This is a guest post from Andy Jolls, founder of VideoCreditScore.com. Andy ran the myFICO.com business for a number of years and now educates consumers with free credit videos. You can follow him on Twitter at @vidcredit.
My wife and I were married a few years ago. I was working at myFICO at the time we got engaged, so I was already swimming in the world of credit, debt, and personal finance.
In fact, Suze Orman was a partner of myFICO, so I was exposed to a lot of her principles. For example, she believes that all couples should go through the prenuptial agreement process, which seems like heresy to most of her viewers. The “pre-nup” has negative connotations for most people, but Orman has a different spin on it — which I adopted.
Her concept is that a pre-nup doesn’t need to be focused on a negative outcome of divorce. Instead, it can be used as an exercise to really talk about money, and especially values around money. Her thinking is that if a couple can get through a pre-nup, they’ll be better equipped to handle financial issues down the road. Orman believes that every couple should have a pre-nup, and that it isn’t a tool just for wealthy people.
So, Molly and I decided to do a pre-nup. We told friends that we intended to do a pre-nup and the reactions were, perhaps, unsurprising. Most looked at me with disdain, as if it were something I was forcing her to do. But we held firm because we knew the data: 80% of all divorces are related to money issues. Over half of credit distress issues come from an estranged spouse.
Honestly, the process was awkward at times. But mostly, it was a healthy discussion about goals, fairness, and respect. It was a chance for each of us to show each our true character. I learned what was important to Molly, and she learned what was important to me.
To be frugal, we had a lawyer friend draft up the standard documents, and then we each hired an attorney to make sure we were covering all the bases.
To those of you who say, “I don’t need a pre-nup to have great communication with my spouse!”, I say this: There’s a value you can’t see until you go through it. You are forced to show more of who you really are, and it’s hard to force that in the courting stage.
In the end, the process was cathartic. Now our money discussions don’t involve communication issues. Don’t get me wrong: Like most couples, we have disagreements about how to spend money! But we feel great about the transparency the pre-nup provided, and the fact that it’s made us better communicators.
Do you have experience with a pre-nuptial agreement? How do you feel about the process? Would you recommend it to others?
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We didn’t really know or think about pre-nups when we got married. I did think through the possibility of what would happen in case of a divorce though.
I decided back then that I being the main bread winner, and having a more solid work history, but mainly loving her how much I do; I would be willing to walk away from all the assets and just let her have them in the case of divorce.
We have only been married 6 years, but even the few times we’ve fought I’ve still loved her enough that I would just let her have everything.
“but a divorce happens when that love dies” — well, that’s the commitment we made to each other, for this life and forever.
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Aaron, thanks for the “shout-out”. I didn’t say anyone else was wrong, just that I would do differently, and many of my more aged (40+) friends agree with me. So I’m surprised.
I think the issues described in a pre-nup should be discussed, whatever you call it. Whether or not to do the formal paperwork is up to you.
“What additional emotional security does that piece of paper provide beyond the marriage vows?” — I think it provides financial security in case the person I love and trust turns out to be someone I should not have. It happens, and I have children as well as myself to protect financially. I don’t think the pre-nup would provide me any additional emotional security — it’s a contract, after all.
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I’ve had this discussion several times with my best friend, who maintains that having a pre-nup means you aren’t 100% into the relationship. I concur with Andy that the pre-nup can be a great tool to discuss money sooner rather than later.
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I’m surprised to see all the anger here, just like tosajen. I don’t have many assets, at the moment, but I am in graduate school and would want a prenup to account for:
1) my spouse is not responsible for my current or any future student loan debt, and I am not for his. (I’m considering a PhD at some point).
2) Language stating that whichever spouse is the primary caregiver for any future children will be supported for a similar amount of time in the event of dissolution of the union, provided they are obtaining education/etc to be self-sufficient.
3) Specifically if I were to marry my current boyfriend, language stating that I will not support in any way his father, and that (the man) is acknowledging our family as being the primary responsibility, not helping out Dear Ol’ Completely Irresponsible But Guilt-Tripping Dad. Call me heartless, but anyone who chooses to liquidate their retirement accounts to buy useless junk because “the market took such a hit anyway” has made their own bed and deserves to lie in it.
I don’t consider any of that as a lack of trust. From the divorces I have observed, it seems that #2 gets little to no thought up until the marriage is dissolving and suddenly the breadwinner is angry that they’re paying for a house they don’t live in, or that their soon-to-be-former spouse can’t go out and get an equally high paying job immediately and gets awarded alimony.
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Tosajen…
Didn’t mean to single you out in any direct or negative sense but you’re welcome for the “shout-out”
Just to be transparent, I agree very strongly that many, many, many issues should be discussed prior to marriage. I don’t think anyone here is arguing against pre-marriage discussions (counseling). My question is, concerning “I think it provides financial security in case the person I love and trust turns out to be someone I should not have”.
What I can’t understand is how anyone could say that they honestly trust someone enough to share their bed and most intimate dreams with them, let them pickup your daughter or son from soccer practice, teach the children about life and responsibility but, simultaneously, not trust them enough to live up to their wedding vows or handle money responsibility… Which of these things is honestly more important?
