This guest post from Shara is part of the “reader stories” feature here at Get Rich Slowly. Some stories contain general “how I did X” advice; others are examples of how a GRS reader achieved financial success — or failure. These stories feature folks from all levels of financial maturity and with all sorts of incomes.
J.D.’s note: Over the past couple of months, I’ve shared a couple of reader stories that involve bankruptcy or otherwise walking away from debts. Though these options are all “part of the game”, they don’t sit well with many GRS readers. In response, Shara offered to share her story, which shows the other side of bankruptcy — what it’s like for the creditor.
After college, my husband and I bought a house in a normal middle-class neighborhood. Two years later, we decided we wanted to move out of the city, and instead of selling the house, we decided to rent it out.
We did a lot of math and research, and decided we could both trade up the house we were living in and support a rental, even if the rental wound up vacant for an extended period of time. We didn’t feel like we knew everything, but we were comfortable getting started. We signed up with a landlord service to check credit and background, and then took in our first tenant.
We made a number of mistakes the first couple years. We were young and expected people to be honest. I believed that, on the whole, people want to do the right thing. I still think that’s true, but watching the mental gymnastics some people go through, I now believe they have an endless capacity for making “the right thing” happen to be whatever is best for them.
Every tenant has done something that’s cost me money:
- Left major damage (stepped in the sprinkler box breaking every pipe).
- Taken off without notice (legally you still have to go through eviction if they didn’t give notice).
- Acquired pets that weren’t in their lease and caused damage (you have to decide: is it worth evicting over a dog?)
- Taken things from the property that weren’t theirs to take.
But that’s the name of the game. I wasn’t shocked to be left holding the bag on more than one occasion. It’s business. But this isn’t a story about landlording — it’s a story about bankruptcy.
Peter and Tara
In the summer and fall of 2008, the rental market started getting soft. I had a tenant leave without notice at the end of summer, and we couldn’t find a renter. We found a family who wanted the house, but they didn’t have good credit.
In hindsight, we shouldn’t have rented to them. Their credit was bad. There were red flags. But there are red flags with most people; renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect. Their references were very good, and they had supposedly never missed a rent payment. They claimed to be in the middle of bankruptcy caused by a business venture that had gone south. I knew the law that post-bankruptcy they would be on the hook for years until they could file again. We took a calculated risk because we thought the worst that was likely to happen was that they wouldn’t pay their rent and we’d have to evict them and support a house payment for up to two months.
Peter and Tara moved in with their kids (and undisclosed dogs) in September. As we were signing the lease, they explained that they only had about one-third of the deposit, but they were waiting to get their deposit back from their previous place. Though this raised a flag, we agreed they could pay it with the next month’s rent.
For each of the first couple months, they paid a couple of days late each time. They never made up the deposit, though each time it was promised next time, I understood that work was slow. Peter worked in low-level construction (landscape, re-stucco, that kind of stuff), and as it was getting to be late fall we let it slide.
In December, they didn’t pay. We got a story that his work for the month had been financed through a larger plumbing company and they hadn’t paid him yet. My husband and I decided we weren’t likely to find renters the week before Christmas, and we didn’t want to stress out the family with kids at the holiday, so we were going to give them until the last week of December to pay. They paid off December’s rent on the 24th. They dragged out January, finally paying 75% of it on the 28th. In my experience, once someone is a month behind they won’t make it back, and it’s actually kinder to cut them off than let them keep sinking: When they weren’t able to come up with the balance for January, we filed for eviction on the 8th of February.
We got a court hearing for February 27. The judge nicely heard our argument and asked Peter if he disputed it. He didn’t. The judge asked Peter if he had anything to add, and Peter said, “Yes. I filed for bankruptcy on the 11th.” (That was the day he was served with eviction papers.) With that, the judge looked at us and said there was nothing he could do. The next step for us was to go to the federal bankruptcy court down the block to attend the creditor meeting on the paperwork Peter provided.
Behind the scenes with bankruptcy
For those of you unfamiliar with bankruptcy, let me provide some basics.
When someone files bankruptcy, they get what is called an Automatic Stay. This means they have protection against collection of any debts accrued before the date of file, and includes any repossession or eviction proceedings. Peter and Tara had been living in our house rent-free for six weeks, and not only could we not collect the money, we couldn’t get our house back. But if Peter had turned to us and said, “By the way the toilet is leaking”, we’d have a legal obligation to go fix the toilet and couldn’t even ask when they were going to pay the rent. Had we done so, it would have been considered harassment, and we’d have been in violation of federal bankruptcy code and then they could have sued us. Not likely, but possible.
Here’s the general schedule of a bankruptcy:
- After a bankruptcy is filed, there’s also a meeting of creditors. This is set at least 30 days out from date-of-file to allow the debtor time to collect and submit their paperwork.
- After that, there’s a period where creditors can dispute the claims.
- And after that, the bankruptcy is typically discharged and the process is at a conclusion 7-10 weeks after date of file.
- Also, bankruptcy is in federal court while eviction is in county court. These courts don’t talk to each other; they don’t share information. They’re physically separated and are both “court” like an elementary and university are both “schools”.
When bankruptcy is filed ,the stay is for old debt, but since Peter and Tara were in the house, they still needed to pay current rent. So, a few days after March 1, when they were late on currently due rent, I sent them a late notice, and when they didn’t pay I petitioned the court for a rehearing.
In the meantime, we attended the creditor meeting on March 11. When we showed up, there was no one there for Peter and Tara’s bankruptcy — not even Peter and Tara. The lady who was running the hearings said that no paperwork had been submitted beyond the original filing. Furthermore, Peter and Tara were not eligible for bankruptcy. They still had five months to go before their last bankruptcy was old enough to allow for a new filing. It looked like they had filed for bankruptcy so they could intentionally steal rent from us. They spent $450 to file bankruptcy in order to stay in my house for free until it was dismissed (at least six weeks). The federal government had found nearly a dozen things wrong with Peter and Tara’s bankruptcy filing, so the court was moving to dismiss. The information was staggering, but we were happy because we could now get our house back.
Kafkaesque
We went to the scheduled eviction hearing on March 29. I read the bankruptcy law itself, which I interpreted to say that the automatic stay that barred us from evicting Peter and Tara was only for debt incurred before date of filing.
I told the judge: “Yes, Your Honor, there is nothing to the bankruptcy. The federal government is dismissing the filing. Plus, we have the documentation that they are late on their current rent and can be evicted for that alone.”
The judge replied: “I am not a bankruptcy judge, and I don’t have the documentation. Go back to the federal court and bring me the papers.”
So, we drove a mile-and-a-half down the road to the federal courthouse. They didn’t have any record of a bankruptcy dismissal. We should come back later. At this point, we called a bankruptcy attorney. He answered a few questions for free and said he would file for a “Release of Stay” (removing us from the order of inaction) for $400.
At each point in this process, we learned more.
We didn’t know we could file for a Release of Stay, or we would have as soon as Peter and Tara’s rent was late in March. We asked the attorney about the dismissal, and he said he would call the courthouse to check on it. He called us back the next day. The movement for dismissal had been sitting on someone’s desk for a couple of weeks (since well before our eviction hearing). He was able to talk to the right person and get it stamped and put in the computer in ten minutes. We could now evict.
With copies of the paperwork in hand, we once again petitioned to have our eviction reheard. We finally got on the docket for the end of April.
The judge heard our case and ordered Peter and Tara out of the house. He gave them three days, the minimum allowed by law.
Three days passed — and they were still in the house.
At this point, Peter and Tara were in violation of the court order, but there was nothing we could do ourselves. We had to go back to the courthouse and file to “induce a Writ of Eviction”. In other words, we needed further court documentation that we were allowed to call the Sheriff for removal.
The clerks were horrified that we were kicking people out of their home. I think after the judge tells people to leave, most people actually do. But they were underestimating our tenants! With scandalized looks and a couple sidelong glances, the clerks did the paperwork and handed it back. Then the Writ of Eviction was taken across town again to be filed with the County Sheriff for a physical removal.
The law wins?
On May 14, we met the Sheriff at the house to find the tenants finally packing to move. The law said we had to give them a full work day to get their stuff moved. We agreed that May 14 was it, changed the locks, and asked the deputy to look around (in case they did malicious damage).
After the deputy left, Tara chewed me out for embarrassing her and said, because of it, she wouldn’t pay the water bill. When I informed her that after not having paid rent in four months, I didn’t exactly expect her to pay the water bill, her response was, “Peter didn’t pay the rent, not me.” Uh…what? This goes back to the mental gymnastics people go through to determine “the right thing”: She had been living in my house without paying rent since mid January, but since paying rent was her husband’s responsibility, she was entitled to righteous indignation (and now she could take the high road and not pay for half a year worth of water! How fortunate for her).
We returned to the house to find it unlocked, the garage door open, trash stacked six feet high in the garage, and everything of value we’d left for the house (paint, tools, replacement fixtures) gone.
