Over the past two years, I’ve received a lot of requests to write about investing in gold and silver. I’ve ignored these requests. For one, I feel unqualified to comment. For another, I’m afraid that anything I do say will just make people angry.
Last week I realized, however, that I don’t have to come at this as an expert. Because I’m not one. Instead, maybe we can have a discussion about the pros and cons of investing in gold while using my own opinion as a starting point. (And note that this article contains my opinion. It’s backed up by some facts, but it’s still my opinion. Don’t take everything that follows as gospel.)
Put simply: I’m not a fan of precious metals. I have 0% of my investment dollars in gold and silver, and I expect that to hold true for the foreseeable future. It’s my opinion that gold is a bad investment right now. Let me explain my reasoning.
The Gold Standard
Many folks dislike our current monetary system because it’s based on fiat currency. That is, a dollar is worth an arbitrary amount because the government says so. It’s not based on anything concrete. Plus, the government can add and remove cash from the money supply at will, which affects the dollar’s value.
U.S. dollars — and other world currencies — were once backed by gold. Under the Gold Standard, you could ask a bank to convert your paper money to gold at the legal rate (whatever that might be). In order for the government to print more money, they had to have the gold to back it.
Proponents of the “Gold Standard” argue that since the U.S. abandoned it in 1933, the dollar is more susceptible to inflation. That’s true. But the Gold Standard didn’t eliminate inflation, and it created other problems besides.
I am not an economist, and I struggle when it comes to economic theory, but my understanding is that much of the run-up to and aftermath of the Great Depression was thought to have been caused by the Gold Standard. Under the Gold Standard, currencies were much more susceptible to speculation and devaluation, which could lead to runs on the banks. That’s why the U.S. abandoned it. And it wasn’t only the United States that did so. Not a single country in the world uses the Gold Standard anymore. Until recently, most economists and politicians considered it a deserved relic.
Defense Against Disaster
Some proponents of gold like it because they say it has intrinsic value. That is, they say that gold has value in and of itself. (Kevin McElroy does a good job explaining this concept at The Street.)
Goldbugs would have you believe that when diaster strikes — we enter a post-oil economy, we’re nuked by terrorists, dinosaurs escape from Isla Nublar — that paper money will be worthless and we’ll all be trading in gold. Because of its intrinsic value, it’ll become a form of currency. I’m not convinced.
Let’s say I’m a shopkeeper. I have a minimart and I have a shotgun to defend my stock from looters. If we’re in some sort of post-crisis world where dinosaurs roam the earth, I doubt I’ll want your gold. It’ll be just as worthless (or as valuable) as paper money. Why? Because in reality, gold too is fundamentally a fiat currency. That is, people have assigned it an arbitrary value. That value vanishes in a crisis, just as the value of paper money does.
If I’m a shop owner in this situation — or I’m your neighbor with a vegetable garden — I’m going to be want to be paid with something real, something like a carton of eggs or some shells for my shotgun.
In other words, I don’t think much of gold’s intrinsic value. To me, assigning value to gold is just as arbitrary as assigning value to anything else. If we’re in a real crisis, I’m not convinced that gold’s going to save the day. (Again, this is my opinion. You may disagree.)
My first two objections to owning gold are based purely on theory. Nobody knows for sure what would happen if we returned to the Gold Standard. If dinosaurs roamed the earth, we’d have more important things to worry about than the form of our currency. But I have other, more concrete objections to investing in gold right now.
The Gold Bubble
As I write this, gold is hovering at about $1500 per ounce, which is just off its April high of $1550 per ounce. But that’s not only its April high; that’s an all-time high for the stuff. (As near as I can calculate, gold’s inflation-adjusted high was about $2500 per ounce back in 1973.)
Gold bottomed out in 1999 at $252.80 (an inflation-adjusted $327.61). Since then, the gains have been impressive, with returns of over 20% nearly every year. Great! We should all jump in and buy, right? Well, I’m not so sure.
Let’s think for a moment. Have we seen any price bubbles before? Maybe even in recent history? Over the past fifteen years, we’ve seen three bubble economies:
- First, the boom in tech stocks in the late 1990s.
- Then the run-up of housing prices in the early 2000s.