You keep separate accounts because you don’t trust them to handle money wisely but it’s no problem for them to teach and protect your children? Just doesn’t make any logical sense to me…
K brought up the issue of addictions earlier (Hi K!!
). In the spirit of asking better questions, what does a pre-nup really protect against when dealing with an addict? Would this be the best scenario or would another option protect and limit the emotional and financial damage in a much more proactive way?
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It’s a tough tough one to suggest a pre-nup right after the guy proposes.
What people don’t realize, and what I didn’t realize is that there is an AUTOMATIC pre-nup already built in before marriage.
To put it simply, say I made $1 billion before I knew my wife and we got married. That $1 billion I made before marriage will always be mine even if we divorce.
I absolutely believe that what is made TOGETHER during our marriage should be split evenly if we get divorced.
Financial Samurai
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Aaron, how old are you? Are you married?
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People need to learn to separate the religious/romantic aspects of marriage from the legal stuff. The minute you talk legal marriage, you’re talking about a legal contract that you probably don’t know the ins and outs of and that CHANGES if you move to a different state. If you’re not willing to think about the legal and financial implications, just get religiously married, skip the legal part.
My mom & her husband made a prenuptial agreement before they were married, and made wills just after – and they listed ALL of their assets, including furniture and family pictures, everything, and detailed whose it was and where it went if one or both of them died.
It was partly a protection against each of their first spouses, and any old financial obligations that might still pop up. And it was partly to work everything out before hand so we new stepsiblings wouldn’t fight if one of them died. They’re blissfully happy – 10 years now, retired – and I think they’d be really offended by the idea that the prenup meant they were “planning for divorce”
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You only know a person as well as a person will let you. You can never be absolutely sure a person doesn’t have ulterior motives.
Most prenups are there to divide pre-existing assets in a pre-defined way. Usually, this is to prevent gold diggers from coming in and stealing half your assets.
If you really have nothing to hide, what’s there to be afraid of? If anything, you and your partner connect at a deeper level than before, or realize you aren’t right for each other in some cases.
Also, if you don’t think it’s worth it to hire a lawyer, then do you think your assets are worth less than the cost of the lawyer?
It’s been said before on GRS not to make decisions based on emotion, but on facts and numbers.
In this day and age where college is pretty much a requirement and careers are being started, marriage is being pushed off until the later years. Both men and especially women are coming in to marriage with more assets due to the increased age and time working.
“In the old days”, men were married much younger and so were women. I’ve got friends from Latin American countries where their mothers were 15-17 when they had them. At that young of an age, you ain’t got much to protect.
In the US (wikipedia source, not the best, but quick and easy to read, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage), the first marriage for men is 27.7 and 25.6 for women. That’s plenty of time to have a career and accumulate a good amount of assets.
I’m currently 23 and I’m sitting on a pretty penny because I’m frugal. I get paid on an engineering salary, but I’m still spending like I was a poor college student.
I don’t care if I make/have more or she makes/have more. I’m not going to toss out the idea of a prenup if she makes more because that makes me a hypocrite and untrustworthy.
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No pre-nup for us.
I have old fashioned values – you know the one that says something like “what’s his is mine and what’s mine is mine”
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My husband and I have only been married three weeks. I was well aware of pre-nups, but it never even crossed my mind to consider one. We’ve lived together for over three years and bought a house together last year. We’ve lived together, shared finanical responsibilites, and have discussed all important money topics. We see eye to eye on everything, including finances. If I thought he wasn’t compatable with me, I wouldn’t have married him. What’s the point of getting married if there’s any doubt in your head that this person isn’t the one you want to spend the rest of your life with? We made sure we were compatable *BEFORE* we got married.
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I’m with you JD.
I don’t understand the strong anti-pre nup sentiments here. Becky’s comment (that you wisely highlighted) is very insightful.
Thanks.
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Becky
Even though I was dreading the possibility, I thought this question might come up. I am 35 and I was married but a drunk driver hit and run changed that. My wife and unborn daughter… sorry, I tried to get through this a few times but I guess it’s still too sore a point but I think you get the idea so I will just leave it there…
Let me just say that while any responsible and diligent person must acknowledge that there are legal issues connected to marriage. To think otherwise is to live blindly in a romantic wonderland. Not a bad place to spend the weekend but a lousy foundation for a marriage…
Anyone thinking about getting married MUST be willing to discuss not only how money should be handled, whether or not they want children and how they imagine their children should be raised but also their hopes, dreams, fears and prior emotional sore points that might create future problems.
Likewise, after a couple are married there are even more things that need to be addressed. Who will take care of the children if we die, life insurance, a will to distribute assets according to everyone’s wishes, etc.
The issue isn’t whether or not these issues should be discussed but what focus should the discussion have?
When you focus on a pre-nup, you are inevitably also saying that something may come up that could break the commitment you have to your spouse. As I have mentioned, I am not trying to be critical here but I still have to ask, why would you marry someone if you are starting your lives together with the acknowledgment that this possibility exists?
