Ask the Readers: How Do You Figure the Calculus of Kids?
Published on - March 12th, 2010 (by J.D. Roth) I keep intending to retain “ask the readers” as a regular Friday feature — and I keep failing. You folks send me tons of great questions, and I’d love to share more of them. This week, for example, Lisa wrote with the following.
“Having kids has made spending choices much more emotional and complex,” she says. “You can’t always calculate a return on investment.” Here’s her predicament:
My husband and I are looking to purchase a home in our new city, but we’re having trouble deciding where our values, finances, and priorities intersect.
We have young children, one who will start public school this year. We’re considering buying a home in a modest neighborhood so we could have a house/car replacement fund available, rather than taking all of the down payment money and putting it in a “better” house. The schools in the neighborhood are solid, but not the best in the district. If we buy in this smaller, less fancy area, we can choose a 15-year mortgage, minimize our overall house expenses, and have more money for all of life’s priorities. But, it feels like we’re “cheaping out” on the kids.
To compound our “analysis paralysis”, we lost a fair amount of equity when we had to sell our house to transfer out of state, so we’re feeling less than enamored with the idea of putting money that is currently liquid into a building that isn’t guaranteed to hold its value, much less appreciate. (We have no car/consumer debt, and we have a comfortable emergency fund.)
I think our family might feel more comfortable in a more modest neighborhood with more coupon-clipping parents and kids who don’t have the latest and greatest, but I also want my children to have a great education. Have other parents faced this battle, doing what’s best for the overall budget vs. doing what’s expected for our kids? We’d love to hear how it worked out for you.
I love questions like this. They’re a clear demonstration that personal finance isn’t only about the numbers; it involves a complex calculus of math, emotions, and dreams.
Most of the time, I can offer suggestions when people ask these sorts of questions. But when it comes to kids, I’m at a loss. Kris and I have chosen to remain childfree, and as a result, I’ve never had to wrestle with these sorts of sticky issues.
From a non-parent perspective, I admit that the obsession over which school a kid will attend seems…well, I don’t know how to put it in words that won’t make people angry. But I’ve watched friends and family go through mental and financial gyrations to get their kids into the right pre-schools, which boggles my mind. I’m a firm believer that education is more about the child than it is about the school. If a kid has been taught to love and value learning, she can thrive almost anywhere.
In other words, I’d urge Lisa to make her decision based on finances and not the school district. This may mean she needs to take a more active role in fostering her children’s intellectual curiosity, but that’s a good thing all the way around. But what do I know? As I say, I don’t have kids, and I don’t know what it’s like to actually face this decision. It’s one thing to say it and another to live it.
So, what do you parents say? How do you judge the trade-off between expenses and education? Is it worth paying more to live in a good school district? How does one make this sort of decision?
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This is a tough one. We picked a home and a neighborhood that we loved as a couple. If we have kids, something we ae working on, most likely we will have to send our kids to private school or try to get them into a public magnet school since our local schools are not good (mostly an ESOL issue).
My best friend, who lives in another state, moved her children out of one private school, in a fancy area, to another private school, in a not so fancy area, because she was disturbed that her oldest child, who was like 6 at the time, was complaining that they were poor. Now they are thinking of moving and she is looking for an area with good public schools and looking forward to not paying $15,000 a year for private school for her two girls.
I think the school issues is more than just what level of education will the kids receive, it is also about the peer group, economic status, crime issues, college prep., parental participation, sports, arts, etc.
If you buy up, in a fancy area, most families will feel pressure to keep up with Joneses. My parents did that, they bought a small home in an expensive area, on the water no less, and my brother and I went to very good public schools with rich kids. My parents were very well educated but did not earn a whole heck of a lot as college professors and they spent a lot on experiences not things (we spent our summers together as a family in another state, also a fancy resort area but we lived in a cabin). I never had the right clothes, my parents never had the right cars, and I never wanted to invite other kids over to my house. So school was tough for me, I didn’t fit in, felt like and outsider, hated my parents at certain times, etc. But I got a great education and now, very much, respect the choices my parents made.
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I am a huge proponent of education and gung-ho for quality education – and VERY annoyed that public education varies so much across districts. I can’t advise you on the right decision, but here’s some things to think about:
1. Can you do some research to identify where the biggest quality differences lie between districts? In particular, are you likely to notice this in elementary school or is it more of a high school issue (AP classes, college placement, etc.)? If your kids are young, you may well move by the time they are in high school, when the budget may allow it easier.
2. Are property taxes higher in fancy district? That may add even more costs. On the other hand, houses there may hold value better, but again it’s something to research.
3. For both areas, have you talked to any residents (or at least read local papers / newsletters, found any online forums) – do you know if people in the area share your key values – e.g., education, frugality, community service? This is going to be the pool from which your kids make friends.
4. Can you specify what you will be giving up for the larger house, in terms of life’s priorities? Would they be at a good school with no money to do any of the activities that make it better? Will you be living so close to the edge that every tiny purchase needs to be scrutinized and life is highly stressed all the time? Or is it losing the triple-premium cable package with 28 sports channels?
5. Does living in one area give you more time with them than the other, because of commutes, conveniences, etc.?
Having bought a house when we moved cities, I would actually recommend renting a house in either location and buying after you know the areas better. I am sure there’s a ton of other questions to consider besides those above.
Good luck!
Jenn
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Well, I can tell you a little about our decisions, though we’re no more settled. We left a house in another state and we’re currently trying to rent it. In the meantime, we’re renting a home in our new state. The school district here doesn’t score very well; our oldest son is going to kindergarten there.
So I agree with JD on this; I don’t rely on the school to teach my son to learn. I believe that having a child who loves learning will be the key rather than how good a school he goes to. I won’t be able to afford private schools for my kids, much as I’d love to give them any advantage. But we try to help him learn as much as possible at home.