- Finally, the second stock market bubble in the middle of the last decade.
During these bubbles, the proponents of each investment made compelling cases for why “this time is different!” More people bought stocks and homes, which drove prices up, which made the investments look more appealing, which meant more people bought, which drove prices up until…
The bubble burst.
The bubble always bursts.
During the bubble, there are plenty of snake-oil salesmen with silvery tongues who will try to convince you that this isn’t actually a bubble, that this is where prices are meant to be. Many of these people actually believe what they say. (Though, to be clear, some don’t. Some know exactly what they’re doing.)
After the bubble, there are a lot of people wondering what happened to their wealth.
Right now, the price of gold is high because the demand for gold is high. Over the past decade, our country’s economic policies have created a fear of the future, which means many people are clinging to gold as a sort of insurance. Gold prices are rising. How high will they go? Peter Schiff thinks that gold will hit $5000 an ounce. I’m skeptical. I think gold is more likely to see $500 an ounce in the next decade than $5000 an ounce.
But, hey — I could be wrong. Maybe the gold bubble isn’t a bubble. Maybe prices won’t come crashing down as they did for real estate and stocks. You need to decide that for yourself. Right now, I’m willing to bet on the side of history.
You have no idea how much work goes into a post like this. I do hours of research and write thousands of words before cutting back to the essentials. And with topics involving lots of data, I go down all sorts of rabbit holes while playing with numbers.
For instance, on a whim, I decided to check the effect of the last few Presidential administrations on the price of gold. This is mostly meaningless, but it’s still interesting to see.
| Inauguration | Gold price | President | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| 01/20/77 | $133.10 | Carter | +322% |
| 01/20/81 | $562.00 | Reagan | -28% |
| 01/20/89 | $405.50 | H.W. Bush | -19% |
| 01/20/93 | $329.00 | Clinton | -20% |
| 01/20/01 | $264.00 | W. Bush | +223% |
| 01/20/09 | $853.25 | Obama | +76% |
| 05/09/11 | $1502.00 | ||
The Carter numbers are odd. Nearly all of that 322% increase came during the last few months of his administration. Again, I’m not saying this data has any meaning. I just find it fascinating. If you want to fritter away time by playing with numbers, you may find this page of daily gold prices handy.
(And that’s an hour of my time wasted that could have been used to write another article about clipping coupons or budgeting.)
The Path of History
For me, though, the most compelling case against investing in gold can be found in the historical record. Goldbugs like to praise the stuff because it’s a “hedge against inflation”. Gold tends to retain its value as prices rise. That’s true — but long term, that’s all that it does.
There are other things that tend to keep their value during inflation, if that’s what you want. Real estate, for one. And TIPS (treasury inflation protected securities, a type of bond). And maybe even savings accounts.
If you’re wanting to fight inflation, there are better options. In his book Stocks for the Long Run, Jeremy Siegel crunched the numbers to find the historical performance of several common investments. The results? Since 1926:
- Gold has a real return (meaning: “after-inflation return”) of about 1%.
- By my calculations (not Siegel’s), real estate also has a real return of about 1%.
- Bonds have returned about 5%, or about 2.4% after inflation.
- Stocks have returned an average of about 10% per year, and a real return of about 6.8%.
So, if you want to use gold as a hedge against inflation, go ahead. But real estate might be just as effective — and that bubble has popped already. Of course, past returns are no guarantee of future results. Perhaps over the next thirty years, gold will average an annual return of 6.8% and stocks an average return of 1%. Nobody knows for sure.
Before I leave this section, I want to share a quote from Siegel’s Stocks for the Long Run:
Ironically, despite the inflationary basis of a paper money system, well-preserved paper money from the early nineteenth century is worth many times its face value on the collectors’ market, far surpassing gold bullion as a long-term investment. An old mattress found containing nineteenth-century paper money is a better find for an antiquarian than an equivalent sum hoarded in gold bars!
There’s no real take-away from that, I suppose. It’s just funny.
Personal Experience
You might think that the current gold fever is the first of its kind. Actually, it’s not. Gold fever seems to strike every 20-30 years, whenever there’s a run-up in prices. The last time I remember it was when I was a boy.
