The Tiger Mother and You: Are We Preparing Our Kids for a Better Financial Future?
Published on - January 27th, 2011 (by J.D. Roth) This is a guest post from Robert Brokamp of The Motley Fool. Robert is a Certified Financial Planner and the adviser for The Motley Fool’s Rule Your Retirement service. He contributes one new article to Get Rich Slowly every two weeks.
Those of you who are parents — and those of you who came from them — may have already read the Wall Street Journal article by Amy Chua (which is an excerpt from her new book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother). If you haven’t read it, this excerpt will give you an idea:
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it’s like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I’ve done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
- attend a sleepover
- have a playdate
- be in a school play
- complain about not being in a school play
- watch TV or play computer games
- choose their own extracurricular activities
- get any grade less than an A
- not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
- play any instrument other than the piano or violin
- not play the piano or violin.
As shown in this Today Show interview with Chua — a Yale law professors and the daughter of Chinese immigrants — when her daughter gave her a plain handmade birthday card, Chua handed it back and said, “I reject this.”
We namby-pamby Western parents may cringe at such harshness, which is one of Chua’s points. Western parents, she says, are too worried about their kids’ self-esteem. Chinese parents, on the other hand, “assume strength, not fragility,” and thus can get away with calling their kids “garbage” or “fatty.”
The article has set off a conflagration of debate, mostly critical of Chua. However, as typical of my deliberate, contemplative nature (read: wishy-washiness), I’m not quite sure what to make of it all. If this is indeed the way most Chinese (as well as other Asians) raise their kids, and if this indeed is the reason Asians, as a group, are more academically successful, I can’t help but pay attention. My job, my kids’ future jobs, and my non-Asian investments all depend on being able to compete in an increasingly globalized world. Herein, I’ll lay out thoughts on why Chua’s style of parenting may be off the mark, and then discuss why she may be on to something.
“Yes, Mommie Dearest”
The criticism of this style of parenting falls along these lines:
A’s aren’t everything. A Motley Fool freelance contributor, who during the day works for one of the biggest companies in the world, recently took a company-sponsored class. One of the things the instructor said was this: “The ‘A’ students typically work for the ‘B’ students, but it’s the ‘C’ students who own the company.”
While that’s very simplistic, it was somewhat confirmed in a recent interview I conducted with Thomas Stanley, co-author of The Millionaire Next Door and author of the more recent Stop Acting Rich. He said that, according to his research, the typical American millionaire “owns his own business, went to a four-year public college, and was a B or C student.” (The interview will be posted on Get Rich Slowly next month.) I won’t encourage my kids to be C students, but a person’s success will be determined by more than a transcript — things like interpersonal skills, self-confidence, creativity, and a certain amount of independent thought, among others.
The “Chinese” way doesn’t produce innovators or entrepreneurs. If you read through the 7500-plus comments to Chua’s article on WSJ.com, you’ll see plenty along the lines of “Yeah, well, why does the U.S. have three times the GDP of China with one-third the people?” Or “Have the Chinese invented anything great since gunpowder?” Or “Why do the vast majority of Nobel Prize winners comes from the West?” Most of these are chauvinistic throwaways. But they do touch on a fair question: Does very rigid parenting produce too-rigid adults? Would there be a Microsoft or Apple if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were raised this way? The Chinese themselves are wondering this.
The principal of the Peking University High School wrote (also in the Wall Street Journal):
Now that China is a market economy hoping to compete globally, it’s jealous of America’s ability to turn its brightest students into the world’s best scientists and businesspeople.
That sounds like a miserable childhood. No Sesame Street? No drums? Sure, Chua’s daughter has performed at Carnegie Hall. But is that worth not getting your hand dipped in water by your friends while you’re asleep…and all the other fun stuff that happens at sleepovers?
Among the comments to her article, you’ll find plenty of people who were reared this way and didn’t appreciate it. One example:
I am Chinese-American and I hate the way that my parents raised me. As a child I lacked complete freedom to make my own choices. I was not able to freely hang out with friends and I was forced to study all the time.
To be fair, you’ll also find plenty of comments along the lines of “I was raised that way and am thankful for it.”
Fat, Drunk, and Stupid Is No Way to Go Through Life
On the other hand, maybe we Western parents are too easy on our kids. Here are some thoughts along those lines:
American kids are getting out-worked. Whitney Tilson, a hedge-fund manager and indefatigable education reformer, has written a lot on this topic (and Chua’s article) on his blog. Here’s a sample:
I find what Chua describes (no sleepovers, playdates, or ability to make any decisions at all) to be extreme, but if one were to put parental expectations of/pressure on/control of kids on a 0-10 scale, with 10 being what Chua describes, I think the ideal is much closer to 10 than 0 — maybe an 8.
