I’ve been stewing over something for the past few days, and I’m finally ready to write about it.
I’m not a fan of judging others and their actions. Like Atticus Finch, I believe you never really know a person until you stand in their shoes and walk around in them. But I’m human. Like everyone, there are times I can’t help passing judgment. And although I know that judging others isn’t productive, sometimes I’m at a loss to do anything else.
Rock bottom
I had dinner with my buddy Michael last week. Michael’s moving back to Portland after several years away, and his financial life is a mess. He’s had a rough couple of years:
- He lost his home to foreclosure.
- He lost his job.
- His wife is out of work, too.
- And, last month, Michael filed for bankruptcy.
Not all of Michael’s problems are due to the economy. He’s brought plenty of woe upon himself due to a typical consumer lifestyle. He knows that.
Over a meal of southern-style fried chicken — my treat — we talked a lot about his financial situation. We’ve chatted some in the past, but I never feel like what I say makes much of an impact. I don’t want to be too pushy, for one thing, but I also get the impression that Michael isn’t ready to hear the message. Now, however, that may be changing. He has a haunting, hunted look about him.
Michael told me about the mistakes he’s made and the lessons he’s learned. He also confessed that he borrowed money from a family member, but had never repaid the loan. “It tears me up inside,” he said. “I feel so guilty.” Once he gets everything worked out, his goal is to pay that money back as soon as possible.
Michael explained how he’s hoping to set up a budget; he wants to set money aside for things before buying them. “Plus, I want to pay myself first,” he told me. “I’ve been reading about saving. I want to open a savings account and set aside $400 per month. My wife thinks we should use the money for other stuff, but I really think we should save.”
Old habits
Because Michael is a good friend, I want to help him and his family. (Michael and his wife have two kids.) I’ve been watching for cheap rentals in the Portland area, and even found a house where he could stay for $500 a month (which is incredibly cheap). There are some drawbacks to the place, and I wouldn’t suggest that he and his family stay there long term, but it’d be an awesome temporary home be while they get back on their feet.
“Thanks for finding that place,” Michael told me as he took a bite of mashed potatoes and gravy. “But we’ve decided to rent someplace else. We found a place in Rock Creek for $1300 a month.”
“Wow,” I said. “That seems like a lot.”
“Not really,” he said. “That’s pretty good for similar places in Portland. Plus, it gives us space for our two dogs.”
I sighed inside. Sure, that may be a good price compared to similar houses, but I know there are tons of places to live in Portland for less than $1300 a month — if Michael and his wife are willing to make some sacrifices. I wanted to pursue this line of questioning — What about getting rid of the dogs? Why not look at the $500/month place I found? — but I let it go. You can only argue with your friends so much, right? We moved on to other topics.
Michael mentioned that although his wife is still looking for work, he’s managed to find a job. (He was vague about what the work entailed and how much it paid.) He even has transportation. “I’m borrowing an old beater until I have a chance to buy a new car,” he told me. Michael’s last vehicle belonged to his employer, so he came to town not only homeless and jobless, but carless as well.
“You might want to wait to buy a new car until you’re more sure of your situation,” I said. “There’s nothing wrong with driving an old beater. Heck, where you’ll be living, you could ride the light rail into work.”
“I hadn’t thought of that,” Michael said. And from the way he said it, I could tell he still wasn’t thinking of it. In his mind, he needs a car — and a new one, too.
Further to fall
Before we parted ways, Michael gave me his new cell phone number. “What happened to your old phone?” I asked.
“It was the company’s. I had to give it back,” he said.
“That makes sense,” I said. “What did you get instead? Did you go with a prepaid phone? That’s a great way to save money.”
Michael evaded the question, but when we stood up to leave, I noticed the phone hanging from his belt clip: a brand-new iPhone. Later I learned from a mutual friend that Michael didn’t just buy a new iPhone for himself, but he bought one for his wife and for his 11-year-old son as well. (And he bought his 9-year-old son an iPod Touch so he wouldn’t feel left out.)
This is the part of the story where you now have to imagine a little black squiggle hanging over my head, like in the comic strips. This is the point at which I go from being sympathetic for my friend to judging him — and not favorably.
The mote in my eye
But as I began to silently judge Michael’s choices, I thought of my recent trip to Alaska. I spent ten days on the boat with my neighbor, the “real millionaire next door“, and in those ten days I often felt like I was being judged.
