On Friday night, we had some good frugal fun. Kris and I got together with a group of my old high school friends to go bowling and eat pizza. It was just like the good ol’ days — but with a bunch of grade-school children added to the mix.
Over pepperoni pizza and root beer, the conversation turned to the economy. I asked my brother Jeff how the family box factory is doing. “To be honest,” Jeff said, “we’re about to finish our best month since October 2008. And if you look at actual daily sales, this will be our best month since February 2008. It’s our best month in two years.”
“That’s great,” I said. “Maybe this means the economy has finally turned a corner.”
We’ve believed for years that sales at Custom Box Service are a fairly accurate barometer of the economy’s overall health; our sales always reflect where the country’s economy will be six months down the road. Sales at the box factory started to erode in autumn 2007, for example, before falling off a cliff in March 2008. Things bottomed out last February, with our lowest sales since the company incorporated in 1995. So, if the company’s sales are finally improving, we take that as a sign that the U.S. economy is on the road to recovery.
“How’s your business been doing?” Jeff asked our friend Ron. Ron’s family owns a wholesale nursery, and their sales have been down too.
“Rotten,” Ron said. “Last year was awful.”
“I think the economy’s been bad all over,” Kris said. “I just spent a week in eastern Oregon for work. It’s been a while since I was in Pendleton, and I was shocked at how many empty storefronts there were. A lot of places have gone out of business.”
“I keep waiting for things to turn around,” Ron said. “Just today we got a huge order, which is a relief. It’s an order we expected last fall. I’m just glad it finally came through. ”
“Yeah,” said Jeff. “I think a lot of people put off ordering because they were letting their inventories run low. But that just made things worse. Our sales were down so much last year that we couldn’t fund employee pensions and Christmas bonuses were a lot smaller than usual. At least we didn’t have to lay anyone off.”
“But January was a good month,” I said. “That’s a good sign, right?”
“Yeah,” Jeff said. “And another good sign is that some of our suppliers are raising prices. In fact, we think some of them will be going up 15%!” — Fifteen percent is a huge price increase for paper — “So maybe that means things are turning around. Or maybe it’s just a sign that there’s inflation in the future that’ll make things worse. I guess if you were optimistic, you could say these are signs of an improving economy. It’s definitely a step in the right direction, but it could just be a brief peak on the roller coaster of the Great Recession.”
I, for one, am an optimist. (Not just about the economy, but all things.) I think things have finally turned a corner. Unemployment is still lagging behind (as it always does and always will), but from my perspective, the economy seems to have hit bottom, and is finally beginning to show some signs of improvement.
When I got home from bowling Friday night, I dug out the numbers for the most recent poll from Get Rich Slowly and MoneyRates. Since mid-January, visitors to both sites have been answering the question, “Where do you think the economy sits right now?” Here are the results based on more than 1200 responses:
- 2% — Strong growth. Full Steam ahead!
- 15% — On solid ground and growing some, thank goodness.
- 43% — Stagnant. Not growing, but at least not getting worse.
- 20% — Not horrible, but looks like it’s going downhill.
- 21% — Free falling. I’m bracing for the worst.
In general, GRS and MoneyRates readers aren’t yet optimistic. Many of you think things are stagnant still, and nearly as many think conditions are getting worse. Fewer than one in five believe that the economy is actually improving.
A poll is one thing, but I’d like to hear your actual thoughts. How do you feel about the current economy? Do you think we’ve finally hit bottom? Or are things still getting worse? How has the recession affected you and your family? What do you think it’ll take for things to get better?
This article is about Economics, News Monday, 1st February 2010 (by J.D. Roth)


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February 1st, 2010 at 5:10 am
I heard a quote from a journalist that summed up anecdotal accounts of the economy the best. It went something like
“the economy is doing okay when I have still have my job and feel secure about it”.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:16 am
I like to think things are starting to make a rebound, I hear a lot less about people complaining about jobs and the economy in general. For me this recession hasn’t really taken much of a toll.
The value of my home has neither depreciated or appreciated which is both bad and good. The biggest thing affecting me has been the drastic drop in my 401k and retirement accounts. I look at it as a blessing in disguise though since I am now buying into my funds at much lower prices. I still have a long time to recover so I hope to see this work out well for me.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:43 am
I work at an academic medical center.
We’ve had a total hiring freeze since Feb 2009. It was lifted (a little bit) in Jan 2010, and we can once more at least submit requests to start hiring people to fill badly needed positions–all of which have been empty for over a year.
Also, a COL increase in staff pay that was scheduled for April 2008 but which didn’t happen is supposed to happen (hopefully!) in April 2010.
So yes, things are looking up.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:52 am
I personally feel the economy is stagnant. Husband & I are still working. My pay is the same; he got a 3% increase last year which was quickly eaten up by a 22% increase in medical insurance premiums (because of that he actually ended up making less than before the pay increase). We have been working on paying off CC debt these past few months, but rates have increased, so the principal is being paid down slower than it was a year ago.
We are very thankful we are still working and able to pay the mortgage & other bills and put food on the table (who knew teens could eat so much). I think when I see more job want ads in the paper/on-line, more houses being sold instead of sitting on the market for months on end and less foreclosure/auction listings upwards of 2+ full pages (a lot in this area), I might become a bit more hopeful that the economy is turning around and starting to grow some again.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:53 am
I’m an optimist too. But I am more of a long-term optimist on this question and a short-term pessimist.
My take is rooted in a belief that the cause of the recession/depression is the relentless promotion of Buy-and-Hold Investing for over 30 years. If you look at the historical record, you see that there has never been a time when The Stock Selling Industry pushed this “idea” without causing an economic crisis. Going back to 1900, we have never seen an economic crisis that was not preceded by the widespread promotion of the idea that you don’t need to pay attention to the price of stocks when buying them.
If that’s the problem, then the solution is for us all to come to accept that the $12 trillion in funny money that we were treating as real at the top of the bubble was all just a bull market fantasy. There are millions of businesses that never would have been started if we had been giving people accurate information about the value of their portfolios. Those businesses are vastly undercapitalized (through no significant fault of their owners) and will continue to fail until the capitalist system has completed its work of :”punishing” businesses that are started with inadequate capitalization. It will probably take another five years for this process to be completed.
The good news is that I believe that the economic devastation we will experience from our belief in Buy-and-Hold is going to be so great this time that there will be little taste for continued promotion of it in the wake of the economic collapse we have caused for ourselves. Putting Buy-and-Hold behind us would be like removing a ball and chain from an economy that has been lusting for far greater levels of productivity for three decades now.
In the old days, most middle-class people did not invest in stocks and these sorts of “ideas” did only limited damage to our economic and political systems. My belief is that we are a society going through growing pains. There are now millions of middle-class people investing in stocks. If millions of middle-class people are going to invest their retirement money in stocks, we are going to need to permit them access to information about how to invest in more reasonable ways that what The Stock Selling Industry has been putting forward for the past three decades.
We will survive this. But my belief is that it is going to need to get a whole lot worse before we will be willing as a society to take the steps we need to take to get things pointed in the right direction once again.
Rob
February 1st, 2010 at 6:19 am
Mr. Sam and I are both very busy at work, and have been for some time, but neither of us received bonuses or an increase in pay (I did get back some of my salary that was cut last year but I’m not counting that as a pay increase ). Both of our companies should be thinking about hiring people but neither are (as far as I know).
The real estate market, at least here in So. Fla., is moving. Houses that are priced right are selling and seeling quickly many with multiple offers. I think that is a good sign.
It is also season here in So. Fla., time when the snow birds are here, last year season was quiet. This year it seems to be more normal, lots of bad drivers going slow with their blinkers on, lots of people in the restaurants, the society balls seem to be close to normal (raising similar monies as events in 2007-2008 season, and a couple have raised more). Shops seem busy too but not sure how many people are spending big money, for So. Fla. the season (which includes the holiday season) is the time when retailers do the vast majority of their business. I’m attending a charity event in a couple of weeks at a fashion house and it will be interesting to see if people are buying (I won’t be, never do).
