I’ve been stewing over something for the past few days, and I’m finally ready to write about it.
I’m not a fan of judging others and their actions. Like Atticus Finch, I believe you never really know a person until you stand in their shoes and walk around in them. But I’m human. Like everyone, there are times I can’t help passing judgment. And although I know that judging others isn’t productive, sometimes I’m at a loss to do anything else.
Rock bottom
I had dinner with my buddy Michael last week. Michael’s moving back to Portland after several years away, and his financial life is a mess. He’s had a rough couple of years:
- He lost his home to foreclosure.
- He lost his job.
- His wife is out of work, too.
- And, last month, Michael filed for bankruptcy.
Not all of Michael’s problems are due to the economy. He’s brought plenty of woe upon himself due to a typical consumer lifestyle. He knows that.
Over a meal of southern-style fried chicken — my treat — we talked a lot about his financial situation. We’ve chatted some in the past, but I never feel like what I say makes much of an impact. I don’t want to be too pushy, for one thing, but I also get the impression that Michael isn’t ready to hear the message. Now, however, that may be changing. He has a haunting, hunted look about him.
Michael told me about the mistakes he’s made and the lessons he’s learned. He also confessed that he borrowed money from a family member, but had never repaid the loan. “It tears me up inside,” he said. “I feel so guilty.” Once he gets everything worked out, his goal is to pay that money back as soon as possible.
Michael explained how he’s hoping to set up a budget; he wants to set money aside for things before buying them. “Plus, I want to pay myself first,” he told me. “I’ve been reading about saving. I want to open a savings account and set aside $400 per month. My wife thinks we should use the money for other stuff, but I really think we should save.”
Old habits
Because Michael is a good friend, I want to help him and his family. (Michael and his wife have two kids.) I’ve been watching for cheap rentals in the Portland area, and even found a house where he could stay for $500 a month (which is incredibly cheap). There are some drawbacks to the place, and I wouldn’t suggest that he and his family stay there long term, but it’d be an awesome temporary home be while they get back on their feet.
“Thanks for finding that place,” Michael told me as he took a bite of mashed potatoes and gravy. “But we’ve decided to rent someplace else. We found a place in Rock Creek for $1300 a month.”
“Wow,” I said. “That seems like a lot.”
“Not really,” he said. “That’s pretty good for similar places in Portland. Plus, it gives us space for our two dogs.”
I sighed inside. Sure, that may be a good price compared to similar houses, but I know there are tons of places to live in Portland for less than $1300 a month — if Michael and his wife are willing to make some sacrifices. I wanted to pursue this line of questioning — What about getting rid of the dogs? Why not look at the $500/month place I found? — but I let it go. You can only argue with your friends so much, right? We moved on to other topics.
Michael mentioned that although his wife is still looking for work, he’s managed to find a job. (He was vague about what the work entailed and how much it paid.) He even has transportation. “I’m borrowing an old beater until I have a chance to buy a new car,” he told me. Michael’s last vehicle belonged to his employer, so he came to town not only homeless and jobless, but carless as well.
“You might want to wait to buy a new car until you’re more sure of your situation,” I said. “There’s nothing wrong with driving an old beater. Heck, where you’ll be living, you could ride the light rail into work.”
“I hadn’t thought of that,” Michael said. And from the way he said it, I could tell he still wasn’t thinking of it. In his mind, he needs a car — and a new one, too.
Further to fall
Before we parted ways, Michael gave me his new cell phone number. “What happened to your old phone?” I asked.
“It was the company’s. I had to give it back,” he said.
“That makes sense,” I said. “What did you get instead? Did you go with a prepaid phone? That’s a great way to save money.”
Michael evaded the question, but when we stood up to leave, I noticed the phone hanging from his belt clip: a brand-new iPhone. Later I learned from a mutual friend that Michael didn’t just buy a new iPhone for himself, but he bought one for his wife and for his 11-year-old son as well. (And he bought his 9-year-old son an iPod Touch so he wouldn’t feel left out.)
This is the part of the story where you now have to imagine a little black squiggle hanging over my head, like in the comic strips. This is the point at which I go from being sympathetic for my friend to judging him — and not favorably.
The mote in my eye
But as I began to silently judge Michael’s choices, I thought of my recent trip to Alaska. I spent ten days on the boat with my neighbor, the “real millionaire next door“, and in those ten days I often felt like I was being judged.
- Before the trip, I bought a $120 backpack at REI. My goal is to use this for much of my travel during the coming years. It fits in an overhead compartment, and is a great way to limit what I carry. John frowned when he saw the new pack and asked, “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?”
- On the first day, Mac and I tore a paper towel in half, and we each used our half as a napkin for several days. Eventually my napkin became grimy and gross, so I went to tear off another half a paper towel. When John saw me, he scolded me and told me I ought to use a cloth towel instead.