- Before the trip, I bought a $120 backpack at REI. My goal is to use this for much of my travel during the coming years. It fits in an overhead compartment, and is a great way to limit what I carry. John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
- On the first day, Mac and I tore a paper towel in half, and we each used our half as a napkin for several days. Eventually my napkin became grimy and gross, so I went to tear off another half a paper towel. When John saw me, he scolded me and told me I ought to use a cloth towel instead.
- Near the end of the trip, I threw a molding orange overboard. “I wish you hadn’t done that,” John said. “I could have cut out the bad part and eaten the rest.”
- On the last day, I went to the bookstore in Sitka and bought a copy of Bruce Chatwin’s In Patagonia, which I’ve been wanting to read for a long time. (After our trip to France and Italy this year, Kris and I hope to save for a trip to Argentina and Chile in 2012 or 2013.) When John saw I’d bought a new book, he shook his head. “I’ve got a lot of perfectly good books here on board,” he said, indicating his library of old paperbacks.
Throughout the trip, I felt like I was under pressure to, well, be more frugal, to make the same choices John would make. And you know what? That pressure sucked. It felt awful. I didn’t like the feeling of being judged, especially by somebody I look up to.
To judge, or not to judge?
So, I’m torn. As much as I hate to judge others, sometimes I can’t help it — and now I’m judging Michael. He says he wants to change, he says he’s learned his lesson from his bankruptcy, but his actions say otherwise.
He has no savings, no car, no home. His wife is out of work, and he’s only just started a new job himself. Yet he’s decided to rent a $1300 house, is looking to buy a new car, and has signed up for at least $180/month in cell phones. (I’m ignoring the start-up costs of the phones.) These are just the things I know about. Michael is talking the talk, but he’s not walking the walk. (I’m reminded of a previous conversation with another friend.)
I know how tough it can be to change your behavior. I’ve been there before. I used to talk about changing, too, without making any actual change. I’m sure my friends just shook their heads at me. (In fact, I know that some of my friends used to wonder at my foolish choices — they’ve told me so.)
I hope Michael turns things around, but I can’t help but judge his actions right now. And I don’t know how to help him.
Footnote #2: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
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@ Shara, it was the phrase “get rid of” that upset many animal people. It makes them sound like so much junk you can just dump. Finding a new home for your pets sometimes becomes necessary, as in your case, but I bet you made sure it was a good one, and you don’t make a habit of “getting rid of” inconvenient dependents.
I disagree that the neighbor was being a jerk. JD admires the man, has talked to him about frugality many times, so I’m sure he thinks JD is interested in his opinion and how he would do things differently. It’s not his fault JD’s position has changed somewhat; the habit is formed.
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Great post and comments. I’ll take up the Biblical theme of “casting stones” to categorize my response. Your neighbor seems to have subscribed to a pharisaical view of life–his ways of living are the law and others need to measure up. He doesn’t sound like a man with much joy. My hope in moving toward being debt-free and living better financially is that I live with more joy and hope, less fear and miserliness. This gets me to your relationship with your friend. No one can be convinced against their will. So it seems like the task will be for you to continue to live well and wait for the moments when he is curious. There will probably be a lot of sad moments in between now and when he hits bottom.
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Getting rid of the dogs is certainly an option. It is in fact a legal and valid option (not like getting rid of your kids or husband/wife). Contrary to what some people think, dogs are not people and are not entitled to the same rights and protections of humans. YOUR opinion may be that a dog is part of your “family”, which is fine, but we don’t know what the author or his friend feels about dogs.
If his friend had 10 dogs, wouldn’t some of you who would condemn the author say then, “well, 10 dogs is a little high, he could get rid of one or two?” Well, my view is that two dogs and annual/monthly/daily expenses associated with them are too high for someone who has no money/bankrupt/owes his family (i.e, real people) money.
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Like many who have posted, I know someone in a similar situation. It’s like trying to talk an alcoholic out of drinking, though, they have to decide it for themselves. You cannot force them to change, it must come from a genuine desire to make a better life.
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I love how people who think it’s morally wrong to walk away from a mortgage think it’s perfectly acceptable to dump a living creature that depends on you for its LIFE.