My father became a goldbug during the economic crisis of the late seventies and early eighties. He was convinced gold prices were going to soar permanently. The things he said then are just like the things I hear the goldbugs saying today. It’s like history repeating itself. Though he could barely afford to put food on the table, during 1980 Dad found a way to buy ten gold coins at roughly $500 each. (Plus whatever commission he paid.) He loved to show them to us kids: “Look at my pretty pieces of metal.” Dad had no savings or investments, so these coins were his nest egg.
The eggs turned out to be rotten.
As I recall, Dad sold a few of the coins almost immediately because we needed the money to buy food and clothing. No worries. The price of gold had risen, so he made a little profit. But he held the rest of his “pretty pieces of metal” until the mid 1980s, when he decided to start the custom box company. Then he sold the coins for just over $300 an ounce. He lost about a thousand dollars on what he thought was a sure thing. The sure thing turned out to be a bubble.
Fore more interesting stories about investing in gold, check out:
- Oregon Live: Gold may glitter, but as an investment, it carries peril
- I Will Teach You to Be Rich: This guy is going to regret his life in 15 years
- AAII Journal: Gold’s investment attributes (membership required)
- Crawling Road: Gold ownership in an investment portfolio
If you know of good articles about investing in gold, please share them in the comments.
Draw Your Own Conclusions
For all of these reasons, I’m not investing in gold. Not right now. Not at these prices. Does that mean you should avoid investing in gold? Not at all. It means you should do your own reading and research and find out what the best decision is for you. Don’t just take my word for it, but don’t be persuaded by a bunch of ads on radio or TV, either.
Whether you’re for or against gold as an investment option, I encourage you to read rational, well-written articles from the other side. Try to figure out where they’re coming from. Does the opposition make some good points? After reading another opinion, do you think there might be times that you could see their point of view?
In my case, I’m not completely against investing in gold. In fact, I’m persuaded that it generally makes sense to have some in your investment portfolio as part of a strategy of diversification. In time, I plan to add a little. Eventually. (But not now, not when prices are at record highs.) However, with one exception — see the sidebar below — I can’t imagine ever devoting more than five percent of my portfolio to the stuff. (And even that seems high.)
My opinion is that we really are in a gold bubble, and that the bubble will eventually burst. When it does, I’ll buy a bit of gold. Until then, I’m happy to watch the roller coaster ride from the outside.
One investment strategy that I find appealing uses a lot of gold. This is the permanent portfolio, as developed by Harry Browne. The permanent portfolio calls for a fixed asset allocation:
- 25% in U.S. stocks, to provide a strong return during times of prosperity
- 25% in long-term U.S. Treasury bonds, which do well during prosperity and deflation
- 25% in cash (a money-market fund) to hedge against recession
- 25% in gold to provide protection during periods of inflation
If I were to choose any other investment plan than the one I have, it’d be this one. I find the arguments compelling, and wouldn’t be surprised if five years from now, I’d adopted this strategy.
For more on the permanent portfolio — including how to invest in gold — visit Crawling Road.
Reminder: This is another one of those topics that tends to inspire passionate debate. It’s fine to disagree with each other (and with me), but please keep it civil. Sound fair?
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I haven’t considered gold for an investment in over a year. Why would anyone invest in something that’s at it’s value is at an all-time high?
Sure, I think it has a potential to increase in value, but since it’s at it’s peak now, it’s just a foolish investment.
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If you’re that sure of that L&MF, why not invest in a reverse gold stock? I’m down about 30% on the one that I put money into last year. Teaches me to stick to industries that I know. If the analysts that do this stuff for a living 12 hours a day get stuff wrong based on what they “know”, the small individual investor has to leverage whatever they can – and stay out of what they can’t know.
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I would not invest in reverse gold either. It’s too uncertain – it’s almost like the dot com era. There is enough hype to drive the prices up, but one of these days, the gold craze is going to pop, and leave a lot of people with nothing to show for it.
I’m staying out of this craze all together.
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Couldn’t agree more!
The reality is that leverage should afford many people the opportunity to get excessively wealthy in commodities. Look at the Forbes 400–most didn’t make it in this highly levered casino.
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“Why would anyone invest in something that’s at it’s value is at an all-time high?”