In a world filled with endless, cheap, mind-rotting entertainment via hundreds of TV channels (heavily weighted toward 24/7 sports, cartoons, and other junk), the Internet, video games, music and movies, I’m firmly convinced that nearly all children will spend every waking hour messing around with these activities and wasting their lives, unless their parents AND schools (but the former much more importantly) keep a very close eye on them, tightly restrict what they can do, and make them do many things they don’t want to do, such as study hard, read books, have a reasonable diet, go to bed on time, dress decently, etc…
For more on how Chinese (and Indian) youth are just HUSTLING a lot more than America youth are, I highly recommend a great documentary, Two Million Minutes.
Here’s the trailer for Two Million Minutes:
American kids are getting out-educated. You’ve likely already heard all the stats about America’s flagging education system, so I won’t dwell on the topic. I’ll just quote one study — from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development — which found that American 15-year-olds ranked 17th in reading, 23rd in science, and 31st in math. Tops in each category: the kids in Shanghai, China.
My kids have to compete with these kids. I live in a county with a high school that is regularly ranked as the best in America. It’s a public school, but you have to apply to get in, and it’s tough. Among the class of 2014, 57.5% are Asian. To what extent are my kids competing against kids with “Chinese mothers” (a term the Chua explains can be applied to parents of any ethnicity who are equally strict)? And that’s just for high school; what about the rest of their lives?
Maybe we do care too much about self-esteem. I have to include this quote from former D.C. schools chancellor Michelle Rhee (whom I respect a great deal):
We’ve lost our competitive spirit. We’ve become so obsessed with making kids feel good about themselves that we’ve lost sight of building the skills they need to actually be good at things. I can see it in my own household.
I have two girls, 8 and 12, and they play soccer. And I can tell you that they suck at soccer! They take after their mother in athletic ability. But if you were to see their rooms, they’re adorned with ribbons, medals and trophies. You’d think I was raising the next Mia Hamm.
I routinely try to tell my kids that their soccer skills are lacking and that if they want to be better, they have to practice hard. I also communicate to them that all the practice in the world won’t guarantee that they’ll ever be great at soccer. It’s tough to square this, though, with the trophies. And that’s part of the issue. We’ve managed to build a sense of complacency with our children.
For more from Rhee, and a funny/sad snippet on American kids’ self-esteem, watch this trailer for the excellent movie Waiting for Superman:
Building Better Brokamps: Project 21
My wife and I have discussed this article and our parenting quite a bit. We don’t want to be overly strict; we want our children to have happy childhoods. But we also want them to be equipped to compete in the job markets of tomorrow and have their own shot at getting rich slowly.
Our solution for now is something we’re calling “Project 21” (working subtitle: Raising Our Own Best Guests). We’re imagining that it’s several years from now, and our kids are 21-plus years old and home for Thanksgiving dinner. What kind of people do we hope to see around the table?
We’ve just begun this, so the list hasn’t been finalized yet. But it includes a range of skills and characteristics, such having a work ethic, being financially prudent, and, yes, doing well in school (what would you expect from two parents who each have a master’s degree in education?). It will also include some touchy-feely — but very important — stuff, such as being polite, being adept at the art of conversation, demonstrating compassion to others, having interests and passions that they want to share, and appreciating creativity, cleverness, and a good joke.
Last night my wife said, “Bad parenting is a major threat to national security.” I heartily agree. But the question is, what exactly is bad parenting? I’m not sure I’d want to be Chua’s kid (though, in this hilarious interview with Stephen Colbert, Chua explains that her book is a bit more nuanced than the WSJ article). But I do appreciate that she’s spurred a national debate about how our kids are raised.
| The Colbert Report | Mon – Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c | |||
| Amy Chua | ||||
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My wife and I raised very successful children without using these techniques. They had high GPAs (3.8 & 3.6), participated in sports, Girl Scouts, part-time jobs, had friends and socialized. They are well adjusted and can manage their lives well. Part of parenting is creating a safe environment where you can learn, make mistakes and explore various experiences. Not all learning is academic.
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There is nothing particularly Chinese about the “Tiger Mother”. Chua is simply Orientalizing a mind-set that is typical to upper-middle class parenting in the northeast U.S. The only link I see to actual Chinese parenting (in the sense that the parents are from China) in the US is that many Chinese immigrants these days are middle class or higher and share many characteristics with their American counterparts in pressuring their children to be more accomplished versions of themselves.