Animals are way cheaper than iphones and cars, not to mention kids. To even suggest that as a solution at this point is specious. When they’ve stripped to the bone, to the point where it’s difficult to feed the kids, then maybe finding a new home for the pets is appropriate. Not now.
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It seems like this article was actually letter to your friend. I bet your friend is going to read this article and respond in some way. JD, please post a follow up of your friends response.
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JD– I think you’re going to have to put that second footnote in the comments and box it.
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J.D., this was a fantastic article, just by the number of comments so far you can tell that you really hit home with this one.
You have great insight to recognize the parallels between your relationship with John and Michael’s relationship with you. I think that this is what’s so easy miss. It’s the idea that somehow you’re different. That your $120 REI bag may be no different from Michael’s iPhones for him and his family. That’s insight that I think most of us would have missed.
From the outside it’s so easy to just look at the information available and point at Michael and say that he’s wrong that his spending is extravagant and frivolous. But we all do some spending that’s extravagant, even John at one point in time bought a boat.
As for Michael, people won’t change unless they want to change. It’s clear that he’s shown some interest in changing, and although we from the outside may not agree with every financial decision he’s making (spending $1300 on an apartment rather than $500), it sounds like he is making steps in right direction. J.D. I think you’re doing a great job of being a patient friend, trying to guide Michael who isn’t yet at the same place in his financial journey as you are.
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Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
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I am perfectly happy to admit I judge all the time.
When one of my co-workers leaves the break room in a mess, while I am cleaning it up I am judging that person an insensitive clod.
When someone begins to jaywalk across seven lanes of rush-hour traffic, I am judging that person an idiot. (Really; half a block down there is a traffic signal. Saving the two minutes it would take to walk the extra distance is worth your – or someone else’s – health or life? Idiot!)
When a friend insists that she wants to completely re-do her home but won’t give up any of her non-functional furniture, I am judging her as self-deluded.
Good judgement means being able to distinguish between kind/unkind, safe/unsafe, profitable/unprofitable, generous/miserly, etc. If you say one shouldn’t make any distinctions because judging is “wrong” you are kidding yourself.
One of the things I most like about J.D. is his willingness to publish things about himself. Things we don’t all approve of.
I don’t agree that the RMND needs an analyst (come on, people), I think he’s just a tactless old man who is set in his ways. And I don’t agree that J.D. should “confront” Michael. If Michael ever really hits bottom, I’m confident that J.D. will help him – regardless of his justified feelings that Michael has brought all this on himself.
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We’ll, your posts prior to this one glowed about the virtues and beauty of SE Alaska. Much much more positive a trip than the bitter preaching pill John gave you while he was in control. He was the Owner, Captain, First Mate & more while you both did what basic help he requested. Did you help pay for the fuel, morrage, insurance, maintenance, etc for the boat? Several gallons per hour cruising at Alanka fuel prices! Yes, he might have been speaking from rough times in the past, but then again, isn’t this blog all about sharing this? The old saying about if you want to really get to know someone, go on a 500 mile road trip with them. You spent a week +, so some of this was bound to come out. Is he really all that different? Did it kill your friendship? I think not..
Michael has already drowned once and has been rescued & is just now shoving away on the same path. His nose hasn’t been blooded yet, but in many ways he’s following the same path as many of us following your blog. Some get IT right away, some take a much deeper bottom. Comments 18,27,31,48,66,70&72 are really spot on & hit a chord with me. Don’t keep the light on for him JD, but stand ready to give the family a warm meal at some point – from food from the garden. Really enjoy your blog and readers. Thanks All
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JD,
Why don’t you gift your friend your book?
My older sister is struggling with money right now, she tells me that money is tight and then they go and buy an new shed for the house because she didn’t like all the gardening tools in the garage. She too has read “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” and similar books, but nothing on basic personal finance.
A couple of weekends ago I was talking to her about the transformation our mother’s finance has gone through since I helped our mother start using the budget from “All Your Worth”. As we talked I noticed that my sister was interested in the budget system.
This past weekend when I saw my sister again I brought her my copy of “All Your Worth” and your book and just mentioned that she seemed interested in the budged our mom was using so I thought I would pass along the book and a new one that I really liked.
I’ll leave it up to her to read the books and to take the first step. I have a feeling my sister isn’t quite ready to make the changes she needs to, but she will have some tools available to her when she is ready.
