What does a blogger’s spouse do while the blogger is out of town? Hang out with other bloggers and their spouses, of course! While Chris Guillebeau was off playing with the tigers in Thailand, his wife Jolie spent some time with Kris and me.
Last Friday morning, we picked peaches (and then Kris and Jolie canned them). In the evening, the three of us had dinner with Erica (from erica.biz) and her husband Richard. As you might expect, the conversation had a tendency to stray toward personal finance. Because I’d just published my article about life in the third stage of personal finance, we talked a bit about that.
Third stage frugality
“How does frugality work when you have more money?” Richard asked.
I was confused. “What do you mean?” I said.
“Well, when your income increases, how do you stay frugal when your expenses go up? How does frugality scale?”
“Ah,” I said. “Well, frugality works pretty much the same way as it did before. I mean, if you’re doing certain things to be frugal when your income is smaller or you’re digging out of debt, you should probably continue to do most of those things, even if you get more money. For example, we just picked and canned peaches this morning. Growing and preserving our own food is one way we stay frugal. Plus, we buy a lot of our clothes at thrift stores. That sort of thing.”
I thought for a moment. “I guess it all comes down to conscious spending.” Richard hadn’t heard the term before, so I explained how it’s important to remember at any income level that you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want. In other words — and as I said the other day — we choose to skimp on some things so that we don’t have to skimp on others.
“Here’s an example,” I said. “In Your Money: The Missing Manual, I profile Chris Guillebeau. He spends a small fortune on travel every year, but he doesn’t own a car. He bikes or rides the bus or walks everywhere he needs to go. Plus, he and Jolie have a spartan home. There’s no clutter.”
And here the conversation suddenly changed directions…
De-cluttering once a week
“Oh,” said Jolie. “There’s no clutter at our place because I make sure we de-clutter every week.”
“Every week?” Kris asked.
“Every Saturday night,” said Jolie. “We go through the house and get rid of the stuff we no longer need.”
“Is it actually getting rid of Stuff?” I asked. I found it hard to believe that anyone could de-clutter every single week. (I have a hard time de-cluttering a few times a year, though I know I should do it more often.)
“Yes!” she said. “And it’s so much fun. It clears your headspace.”
“How much of your home do you reclaim every Saturday?” asked Richard.
“Well, not a lot. But it’s mostly about getting in the habit of letting go,” Jolie said. “Sometimes I’ll see something say, ‘I like the idea of this, but I’m never going to use it.” So I chuck it.”
“What do you do with the Stuff you might need someday?” Kris asked.
“Then someday when I need it, I’ll buy it or borrow it. But usually the Stuff I might need someday, I don’t need any day. Not enough to keep it around, anyhow. So I get rid of it.”
“I have a problem with keeping too many books,” Erica said. “I can’t get rid of a book if I think I might want it someday.”
“Yeah,” said Richard, “but we still got rid of a lot of books when we moved to San Diego.”
“We purged our books several years ago,” I said. “We had thousands of books, and we sold them to used bookstores or donated them to Goodwill. I think we got rid of almost two-thirds of our collection. And you know, I do find that sometimes I want a book that I got rid of — but not very often. When that happens, I either buy it or borrow it from the library.”
“Me too,” Richard said. “I think I’ve had to re-buy maybe three books since we moved.”
“What do you do with the Stuff people give you?” asked Erica. “You know, gifts and so on.”
“It’s gone,” Jolie said. “If it’s clutter, we get rid of it.”
“Even if Chris gave you flowers?” asked my Kris.
Jolie smiled. “I don’t like flowers because they’re clutter.”
We all laughed at that, and then the conversation moved on to other things. We ate our desserts (chocolate lava cakes all around!), said good night, and headed home.
Shared knowledge
I enjoy meeting readers and colleagues for lunch or dinner, and precisely because we tend to have conversations like these. We compare notes. We share what works for each of us, and we ask questions about how other people manage money. Meetings like this used to scare me — I was worried the people I met might be psycho-killers! — but I’ve come to see them as one of the highlights of this job.