Not surprised, we called the police, who said that since the door was left open, we had no way to prove who took our things. Therefore, they wouldn’t even call Peter and Tara to ask if they knew what happened to our stuff. (Yes, I know leaving stuff there was stupid, which I told my husband well before this. He finally learned his lesson, and now keeps things for the rental in our garage).
Four months, six days off work, $6000 in rent, $850 in water, $150 in court costs, two trips to the dump, a week of cleaning, and $300 of stolen stuff later, we finally had our house back. It took thirteen trips to a courthouse (either county or federal), which wound up costing us about a half day of vacation every ten days.
We turned the house over to a rental management company because we decided they earn their keep with one eviction. My husband chose one with a lot of units that we saw at court every time we were there. With jobs, a kid, and my husband in school, it wasn’t possible to be as responsive as we needed to be. And the time commitment of a bad eviction like this one is severely draining when you have other responsibilities.
Creditors have a face
I didn’t write this story to whine and complain. I know this is part of doing business. Peter and Tara weren’t stealing from me because they didn’t like me; they simply saw themselves as victims of the world, and they were taking from someone they saw as able to afford it — their own little story of Robin Hood. They had the need, and we had the means.
When people speak of bankruptcy, they usually speak of the debtor in human terms and the creditors in faceless terms. I have heard people essentially say “The debtors are just trying to get by and the creditors are mean [somehow forcing credit on people] and/or should know better [because they allowed people with bad credit to owe them money].”
But I am a creditor, and I’m just trying to get by and make a good life for myself and my family. By not paying their rent or allowing me to find new tenants, Peter and Tara forced us to cover all our expenses out of pocket. This had real and serious consequences for my family. (How many of you could afford $5000 in mortgage payments plus cleaning/repairs without feeling some pain?)
I grew up below the poverty line with divorced parents. My husband grew up in a trailer park. His father was (and likely still is) a drug abuser and dealer. We aren’t heirs to a fortune, and we certainly aren’t Chase or Citibank. We put ourselves through college for a better life than our families. We work really hard to get ahead. We live financially prudent lives. But I know other landlords who weren’t as prudent. They didn’t have a big enough emergency fund, and they were ruined by a large expense such as ours. In those cases, bankruptcy frequently begets bankruptcy.
When a dentist builds a crown, he is likely a creditor. When a propane tank is filled, the company is a creditor. When a house has any kind of upgrade or large repair, credit is usually at least partially involved. Just about anyone can be a creditor.
Part of the most recent bankruptcy reform bill is to weed out repeat filers and other people who abuse the system. Before reform, there was nothing to keep Peter and Tara from refiling as soon as their case was dismissed. Now there’s a mechanism in place to look at refilers more closely if they file twice within a year. Either way, it still bugs me that it took so long for such a blatantly bad filing to be dismissed. The fact that they weren’t eligible due to a previous bankruptcy should have meant that the court wouldn’t even let them file in the first place. That’s a big part of my problem with bankruptcy — not the people that file, but how easy it is to abuse once you understand the system. After an experience like this, I’m disillusioned.
Bankruptcy has a place, but please remember that creditors have a face too.
Reminder: This is a story from one of your fellow readers. Please be nice. After nearly a decade of blogging, I have a thick skin, but it can be scary to put your story out in public for the first time. Remember that this guest author isn’t a professional writer, and is just learning about money like you are. Ranch house photo by joguldi.
This article is about Debt, Entrepreneurship, House and Home, Reader Stories Sunday, 27th June 2010 (by J.D. Roth)


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Welcome also to the life a community banker…some of us have faces and responsibilities and are not a big bank thousands of miles away.
premeditated, calculated theft from you. they knew exactly what they were doing. wow.
sociopaths.
reminds me of the movie Pacific Heights.
I’m sorry that you had to go through all that. We rent single-family homes in central Canada and feel fortunate that we’ve only had one spectacularly bad tenant. Our lesson? Don’t exchange free rent for renovation work unless you’ve worked with the contractor several times before… and even then, don’t.
We moved away from our properties, which forced us to hire a property manager, and I couldn’t be happier with the results. I couldn’t imagine renting houses out without a property manager.
This mirrors our experience as “landlords” to a “T”. Previous poster was absolutely right. They knew what they were doing and I am sure they are continuing to do the same thing to each landlord unlucky enough to trust them.
We sold all of our rentals and made a nice profit. Haven’t bothered to look back since!
I like the idea of having rental property as a form of diversification. Let’s say you have a paid off house when you turn 65. You have an asset in the house itself and then recurring revenue with the rent.
However, stories like this are certainly the downside. Sounds like hiring a property management company is a good way to go.
I’m a renter at an apartment with my bf, but we’re not bad renters, not all people are bad renters. Anyway I’m glad that you’ve gotten rid of the nightmare couple, it sounds to me like renting is such a hassle, I’d never do it myself.
The clerks had no reason to give you a hard time either, you had your reasons, I’m sorry you had this experience and I hope you never have this situation again.
Good luck to you and your family.
Thanks for a fascinating post! I disagree with ladykemma2, who claims that the bad tenants are “sociopaths.” No, they are ordinary people with bad ethics, who feel that their own misfortune (and/or irresponsibility) justifies screwing over others. Sadly, such people are common.
As a owner of a single rental property (my former residence, as is the case with Shara), I keep rent attractively low and the house in great shape so that I can carefully screen the many applicants who want to rent it when it becomes available.
Not very lucrative in the short run, but this approach saves lots of hassles in the long.
“…renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters.”
This is a little harsh. There are many good reasons to rent even if you are perfectly capable of obeying the law and honoring contracts you sign.
Wow, what a fantastic and well-written article. Thanks!
I agree with Peter. I have rented for the past 8 years, not because of bad credit but because I’ve moved around so much.
And while I agree to remember a creditor’s face in these stories, don’t forget that not all creditors are inherently good. My last rental company (a locally owned business with fewer than 100 units) intentionally tried to keep my deposit for no legitimate reason. After a letter written by an attorney friend threatening a law suit, accompanied with photos of my moveout, I finally got my money back.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
Well, no one is perfect! As a renter I have to stick up for those of us who are good tenants. Some of us leave places better than they were when we moved in. Some of us do the right thing and don’t steal from our landlords. It’s too bad the poster wasn’t able to have the expeience of a good tenant.
There are a number of reasons people rent rather than own besides poor credit. Some people simply don’t want to own a home and have all of the obligtions that go with it. My husband and I currently live in a state we do not want to remain in for the next ten or even five years. We are here for family reasons and so that I can finish grad school. We want to move in the next two years. It simply doesn’t make sense for us to buy, especially with the housing market being so unstable. We need to be able to move easily without losing money on a house that won’t sell or is sold too soon.
It is a common perception that renters are low quality people who will behave as the poster’s nightmare tenants did. As with any generalization or stereotype there are those who simply don’t fit the mold.
Agreed with comment #5.
The character of renters is firstly completely dependent on the LOCAL character of the real estate market. In cities with high housing costs MOST people are renters, lots of them “respectable” professionals. And not everyone has plans to root permanently where they are. We shouldn’t stereotype creditors, it’s true, but we also shouldn’t stereotype their payors.
Thanks for the post - Although I’m sad you had a bad experience with those tenants, I am really encouraged that in the end you did what was right, and were responsible enough to be prepared to take care of the situation (even though you had to pay $$ out of pocket to do so.)
I also appreciate your compassionate ear towards your tenants from time to time.
My wife and I are relocating to Chicago in January and sold our “dream home” in Nebraska in days (when we thought it would take months…) We find ourselves renting for 6 months, and have really appreciated our Landlord because of their willingness to understand our situation - allowing us to rent a great, clean townhome that otherwise wouldn’t have been available to us due to the contractual stipulations.
Moving from a house that was in the top 20% in value (where we live) to a place that rents for $800/month was a huge step down - however, it’s allowing us to pay off the remainder of our small debts and get to a debt-free lifestyle before moving on!
Thanks Again!
I can totally identify with the author. I had a house and when a new job moved me to another city I needed to sell. Unfortunately no one was buying so I rented. The first couple who lived in my house paid the rent on time for several years but when they got a divorce they moved out. After causing about $7000 in damage - new windows, new doors, a new roof on the porch, new carpet, cleaning and painting throughout the house. Apparently the split wasn’t amicable- lol. The next tenants didn’t pay their rent and it took forever to evict them. After again fixing the place up, new carpet(oil and grease throughout the house), repainting the rooms, landscaping, etc I put it on the market. I sold the house for $42000 and had to bring $10000 to the table just to pay off the mortgage.
Thank you for your story, it really is rare to hear the other side of it all.
How unfortuneate that you got a horrificly bad couple as tenants.
I’m pretty sure she was not painting all renters with the same brush, just highlighting her own past mistakes, signs to look for, and lessons learned.
As for “Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.” I agree. There are people out there who have been careful with there money, and are renting because that suits them better, whatever their circumstances are. I’m sure the vast majority of those who read this site would fit that discription, but we are a group that is self-selected to be among the best in terms of personal finance. Unfortuneately, there are many many tenants out there who were not so prudent, or fell on hard times in this recession, their credit records marred through no fault of their own, as well as the con-artists who take advantage of the situation. I can see how it could be very hard to weed out the bad one from those who just need a chance.