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I agree with an earlier commenter who suggested that your neighbor has probably lived alone too long.
You’ve mentioned him in several posts and he’s held up as a good example in many ways. But based on the other posts my impression is that he lives alone, never married, never had kids. I never see anything about family.
He seems gleeful at his “million” and all the ways he’s saved, but is it worth it without close family and friends? If he’s as judgmental with everyone else as he was with you, perhaps he drives people away. Would you take another week-long trip with him, based on your experience?
I may be totally off base but it’s just the impression I’m getting (and the judgment I’m making…:) ).
Great post.
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Getting rid of the dogs is certainly an option. It is in fact a legal and valid option (not like getting rid of your kids or husband/wife).
Lots of things are legal. That doesn’t necessarily make them right.
Contrary to what some people think, dogs are not people and are not entitled to the same rights and protections of humans.
Lack of legal protection doesn’t make people who abuse dogs or abandon them any less horrible.
YOUR opinion may be that a dog is part of your “family”, which is fine, but we don’t know what the author or his friend feels about dogs.
One could make the argument that if the friend ditches the dogs, then he considers an ipod to be more part of the ‘family’ than the dogs. Fortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the case here.
Personally, I would go homeless (or cellphoneless) before “getting rid of” my dog. They really don’t take that much money to take care of month to month. Certainly not more than a high-end cell phone.
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One thing to note regarding Michael’s situation: When family is involved (a wife and kids in this case), it’s a lot harder to change spending habits if the other spouse isn’t on board. I don’t know what Michael’s wife thinks of their financial situation, but if it’s going to be a huge stress on their marriage then Michael’s going to probably choose peace. If both spouses are of the same mindset, change is much easier.
J.D. – If I recall correctly, you’ve mentioned that Kris was always a great saver. Once you decided to change, you didn’t have to change your spouse’s habits because she was already saving. This was a big advantage for you that Michael may not have right now.
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I get really angry hearing people like “Michael” talk about their financial woes and still do nothing. I know some of my friends from work are jealous that I’m able to stay at home with the new baby but they seem to forget we don’t have cable, drive old cars, etc.
As for the bankruptcy, it really makes me angry to know that their reckless financial decisions affect everyone–even the innocent and responsible ones. For instance, the neighbors who are paying their mortgage but see their property value drop because of a foreclosure, the bank employees who are laid off due to so many defaulting loans, etc. I could go on all day!
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JD: This isn’t about your friend or your neighbor, it’s about you.
You have to decide if you can (1) continue to hang out with Michael and listen to him complain about his financial woes without offering him constructive criticism or without his complaints driving you nuts, and (2) continue to hang out with John because the benefits of his relationship with you outweigh the frustration you feel because of his tightwad remarks.
Just remember, opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one, but most people think that everyone else’s stinks.
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No one is perfect, including yourself. Once you accept the flaws in yourself, you can then accept the flaws in others. Your friend, Michael, has flaws just as you do. You need to accept the flaws in other people, and understand that everyone has some flaw. No one is perfect.
Once you accept that he simple has different flaws than you do, and the RMND also simply has different flaws than yourself, then you can being enjoying your friendship with Michael again. Be a friend first, and then offer to help, rather than judge. People dont like being judged, but often, especially when in trouble, they dont mind help.
Explain to Michael the success stories of your readers and even yourself. Let him know that there are many others who have been in his situation before, many of whom are now thriving. This would give him hope. People in his situation tend to give up, thinking that their dreams are dashed and there is no point in thinking about anything other than surviving the day.
I’m sure you remember those days. Its not until you realize that there *is* a way out that you will start on the journey. Bad things have happened to him. Get him out of his depression first, show him a way out of the maelstrom, and then offer advice.
If he still doesnt take it, dont judge, because he simply has different flaws than you, not less of them.
As for the RMND, well, he just sounds like a grumpy old man. =)
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IMHO, unwanted advice, whether it’s on finances, pets, parenting, or dieting is always going to be annoying at best and offensive at worst.
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JD,
This is one of the major reasons I like to read your blog. Not only do you address the personal finance issues, but you think about and address the PERSONAL issues that come along with them. It is great that you were able to look at the situation from the perspective of the one being judged, and empathize.
Regarding this situation, I think your previous statement holds true… it sounds like he is not ready to hear what really needs to be done. I don’t know how to get people ready to listen, but it doesn’t sound like he is ready to yet.