- Near the end of the trip, I threw a molding orange overboard. “I wish you hadn’t done that,” John said. “I could have cut out the bad part and eaten the rest.”
- On the last day, I went to the bookstore in Sitka and bought a copy of Bruce Chatwin’s In Patagonia, which I’ve been wanting to read for a long time. (After our trip to France and Italy this year, Kris and I hope to save for a trip to Argentina and Chile in 2012 or 2013.) When John saw I’d bought a new book, he shook his head. “I’ve got a lot of perfectly good books here on board,” he said, indicating his library of old paperbacks.
Throughout the trip, I felt like I was under pressure to, well, be more frugal, to make the same choices John would make. And you know what? That pressure sucked. It felt awful. I didn’t like the feeling of being judged, especially by somebody I look up to.
To judge, or not to judge?
So, I’m torn. As much as I hate to judge others, sometimes I can’t help it — and now I’m judging Michael. He says he wants to change, he says he’s learned his lesson from his bankruptcy, but his actions say otherwise.
He has no savings, no car, no home. His wife is out of work, and he’s only just started a new job himself. Yet he’s decided to rent a $1300 house, is looking to buy a new car, and has signed up for at least $180/month in cell phones. (I’m ignoring the start-up costs of the phones.) These are just the things I know about. Michael is talking the talk, but he’s not walking the walk. (I’m reminded of a previous conversation with another friend.)
I know how tough it can be to change your behavior. I’ve been there before. I used to talk about changing, too, without making any actual change. I’m sure my friends just shook their heads at me. (In fact, I know that some of my friends used to wonder at my foolish choices — they’ve told me so.)
I hope Michael turns things around, but I can’t help but judge his actions right now. And I don’t know how to help him.
Footnote #2: Okay, folks. No need to leave any more “I can’t believe you said that about the dogs” comments. You’ve made your point. In fact, I’m now whipping up an article for Friday where we can spend all day talking about the relationship between dollars and dogs. (And cats.) So, please: Save your pet-related discussion until Friday.
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Look, if you (this “you” is all encompassing)feel bad about being judged than it’s because you honestly concur with the person judging and know that you are not doing your best. But if you feel angry or apathetic than you feel that you are doing your best and should either ignore them or tell them where they can put their judgement. I think judgement is a good thing (exceptions: racism, sexism, fear of other cultures, etc.). It makes people re-evaluate “Am I doing my best? Should I change myself?” And sometimes the answer is that you are in fact doing all you can and you’re good with yourself. So, let people go right on judging. If you’re good with yourself than you have nothing to feel bad about and you can either tell them so or ignore it. In the case of your friend, I would definitely be honest–not preachy, just compassionately honest. If he feels judged (which as we all know is an uncomfortable feeling because it encourages the ever-dreaded self-evaluation that may uncover some soiled spots on our being) than he will either re-evaluate (yay!) or think he’s doing OK (boo!). But at least you tried to help.
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I think it is o.k. to judge Michael because he provided the information you are judging. You have a personal finance blog and published book on the subject…why would he share this information with you if he didn’t want to open up about his finances? I think many people here have it right. Approach the subject, maybe a nice email, explaining how you were once in the same position and can offer some guidance if he would like it. If he doesn’t want your help, he’s probably like the millions of people who feel ENTITLED to the life the advertisers/marketers are selling them – whether or not they can afford it. Michael may never get it but I’m glad – through the help of your blog – that I have!
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I’m new to this blog, but have already made it my home page! I have just recently begun to look hard at my finances, change my spending behaviors, and am now starting to put money away every month. Though I was never as deep in debt as your friend, I do have to say that the book that really made me look hard at my financial life was Rich Dad, Poor Dad. We had it on the shelf for years, and I finally picked it up. Though I can see through some of it, I have to say it did make me shift my perspective. I don’t view it as a to-do book, but it got me interested in reading more about personal finance, which led me here, and to the book list you mentioned. This seems to be the case for several other readers as well. Yes, Kiyosaki is a salesman first, but if it helps change the way we think about money, that’s a valid start, no? And David Bach? Thoughts?
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It’s hard to see people you care about make what you think are bad choices, but it’s their life, not yours. Ultimately those choices have nothing to do with you.
Your friend John sounds kind of naggy. I know he would get on my nerves at least.
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JD, I LOVE columns that focus on real-life people and their lives…positive and negative. Please do more of these!
There are plenty of Michaels in the world. Hopefully the current financial situation is influencing more than a few to change. Hopefully your friend will get the message, too, before he hits total rock-bottom.
Brother and I grew up on a farm, with little money. We started out working early, and helped pay our way through college. (Getting grants and scholarships helped.) We couldn’t do a ‘Michael’ if our lives depended on it.