Vicki Robin (co-author of Your Money or Your Life) has long suggested that most folks would benefit from talking about money in a small-group setting. I think she’s on to something. (In fact, starting next month, she’ll be conducting a series of Financial Intelligence telephone workshops that some of you may be interested in.)
There’s a sort of tacit taboo against talking about money in our society, and that’s a shame. By not talking about our financial successes and failures, it’s difficult for anyone to see what does (and doesn’t) work except through painful trial and error. But if you have the courage to approach a friend or colleague to ask them if they’d be willing to compare notes, each of you can come away better equipped for financial success!
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Nice post. I went through a major decluttering when I moved from US to Sweden (it took a whole month of selling and trashing and donating things before I could vacate my apartment). I arrived here with my clothes (need things for all seasons esp brutal winter), 2 books, my Kindle and electronics I actually use, and a small sculpture from an earlier trip to Japan. And I’ve found that I’m not missing the things that I got rid of / didn’t bring with me.
I don’t shy away from talking about money w/ my friends, as long as the conversations are geared to “how can we improve our lives?” and not “what should we buy?”
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I had a really interesting conversation about money and stuff with a Hare Krishna on a recent plane ride. (I recommended your site– he might be reading this! Hi!)
It’s hard to talk about money with lots of friends though… we come from very different backgrounds and the ones who talk (read: complain) about money are generally the ones doing worst with it… but even suggesting a book can start unpleasant emotions. We have learned with many people just to be quiet when the subject comes up. We couldn’t possibly understand what they’re going through either because we make more money or, even though we make way less money we have more saved up.
I do bond over money talk with my FIL. I think he doesn’t have a whole lot of other people to talk about it with because he’s doing so much better than the rest of their family. It’s much easier to talk with other people who are doing well and have similar values, even if they’re not the ones who are miserable about money and could possibly use the most conversation. Like Suze Orman says, first you need to figure out the emotional roadblocks before you can tackle the problem. And that is often not our place to do.
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I have recently gone through a major decluttering I have used FreeCycle and Craigslist to give away a bunch of stuff and sold over $5,800 worth of stuff! It is easier on the mind to have less stuff, for sure.
The only person I can talk to in my family (except my husband) about money is my uncle. My uncle should have been my father…we get along so well and have the same values…and we are the two most successful people in our family.
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I really enjoyed this post! I enjoy talking about money with family and friends but I do think the worse off a person’s financial situation is the more ackward the conversation. I have a couple family members who’s situations are pretty bad and when money comes up I feel like Nicole (#2 above), they complain and as much as I try to listen I feel like their issues are greater than the money coming in verses money going out formula.
And…you had me at de-cluttering, however, I wouldn’t turn down a bouquet of beautiful flowers but I do agree they are clutter:)
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Wow! I didn’t know that you live in San Diego. Me too! (One of my biggest money challenges was adjusting my expectations to the higher cost of living when I moved here from the midwest.)
Maybe there could be a San Diego GRS picnic at some point? I think it could be very interesting!
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I totally agree that we need to talk more about money, not just so we can learn from one another, but also so we can support one another better during hard financial times. You can’t be considerate of your friend’s tight budget (e.g., when suggesting outings) if you don’t know she has one.
Also, I was really intrigued by Jolie’s statement about “learning to let go.” DH and I have found that regular charitable giving has the same effect. The more we give, the less we think about our money as just something we can use to buy Stuff.
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This is right on J.D. in regards to both clutter and financial transparency. I’d say you’re doing a pretty good job considering you tell everyone who reads the blog about what you are going to be spending on your next trip (or buying a new Mini…an awesome car BTW…or whatever).
I think if people weren’t so emotional about their finances, they’d be more willing to accept advice from others (that are doing well financially) on how they can be improved.
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come on — flowers aren’t clutter, they are self-limiting and a source of beauty for a little while. We do need beauty around us. Plants, too, aren’t clutter, but air fresheners and a way to keep some nature with us even indoors.
We have an “antique” christmas cactus that is one of our most treasured possessions inherited from my dear husband’s family. I’d rather have that live plant than any “real” antique.