Please consider the possibilities here. If you truly claim to love and trust someone in a completely intimate manner what would be necessary to occur for this collapse to happen? If your spouse became sick would you stick by their side through it or would you bail? Would it matter whether or not the illness was cancer or a gambling addiction? What about if they pulled a Madoff made a really big mistake with an investment and lost 100k? Is that money more important than knowing that no matter what life throws at you, the two of you are walking through it together and “us” is stronger than that…
Please understand, I am not advocating that people blindly stick through anything without thought. Setting boundaries are a real part of being a responsible adult and if you realize that your spouse is having a problem (alcoholic, over-spending, whatever) there are appropriate steps that should be taken once that realization occurs…
My question is, what does a pre-nup really do in these situations? Does it do anything to help identify the problem early and remedy it or does it do anything at all to strengthen the relationship or does it simply provide a plan to divide the assets after a collapse?
I offer that there is a much greater benefit in couples intimately communicating about their dreams, goals, hurts and victories than focusing the start of their relationship on how to divide the spoils when it all falls apart…
I speak from some level of experience here… having a full bank account and decent rate of return on your retirement portfolio doesn’t even come close to the spiritual and emotional loss of “us” and I can say without recourse that if I had the opportunity it would be a split second decision to trade all it to start from scratch to get “us” back again…
I do acknowledge though that some may find it easier to hold on to the knowledge that their stuff is secure and waiting for them when the inevitable happens instead of risking every fiber of their being for “us” and if that is the case that’s fine as well… I do not hold any ill will towards you if you are in that camp and I wish you nothing but marital happiness… I am really not trying to be critical here even if I don’t quite understand the sentiment.
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This has turned into a great conversation. Thank you, everyone. And I realized that one simple change could have fostered things from the beginning. Instead of stating “prenups are for everyone”, Andy and I could have phrased it as, “are prenups for everyone?” I like that change so much, in fact, that I’m going to a rare title revision for the folks who will read this by e-mail in the morning…
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I’m going to assume here that everyone reading this blog believes that it is important to have an emergency fund in place.
That we all feel better knowing that we have set aside money specially designated for future disasters. And I’m pretty sure most of us have also thought about what would constitute an emergency and I’m hoping that the couples have talked to their partners about the emergency fund and you both have an understanding of when the money will be used.
How is having a pre-nup different? It’s planing for the worst case scenario before you are in the thick of it. It is a time for you and your partner to formalize how the relationship will end, if it ends before death. I know some have suggested just going through premarital counseling or financial planning instead of having a pre-nup in place. But what if you do get a divorce and you can’t stand the sight of your soon to be ex-partner, and all you want to do is screw them over because they’ve broken your heart? Are you sure you are going to be civil then and split fairly? Some people might just want to take a chance on their state divorce laws, but state laws change what if the laws change and you don’t like the new laws, you’ll have no choice but to follow them. So why not have a legal agreement in place before your emotions are high, and you do something you might someday regret, outlining what is expected if you should get a divorce?
Just as I’m sure many couples or people have wills or living trusts in place for when the marriage ends with a death, so why wouldn’t you have a plan in place for when the marriage ends in divorce?
One thing is for certain, the future is an unknown variable, so I hope that when I find Mr. Right and we do get married it is until death does us part, but I will want a pre-nup in place, just in case.
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If only money makes a marriage work. There are many more issues that a couple face. Revolving your lives around money is certainly not going to help the growing divorce rates amongst Americans. It would be perhaps more beneficial to cultivate stronger and meaningful relationships instead of channeling all your mind to money and only money!
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i am totally for them since i have seen how ugly a divorce gets when money comes into the scene. i somewhat peaceful one becomes a damn bloodbath which drains out both parties and leaves them mortal enemies. To avoid that possibility, just sign the papers and forget about it. But get me right i am not saying that you get pre-nups so that you divorce whimsically, far from it. i value marriage but you have to be prepared for the curve balls that life throws at you
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We don’t have a pre-nup, and I hadn’t really given them much through before now – I guess I tended to think of pre-nups as something that rich people get as protection against gold diggers. But thinking about it some more, I don’t see a problem with them, and wouldn’t object to having one. As others have said, at the very least, people should discuss the issues that they raise prior to getting married.
And as for the idea that getting a pre-nup is like planning for divorce – nobody goes into a marriage expecting to get divorced, but it’s only sensible to realise that none of us know what the future might bring. Most people will (hopefully!) only marry someone they already know they’re financially compatible with, but people can change, sometimes for the worse, and that’s something that often just can’t be forseen or controlled. It amazes me anyone seriously thinks that people should stay in a marriage at all costs. Really? Even when a partner becomes abusive, or is unfaithful, or turns psychotic (as another commenter mentioned) – or when the love simply isn’t there anymore? I’m all for trying to ride out the rough patches, and make marriages work, but not to the point of blind idealism. I think that is the value in a pre-nup (as well as the communication involved) – it will be helpful if things go wrong and your spouse changes for the worse in unpredictable ways. Chances are that’ll never happen, but it’s like an insurance policy, and I doubt that many people refuse to get insurance because they think it’ll make it easier for something to go wrong.