That’s where the management company is worth it’s weight in gold.
Good luck in your future renting adventures, Shara!
Shara,
Thank you for writing this article. It was informative to see the bankruptcy/eviction process from an angle not normally discussed. I’m still in graduate school so I rent exclusively, and although I’ve always been a good tenant I’ve certainly seen my share of bad ones (many of whom were friends or classmates). It sounds like you’ve learned a lot from the process, but I’m sorry you had to get a lesson in such a hard way.
The moral of the story is bankruptcy sucks. The creditors get messed over (9x’s out of ten that is us- the general public with a savings account). The bankrupt people learn how easy it is (once your credit is ruined- why bother). And moral, overall, goes down the tubes.
But—what is the alternative? debtors’ prison. Isn’t that a huge reason our founding fathers came to this land to begin with- staying out of debtors’ prison?
One of my co-workers was practically forced into bankruptcy himself due to dealing with a string of bad residential renters. Being a residential landlord seems to be one of those things where even one “mistake” in the form of getting a bad renter can ruin years of investment.
As a bankruptcy attorney, I can say a large share of the author’s problems could have been avoided if you would have contacted a bankruptcy attorney at the beginning of the process. Bankruptcy is, unfortunately, a very complex area of law, and most state courts have no idea how it works, which causes a lot of problems related to landlord/tenant issues.
To Janette, bankruptcy is a great tool, if it is used right. It should be a last resort, used after all other options are exhausted (and I always explain those options to people, too).
I’ve filed nearly 100 bankruptcies for people, and I’ve only had a couple of people who I thought truly didn’t want to pay their debts.
I have a lot of people who have been making payments on cards for two or three years, at 30% interest, and haven’t made a dent. They’ve paid the principal off about 5 times over. I don’t feel bad filing bankruptcy on those cards. I also have a lot of debtors who voluntarily repay creditors (yes, you can do that) such as doctors, dentists, and other local people they know they’ll deal with again.
Just my two cents…
Wow, you got royally stiffed. Although I’ve been a renter as well, I do agree with you for the most part. There’s a desire for stability in people who are home owners that you don’t see in some renters.
Prior to my ex going through bankruptcy about a year ago, he also stopped making child support payments for more than a year. He didn’t realize that child support isn’t included in a bankruptcy so I won’t be stiffed as you have been. But he also owes his 80 yo mother over $75k, I’m sure she won’t live to see it.
It just appears to be the mentality of many people who choose - unless there are very unusual circumstances - to use bankruptcy as a way of getting out of paying for what they’ve received. I’ve only known half a dozen people that have declared bankruptcy, but every one of them racked up their debt as much as possible before filing. A couple of them quit their jobs as well. It’s mind boggling.
I guess the moral of the story is to do your due diligence and don’t assume that people are either responsible or ethical.
Thank you, Shara, for putting a human side to creditors. I come from an entrepreneurial family and growing up with a small business, I have seen this rationalization more times than I can count. Although I still believe that most people do the right thing, there are some bad apples that ruin it for everyone. Best of luck to you getting back on your feet.
I am disappointed that two people from such humble beginnings would make a blanket statement
“renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters.” My inside voice is cursing your arrogance right now. You know why I rent? I make $32k (Canadian) a year and I can’t even buy a trailer 50 km away from the city for under 90K yet I have no debt, perfect credit and lots of savings. Despite all the problems you had with renters, you should thank your lucky stars that you are in a position to own not one, but two houses.
Excellent post about the consequences of bankruptcy for human creditors. However, I too found the statement about renters’ records to be unfair. Many of us who rent never wanted obligations like buying/repairing/replacing appliances, roofs, or paying property taxes. We’re perfectly willing to pay for someone else to worry about those things and we care for our apartments like we care for our own property. We have excellent credit, emergency savings, and retirement accounts. Just like choosing or not choosing marriage or children should not define the person, the choice to rent and not buy should not define me as a deadbeat.
I will stick up what she said about renters rarely having clean records. Part of it depends on the area you live in. I was discussing our investment property with my cousin, who also has units, but it a different area of the country. His criteria for renting to someone was far higher than mine because it makes more financial sense to rent in his high cost of housing state than mine. Sure there are people with great records, but in my area of the country they are greatly outnumbered by those that whose records are spotty, and you want to ask yourself how long you want to wait hoping for that better tenant. We have had our house for two years, and had two leases on it. Both sets of tenants had credit issues, the first set were 22 year old tattoo-covered kids, three had no credit to speak of, and one was paying off a mountain of debt that he said his father had incurred in his name. The next tenants had a divorce-related bankruptcy, some small unpaid bills that they said were fraudulent, and a few other red flags that we didn’t pick up on. The first set were great, we had a few pet issues, but they were pretty much model tenants and I wish they could have stayed for years and years. The second set stopped paying rent after 5 months, told me they would move out of their own accord after 6 months, finally left at 7 months and left an APPALLING amount of damage. Both sets of tenants were completely pleasant and friendly, but I realize now that one set lied to my face almost every time I spoke to them. It cost me a third of what it cost these people, and I am thankful for that. I agree that the common perception of renters as low quality people is unfair, and good or bad credit doesn’t always give you the complete picture. There are many people hammered by a divorce-initiated bankruptcy will make great tenants, or my poor tenant who I’m guessing is still paying the $10,000 of debt his father dumped on him while he is going to school and working part time. The problem is that for those people, the risk of renting to an unscrupulous tenant is far greater than the reward for taking a chance on the guy with poor credit that will be a great tenant.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
I’m a renter, but not by choice. I’m not perfect either, but I do take responsibility for my obligations and pay them on time.
After my divorce I wanted to file for bankruptcy because I felt overwhelmed by my obligations and being a single mom. (Consumer Credit Counselors wouldn’t help me either). I couldn’t file because I wasn’t behind on any of my obligations.
I moved into a “more affordable apartment”. I am still here after 8 yrs (only because I don’t like moving). The landlord is as cheap as this apartment complex. Getting him to replace a 30 yr old stove and refrigerator was like pulling teeth. I had to “break” them in order to get the antiques replaced.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
I would have said older renters or renters with families - there are exceptions, but it is a good rule of thumb.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
I disagree strongly with this as well. I’m sorry you had a bad experience but not every (or even most) renters are like that.
I rent because renting is much cheaper in my area than buying. I did the math, it would take *28 years* to come out ahead on a house if I never moved. Plus, the houses that I priced out, by the way, were in a neighborhood in Nashville that became a lake due to flooding in May. Yeah…not buying any time soon.
I’d rather leave the risk of flooding, tornadoes, termites, market downturn, a neighborhood just plain going downhill, etc to someone else. It doesn’t make sense in my mind to buy unless you have the resources to deal with those risks, ie, a you’re a REIT.
+1 here for the renter-by-choice-thank-you-very-much category.
My sister and brother-in-law thought it would be a good investment when they were first married to buy some trailers and rent out. Unsurprisingly, it turned out to be an awful decision, as many readers can imagine.
Thanks for sharing your story Shara, I think that’s why so many readers here have been annoyed by the casual attitude some people have towards bankruptcy. A bankruptcy doesn’t make a debt vanish into thin air, a bankruptcy means that someone else had to take the loss. If someone doesn’t pay a hospital bill for example, the hospital passes that cost onto all of the patients and insurance companies that DO pay their bills. If someone doesn’t pay a department store debt, the store might raise the cost of its goods. In this particular case, Shara took a big loss, otherwise we’re all paying for it in some way or another.
Another scary story of people gaming the system to stay in houses can be heard in Act II of this recent This American Life show, “Held Hostage”
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/409/held-hostage
amazing and scary, makes me happy I’m a renter - Thanks for the great piece Shara!
I’m glad to see this article. It’s often hard to understand the process for a creditor, or think of them in human terms, even if you’ve met them face to face. I’m glad also that you kept referring to your renters with names (fake I hope) rather than something like “our renters.” It’s important in all situations to remember who you are dealing with in human terms. Even if you are trying to kick them out of the place in which they live. Too often people want to strip humanity from business, but you can’t do that. Your doing a horrible thing to someone by kicking them out of their home, but they are doing something horrible to you by staying there without paying their fair share. If everybody realizes the human side of their actions, then nobody gets emotionally hurt. The problem is when people start to demonize the people they do business with that aren’t being cooperative. In this case, that’s what Peter and Tara did with you. They saw you as the big bad landlord who just wanted their money, and thus, they had no problem taking from you what they wanted. It doesn’t appear from the article that you ever did that, and I’m glad to see that. You saw them as people, and even excused their actions at one point. This is a great piece not just on the human side of creditors, but also on how to handle a bad business situation with humility and respect.