So how do we do it? Well, my wife takes the kids to the library about once a week, and they pick out books about whatever they’re curious about. Every night, they get dedicated time with me to read stories and answer questions. What books come home? Well, they can pick whatever they want, and I’m surprised by the subjects that come home. We read about Jupiter, simple machines, Leonardo da Vinci, George Washington, spiders; anything the kids are curious about. I try to answer any question they ask.
For reference, our kids are 5, 4, 2, and 3 months; but they’ve got to be the most curious, inquisitive kids you’ll meet =).
Short answer: I agree, don’t fuss so much about the school. Give the kids financial stability, which helps with marriage stability, which gives them a home where it’s safe to ask questions and where they feel secure and comfortable.
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Private school, cheaper house. Your kids will even be better off.
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Though I have kids (4 to be exact!), I don’t really have to wrestle with this because we chose to homeschool. The only thing we need to be concerned with regarding school districts and home purchasing is the impact that a school district has on the resale price of the home.
To answer the reader’s question, though, I’d just offer that I’ve read and heard that parental involvement is a much higher predictor of educational success than a specific school is. So, no matter which house you choose, you can, in large part, control how well your children are educated.
J.D., I totally agree that obsessing over preschool is quite unnecessary. None of my children did any sort of preschool and they’ve still all been doing 1st grade math and learning to read halfway through their kindergarten year.
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When my husband and I bought our home, we considered school systems as part of the equation, but it honestly wasn’t the biggest factor for us. As luck would have it, we ended up in a relatively tiny home in an upscale town with one of the best school districts in our state.
Now, 8 years later, I am thanking my lucky stars that we went with that decision, rather than buying perhaps a larger home in a lesser district. As it turns out, our son is in the process of being diagnosed with special needs. The difference between our experiences working with our school district and the experiences of other mothers I speak to on my support boards is enormous. Our school comes to *us* and offers us all sorts of services that we’ve never even considered asking for. It is such a load off our shoulders to not have to fight tooth and nail just to get the school to accommodate our child’s needs. Given the added costs that we have for therapies, doctor’s visits, etc, we never would have been able to afford private school on top of a mortgage.
Private schools in our area run about $12-15K per year. Because our home is so modest, we pay much less than that in taxes. Additionally, starter homes in our town are highly desirable, so the value of our house has never dropped. As for being around the “haves”, it’s really not that big a deal. Granted, I was living in NYC for a long time, so I’ve had plenty of experience having nothing compared to my neighbors, but I’ve found that people around here respect you when you are confident in your own path. And if you’re susceptible to feeling jealous of your neighbors’ possessions, you aren’t going to avoid it just by living in a cheaper town. There’s plenty of people in those towns that also have bigger cars, more expensive clothes, etc.
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I grew up lower-middle-class (my husband and many friends would say poor, but they are wrong) at an economically-mixed school. We didn’t have the latest clothes and sometimes didn’t pay the phone bill, but I never felt poor. My husband and many of my friends grew up upper-middle-class to rich (the latter in my opinion) and attended schools in fancy areas. They grew up feeling poor because they didn’t have as much as those around them. One of my friends was a scholarship student at a private school. She constantly talked about how poor she was growing up and I took her at her word until I visited her childhood home, which was clearly middle class and way above my standard of living as a child. After this experience I always said I’d want to send my child to somewhere where she is in the middlish or top half of the income distribution. And as the child of an academic living on one income, that means not the top schools in the area.
But that was before I had a kid. Now I see why parents want the best education for their kid and unfortunately that means often schools in richer areas. My daughter is only 2 so no decisions yet but I’m already feeling torn.
If it makes you feel any better, I attended a middling mixed-income public school and now have a PhD from a very well-regarded university. However, I did grow up in Canada and from what I understand the variation in school quality in the States is much higher.
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I’m not coming from a US perspective, and I’m aware that the school system in the UK is different in some ways, so you may wish to bear that in mind when reading the following…
Choosing a school is a big decision, and where you live will have an impact on your choices. However, I am a firm believer that how well your kids actually do in life depends on them, how you bring them up, as well as how they are taught at school.
That’s not to say that a bright kid will do as well in a failing school as in a great school – if the teachers are demotivated and the lessons are disrupted then it will affect them. But they will probably do just as well in a “solid” school as a great school.
I don’t know what the needs of your kids are – you do (or may do, you don’t say how old they are). Think about this. Are they really bright? Average? Do you have a kid with potential dyslexia or other special needs? Different schools cater for these needs differently. In my home town, there are a number of good to excellent schools, but given the choice, I would choose different ones depending on the answers to those questions – some schools are academic, some are more rounded, some have fantastic provision for special needs. Very few, if any, shine across the board. Parents will know this sort of thing – talk to them.
Lastly, whatever you decide, don’t beat yourself up about it. You clearly care deeply about your kids, or you wouldn’t be agonising over this. To me, it sounds like whichever way you jump, your kids will grow up in a loving, secure home, with parents who value their education and wellbeing. And that’s what will really matter in the end.
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We are just about to move from a very expensive area with great schools to a good area with good schools.
I am of the opinion that what makes a school better is the children and what make the children better pupils is parents that actually care about their children’s education. If the neighborhood is made up of families that value education you can’t go wrong. We are in the UK but I don’t think things are much different in the US.
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As a disclaimer, I don’t have kids. In fact, I’m fairly recently married and young. I’m probably not qualified to tell you what to do, however, this is how I feel and how I hope I will act when my family gets to this crossroad.
When I was young (3 or 4) my parents moved from Indiana to Maryland. I didn’t know it at the time but they moved to a school district they felt was a good fit for us. They chose it because even though it wasn’t the ‘best’ (ie the district with the most money), it was a district that was diverse and where the teachers seemed to genuinely care about each student. Being diverse also meant that the lines between well off and not so well off were blurred so there was less competition to have the latest and greatest. The district didn’t have the best test scores or the best sports teams. It wasn’t the biggest by a long shot. Actually while I was in high school, we were the smallest in the county.