The hint that this is Orientalism and not an actual cultural difference? The speed with which hackles rose among upper-middle class parents. I am not saying that this particular social class are categorically abusive parents, but they are deeply familiar with the motivations.
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I have seen both the US and the Indian parenting sytle (which is very close to Chinese). There are problems with both but if I HAD to pick one, I will pick the Asian style (biased, biased, biased
) The reasoning is, US parenting style overwhelmingly encourages “kids-know-better” attitude and gives too much freedom in my opinion. If I cut off my parents half way through the conversation and say “whateva!” and shut the door of my room, I will be in deep trouble. But all my neighbor did for this exact scenario is, tell me that she hates teenage kids. Two things we should do is
(1) Relax a bit and let kids be kids.
(2) Introduce them to entrepreneurship. We are pathetic in this and this is why we are very successful in starting a business.
I am not saying the western parenting style is bad, all I am saying is, we seem to be taking the freedom and individuality to the extreme. There is no need to take one approach or the other. Take the best from both worlds. I guess people can’t appreciate the notion of best of both worlds unless they have experienced them both. And the Asian parenting style taught me that I am not always right. I take it to heart and will follow a hybrid style.
I am not a parent yet, so take this comment with a grain of salt. But I do come from a wonderful family, Indian family, who taught me to be competitive yet to be true to myself. The best parenting comes loving, calm, reflective and clear minded people, wherever they come from.
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All the talk about everyone gets a medal or trophy makes me laugh. Those trophies are really for the parents. So they can say at work, “oh yeah they all get trophies.” It is easier than saying, “My kid’s team is terrible they never win.”
My nephew plays soccer and there is no score keeping. He and all of the kids know the exact score after the games. They are not even aware of the lack of score-keeping.
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The Tiger Mother is wrong to think that you need to control your children to produce successful adults. While my daughters are not yet into adulthood they are both top of their class and have excellent communication skills with adults. What I do agree with Ms. Chua is that you should not coddle them. You can raise your children how you want, but if you let them be mediocre, my children will be able to get their scholarships, jobs, and promotions. Just saying. Be a parent, encourage them to excel in something they enjoy, teach them to work hard, and be involved in their daily activities.
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It’s an interesting debate, no question. I think that there is much to learn from these methods, and there are lessons to be taken from their effectiveness on certain behaviors of kids.
Note that I said certain, but did not say all.
The U.S. has build itself up through hard work, but also through innovation and entrepreneurship. It’s these skills that can be dissipated in a kid who gets berated over not playng a musical instrument perfectly, and doesn’t get a bathroom break. There’s a time and place to get that serious, but not all the time full throttle in my view.
I think that a solid mainstream U.S. approach to raising kids works well here in the U.S. when looking at it holistically, but people would have to be blind not to notice some of the real benefits of other philosophies. Clearly, there are benefits to certain aspects of the “tiger mom” approach, and maybe some can be blended into that mainstream U.S./Western approach I alluded to.
Bottom line: why not pick out the advantages, incorporate them, then weed out the rest?
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Maybe our government can learn from China (and the rest of Asia) on how to save more. I think there’s no denying that our country sucks on saving.
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Enjoyed the conversation and diversity of thoughts. I just have one link to add that I found interesting, which is to the response of Amy Chua’s daughter to the controversy. I’m not sure if this is the original link, but here Amy’s daughter talks about how she feels about her mother & the Tiger Mom style of parenting – I found it an interesting addition to the conversation.
http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/why_love_my_strict_chinese_mom_uUvfmLcA5eteY0u2KXt7hM#ixzz1BUttW1hn
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loved the story. love the concept of project 21.
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My Ex-fiancée was raised this way & he is as many of these commenter’s described.
He’s never had a successful business of his own despite many attempts, he has negligible social skills – kinda mean spirited, has an awesome work ethic, but kills human relations with his words. He is a very lonely man – I’m the longest relationship he’s had since his wife left him.
From what he told me of his parent’s child rearing it was kinda inhuman & cold. He has a really good heart but it was squashed by the parenting the good heart only comes out when he’s tipsy. Though he was allowed to play with neighbor kids sometimes otherwise it was as mentioned in the article.
Every culture has their strengths but America was built on freedom of the individual & that will always be an undercurrent to our thinking & child rearing.