I’m an optimist too, and I think the economy is slowly getting better but without jobs its going to be a slow recovery.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:26 am
beforewisdom is dead on. We don’t care so much about the general economy as we do about our own personal economies. When my kids ask me what the “Great Recession” was like a couple decades down the road, I’m not going to have anything interesting to say–because I kept my job, I kept my home, I didn’t really have to cut back in any measurable way. And that’s what I think makes it so hard for Congress to get public support for economic stimulus (or bailouts, depending on your take) or fixing healthcare or whatever. We all look at things through our own lens. If you’re not the one fighting with your healthcare provider, then it doesn’t seem like anything’s wrong with the system. If you have your job, then you don’t feel like trillions need to be spent to fix the economy.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:27 am
I feel I’m probably the poorest person reading your website, with an 8 person family and an average monthly income of about 1100 dollars.
In the past 2 years.
My honey has been laid off twice. He hasn’t been able to find a job at all, despite being highly qualified for a variety of things that are usually not only in demand. But high paying demand. He finally signed up for school and is halfway to getting a degree in welding and being a journeyman.
Both of the parents I was babysitting for cannot afford a babysitter anymore. One, a single mother, lost her job and is living with her mother. The other, her husband lost his job and is staying at home with their son.
My house depreciated almost 40 thousand dollars.
My electric bill went up 8% in spite of a multitude of energy saving measures. It comes out that the power company raised their rates.
The local water company tried the same thing. There were protests in the streets practically when the whole town’s bill went up an average of 20 dollars.
There are 2 houses on my street for sale, both of them fairly decent and in a good neighborhood. Both have been empty for at least a year.
Robberies and home invasions are up, unemployment is up. Gun sales are up.
It’s not a very good time to be living in some places. If you have a steady job, with say, tenure. Awesome. Otherwise, those blue collar guys are having a very hard time of it. My family included. It’s a good thing I’ve got some serious hippy/homesteader leanings and can do things like sew and cook from scratch (not to mention budget within an inch of my life) or we’d have lost our house long since.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:40 am
IT is picking up. I keep a good list of contacts, both for headhunters and “known-good” tech workers, and this is the first time I can recall being completely tapped out of good tech workers. I keep in contact with several IT recruiters, and I have 3 very nice positions for both junior and senior level Linux admins, as well as some DBA and dev slots, and I can’t put forth any names.
From about February of last year until September, I received maybe 2 recruiter calls. After September, I started getting more, and now I’m fielding about two a week.
Sounds like recovery, to me.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:45 am
We get mixed signals about the economy here in Canada. The government would have us believe everything is getting better and that we’re much better off than the U.S., but our economy is so closely linked to the U.S. I don’t think we’re going to pick up a lot until our neighbour-to-the-South does as well. However, our housing market is booming in some places enough to worry economists that people can’t afford to buy, or that we’ll create a bubble.
To me, the economy looks stagnate because my industry is still hurting, hiring and wages have been frozen for over a year and a half, and the costs of everything seem to be going up (like my rent!) It’s starting to feel like the economy is an excuse to raise prices and exploit employees.
February 1st, 2010 at 6:46 am
I think that things are getting better everyday, we may not see the economy comletely rolling, but yes it is improving. Specially January 2010 brought many jobs and the job scene is actually looking to be “recuperating”. For me, I paid off my car loan, stil have a stable full time job, sufficient emergency funds .. I am waiting for the banks to shoot their interest rates but I know it’s gonna take some time.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:02 am
I would love to think that the economy is getting better and more people will be able to prosper. But I suspect that if there is a little upturn, it is only the prelude to another dip. There hasn’t been any event or change that would actually account for a better economy — the stimulus money hasn’t done much stimulating, and there hasn’t been any solution to things like the rising cost of health care and other serious drags on the economy. Maybe the new plans Obama mentioned in the State of the Union address, like the tax benefits to small businesses that hire new employees, will have an effect — but those won’t happen unless the Congress agrees and acts…
February 1st, 2010 at 7:06 am
Short term, probably. Long term, it’s kind of one big structural problem.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:20 am
@ #5 Rob Bennett: The selling of the idea of “Buy and Hold” is the cause of the recession? What’s your definition of “buy and hold?” I believe you may be confusing causation with correlation.
I believe proper “buy and hold” strategies incorporate value investing, which is price conscious, dollar-cost-averaging, which buys more shares at lower prices, and diversification. Following these time-tested practices would have netted a return during the so-called “lost decade” of more than 4%, which is not exciting but certainly not negative and it outpaces inflation.
@JD: My anecdotal evidence is that my investment advisory firm just had the best quarter in revenue since opening for business in 2006; 80% of the unfinished or long-time unsold homes on my street have sold in the past two months (although for low prices); and a neighbor out of work for 18 months (he’s a research PhD professor) just had 2 promising interviews and says grant money is flowing again.
It’s quite a relative statement to say that the “worst is over.” The “worst” is likely over; however, the “worst” was horrific. I would characterize the current environment as challenging and cautionary, much like a mild recession. I believe we are now moving out of recession but will still feel recessionary pressures for up to two years.
Of course, perception is everything. I’m an optimist like you. My net worth is lower today than it was three years ago but I am happier, and therefore “richer,” than I’ve ever been.
Thanks for the insight and “street views.”
Kent @ The Financial Philosopher
February 1st, 2010 at 7:27 am
I’m optimistic that we’ve seen the bottom and we’re in the midst of recovery. But I do think it will be a couple years before we (everyday people) start to really see and feel the impact which won’t be until companies are hiring and home values are rising again.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:41 am
I think it’s picking up.
An old associate came to me asking if I could do a part-time programming gig for him. I’ve gotten gigs here and there over the last 18 months, but this is the first time in at least that long that someone has come looking for me with a project.
Also, at work everyone got a 2% raise this year, there was no raise last year.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:48 am
I think that short term it’s headed down a little after what feels like a brief respite, but that over the next 6-8 months it will improve. Of course I have no basis whatsoever for thinking that — it’s just a feeling. I would like to see less craziness overall once things do improve though.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:56 am
I am optimistic. The recession has not hugely affected my family. That is a blessing. But we have been tightening up on spending across my entire family! Excess is truly out and I think that is how it will be for years to come. Saving is very important so we can continue to enjoy our current lifestyle. Family vacations are still in, just saving up to pay for vacation before going.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:56 am
JD, just to let you know, when I tried to visit your link to the Custom Box Service website, my virus scanner blocked it and indicated that the website attempted to upload a virus to my browser. You might want to have your brother’s IT guys double-check their web server.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:01 am
Hi JD, I am optimistic. In many ways 2009 was the best year I’ve had. I spent way less than I ever have in my life, but I paid off a good chunk of debt in the process. I think that the economy has hit bottom and we’ll inch along in the “L” shape Suze Orman described last year. There is no quick fix — no “V” shape on the horizon and I appreciate that because I hope that we learn something from this downturn. I hope we learn it and it sticks this time — Get. Rich. Slowly!
February 1st, 2010 at 8:02 am
I’m an optimist. However, I the reality is based more on a state by state basis. For instance, I live in California: A state known for it’s bubble economies. I think we are usually the first to go into a recession and the last to come out of one.
However with that said, my husband and I have been lucky, we have been able to maintain our life style on a slightly reduced salary, and even pay off a bunch of credit card debt. I’m hopeful for a good year this year, but I’ll be okay (financially) if the recovery doesn’t affect CA until next.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:03 am
Kent,
The idea that dollar-cost averaging is buying more shares at “lower prices” is one of the most ridiculous financial myths perpetuated by the financial services industry. You’re buying shares (essentially) regardless of price. If you had $1,200 to invest in Company X, why would it ever make sense to put in $100/mo for 12 months if you feel that, right now, the company is undervalued (which is the basis for investing, right?). I’ll tell you why — so your broker earns a nice commission on 12 trades. Dollar cost averaging is a joke.
To Rob’s point, “Buy and Hold” certainly lifts the price of some shares. If everyone invested in a Vanguard Entire Market Index Fund, that’s going to boost the prices of all stocks, regardless of value. Now think about when the recession came — everyone dumped their stocks, but more importantly, their MUTUAL FUNDS/INDEX FUNDS. The index sells of everything, regardless of whether it’s priced fairly or not. Thus, you get into a situation like March 2009, where everything had been dumped, regardless of long-term value, and it made for a great buying opportunity on dozens of solid, valuable companies (AAPL, MSFT, etc).