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I think it would be great if people talked about personal finances more! I know it took me reading about a lot of people’s stories about uncluttering and going debt-free before we made the change. Its encouraging to know it can be done!
Last spring we made some major changes and moved from a top floor, two bedroom apartment to a much smaller basement apartment…all to get out of credit card debt (which we did!)
I chronicled about it in my blog, not thinking much of it, but since then I’ve heard it come back to me in so many different ways. My mom listens to Dave Ramsey now and my grandma tells about our “downsizing” to anyone who’ll listen.
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I hate clutter, but I do like flowers. I figure they don’t last long enough to count as clutter. However, the vases they come in do count as clutter, so my husband has been trained….if he gets me flowers, he gets the ones that just come in bunches without the vase, and I will just take a vase out of our “stockpile” from the past and put it in one of those. Even after getting rid of some of the vases we had, we still have plenty.
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RE: the flowers. I think Jolie was making a joke, trying to make a point. I could be wrong, though.
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“so I explained how it’s important to remember at any income level that you can have anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want.”
This is so not true… if by “any income level” you mean middle class, then sure. But a whole lot of people are living on next to nothing and can’t “have anything [they] want.”
Last year 20% of US households had less than 20k in income, and 8.6% had less than 10k (most of my clients live on $8088 per year – $674/month – in a city where a studio in the ghetto costs $550/month).
You can have anything you want… unless you’re severely disabled, have a major health problem that your insurance decides not to cover, work for an industry that collapses, etc, etc, etc.
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Well, I beg to differ.
I reviewed the post, and from what is posted that was not a discussion about money. It was a discussion about clutter and a brief mention of frugality at the beginning.
A real discussion about money would be about: how much money things cost so people could compare prices, how much money each person makes, etc.
In our culture we can talk about prices to some degree, but true conversation about a person’s individual incomes are rare. This post proves it.
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I was thinking about stuff and clutter today while riding the bus. I think people have loss focus a little bit about the value they attach to their stuff. Sure I like my stuff, but people are almost associating their love of stuff the same way they would with their love of their spouse or child or pet. Ultimately stuff is just an inanimate object. It’s plastic or metal or paper. It’s not a living breathing organism. If you stop thinking of stuff as something living and think of it as an object, it’s way easier to get rid of it and stop accumulating it.
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I try to keep the channels of communication open by being fairly open about my situation. I paid off my credit card 3 years ago, and paid off my student loans this year, and if it fits in conversation, I mention it – because being out of debt is AWESOME.
I suppose once I’m doing even better financially, I may increase my vagueness, but I still think it’s important to talk about things like having a budget for giving to others, or tracking my grocery spending, or the fact that I’ve been tracking my spending for three years. I’m also fairly vocal about saving for retirement!
With my siblings I’m even more open – they pretty much know what I make and owe and save, and vice versa.
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Oh, and about the weekly decluttering. WOW. I moved into my apartment four years ago, and just last night I was realizing that I haven’t touched 95% of the books on my shelf – I’m all about borrowing from the library (unless I’m trapped in an airport!).
It’s interesting that I feel weird about not having many books in my home! Still… I’m going to do yet another purge – just as soon as I get my current trunkload of Stuff delivered to Goodwill!
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I try to talk to friends and family about money, and refer them here or to other places with great advice. Most of the time, I might as well be talking to their dog, or cat. I hear “we should do that” a little too often knowing nothing will change. Once in awhile something gets through, and I suppose that makes it worth the while. You also hear excuse after excuse for why someone *needs* 150 cable channels, or some other ridiculous waste of money.
It can be frustrating.
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I’m not a packrat, but I definitely enjoy having beautiful things in my home. Flowers and paintings surely top the list of my favorites!
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@ joe17, I seriously doubt that J.D. recounted the entire conversation here. I believe he gave us the part that he wanted to highlight.
Weekly decluttering: I do it too. Sometimes I don’t find anything I’m ready to give up, but often I do.
My sister and both my best girlfriends are familiar with my money situations, and I’m pretty up on theirs. I think because we don’t have a stake in it, we’re able to be more purely supportive. I would not start a money conversation with just anybody, though, including my parents.