Having said that – I don’t think they’re right for ‘everyone’ – very few things are. But I do think everyone going into a marriage could benefit from at least considering if a pre-nup might be worthwhile, rather than having a knee jerk negative response and dismissing the whole idea out of hand on idealistic grounds.
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All of my money belongs to my wife. And all of my wife’s money belongs to me.
It’s scary.
It’s supposed to be.
Making a total commitment for life is scary.
Will I say different if it all goes wrong? Perhaps.
But if I want to make a total commitment for life again, I would need to play it that way again.
The thing that makes a total commitment for life scary is also the thing that makes it exciting and romantic and a grand adventure.
At least that’s how I see it.
Rob
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One assumption that runs through many of the comments is that it is fair to divide assets (or debts) evenly between the two spouses. This means that everything that was bought or saved during the marriage will be split evenly, which on the surface seems fair. For whatever reason (because it seems fair?) many states seem to use it (the state I live in certainly does).
However, one issue with this is that it doesn’t take into consideration future earnings or earning differentials. One spouse may walk away with a significantly higher earning potential than the one who stayed home with the children, worked part time to help keep the family going, or simply didn’t take every possible promotion because it would require sacrifices that wasn’t best for the family (even if it would have been best for the person). Many states don’t have alimony or have limited alimony, so the spouse who stayed home (or didn’t maximize earning potential at every possible chance) gets screwed.
This is one situation that pre-nups should look at: the allocation of future earnings (alimony) when one spouse is sacrificing earning potential for the good of the family.
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In the immortal words of Chris Rock:
“Everybody needs a prenuptial agreement. People think you gotta be rich to get a prenup. Oh no!
You got 20 million and your wife want 10, big deal! You ain’t starvin’.
But if you make 30,000… and your wife want 15, you might have to kill her.”
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@Kevin (#37) (No, it’s not me, it’s a different Kevin):
“A pre-nup allows a couple to customize the legal terms of their marriage instead of lazily defaulting to the general “form contract” of state family law. It gives a couple the power to wade into the state family code and prevent the application to their marriage of outmoded, unfair, or inappropriate laws. ”
But that’s just it – no, it doesn’t.
I’m sure it varies from jurisdiction from jurisdiction, but where I live (Ontario, Canada), pre-nups are virtually worthless. The thing is, if the law grants you certain rights, and you sign an agreement relinquishing those rights, the law still trumps your agreement. That is, if you change your mind later, the law takes priority over your agreement. You cannot sign away certain rights that the law grants you. For example, you cannot own a slave, even if you convince him to sign an agreement signing away his right to not be a slave. The law still overrules your contract.
It’s the same thing with family law. In Ontario, there have been countless examples of couples in divorce court where the wife wants more than her pre-nup permits, and every single time, the judge will dismiss the pre-nup and go with what she’s entitled to under family law (almost universally more generous than what was in the pre-nup).
So in those cases, what in the heck was the value of the pre-nup at all? The value, of course, is the fee the lawyer collected convincing you it would hold any legal weight at all. Follow the money, folks. Who’s pushing these things? Lawyers. Who knows they’re actually legally worthless? Lawyers. And now you.
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Aaron,
I would be angry, because the pre-nup was a contract that my husband and I discussed in length and mutually agreed upon. To just attempt to destroy this without previous discussion would bother me greatly. Same as if he decided to spend our agreed-upon emergency fund on a new car without any discussion.
It’s not the pre-nup destruction, per se, but the changing a joint decision without my input.
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@K (#49):
“Can anyone guarantee that I’ll never become an alcoholic? Can anyone guarantee that I won’t become addicted to gambling or drugs? What if one of us were become an abusive spouse? There are so many unknowns in this world.”
Wow. Every single thing you just listed is a CHOICE. They’re not “unknowns,” they’re things you will either choose to do, or you won’t. It’s entirely up to you. And if your fiancee is unsure about the choices you will make when faced with the decision of whether or not to beat her or stick a needle in your arm, then a pre-nup won’t save your marriage. She should run.
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Yes, those are all choices, but those are also diseases. And if someone is predisposed to suffer from such an illness makes a wrong decision ONCE, then it can snowball into one heck of a problem. I see absolutely no problem with someone trying to protect a loved one from themself should they make some bad decisions.
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Taking Aaron’s questions one by one:
“Does it do anything to help identify the problem early and remedy it” – Rarely.
“Does it do anything to help identify the problem early” – No.
“does it do anything at all to strengthen the relationship” – Yes. Serious communicating about difficult topics strengthens my marriage. There are certainly many ways to have these conversations without a prenup too.
“does it simply provide a plan to divide the assets after a collapse” – Well that’s what it’s *for*. No more, no less. Not because anybody expects the collapse, but because stuff happens. Your marriage got hammered by Fate in one way, and I am sorry that happened to you. Mine got hammered by Fate in another. Neither of us could have predicted either circumstance beforehand.