February 1st, 2010 at 8:08 am
@Rob Bennet:
“My take is rooted in a belief that the cause of the recession/depression is the relentless promotion of Buy-and-Hold Investing for over 30 years.”
Ooooo, I’m sorry Rob, the correct answer we were looking for was “cheap credit.” We also would have accepted “misguided affordable housing initiatives.” Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:09 am
On a personal level, we’re getting mixed signals. The brother-in-law finally got a new job after almost a year unemployed. Father-in-law’s company can’t keep up with orders and has rehired a bunch of layoffs. The cousin’s wife got laid off from her waitressing job because many of the restaurants and bars in town went out of business.
Private industry seems to be picking up. State and local are making further cuts. There is a big chance I won’t be getting a raise next year, despite having escaped those cuts last year and the year before. They’re doing more furloughs and talking about cutting kindergarten to half-days. Federal government is doing ok, but state and local are lagging behind. Hopefully things will turn around.
As of the January meetings, economists thought we were on the path to recovery, though they were more focused on talking about health care than the economy. I hope that the government doesn’t go all Herbert Hoover and keeps channeling Keynes, because their spending does have real impacts.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:13 am
@5 Rob
My opinion on the recession is actually opposite of yours. To me, buy-and-hold is what keeps prices stable.
The housing market and the stock market are kept in check when the house/company’s interests and the owner/stockholders interests are aligned.
Fast forward to the last two decades where a jump in technology enabled access and communication into a group of investors. All of a sudden, you’ve got exponential growth in the amount of speculators that only cause chaos to the system, driven by their own greed and desires only for profit.
Before computers, you needed capital to speculate. You could take a $100k loan with no money down or trade on margin. People in the stock market or real estate wasn’t in it as a get-rich-quick scheme, but rather as a long term investor because the process took that much time.
In the 90’s, all you needed was a computer and internet access to trade on the stock market. Trades were executed within minutes, whereas a traditional broker took a hefty commission and possibly days to fulfill it.
Today, real estate can be bought and sold in days. There are plenty of speculator out there that “flip” houses: buy run-down houses, repair half-ass and put on a new paint job, and sell it at a profit. I think Detroit was auctioning cheap housing in an attempt to lure people back to the city. What happened? Only speculators looking to make a profit were able to purchase ready to live-in homes, driving away real families that would live in those homes because they don’t have the capital to compete.
Today, you can have a server, and a fiber optic connection to the stock market, and initiate trades at the micro-second to take advantage (and screw up the system in the process) of the fluctuations in the stock prices.
Like I said, this is just my opinion, and correlation does not always imply causation. This is my 2 cents on the cause of this recession.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:18 am
As many noted before me, I see this as a very personal question.
By most people’s standards, my wife and I have been lucky to avoid most of the troubled economy. However, we entered the downtown with a house and lifestyle we could support with 1 of our jobs, money in the bank, retirement planning in place, etc…
But, with that being said we, too, have lost out. Our house is worth slightly less than it was 2 years ago, we have not seen any pay increases, our company’s no longer match our 401k contributions, interest rates on liquid cash are below inflation, and we both face serious concerns about our job security.
It feels like we are still weathering the storm…
Wayne
February 1st, 2010 at 8:28 am
All I can say is that the hubby and I have educated ourselves over the last year and that everyone should look up the FEDERAL RESERVE. Who exactly are they? Do you know how much fiat money they are printing? I’d like to think I’m an optimist, but once you start learning certain things about how our monetary system works it can scare the heck out of you.
We’ve been incredibly lucky or blessed in that it seems that we have taken all the right steps financially so far, we’re young and will our mortgage paid off within a year after only 6 years.
Whatever you do, get of debt and start saving in something with true value…
February 1st, 2010 at 8:30 am
Well, just today my husband began his first full-time job since getting his master’s degree in May, so things are looking up, at least personally! He’s a landscape architect, which I think is a bit more connnected to how the country is doing economicaly. The work of landscape architects isn’t always a need but often times a want.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:33 am
I don’t think things are necessarily getting better or worse….they are CHANGING.
I lost my job of 14 years on Friday. I knew it was coming. Fortunately, this turns out to be more of an opportunity for me than a set back. I have been working part time on a home based business, and after three years, I have had the best January sales ever. I now have time to focus solely on growing my business, and I am taking the stance that I am not unemployed, I am now self employed!
People are changing the way they do business, they are changing their spending habits, they are more choosy about where and who their money goes to (which is part of why I believe my sales are up), they are changing the way they save and invest, they are much more cautious about credit and they are learning new life and survival skills.
The best thing is that people are finally realizing what is most important and necessary and are returning to their communities and families for support and are paying more attention to local business.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:36 am
It appears the economy is improving quite a bit. This year my husband and I are both receiving generous bonuses at work. Our bonus structures are unusual as his is paid in February, and mine in March.
Our behavoir has changed though due to the way the economy has been the last two years. Instead of us each going out and purchasing new automobiles, boats or other toys with those bonuses, we will put the funds into savings instead.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:42 am
DH and I have weathered things very well at our jobs. Our raises last year were about 0.75%, but our company didn’t lay anyone off (unless you count contractors that were allowed to expire). For the most part we haven’t been participating in the recession.
But we have taken some hits on our rental. The real estate sales market around here is pretty soft, but the rental market is worse. You can find renters, but the rent doesn’t cover costs. We have just held on and put money into it as needed. It is what it is and as long as we can tighten our belts and make the payments, that’s what we do.
We have gotten some great deals as we have seen this as an opportunity to buy stagnant inventory. We got new furniture and tools at great prices. It’s been hard to save with so many good deals on things we really want especially since our jobs are stable and our savings are doing well.
I know others will disagree, but I think part of the reason people are starting to be more optimistic is because Washington hasn’t gotten much done lately. No matter what the policies, businesses have a tendency to sit back and wait when things are in a state of flux until they know what the rules will be. Whether you agree or disagree with the healthcare bill it would have been a big game changer, so planning for the future with it passing was one thing, not passing was another, so you just sit back and wait.
I worry the most about inflation, specifically about my mom as her pension is only modest and not set to increase with inflation. If things take off I’m young enough that I have time for my income and home value to stabilize. But others in my family are in the opposite position.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:42 am
I agree with Pop (#7) - 20 years from now I’ll have nothing exciting to say about the “Great Recession” personally other than I was unemployed for 12 weeks after grad school and we lived on one income for a while.
In the past 14 months, I’ve increased my salary from a grad school stipend to a full-time job with benefits and over 2.5x pay. DH negotiated an 11% raise. We consolidated my remaining student loan balance at 1.75%. We saved in 401Ks, Roth IRAs, an account for our next house, and a CD ladder.
The only thing for us that went the way of the economy as a whole is the fact that our house is still 8% less than our mortgage (and down about 17% from the purchase price). Personal economy is the key.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:46 am
It seems to me that I hear people talking about the economy improving and leaving out some really important emphasis. My concern is that I mostly hear that unemployment is always a lagging indicator which in an academic sense is true; however, it seems that every week more than 475,00 people lose their jobs and/or appply for unemployment benefits.
I just cannot utter the words “economic improvement” when almost half a million more people are jobless every week. Also let us not forget all the under-employed people out there and the chronically unemployed people that stop being counted. My guess is that real unemployment number is somewhere between 15-18% and that is just horrible.
Unless you work for Goldman Sachs or another financial institution that is giving its employees lavish bonuses, I do not see how anybody can say with any amount of credibilty that the economy is improving.
Signed,
Hopeful, but Realistic
February 1st, 2010 at 8:47 am
My company is still doing very poorly, but since we are highly dependent on government spending and construction in Cali, well… it is what it is. But they recently brought back our health insurance and are hiring someone to take the place of 3 people that quit, so that’s good.
Of course, I’ll be quitting my job in June to move to new york. We’ll see how things are out there.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:55 am
Husband was let go over 13 months ago. Self-employed now and struggling to “start up. I’ve survived 2 major layoffs, reduced hours (32) and a 17% pay cut that affected everyone across the board.
Both hubby and I feel the economy is sluggish at best. There is an unspoken “fear factor” out there. Almost like a puppy that has had his nose smacked once too often. You want to believe that things are improving but just when you do, something comes along to trip you up again.