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I almost wonder if I know your friend. The person I know does all the same stuff and always says he’s going to change and do better but never does. I always wonder what the heck is going on in people’s minds. Who do they think they’re fooling? I don’t have an iPhone yet the guy I know has one for himself and his wife, his young kids have cell phones, and he lost his house in foreclosure.
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I’m currently in a very similar situation with some close friends. They just recently declared bankruptcy after a series of bad financial decisions that left them broke with no way to dig out.
I want to help my friends, point them in the right direction, help them put together a budget, etc, but every time that sort of thing is even mentioned, their eyes just glaze over. They don’t seem to want to change.
A few weeks after declaring bankruptcy, what do my friends do? They go on a week long vacation to the Disney Theme Parks in Orlando, Fl. When they got back they told us about all the things that they had done, and then proceeded to show us the hundreds of dollars in souvenirs they had bought at the gift shops.
Sometimes people would rather live with their head in the sand, and even bankruptcy isn’t truly rock bottom. Living in debt and on the edge seems normal, and our society is making it seem more and more acceptable with every passing year. *sigh.
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@ Melissa A., yes, John definitely sounds a bit naggy – but I would put up with quite a bit for a week on someone’s boat!
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Every single person on earth judges and anyone who sits up here and pretends that they dont..ask yourself this: How do you feel about people who judge? lol (You’ll get that in an hour or two)
I agree with the commenters who said that its cirumstantial in regards to how your apply your judgement. If your friend is asking for help or you can see that they really need help but don’t know how to ask for it, then a good friend WILL help them out of their situation without regard for loss of friendship. If your neighbor is forcing his views on you and you arent in dire financial straights and you’re happy then thats a whole other beast…
http://ThisIsWhyUBroke.com
“Because planning to be a Walmart greeter is not exactly retirement planning”
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I feel free to make suggestions if people are complaining to me about money. However, if they are not, then I keep my mouth shut. It sounds to me like that is the difference between the situation between you and your neighbor and the situation between you and Michael.
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Eh, your neighbor is great guy, but has slightly different standards and needs than you. He points things out because he wants to demonstate how he got where he was. I get this from my depression era in laws and parents who mean well. They made a lot of sacrifices in ways I’ll never understand to have the comfortable retirement they have now. I think your neighbor wanted to convey this in the only way he knew how. Thank your neighbor for the experience and ignore the minor criticisms.
I’ve started to make the sacrifices myself and it is hard to to see people take things for granted
With your friend, you went above and beyond and he knows you’re a resource. He hasn’t woken up yet.
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Here is a possibility with the house:
With a kid, perhaps there was a good school to go to or if he lived in a different area of town he might have to switch schools, which would be tough right after moving. Although if I were in his situation I would probably still have to consider it.
But the phones? Unforgivable.
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Okay, I know we’re not supposed to be talking about the remark about the dogs, but that’s like saying, “Don’t think about pink elephants.” I was even nice to the couple who spent $30K on their pet with cancer.
HOWEVER.
Animals ARE a commitment, but finding a good home for a pet is not “cruel.” If you cannot afford to keep an animal (note that homeless people don’t have to pay pet rents or deposits) in a way you feel comfortable, by all means GET RID OF THE PET. Yes, I said “GET RID OF”, I am so callous, I cannot believe that I, who have rescued countless animals and headed up the spay, neuter and return program for my neighborhood would be so incredibly cruel, but there it is.
People die. Pets die. This is the cycle of life. Keeping a pet you cannot afford is, in my opinion, more cruel than giving the animal a good home. We do not condone families who keep too many children in squalid conditions — no, we remove those children. If you equate humans with animals (not as less OR more) then a family who has a pet they cannot afford has a moral responsibility to find a good home for that pet. THAT INCLUDES “FREE TO GOOD HOME” ADS ON CRAIGSLIST.
Talk about judging! In an article about throwing stones, a lot of people dinged JD on being irritated with his irresponsible friend, yet turned around and left scathing remarks about his suggestion to re-home an animal.
I love animals, have sacrificed for animals, have volunteered to care for them, clean cages, even trimmed poop-incrusted burrs from strays, but animals have needs that are DIFFERENT from humans. Indeed, some animals cannot exist with a single owner — desert turtles and many kinds of birds MUST have multiple owners, because their lifespan is greater than ours.
I’m sorry for the rant, JD, but I’m sick of all this judgmental crap about animals. I’d like both sides — the “I can’t believe they spent that on an animal” side and the “Adopting an animal is a lifelong contract” side” — to shut up and head to the nearest shelter, adopt an animal and never talk about it again.
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This is what I like about you JD
You’re slow to act…in a good way. I would have probably just jumped out and said something nasty that would have hurt my friend & our friendship. I like the fact that you take the time to not only examine what’s going on in your friends life, but in yours as well =)
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Hi there, JD,
I’ve been a regular reader for years now. I keep track of my expenses better and cut down many of my costs, thanks to this blog. Really, a big thank you. (I still spend more than my steady income so I still need to do freelance jobs. But I’m on my way.)