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I feel that two thing not mentioned in depth are environment and genes. I’ve read a few of the posts and can’t agree with some. What comes to mind is Mozart–a combination of genius and demanding upbringing that kept him focused on what he could do best. I’ve heard stories of kids in poor environments become successful; and kids in rich environments fair mediocre. I strongly feel that there is a “competitive” gene which potential can be triggered to achieve–depending on the environment. If you don’t agree, look at case scenarios where immigrants (or not) siblings have all equally reached some great heights. IMHO.
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I am a first generation Indian in US, parent of a 5 year old girl. Soon my daughter will go to school and I struggle with what values I should install in her.
Do I want my daughter to not have the experience of music, sports, drama? No.
Do I want my daughter to not have sleepovers, play dates? No.
Do I want my daughter to go to a school where everyone is promoted to next grade despite their shortcomings? Absolutely not.
Do I want her to go to a school where academic performance is important? Yes.
Do I want her to go to a school which will prepare her for college? Yes.
In my view US and Indian/Chinese system both have pros and cons.
Asian Pros: No free praise, learn value of real achievement, accumulate knowledge
Asian Cons: does not encourage social skills, less emphasis on innovation.
US Pros: Build social skills, innovation, better higher education system
US Cons: Sports/other activities have more importance then academics, child self esteem, teacher union, parents are not involved.
Most of my colleagues talk about their children’s football, basketball, cheerleading etc. No one cares about language, maths, and science! Economy is down and schools here are cutting programs to save money. All parents crib about cuts in sports program, almost no one talks about cut in science lab budget.
Sports success does not create next Google or GE or ALCOA!
Science does.
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I grew up in a mixed Asian household (half Hispanic), with my mother being of Japanese descent. Myself and my brothers owe a lot of our success to her. At times, she was very strict, but I think without that discipline and direction, our lives would be very different (for the worse) than it is today.
My two brothers and I graduated from college (an accomplishment considering nobody on my dad’s side has), and my older brother and I went on to start a business that now employs my younger brother as well.
Do I wish at times that my childhood had been different? Sure I do. I remember all the times I had to stay inside and study/do homework when other kids were out playing. I probably only went to a handful of sleepovers, and never was really in the “cool” crowd. Towards the end of high school however, my parents started to loosen the noose and I was given a bit more freedom, even more than other “American” kids had. I went a little crazy in college, but graduated, and I would say that I have gone on to become very successful.
If our childhood had been a lot different, who really knows how we would’ve turned out? Reflecting back now, I will probably raise my children differently, but with the knowledge that tough love is sometimes what it takes to be a great parent and to give your child the best chance at success.
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Parenting is HARD, there is no trick around it. You are being strict for their well being and for their future if what you tell yourself. You are preparing them to compete in a Global workforce and be successful. This is great except for one issue. Are we not strictly raising children to work? What happened to living? Forgive me if I am not trying to raise the next Nobel Prize winner. I would rather raise children to be smart, happy, and enjoy live outside of work. I work hard for them, I am on GRS because I have learned to save for their future. My goals in life are not to raise people ideal for the workforce. I am not going to crush my sons will so that corporation can have another good mathematician. How many of us wish we could have our youth back so we could have studied more? There will be plenty of time for that. Playing in the dirt, making snowman, building tree forts, and flashlight tag…. well there are only a few good years for that.
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I saw an interview with her and she did say the book is a memoir and not necessarily meant as a guide. She admits she has made some mistakes
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My parents have amassed a total of 3 years of post-secondary education between the two of them. My mom works for minimum wage and my dad is unemployed.In some ways, my parents were completely uninvolved in their children’s education. I was never told what marks were ‘good’ and which were ‘great’. All I had to do was stand out. If everyone got a ribbion I had to get a trophy before my parents would congradulate me. If everyone got a trophy I had to make MVP. And so on.
My parents never pushed any of their kids to go to college. Guess what? We all still went.
Both my older sisters have minimal schooling (2 years each) and both have yet to fail a job interview. They traveled to Europe and even with their limited foreign-language skills and the fact that they were leaving in a matter of weeks, they would land $20-$40 an hour jobs because of their incredible leadership, time managment, problem-solving and interpersonal skills.
My brother is just about to finish his 2-year journalism degree. He has contemplated changing his cell number so he will stop being mobbed with job offers.
Yes, job offers for a newbie *in journalism*.
I’m in engineering. If I get a 3.5 GPA my parents will tell me thats very nice and all, but they are way more interested in the fact that my English prof sent off my reasearch paper for awards consideration, or that I was chosen to be the student representor during our school’s Open House.
My parents focused on raising adults, not neccessarly scholars. When I was 10 I booked my own doctor’s appointments. When I was 12 I could cook supper for the whole family. By 14 I held a job and did my own taxes.