The price of gold went from ~$1000 to ~$1550 in about a year and a half, making new all time highs all along the way. Would your thought process be the same when it was making new highs at $1000? You’d have missed out on a 50% gain.
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I also read Siegel’s Stocks for the Long Run and decided against investing directly in gold after reading what he had to say.
I am, however, invested in gold and silver (and other metals) indirectly through my investments. I know a few of the ETFs that I have hold shares in mining companies.
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The US government does not dictate the value of the dollar, it is set by exchange rates, interest rates, economy, and a bunch of other factors. The US dollar floats. The Chinese Yuan is set pegged to the dollar, as are a few other currencies. But ultimately any currency is worth what it will buy, not what the government says. Just ask the people of Zimbabwe.
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That is where you are wrong. The government has complete control on the value of the dollar. The have the FED which can print as many dollars as they want which will in itself decrease the value of the dollar.
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the FED is not a government entity. it is a privately held mega bank.
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Actually, it’s both public and private.
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Its more public than private
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What a fantastic and well-research article! One of the best I’ve read.
With any bubble, there’s opportunities for profit-taking but it is risky. Gold is definitely a short-term speculative investment right now, not long-term.
Another point to make about gold… NPR morning edition recently had a story about how the gold bubble is making mines that are not usually profitable worth mining… if that keeps up, the supply of new gold is going to bring prices down.
I also wonder what Glenn Beck going off the tv is going to do to the price of gold. Might be a good time to short it.
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Thank you, J.D.
A sane conversation on gold, and why it’s not the panacea.
Does it make sense if I say I always had misgivings about the gold rush, but could never really put my finger on it? The proponents just make it sound too good to be true… and we know how that works.
Your history recap here is very interesting.
Also, you said that people don’t realize how much work goes into a post like this… it’s just a demonstration of the value you provide, amigo!
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I totally agree with Aaron. Gold didn’t pass my sniff test, and now I’m relieved to see that others feel the same way.
Also, JD, none of your time tunneling through rabbit holes is wasted. You now have expansive knowledge which will undoubtedly come in handy soon. Probably as soon as your next article or even interview.
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We have some money in gold coins and perhaps every other week I contemplate selling them. The problem with gold is that there is a pretty high “illiquidity discount” for most people. It just isn’t easy to convert it to cash. In Atlanta, I don’t know of a single locaiton that will buy it back with out taking a pretty significant cut. Additionally I store ours in a lock box, so if the dinosaurs do return, I have to hope that the bank is open!
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Hi Scott! I’m in Atlanta and sold some gold to a goldsmith. I figure, since they are an end user I will get a good price. It’s worth it to at least call and ask, they will want to know the total weight and karat you want to sell. This place is very straightforward, read their paragraph about the percent value they will pay for various types of gold:
http://www.bthjewelers.com/services/
They’ll pay 93% of the value for pure bullion gold (not sure if that is what gold coins are), or 80% of the value based on karat.
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I think people are attracted to gold because it’s a concrete investment. Most people get excited when gold prices go up and think about hocking that jewelry their grandmother left them and their wedding ring from a defunct marriage.
It’s not too great a leap from that emotional excitement to justifying it as an investment. After all, most human decisions are not rational, they’re emotional.
Interesting post!
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Good for you, J.D., for not buying into the hype, thinking for yourself, and encouraging everyone else to do the same. Finally, a reasonable contribution to the conversation about gold.
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I have gold and silver ETF funds and have had the wisdom to but low and sell high. While they make up only 2% of my total investment strategy, it was a way to diversify years ago when stocks were going no where.
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I agree with your view and the current gold bubble. Fortunately I was able to get in on gold a few years ago and have watched my investment soar sky high However, I currently have been looking at it with my finger on the sell button due to the feeling that the bubble is about to be popped. Once it does however I will probably buy it back up again and continue to hold for the long term.
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Thanks for a really interesting piece. I’ve never understood the complaint against ‘fiat money’. All money is arbitrary, something we just agree has value because that makes it useful to society. NPR had a fascinating story on giant stone money on the Planet Money program; it’s still in use among a small group. Those folks use regular money too, but because the giant stone money still has agreed value, it’s still a useful currency. Looks like this will be one of thoose posts where I check out every one of the links. Good stuff.