So I feel a bit with your friend because it’s really hard to change one’s lifestyle and it takes time. OTOH I know it’s doable, but I doubt any of your advice will work for him, as he doesn’t seem yet to be ready for it.
Give him your book, pat his shoulder and let him work it out himself…
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@ Raina – “It’s very sad that many of these relinquished pets have been euthanized, but it’s always possible to drop the animals off at a rescue or no-kill shelter. ” Just FYI, I think that depends on the area. I used to run a rescue nfp for 5 years and work at a national animal welfare agency now and I can assure you nationally not everyone has that option, although I wish they did. A lot of times it’s a kill shelter only and I’ve worked with rescuers who feel like crap that their home is filled with foster animals, they can’t afford to foster any more and their options are either the kill-shelter or stay on the street because all the smaller or bricks-and-mortar no-kill groups are full to capacity (limited intake is how they usually remain a “no-kill”).
@ Missy – I think would agree with you – while I consider MY adoptions hopefully a lifetime agreement, I know that’s not always possible. I think the issue here is that this person has so much “fat” to cut and has not expressed any interest in getting rid of his pets, and suggested through commentary that he was hoping to accommodate them – why suggest something that touchy, with no disclaimer?
I’m sure JD didn’t mean it as a flame-attractor but I have to admit when I saw the comment I thought, “Wow, that’s 200 comments in the making!”
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I was telling some family members about the dangers of their spending habits months ago. I must have said it the right way, because they are now asking me for help, and they take the truth from me pretty seriously. I hope that in the next stage, they are actually financially healthy, and they can share their financial insights with me. We will see, there is a lot of time ahead of them, and I’ve already spent a lot of energy focusing on this.
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Well, obviously tons of thoughts here, so I’ll just be brief. JD, in this case, you are an expert. Now, that doesn’t give you any right to start demanding things from this guy, but if he’s really wanting help, you are a wonderful choice for giving advice. The worst form of “judging” like this is when it comes from someone who has no credibility.
Like another poster wrote, you should give him a copy of your book. . .or, more likely, you have and yet he won’t read it.
Regardless, you must maintain boundaries. I am the pastor of a church and as such, I have worked with people for years. I am not even close to the typical mindset of a pastor; in fact some get mad because I DO NOT give out much advice in these situations. Oh, trust me, I can talk (look how long my short post has become) and I will advise people all the time, but I keep boundaries. Once it is clear that a person isn’t really interested in proper help (3 iPhones?? Please!!!), then I just back off.
By the way, Joshua Wheeler (#79 above) nailed it relative to judgment. Well said, friend–well said.
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I haven’t read through all the comments yet, so forgive me if this has been said already, but your neighbor doesn’t have the right to impose his choices on you, nor make you feel guilty for doing so. I’m sure there are people he’s met who think he wastes money by owning a home and not living in a tiny studio apartment and dumpster diving for his meals (I’ve talked to these people).
I’ve had people tell me proudly that no one needs a better car than theirs while looking at my Mercedes, and then go on to tell me about all the timeshares they’ve picked up on the cheap, while I’m thinking I’d never come out ahead paying all the thousands of dollars in maintenance/fees associated with timeshares.
I think it’s really a matter of people wanting justification for the choices they make, whether it’s your bankrupt iPhone friend or your eat-around-the-mold-on-the-orange friend. If you’re not already doing exactly what they do (instant justification), they have to get you to accept their choices some other way. By the way, I do cut around the mold on cheese and eat the good part, and cut around apples, but I don’t think even I could eat a partially rotten orange.
Part of a lasting relationship involves understanding what it’s like to be in the other person’s shoes and respecting their self-determination, even if they choose to do some foolish things or ignore your advice, even when solicited. I don’t know about iPhone Friend, but Rotten Orange Man sounds like he’s a bit lonely and I can see why.
I think iPhone Friend will appreciate your patience and respect for him in the long run, even if he never gets his financial house in order and continues to say, “Wow, I wish I could be like you.”
Finally, I rarely have rotten fruit around, as I buy just what I need because it kills me to throw it away, but in case I do, may I send it to you to give to your neighbor?
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Thanks for the great article, J.D. I think it really hits on what I think is one of the most important (and most overlooked) parts of money–the emotional and social problems that can sometimes come along with it.