Then we moved to a different neighborhood when I was 9 or so. We were still in the same district for middle and high school but we would have changed elementary schools. This time my parents kept us in the same elementary school we started in. This was probably for two reasons: One, we re already there and had friends and routines and it was the middle of the school year; and two the other school did not have the same quality of teacher. I don’t know if they were worse or not but that is the impression I get from my reflections.
Education should never have become about money or class. For your kids choose a place where the teachers genuinely care about each of there students. Choose a place where they can meet a variety of people from all ends of the spectrum not just rich kids or poor kids, black kids or white kids, smart kids or dumb kids. Choose a place where the parents seem to value those things too. Choose a place where the parents aren’t so concerned about looking right that they miss out on what their kids need and want.
This is much more than a financial decision. But it’s also not an end of the world decision. Your children are resilient. They will thrive if you are thriving. You have the most influence over their lives and their attitudes about life. If you are stressing out about whether or not they will be adequately prepared, they’ll pick up on that and maybe start to doubt that they can be prepared. If you make your decision and encourage their “intellectual curiousity”, as JD put it, regardless of what school system the go through they will be ready for life. My personal belief is that you have the ability to be the best parent for your child when you stop worrying about what other parents think is the best for your child.
Feel free to check back in 5-10 years when I, hopefully, have my own children to see if I’m living everything I mentioned so far. Good luck!
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My wife and I were faced with a somewhat similar dilemma this fall after a rough start (chronically ill teacher, lots of subs, no continuity) to 1st grade for our daughter. We can afford private school, but it would have put a real strain on our budget.
We opted not to pursue the private school route because it would hamstring us financially–we wouldn’t be able to set aside enough for retirement or emergency fund or our daughter’s 529 fund (etc etc) and we thought that could have serious negative ramifications for our entire family–what if the car breaks down, what if one of us gets sick, and so forth.
Furthermore, I’m lucky enough to get a sabbatical through work, and paying for private school would put our plans (6-8 weeks in Europe in 2011) on ice. If we went to private school, our vacation plans for the next 20 years would be severely strained and vacations are an educational opportunity as great as any school setting in my opinion.
So what we’ve chosen to do is to pursue the “gifted” options available through our school district; perhaps that’s a route you could investigate during your research. It might provide a balance between financial security and your kids education.
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As a public school teacher (who has also taught in private and Catholic).
1) look at the high school more than the elementary. Graduation acceptance rate to a four year university is the key.
2) decide if YOU are willing to put in the time and effort it takes to overcompensate for a low preforming school.
3) If you are not- or think your children will not be compliant- go for the BEST school district you can find and buy a small house there.
I cannot tell you the difference in education between a medium and great school district in all areas- but normally it is HUGE!!!!!
4) All private/Catholic schools are not the same – BTDT.
Our story…
We choose a great house in a medium high school district. We put in tons of hours at the school. Our gifted son went to West Point and his friends went to state colleges and are working on masters.
Our daughter did not “land” the same classes since she was “just” a normal above average IQ. She dropped out in two years- most of her friends did the same thing. She simply did not have the background or stamina to compete. She is returning to college this year (at 28).
We put in the same amount of time with each child.(My husband took a job at the school as a teacher.) They were one year apart and both ran Cross Country (a magnet for smart kids).
Schools are changing quickly to -those who have and those who do not have. The bells and whistles of smart boards do not compare to quality teachers who use quality textbooks(or REAL books) to teach. I taught nine novels in sixth grade in my last school. My current class has read one through Language Arts!
My grandson will be homeschooled by me and his mom. We are saving to send him to the best high school we can find and afford in our area. Forget saving for college!
JD, it should make a difference to you. Housing will long be determined by schools- since that is where most of your taxes go. You may be able to sell your house in a bad school area if it is a historic one- but it will sell for more if it is in a good school area.
BTW- I worked for a publishing company for 3 years and saw 700 schools. The difference in education in the US is astounding. The strangest thing is that parents all claim their children’s school is fine- even the failing ones. Go figure.
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If both neighborhoods are in the same district, talk to the school district and ask which school they’d go to.
A few years ago, our kids were attending a great elementary school in the district they were in. The district was split up over 3 or 4 small towns, each with several neighborhoods. The way it was explained to me, the taxes for schools get split up in PA and the school closest to where the tax was collected gets most of that money, that meant some schools in the district had money for teacher salaries and supplies and some didn’t – which plays a huge role in the education of the student body as a whole.
The school district received complaints from some of the poorer neighborhoods, that it was unfair their kids weren’t getting the same education as students in the same district but who lived in neighborhoods whose schools had larger budgets because the families were paying higher property taxes (which go towards the school taxes here). The school district agreed, and decided to bus students all around within the district, to put kids from every neighborhood and town into every one of their schools (no, I don’t know why they didn’t decide just to split the budgets up evenly or by head count). As a result, even though we’d chosen to live in an area with the best schools in the district, once our kids hit 5th grade (middle school in that district), they were bussed to a school that could not provide history or science text books due to budgetary concerns. If we’d known it was going to happen when we moved, we could have lived in a place that was less of a burden on our wallets.
Talk to your school district, ask them where your kids will be attending school based on the addresses and grades your kids are in. This is information your Realtor should have, but may not be up to date on and may save you some money while putting your kids in a great school.
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I have to agree with poster # 2 that the first thing to do is identify what the differences are between the two school districts. The top rated one could have top of the line computer labs and sports facilities, which may not be important to you, or it could be top rated due to parental involvement, special services, or other factors which are important to you.
My husband and I went with the small house, great district route, mainly because this is where I grew up. I do sometimes wish we had more money available to travel and send the kids to various enrichment opportunities, but sometimes well off towns have bigger budgets for free activities to take advantage off (top notch libraries with many children’s programs, near free rec sports programs, etc.)
It can be annoying when my kids complain of being “poor” because some of their friends ski every weekend in the winter and go to various islands for spring break, but along with things we are doing now, I plan on taking the kids on some service trips when they get older to see what poor really means.
School is a big part of the life of a town, but it is not the only part.