I feel inflation is just a breath away (food, energy)and while our standard of living is managable…the days of “easy money” are over.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:56 am
As a state employee in education, I feel that things are actually getting worse. The Governor has proposed additional furlough days to all state employees on top of what we’ve already had. No cost of living increase in over 2 years, employee contributions to benefits has increased about 15%, complete freeze on new or replacement hires, and major cuts to programs. Very few job opportunities out there even if I wanted to move.
My brother was laid off two months ago and reports that in his area (marketing) there are very few positions to apply for; my father has been laid off for 3 years (from HR work) and working a temp contract job under constant threat that he could be dropped; my mother has her own therapy practice and has had such a client reduction that she is barely paying office rent.
Strangely, my husband (an artist) is doing the same as last year. You’d think that would be a luxury expenditure and get cut from people’s budgets, but he seems to be doing alright.
From my perspective, I’m not seeing improvements yet.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:57 am
What’s your definition of “buy and hold?”?….I believe proper “buy and hold” strategies incorporate value investing, which is price conscious, dollar-cost-averaging, which buys more shares at lower prices
Thanks for your helpful feedback, Kent.
We are in 100 percent agreement that a Buy-and-Hold approach that incorporate a value investing element would be the best possible approach for investing in stocks. Where we differ is on the question of whether dollar-cost-averaging fits the bill.
I say that it does not. Stocks were insanely overpriced for the entire time-period from January 1996 through September 2008. Those who practiced Dollar-Cost-Averaging were buying some shares when stocks were selling at two times fair value and other shares when they were selling at three times fair value. The proper thing to do if you were seeking good long-term results was to avoid stocks altogether until prices returned to levels where the long-term value proposition for stocks was equal to or greater than the long-term value proposition for far safer asset classes (TIPS were paying 4 percent real at the top of the bubble; that’s a return five full percentage points above the likely long-term return for stocks at the prices that applied at that time).
This is why I say that Buy-and-Hold was the primary cause of the economic crisis. Stocks were overvalued by $12 trillion at the top of the bubble. That’s #12 trillion that has been taken out of the retirement portfolios of middle-class investors over the past 10 years. You cannot take $12 trillion from the middle-class and not expect an economic crisis. We live in a consumer society. When people’s retirement accounts are demolished, they become afraid to spend. It is going to take years or possibly decades to recover from a problem that would have been avoided had the “experts” been telling us all along that we need to take price into consideration when setting our stock allocations.
We had a good discussion of these questions at the Get Rich Slowly forum last week, Kent. You might want to check out that thread to learn more about the various arguments both pro and con re what I am saying here:
http://www.getrichslowly.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4882&sid=1118c8b61444d3cf91b22b04f205e7aa
Rob
February 1st, 2010 at 9:02 am
Still struggling here. Company is barely hanging on and clients just aren’t ready to pull the trigger on any spending or new contracts. We are trying everything in our power to hang on in hopes that 1 of the 20 deals on the table will come through.
I’m an optimist by nature, but feel less optimistic about 2010 than I did a month ago. Seems like it’s going to be a year of ups and downs.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:04 am
I thought it was getting better until I heard about a paper factory closing & 150 people loosing their jobs.
I’ve been lucky - I work for local govt so my job is stable. But health insurance went up a lot this year- office copays are so high now I try to consolidate doctor trips (and I do not want govt health care). We didn’t get pay increases and our MANDATORY retirement contribution went up because of the stock market (any ideas on how to get out of mandatory retirement withdrawals - has to be un-constitutional especially if they are investing it in the stock market). So I’m actually bringing home less then I was 2 years ago while my utilities have all gone up - I’ve cut corners by eating less but that’ll only go so far.
But I know 3 people who can’t find work at all so I know I’m lucky despite my grumbles.
There’s rumors the local packing plant is going to lay people off & I worry for those people & how it will affect the rest of us.
If it’s picking up for a box company that’s a good sign though. It means something has been ordered, needs to be boxed up & shipped. So maybe things are starting to move.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:09 am
We always have lived modestly so although we had a 12 percent decrease in pay last year we never had trouble paying our bills. However, there was no “fun extra money”. I have become very discouraged by people wanting to just walk away from so much and DO OVER when many of us cut back and acted responsible. I now ponder ads I see for “Just sign and drive away” or “buy with no payment until 2014″. Makes me wonder if people really learned anything. I think I am bitter.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:09 am
My opinion on the recession is actually opposite of yours. To me, buy-and-hold is what keeps prices stable.
Thanks, Steven, It makes me feel good when someone presents the opposite of the view that I hold because I feel that that takes some pressure off of my shoulders. If people get to hear both sides, I feel that the chance that they can figure out the realities is then much greater. My views are obviously minority views. I see your comments as providing a helpful balance.
If there are others with questions or comments about my view that the promotion of Buy-and-Hold was the primary cause of the economic crisis, I will do my best to offer brief responses where I think I can be helpful. However, I don’t want a discussion of my views on this question to come to dominant this thread, which has a somewhat different focus.
If there are community members here who would like a more in-depth discussion of the question of whether Buy-and-Hold caused the crisis or not, I hope you will consider asking J.D. to entertain a Guest Blog Entry from me on this topic. I would be thrilled to write one and to be able to participate in a full discussion of the question in which all points of view could be fairly and fully explained.
Rob
February 1st, 2010 at 9:09 am
@ Adam #22: I’m not sure I understand how one can say that “dollar-cost averaging (DCA)” does not allow for buying shares at lower prices. I’m quite open minded to look at evidence you might share against this common principle.
Perhaps I should have said, in my comment #14, that dollar-cost averaging allows for buying of shares at a range of prices, both high and low, over long periods of time, when prices are fluctuating, as compared to buying shares in a lump sum and holding them for a long period of time.
Furthermore, in a decade with so much volatility, which include long periods of falling prices, certainly DCA beats a lump-sum investment of say $12,000 purchased on 1/1/2000 compared to $100 invested every month for 10 years.
The problem with abstract concepts, such as “buy & hold” or “dollar-cost averaging,” is that anyone can cite evidence (and do it intelligently) either for or against it.
My primary point here is that people should define what they mean by terms when making an argument.
For anyone looking for a true cause of any recession, it’s not investment strategies, wall street, or politicians — it’s human behavior.
For any “evidence” one needs, simply read what philosophers have been saying about human behavior for more than 2500 years.
The environment changes but human behavior never does…
“There is no calamity greater than lavish desires. There is no greater guilt than discontent. And there is no greater disaster than greed.” Lau-tzu (604BC - 531BC)
February 1st, 2010 at 9:13 am
i work in the construction industry, and it is still really bad. there is work out there, but most people are bidding at or below their break even level. it is great for the tax payers, but not for the people i work with.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:18 am
I actually got a new job in September 08, as the markets were collapsing. It is safe for the next few years anyway.
What I find difficult is that my retirement savings have taken a big hit and though I will recover to some extent, I don’t think I will ever make that money up to the point that I will ever get to where I would have been. Unless there is little or no inflation (which doesn’t seem likely) I just won’t be able to afford as nice a retirement as I was planning. So for me, I feel like I am worse off.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:19 am
@ Kent #42:
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/dollar_cost.htm
I understand the logic of DCA, but I personally feel it hoses people out of well-earned money by taking a huge cut in broker fees. Even if you are on a low-cost broker like Scottrade, if you are investing $100/mo and paying $7 in commission, that’s a 7% loss off the bat that you keep repeating every month.
It also encourages less sophisticated “investors” to blindly pump money into the same stocks/mutual funds/index funds without regard to cost. Maybe a rational investor would do it differently, but DCA is oversimplified “investing.”
February 1st, 2010 at 9:22 am
After reading these stories I feel very blessed. If it wasn’t for the news reports and blogs such as this, I wouldn’t have even noticed the recession. The news reports have scared us a bit and we’ve cut back on spending unless we can get a good deal. We bought a vacation home because the price was cut in half due to a short sale. We also are having our current home completely remodeled because the labor and materials are cheap.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:28 am
I am an optimist because I have to be. I am completely disabled by doom and gloom; if I had a negative outlook on life I would never get out of bed. (This is why I don’t watch the news or discuss politics.)
Our personal economy is hanging in there or looking up a bit. At work our customers have finally burned through the inventory they’ve been living off of for the last year or so, and are starting to buy again. Everyone in the trenches got raises and bonuses although the company hacked costs to the bone last year. The bosses have been fairly realistic; they told us last year that ‘09 would be a turkey, and they’re telling us now that ‘10 looks better, though we’ll have to stay lean and mean.