I’m in a program with a lot of students raised by a whole spetra of tiger mothers, and I have never been so gratful for the way I was raised.
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And the best way to raise your kids is to find a balance between these two extremes. But I don’t think forcing them into doing something they don’t like is right. If parents put so much pressure on their children it can really have a damaging impact on their natural development. The problem is that those parents often realize the errors of their ways when it is too late.
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I think a lot of adults forget what it is like to be a kid. As a kid, most of the decisions are made for you. You spend most of your day in an institution where it is illegal for you to leave, where you are forced to sit through lessons that are often painfully boring, where the environment encourages social castes and bullying and the adults who are there to protect you rarely step in. When you finally get home, you have hours of homework, and maybe a few hours of recreation — IF YOU’RE LUCKY — before you go to bed and start it all over again.
As an adult, you may have a job that has a terrible commute or requires 60 hours a week or requires you to take work home, but you picked that job and you can choose to find another one. (By contrast, your child has no choice in schools or teachers and no power to change their situation.) You might have kids to take care of, but you chose to have kids (whether actively or passively). You might have to sit down and do the bills and make the doctor’s appointment, but you also have the ability to buy yourself a whim treat or schedule a vacation. You can play a videogame or watch some TV if you want to. People forget how just having that CHOICE is so self-empowering… all they remember is the burdens of adulthood and the freedom of childhood.
Saying that a kid isn’t mature enough to make those choices doesn’t take away the fact that not having choices is not fun. But more importantly, the ability to make good choices isn’t something that comes from getting a few years older, it’s something that comes from practice.
And yes, that practice comes from both a) allowing kids the freedom to make choices, and b) making sure they face the consequences of those choices, both positive and negative.
I am personally deeply fascinated by the Sudbury Valley school (which I read about in great detail long before I saw the quote posted here). The philosophy behind it is that kids are born ready to learn, and that play is just another way of learning about the world around them. Kids are not forced to learn to read, but they all eventually choose to because at some point they realize they cannot go further with their passions until they can read… and when they finally decide to learn, they pick it up much more quickly than kids who are forced. These kids graduate with a sense of self-competence… knowing that when they put their minds to something, they can accomplish it. And they do.
By contrast, I have to imagine that growing up in the house of a Tiger Mom would leave many kids feeling as though nothing they do is good enough… a feeling that could persist well into adulthood.
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I’d like to offer a slightly different perspective– I’m a kid who wish she’d been pushed a little harder.
I was a lousy student. I went to a fantastic public school, where I skipped class regularly (thank God for these afformentioned lax teachers.) I managed to fail not one, but 2 classes in high school, and only managed to pass math out of pity. Despite myself, I managed to edit the paper, play a varsity sport, and thank God, do well on standardized tests.
Thanks to stellar SATs and AP scores (again, rather unearned), I got into a great school– to the jealousy of the kids who had worked really hard for 4 years. It should have felt good, but it didn’t.
I wish that my parents had “pushed” me a bit and helped me “live up to my potential” (my poor teachers constant refrain). I have no illusions I’d have made it to Harvard or Cargenie Hall, but I would feel like I’d really given it my all, not coasted. Kids who coast get to go to a lot of parties, but that brings a whole other set of problems….
My parents loved me, but when I was going through school, they just didn’t have the time and energy to parent, for a variety of reasons. I dont blame them, but I cannot ever once remember sitting down with a parent to have me do my homework (or even ask if it was done!). They cared about my success, but as my mother said, “It’s up to the kid to drive themselves.” True, but maybe not starting in 4th grade!
I think this is a conversation about what parents spend their time on. It’s an investment to stick with your kid 4 or 5 hours every night getting homework done. I think an hour to 2 would suffice, but it is important to get out there every day on the kitchen table, making sure they are engaged. It’s really asking the parents to spend more time doing multiplication, not planning elaborate birthday parties.
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@Nancy L:
You said something about Asperger’s that really touched me: “If there’s one thing being the parent of a child with Asperger’s Syndrome has taught me, it’s that “demanding” that a kid does something may or may not result in compliance, but it rarely results in anything remarkable. However, when I guide my child into working with his particular gifts–many of which are skills that I barely understand myself, the results can be mind blowing and spectacular. It’s great to have high expectations of what a child can achieve, but even better not to limit your own vision of what those particular achievements can be.”
My boyfriend’s little brother has Asperger’s. I think this quote provides some profound insight as to how to guide a child with Asperger’s. Thank you so much. I shared this with him and I hope his family takes it to herat.
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