This article really hit home because the situation you described with your friend really parallels that of my mother. Currently, she’s 55 years old, and gets about $1,100 of spousal support from my father. Keep in mind my parents have been very messily divorcing each other for 7 years now, in which time they have spent over $300,000 on lawyer fees. Unfortunately for me and my younger brother, this leaves us both in trouble for college (I might not be able to finish my last two years at Lewis & Clark College, and my brother’s choices will probably be very limited due to a lack of money). Yet my mom STILL spends in the same way she did before her income was so drastically reduced. I encouraged her to check out foods banks, to NOT shop at Whole Foods for a month and try a grocery outlet, to cut off the cable, but she just isn’t ready to hear the message, as you said in the article.
The worst part of the situation is that it doesn’t seem as though it will change any time soon, and there’s no way to make my advice heard. Yet I can’t help but think that, at 20 years old, I have some valuable information that she could really use.
Do you know of any tips for talking with those close to you (friends or family) about issues like these when they become a serious problem? I don’t want to feel the pressure of having to support my mother while barely scraping by myself, and I do’t want to feel the guilt from letting her deal with her problems on her own because she’s family.
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“Do dogs really think and feel? Do they love? Or do they react (Pavlov)?”
That’s really a false dichotomy, since humans also develop Pavlovian responses to repeated stimuli, and they also think, feel, and love. That these things are mutually exclusive is a false assumption.
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Aren’t we always judging what we see? Isn’t that what the human mind does? It’s just when you choose to vocalize the judgment and when you hold it in that make the difference, and how you go about it. I don’t see the point of holding back some serious advice from a friend who’s seriously in trouble (is he your friend or not!?). I generally point out stupid things I’ve done so the other person doesn’t feel like they’re the only one making mistakes. The difference with the neighbor is that all he had to complain about were little things – but those little things had, nonetheless, made him a millionaire when taken altogether. That’s just mildly irritating, but the bankruptcy friend sounds like he needs a good talking to – or else no more free lunches
(P.S. I used to cut mold out of foods until I learned that the mold spores go a lot deeper than you can see, so you’re better off chucking it.)
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You may not judge. Ever.
However I think there is less stress and teeth gnashing when you are not putting yourself out to give assistance.
No need to feel you should pay for dinner, if he can pay for smart phone plans times three then he can buy himself a meal.
No need to spend your valuable time looking for something like cheap housing – he’s not interested one tiny bit.
The list should be longer – you know more than I what you might or might consider doing – but it will bother you less.
Of course I’ve got one of those friends too – so that’s how I know LOL.
One side note? If you have kids and dogs – giving away a dog is really not much of an option. Even if you found a wonderful home I can guarantee I’d have to be really close to the bone to give up the family pet – the kids would feel so unstable in a situation like that I shudder to think of it.
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JD – ever think about offering to foster his dogs for him?
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“It takes what it takes.” That is a common saying among people in rehab and intervention programs. You can rarely talk people into seeing things you’re way and realizing the destructive path they’re on until they are ready to listen and realize the path they are on is hopeless. It doesn’t sound like your friend is ready to listen. If he ask for your opinion or advice be frank and honest and speak of your experiences, but don’t expect to gain a GRS convert.
Regarding your neighbor and your trip, it isn’t a fair comparison. You have put your financial house in order so to speak. Your neighbor was inflicting his life style of frugality on you, hoping that you would buy in or recognize its value. Obviously you don’t see the need (nor do I) and will choose to live your life differently. Unless of course life takes you to a point where you decide that’s what it will take. . . . . .
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Some people find that just admitting they have a problem is the solution.
They won’t take any further steps to correct their situation(s). In their minds they “tried” simply because they spoke about it.
I hope this isn’t the case with your friend, though.
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Aren’t vacations supposed to be fun, relaxing and restorative? You should not come home feeling badly about yourself and every little choice you made. What kind of friend judges and criticizes for not using half a paper towel long enough? Please. Your friend is ridiculous, and I would never travel with him again. Maybe Michael would like to hang out on the boat. Now THAT would be hysterical.
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I used to be a weight loss counselor. People would tell me they wanted to lose weight, but were unwilling to do anything it would take to accomplish that goal, i.e., give up sweets, exercise, etc. Still, they would complain about all the reasons they couldn’t lose. Just because a friend asks your advice doesn’t mean they have to take it. If it bothers you that they ask your advice and then don’t use it, then refuse to give advice. Maybe he just likes having someone to talk to. Not everyone wants their problems solved. I think if we’re bothered that much by someone’s behavior, maybe it’s time to limit our involvement with that person. As far as your other “friend,” I would have been extremely uncomfortable in that situation and probably would not want to spend a lot of time with him, if any. His behavior seems a little over the top to me. If you can afford your purchases, then you are entitled to them, period. Still, it was a good lesson for you in how your #1 friend might feel about your judging him.
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A friend was using the Ponzi scheme to pay off his credit cards. $100,000 credit card debt eventually was resettled to $25,000, which he paid off.
Now that he’s making more money, he went and bought a new car. He wanted a Denali but got something similar. He said his payments are under $500/month.