Hubby’s work has done nothing but grow all the last 2 years, even though it’s a luxury industry. I guess wine is a pretty safe business; people drink whether things are good or bad.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:33 am
I’m not sure if it’s really getting better out there. My cousin has been looking for IT work down south for the past year and they want you to have all these certifications and pay you $10/hr.
I work at an academic medical center performing IT work and we are constantly growing. Every week I come in there’s some new project that comes along. In the end, all of the projects will help attract more clients to the medical center.
In the past two years, I only seen management take the axe. This was due to the overabundance of directors and vice presidents. People being paid six-figures to manage a few people.
There are many open positions throughout the hospital and we still received a cost-of-living increase in the past year.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:43 am
I’ve always heard that box sales and the stock market lead economic recoveries (or rather are leading indicators of an economic recovery). The stock market has recovered. It isn’t back to wear it was, but where it was was overinflated anyway. I think its fair to say with the recent correction most stocks are evenly valued.
However I think we have a false sense of recovery. Things will not be like they were for a long time. We were on a huge bubble, not just a housing bubble, but a credit bubble. A lot of luxury businesses and excess businesses (like extra restaurants and stores that the population really couldn’t support) have closed. Companies have reduced costs. In other words everything is more streamlined. When you don’t have access to unlimited, undocumented credit then you have excess. So our economy will be working under control (read steady or slightly improved growth) for a number of years. That sounds good, but it isn’t for those who don’t have jobs and those who may have been caught in the housing crunch. Things aren’t going to improve for a number of American and World citizens. But I think the tourniquet has been applied and the bleeding has stopped.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:49 am
My personal economy is stagnant due to being on disability (it could be much worse). I am in a pessimistic mood these days because unemployment is still very high in Oregon and I will need to have something going by the summer for me to survive when I get off disability. My business is slowing picking up, but not anywhere close to where it needs be for me to live on that alone.
Yes, I hear different stories for different people,. It seems those who’ve always done well wasn’t affected very much by the recession.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:51 am
I think “the economy” is picking up - you can see it in the numbers (and I still have a lot of friends selling advertising, which is a huge canary in the coalmine of the economy.)
But I don’t think jobs are going to pick up much. Employers have learned just how much productivity they can squeeze out of scared, indebted workers.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:55 am
@ Adam #45
DCA would not be a deal if you were paying $10 for a trade to buy $100, but that isn’t the philosophy of DCA. DCA as I understand it is intended to be applied to direct stock buying and other vehicles with no trade fees. JD had a guest post on that a couple months back that was very informative.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am
In Washington State & for that manner in the left coast, the bottom has not been hit. How can a family -or the larger USA family Borrow their way out of trouble? Basic Economics 101 rules from school are no where near being followed at this point. Batton down the hatches folks!
Signed: A resident of Washington where we have sunk 2 bridges to date & the Big Bad Wolfe blew one over some years ago (Google: Galloping Gertie) A new bridge just opened & thought to be insured, but due to Insurance Fraud was an Uninsured loss. Laws were changed - after the fact & we ended up paying for it twice to rebuild it!! History - A fun study
February 1st, 2010 at 10:03 am
Another thought: Are box sales up from folks decluttering and selling what they can to feed their families? ? ?
February 1st, 2010 at 10:08 am
My personal economy has been good, partly because I’ve been saving money and partly because I came into a lot of unexpected cash last year. With that I was able to fund my IRA at the bottom of the market. It’s still a few grand under what it was worth at the peak of the market even with the influx of cash.
I live in Michigan, where there are still people facing job loss and foreclosure. My own job is secure, but I am living frugally. I work for a non-profit; donations for Dec 08 vs Dec 09 were flat.
OTOH a friend of mine got laid off last month and she’s looking for a job. She’s not finding much.
Things might be looking up, or it might be a dead cat bounce. I’m waiting.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:24 am
The economy has definitely affected me personally. My home value decreased by 4.4% and I made $15,000 less last year than the previous year. A decent chunk of my income was dependent on overtime, and with the economy the way it’s been, no overtime was available. In addition, my company gave nobody raises last year, and the word is that this year there will be a raise freeze as well. It’s the main reason I’m currently looking for another job, but definitely not the only reason.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:31 am
We look at our personal economies when discussing the overall economy, and mine is much worse. I graduated from college in May (BA in math and French) and have still been unable to find a job. I have $200 to my name at the moment, which isn’t enough to pay this month’s rent, and going out is almost out of the question because a bus pass costs $2 one way. I’ve applied to over 600 jobs and have had only eight interviews. Freelancing my skills (writing, tutoring, etc.) has been a bust so far because no one wants to hire me for that. So now I find myself broke, unemployed, with no job leads whatsoever (and even if I did, it would cost $4 to go the interview and back), and stressed about every dollar, especially when my landlord finds out I can’t afford the rent this month.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:33 am
@#7 Pop
I didn’t think of it like that until your comment. I am currently not in a struggling position, but there many people who are, including my dad.
It has been so hard for him this past year being unemployed, and needing me to move in to help with the mortgage. Luckily, he recently found a job, right after I bought my house. Perfect timing.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:46 am
Well, let’s see, on the personal side I’ve never made more money investing than I did in 2009 and 2010 makes me hopeful.
We cannot hire enough software developers, we’ve hired over 100 in the last 3 months and are looking for more. I personally have closed 50% more business in the last 3 months than in all the previous year - 40% more than in 2008!
Looking at the quarterly report coming in
- We have a record number of companies reporting profits with a record number beat analyst expectations.
- GDP was WAY up, expanded at an annual rate of 5.7% in the fourth quarter!
- U.S. manufacturing activity grew for a sixth straight month in January to the strongest level since August 2004 (based on ISM index)!
- Consumer spending increased in Dec, its third straight monthly gain.
- Personal income increased more than expected in December.
- Friday it was reported that the economy grew at the fastest pace in six years in the final three months of 2009.
Do I think we’re turning the corner - absolutely!!
February 1st, 2010 at 10:52 am
Thanks for this great website!
My quick comment - The econonmy seems to be tied to the stock market indices….which is a flaw….EXAMPLE: Watch how gasoline prices go up and down with the indices….that bothers me….
I would like to see a separation between the 2 but I am not sure that is possible - major economic indicators are linked to the market it appears.
The one issue that bothers me the most….Wall Street rolls but yet hinges its future on the little guy you and me - Mr and Mrs. Consumer…(abotu 2/3 of spending is figured to be by the consumer…not corporations….yet, the little guy is always getting the crumbs….at least that is what I get from our MEDIA….
But I am intrinsically an optimist…:):):)
February 1st, 2010 at 10:52 am
We’re a bit of both — optimist and pessimist. On the household level, we’re fairly optimistic. We live in Elkhart, Indiana, but husband has had a steady job, and they just recently announced that they are going to reinstate 401(k) matching, which we take to be a good sign. So, we’ve been optimistic enough that we have had another child and bought a house recently.
On the more macro level, though, we’re being cautious, and somewhat pessimistic. When we decided it was time to stop renting, we bought a house with enough land to do some gardening, and hopefully some other homestead-y projects to help offset any future price increases (or, if prices don’t go up, we can hopefully get rich that much less slowly).
February 1st, 2010 at 10:53 am
I would fall into the category, “On solid ground and growing some, thank goodness.”
BUT, we have some money set aside to buy, buy, buy if the market crashes again. We doubled up on our target date mutual fund shares during the last crash and are doing way better now than in 2007…
My husband is a teacher and I have a solid office position, so we never worried much about our jobs. We hoped we made the right decision to throw money into our 401k and Roth IRA…so far so good.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:59 am
It seems to be an odd recession–
because many luxury items (which I define as very expensive and non-essential toys) have been selling like hotcakes all last year and still are. At Christmas these things were even “sold out” at many stores!
Stuff such as i-phones, blu-ray players & disks, big-screen TVs, netbooks, video game consoles, and e-readers. And I’m sure the expensive i-Pad which nobody even knows what it’s good for will also be sold out the instant it goes up for sale later this year.
Yet all I hear on the news is how “consumer spending is way down”. So what’s going on?