I have to disagree like several others with the bad renters line. We are a military family and we have been moved 6 times in 9 years (most of the time distances over 1000 miles away each time). We need to rent for obvious reasons. We are both graduate school educated, I teach personal finance at local colleges, and we have 3 dogs (2 chihuahuas and 1 boxer lab mix). We have 700+ scores, we provide copies of 2 years of cancelled checks showing we pay rent on time, we provide photos and contact info for previous places we have been, and an asset list to show we have cash to pay our expenses for a year without working. We will be getting stationed over seas till retirement in about 2 years, at which point we will be living in military housing. So when we do come back to the states, we will have been renting from someone for almost 20 years. I don’t think that makes us bad people. I hate to think of moving, cleaning the house, throwing away junk, mowing the yard one last time, etc, AND then have to worry about staging for buyers, finding a realtor, deal with buyer inspections, offers, counter offers, etc etc. I am thankful I am a renter on move out days! We have always gotten our deposit back, and very often left the place better than we got it. We painted the inside (with lanlord permission) of one house a soft beige (because the bright orange in our bedroom was killing me). We routinely have the carpets cleaned both when we move in (if it had not already been done) and then when we leave. We hire someone to do a deep clean after we leave and after we have cleaned just to be sure. So there is a group of people out there who are good people but just alittle too “transient” shall we say to buy a home and put down roots. And after I have read so many stories on here, I may never buy a house at all because of the major debt and obligations involved. We enjoy our freedom and seeing various parts of the world and buying a house would definitely slow that down.
this could be my landlord story also.
- months and $100’s to get the order - in my state, you can’t get rid of people with certain age kids without a “waiting period”.
$1000’s for the police to supervise the eviction, the movers to move the stuff ( I can’t “touch” the renter’s stuff legally in my state) and the locksmith.
and several more thousnads to repair the weeks of nonflushed tiolets , the hundreds of nail holes in each wall and the quarts of motor oil poured on every available surface of the house. Oh and the lawn- where the renter came by the first night after the exiction to ride his motorcycle around for a while.
I would never recommand anyone but a landlord- one bad experience is enough to wipe out any profit you would make for several years.
Thank you for sharing another perspective. Very well-written.
Keep in mind that some people are renters by choice, not wanting the hassles that come with ownership, though the latter might make more sense financially. For many, like myself, we rent because we never stay on one area for a long enough time to warrant ownership, yet we pay our bills on time and keep the place nice (for the most part…). Choosing the right renters seems to be the hardest and yet most important part of the process..
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
When you say something like that, you shouldn’t wonder why people hate creditors like yourself. Not everyone rents because they have to. A lot of people rent because they don’t want the responsibility of ownership, or they move around a lot because of their work. Don’t criminalize people simply because they rent.
Let’s not forget that there are a lot of young people who are recent college grads that don’t have the credit history to think about buying a place yet. It’s like the age old dilemma — you can’t get the job without the experience, but you can’t get the experience without the job. Painting all renters with the same brush is insulting. I bought a place just so I wouldn’t have to deal with landlords with that same mentality.
Like several other commenters, I take issue with Shara’s claim that “renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters”. During the editing process, I warned her this statement would be controversial.
My own feeling is that there are many many reasons to rent, and while a large portion of renters may have problems, I doubt that “most” of them do.
Ditto #28 Alex.
In fact, it was our landlord who screwed us after our last move. He ignored our requests to fix things while we lived there (leaky toilet, etc) and then charged us for them after we moved out.
I’m very sorry you had to experience that.
I was a renter for 10yrs and a landlord for 8. Although I’ve had a few close calls with bad tenants I realize reading your story how lucky I’ve been. Yes, I believe it’s luck that I’ve not had a nightmare tenant.
I was one of those renters that left the place cleaner than I found it and had a couple landlords that kept the deposit anyways. I got smart and at the initial move-in took photos and did the same at move out. I never had a deposit held after that. I think just the fact the landlord saw me doing it gave him/her the message not to screw with me.
I do the same thing with my renters. We sign the lease at the unit and than I take photos and email them off a set so they can refer to them at move out. I also tell them that I DO NOT want there deposit so please clean the unit so I don’t have to hire someone to do it.
Good luck!
Thanks for sharing this story Shara! I did find your generalization about renters a little silly — there are lots of reasons why people with great credit rent:
- Frequent moves to new cities for career advancement (per alex above)
- A stable but unmarried couple not ready to commit to a joint investment
- People who recognized that the US was in a housing bubble and were smart enough to sit it out!
- People re-locating and (smartly) renting to know the area before buying
- People who lived in cost-prohibitive cities (NYC, SFO)
- The many people who don’t fit the recommended “Are you going to stay in this location for 5+ years?” test (and are smart enough not to over-extend themselves)
- People who simply don’t want the burden of a mortgage
Another amazing story of problems with owning real estate was Act II of the recent This American Life episode “Held Hostage” — highly recommended (and scary!)
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
Another renter who has never been late on rent, has savings and good credit, and has always taken care of my residences. I’ve moved cross-country several times for my job in the 9 years since graduating college.
I think this attitude, that after some point being a renter means something is “wrong” with you, is a big part of why lots of people my age rushed to buy houses, some that they couldn’t afford, and now find themselves in an untenable position once the housing market crashed. Even if they can afford their house, I have friends who now want to move for a job opportunity or to a different area that better reflects their current lifestyle and they are stuck in houses that have lost a ton of value and that they can’t sell. Maybe if renting hadn’t been vilified there wouldn’t be so many foreclosures and bankruptcies today.
Yes, my husband and I eventually hope to settle in one place and purchase a home, but it certainly won’t be in our current city. And, “gasp”, this fall we’ll even begin to raise a child in a RENTAL house! The horror!
UGH! So sorry you had to deal with all that, and thank you for illuminating the “other side.” Not all creditors are corporations, for sure.
Holy cow - this is quite a post. Thank you for submitting this side of the story. I’m sorry, Shara, that you went through this - unbelievable.
I rented for 15 years throughout my 20s and part of my 30s and then became a home owner through marriage. Both renting and owning have been fine and each satisfying in their own ways - one offered freedom/mobility and the other has offered a deeper connection to an area/way of life. I never felt any social stigma for renting - heck, I was just proud to be making it on my own. I really don’t take much issue with the renter/clean record statement Shara made - I understand her point,and it’s probably coming from her personal experience. Let’s lighten up
What amazes me about people like the renters described in this story is that they likely wouldn’t THINK of shoplifting or holding up a liquor store! In my opinion, the behavior described is simply stealing from the landlord. Ditto using a credit card to purchase things for which one can’t pay. I am appalled by those who rationalize theft at any level.
Another +1 for the renter by choice category for me too.
I am a 25 year old single woman and all the tasks required for taking care of a house are not for me! Plus, I don’t see myself in this town 10 years from now so it isn’t worth buying.
I would like to say that I’ve run into more issues with bad landlords than I’ve seen landlords with crappy tenants. (Think 5+ days to call anyone to fix my refrigerator after I notified them…then it was 3 more before anyone could come).
Thanks so much for sharing this story. My husband and (until recently) I work for a financial institution and get so tired of hearing that it’s “okay” or “a smart decision” to not pay a bank back. The bank has real employees with faces as well who will get laid off or not receive well-deserved pay increases because too many people are walking away from their debts. Several of my friends have lost their jobs due to cutbacks as a direct result of this wave of people who have no sense of obligation. All creditors have faces, even those “big banks” have real employees who are impacted.
P.S. Well written article and a great read, but commas and periods go INSIDE quotation marks.
As someone who has entertained the idea of being a landlord - I have to wonder about renter horror stories. Isn’t it the landlord’s responsibility to screen potential tenants (ie check references, credit etc?). The landlord certainly has the right to say ‘no’. And if the a landlord is desperate enough to rent to anyone, then isn’t that a red flag that perhaps they should get out of the business of landlord-ing?
I appreciate this post - and how it highlights the human side (of creditors and debtors)… and it gives me a healthy fear of becoming a landlord. It is a business, and there should be a logical way to identify and market to your ‘dream tenant’ - just as you would identify and market to your target customer when you run a business.
We’re renting a house because we’re in a town temporarily. The folks we’re renting our house to have not given us any trouble (yet… there’s a month to go). They are also in that town temporarily. Buying makes no sense.
We did have offers from very sketchy people with no real income to speak of, but we turned them down. Thing is, lots of other landlords also turned them down. It isn’t that there are more of them, but that people who are great renters get their first choice rental and people who aren’t get turned down over and over.
We rented in Boston because when we started we didn’t have a down payment even though we had steady income and we were only going to be there at most 6 years. By the time we had enough for a down-payment we weren’t going to be there much longer and would far rather rent near work than buy and have to commute. (And even though 0% down adjusted rate mortgages were the thing to do back in the day, we were far too stable and old-fashioned to do such gambling.)
Out in Los Angeles, it seems like it’s the renters who are doing fine financially and the buyers who are the ones declaring bankruptcy and foreclosing, among the people we know (virtually… people don’t discuss this stuff IRL).
Like others said, *maybe* renters are no good on average in areas with a low cost to purchasing and no big universities. But that blanket statement doesn’t cover the places where most people rent.
Some story. Well told. Informative.