Good luck with the decision!
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I’m with J.D. on this. I’m not sure that moving to a richer neighborhood translates into “better” schools, anyway. It could just mean that the school has a more state-of-the-art football stadium.
Parents have to take an active role in keeping their kids challenged and fostering a love of learning in them, regardless of which school they go to. Too many people shovel this responsibility onto the schools, and it is no substitute for parents who care and stay on top of things.
At the school I went to, the only thing anyone seemed to care about was sports. The school hired coaches, not teachers, and then stuck them in front of classrooms a couple times a day, where they taught straight out of the textbook through rote memorization. It was dull and unchallenging. I always thought there was no reason for me to even go to class, since I could easily read the book and write down the answers to the questions at the end of the chapter myself in less time. So much of my time during the school day was an utter waste.
The problem with this approach is that it fosters laziness. After a while, you get to the point where you don’t even want to be challenged or work on anything interactive that resembles true problem-solving. Just get your mindless assignment done and hand it in. Students disengage mentally because it is the only way they can cope with the sheer, mind-numbing boredom of it.
I think it is even worse for kids in school today, because the bureaucracy is bigger – kids are taught to take tests. But the truth is, science and math are actually interesting! You can’t count on schools to teach students to care, though. The system is too screwed up at this point. That is going to have to come from the parents.
Buy the less expensive house, and spend the money you have left over taking your kids to places where they can learn and experience new things. Buy them books and educational computer games. Get them involved in activities outside of school, where they can interact with people of all ages. Teach them about all the different kinds of jobs and careers there are for people. If they like building and fixing things, for example, they are already predisposed to find math and mechanical principles interesting. If your kid likes re-wiring your old electronics stuff after it breaks, certainly he or she will find it interesting to learn how electricity actually works. But you have to take that initiative yourself – once in a while you may find a great schoolteacher who steps up to the plate and cares, but don’t count on it.
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I don’t have kids yet (first on the way!), but I would like to point out that I am aware that in many areas you can send your child to a school that is not the one they are ‘supposed’ to go to in the district. Usually there are surcharges associated with this and limits on the number of kids allowed to do this, but I would look into it before making a decision.
Oh also, the reader said the schools were good but just not the best. In that case, I would not even care. The only way I would care is if I were sending my child to a school in a very depressed area with a bad reputation and that I worried they might be unsafe.
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I agree with JD. Do what makes the most financial sense for you. Imagine how stressed out you might be if you max out financially, particularly if you realized that it didn’t have to be that way.
Schools were a big factor when we moved into our neighborhood, but then again – any school was an improvement from the school district that we were leaving. Quality of life was our main priority – it’s part of the glue that keeps families together!
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Until this year, our county had a program called “controlled choice”. You could request that your child go to any elementary school in the county (giving up to 3 choices), and they were placed according to a lottery and some rules meant to foster racial diversity. I spent hours upon hours choosing which elementary school was “the best” for our daughter (who was entering pre-K), with our neighborhood school as my fallback choice, even though I didn’t like their test scores and some aspects of the demographics.
Well, she had to go on the waiting list for my #1 choice school … but after a few weeks at the neighborhood school, I wouldn’t have transferred her even if a spot had come open. I *love* her school! The teachers and staff are great, and so loving and warm. The kids are wonderful, and the other parents I’ve met are really nice. The school has been very responsive to my daughter’s particular needs (accelerated reading and speech therapy). “Controlled choice” was discontinued after that year for budget reasons, and since she was already in her neighborhood school, she didn’t have to change (although a lot of her classmates did).
And I have friends with a daughter the same age who goes to my #1 choice school and have had problems with their child being physically assaulted by another child on more than one occasion.
Bottom line, if you think you’ll be happier with the less-expensive home in the “solid but not the best” school zone, you’re not cheaping out on your kids. If the school was mediocre or bad, you’d be cheaping out (unless you planned on sending them to private school). But a school that you describe as “solid” is probably a place where your kids can flourish just as well as in “the best” school, and maybe even do better.
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Having been in exactly the same situation I can share how our choice worked out. We went with the modest house and have never looked back. The biggest ingredient in your child’s education is YOU! The more you are involved the more your individual child will see the value you place on education. If being a “better” neighborhood means you and your spouse stress about finances you’ll have less energy for your child. We lost one job shortly after moving, and even though it set us back, it gave me the opportunity to volunteer at my children’s school. Being there a few times a week helped me understand the educational challenges we would have to overcome. We had the money for educational after school activities. In addition, my children never felt uncomfortable in their thrift store clothing and hand me down backpacks. Choosing a modest environment freed us to spend time/energy on our children, and save for their college education where that money can really pay off!
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If you are planning to stay in the area and your kids are this young, it might be worthwhile to rent for a year in the area while you do your research. If you decide to move after a year out of that district, it is just your child’s first year of school. He/she will adapt relatively easily to starting somewhere new if needed.
That could give you additional time to research and discuss the issues with other parents and teachers. Also, renting could ease your anxiety about sinking money into a unstable real estate market for the moment.
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Sell the kids, it’s the only way.
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I totally agree with JD. I would ask Lisa whether or not her and her husband both attended the best possible schools, or if they themselves are living examples of how it’s possible to succeed, having attended “mediocre” schools. I think as long as the parents are committed to engaging their children and being part of the educational process, then the school’s “reputation” is virtually irrelevant.
As an objective, child-free observer, I would advise Lisa to make the choice that puts her family in the most secure position financially. Focus on saving the extra cash to pay for a good education where it really counts (college), rather than servicing a large mortgage to get her kids into “top notch” junior- and senior-high schools.
Also, the best gift you can give your children is not being a burden on them in your own old age. Living a financially sensible life now, and saving diligently for your own retirement is a key part of that. Crippling yourself now would impede your ability to achieve financial independence.