The way your marriage ended kept your faith in relationships intact; the way my marriage almost ended has taught me that while faith in relationships is a beautiful and necessary thing, it is no proof against failure.
“I offer that there is a much greater benefit in couples intimately communicating about their dreams, goals, hurts and victories…” – Well sure. I wouldn’t suggest a pre-nup *instead* of that. Intimately communicating about the good stuff is way more fun, for one thing.
“…than focusing the start of their relationship on how to divide the spoils when it all falls apart…” Maybe we are talking about a matter of degree. I don’t think a pre-nup should be the *focus* of anything, other than a number of conversations. I also object to the idea that a pre-nup is about “when” it all falls apart. It’s about *if* it all falls apart.
I think a lot of the objectors here feel like talking about something makes it more likely to happen. As someone who lived in an amazing level of denial for many years, you can believe me – never mentioning something actually does not make it go away.
Of the 10 married couples I know best, 1 of them is “divorce-proof.” They are the unhappiest couple I know. I don’t think this is a coincidence. Neither of them “believes” in divorce. This has allowed them to treat each other rather badly and get away with it. They have been married for 45 years.
The other 9 couples are committed, close, loving, and utterly fallible people. There is no safety net preventing any of us from coming home one day and discovering that our spouse has changed and doesn’t want to be with us anymore. It’s not like any of us spend time worrying or dwelling on that fact, but it is always with us.
Kevin (#71) is right – most contracts aren’t particularly enforceable, actually. But if you had the foresight to marry someone who tries to do the right thing even when they’re hurting and angry, a pre-nup can still make a painful, unexpected time marginally less painful.
It’s like having good health insurance. Nothing makes cancer treatment easy; but fighting with the insurance company can definitely make cancer treatment harder. Nobody *plans* to get divorced when they’re getting married, any more than they plan to get cancer.
Talking through a prenup as a small part of the big process of committing to one another could ease things a bit, should the worst some to pass. I fail to see how that can be controversial – but maybe I’m just old and bitter.
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I think a pre-nup is a great idea if one or more of the partners has significant net worth. For a young couple just starting out there probably isn’t much benefit.
@Jon (#17) – You get married once? What planet do you live on? Sure that is the ideal but it’s not the reality for everyone.
How about a pre-nup with an expiry date? Ie after 10 years it disappears?
@TML – You speak of the power of marriage like it’s built in stone. What happens if a spouse dies and the survivor (who has a lot of money) remarries – are you telling me a pre-nup is not a good idea?? What if the survivor has kids – do they want to jeopardize their financial future if the 2nd marriage doesn’t work out?
A lot of people living in dreamland here.
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@The Tim[35]:
You don’t have a vow with other drivers on the road? Really? Let me ask you, if a driver has a stop sign, do you expect them to stop? Why?
You may not have explicitly said “vows” to each other, but what are vows other than statements of intentions to others? In driving, those statement of intentions are handled by the “rules of the road” that you agree to when you gain your license. Breaking these rules of the road, and thereby the expectations of other drivers, is when situations become dangerous.
If you were to ask a person, “Do you intend to cause a car collision?”, they would answer no. Based on the logic presented, these people should then not get car insurance, because they intend not to cause a collision, and the other drivers have “vowed” not to do anything that would cause one also. Also, I would argue that few car collisions have a truly random factor that simply could not be accounted for by one or both drivers. In fact, official language was changed from “car accident” to “car collision”, expressly to emphasize the fact that the vast majority of them are avoidable.
I really do see these two situations as being very analogous. No one gets into their car expecting to cause a collision. No one enters a marriage expecting to get a divorce. (And yes, I’m quite confident that there are exceptions to both those statements. But let’s ignore the outliers.) Yet both happen every day.
@Kevin[73]:
You are clearly not very educated about the pathology of addiction. For people like K, it is usually not even a choice of whether they’re addicted to something, but more what they’re addicted to. And one of the defining terms of addiction is that the “choice” aspect you tout is severely limited, if present at all.
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I don’t know how anyone in their right mind could NOT get a pre-nup agreement. Getting married without one is as foolish as relying on a verbal contract.
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Four Pillars: Marriage is not for everyone. Someone who is considering a relationship but is worried about preserving their net worth should probably not get married. There is no need for it in that circumstance. The problem is that too many people want the sacred institution of marriage to evolve downward to meet the needs of those who shouldn’t be married. I (and others) say no, let those people design their own relationships. Leave marriage (and children) to those who cherish it. Yes, you could say that is a dream but I’m not going to surrender it just because of folks like the author of this post.
Prenup with an expiration date? How about fixed term, renewable marriages? Wouldn’t that be easier? Of course, the divorce lawyers would be unhappy about that. There is a lot of money to be made in the divorce business.
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Kevin (71), I’m an Ontario lawyer (granted, not family lawyer) and I’d disagree with your assessment that pre-nups don’t hold water here.