I was a renter for 4 years. I look on those days fondly as they were really nice places, well kept and inexpensive to live in.Owning a house now, I’m much more appreciative of the trust, money and work that went into managing those apartments.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Breach of contract in any situation is awkward, rentals more so I think. The whole multiple bankruptcy is a new twist.
Shara, thank you for sharing your story. For me reading it, I felt a sense of kinship for what you went through, as my husband and I have gone through the same, so it’s not as uncommon as people might think. I’m sure there are good renters out there, but we haven’t seen any. In the four brief years that we’ve owned our “flip gone bad,” we have had to put (and I am not exaggerating), thousands into the home to repair tenant damage (we’re on our third). Last year, our rental cost us almost $10,000 in repairs and lost rent, most of which was paid for on a credit card. We now have a Section 8 tenant and the state pays us pretty much 90% of market rent on time every month. We have another rental in Mobile, Alabama and our tenant pays less than market rate rent LATE every month, but we get it. Today is the 27th and we are owed half the rent from June (which is in the mail, I’m told). Both properties are fully mortgaged and under water, so there’s no getting out of it. If I had to do it again, THERE IS NO WAY I would ever be a landlord. It is not for the faint of heart, and definitely not for the soft-hearted. Shara, if you can get Section 8, it is well worth the hoops you have to jump through.
Thanks for the interesting story. My husband and I have thought about owning rental property many times, but it is stories like these that make us pause. Perhaps the solution is a good management company. I’m curious if anyone has experience with management companies, and whether such companies avoid these kinds of problems.
Sheesh. I really liked this article. It’s eye-opening. A lot of people think “Ah, well, if my house doesn’t sell I can just rent it out.” I appreciate seeing the other side of this. I also had a friend in a similar situation. She didn’t have the thousands of dollars (and was trying to deal with a property hundreds of miles away) and it ended up destroying her credit.
I think the renter comment has been blown out of proportion. Of *course* the people who choose to read GRS and rent (I’m one of them, by the way) aren’t typical renters. But I know a lot of landlords who would agree with this characterization. It also depends on where you choose to have your rental property. In a high-income, expensive housing area, renters are going to have better credit. In a low-income farm town or industrial town, many renters are going to be…well, scary. (I have lived in both types of areas and speak from personal experience)
Anyway, great post and it really makes you think about some of these “investment opportunities” that people tout so often. I’d love to see more stories on investments that didn’t work.
-Erica
I have a question: back in my younger teenage days, I signed a one-year lease on a house that I knew I wasn’t going to stay in for more than three months–a summer house. I know that I could have been taken to court for breaking my lease, although I did give out one month’s notice on my leaving, left the house respectably clean (cleaner than when we moved in!), and did not ask for my security deposit back.
My question is, how much financial harm am I likely to have caused the landlord? In a town like that one, there are ALWAYS renters, and I moved out early enough that there was plenty of time to find one. I even put up an ad on Craigslist. I don’t want to have been a jerk.
I think it’s important to remember that paying your debt isn’t just good for you, but for the people you owe money to as well. Most people realise it more easily when the peaople they owe money to are family or friends, but that’s pretty much always the case.
Even when you know the person, though… I remember lending money to a friend who really needed it. It was a thousand euros, which was a huge amount of money for me, and technically less for him since he earned so much more.
He never paid me back, and objected that since I could save up the money in the first place, I didn’t really need it.
While this is pushing the jerk level, a lot of people assume that if you have money in the bank, and they don’t, you’re that super-rich person… Even if you only earn a fifth of what they do and can only save due to sacrificing things. I think it’s important to keep things in perspective rather than always put yourself as the victim and the others as “meanies”.
For instance, it was foolish of me to lend so much to a friend rather than help him make smarter choices. He made the same mistakes again and regardless of how jerkishly he acted, he genuinely couldn’t pay me back without changing his habits. I did learn an important lesson there, while he’s likely still in debt (even if you exclude his debt to me). I’m in a better situation than he is.
I also serioulsy resent the line, “renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect”. Have you seen housing prices in San Francisco? Even with a professional job and a credit score of 750+ buying is a daunting prospect leaving only renting. And you may be goof landlords but I have my share of shady ones. There was the one that lied about why someone needed access to our unit, he claimed it was for insurance but instead sold the place. Then there was the idiot property manager who couldn’t fix anything and flooded our bathroom when trying to replace the valve on the tank. Or the place where the floors were in bad shape and the landlord said they would refunahe before I moved in. They were, very cheaply and with cat hair embedded in them. Or the place the landlord refused to buy fire alarms for even though it is the law. Yes you made a financial mistake but outright condeming renters is in poor taste.
This guest post is my favorite so far. I’ve had similar issues (but not to Shara’s extent) with my tenants, whether they have good credit scores or not. I’m down to one rental property and as soon as the current mortgage term is up, I’m selling (I refuse to pay the mortgage penalty) and getting out of the landlord business.
However, I do have to disagree with “renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters” statement. A number of new hires in my department can’t buy a home even though their starting salaries are in the $80k range because they have to be mobile in the first three years of their careers.
Being a landlord is very similar to owning a bar/restaurant in that many people think they can do it part-time, but to be financially successful you really need to make it a full-time job and have a constant eye on things.
@Avistew (#54) - I feel for you. I, too, learned the hard way to never lend money to friends. Especially, ones who call you cheap for brown-bagging your lunch, having people over for food and drinks instead of blowing your money at the bar, and annually repairing your 15-year-old sandals with Super Glue (actually, this is because I LOVE those sandals and they have molded perfectly to my feet), even though you explain to them those habits helped you pay off your home in less than four years and still indulge in the occasional Kal Gajoum or Burberry.
Of course there are plenty of people with clean records who rent. There are also people who look bad on paper who are great renters. But please, until you have rented a place and had to weed through a dozen applicants with varying stories of bankruptcies, evictions, lawsuits, or just plain low score please don’t tell me how great MOST renters are. As a landlord we see the other 19 out of 20 people who suck.
And for those of you who say you rent because you are mobile, that doesn’t mean you are a good renter, it just means you take care of the place. There is a typical vacancy term between tenants that the owner has to cover. If you rent for 12 months and then leave and it’s vacant for 1 month you just cut the average rent the landlord received by almost 10%. And a month in many areas is VERY optimistic after things are painted and cleaned.
Excellent post! Shara’s characterization of renters is completely accurate in my experience. Over the last 10 years I’ve owned as many as 6 rental properties (currently 4) and of the MANY credit checks I’ve run, 60-70% of the applicants have had bad credit. However, it is not surprising that GRS readers are not in this group! I suspect many of the readers questioning this statement have nothing more than their own rental history to base their opinion on. I too was a (good) renter at one point and had no idea what the pool of renters looked like overall or what people were capable of until I became a landlord.
Of course, this doesn’t mean all people with bad credit are destined to be bad tenants – many of my tenants have gone through a bad financial patch and are ready to turn over a new leaf! That’s why I base my decision on many things (I find a stable work history and good employment references to be a better indicator of responsibility), and I never hand over the keys without the first month’s rent and a full month’s security deposit (cleared by the bank).
I’ve had many bad tenant experiences (I once had to have the sheriff physically remove tenants also), but have learned (and made adjustments) from each. Unfortunately, there will always be people who will try to work the system or rationalize their bad behavior – like the reader above (#25 Kathy B) who rented a unit knowing the appliances were old, but broke perfectly good, working appliances because she felt she deserved new ones at the owner’s expense because he was “cheap” (I also don’t replace appliances that work well just because they are old). While I’d love to — I don’t have new appliances at my own house either!
Overall, my experiences have been more positive than negative and have proven to be good investments, which is why I’m still a landlord, but it is nice to know I’m not alone! Thanks Shara!
Are all renters bad? That would be impossible.
Are many undesirable for a variety of reasons? As a landlord of many years, I would have to say the answer is a resounding yes.
Which brings me to a big hole in this otherwise informative article: did this landlord have an functional screening process in place? The author indicates she used a professional screening service–obviously they failed her completely.
First rule: I always do my own screening which consists of a credit report, personal phone calls to former landlords, current employers and the major local utilities such as electric, water and phone. This process takes at least an hour or so, but tells the whole story on a potential–there is no way these people had a good record with the local electric or phone company; and their former landlord probably would have said it all with a simple: “no comment,” which is landlord speak for “run for the hills.” Note: if there is any excuse given why the above background check information cannot be provided by the prospective–run for the hills.
Second rule: have an substantial security deposit in place. I know they tried, but they took an excuse instead of money. If the money is not in your hand before the first day of tenancy–the place stays empty.
Sorry. But most renters are a rough crowd–they see the landlord as the enemy, and their viewpoint is always biased in their own favor–witness every comment to this article made by those who rent. If the renters in the article were just “hard-pressed folks” as some of the readers claim, how do you excuse the fact they were cheats, liars and outright thieves in more ways than one?
Those who rent can be good people, but they must be cherry-picked from the crowd, and I know from long experience that even the finest of tenants unfortunately seem incapable of ever seeing a given situation from a landlord’s point of view.