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That’s a tough question. I like J.D.’s answer, honestly. When we bought our home about 3 years ago we did factor in the school district. It just happened that the home we loved was in the best district and was about the same price as the homes in other districts we looked at, so I guess we just got lucky. We’re right on the border of two districts. Maybe look around the border of your districts. Is there something in the better district, but on the “border” so that it’s not in the ritzy neighborhood?
There is other sound advice in choosing the most wise financial course as well. That will allow you the freedom of saving more now for your children’s college education. College will be where the rubber meets the pavement, so to speak. In my opinion, I’d save for that rather than use the money to live in the better public school district or to spend on private school now.
As for the discussion in the comments regarding public vs. private, both my wife and I are products of public education and believe very strongly that children can excel in that environment. My wife was valedictorian of her high school class.
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The ‘best school’ is based on so many things (some that may not be of any value to you). I have two kids that go to two different schools. The one school that was
perceived as the best school is not the best in my opinion.
I think the more important question is in which option that you write about allows you more time to volunteer and be present at your child’s school?
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You are right. Kids and dreams are what make personal finance so personal. I have two kids yet to enter school, but if you talk to enough people you will find some that like one district and some that like the other district. Growing up in an under-privileged school district wasn’t bad for me. In fact it afforded me very different opportunities than the richer school district. More money might mean less fund raising for your band trip, but more money will not make your child smarter. It might facilitate in the learning, but it is the effort of the parent and child together to foster that drive to learn and work hard that will enable future success, regardless of the size of the school they attend, physically or fiscally.
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As a former public school teacher in a poor urban area, I truly believe students get out of school what their parents help them get. Most of my best students had parents who were involved in their lives and made an effort to at least connect with their teachers. Which isn’t to say those parents are active in the school, but active *with their children*. It really riles me that some people think the school should teach their child everything. Great students can come from poor schools, and the best schools can turn out students who feel entitled with no work ethic. It mostly depends on the parents.
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Lisa
I would suggest this.
1) First rent a home in the modest neighborhood and see how it goes, as in how your child copes with the school etc.
2) If you feel it is working for you, then go ahead and buy a house in the modest neighborhood. (Important note: Buy a house only if you plan to stay in it for a minimum of 7-8 years, if you are not going to, then it is simple, rent it).
Living in a modest neighborhood, by no means implies that your child will be spoiled. A child actually learns a lot from within the home itself, from his/her parents and very less from outside influences.
Another thing to note is that real millionaires actually live in modest neighborhoods. (Read “The millionaire next door” if you don’t believe.)
Actually living in modest neighborhoods does influence your kid in a good way in the sense he would learn how to live within your means (No outside spendthrift influences from people in rich neighborhood. Keep in mind that living in rich neighborhood does not necessarily make them richer or better).
PS: I still don’t have kids though, just recently married.
Good luck.
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I went to the worst schools in the worst school systems in the lowest educated state. (This is somewhat of an exaggeration, but pretty close to true. I went to Rain High School in Mobile, AL. If you look it up, you will see that I am not lying here!)
My parents were poor. Putting everything into perspective, my daughter will take the education that’s given to her. I feel that I am very successful, despite my “lower level” of education. This is because I have always wanted to learn and to be successful. I want for my daughter to experience that same thing.
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I’ve undergone a 180 on this question, since having my kids and watching them atte4nd school and get older (2 kids, now in middle school).
I grew up lower-middle class & I’m a univ professor in my late 40′s –very liberal, feminist, divorced, not rich. I live in a city with what are considered “very good” public schools, and I’m committed to sending my kids to the public schools. I’m also definitely not a “hovercraft” mom–I’m hand’s off in many ways because that was the way I was raised myself. I think teachers have enough problems without parents carping on them all the time.
I own my own home in a lower middle class to poor area of town–older tract homes with mostly retired people in them, cheap apartments, and low density public housing.
My kids accordingly attended the local public elementary school–which I was happy to see had a very diverse student body for this part of the US (rural upper midwest) (30% black-mostly Somali immigrants, 10% Hispanic). My own kids are Hispanic, so I thought this was a good fit.
Attending this elementary school has helped my kids to become very comfortable with racial and religious/ethnic diversity–as well as with their own ethnic heritage. On the other hand, I’ve had to (sadly) acknowledge that there are problems with this school.
1) The high number of ESL children means that most of the teachers’ attention is focused on these children because they struggle academically so much for at least their first few years in the US. This is great, except that other kids (including mine) who are not struggling, get ignored, or worse, my kids get pressed into acting as teachers’ aides because they are so “far ahead” of the other kids. But one of my kids is actually testing at only the average for the (rather low) minimum standards for the entire State! I don’t think this is adequate, yet the school thinks this is awesome because they have so many children who aren’t anywhere close to meeting the mimimum standards.
2) The poor tax base in the neighborhood means that the school doesn’t have the best resources, & doesn’t attract the best teachers. It’s not just cosmetic–Last winter they sent home notices saying they were only going to heat the building to 50oF, so please have the children dress warmly (!). The cafeteria is awful–they don’t cook the lunches there (no facilities) and the food is very low quality. The playground is a dirt field with a rusty swingset. The library contains fewer and very dog-eared books (I am always buying books myself for the library). The textbooks are out of date. There are no teachers’ aides. The music and art and phy ed programs are almost non-existent.
3) It is worrisome to me that about 80% of the children at my kids’ school have no plans to attend college and don’t have college educated parents. I worry because kids are influenced by their friends. It doesn’t matter so much now because they are young, but I certainly don’t want my kids to decide when they are in high school that not attending college is an option for them! Again, this is sad for me to realize because I am a liberal–but I certainly expect my kids to attend college and have high academic aspirations. I don’t see them doing this (easily, anyway) if they remain in an environment where even completing High School is a question, and where academic achievement is considered awesome if you meet the very low minimum standards.
Next year my kids will be switching to the best school area in town–which we are very fortunate to have theh option of doing because their Dad recently purchased a house in that area.