Certainly if the pre-nup is signed without your spouse getting independent legal advice, you’ll be in trouble. If it’s signed close to the wedding date, it’s open to an argument of coercion.
The biggest issue that we learn about in law school is the house. If I own 100% of a house, and after marriage my spouse moves in, she automatically owns 50%.
As I said, I’m a lawyer and I’m paid to look at the world and see what could go wrong (That said, I’m an optimist).
I don’t think many people get married thinking they will get divorced. But close to half of marriages end in divorce. As someone else stated you can go in with the best of intentions to never ever leave, but what if the other person does?
I will state that every girlfriend who I’ve mentioned a pre-nup to is severely against it.
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I have a friend who had a whirlwind courtship of all of a month and got married. Stunningly it worked for them, but after about ten years of marriage she was taken by cancer. Some years later he had another whirlwind courtship, tried getting married, got majorly used and crapped on. After a year of emotional healing, he did it again, and this one married him. In all these cases, he was/is convinced that “this is the one” and he was/is totally commited to the relationship.
No pre-marital counciling, no prenup, no nothing.
But now if something happens to him tomorrow, a woman who has known his daughter for less than three months will excercise total control of her future. Even if she is a decent and loving person, has she even had time to learn his idea of plans he and the daughter made for her future? What if he read her wrong like he did the second woman and she turns out not so decent and not so loving? Think all the money for the daughter’s college fund is safe? How about the money he intended for his daughter from his first wife’s life insurance which he neglected to put into trust for her?
Most people don’t live together for years before marriage. Most people don’t even ask the questions and simple assume they’re on the same page based on head nods, “maybe someday’s”, “that’d be nice” comments.
After four years of dating it wasn’t until pre-marriage counciling that I learned my wife didn’t want children and felt it was okay to spend over a thousand dollars without talking about the purchase with me. She’d never come strong on the issue with kids, I always just figured we’d have a few, and she never had a thousand dollars to spend, so that issue never came up.
Needless to say we had some discussions. But I will say that often, people will sidestep, change subject, avoid, etc. conversations that make them uncomfortable, hoping things will “work out”. You need a format to frame and bring those points into the open. If I’d have asked her outside of marriage counciling if she wanted kids I doubt I’d have gotten the definitive “no” she provided in the sessions (she changed her mind years later, but I had to go into the marriage with the idea that I wasn’t going to have children).
You never completely know someone, and they can change, you can change, etc. I always figured I had nothing to “protect”, but now that I have kids, you can bet I’m going to protect them via will and pre-nup if something ever happens to my wife and I’m looking to remarry, and I’d expect my wife to do the same if something happens to me.
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I think it depends on what you have going into the marriage. My wife and I had nothing other than student loan debt and our love when we were married. We really didn’t have any wealth or assets to protect. And I figure that if I become wealthy and we divorce, then she’s at least a part of what made it possible for me to become wealthy, so she’s entitled to her share. Our marriage is a partnership.
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Prenup with an expiration date? How about fixed term, renewable marriages? Wouldn’t that be easier?
Lol – that’s brilliant! Yes, it would be easier although probably not that realistic. If a pre-nup is hard to bring up then arguing over the length of the renewable term might be really awkward.
You have a very specific definition of marriage which you have applied to your own situation and seem to feel that everyone else should follow that same definition (ie “not everyone should get married”). The fact is that basically anyone who is of age can get married (in my country at least).
Many people get married knowing full well that their marriage might not last for whatever reason and if things don’t work out then they will move on. According to your definition they shouldn’t get married but the reality is that they can and do. Some people have what I consider to be very odd marriages – maybe they don’t live together or maybe they have an “open” marriage. Whether I like it or agree with it doesn’t matter – those couples are married and in my humble opinion have every right to be.
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Tim @35, “Last I checked, I hadn’t made any vows with the other drivers on the road.”
Well said Tim… Well said…
I have been married for about 5 months (dated 5 years). I actually considered getting a pre-nup. However, after talking to my wife extensively about the issue, I realized that it was hurting the way my soon-to-be wife viewed my priorities. She began to express the fact she felt I valued money more then her or our covenant relationship…
I completely understand the argument that it is like insurance, however, I disagree with the notion.
I have been with my wife now for 5 years and I can honestly say that I would give everything I have in the world for her (including my things, money, and life). I don’t think one should consider marriage in the first place if one is not prepared for the strong responsibility and commitment that comes with it.
There has never been a divorce in my entire family (for 4 generations that I know of). I am not being naive – I witnessed my parents go through some extremely tough times in their marriage – but when you put your spouse BEFORE yourself (and all your things, money, life) there is no need for a pre-nup.
That being said, I do not hold a negative perception of those who have a pre-nup (nor do I believe that we are somehow “better” because we don’t). I do however believe that because my wife and I had the discussion about a pre-nup for many weeks, and talked through our emotions and beliefs etc., our marriage has been better for it. I can see how the same would be true for those who decide to get one.
Cheers,
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I wonder how many of these people who are deadset against pre-nups are already married and didn’t get one? Probably most if not all. Of course they’re going to argue that people don’t need them, its too late for them to get one! Wonder if their tunes will change after a few of them go through a messy ugly divorce? I bet it would!