My folks own a house worth upwards of a million and have substantial investments (even after the crash). But they do not have an estate plan, and I’m not sure either one has life insurance. They tell me almost everything about their health, but when it comes to money, for whatever reason, that level of trust is not there. And it’s mutual: there is a lot I don’t tell them about my financial life, because I anticipate judgement.
As we see over and over again, judgement is unfortunately the default position for a lot of people.
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@18… including you, chacha. Disagreement isn’t necessarily judgment.
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I liked the above comment that w close friends it’s good to say “it’s not in my budget” and they likewise because it’s a way to support each other and not make each other go backwards!
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I have a friend who’s a real estate broker and tax accountant. At one point, he and I invited a bunch of our friends over for pizza and we all talked about our personal finances with a specific focus on house buying. I was surprised by how much I myself learned and I know several of my friends also found it very useful. We’ve since gotten in the habit of having conversations like these and I’ve found each and every one of them to be educational. If I didn’t learn something about money, then I definitely learned something about my friends.
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@5 Rachel: Richard and I live in San Diego. We were visiting Portland and arranged dinner with JD, Kris, and Jolie.
But yes, JD, you should have a GRS meetup in San Diego.
-Erica
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To say you hate getting flowers seems a little over the top to me. I hope Kris had a sense of humor hearing that… and that you bought her flowers the next day!
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Flowers are actually the gift I give to my uncluttered grandmother when I stop by. She has one vase and when the flowers are done looking pretty, she can chuck them.
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This was really interesting. I think it’s a great idea, but with the caveat that the individuals involved are all of relatively similar economic strata. I’m not so sure this would work if the financial circumstances of the members were widely disparate.
For instance, I have some friends with whom I know I could not discuss money. They live on much less money than my wife and I, and they are deeply in debt while my wife and I are debt-free. If we discussed our finances openly, I’m sure it would shock these friends to learn how much cash we have just sitting in the bank. They clearly know we’re better off than they are, but I think revealing the specifics could only lead to resentment and envy.
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Why not tackle this issue at the heart of the problem? The original question was:
“Well, when your income increases, how do you stay frugal when your expenses go up? How does frugality scale?”
Why do your expenses go up when your salary does? For me, at least (taxes aside), my expenses are in no way related to my income. Over the past few years, I’ve probably had three raises or promotions, and I kept the same exact expense level. I did some quick math and filtered every “new” dollar of my paycheck into my mortgage and savings.
What I didn’t do was go out and get 2 new magazine subscriptions, add some channels to my cable package, or upgrade my almost 10 year old car.
“How does frugality scale?” It doesn’t have to. And if you really are frugal, it shouldn’t.
Be as frugal as you can or want to be, regardless of your salary. If you think that going out to eat less will save you money, and it’s a concession you’re willing to make, do it. It doesn’t matter whether or not your bringing home $20,000 or $120,000.
For most people reading this site, an increase in salary should be a reason to pay off bills faster, save more, or – I will even say – splurge on something. But your expense structure does not necessarily have to go up.
That’s the thing that struck me most from this post.
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Interesting topic. I actually broached the idea of starting a women’s financial discussion club to a couple of female friends, and they had 0 interest. I was pretty bummed.
The problem that I have talking with my friends about money is that we are in very different situations. The majority of my female friends shop shop shop shop shop, and then complain about their debt. We save, save, save, and throw everything at our debt (school and auto loans) with the plan of being debt free in 1.5 years.
As we free up money we plan to invest, and I want people to talk with about this, but nobody I know seems to even THINK about ETFs…and at some point I just feel like I’m rubbing our financial status in people’s faces, even though we don’t make more than our friends, we just allocate our money very differently…
I also get questioning looks from friends when I talk about a recent thrift store find, or when people come to our new house and see our college furniture. They can’t understand why we don’t spend $2000 on new furniture, and I don’t feel like explaining that the $8 Craigslist white particle board tv stand holds the tv up to the same height that the $400 crate and barrel stand would, and that $2000 towards out student loans and early mortgage payments is going to save us a lot of moolah in interest….