I think that many people who are not wealthy are nevertheless willing to spend large amounts on electronic toys. Because after all, these things are all far less expensive than buying homes, furniture, new cars, and expensive clothing. I believe this change represents a sea change in consumer behavior—people may have finally realized that they don’t really need those all other things.
It’s not that consumers have become anti-materialist, it’s just that they have added up the costs and decided that they can buy themselves a awful lot of toys if they don’t buy that suburban house with the huge lawn and mortgage.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:00 am
Although there are clear signs to indicate an improvement in the economy from my perspective (long overdue raise recently & some company expansions are again moving forward), I believe the bridge that has & is being built over the chasm of the recent depression was thrown up hastily & is dependent on so many global factors that it wouldn’t take much in this volatile environment to bring it crashing down on all our heads. I consider myself a pragmatist. As dicey as it all seems, I continue to live economically cautious. My spending remains greatly restricted & my savings continue to grow. I experience & hear more & more stories of companies &/or supervisors who have become genuine bullies & are creating hostile work environments in an effort to drive others out or cause them to snap & then fire them for insubordination. More people I talk to are having physical symptoms from all the stress & pressure. Charles Schulz thru Linus once said, “I love mankind, it’s people I can’t stand.” It is a sad, but true, commentary on our society. I wish I were closer to retirement than I am, because the rat race has gotten really nasty. It seems the nicer the person the more they’re persecuted.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:21 am
In my job search (downsized in 2008 and still looking) I’m finally seeing jobs posted in my field in Philly and NYC, but still nothing in towns smaller than that.
I’m also noticing that most of these jobs are contract and not FT. That used to be minimal in my field.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:22 am
Asking me about the economy as a whole doesn’t make much sense. I don’t participate in most of it, and so I really don’t know. What I’m inclined to do is just repeat whatever I’ve heard most recently, or pick a generally conservative answer.
I’d figure most people fall into this category — most of us don’t know how the economy’s going outside our own little part of the wold, so we’re just going to repeat whatever the news (or the GRS article that this comment’s attached to) has said recently.
But if you’re curious about my personal economics, I’m doing fine. I asked for a promotion and a raise and got the promotion and a 10% increase in pay recently, so I guess I can’t complain.
To answer your very specific questions:
How do you feel about the current economy?
On a macro level, I feel disinterested. Most of the world’s economy has little effect on me, and is affected little by me. Like the weather, I’m not particularly concerned with it except in my own part of the world.
Do you think we’ve finally hit bottom? Or are things still getting worse?
No? Maybe? How should I know? What’s the definition of “bottom”? The only input I have here is that I’m pretty sure housing prices, at least in central California, have a long way left to drop. What are the job prospects for UAW members in Michigan? I have no idea.
How has the recession affected you and your family?
It really hasn’t. Every year I’ve done better than the previous year. I’ve been doing just fine, and if I could block out news reports, I probably wouldn’t even think that we were in a recession.
What do you think it’ll take for things to get better?
Time heals all wounds.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:24 am
I think there are pockets of improvement, but in other areas we have not seen the bottom yet. So overall I’d stay it’s stagnant.
Personally, I’ve had some benefits cut at work, and a salary freeze has been in place for over a year. I was due for a review and raise in October but that’s been pushed to April. No bonuses this year for the first time.
It’s frustrating because I personally am making huge contributions to the company, but not seeing any reward. But the fear of the bad economy keeps me from complaining too much — I feel like I should be happy to have a job.
One upside for me personally is the fear of losing my job (if they close our office) prompted me to take my emergency fund seriously. I now have $20K socked away and am still adding to it.
I feel lucky that my quality of life has not been hugely affected (knock wood). But the bad economy takes a mental toll, because I am much more stressed about the future. It’s a constant worry.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:51 am
I think the economy will remain very stagnant for at least another year. I still see small businesses cutting costs in every way they can. I want to say that a lot of the recent growth has been from cut costs. It will be interesting to see how long companies will continue to place a magnified glass over every cost.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:58 am
@ Rob #41: You said:
“The proper thing to do if you were seeking good long-term results was to avoid stocks altogether until prices returned to levels where the long-term value proposition for stocks was equal to or greater than the long-term value proposition for far safer asset classes (TIPS were paying 4 percent real at the top of the bubble; that’s a return five full percentage points above the likely long-term return for stocks at the prices that applied at that time).”
I will not disagree on your theoretical points but you speak more to market timing and also have the benefit of hindsight. Also, I say that proper buy and hold is not limited to stocks (bonds and defensive sectors are included) and absolutely can (and should) include DCA strategies. Your approach works in theory (and in practice for roughly 1/3 of asset managers over long periods of time) but how many people, especially the readers of this particular blog site, either philosophically agree with “market timing” or have the time, energy, knowledge, and resources to time the market?
Buy and hold and DCA are reflective of prudent lifestyle choices, not the hyper-intentional motivation to “beat the market.”
Also, how can you say that buy and hold people caused the price bubble in stock, which then, as you suggest, caused the recession? When stock prices have climbed for a long period of time, it does not “cause” a price bubble. Stocks are inanimate objects. What causes a bubble is complacency and greed, which is not a function of the typical buy & hold and/or DCA crowd. I would argue that complacency yields to greed, which causes the buying of more stocks when prices are higher. I don’t think buy & hold people (i.e. Warren Buffett) fit this category. Would you be brave enough to state that Get Rich Slowly readers caused the bubble?
Also you said this: “You cannot take $12 trillion from the middle-class and not expect an economic crisis.” You still are confusing causation and correlation. A fall in stock prices does not directly cause economic crisis. Stock prices are a leading indicator of economic activity — they reflect expectations. If you know that the stock market is a “discounting mechanism,” you would not say that stock price declines cause economic crises. Read this page and argue that stocks cause economic crises: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_valuation
Above all, thanks for provoking thought…
Cheers…
Kent
February 1st, 2010 at 12:00 pm
After nearly 14 years of investing, my total portfolio is still down. Not only has it lost every gain it ever made, it’s down basis as well.
My condo has lost value too, although it’s difficult to say how much. Out of 120 units in our community, eight of them are in foreclosure, and it’s hard to compete with a bank selling at fire sale prices.
I lost my job last year and felt bitter about it, because although it was a layoff (they didn’t need my position), they wanted to save a buck and didn’t want to pay severance or unemployment benefits. So my boss turned mean and bullied me into quitting. I couldn’t have stood it any longer - my health was suffering. And although I could have hired a lawyer and easily won a constructive dismissal suit, all that information is available online and you can forget about ever getting another job again. So after three months with no job, I took a temp position and now make $35K a year instead of $65K.
I have a few things going for me: no kids, no health problems, no debt other than my mortgage, and that is only $45K. And strangely, even with the dramatic pay cut, I’m much happier at my new job than I was at the old one. When I was in the middle of it, I didn’t even realize how miserable it was making me. I was stressed all the time, got sick constantly, could never sleep more than three hours without waking up in a panic, and hated - literally HATED - going to work every day. Now I am starting to remember what it’s like to go to a job that not only doesn’t suck, but that I occasionally enjoy.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Would you be brave enough to state that Get Rich Slowly readers caused the bubble?
Yes, I would be so brave. I certainly do not believe that we did this intentionally. I don’t believe that The Stock Selling Industry intentionally promoted dangerous ideas either. I have studied this matter in great depth (I’ve been working it seven days a week for nearly eight years now). My understanding is that the people who built the Buy-and-Hold Model were doing a wonderful thing, trying to make investing analysis more objective and scientific and more focused on the long run. These people are heroes in my eyes (as are J.D. and all the people who help each other out in the comments section of this blog). Unfortunately, the people who built the model made a mistake.
The mistake is that they came to believe that the market is immediately efficient and it turns out that it is only gradually efficient. If the market is immediately efficient, Buy-and-Hold makes perfect sense. If the market is gradually efficient, Buy-and-Hold is just about the worst strategy imaginable. So we have been giving people bad investing advice not out of bad intent but because our first guess about how a fundamental point turned out to be wrong.
My aim is to get this mistake corrected and to get us all on a better path. I have spoken to numerous financial planners who have hinted to me that even people in the industry would love to see the mistake publicly acknowledged so that we could all get it behind us and move on to the exploration of far more effective strategies. The problem today is — it is career suicide for those in the field to acknowledge all the trouble that they have caused. People are afraid to speak out, and, the longer this goes on and the more financial damage is caused, the more afraid they become.
