. Although given both sets of debt are equally impossible to pay off, logically one might as well go all in and save all six people. Its not like they can continue collecting on that debt after you’re dead.
Now, given that I (and others) have mentioned that Rand oversimplifies things, it seems almost comical that you’ve turned around and asked this question:
“What is the difference between enslaving a group of peoples, and charging them 90% tax on their earnings? I believe the difference is 10%. What do you believe the difference is?”
I could make a list. But you seem to only think there is one (important) difference: 10%. I think you’re not being entirely serious. Ending slavery in the US was just, but if anyone asked me to fight in a civil war against a 35% *marginal* tax rate I’d find them ridiculous.
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Rand was a kook and idiot. Perhaps she was a compelling kook, but one shouldn’t take her writing seriously. It’s ridiculous psuedo-capitalist mumbo-jumbo.
Anyone who quotes her is a fool.
There’s a reason she’s not studied in important political science or philosphy programs. (Or at least not any ones I’ve ever seen.) I never encountered her once on a reading list and neither has anyone I’ve ever met.
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Maybe she’s not read because so many teachers are anti-capitalist. I made it through school without reading any Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, or Jane Austin. I don’t know anyone of my generation who has read them (not that I’ve taken a poll nor do I want to). But would you describe any of them as ‘a kook and an idiot’? I think Ayn Rand is a useful person to read not because I subscribe to her philosophy 100% but because I think the extreme nature of her philosophy is thought provoking.
What I find curious is there is ‘should’ and ‘will’. I think most of us agree that we ‘should’ give something back to our communities, but there is a very thick line in the sand between that and being compelled to via an increasing tax rate. There are many things I think ‘should’ be, but I shudder to think at them being compelled by order of law.
There is also the argument of unintended consequences. When gov’t seeks to be benevolent with our money it’s amazing how many fewer dollars are created to be taxed. I read a story today about a woman who is looking for a $60k/year job instead of replacing the $120k/yr job she lost because that additional $60k is taxed at an effective rate of 79% because of her higher marginal rate and earning her way out of tax rebates and other benefits that drop off (i.e. need based scholarships/grants, etc). Why would she work that much harder to take home 21c on the dollar? I also find it interesting that in societies with increasing tax rates charitable giving decreases.
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Please understand that there is only one point I’m attempting to get across here. And that is that no one is owed any part of your personal success, beyond fair payment for goods and services rendered to you. Whether it be through guilt-induced charity (subtle) or taxation for welfare programs (openly coercive). While I accept the Randian principle of rational self-interest, I accept that not everyone derives value from the same things, and that different values will produce different results. I believe this is what Nathaniel Branden calls “Confusing reason with ‘the reasonable’”. I simply call it, “there is no accounting for taste”. Hopefully that clarifies my position, and I really do believe we are basically all in agreement.
@JD[132]:
I see no disagreement here. They seem to be advocating the same thing: That if you personally find value in charity, then there is no reason why you should not partake. But the idea of it being a moral duty, a moral lien against your successes because others aren’t as successful, I reject. And that kind of lien is exactly what you described in your post JD.
@barnetto[135]:
Their actions could also be seen as selfish, in that they are working to prevent destruction something they value, which is the basic human right of free life. The progression of the Holocaust is a good example as to why this is important for everyone. It started with just the Jews; it later generalized to everyone who is not an able-bodied Aryan. That is why this is an entangling factor, and why it is removed in my scenario.
The loss of free life does mean so much more than that extra 10% of your earnings. I agree completely with you, and I was mistaken in what I said before. The basic point I was badly trying to present is that I see little difference in these two options:
* Forcibly submitting the results of my work to a government, in order for it to “justly” redistribute it, presumably giving me some share of it back to me so that I may obtain the necessities of life.
* Involuntary servitude, where I am forced to work for someone else’s profit, and that person provides the basic necessities of life to me.
The difference between 35% taxation and 100% taxation is just a number in a formula. But the difference to those who must endure it… It is so much more than that. That is what I meant by the difference being 10%.
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Aha! Got it, Justin. Thanks.
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@137
Would you mind posting a link to the story you mentioned? I don’t take her for the norm and I’d like to see more specifics on her circumstances.
As far as the charities go, you’re not comparing apples to apples. The difference between us and other countries is probably due to culture and/or the fact that there is no need for many charities when government programs fill their role.
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@barnetto[140]:
Exactly. I think it’s a version of Diffusion of Responsibility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility
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The book “Limbo” helped me shed some light on some of these ideas; I recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-Dreams/dp/0471714399
Oftentimes people who have not earned success find it difficult to understand the mixed emotions felt by the newly (1st generation) successful. In this case, I mean both the poor and those for whom success was heavily subsidized by family. I have yet to meet anyone who truly pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps who did not have these feelings.
Intellectually, I’m quite proud of my modest achievements, but it feels wrong for my life to be so easy when it is so hard for so many.