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I’ve thought about doing this as an additional service to clients, but haven’t figured out the logistics of it yet.
JD said, “Meetings like this used to scare me — I was worried the people I met might be psycho-killers! — but I’ve come to see them as one of the highlights of this job.”
Are you sure they didn’t scare you because of your previous financial state? That’s the biggest reason I think these things don’t happen more often – people are embarrassed and feel like they will be judged. I certainly would have felt that way when I was living paycheck to paycheck years ago.
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Money is not something one talks about in polite company that is for sure. Its too much like bareing your naked self. My friends are either doing REALLY well in which case when they talk about $ with me I feel like they are talking down to me like you would a child and they do not take my advice to THEM seriously (b/c what would I know? I make 1/3 of what they bring in seems to be the message) or are on welfare and so oh-poor-pitiful-me about it that I get frusterated. How can you be on welfare AND have an iPhone? So their $ troubles are self inmposed and I begin to resent that I work to support them with my taxes. So the only discussions about $ I have are online and I rather prefer it that way
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Hey JD, where can I get rid of comics to declutter? They’re not worth much. If I take them to a comic book shop, I’ll get pennies on the dollar and come out feeling fleeced. I don’t think Goodwill would want 1000+ comics from the 90′s. The only book charity I know that would take them is hundreds of miles away.
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…also getting financial advice from people who are deeply in debt and spending $ on silly things is hard to take seriously. My brothers DIL was telling me about a great deal he found on an iPad and how it would be an ‘investimate in our kids education’ (we are currently saving for a house w/little debt left to go) and I just wanted to laugh b/c their home phone was just cuff off for not paying…so I’m not immune to judging either
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Two observations: Regarding the relationship of income to frugality and expenses, while my income has gone up modestly over the past 6 years, since I got married, my expenses have gone way up due to the growth of my family. On my previous income, I couldn’t have supported a family, but based on my current income, I have had a child and taken on new habits that build my relationship with my wife (dinners out, movie night) that I didn’t do when I was single 6 years ago. So while I agree that all else being equal, frugality and income should not be related, but with more income you’re able to do more, be more and with with those things come more expenses that you simply can’t substitute by cutting from other areas when you’re already living pretty frugally.
Second observation, aside from savings strategies or money habits, I wish more people would share their personal balance sheets. It seems highly taboo to talk about how much you spend on certain categories in any non-anonymous way, or, heaven forbid, talk about your net worth. I realize there’s a sensitivity with all of these topics, as you don’t want to make people feel like they’ve failed, or give them room to boast, but using others as yardsticks of where you could be (assuming certain income and expense conditions) really helps in seeing what is possible and goal-setting. Maybe this is why I like Suze Orman’s “Can I afford it” and “How am I doing” segments so much.
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Cleaning out every saturday nigh is a heck of a discipline to get into.
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@27 Tim… For us I think it was we had lifestyle inflation as our income went up and then at a certain point we had “enough” and our lifestyle didn’t inflate much anymore. But we would be very unhappy if we had to live the way we did in graduate school permanently.
re: flowers. I don’t like cut flowers and I don’t like indoor houseplants in our house. I hate watching the process of them wilting and dying. It isn’t a clutter thing so much as a personal thing. Love flowers and plants outside the house. Also not crazy about jewelry.
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I’m kinda like Jolie. I was going through my apt almost daily for awhile, but I’ve slowed down now that I have less than half what I did a year ago. It’s true – you have to keep it up to keep it clear! If only I could break my bf of his collections…
@YD – my bf trades his comics online – mycomicbookshop.com or something like that – he loves it
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@Patrick 33 — I’m single and live in Brooklyn so probably not relevant to your life, but I just posted a midyear spending update that shows how much $ I’ve spent so far. My Open Wallet (also a PF blogger from Brooklyn) posts her annual budget.
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“Well, when your income increases, how do you stay frugal when your expenses go up? How does frugality scale?”
That reminded me of so many discussions! Mainly with people who were convinced that when you earn more, you HAVE to spend more. I was talking about how, if I got a raise, I could save that much, and a coworker was all “no you couldn’t! If you got a raise you’d have to move to a bigger place and the rent would be higher” and so on.