As so many have pointed out, even with the best intentions ~40-50% of marriages end in divorce. Likening this to an insurance policy seems false, because no risk manager would take a policy with a 50% chance a claim will be made (unless the premium was astronomical).
I have significant assets and a significant inheritance coming my way one day. I’m still single and still young (well..32) and I’m currently seriously involved with a lawyer. You can rest assured we will both want a pre-nup, even though both of us intend to be married for life to one person only.
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Couldn’t agree more with #27. Great advice about the importance of considering how your prospective spouse would behave in a divorce.
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“As so many have pointed out, even with the best intentions ~40-50% of marriages end in divorce. Likening this to an insurance policy seems false, because no risk manager would take a policy with a 50% chance a claim will be made (unless the premium was astronomical).”
So what you’re saying is that marriage is too risky to get involved in? I agree!
The point of the pre-nup is that it protects the assets of the person that earned them if a separation occurs. It’s total BS spouted by the partner with fewer assets/potential net worth that it should be romantic. If a woman is worth less financially than her partner it is in her interests to not want a pre-nup because American marital law is heavily biased towards women.
Personally I think there is no benefit to men to get married and that is why they never bring it up unless prompted by women or badgered into proposing. Any man who plans to have more money than a homeless man needs a pre-nup and if he doesn’t get one he is a moron. Just because something has a social stigma doesn’t mean the stigma is right.
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I’m 28 and am getting married in 5 months. My opinion on prenups falls somewhere in the middle of most of these comments. I have no issue with someone wanting a prenup. To go and say that no one should ever get one and it’s a plan for divorce is taking it a little overboard. What I’ve learned, and continue to learn is that a relationship is about more than just love, there’s a practical side to it that needs to be taken care of as well, which is why if someone felt strongly about a prenup I would have no problem with that. I’d love if all of our comments had ages next to the name, cause I’d be curious how the split is on pro-/anti- prenup by age. I think some are being a little naive/idealistic in their interpretations of marriage, and seem to think that everyone else’s marriages should fit into those ideals.
That being said, I’m not 100% for prenups either, and in fact am not going to have one for my upcoming marriage. My fiancee and I have lived together for 4 years, and so have had every kind of talk about money that you could imagine. Because of this, I don’t need to bring up a prenup just to spur those conversations. We’ve had them, and I am very happy with how her views and my views align when it comes to money.
I’d like to throw out another wrinkle to this whole conversation based on my personal experience. As I mentioned above, I have lived with my fiancee for 4 years (been with her ~5). When we first got together, I had just finished my Masters, and since then have amassed a fairly sizable nest-egg. So, the fact is that most of that money was made while we were together too, so the emphasis in a prenup about money before vs. after getting married seems a little blurry to me. How is the wealth I amassed while we were together, but not legally married that much different from the wealth I’ll amass once we sign on the dotted line?
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Please stop saying that half of marriages end in divorce. Credible evidence is that the true number of divorces is much less than that.
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JD –
I think I see the difference in camps here – could be totally wrong, but I’ll take a stab at it.
As some others have stated, for some people, marriage is a spiritual bond. ‘The two persons become one flesh’ and all – something the Mrs. outlined very well in a post. When that is the case, when you have that deep in your soul as a part of your being, then the ‘stuff’ doesn’t matter. It’s just stuff.
For some people it’s not about that at all. And since I’m not a part of that set, I can’t speak for what it is about for them. Now that’s not to imply that their marriage is any less than anyone else’s. But, I would guess that this is the pro-pre-nup camp. I have to assume that they have good intentions. To me, this is more of a partnership than a marriage.
To me, a pre-nup, by it’s existence, says that stuff is more important than the mate. To me, it says, “I don’t trust you”. Our vows said, “until death do us part”, and we meant it. If you are not ready for that, then you should not be getting married.
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@Steve #87
Man, I kinda feel bad thinking about what kind of women you’ve had in your life that make you so adamant. I was with my fiancee for 5 years without a peep/nudge/hint about marriage from her (although I heard it from my mom!). After I proposed, I asked her about this (I was curious cause I had heard all the same stories as you) and she said she definitely had talked to her friends and mom about it, but figured I’d ask when I was ready (granted, she’s much more of an independent spirit than a lot of women). I very much look forward to being married, and to say that the only reason men propose is cause of being badgered by their women is absurd. Again, what kind of women do you go out with?
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@Adam (#85):
“Of course (people who are already married) are going to argue that people don’t need them, its too late for them to get one!”
Says who?
What’s stopping a married couple from drawing up and signing a pre-nup?
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I’m engaged (to K #49, as it would be), and I think the arguments that a prenup is guaranteeing – or pre-empting – your marriage to fail are total bunk. As K mentioned, we both come from broken families. Divorce is nasty and all too likely. Why not walk into your marriage with your eyes wide open? That being said, a pre-nup is not an easy out. It’s a way to protect our current and future assets, as well as our individual security should the worst happen.