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The easiest way to understand the objection to fiat money is by being familiar with how most economists define money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money
One of the properties of money is that it’s a “store of value”
The ability of governments to print fiat money makes it less able to store value.
Gold, on the other hand, cannot be devalued the same way (I believe the supply increases by 1-2% per year), so it fits the definition of money much better than paper money.
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Something’s worth only how much you’re willing to pay for it. There’s no use for gold in a zombiepocalypse. Shotguns shells and samurai swords would be the new gold. I agree with you –gold is no safer than paper money.
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Shane, I disagree.
Gold jewelry and coins make a *tinkle tinkle* sound when they hit the ground, and can therefore be tossed on the ground in order to distract zombies from your location. Shiny gold can be used like a mirror as either a communication device or a zombie distracting device. And if you happen to have gold bricks, or a bunch of gold melted together by global warming, you can use it as a projectile weapon.
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Additional: In a pinch, you could make bullets out of gold. Or swords, although it’s inadvisable to make a sword out of a soft metal.
And as an aside – in case of a werewolf apocalypse (or certain types of vampires), won’t you feel stupid that you didn’t invest in silver?
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LOL – I like the creativity. You all seem to have good survival instincts!
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Thanks Andy! I just watch way too many zombie movies.
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I don’t have any money in precious metals and was actually planning to short silver, but it looks like I missed out on that opportunity after last week.
I can’t understand how people want to keep plowing money into gold and silver when they are reaching all-time highs…
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I have several hundred dollars in silver coins -no value beyond their silver(et- one friend suggested that as more people melt down the coins – mine may have value as they become more rare). I do not need to sell them so I just keep them. I inherited them -I suppose at some point I will have to decide what to do with thme
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I’d be happy to take them off your hands!
Seriously, if you don’t want them, find a dealer and sell them.
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How do you find a dealer?
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Go online, do some research. Ideally, you’ll find someone close to where you live who is also a member of the ANA (American Numismatic Association).
Take your time, don’t take the first offer and do as much homework as possible on the coins you have. Don’t be afraid to get a second opinion.
Remember, too, that coins, like everything else can decrease in value.
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JD, one of the best pieces you have ever put together. Well researched, balanced, and a reasoned conclusion based on your work. Good work!
On the article itself, I thought Jim Cramer’s views on it from a while ago were interesting (please don’t throw me off the boards!
). Basically, he said gold is going up simply because that is what is done in times like these. Sadly, the market does a lot more of this programmatic trading than following real logic. However, this IS a bubble (and not just gold but all commodities) and it will die horribly.
*sigh* Didn’t we just go through this same thing earlier?
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Well written, but I respectfully disagree.
Anybody that chooses an equal amount of stocks to their precious metal investments had better plan on living a LONG time. You talk about bubbles and breaking – the stock market has burst many more times than gold or silver.
I’m into silver. It has tripled in the last 2 years and I’m offloading it as we speak, waiting for the settling that will inevitably come.
But I’m done with stocks and bonds, period. My retirement plan? 12 jumbo CDs, 1 maturing every month. Yeah, I can live poor interest better than I can with the Ponzi scheme called the stock market.
Here’s my take on the stock market:
Say you walk a specific route to work every day and pass under a tree. In the tree are monkeys, lots of them and all different sizes. They are tossing wads of cash about and saying “C’mon up!” … And eventually, you do. And you start slinging your wad of cash with the other monkeys.
But one day, things are different. All the big monkeys look at each other, nod, and shake the branches – and all the small monkeys (you and me) fall out and hit the concrete sidewalk. OUCH! You look up and ask them why they did that —
And they say ‘Sorry, nobody could foresee the (insert creative excuse here, planes flying into the twin towers, etc).’
So you pick yourself up and go back to your normal routine. But still, everyday you walk under the monkey tree and there are still plenty of monkeys tossing $ around. And they say “C’mon up!” … But you say no thanks, last time was too painful.
Every day … every day you walk under that tree.
And you know what? Sooner or later, it gets to you – and you are STUPID enough to climb back up in that tree.
Color me as an educated monkey – and I’ll NEVER climb back up in that tree again.