In summary, your children’s education is something you really don’t want to compromise in any way if you can possibly help it. I think it’s worth it to spend more money in order to get them into the best schools you can, since there are huge differences between schools and since these differences can really affect how your kids do later in life. If my ex wasn’t living in a good school area, I would definitely move and take the financial hit to get my kids where they need to be.
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Education is not just about school. By living in a less expensive home, you will have more money to do the extras that educate children in a different way — think music lessons, trips to aquariums, zoos and museums, foreign travel, books, theatre tickets, etc. Not only will the quality time your family spends together doing all these things be invaluable, but the education the children will receive will be as well.
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I agree with those who believe education experiences are different between schools. I moved just before entering high school and went to a good public high school. However, I had to lower my educational goals as the new high school did not have some of the language classes I wanted to take (just French, German, Spanish, and something called Latin
. I also had to fight to be educated. They normally don’t let someone take geometry and algebra in the same year but to take calculus I had to do it.
I was almost never challenged in high school. This is not because I was overly smart but because the classes were taught to the students who were slightly below average and did not do their homework. This meant the first 30 minutes of class was a waste of time.
The schools you go to will mold you as a future person. If you don’t have to try for 12 years and you are on the honor roll every term, you learn bad habits that stay with you for the rest of your life. Trust me.
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We made the choice to live in a less expensive house in an area often considered under-performing. Both our public schools and local parish school (we’re Catholic) had mediocre reputations from the outside.
Our son was 3 when we moved here – we figured we would figure it out.
Now he’s 5 and enrolled at the preK at our parish school. And you know what? Our perspective is COMPLETELY different. Both the public and parish schools are great options, with caring, committed parents from many walks of life in leadership roles.
Test scores tend to be lower because we have many kids enrolled learning English as a second language. The flip side is that our neighborhood has a lively, interesting character that was lacking in other places we considered.
The best part is that our modest lifestyle doesn’t stand out. When I hand over my stack of coupons at our (admittedly rather shabby) grocery store, the cashier admires my thrift.
And there’s something to be said for living in a ‘hood where your kids’ teachers are your neighbors – not priced out.
Lastly, remember that schools can – and do – change. And the better school district might not offer the best fit for your child. It was one of the reasons we decided against stretching to buy a more expensive home. We’ve watch friends do that and end paying private school tuition, too.
@Karen – Good points, and I may feel VERY differently in five more years.
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I also do not have kids. However, as a kid who went to 10 different schools growing up, and am graduating with a Dr. in front of my name, I think I can speak from some personal experience of different school systems.
Since your youngest is starting kindergarten it won’t hurt to rent for a year. I suggest going in gorilla style. Volunteer at a the school districts you are thinking of moving into. Get a 1st hand feel of what is going on there. Numbers only tell you so much. Maybe you will meet other parents of kids who are volunteering there and can get some other 1st hand knowledge. Talk to the teachers, get a general feel for the students. Are they rowdy? Is it a generally good environment for learning? Are the teachers involved?
Your kid will only be in kindergarten. In 1st grade, kids are at the age where they are very accepting and will make friends with anyone. I know because I went to kindergarten in 2 different states and 1st grade in another.
That way you can have peace of mind with the school decision.
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Jan (#10, teacher) has it right.
Heed her advice and go w/the best school district you can afford (or do private education). My husband is a police officer and he refused to have our children sitting next to the kid whose father was arrested for menacing the night before.
It’s not always just a matter of whether or not your kids want to learn. Peers play a big part in the success or failure of your child’s school experience. We have so many misguided children today here in the U.S.
My three have always gone to private schools and perform much better than the public school districts on the standardized tests; my oldest has received a 4-yr. merit scholarship to a very good private H.S. They are safe, accepted, and the parents teach their kids to know right from wrong.
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“If you want to do it right, do it yourself”, as they say. I think that as long as the majority of children going to your local school are not criminals or in the process of becoming criminals, then that school is fine. For education, the most important factor is the level of involvement by the parents.
My parents spent a lot of time teaching math and science to my brother and me when I was in elementary school, because they felt that the US public education system had standards that were too low in these subjects. They spent time after they got home from work making sure that we were ahead of our peers in these subjects, until we were both 2 grades ahead of our peers by the time I was starting 3rd grade. They did not use any fancy materials or videos, just practice workbooks that they bought from the local bookstore. The sheer amount of attention that my parents paid on our education ensured that we could not fail – they wouldn’t let us.
In your case, I would buy the house that made more sense financially, and pay more attention to what is going on in the schools.
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Do I ever have an opinion on this one!
I met my husband when he owned a house in a now-nationally recognized terrible school district (Kansas City, MO). We wanted to move because the house wasn’t in a great neighborhood for kids (reasonably safe, but probably half the houses in the neighborhood were or had been meth houses). We followed the school district while we lived there, and even now kind of keep up. It’s despicable the things that idiot administrators (the insult is actually added as a qualifier. There are many great principals and superintendents who have the children’s best interest at heart. They didn’t work in KCMO), teachers and school board members have done to destroy a once-great district. Whom did they also kill? Homeowners. Property values are terrible in the district because so many families have fled it.
We got out of our home in 2003, a month after our first child was born. My main requirement was an excellent school district. My husband’s was a house in the country. We settled in a country-fied district that is not perfect, but is recognized throughout our state as one of the best. We have never regretted our decision. We bought a fixer-upper, because we love to work on houses, so the mortgage is within our budget.
One of the biggest things that many families don’t think about with school districts is that special needs children are serviced within their district. We didn’t think about it at the time we moved either, but now that our oldest has been diagnosed with Autism, we are so very glad to be here. Not only is our school district “ranking” excellent, their special services are one of the best in the nation. My daughter has had exemplary therapies and interventions, and we have been completely satisfied with the way she and her disability have been cared for there.
Me? I’d say go with the better school district, but try to find a house that needs work, if you like that kind of thing, or look nearer the edges of the district or in areas with older homes. Giving your children the best environment to learn is just too important. If I had to find services privately for my daughter, which I would feel like I had to do in a terrible school district, it would break us financially.