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Oh, and on the topic of Rand, the key take-away I like to remind people of, is this:
Above all else, Rand admires competence and creation. Many latch on to the concept of looters while not holding themselves up to the measuring sticks of competence and creation. Both have to be understood to have a more cohesive view of her books.
In this context, it is legitimate to criticize those who would take my property and give it to someone else. Alternatively, it is mine to do with as I please; if some portion of that includes giving, it would be inappropriate for others to prohibit me from doing so.
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@JD: My point in bringing up Rand is that her philosophies regarding GUILT, the topic of this post, are very appropriate. I agree with you that she tends to oversimplify, but it doesn’t mean all her ideas are invalid. As an independent thinker I do not disregard wise words simply because my political opponents use them to their advantage. If the neo-cons want to contort Rand for their own benefit they are free to do so. I’m secure enough in my ideas that I don’t feel I have to say the political opposite for fear I may be associated with the wrong party. Btw, I love this blog (esp your garden stuff because I do urban gardening. Keep up the good work!).
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Thanks for clarifying, Pistolette. I agree: It’s a valuable skill to be able to take what you want from an author and leave the rest behind.
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Extreme thoughts are only worth reading if they are combined with rigor and skill. Nietzsche is a good example of an extreme, but rigorous thinker. Rand may have a compelling style, but she’s neither rigorous nor skilled as a philosopher. Anyone with a charming prose style can sway their reader with bold statements and unsubstantiated claims. She just doesn’t hold up when you really think about what she says.
Many philosophers have charming styles, but they are read because they also have the rigor.
And I didn’t mean my peers directly. As far as I know Twain, Dickens and Austen have not been dropped from reputable English Lit department syllabi. And as far as I know, Rand has not been adopted by reputable philosophy or political science departments.
It’s possible that Rand’s fiction is worth reading. However, the philosophy that underpins it is nuts.
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Gee @146: Plato’s philosophic works had many flaws, but we still study them and him to this day in philosophy. Whether or not we study a school of philosophy in a class has nothing to do with its flaws or lack thereof. In fact, if we based our study in philosophy on perfection alone, we would have very little material to study. We should discuss philosophies in terms of their strengths AND their flaws. It’s more likely that the adaptation of new material in a philosophy class is a very slow process, particularly when that brand spankin’ new philosophy (at least in terms of the whole of human history) is very controversial.
Rand was, in fact, very rigorous. Human, yes, very much flawed, yes, but certainly rigorous. And as mentioned above, just because you can point out certain flaws in her philosophy does not necessitate the need to throw the entire thing out and call it ‘nuts’. From Branden’s article, Objectivism states: “That reality is what it is, that things are what they are, independent of anyone’s beliefs, feelings, judgments or opinions—that existence exists, that A is A… That a human being is an end in him- or herself, that each one of us has the right to exist for our own sake, neither sacrificing others to self nor self to others… That no individual—and no group—has the moral right to initiate the use of force against others… That force is permissible only in retaliation and only against those who have initiated its use”. These are all very useful principles, and not nuts at all.
Finally, I’d like to mention that Rand absolutely was discussed (albeit briefly) in one of my philosophy classes when I was in school.
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A number of commenters have danced around it, but this guilt that one may feel about one’s material wealth is why many people do change their social circles when their financial circumstances change.
While we are prepared to have varying circumstances, we often dislike being far from the median, and we often dislike having our acquaintances being an outlier as well. Social pressure acts on us regarding finances, political views, clothing, and a whole host of points.
If you have grown up in a circle where substantial debt is common, it feels odd to have no debt and odder still to maintain the no debt. If you grew up in a circle that did not feel advanced education was worthwhile, it feels odd to be studying hard.
It’s not to say it is destiny, but social/family pressure is very, very succesful unless we are aware of the pressure others place on us and the pressure we place on others (It’s a two-way street for sure). Social pressure is almost always disguised, and often has a beneficial effect, so it can’t be discarded wholesale.
When I visit some of my family, I’m the not quite poor relation, and in others I’m the successful one, so I fancy that I can adapt to changes in circumstances quite well, but perhaps I’m just the median.
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JD,
Not to be an armchair shrink, but are you sure that you’re separating the feeling of ‘money isn’t buying happiness’ from the feeling of ‘guilt’? I mean… you made the point that the furniture isn’t making you happy. Nice things don’t (and won’t) make you happy. Financial security… now that can make one happy, or at least not stressed and depressed. You’re a lucky man to be able to run a blog, have a good income, work from home, and not have to report to ‘the man’ anymore. Those things are priceless. The ‘stuff’, not so much – that will only bring disappointment if you continue to view it as something that should be making you happier (instead you feel guilt).
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Isn’t is more a matter of:
- years of keeping up with the Jones’s and going into debt
- years of avoiding keeping up with the Jones’s and paying off your debt
- suddenly finding that your last name now is ‘Jones’ and getting used to the new role?
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