No thanks. I’ll sit on my jumbos and keep saving until I buy another … and another … and another. Yes, I know inflation will eat into their value. Yes, I know stocks HISTORICALLY outperform bank interest.
But I’m one dumb monkey, so I’ll take the guarantee rather than try to beat (remember the golden rule – those with the gold make the rules) the big monkeys at their own game.
Silver. And Gold. Right now, don’t buy – prices are too close to the bubble breaking.
But in the future, after the settlements: You should be at least 10% into metals.
Hey, what do I know? I’m just another monkey.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64fbqYQY
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I respectfully disagree.
Over the very long run, the stock market averages between 7-8% after inflation. This number varies depending on the source. How is this a Ponzi scheme, a trick, or a tree full of Monkeys?
Besides, with the proper allocation among stocks, bonds, reits, commodiies, etc. This will smooth out the large dips and gains that are inevitable.
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How is this a Ponzi scheme? And you don’t think the monkey comparison is valid?
First, to run a Ponzi scheme, you have to create something people think is valuable so you can sell it to them, regardless if it is worth something or not. This is known as “stock.”
What creates value in stock? Nothing. A bunch of people come together and print ink on paper and tell you it has value.
And you believe it. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. How do you know? You don’t.
So you throw your money into the gambling pit. But you don’t make the rules and you are probably a rank amateur, so it is easy to lose money. (I did, btw. On “safe” stocks, too.)
Meanwhile, somebody has your money (a rich person getting richer) and YOU are sweating it out. You make a dollar one day and lose two the next, hoping you will make 3 tomorrow.
Meanwhile, somebody is “creating” more value by printing more ink on paper and selling it to you (or others).
And you don’t think this is another version of the same old game?
About the monkeys: The big ones have shaken the little ones out of the tree many, many times. Stick your head in the sand all you want, but it WILL happen again … and again … and again. If you are stupid enough to climb back up in the monkey tree, I have no sympathy for you.
Or perhaps, you make your living by selling these valuable instruments to people and somehow feel uncomfortable when somebody describes your business in less than glowing terms?
I’m ultra-conservative, if you can’t tell. No more monkey trees. And I’ll retire just fine without consulting the DOW or NASDAQ indexes, thank you.
Here’s the real golden rule: Live WELL below your means and SAVE, SAVE, SAVE.
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Actually, that isn’t true. When you buy a stock you become part owner in a company. The price rises and falls with the success of the company.
You can argue that stocks are based on what people think a company is worth (a valid argument). But you must also consider that in the information age, everyone knows everything at the exact same time. The amount of people who buy a stock and sell a stock are equivalent. There are a fixed number of shares until the company decides to issue more of them, so this boils down to a barter type system.
Investing in the stock market is meant to be a long term approach. Ups and downs dont matter in the long run because they true-up to actual value. Read something by John Bogle.
The first rule of investing is buy 4 index funds (ideally 1 large cap, one small cap, one bond, and one intl ex-us) in whatever ratio you are comfortable with.
The second rule is to make your investments deposits automatically into your appropriate index funds.
The third rule is to lose the password to your account.
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“What creates value in stock? Nothing. A bunch of people come together and print ink on paper and tell you it has value.”
Actually the profit/earnings (P/E) ratio determines the value of a stock. A companies’ stock can go up if it becomes more profitable. Or to keep it in simple “monkey” terms: stock is valuable because it represents people working in a factory, producing something. Creating value.
Gold on the other hand (much like real estate) just “sits” there. There might be a bubble or a crash, but in itself it “creates” zero value.
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“What creates value in stock?”
The fact that it represents an ownership share in a company, and entitles you to a share of the profits (in good times), a share of the assets (in bad times), and a say in how the company is run.
You seem to be saying that stocks only have value because everyone agrees they do, similar to the fiat currency argument. That’s absurd, and overlooks that companies generate real value, in the form of actual cash profits you can take to the bank.
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I like the way you think. I don’t think it’s a matter of disagree or agree, it’s a matter of how much risk you are comfortable with. You and I are very uncomfortable with ANY risk of our hard-earned dollars. Others are willing to risk it for what is on average a better return on investment. On average being the key words as you point out. I love your “shakedown” analogy.