I watch how he fritters away money, and I keep quiet. When we’re in a bar, he orders the most expensive drink and tells me he’ll pay me back. Never happens.
Maybe this isn’t a good friendship.
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This is what I would say about judging others: You unconsciously make judgments all the time and don’t give it a second thought. It’s called instinct. Judging others and situations helps keep us safe.
When we make a judgment and then feel guilty about it, it could be that we see something in another person that we don’t want ourselves to become (or already think we are). It is more of the shame we feel about ourselves and our own situation than it is a true “judgment” of the other person.
J.D., I think you feel guilty for recognizing that your friend hasn’t learned anything because you fear that you haven’t learned anything (which is why your neighbor’s well-meaning comments stung you).
Just look at your friend for who he is now, not who he was or could be. Is this someone who mirrors your beliefs and goals? Is it someone you would feel comfortable sharing success with? If not, maybe it is time to move on.
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Adopting a dog is making a life long commitment. They are intelligent family animals who usually do not recover from being abandoned. Further, suggesting the friend dump the dogs encourages the kind of unresponsible behavior you supposedly are advocating against. Moreover, it is just mean.
Since my dog is helpless in the world without me and I voluntarily took on the responsibility of caring for her, I would feed my dog before I fed myself. There are plenty of low cost rental places that except dogs. I spend almost nothing feeding my dog, as she eats what I eat.
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The difference between you and Michael is that you have money and he doesn’t. You don’t have debt, you make wise choices in regards to how you spend your money and you have savings. He has none of those things. As for the real millionaire – the beauty of being frugal is to save money in certain areas so that you can spend in others. For instance we pinch and save everywhere we can so we can pay for expensive gymnastics training for my daughter. Many people probably think we are crazy. As long as we aren’t going into debt to do this everything is fine.
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There is a major difference between Michael’s situation and yours. Michael is being reckless, and his decisions cause financial and emotional strain on those around him.
You, on the other hand, are being practical. “What’s wrong with a duffel bag from Goodwill?” What the heck is wrong with a $120 backpack from REI? Maybe you didn’t think through all of your options, but you clearly reasoned that you would get continued use out of it and decided that it was worth it to you. It’s not leading you to financial ruin. Your friend John doesn’t sound like much fun to hang out with.
Let’s have some perspective here. Yes, there’s more to life than spending money, but there’s also more to life than pinching every penny. Sometimes I wonder if that’s all this blog is about.
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I think it’s human nature to judge others, but we don’t have to express that judgment to them. You experienced your friend John expressing his judgment of you. How did it make you feel? Did it give you any sort of desire to make life changes, or did it just make you resent John? I suspect the latter. Your friend Michael clearly isn’t ready to ask for help. You can still offer it, but odds are he’s not ready to accept it either. Further, if in offering it, you let him know you’re judging him, you probably guarantee he won’t feel comfortable coming to you if/when he is ready to ask for and accept help. I would suggest simply emailing Michael a lot of blog posts (preferably not yours so he won’t see this one) about financial strategies more suited to his current life situation than Rich Dad Poor Dad.
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When we truly embrace the idea of living frugally and realize just how much we don’t need, it’s like a huge financial burden is lifted from our shoulders. Once this change comes over us, we find it difficult not to hurt for people who just don’t get it yet. Michael is one of those people. We don’t need to judge him. However, I for one can’t help feeling sorry for the misfortunes that he could avoid. In turn someone like John, who has learned to be even more frugal, may look on me with the same pity
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I think the most important thing to remember is to not loan him any money!
Rather than talking about what is going wrong, I’d like to offer a suggestion:
I would completely ignore any behavior you feel is unhealthy on his part. If he comments on his new iPhone, you could say “Oh, that’s nice…” and change the subject instead of making a negative or judgmental remark. He’ll get the hint. Instead, invite him to participate in a free exercise activity with you. Maybe ask him to be your running or hiking buddy. There’s something about exercise that feeds your soul – and it sounds like his soul is hurting. It also might reduce his anxiety enough to slow down and appreciate all the wonderful parts of life that don’t cost anything (indeed, the most wonderful things almost never do). And that might help him make some changes.
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JD, I know you would prefer we all save our pet comments for Friday’s post, but I’m bringing this up here because I legitimately hope you address these issues in your post…
I think I understand what you were trying to say in your post – that if he’s legitimately paying $800 more per month to rent a place because of the dogs it may be time to find another home for them. I get that. BUT…
If a person places their pet in someone else’s home, that is one less animal adopted out of a shelter (assuming the family who takes the pet would have gone to the shelter). In essence, giving your pet away may save your pet’s life, but it almost certainly condemns an animal in a shelter to death. And that’s not right. Millions of animals are euthanized every year.
And to the person who said the pets should be taken to no kill shelters, MANY people do not have that option. The nearest three shelters to my home are kill shelters.