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It’s an easy choice for me. I live in a small enough town that there are only two high schools to choose from, one public and one private. I don’t want to pay for private school (mostly because I don’t feel like the private school here is any better acedemically then the public school).
I went to a small school in a small town (30 people in my graduating class). I’m now an electrical engineer, so I’d say things worked out okay despite the quality of my school.
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Wow wow wow. You folks are awesome! Excellent thoughtful responses so far this morning. I always worry when I post something that’s so far outside my own experience, but you guys always come through.
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I would advise looking deeply at the schools you are choosing. I live in Texas, where schools are rated based primarily on test scores. I teach at our neighborhood school (one my children also attended) which is rated merely “acceptable” because of a complicated set of sub-scores. However, we also made a statewide list of outstanding schools because of the performance of some students on the same tests!
Visit the schools. Look for children’s work on display. Listen to how children are talked to — and how they are talked about. Attend a PTA meeting; try to determine how well the values of other parents fits with yours. (It need not be perfect, but you don’t want to be way out on the fringe.) Determine for yourself whether a school seems to meet your own family’s needs. Elementary school sets the tone for love of education. IMHO, it’s not worth having a child learn to read in kinder if the cost is drill-and-kill and hours of worksheets.
Then, make a choice that leaves your family with breathing room. You didn’t say whether yours is a 2-career household, but either way, having time and energy to spend at school and with your children is more valuable than most of what any school can offer in your absence.
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“Education is not just about school. By living in a less expensive home, you will have more money to do the extras that educate children in a different way — think music lessons, trips to aquariums, zoos and museums, foreign travel, books, theatre tickets, etc. Not only will the quality time your family spends together doing all these things be invaluable, but the education the children will receive will be as well.”
Totally agree with this statement. I found that you can always find ways to work the system with schools to get your child the education they need. My son’s teacher told us he had dyslexia. We had him tested, not only did he not have dyslexia but he is gifted. Opened the doors to a bunch of new opportunities for him.
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So if you find a good school district – even if it isn’t the best – you aren’t short-changing your kids. In fact you may be doing them a favor because you’ll have enough money to financially help them if they need tutoring or want to participate in special activities that might require money. You’ll not be working all the time to pay for the expensive school district and can be more involved in your kids’ school. There may be years where you get a bad teacher or principal, but those happen anywhere – you handle those on a year by year basis.
I, myself, am not from the best schools in my district. We were just a bunch of country kids with lower/middle class parents who were, at best, teachers or middle management. Few people at my school had money or role models at home that were doctors/lawyers/ higher ed. But with the advent of facebook I’ve been able to see how many of my friends have fared in life. We’ve done well – many, many post-graduate degrees – doctors, lawyers, PhD educators, pharmacists, MBAs and plenty of Master’s degrees. In other words it didn’t matter that were were in the “country bumpkin” end of our school district – we all did well – our parents saw to that.
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I agree with commenter #8. A huge part of schooling (at least in elementary years) happens at home, whether directly (by parents teaching kids) or indirectly (by parents’ attitudes toward learning).
Creating an environment at home that fosters curiosity and openness to education is the most important thing a parent can do.
I attended a fairly weak elementary school (and a pretty weak high school for that matter) in a very rural area. We had a two room school with two teachers for eight grades and the amount of teacher-student time was very limited. But we were encouraged to read or write in our journals during any downtime, and my mother loved to see me reading at home.
I grew up to be a lifelong learner and reader, I did very well in a competitive college, got a master’s degree, and am happy with my ability to learn on my own.
The home is key: create an environment that encourages learning. School is what you make of it.
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We bought a house in a decent school district and found that because of the number of children whose first language and language at home was not English, all the attention, focus and effort was placed on those kids and our kids who didn’t ‘need’ the extra effort missed out. We now pay just over $10,000 a year for private education for our two kids. The difference in their education and happiness makes it money well-spent, in our opinion. We were very happy with the public school our kids were in before we moved to this area, but frankly, we had paid the bucks to live in the best school district in the town, and yes, it was well worth it. Lesson learned for us, but none of the public schools in the town we currently live in our very good.
I can see J.D.’s point, but wow, things are a lot different now than when I was graduating high school and college. There is (I believe) much more competition now. I want to give my kids the tools to be successful in the same way my husband and are – we are not rich, but we also don’t have to worry when the furnace makes a funny noise. We are trying to educate our kids in so many different ways. School is only one piece of the equation. Working hard, not quitting even when something is tough, and learning to not spend every dime you have are some of the things that will make our kids most successful in life. Those very traits made it possible for us to put our kids in private school when my daughter had tears every day over the reading program (again, geared to ESL kids) without sufferening a quality of life for us due to financial strain over the tuition. We have choices, and that is EXACTLY what I want for my kids.
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Based on my own personal experience, I would choose the better school and neighborhood every time. Yes, it is the more expensive choice because there are other factors at play. I’ve always found the quality of the educational plan and especially the teachers themselves to be far superior on the whole. Word gets out among the parents and the school justifiably becomes coveted. In turn, the surrounding neighborhood draws in people with stable income and the area retains its value far better than that with the substandard school district. This has been my experience.
I say this because I have been on both sides of this fence. I have lived at the beach (SoCal) and the schools that my kids were fortunate enough to attend at that time were excellent. The standard of teaching, and in particular the way in which the kids were treated with respect, still stands out in my mind. The neighborhood was expensive but the quality of life was far better than the area we had to move to next to follow a promotion. That area will remain forever etched in my memory as one of the biggest mistakes we ever made! The region at the time had been hard hit by recession, so the attitudes of the locals, the neighborhoods and the schools themselves all had a pall of poverty cast over them. The biggest shock, however, was the quality of the teachers and the educational plan. I never would’ve suspected that so many bad teachers could congregate in one school alone! My kids were immediately dumbed down by an insufficient curriculum, and the total lack of respect that the teachers displayed for the kids in this particular town resulted in me becoming a permanent fixture in the Dean’s office. Right from the getgo, I found myself trying to elevate complacency among people who were only there, for the most part, to draw a paycheck. I realize that my experience represents a polar extreme but I can tell you that the promotion turned out to be a scholastic disaster for my family.