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Here is another article on moneylife.in that sheds some light on the prices of gold for Indians. I think it also applies to other countries besides India.
Are gold prices infallible?: http://www.moneylife.in/article/are-gold-prices-infallible/8606.html
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Thanks Rohit for the link to the article on gold prices in India. I was wondering why , in India we’ve never seen a slump in gold prices although JD says it fell in the US.
As an Indian woman, the gold my parents gave me does make me feel more secure and the value has gone up more than 15 times in these 25 years. I believe in buying gold, the real kind, not ETFs.
JD, great article and so well researched. Thank you
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I get tired of how much you think you must clarify that this is only your opinion, and that things could be different in the future, and blah blah blah. It seems like half of this article is that type of padding. Say it once at the beginning or end if you really feel the need, and leave it be so that the real content of the article isn’t continually tripped up.
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I understand this sentiment. There is no reason to repeat so many times that you are not 100% sure. I know why you would do it, but once really is enough.
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I agree. That was tiresome.
And even though once is enough for many, this is a blog and unless you repeat yourself many times over, the comments will come back accusing you of being a pseudo-expert, or argue your conclusions criticizing your dogmatism, etc. So, I guess I understand where JD is coming from.
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Yes yes. I agree. And normally I would only mention this once in an article. But I know from experience that topics like this set people on edge, and if I don’t qualify myself again and again, people will accuse me of trying to be an expert, or of making stuff up, or whatever. So, this time (and you’ll note I don’t always do this), I was careful to add the disclaimer several times. Even I found it tiresome. But I also thought it was necessary.
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For a non-economist, I think you sum it up quite nicely.
I never understood Gold Standard proponents, although I believe I understand the flaw in their thinking. They dislike non-value currency because the value is arbitrary. Yes, it is true that the international markets determine the value of currencies like the U.S. dollar (Just like gold), but the government has the power to issue more currency whenever they wish (just about), effectively decreasing this value.
On the other hand, the govt. can never just “issue more gold.” Therefore, to goldists (may I call you this?), gold’s value is completely determined by market value and not subject to govt. whims.
Flaw #1: While you can’t print more gold, gold production / mining is regulated and controlled by many governments, and worse, by certain companies in the style of diamonds (limiting harvests, etc.). So don’t fool yourself that gold is not an artificially controlled substances. Which brings me to…
Flaw #2: Gold has intrinsic value. The flaw here is that the only intrinsic value it has is what we assign to it. You touched on this in your article. Gold is a relatively rare element, so it must be valuable, right? Well, picture of penguins hand-drawn by me are rare too*, so they must be insanely valuable, right? No, because nobody is willing to pay for my pictures, unfortunately.
Currency is created for trading value. The currency I have came at the expense of the value I provide through my job, intellect, etc. So when I purchase something, I am trading value. Goldists agree here, and get caught up with this. They think because we are trading value, then the intermediate step, currency, should have intrinsic value as well, otherwise you are left holding something worthless until you make a purchase.
The problem is that any value is subjective, including the very things currency is meant to trade for, so the value of the currency itself is subjective, and therefore, arbitrary (with respect to social forces).
* Ok, you caught me. They’re not that rare.
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Gold has been determined by people for thousands of years as a valid form of money. Fiat money has shown throughout history to destroy the country that went to it. Look at the history of the US since we left the gold standard in 1970′s. Oil has gone up dramatically, prices for almost all goods has increased and the value of the dollar has lost almost 90% of its value. The value of a currency needs to based on something and gold over the years has been the thing people value.
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Exactly!!!!
That’s why I’m accumulating 55 gal drums of crude and burying them in my back yard. I try to diversify with some vegetable oil and wd-40 with no more than 5% of my oil portfolio in Olive Oil (virgin, of course!) When everyone’s throwing their gold and silver in the streets, I’ll be the only one driving by just smiling and waving, boys…just smiling and waving.
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You seem to misunderstand “intrinsic value” concept.
Paper doesn’t have value because you sat at a desk for 3 hours in order to get it. Nobody cares how you earned money (well, the police or your spouse might). Where it took you one hour of consulting work to earn $50, it might take the WalMart greeter five hours to earn that much money.