Shara,
This is a good lesson you’ve shared with us - sorry you had to go through it all though. I’ve been a real estate lender for 12 years and in finance for 25 and I absolutely agree that creditors get a bad rap when it comes to individuals filing for bankruptcy. We always feel sorry for the only the individual and forget the creditors, and I don’t mean the big banks per say, but small businesses and individuals such as yourselves.
Using a service such as a management company and letting the professional do the thing they do best, makes sense. You have to spend money to make money.
My husband and I rent partially because affording a home would be a stretch and partially because we like not having to worry about all the things that come with a house. We’ve got credit ratings over 800, have never been late with rent (usually early), and are very careful to leave a place as nice as we moved into it.
On the other hand, these renters sounded like there were red flags all over (doesn’t a credit check show previous bankrupts?). Bad renters suck for the rest of us, too, by giving a bad reputation to tenants, because who is going to remember the good ones when the ones that break things or steal or pay rent late (or never) leave such a terrible impression behind?
(Also, I have a few bad landlord stories… Not every landlord is perfect either, or timely about things, or honest. I far prefer to deal with rental companies than people because of a couple bad experiences).
I guess I was bothered by the blanket statement about Shara’s characterization of renters because it feels like an excuse. Its terrible what those people did to her, but there were HUGE red flags that she ignored. The fact that they told her they were “in bankruptcy” but she didn’t check the court records (something you can do for free) to determine if they had actually already filed, and she let them rent without paying a deposite despite knowing they were in bad financial straits. From the beginning it should have been clear that these people were not good renters.
I don’t know what area she lives in, but I know many good renters who have good credit, good references, and good work history (including myself).
Excellent post.
As a landlord, I had a similar experience with a tenant who left my house with a dog locked in one room and dog crap all over the floor… house wide open and appliances stolen after I sued him for the rent that he was several months behind on.
From now on, I rent to Section 8 tenants only, and I have a very good one in there right now. I have to keep an eye on the property to make sure they treat it well, but at least I don’t have to chase anyone for rent.
I have seen a lot of people with the attitude that a landlord must be rich, so it’s ok to rip them off… or they must be mean to evict someone for nonpayment of rent, unheeding the cries of the tenants’ hungry children.
Puhleeze. This is a business. If you don’t pay your electric bill, it gets cut off, no matter whether it’s Christmas or Labor Day. If you don’t pay your rent, you get kicked out of the house. As a landlord, you have to be hardnosed about this, because there are a million Peter and Taras out there…. and even more people who are not quite as sociopathic, but will put their rent bill at the bottom of their priority list, because they think you will be a nice guy. Uh-uh.
Great post - thanks for sharing this perspective.
I think it’s disgusting when people are casual about bankruptcy or act like they are entitled to it and maybe even doing something good. Bankruptcy should be reserved as the last option for truly desperate situation. And the person filing bankruptcy should feel the full regret of having left others with his/her debts.
Bankruptcy has victims. Most businesses in American (who are creditors) are small businesses. If you bankrupt on them, you’re legally stealing from members of your community. Most landlords are also individuals, and many of those are on the edge or middle class. And even if one files bankruptcy on debt owed to a large company, you’re still forcing others to pay what you owe for your poor choice (even if the institution did enable those choices).
My grandparents rent a house. The rent plus social security is all the money they have to meet their basic expenses. I would consider anyone going bankrupt on them as having stole from low-income 87 year old people, and that would be pathetic no matter the renter’s situation.
This was a great post. I appreciated hearing Shara’s side. We are moving to a new home, and will put the former on the market. If it does not sell, we plan to rent it. We were hesitant, for fear of a bad tenant, but Shara’s post really spells out a worst case scenario beyond what we feared.
We have a distant relative that bought a house, nearly went bankrupt but was bailed out by an Aunt. He walked away credit intact, and later the Aunt, who was not as secure as she should have been, filed bankruptcy. Of course other family members (not the guy) are now helping the Aunt. Meanwhile, the guy buys another house, and then short sells it. Supposedly that hurt his credit score, but starts to fade after a year. So he is ready to buy a new house! If he gets another mortgage my head may explode!
I am shocked at the lack of personal responsibility, both on my relative’s part and on the tenants in the story. There are people who truly need help and there are those that game the system and take all they can without worrying about who will pay. Sometimes those paying have a human face, like my relative’s Aunt or Shara. Sometimes it is a company, but then, in the end, those of us paying our mortgages, credit cards, doctor bills, etc pay. (of course, the Aunt in my story is on both sides- due to her kindness/generosity she was a victim of my relative’s debt, but that in turn led her to default, sending her debt onto others…no good deed as they say)
@Martin #63,
“I have seen a lot of people with the attitude that a landlord must be rich, so it’s ok to rip them off… ”
Yes, that’s the attitude that I see so much now. Like Shara, I did not grow up rich, I have no trust fund. My husband and I balance our budget and live below our means, as so many on GRS do. Because we sacrificed for so long, we now have some money (by no means rich in my mind, but we are on a good road for retirement). Others who overspent and are now broke, look at us like we “owe” them, or that its ok, we are rich because we can afford things like a rental property. Whereas, to us, the rental will be a part of our retirement plan and its costs are carefully calculated in our budget.
It’s funny how Shara took issue with Tara because of Tara’s passing the buck on the rent responsibility, then Shara blames her own husband for the loss of suppplies taken by the renters.
Still, this is GREAT information, a heck of a read, and I learned a ton from it. The last part about where Shara and her husband came from, her husband’s father being a drug dealer/user, etc….I think this could have been handled more deftly. It’s helpful for us to know you come from humble beginnings, but the defensive tone doesn’t seem necessary, and you don’t have to justify your actions. You were far more civil than most would be.
This article is especially interesting since we just bought a rental property out-of-state. This would be interesting to read more about as well. We are working with a very solid management company, we purchased from a very reputable group, and we feel confident that all will work out well. Yet, this reminds me that anything can—and will—happen.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
As a landlord with 17 years of ownership of small apartment buildings allow me to throw in my dime of knowledge. You think that now that you have turned over the managment of your property to a professional managment company you are in the safe zone. Wow. In my opinion you have just stepped into a big pile of …. I find that most managment companies will make the potiental tenant look and sound great just because they don’t want to have to do the work of showing a property to as many people as it takes to find a good tenant. They view their job as filling the place and moving on. There is a reason that you see them at the courthouse all of the time, it is called choosing tenants poorly.
I have found that I am a much better judge of the people that I want in my place and you knew when you put certain people in your property that they may be a problem, and sure enough they were. How about you screening the people until you find a proper match. When you do this the problems become much less of a problem.
Live is a series of choices and if you don’t want to make the hard, but good choces you will get the result of your poor choices.
Choose well to get well….
These renters are putting the Dunning-Kruger effect on display: they are too dumb to be aware of their own incompetence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Several commenters have stated that a management company would have eliminated Shara’s problems. This is not necessarily the case.
My parents rented out their property for 4 years while they were out of country, using a property management company that had come highly recommended. Two sets of tenants and a moderate amount of damage later, the property manager and 2nd set of tenants were pointing at each other (and sometimes blaming the 1st set of tenants). My parents had to sue the property manager to recoup repair expenses.
Most people who buy don’t stay more than 5 years either… that statistic is part of how so many people were convinced to take exploding ARMs.
In places with strong rental markets, one generally has to pay two out of three of realtor fees, deposit, and last month’s rent. Many places take the cost of paint etc. out of the deposit. Weaker rental markets won’t be able to charge as much, but that’s because they’re weaker markets and not as good a business decision for landlords.
The expected cost of vacancies is priced into rent. Long term tenants also tend to have rent below market price, precisely because the cost of vacancy is priced into rents. It’s ridiculous to say that someone who leaves after a year’s lease is up is a bad tenant. If it were a longer lease, the monthly rent would have to stay below market. (And when we were long-term renters we successfully negotiated no rent increases from our landlords every year that they tried to increase it.) It should be a wash.
It sounds like the only kind of tenant who isn’t a “bad tenant” is one who begs to pay higher rent than the risk-adjusted market rate and never asks for anything. Home owners aren’t exactly chomping at the bit to pay higher prices for their homes either.
On our rental we said no to a couple who offered to pay more than asking and 2 families that offered to pay asking price with no actual source of income. We instead went with someone who bargained for less than our expenses but had been checked out by the US government, had a fixed source of income for the year, a large amount in savings, and excellent recommendations from current and former employer. We also have a management company taking care of things. We were willing to take the cut in rent for that security, just like the people we are renting from were willing to accept $300/mo less than their asking price because we’re good risks. The risk is priced into the monthly rent.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters.”
Wow, what incredibly discriminatory statement. My grandparents owned a 4-unit apartment complex when I was growing up so I am aware that there are plenty of bad renters out there. Having had my grandparents, parents, and myself having subsequently been renters for periods of time over the past 30 years, however, I know there are plenty of renters who have clean records and are still renters.