I’ve personally gone without eating so I could afford my cat’s food before. I took on their care when I adopted them, the same way I would have if I adopted children. Michael obviously has MANY issues beyond his pets. He could cut out the expensive rent, the iPhones, cable, etc. before he cut his pets from his life. Obviously, if it’s down to, “Well, either the pets can eat this week or the kids can,” I think he should put the needs of his children first. But he shouldn’t consider “getting rid of” the dogs until he absolutely has to.
I hope you also address how relatively cheap a healthy pet is to care for. My cats (I have two.) cost about $80 a year in vet bills. Their food is $13 a month, along with $10 for cat litter. You can donate plasma every two weeks and have enough to take care of two cats. I know dogs are quite a bit more expensive, but we shouldn’t misrepresent how inexpensive pets are compared to our luxuries.
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I learned when I moved away from home that there is a line between complaining and whining. Complaining usually happens once or twice. Whining is repetitive and passive. Michael is so far into the whining side, that he can’t see the line anymore. There might be a lot of reasons he isn’t ready to deal with money responsibly, most of which have been discussed already. That’s not judgmental; it’s based on observing his behavior towards you.
My response to whiners is “I’ve heard you talk about this before. I will be happy to help you and share what I’ve learned when you’re ready.” Usually, the conversation is left behind, never to be raised again. But, sometimes, it can be the necessary hint that it’s time to act. As I tell my son when he doesn’t like being reminded about housework — “I know, I know!”, “I don’t care what you KNOW; I care what you do.”
And the anti-whining stance works for me, too; if I catch myself complaining to the same person twice about the same darn thing, it’s time to do something. Stop playing the victim, and try to make things at least different, if not better.
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Quote: “One side note? If you have kids and dogs – giving away a dog is really not much of an option. Even if you found a wonderful home I can guarantee I’d have to be really close to the bone to give up the family pet – the kids would feel so unstable in a situation like that I shudder to think of it.”
Interesting. I better start saving now for the therapy bills that my kids will surely incur. We found a skinny stray kitten and rescued it, fed it, adopted it, got all it’s shots, then a week later moved to another country with it. My kids LOVE this cat. For two months my daughter coughed herself sick every night, and ended up being allergic to the cat, so we had to “get rid of it”. Children are rational human beings ~ we can talk to them to explain and help them understand. Luckily we can still visit him when we go home – my sister now has him.
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First of all I think its never OK to judge. You may see how you would handle the situation your friend is in..but that isn’t the only way. Also unless you are supporting him and his family, leave your thoughts to yourself. Alao don’t try and make money off of his problem by putting it on your blog where I am sure you make money.
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To Mike @179.
Why are you paying for his drinks more than once?
I had a friend who used to ‘forget’ to pay me back or ‘forget’ her wallet when we went out. I was really sick of it at this stage and when she asked me to pay for a whole outfit for her and she’d pay me back because she ‘forgot’ her wallet, I said no. I had deliberately left my wallet at home, showed her my bag and guess what, she magically found a credit card in her pocket.
Ever since then I have said no when she asks for money, we are still close friends, but I no longer feel resentful.
I don’t think that yours is an equal friendship at this stage.
S
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@163 Missy
“People die. Pets die. This is the cycle of life.” Um no that’s not really how it works. It’s more like huge amounts of pure bred / designer pets are bred in factory settings to meet market demand for”cute and cuddly” animals and then a percentage of them are gassed in shelters each year.
“Animals have needs that are DIFFERENT from humans. Indeed, some animals cannot exist with a single owner — desert turtles and many kinds of birds MUST have multiple owners, because their lifespan is greater than ours.”
Say what? Maybe another way to look at it is that we should not be “owning” these types of animals. I mean, shouldn’t a desert turtle actually be in the desert not a glass tank?
One more thing, people want to think we are so different (read – better than) than animals. In reality animals respond to the environment much like we do. Culture, personality, tool use, emotions, insight into the mind of another, and personality were all thought to be uniquely human and have all been disproved.
Yes JD I saw where you asked 3 TIMES to stop with the animals but sorry you can’t just turn it off!
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Judging other people in my opinion wastes time. It could be better spent finding solutions for other people, or better yet, concentrating on your own life.
It is difficult “not” to judge, but can be done with a little restraint, practice, and maturity.
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Pets aside, I’m wondering what all the people who focused on one statement thought of the actual post?
I particularly liked the extra awareness John gave JD… even if was annoying, it still makes you think.
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No offense to any of you, but many of you simply do not understand the difference between correction and judgment. A judgment is what a judge engages in: issuing a verdict for a behavior, whereas correction is what a jury does – guilty or not guilty. You, as a person, can determine whether a person’s actions are immoral/moral, right/wrong, but to say, “because your actions are immoral, you will go into bankruptcy” would be issuing a judgment. None of us know what the result of wrong behavior will lead to because many variables can affect anyone’s situation and make it much different than our own.