I am hoping that personal finance bloggers can work this out by uniting to take a position that: (1) we must get accurate information about what the academic research says about how markets work out to middle-class investors; and (2) we must do all that we can to assure that people understand that the root problem was a mistake made without bad intent and to assure that people on all “sides” (there really can only be one side when the matter on the table is learning how best to invest our retirement money) work together toward the realization of constructive and positive and life-affirming goals.
Above all, thanks for provoking thought…
That line made my day, Kent. I have seen so much defensiveness over these past eight years. That line tells me that perhaps the dark days are nearing an end and we are getting to a point where we will all want to work together to change the history of investing in a wonderful way for every single person concerned. You have cheered me, sir!
Rob
P.S.: I apologize for putting forward a long post on a question not of core concern to this thread. Kent presented an opportunity for us all to move forward re this important matter and I thought that I had best take advantage of it. J.D. has been involved in some of the earlier discussions and I believe that he will appreciate what I am trying to do here.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:46 pm
@Rob and Kent
I appreciate your thoughtful conversation, but I’m asking you to take it to the GRS forums if you want to continue it. As Rob knows, I don’t want this thread to lose its focus…
February 1st, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Will do, J.D.
Thank you.
Rob
February 1st, 2010 at 1:07 pm
All I can see is that all my bills have just gone up 10 to 20% - just received 4 notices in the mail informing me of the rises - but my salary has not increased at all in two years and is unlikely to increase again. So I’m sliding backwards.
February 1st, 2010 at 1:28 pm
@J.D. & Rob: Thanks again to you both for provoking thought, which often, for good or bad, also provokes writing, which can lead to further thought and writing!
Thought, like conversation, is fluid, which often leads to one subject evolving into another. This is why I like the comments here: They are quite organic in nature. J.D. plants the seed and branches grow in more than one direction. I’d better stop there (and in future comments) or I’ll venture into another subject!
“It is good to rub and polish our brain against that of others.” ~ Michel de Montaigne
Cheers to all…
Kent
February 1st, 2010 at 1:37 pm
I haven’t personally felt any discomfort other than not getting a raise this year. But we live comfortably so another couple thousand a year doesn’t mean much either way. Instead I’m looking at outside ways to increase my income or get more time off for the same pay (effectively increasing my hourly rate).
I think the state of the economy mostly depends on where you live or what industry you work in, I’ve had some clients having their best years ever in 2008-2009 and some just absolutely plummeting into the red.
That being said, I think there are still real problems with our country - national debt and consumerism being the 2 biggest - that could rear their heads again and make things worse.
February 1st, 2010 at 2:05 pm
GDP grew at a healthy 5.7% annual rate in the fourth quarter. Thats what matters, the actual economic growth. Individual perspectives of a handful of random people don’t add up to anything meaningful.
Individual perspectives don’t go very far. Personally I wouldn’t even know theres a recession going on. I haven’t lost my job and theres no significant outward signs of economic trouble in my part of town least that I’d really notice. The only real impact to me is that we didn’t get pay raises last year. But now my company is selling like gang busters. I don’t even know anyone who has lost their job in the past year. So my individual view has nothing to do with the real state of the economy.
February 1st, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Our company has hired 5 people in the past two months. The last 3 retail stores I was in had “Help Wanted” signs in the windows. I only know one person that has lost their job in the past 24 months, and she immediately found freelance work and has several promising leads.
On the other hand, I’m trying to figure out who is going to pay for all this “stimulus” debt we’re building up. I make a very good salary, and suddenly I don’t feel very “comfortable” when I contemplate how much I’m going to have to pay in taxes over the next decade to pay all this back.
February 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I think my response in the poll on the economy would be “Stagnant. Not growing, but at least not getting worse.” But replace the word Stagnant with the word Stable; which makes a very large difference.
I think the economy needs to sit stable where it is right now while businesses calm down and get over their jitters. I’d actually be more worried if the economy kept going up into the range where the bubble popped before, or if it kept jumping up and down for no apparent reason.
To use a movie analogy think of Kevin Costner’s “Robin Hood”. Our economy is Little John; big, powerful, full of potential but after a solid smackdown we’re thrashing about in the river thinking there is no bottom. All we need to do is calm down, get our feet on some solid footing, and realize that the water is only 4 ft deep.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:11 pm
My husband’s division of a large tech company is hiring 10 college graduates and other divisions are hiring college grads also. That makes us feel pretty good.
We’re trying to sell our house in a college town in Oregon so we’ll see how that goes.
I will say that hiring service people (roofers, painters, etc.) is a heck of a lot easier in this economy than it was when we were remodeling in 2006.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:25 pm
This question right now is highly dependent on which sector of the economy you are part of. I have a number of friends in software and they are certainly seeing orders increase and general stability after a near freeze in 2008. Doctor/nurse friends have seen almost no impact except for the fear of healthcare legislation. On the other side of it, construction is abysmal. Advertising is seeing some life after ridiculous concessions in 2009, but the marketing budgets have not returned yet. Real estate moves when the price is right, but income for most is down considerably. I think the finance people we know are more relieved and can see a future.
For us, we made some wise choices moving money out of the market in early 2007 and putting it back in last year. Some of our companies that we are invested in are doing really, really well. Returns in 2009 in the stock market were fantastic.
Small companies however are really struggling because of the lack of capital. There probably has never been a better time to buy a small company right now because most of the pain is over and the valuations are in the toilet.
Do I think we are out of the woods yet? No, there are still too many factors that haven’t been addressed. You can’t have a government burning through $1.5 trillion a year and not have consequences. Some people mentioned the cost of things going up, it’s more like the value of the dollar is going down and its starting to catch up with us. Until we have solutions to the manufacturing exodus and the deficits, anything turnaround will not be a permanent one. Also, unemployment is running out for millions of Americans and that will have a dampening effect if we don’t see job growth by mid year. Having said that, people made millions in the Depression and there are tons of areas right now we’re there is massive demand for the right product/service. Wii’s, iPods, UFC, etc. are just some of them.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:26 pm
I worked in a greenhouse last year. It was a very punishing year for that industry. We only grew 1/3 of what we did the previous year and still threw half of it out.
As far as the economy at this juncture is concern, I have made an observation, with the following caveat: This is really my first recession, so this may be an issue common to all recessions and I don’t know about it.
The economy is struggling because consumer spending is still low and that accounts for 40% of the GDP. But while job losses continue, people are worried about spending. So the job market needs to stabilize and regrow before the economy as a whole will improve. However, the job market is a reflection of companies outlook on the economy, so many places will not be increasing jobs until the economy improves. A classic chicken and egg problem.
@Kerensky97: The problem with an economy that isn’t growing is that the population (and, therefore, workforce) is. If the economy doesn’t keep pace with that, it means serious problems. The so-called “Lost Decade” in Japan is an example of that. It took the better part of a decade for Japan to grow out of it’s recession and left a whole generation with limited or no work experience.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:27 pm
I’m glad you are positive about it. I think that helps. I think we’re on the road to a recovery but I worry that we’re going to have another wave of foreclosures. We’ll see I guess…
February 1st, 2010 at 3:45 pm
I also would have voted, or may have voted and have forgotten, “stagnant.”
Things do seem to have stopped getting worse. It seems like many businesses have shut down and lots of people were losing their jobs. That seems to have leveled off. Sadly, I don’t think this “new normal” is anything very good. If you look at the U6 rate, unemployment is about 18% or so. Like my MBA graduate hubby, who worked at a seasonal gig for three months and is now registered with half a dozen temp agencies. He did inventory one day last week for about sixty bucks. Does that count as “employed?”
Personally, we’ve adjusted to the “new normal.” Strict budgets, zero debt, very little consumer consumption and save save save save. For what, we don’t know, but just put as much money away as humanly possible. We’re up to 20% of my take-home pay.
February 1st, 2010 at 4:24 pm
I think that Wall Street’s due for another fairly significant drop over the next year or so… more of a hunch than anything, but continuing unemployment and real estate concerns (many ARMs and interest only’s still out there due for adjusting, and rates can’t go anywhere but up from here) are going to play a part. I guess that makes me pessimistic about the big picture.