Reasons for this? Unsure how long you want to stay in the city you’re living in (or will be able to, if your job may require you to move), don’t want the time & hassle involved in keeping up an entire house and surrounding property, not being able to afford to purchase a property in the area you want to live in at this time (which does not equate to financial insolvency), not necessarily viewing home ownership as the best investment of your money.
What a moving, well-written and informative article. I’m sure a lot of us had given no thought to the plight of the creditors before (I am ashamed to say that I was always on the side of ‘the little guy’ without even knowing the full story).
@JD: thanks for making this guest post happen. Well done and very useful.
Thanks for the article! Quite eye-opening.
Shara,
Thank you SO much for sharing your experience! My husband and I have been landlords of 5 apartments in 3 houses for almost 10 years, and we had NO idea about what could happen if one of our tenents filed for bankruptcy while we were going through the eviction process!!!
The eviction process is difficult enough, (our case was thrown out once because we signed in the wrong place, which meant we had to refile, pay a sherrif $50 to serve the tenent again and lose another month worth of rent!) I don’t understand why the court seems to put more emphasis on protecting the delinquent renter than the property owner!
I also loved your term, “metal gymnastics.” Between being a property owner and working in human services, the justifications people make for not doing what they are supposed to never ceases to amaze me. One of my favorites is when tenents says they paid “their half” of the rent, so they shouldn’t be evicted. (I’d love to try that one with our mortgage company!!!) Another favorite is a tenent who was mad at us for not cashing his check until the end of the month, because he went and spent everything he had in his account by then, and had to pay the bank overdraft fees to cover his rent check. So HIS irresponsibility in not leaving enough money in his account to cover his rent check makes ME the bad guy??? Unless you are a property owner, you would not believe what people consider to be ok. Many people DEFINITELY believe that if you own a rental property, you are wealthy, and therefore the bad guy. We actually use our business name and the tenents think our husband is just the property manager .. that way he can listen to everything they want done, (you wouldn’t believe the things they want, either .. my favorite was a tenent who wanted the hardwood floors re-done, when her kids kept breaking windows and putting holes in the walls) and he can say that it’s not up to him, but he’ll ask his “boss.” This way the faceless boss is the bad guy, not my husband.
It’s important to note that not ALL of our tenents are like this … we’ve had some wonderful, responsibe tenents over the years .. one woman has been with us since we first bought the properties. And we do work with our tenents when they fall on hard times, IF they are making a sincere effort to work with us. We’ve had surprisingly few evictions over the years, because we can usually work with people to volunterily leave by doing a “cash for keys” (which is when we offer to give them half of their security deposit back if they are out of the apt, and leave it in good condition, on a certain date.) This may seem counter inuitive .. giving a tenent who hasn’t paid rent money to leave, but in the end it costs less than the expense, time and frustration of doing an eviction … and it gives the tenent motivation to return the apt in good condition, instead of them tearing it up, and taking things that don’t belong to them, (we’ve had people take the globe off lights and the batteries from the smoke detectors) because they are angry and want to retaliate.
Thanks again for your article - we would never had know about how a bankrupcy filing would affect us until it actually happened!
Sharing your experience will definitely help other people not to be taken off guard like you were. We really can’t thank you enough!!!
Peggy
My first home I bought was a duplex; I lived in one side and rented out the other side. This was in my early twenties. I followed my parents lead. They had done the same thing. Fortunately for me, I had them to learn from. I also spent alot of time researching the laws prior to renting the first time. I had actually written a sorta proceedure with the steps I needed to take to evict renters so nothing came as a surprise. After all, this is a business. Poorly run businesses don’t last very long. On top of that, I always set rent somewhat below the area average, and I always checked credit, jobs, and previous landlords. This way, I could pick and chose the best candidate. I was never greedy. I was just looking to leverage someone else to cover the mortgage. I can say that I never had any issues like this.
I’m a little bit cynical, but if you given people space to take advantage of you, someone will.
Thanks for sharing, Shara. Confirms many experiences I also have had. The media and politicians love to portray landlords as the Big Bad Wolves and renters as their innocent victims. Unfortunately, the reality is usually far different.
Shara (#59) wrote: I am not saying that people with bad or questionable credit are bad renters. What I am saying is that most people who seek to rent have red flags.
And I think this is where people are disagreeing with you. “Most” isn’t the right word to use here. “Many” or “some” or “a significant number” would probably have been fine. Still, I agree with Erica that overall it’s a side issue to the article. (Which is why I wanted to excises the sentence in the first place!)
Like everyone else, I think this is a great post that shows a side of bankruptcy that we haven’t explored at GRS much. I don’t think it gets mentioned anywhere very often, and I’m grateful that Shara took the time to share her story. Thank you.
I was a Landlord for a short time and it was a complete disaster. I sold my house several years ago but am still in a court proceeding with an ex-tenant who left without notice. I didnt sue her out of compassion because she was this old lady who was a Refugee but I realize now I should have.
She is now suing me because of a fall in my house. Last time I saw her in court she had a walker which she was literally carrying until she got before the judge. Now we have to go for part 2 of the hearing because she wouldn’t stop talking with all her complaints about me.
She said she has all these medical issues but reading her medical report it states that all her medical problems were issues that this was dealing with before she even stepped into my house.
I know I will win in court but the hassle, the stress and the general expense of travelling, taking time off work and just the fact that she would go to this length is what is making me so mad and sad.
Quite an eye opener and reminder of how south some agreements go. Thanks for sharing Shara & reminding this reader why I don’t really want to go into Rentals. We live next door to a Landlord of several houses in our community & as they have dealt with non paying renters, we have found their tennants searching for them at all hours to make 11th hour payments, yelling over being served, etc. Ugly at times & a real heartbreak while trying to raise 2 kids in a rual community away from big city presssures. Dan#69, you have not been there, don’t criticize perspectives from others who choose by choice to break the cycle. Glad this article was published! Thanks again.
Great post, Shara. Several people in my family own rentals, and this story, unfortunately, is very similar to some of their past experiences. They nearly always have to rent to people with less than stellar credit, though I believe that to be a function of the neighborhood in which the rentals are located, as well as the price of the rentals. If you own rentals in a depressed neighborhood, you are likely to get potential renters with bad credit. They simply don’t have the means to live elsewhere. I have ZERO interest in being a landlord!
Thank you for telling us the other side of bankruptcy. Reading stories defending the other side quickly became annoying, but your story is a pleasant reminder of why we should encourage responsibility - people, who’ve worked very hard, are hurt from people’s feckless choices of slipping from owning up to their mistakes.
Obviously as a renter, I don’t agree with your characterization. But, I also realize that you’re writing that from experience with renters, and in your area, that might be a very good characterization. Thank you again.
TRUE! I work in the mortgage industry and see how people ABUSE the system everyday. It has made me understand that there are some creditors who are ruthless, but I really think there are more people that have no idea of standing behind their word.
Banks may have gotten us into some of these messes, but people were the ones who signed up for the loans. Both are at fault with this crisis…. and in my perspective the PEOPLE more so. Lack of education may be a legitimate explanation… yet still people agreed to terms, regardless of how “shifty” …. and then they come complaining that banks are evil and expect a free lunch. It is a crazy situation to be watching from the inside and made me want to avoid renting a house out… EVER.
“But there are red flags with most people; renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. ”
I understand their resentment because of the experience they had with some bad people, but this is just plain wrong. There are a lots of reasons to rent having steady income and clean record - for one, the hosing prices where I live were beyond insane in the times of the boom, and are just returning to the plain insane level now. I understand that being a landlord is not easy, but nobody forces anybody into it. Maybe if there wasn’t so much prejudice that only “bad people” rent or that if you rent there must be something wrong with you, the current situation with housing and people going into insane debts to buy houses they can’t afford wouldn’t be that bad…
Thanks for sharing your story, Shara. We’ve been landlords for just a few years, and lucky so far. DH is the Property Manager, and belongs to the landlording association, so we’ve heard many cautionary tales like yours. I need to point DH to your story!
You’re reminding me why I try to keep the “investment properties” account full!
To Shara’s controversial point about renters with dodgy credit: the person who’s renting our house has bad credit, but is also the single mother of young children who has a solid job with a stable company. Her credit history showed that she always paid on time and in full for housing, car payments, and food, no matter what; her credit problems were mostly for school loans. We’ve had no problems so far (knock wood). So, there were red flags, but DH chose to take the risk, and here we are. I encourage DH to make an appointment to see the house a few times a year, to make sure things are OK. So far, the rent shows up, and the neighbors don’t complain, so . . . (fingers crossed).
Shara, I think you are confusing “most renters” with “most people who apply to rent my house.”
Where I live, almost everyone rents. Your statement might be true in suburbia, or in a neighborhood where it’d be cheap to buy, or in any number of other situations. But I think you’re dead wrong in your generalization.
What I mean is, we “get” that your applicants have had red flags. But all that means is that your house is not the kind of place that people with good credit and steady incomes want to rent. Maybe those people are renting in a different neighborhood, or prefer apartments to houses, or any number of factors. But thinking they don’t exist just because they don’t want to live in your house is pretty ignorant.