Now of course passing judgment is a call that only you can make – some people see judging as immoral since we are all imperfect. But to simply look at behavior as right or wrong, and to point it out is reproof and mentoring – assisting another person to see poor behavior he may not recognize. Wise people grow through reproof and mentoring; many of us would not succeed in many areas had we not received some guidelines over what is right or wrong in various areas of our life (like finance).
As Solomon says, “Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you” (Proverbs 9:8).
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I like that you saw the similarities between your interactions with your two friends. And at many levels your justification for your $120 backpack is like Michael’s justification for a more expensive car or the higher rent house.
You are buying quality to avoid the hassles of your backpack falling apart while traveling. He could say buying a new car avoids the problems of a car breaking down and the attendance hassle. Getting the better house keeps him from having to move twice, uproot the children, etc. The reality is that being frugal can be a hassle and certainly takes more time and energy than just buying whatever best fits your actual or perceived needs right when you want it.
You are buying the backpack in anticipation of a need for the future aka using future plans as a justification for spending more than strictly necessary. You are arguing that quality construction, comfort/ease of use and functionality makes the $120 backpack a better fit and ultimately a better value for you than a cheap Goodwill backpack. Michael could argue that a non-beater car or the nicer house better fit his needs for the same reason.
(Of course, the difference is that Michael may be buying a car on credit and owes other people and institutions $$ but the logic is the same.)
People have different limits on how far they will go for frugal. John is willing to eat moldy fruit – he judges the value of saving that money as more useful than avoiding the small risk of illness.
Michael wants what he perceives as a safe home for his family above being debt free.
It’s just a matter of scale and where your personal limits are.
Kudos to you for seeing that.
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I don’t know if the issue is about judging so much as it is about having good old-fashioned manners. You were polite to Michael, even if you disagreed with his choices. Your neighbor was rude to you, and you were his guest. So, don’t get hung up on whether or not you were judging someone or you were being judged. We all have disagreements, don’t see things eye-to-eye. A mark of character is in how well you handle yourself when disagreements occur. Sounds like you showed good character while with Michael, even if you don’t agree with his choices. Be his friend, let him see how you live your life, and maybe he will want to emulate you eventually. With your neighbor, just let his comments roll of you, and be sure to carry along a bandana so you have something to wipe your hands on. He sounds like some of my relatives, who just have to be right no matter what the issue is.
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I’ve been thinking about this post since yesterday and thinking through my reaction to it. I understand what J.D. is struggling with, but honestly I find it quite disappointing.
Here’s where I’m struggling with it – I was initially drawn to this site because I was where Micheal is now. I identified with J.D. because he admitted that he was once there as well and so I felt welcome and unjudged to join this community. As I read posts on the blog and in the forums, I slowly felt hope rise in me that I could change my own bad habits. And while I still have a long way to go, I’m more in control of my finances than I have ever been and am working my way out of debt. Honestly, if I felt like anybody had judged like that, I very likely would not have continued to read this blog.
Drawing a parallel: J.D. – you’ve talked about being overweight. But if every time you went out with friends to eat, they commented on what you ordered or gave you exercise tips, you likely wouldn’t want to continue to spend time with them. Even if they don’t say anything to you, what if you felt like your friend was disgusted by your body in a bathing suit when you went to the beach together. You would be incredibly hurt. Sometimes you have to accept where a person is at and just be there to support them when they ask for it. If you can’t deal with it or respect them as a whole person, better you not spend time with them than make them feel even worse.
J.D. – My advice is to not forget from whence you came yourself. It has taken YEARS of SLOWLY building good habits for you to arrive at your success. It’s likely going to take your friend a long time as well. Be patient, model good habits, and perhaps avoid situations or conversations related to money in the meantime. For example, knowing his situation why not ask him to lunch at your house instead of going out to eat and spending money? If he starts to ask your advice and you feel like he’s not listening, why not refer him to a financial advisor or specific book and just say that you don’t feel comfortable given your relationship and then change the subject?
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I am looking forward to the dog post on Friday!
I will share with you the same exercise my husband practices before every visit to his brother… Nod your head sympathetically, over and over. Mutter “Mmmm hmmm. Mmmm hmmm. I’m so sorry to hear that.” Lather, rinse repeat.
Judge him all you want. If you want to keep him in your life, then accept that even if he asks for your advice he isn’t ready to listen. Keep the advice to yourself.
As to your neighbor, I think it is great that he is happy to share his techniques with you. You are on the same road, just using slightly different vehicles.
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i think it’s a little ironic you say ‘rich dad poor dad’ is a terrible book, while linking to it with your amazon affiliate id
(i.e. making money if someone buys it from amazon using your link.)
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