However, on a personal level, things are good. We just bought a home with 20% down, and have a mortgage payment (incluing PITI) that equals 23% of my monthly income. It’s a fixer - we have a laundry list of issues both minor and major - but despite wanting to fix it all now, we know we will be able to do a lot of the work ourselves and cash flow the rest over time. We can feed and clothe our children, find inexpensive ways to entertain ourselves, and don’t really need for much else.
Overall, I’m happy.
February 1st, 2010 at 4:58 pm
I think the bottom is here, and it looks pretty abysmal for the 15+ million unemployed–many of which haven’t been able to find work for more than a year, and have not much left to live on. It will take a long, long time to put people back to work. With so much misery out there, it’s hard to be optimistic.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:22 pm
The economy has been rough and there are many positive outcomes because of that:
1. Divorce rates have dropped
2. Myths on home ownership has been busted
3. I hope saving and investing has taken a priority
4. Entrepreneurship, creativity and productivity has increased
5. Folks are giving a thought to technical skills for a career
I can vouch that in IT projects have picked up and for a talented person willing to relocate jobs are aplenty.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:12 pm
One question: what does it matter what the economy is doing?
Does it really change what you are doing and how you lead your life? I know for me, it does not.
Economy will do what it is doing. The best thing that everybody can do is do their best. I have been trying grasp this concept of why people are so concerned about where the economy is going as if they were able to do anything about it.
I mean, really? Be concerned about your own economy, the economy you can do something about.
Best,
Tomas
February 1st, 2010 at 8:12 pm
The economy is improving with respect to the fact that its not the train wreck it was six months ago.
I think we’ve bottomed out, but I don’t think were on our way back up yet.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Tomas @ 88 - while you make an excellent point about personal economy and more subtly about ones perspective regardless of outside circumstances we do have to be careful not to stick our head in the sand. A wise investor evaluates not only the companies he invests in but the economic climate they are functioning in and its potential impact on their investment. It is important to pay attention to the big picture in order to wisely grow your wealth.
February 1st, 2010 at 8:29 pm
@88 (Tomas Stonkus)
My last job was at a wholesale nursery (similar to that of the business of the author’s friend Rob). The recession decimated the business. I was lucky to survive the lay-offs that 2/3 of my coworkers received, but still got my hours cut.
At the end of the growing season, I left and haven’t found anything since.
So yes, the economy-at-large has personally affected me. I have had friends who have been laid off, friends who have had their hours cut, and a friend who’s contractually obligated raise was put on hold due to decreased sales at their companies.
It’s easy to picture the economy as some “thing” that doesn’t actually have any affect on you, but if you work, the economy affects you.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Federal layoffs have just begun. As Obama begins to pay for the war on the books- he is shifting money from homeland forts. It is quite a shock to have so many get “you can retire any day now” notices!
When the layoffs happen in earnest- next come the teachers…it is coming soon as well.
I am thinking that I thought the worst was over- but if Obama is serious about getting down the deficit…many more shallow days are ahead.
Personally, I am ahead in the market and considering getting out - again.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:02 pm
I feel it has leveled off. I just wrote about how this relates to my industry on my blog. I am an insurance broker for companies across the country.
The insurance companies seemed to be bracing for the worst for the past 6 months or so. I delivered several increases that ranged from 20% to 60%. My colleagues and I had never seen these kinds of increases in the past. I believe this was mostly because of the threat of a public option. Now the trend increases still look at the economy (they always have) but I believe more so in the past 6 months than ever before. Our industry has been dynamic to say the least. I presented a medical insurance rate pass (0% increase… broker negotiated of course) and a non-negotiable 60% increase all in the same week! My prediction is that we are stagnant and medical insurance increases will level off this year and go back to trend of 10-14% (as it was prior to the near financial collapse). http://www.melissaserenity.com
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:06 am
Financially, at a personal level, things have never been better. I made 20% more in 2009 than my previous best-ever year. I have contributed the entire eligible amount into my 401(k) for the past 12 years, and have about $50k in savings. My house is 8 yrs from being paid off, and the mortgage is the only debt I have.
I work in utilities, so the economic cycle really doesn’t impact things at work. We run lean all the time, so there is no need for layoffs when the economy goes south. The company is still happily paying for luxuries like travel - both for training and to attend industry trade conferences.
However I am NOT an optimist: I know that MOST working-class people are in nowhere near the shape I am in financially. Many are hanging on to a semblance of middle-class living by their finger-tips - just a step away from living in their car.
I am with Kevin (comment #23), having witnessed my equally well-paid co-workers dive deep into debt - buying massive houses, boats, motorcycles, and RVs. Some of them are now living in their parents’ basement among their boxes of stuff.
I also see no reason for anyone else to be optimistic (perhaps Prozac might help me there). The government is massively intervening in the economy to prop up jobs and lending, yet we are still losing 400,000 jobs every single month! We have just had 2 of the big 3 automakers go bankrupt, and the gov’t took over AIG, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. How often has that happened?
And while some in the optimist camp might feel that the bad news “seems” to be over with, to me it “seems” that the government is hiding several epic financial failures by using taxpayer bailouts - and in the process, endangering the finances the entire nation (that’s all of us, brothers and sisters).
I cannot envision any organic (i.e. non subsidized) growth in the economy on the horizon. There are too many empty houses for a housing boom, and we don’t need to buy any more junk from China. Please show me where 10 million unemployed are going to get jobs again. Hint: Probably not in Detroit or steel mills.
I would really love to be an optimist, but I cannot because I am too much of a *realist*.
February 2nd, 2010 at 5:57 am
I work Retail in Michigan and this year people were buying much more than last year . We also had no layoffs this year after the Holidays as compared to a 35 % reduction last year.Some areas are picking up, retail is one of them and other areas are leveling offand probably won’t start to climb for another 6 months to a year.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:21 am
Like Idah, I’m doing well personally but am pessimistic that the kind of economy we’ve had is unlikely to rebound. We definitely don’t need more junk from China. We have to transition from a consumer society to a producer/service society. We do have a lot of service sector jobs, but given the aging boomer population we need more people in all kinds of health care jobs. For example, more seniors will not be able to afford Assisted Living and so the need for home health aides will increase. We have an aging infrastructure, particularly in the Northeast and in California. That is a lot of construction jobs. So I’m in favor of the stimulus money even though I have to admit that some of the projects are low priority. I am guardedly optimistic that we can turn our economy around. We just can’t expect to regain the economy that we had. China is a huge competitor of ours. For years we as a society have been investing in trinkets, clothing and electronics from China, Disneyland, wars and a military that has bases or men in 160 countries. There is still plenty of money in this country. When we start to invest in our infrastructure, our children, our elderly, the schools etc. we will turn our economy around.
February 2nd, 2010 at 3:45 pm
The Creative Arts seem to be the Canary in the Mine Shaft, so to speak. Art jobs are the first to go in any recession no matter how minor, and are the very last to spring back when the economy begins to heal.
So far, art jobs are still hard to find, and thousands of artists and designers will scramble for one job. Art sales as a whole have been down. There are tiny little blips of rebound here and there, but I think it’ll be a few more years before the economy really starts the upward haul. Right now, it’s sluggish, with little ups and little downs.
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:19 pm
I love the conversational tone in this post. You don’t post these all the time. I love them when you do. Keep em coming, same as always.
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:20 pm
economy is fine if you are fine. we were prepared for the down turn, so we are fine. we are still buying in this economy, having bought a new car, closing on a new house, and buying crap to fill that house. how the economy is doing is directly correlated to how you feel you are doing.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:52 am
The ecomony seems to have stabilised here in Iowa. Its bad, unempolyment is roughly 6% statewide, but railroad traffic seems to have picked up a little bit in the last few months. This is historicly the slow time of the year for railroads in the U.S. and we hope there will not be a big dip in carloadings this winter. Cold and snow this winter have kept coal traffic up and bulk commodities ie. grain/ethonal are steady. Seems to be guarded optomisim in the rail industry, so much so that Warren Buffet bought BNSF Railway! Long term I think my industry will do well. Personaly I,m realy looking into cutting my energy imputs/bills. Wind, Solar and energy saving home emprovements are at the top of my list of investments. I believe that the price of energy is going to rise dramaticly in the next ten years and that will realy shake this economy unless we are prepared for it.