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I have a friend who is much more frugal than I am, and he gets het up about people being broke and complaining about it, while still being wasteful. It’s hard on him, and I feel bad for him when it happens.
One of the cardinal rules of communication I learned, that sometimes helps, is to not try to help, but to tell what you did. If not that, maybe lend him some books you think are more appropriate than Rich Dad, Poor Dad?
I know somewhere on your blog you talk about surviving with one car that is a ‘beater’ and no savings cushion, but I wish you would rehash that. I see you over and over suggesting this, and my experience was that was a terrifying way to live, and I know at least two people who lost their jobs that way. I ended up just getting rid of my beater and going car-free for many years. What’s your secret?
(Obviously, if your friend has access to public transit for all the places _his whole family_ *needs* to go, it’s less of an issue. If you want to be helpful, you might try seeking out books and information about living a car-free lifestyle in the Portland area. When you have kids, it’s especially hard to imagine living with no car or a car that might not be completely reliable.)
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Having a teenager will toughen you up when your friends dont take your advice. To combat being constantly cranky, I laugh/commiserate with other parents of teenagers.
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Just curious, am I the only one here who has a hard time being friends with someone I don’t respect? I don’t mean friendly or polite. But the less I respect someone the looser my association with the person becomes, and the less we seem to have in common.
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Like lots of folks have said, Michael may just not be ready to hear the advice you have to offer.
Then again, maybe it *is* instructive to look at your reaction to comments made by your neighbor–and apply that to your interactions with Michael. Your neighbor’s comments may have annoyed you because they didn’t take into account where *you* are, they just reflected his point of view.
Think about Michael’s current comfort zone and offer some suggestions that might move him closer to solid financial ground–while respecting where he is right now.
For example: It’s awesome that you located a place for him to rent that is so cheap. At the same time, you yourself said it wasn’t anyplace you’d suggest he stay for a long time. So it could look like such a drastic change to Michael that he and his family aren’t willing to consider it.
Maybe you could focus your effort on offering options that are a little bit more affordable but don’t represent that drastic change. If he’s looking at a $1300 house, and you know of plenty of places that go for $1100/month, why not turn him on to the $1100/month places (or even a $1000/month place!) that will feel comfortable to him and his family, instead of the $500/month place?
Instead of getting annoyed because he’s not willing to go carless, or to deal with the unpredictable pain-in-the-butt factor of a true beater car, what about giving him the heads-up on which cars are really good buys in the gently-used category?
I suspect there’s lots of useful info you could impart that might be helpful for him to hear–and that might be close enough to his current comfort zone that he’d actually *hear* it.
And oh yeah, there’s nothing wrong with talking about your own choices as an example; just try to frame it so it resonates with his current level of financial intelligence. Like, don’t focus just on how you saved up the cash to buy your Mini. Talk about how you weren’t comfortable with the thought of buying a used car… until you bought your Mini used, which turned out to be a great decision because you love the car *and* you got a deal on it. (Unspoken message: yes, save $ for the car before you buy it, but more important, used cars aren’t icky.)
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JD,
Outside of the any additional comments related to your friend, I would very interested in understanding your dislike of the Rich Dad series.
I have seen many points/comments related to what a scam the seminars are, but I found that at least the book’s approach to focusing on cash flow investing and balance sheets an interesting. Of course, the “you can be rich” aspect of the book I simply viewed as marketing spin.
thanks for your efforts on the website which is is rapidly becoming a daily read of mine.
Eric
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I don’t think I’d give Michael a copy of your book, but a copy of something that you read when you were starting out. I get frustrated with my boyfriend sometimes because although he’s paying off his debts, he’s willing to push back his payoff date sometimes to get something he wants now. I’m just not that way but I am glad I have him to make me stop and think – sometimes things ARE worth it.
I second what others have said about dirty napkins around your mouth and moldy fruit being dangerous. The only thing you can cut mold off of and still eat is cheese. Everything else, you should throw away not just the moldy piece, but every other piece of fruit that it touched.