And stating that people who move out after their 1-year lease is up are “bad renters” (or not “good renters” as you said) is silly. The person met the terms of the contract. Moving on doesn’t make them bad. If you have people leaving as soon as their contract is up, maybe they don’t like their landlord.
Rent-to-own is just as bad if not worse. Next door, the house was these people’s second rent-to-own (began in 1999). They refi’d in 2002 and put the house in their company’s name. Then when the company went belly-up and filed bankruptcy, they got their church to pay the arrears on the house. They then put it back as a residence. But they still personally weren’t able to pay. Their church has pulled them out three more times over the five years (four times total). The outside hasn’t been painted in twenty years; needs a new roof; the owner’s idea of maintenance is to shoot the squirrels ruining the eaves. The inside carpet is matted with food. It’s now gone thru sheriff’s sale and they are to be gone end of August. Where are they going? To a third rent-to-own. Helllll-lo! Check the courthouse records before you sell to someone who wants “rent to own!” Over the last four years I figure they’ve paid maybe a year of rent. Eighteen years ago, they did the same thing. It’s allllll there in the courthouse records!
@Nicole(#73)- Oh yeah, that “cleaning fee” I’ve been seeing everywhere the past couple years? My current landlord explained it as a way to cover the costs of turning an apartment, but man, did it hurt to pay.
Re: the 12-month lease: I typically move every 1 1/2 to 2 years, and it never occurred to me to feel bad about it before! I figure the places I typically rent from are in big cities and nice but not very hip neighborhoods (with charming seventies/eighties era decorating and appliances), so they’ve got to be used to people “trading up” after the lease runs out. We’re good neighbors and tidy renters who pay on time. If the landlord needs me to stay over a year to make a profit, they’re not charging the correct rent. We all agreed on the term of the lease, isn’t anything longer just icing on the cake?
Perhaps it is the people we see who have red flags. The reason I made a point of that is how many times here I have heard “You should have seen the red flags”. It is really easy to see these flags when you read eight months worth of interaction distilled down to a page and a half intending to highlight the bad turns. In reality very few things are clear cut. People can look good and be awful tenants and people can look bad and be great tenants. I am not making moral judgements on people with red flags, but it’s easy after the fact to claim that from the flags that were raised one should KNOW the outcome would be bad, because it isn’t always. I know we madebad decisions, I always refer to this experience as “Tuition in the school of life”. I think of picking a bad renter like picking a bad stock. I am a lot better for what I have learned from landlording, as painful as it is sometimes.
I was also thinking about the “most renters…” statement today, and I think a distinction can definitely be made about what TYPE of housing one is looking at. This is a single family home. Therefore many single families look at it. Many of the reasons people remain in rentals by choice are for the type of people that aren’t looking at this property.
And vacancy is a consideration for profitability, but not for price. I price my rental at what I can get for it, which may be higher or lower than my expenses at any time (hopefully higher, but there are bad years with repairs, vacancies, and bankruptcies), not at what it costs me. I am fine if someone stays for the term of a 12 month lease and leaves, but most renters don’t think of the cost of turnover. Just because you are clean doesn’t automatically make you good.
I think it’s funny that so many renters take things personally when landlords make general comments about renters. Without renters landlords wouldn’t be in business, and we are always looking for people like you guys describe yourselves. Of course many aspects are adversarial, but ultimately we are dependent on each other. I don’t WANT bad tenants. I am entrusting an asset that is worth a lot of money! I want you to be exactly what you say you are, great honest people who always pay your bills on time. But I’ll pick stinkers and make mistakes. I’m human. But wasn’t that my point?
@Carol
Rent to own is a GREAT point. It is a completely different animal and one should NOT GO INTO IT LIGHTLY. In my state you don’t evict someone in a rent to own situation. It is considered closer to a financing situation and is closer to a foreclosure than eviction. In a rental situation the law assumes the house belongs to the landlords and renters are simply using it. In a rent to own situation the house is considered the renter’s property. Instead of a 30 day best case eviction cycle you are looking at months (a friend of mine went through the situation around the same time and we traded war stories).
If vacancy isn’t a consideration with price, then why are month-to-month leases more expensive than 6 month leases and 6 month leases more expensive than 1 year leases? The market prices it that way no matter what any individual decides to do. You may be a price-taker but that doesn’t mean that vacancy rate isn’t included in the price. That’s the invisible hand at work.
Nasty horror story.
I think its a good argument for hiring a lawyer from the start. A lawyer would have been able to navigate the legal system better and resolve the issue faster at less total expense.
Unfortunately I think the comments about renters undermine the article, and the clarification really doesnt change it. The fact that I have to move after a year doesnt make me a “bad” renter. If that is your perception, then you probably should not be renting. As the wife of a government employee who had to move, we always payed our rent on time, left the house better than we found it, gave two months notice and so on and so forth. As far as I am concerned, that makes us good renters. If you really think that in order to be a good renter you need to stay for multiple years, you probably should not be renting I expect. And secondly, as others have stated, relying on an angency does not necessarily improve your life as a landlord. Been there and done that-I was renting out a primary home to tenants will iving in a rental home (with landlords who were happy to have me and did not care that I was there for only a year).
@Julie (#51)
We used a property management company when we moved and rented out our previous primary residence in 2008. The company was a referral from our real estate agent. They definitely took the time to take care of the house, which I appreciated. The tenants were wonderful. We decided to sell the house in February, which coincided with the tenants planning to leave anyway. The real estate agent said she’d never seen tenants who kept the house so tidy for showings. None of the other agents who showed the house realized a tenant was in there. Sounds like we got lucky or maybe it was the property management company’s screening process. Do some research before selecting a property management company–online reviews from tenants, ask real estate agents, etc.
“Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters. No renter is perfect.”
Yeah, I think you lost a lot of us with that one statement, because it describes perfectly how you view your clientele before they set foot in the door.
Plenty of folks here have responded with their stories and told you that they are good renters who pay on time, and have perfectly good reasons to rent. Here’s another perspective though - you probably consistently get bad renters because of one of several possible reasons, and possibly others that I haven’t covered:
1) Your house is in a low-income neighborhood that attracts folks with seasonal jobs. Inner-city rentals will also attract the same kind of clientele. Suburban rentals in high-income, white collar neighborhoods, or those in communities that encourage permanence (schools, hospitals, universities) are naturally not going to have the same kind of bad-record renters.
2) You have priced your house too low, or at least lower than the ones perceived by renters as “mid-level” or “high-end”. Folks who view themselves as mid-level or high-end renters with good records will wonder why yours is priced so low and not rent from you.
3) Your house doesn’t look “high end”.
4) Your house is in an unsafe neighborhood. I can afford to pay good rent, and I understand that I could pay lower if I was willing to live with a certain level of crime. I’m not the only one who thinks this way.
5) With you being a private renter and not a property management company, I never know if you’ll have the money to support large repairs or if some significant repair will cause you to go bankrupt, leaving me stranded and having to move on short notice. With a property mgmt company, my risks are lower because they will have other revenue streams to cover repairs. So, I, as a “good record” renter will not rent from you. Guess who else is left?
I am sympathetic to the troubles faced by creditors, and for the reasons you have described in such helpful detail, I probably will never choose to become a landlord. I really liked your article. But, just to add color to your story, it’s naive to paint all renters with the same brush based on your limited perspective and then after these many commenters have told you why your perspective was wrong, continue to defend this view (Comment#59).
We rent because we’re students, and in our town there are plenty of wealthy and broke students renting, some party animals and some spending their weekends in the library.
My landlords have been more bad than good, though- especially the individual people.
Landlord #1 had bizarre repair priorities (he replaced the carpet on the porch (!), but never fixed the dishwasher which never worked since before I moved in.) Then he let a bunch of jerks move in below us with multiple undeclared pets (lease said no pets), who had a massive speaker system that broadcast noise and vibrations into my bedroom almost 24 hours a day. It would wake me up in the middle of the night because my bed was shaking. Even though they had broken the lease in 10 different ways, he refused to kick them out because they paid more rent than us. I left midyear.
Landlord #2 was a company, no problems whatsoever!
Landlord #3 may actually be insane. He shows up at the house late at night and knocks on our windows (?) if he needs to talk to us. He has never done a single repair that cost over $5, and there is still a pile of gutters in the yard from years before we moved in (and the house is missing half its gutters, which he promised to put on before we moved in.) Oh, and the basement is infested with groundhogs sometimes. Time to try our luck with landlord #4!
Oh, and someone who leaves after a year is NOT a bad tenant. If they leave, you raise the rent slightly. If they stay, you leave it the same. Problem solved.
The statement “Renters rarely have clean records or most of them wouldn’t be renters” was ridiculous.
Perhaps, as Sarah #89 suggested, the kind of renters you want don’t want to rent your property.
After my divorce, I decided to stay in the area so my children could remain in the neighborhood with their friends and not have to change schools. I am leaving this area as soon as my daughter graduates from high school in three years. I have enough money for a down payment on a house, excellent credit, but I don’t want to buy a house. I feel blessed that I got out of the housing market for a profit when I did. I CHOOSE to rent.