I would advise that you thoroughly investigate both schools and both neighborhoods under consideration. Take a tour of the schools with both Principals, sit in on a couple of classes, observe the children at recess and, very importantly, observe the way in which the teachers interact with the children. Ask the local Sheriff department for crime stats on the neighborhoods under consideration and scan the net for other info. As a start, go to sites like greatschools.net for academic ratings and parent comments, and city-data.com for information/questions on the forum http://www.city-data.com/forum/
As for ‘home equity’, your home is not an investment. It is primarily a place to live and lay your head. Any home equity that you lost in the past was never your money to begin with unless you sold and cashed in. I would not use the potential of ‘home equity’ in making this decision but do bear in mind that the time to make money on a house is at the time you actually purchase it. That means doing your research, looking for a bargain and not overpaying.
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We bought a modest home in a pretty good district. We could have stretched our house-buying budget to the max and bought a house in an even “better” district just 5 miles north, but it would have meant not having any money at all for any extras. And this was before we had kids!
One thing that I don’t think was really mentioned above was that *districts can change*. A district with a so-so tax base might be struggling to make ends meet as a result of the recession – so extra programs get cut and never return. OTOH, I have friends in Chicago’s outlying ‘burbs who have seen the population explode in the last 10-15 years – with that means much better districts because you have more citizens (and businesses).
If you live in a more modest home in a decent district, you will probably have more income for the extras to help your child – music lessons, tutoring, and so on.
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When I was growing up my family went from working/lower middle class to upper middle class. We moved from the city (which during those times was not considered a desirable location) to a suburb specifically picked because it had good public schools. We started out in a duplex on the edge of the district, and then moved to another house as times got better. I remember my mom telling me, buy the smallest house in the best neighborhood, and alot of what she was referring to was school district. So I am a supporter of trying to get in the best public school you can for your kids. It’s not just a matter of education (though that helps: our school has resources such as an AIG program, exceptional kids program, also arts, music, gardening program, fields trips, with highly involved teachers and parents), but also the peer group, with a higher expectation of behavior and performance. I’m personally not a fan of private schools (seem elitist to me), but I understand that’s a personal choice.
Another thing I heard another parent say, is that there are some kids who will succeed no matter where they are. But the majority of kids are helped or hindered by their (academic) environment.
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@Sean (#11)
“So what we’ve chosen to do is to pursue the “gifted” options available through our school district”
How does one “choose” to put your kid in the gifted programs? Aren’t the pupils for those programs selected based on testing and merit?
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My wife and I are in the same sort of process now as well. The one thing that is pushing us towards the better school district is my own childhood.
My parents did just as many suggest here. They took me to the library, fueled my intellectual curiosity, gave me experiences, all of that. My mom is a teacher who has one numerous teacher of the year awards at the state level, so the quality of at-home education was probably much higher than average too.
Because my parent’s were just solid middle class, I went to ok schools. The problem was that not very many children were being pushed and guided like I was and academic expectations were much lower. I figured out very early that I didn’t have to work very hard to have the best grades in my classes. Combine that with a bit of “smart people are nerds” attitude at the schools I attended and I never really worked throughout high school since there was never much challenge. And I was still the valedictorian.
I got into a very good college, but had crappy study habits and work ethic when it came to school and did pretty meh in undergrad. As a result when I returned to grad school, even though my work experience, grad school entrance exam tests etc… were excellent, my mediocre undergrad GPA kept me out of the best grad programs. I ended up doing great in the grad program, but I always kinda wished I had gone to more challenging schools as an adolescent, so that I would have been in the right frame of mind in undergrad.
I guess my point is that the schools don’t need to be the best but kids need to be challenged. We are looking for areas that have plenty of well-educated parents that are more involved with their kids like we are so that our children’s peers will be coming from the same background as they are. We feel like this sort of environment, at least “good” schools, our efforts, and factoring in our own kids abilities will provide the best opportunity for our kids since it seems like focusing on any one aspect is too myopic
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What RMoM says is also true, it can be a good financial decision as well. Though this is only from personal experience, houses in good school districts hold and increase their value more than houses in districts with not-so good schools. It’s all about demand. This is going on in our current neighborhood, with bidding wars and tear downs because it is a relatively small area.
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The school your child goes to is very important. I would not have necessarily believed that if I hadn’t seen it for myself.
Our first grader, who is a little genius, was blessed enough to have a private daycare provider who spent a good portion of time teaching the children. She then went to kindergarten and had a great teacher. She blossomed.
This year, she’s stagnating and in some areas moving backwards. Homework has gone from being something she loved to do to pulling teeth. It is now hard for her because she isn’t getting the tools she needs to complete the homework and they are dumping *way* too much homework on her.
It is certainly not anything we are doing. I am a stay-at-home parent and we are very involved in her academic life. We also spend some of our time educating her ourselves and giving her access to additional programs. She picks up and retains all of that without problems.
We’ve narrowed it down to two things:
1. She’s not getting what she needs from the teacher. My daughter wants to learn, but she’s not getting the guidance she needs during school hours. We can’t do anything about that and our daughter certainly can’t either. The teacher is, frankly, not very good.
2. She’s not getting what she needs from the school. The principal is *excellent* at dealing with kids who need extra help, but as Karen noted above, that means other kids (including mine) aren’t getting what they need. And otherwise the principal is terrible, lacking leadership and administrative skills.
We are fortunate in that our child is in a magnet program. We can pull her out (and plan on it) at any time and send her to a school with a great reputation that is actually closer to our house. We are also blessed with an income that allows us to send her to a private school of our choosing, which we are also considering.
So my advice, based on my (admittedly limited) experience is to make sure you retain the ability to change your child’s school. Even a good school may not be a good fit with your child. You don’t want to be locked into a school that is not working for your child regardless of reputation.
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