I don’t think people should get rid of pets either, but maybe just by suggesting it JD could get Michael to look at things a different way. “Oh, you’re not willing to give up the dogs? What ARE you going to give up?” In a way Michael’s in a worse spot than JD was, because JD had to learn frugality when he paid off his debt, while Michael may not have any debt because he declared bankruptcy and discharged it all. At least he can’t buy a new house – and really, he probably won’t be able to finance a new car either because his credit will be terrible. He probably just doesn’t realize that yet because he hasn’t tried.
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I don’t have time to read all the comments, so forgive me if I’m repeating.
First, didn’t your millionaire friend just treat you to a trip on his boat? That’s incredibly generous.
Second, does your friend in financial straits read your blog? Did I miss it–did you ask him if you could write about his woes?
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@Shara. Some people are quite lovely if they just don’t talk about certain subjects. Like… I never talk about religion or politics in some places I’ve lived.
WRT wealthy southern Californian whining… they are not people I would seek out for friendship, but are often included in groups with which one socializes. Sometimes they have quite lovely children. The whining is why we are not friends, even if our children are.
I think there’s probably a reason that etiquette suggests not discussing financial matters.
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I used to be like Michael but there is now a fundamental difference between the two of us ~ I hit rock bottom and he hasn’t.
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I don’t think you are ‘judging’ him. He asked you for your advice, you gave it to him. He seemed to balk at everything you said. You can’t help him, he can only help himself. This isn’t a judgement, it’s an observation. You both live very different lives, yours has help you keep your sanity and given you a calmness about your life. His is obviously very chaotic and although he truly believes that the ‘gods’ are against him, he is a product of his own making. He’s an attention grabber. First with ‘flashy’ stuff and now when he can no longer have the glitz he is playing your card by claiming that he wants to change, because he wants your sympathy, he wants your attention. Don’t feel bad, accept it for what it is, who he is. Be a friend, but let him be and when he stumbles and falls don’t pick him back up, let him do it himself.
As for your boating trip, are you sure my mother wasn’t there?…
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I was going to scold you about the dogs then I looked at my Golden Retriever. It would take a helluva lot to get my dog away from me, but then I thought about his situation before we got him. We adopted him after our older Golden died last year. Niles (the new dog) was an owner surrender. The story I was told is that the old owners had to downsize into an apartment that had no yard and was near a busy street. They gave him to the local Golden Retriever rescue and we adopted him. I know how heart wrenching it much have been for them to give up Niles. But they did the absolute best for him and probably for themselves, too, by giving him to the rescue. Niles is in great hands now and in better health now, too (it’s amazing what high quality pet food can do for a dog).
So I can’t scold you for suggesting they get rid of their dogs. It’s one of the last things I would ever consider doing, but there are ways to get rid of them that are beneficial to the pet and the family.
I have no doubt Niles is in a better home for him right now and I’d be willing to bet his previous owners are thankful not to have the costs associated with feeding and caring for a 100lb dog.
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@#123 Shara
Right on! We were very good friends with a married couple our age until we A) had kids and B) changed jobs and had to get frugal. Now I simply don’t have anything in common with them because I don’t like shopping for ‘fun’ anymore, and I don’t spend money I don’t have trying to look like someone I’m not. They both work, and manage their debt, but there sure is a lot of it–and massive student loans haven’t even kicked in yet.
I often find myself judging them behind their backs…which I am definitely not proud of. I wish I was brave enough to bring up that financial conversation with them, but I was always too chicken to open that can of worms. Sadly, the friendship has just drifted away. Whether that is a result of my recent disdain for their consumer driven lifestyle, or just a lack of things in common, I don’t know.
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This one is a tough one cause you want to help your friend but at the same time you don’t want to be the “nagging” friend that always offers financial advice. It’s like when you were young your parents would tell you something over and over again and you would hear them but you weren’t really listening. I think your friend has to hit rock bottom in order for him to change his spending ways. He’s obviously not ready so it’s hard to help someone when they are not ready (just like any addict). Just be there for him and remind him that you were once there so you know how he feels and keep on reminding him that’s it’s possible to change. Tell him to subscribe to your blog too!!
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Glad to see you’ll be working on something related to pets. I’ve had the same cats from when I was financially irresponsible to financially responsible and honestly, I couldn’t imagine my life without them. They, like my general community, family and friends, are a huge part of my emotional well-being. (And uh, yeah, most socialized pets like more people than just the people who feed them so…I’m not sure what animals you’re meeting, Holly, unless they just don’t like you – which should tell you something!)