I don’t see why your expenses would go up just because your income does! I agree that sometimes it’s the case, if a higher paying job requires you to drive further for instance, but usually it’s just extra money. I wish more people realised that.
I’m confused how it would be possible to declutter every week though. Apart from food – that I eat – I don’t even buy anything at all most weeks, so what could I find to declutter? But I agree it’s good to always have your mind on “what can I get rid of?”
As hard as it was leaving most of my possessions back in France, I can’t honestly say that I’ve really missed anything at all.
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I noticed that your link to Vicki Robbins book Your Money or Your Life is a link to the old edition. The new edition, updated in Dec 2008 is called Your Money or Your Life: 9 Steps to Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Achieving Financial Independence: Revised and Updated for the 21st Century – Monique Tilford was her co-author and Mark Zaifman was a contributor. The Amazon link to the updated version is http://amzn.to/cIZLcM
Most of the info is the same, but the investing section is completely re-written. You don’t want folks to buy the outdated book.
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I’d love to read more on exactly what Jolie and her husband do to declutter on Saturday nights – do they pick a room, a category? My husband and I really need to become better declutterers.
Rachael aka Ms. MoneyPenny
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Money could be a touchy subject with some people. I don’t like to talk about finances with friends and family. Everyone has their on way of handling money. I learned mine the hard way and I feel most people will only learn from their mistakes.
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When you can have respectful conversations about money, it’s worth talking about. Especially when you’re not focusing on the exact amounts of money/debt, but on the techniques. So while I don’t think we need to discuss actual budgets (unless you’re that comfortable with the person), I always love to hear how people manage their finances.
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I didn’t read the other responses today, so I hope I’m not too repetitive.
I read a lot of money/frugal blogs and articles. I read them to learn things and because I find it entertaining. It’s funny, though, how few people know about them. I supoose I’m hesitant to share because I don’t want them to feel like I’m lecturing them or trying “show off” that I’m trying to be more frugal if they aren’t. It’s even more odd since I’m such an open person and my friends know way more about my personal habits/life than they probably want to know. With my closest friends, there is almost no hesitation to talk about money – but otherwise it’s still a relatively taboo subject.
Thanks for this article. Perhaps if I just begin talking more frankly about my own money situations then others of my aquaintance will feel more comfortable doing so as well. I don’t plan to be evangelical about it (ugh, how annoying) but at least do my little part to encourage people to not feel so self-conscious about money.
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Wow! Decluttering every week!? I know I need to do that more, but I’m thinking once a month might be a good start.
My problem is that I justify keeping those clothes that – you know – some day I’ll want to wear.
Or even movies. I don’t know why I keep movies. Once I watch it, there is such a diminishing return for me to watch it again.
I just can’t get the same joy and yet I keep those stinkin’ DVDs!
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It is difficult to talk about money as a woman with most other women. Most women just love to shop, which is the opposite of saving. So….
The best deal would be to find a set of friends with similar values and even income levels. That way when you talk with each other, you aren’t caught up by the numbers and can get the principle behind the numbers.
Jealousy can be a really big problem.
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@Becky: You’re so right! I’m much more likely to stick to my budget and feel good about my (counter-cultural) financial behavior when I’m in the company of like-minded friends. My frugal buddies really encourage me.
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Two things came to mind reading this article. First, I find it interesting that when people who are frugal or minimalists talk about clutter or things they get rid of, books are almost always mentioned in the negative. This always saddens me because for me books are a treasure and a hobby. I love collecting the old books I enjoyed as a child and sharing them with my little girl. I love seeing complete sets of loved series lined up on my bookshelves. I think people need to remember that one man’s clutter may be another man’s treasure.
Second, I do find it sad that Jolie said she didn’t like flowers because they were clutter. It’s find and dandy to get rid of the things we find no sentimentality in or that we will never use but flowers are an expression of love, especially in the context of your conversation and since they are meant to be thrown away when they wilt I don’t see anything wrong with getting them for the meaning behind them. Just some thoughts.
Thanks for a great article, good thinking material.
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