@Kevin #73 – Addiction is not a choice. There’s a reason alcoholism is classified as a disease. I am well aware of K’s family history, just as he is aware of my family’s history of cancer. He’s not running for the hills because I have a high risk of contracting cancer, nor am I peacing out because there is a possibility he might one day struggle with alcoholism – although I do not foresee that happening, not on my watch. But I digress…
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@ Kevin #92
By definition a pre-nuptial agreement is an agreement made prior to the marriage or “nuptials”
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I’m wondering what people think about couples getting medically tested before being physically intimate (STD screening). I’d place a pre-nuptial agreement below that.
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Don: (89) You suggest that credible evidence suggests that the divorce rate is way lower than we’re saying. You may be correct, but why not send a link? According to what I found:
# The divorce rate in 2005 (per 1,000 people) was 3.6 — the lowest rate since 1970, and down from 4.2 in 2000 and from 4.7 in 1990. (The peak was at 5.3 in 1981, according to the Associated Press.)
# The marriage rate in 2005 (per 1,000) was 7.5, down from 7.8 the previous year.
If those numbers are correct, the number of divorces to marriages last year were 48%. Obviously this is not a foolproof method of determining the true divorce rate, but it’s a reasonable way to make an estimate.
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CNN Money actually had a well thought out and written article on merging finances and how a prenuptial agreement could factor into that.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/30/pf/marrying_finances.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2009103004
And I agree with a few of you from above, the idea of a prenup is good for some but not for all. Andy takes too wide of a brush stroke to think that what was best for him would be best for all.
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My Mom didn’t have a prenup when she remarried in mid-life. She and her partner had verbally agreed to keep their assets separate, and both felt comfortable with this arrangement after dating for 10+ years. A year or 2 after they were married, he developed a medical condition that affected his brain and his personality. For a lot of complicated reasons, their marriage fell apart. All of a sudden, he was not the kind, resonable man that he always had been, and he started fighting for her assets. It was an expensive and painful experience for my mother.
While the circumstances may be a bit rare, it is not uncommon for people’s personalities to be very different in marriage than in divorce. I think a prenup is good to protect all parties in the event of a case like my Mom’s.
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For everyone who is so strongly against pre-nups I guess you didn’t have significant retirement savings or other assets at the time you got married. By the time I marry my boyfriend, I will own an apartment (or have a mortgage anyway), have significant retirement savings as well as stocks, bonds and other taxable investments. If something unforeseeable happens, I’m supposed to be okay with him taking my assets that I earned prior to our marriage?
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I didn’t have a prenuptial agreement with my husband. Mostly, we wanted to keep the costs down.
In France, they’re called “marriage contracts”, and although they do have a bad reputation (instead of sharing everything you specify what you’re sharing, what remain one person’s, what remains the other’s, etc) I think they are really good because they force you to think about it.
I don’t think everybody needs a prenup. But a lot of the time, that’s what it takes for people to talk about money, and that talk needs to happen. You need to know where you stand on things before you get married. Then you can make your decision, and your decision might be to get married in spite of your differences, of course.
I don’t think talks on money are nearly the only essential conversation people tend to skip. Talking about politics or religion is probably a good idea too, as these can split the best of friends, and no doubt could split couples unexpectedly if not discussed at some point.
Talking about your values. Talking about your projects.
With my husband, we might not have had a prenup (or “marriage contract”), but we did have extensive conversation about everything we could think of. To us, it wasn’t about not trusting each other. It was about making sure we agreed on the “rules” upon whch we were building our marriage.
What’s infidelity? How do you define it? I’m pretty sure nobody wants to discuss it when planning to get married, but still, if your spouse thinks oral isn’t cheating, you might want to be aware of that. And let them know if your views are different.
Our thinking was: at no point of our marriage can we blame each other for doing something we never warned them we were against. We made sure not to expect anything “went without saying”. People can’t read your mind, what’s obvious for them might not be for you, and vice-versa.
I don’t think you necessarily need to do it officially, with legal people around, but I do think extensive talks about everything you can think of are important to build a relationship. You know you can trust the person, and if something happens, it’s clear to everyone whether it was okay or not.
But I’ll go further than that. I think you need to keep that level of communication during the whole relationship. We discuss our budget regularly. We discuss our spending, as well, except for our pocket money (although we end up still talking about it, but we don’t make it an obligation).
A lot of unexpected things might happen. It’s good to try and be prepared. What will you do if one of you gets sick or handicapped? Do you want kids? If so, how many? Do you want to live in a house, and apartment? Do you want to own it? Do you want to travel? How important is your career?
If your projects are too different, it’s good to know before getting married. Not so you put a stop to it (although you might) but so you’re prepared, and can start compromising. And find solutions that make both of you happy.
Everything that comes up before the wedding is something that won’t have to come up after, at the worst time possible.
It is pragmatic, but I don’t see it as a lack of trust, and I don’t think marrying someone is any less romantic just because you know exactly where you stand with them. At least this way we knew we really loved each other, and not a wrong perception we had of each other.
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