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1 thing about processing good advice –
I do recall reading about personal finance methods and having subaccounts for categories that regularly pop up (taxes, car trouble, replacement items, modest day-trip vacations, etc.) and I recall thinking, “Is this woman insane?”
It wasn’t until I had a budget going for a few years and I’d worked to pay off most of my debt that the idea resonated with me.
I actually have a subaccount FOR my PETS now, instead of pet insurance. I figured for the number of cats I have, with the age they are, and the ltd usage of some basic pet insurances, I’d be better going with saving $100+/month and using the compounding interest to put us in the best position. Even with 2 house calls and a hospitalization and using a good $3k out of that account, I still have over $8k saved for my cats’ vetting (in addition to my $10-15k emergency fund, and a separate One Day/Downpayment Fund).
So yeah, I was there also and I made so many stupid mistakes after that – I recall buying $200 worth of clothing at Target of all places (against my rent money) and ripping off all the tags as soon as I got home so I COULDN’T return them, out of spite. I would judge then-me now, though!
I think judging is natural and also informs how we relate to people with that topic (I’d be less likely to offer treating my friend if I knew this was their financial life because I wouldn’t want to enable). But empathy is also important.
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KC – that’s a reality for a small margin of homeless pets in the US but a wonderful story – I wish that was the reality for them all!
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There is an enormous difference between Michael compared to you and you compared to your neighbor.
Michael is irresponsible with other peoples’ money and he has a very low self-discipline as he apparently wants to be more frugal but can’t control his urges. I guess that judging others rarely is a good idea but you do have good reasons to judge Michael for not living up to some very basic standards of human behavior.
He is dragging himself more and more down like a drug addict or an alcoholic, and he seems to be dragging you down with him. He must be a very good friend since you still associate with him. I hope he will change some day but it seems unlikely.
I’d suggest that you chose one of three options:
- Completely ignore the subject of money when he is around and talk about whatever else that you usually talk about
- Tell him openly what you think and offer to help and coach him
- Find other friends
You, on the other hand, are only being “wasteful” with your own money. You stay within your means and what you buy is entirely up to you (and your wife). Unless you told your neighbor that you want to be like him, he is simply judging you for not living up to HIS standards and that is IMO respectless. Perhaps you don’t want to live like him, perhaps you DO want to save less and spend more than he does. What is wrong with that? You’re not hurting anyone by making a conscious decision to buy another book.
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J.D., this was a great post and probably very difficult to write. But I’m so glad you did.
I think you know on some level that you cannot help him. You can offer advice, free books and an example to live by, but you can’t help him unless he wants to help himself. It’s sad, but it’s true. We are born with free will, and it can be our downfall.
I have a similar situation with a friend. The combination of a bad economy, a bankrupt company and his own spending habits got him there. I’m sad for his situation, but I know this is something he has to work out for himself. The lessons he has to learn cannot be taught by any other means than experience.
Your friend probably has farther to fall before he really hits rock bottom. If you think it’s ugly now, it will just get worse. I’ve seen it happen before.
I admire your desire to be a friend to this man. That says a lot about you as a person. Your actions speak louder than words.
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John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
Well, for starters, a heavy and unbalanced bag can cause serious back problems if you’re planning to carry it while traveling extensively. Is saving $120 worth the possibility of years of back problems?
As you’ve pointed out many times, JD, frugality is about making choices to use your available resources in ways that that make you happy. For most of us that means taking care of the future and having some fun along the way. Some of John’s behaviors aren’t frugal, they’re health hazards.
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I have been a pet sitter and have been a pet owner for most of my life. But give me a break. The commenters who are saying that you make a commitment to the dogs are being unrealistic. People need to keep their commitments to other people first, which includes taking care of yourself financially, your family financially, and being able to make sure that you can take care of bills and other financial responsibilities before bringing animals into the mix. Millions of people who own pets shouldn’t even have them. It’s very sad that many of these relinquished pets have been euthanized, but it’s always possible to drop the animals off at a rescue or no-kill shelter. It’s insane to me that people who obviously read this post are still saying it’s a bad idea to give the dogs away. Hello! This guy barely has it together. It’s not the dogs’ fault, but he has to take care of himself first and foremost.
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I’m thinking about this a lot today (probably because I have an issue with judging people)…
I wonder if a simple comment to Michael such as “come talk to me when you’re really ready to make a change, and I’ll show you some of the strategies I used” would work? It could pique his interest by you reading into the situation that he’s “not really ready yet” and also show him you’re willing to help. Slightly judgmental, yes, but it puts the onus back on him.
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I’ve a friend who does have this problem, he knows that he has a problem but he doesn’t want to change. Hours of discussion and nothing changed, he even disliked sitting with me because of my way trying to convince him. Believe me, it isn’t worth it.
You did your job giving him advice, then the rest is up to him not you, until he change his habits, you need to learn this lesson clearly :
” God created people to be different, Why ?
Because if all people were good and have the best jobs around, no one would clean the floor then .. right ? ”
People like him are there because there are successful people too.
Thanks
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Michael is a spendthrift and John is a miser.
There is a happy and rational medium in between the two extremes.
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Comments about John
Point 2 (paper towels): If it’s best to start with cloth towels, why not just start with cloth to begin with?
Point 3 (orange): NO. Just because a part isn’t visibly moldly doesn’t mean the germs haven’t already spread out to it. It’s similar to the potato salad that’s been out too long: it looks OK, but eating it will make you sick to your stomach.
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Dan @ 53: Love the very apt Carlin reference!
I agree that we naturally judge. We could not navigate through our complicated world without almost constantly making value judgments.
I also agree that few people want advice, and almost none want unsolicited advice.
Even if a friend says they want advice or help, they may not. All they may really want is the illusion that they’re doing something productive merely by asking for advice.
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Agh my brohter does this to me and I just want to shake him! (with big sister love ofcoarse) He ALONE makes 3x what we make as a family but he is always broke. I’ve tried. But his classification of ‘wants’ vs ‘needs’(2 dvd players in the car-and only one child. ‘But we’re palnning on having another’ he said…) is out of wack and until he gets that straight there is nobody in the world that can help.
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Oh man, I just ate at the Screen Door on Memorial Day – outstanding! Glad you enjoyed your meal!
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It’s such a fine line. We have friends who spend lavishly, and usually on credit, yet they have serious money troubles. (Or rather, they DID, but rolled their debt into their mortgage. Now they think their troubles are over, but it’s still debt, just being paid out over a much longer period of time.) The husband refuses to go on a budget because it might ruin his fun. Seriously. His wife told me that! I did lend them a PF book at one point, which the wife read. They tried a budget… for a month. I guess I should feel glad for them that they tried, if briefly?
Or the kid whose parents haven’t been able to afford the cost of youth camp any of the years he’s gone. The church pays for him. However, they travel a lot and spend a ton on their other kid’s sport. When their kid is excitedly telling us about his new guitar amp, it’s hard NOT to judge. However, I have to remind myself that I don’t know how or where he got the amp. Maybe it’s used. Maybe the kid has been mowing lawns and bought it with his own money. I don’t know, so I can’t dwell on it.
I learned a while ago that I can’t take on my friends’ problems. I used to worry about the friends I mentioned above. It would eat me up, then I finally came to the realization that the problem is theirs. I can’t fix it; it’s not my responsibility to fix it. They can do what they want, as long as it’s not affecting me. That was very freeing when I finally came to that conclusion. But I still have a hard time not shaking my head at their stupid financial decisions.
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It seems to me that John does not understand the distinction between criticism and *constructive* criticism.
Also, I feel like JD is getting chastised needlessly for the pet issue. He said it in an off-hand way that detracts from his point, which is that having two dogs is not valid justification for spending an extra $800 PER MONTH on an apartment.
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This is a very interesting read, and no you shouldn’t judge anyone, but he’s made terrible decisions & hasn’t learned anything! Whereas the small things that you “splurged” on were made into a much bigger deal by your buddy. Get rid of that guy! **sidenote-the first thing I thought to get rid of were the dogs; I mean sure they’re cute and cuddly, but they are also an unnecessary expense! (Suck it up animal Lovers).
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Great post. Reminds me of my best friend. She is in a horrible mess and sinking further every day. I kind of just listen, but the other day she showed me her new Coach purse. She said she needed something BUT for the first time she bought it at the outlet mall to save. Guess some take small steps. (Ok,I’ll confess, at the time I was thinking to myself “Goodwill” is where she should have shopped!)
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