Does that make your $50 more valuable than the greeters? No, it does not.
The $50 doesn’t have value because of how you worked for it, it has value because it has “Fifty Dollars” printed on it, and someone else will give you fifty dollars worth of something else for it.
It has pseudo-intrinsic value.
So in a roundabout way, you’re agreeing with the goldists.
Meanwhile, gold has intrinsic value because it has multiple uses, just like butter, copper, diamonds, water, etc.
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I mean intrinsic in the precise sense, as you would use it in mathematics, meaning “an inherent property”. I am arguing that nothing has intrinsic value (although philosophers argue this point about life), not gold and especially not printed money.
In such a world, there’s no perfect currency. Gold is better than paper money, but it is hardly the solution to all our economic problems as some make it out to be.
You argue my point exactly. People don’t care how I “made my money”. With each transaction, I am trading some amount of my (perceived) value for the (perceived) value of others. The currency is just an intermediary, and as I said, there doesn’t seem to be a perfect one.
You can call it pseudo-intrinsic, but that’s a wishy-washy term.
I dunno about gold having “multiple uses”. We assign it value cause animals like shiny objects.
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JD – you da man and that was awesome. Thanks for scouting out the rabbit holes for us.
So now you’ve got me curious – there are so many scams out there when it comes to selling gold. Any thoughts on the best way to “cash in?” I’m wondering if eBay might the fairest way to go…
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Katy, I sold mine to a goldsmith. I don’t know if this is the best option, but I assumed that an end-user is going to give me a better price than some “WE BUY GOLD” operation.
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Katy,
I am an auctioneer and have coin only auctions 6-7 times a year. I have helped many people sell both gold and silver at prices well above what you get at the “WE BUY GOLD” places and since most auctioneers work on commission the more you make the more we make is always a good bet I will get as much for you as I can. Call an auctioneer that specializes in coins. One estate was offered 16000 for their silver from a dealer and we got 28000 on the auction.
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A very timely piece J.D.
The fact that silver plummeted from $50+/oz to $38/oz in the last few weeks makes me think that there are a lot of large scale investors with vested interests taking profits from bets with precious metals (particularly silver) that will leave naive amateur investors nursing their wounds.
No crazy conspiracy theories here, but the meteoric rise in silver prices stinks of manipulation (not by secret cartels, but by greedy investors!)
Prior to the recent bull run, changes in value of more than 1-2%/day were the norm. I have no interest in buying until this settles down again!
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Professional investors make a lot of their money off of the foolishness of amateurs. Not off of manipulation, but good business principals.
If you are willing to buy something for more than its worth, it is your folly not the guy who sold it to you. He’s selling based on the understanding that people WANT his product. Its not his fault you overvalued it.
Buy the market. Look up JD’s index fund articles. While an index fund never beats the average for funds, it doesn’t lose by much either (if at all). It merely performs average. 6-8% return before inflation is fine by me. Its better than anything else out there. And I’m not gambling my success on a single company, but the economy at large.
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Not sure I agree.
While amateurs are definitely foolish (and greedy) on occasions, it tends to be because they’re following momentum in markets inflated by investors looking to take the money and run at the first sign of a real dip.
Hence my comments about manipulation.
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The Great Depression was CAUSED by the abandonment of the gold standard. Major countries abandoned the standard during WWI which lead to huge imbalances. How else were they going to fund war? They had to keep the printing presses going to keep the tanks rolling out.
Do yourself a favor and read “America’s Great Depression” by Murray Rothbard. He clearly shows that the Fed’s increase of the money supply in the “roaring 20′s” put the economy on a seemingly endless path to prosperity – that subsequently collapsed and put us in the Great Depression.
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finally a sane person in these comments
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How funny… I was just thinking that this topic seems to attract a lot of crazies.
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I’m always surprised to see people who think that they know it better than every single government in the world.
This is a great series on the pros and cons of the Gold Standard. I won’t give away the conclusion, but here is a hint: we shouldn’t go back 100 years.
http://www.npr.org/templates/archives/archive.php?thingId=133252308
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You should really think why governments would want to remove the gold standard. As soon as the get rid of this barrier they can print money to their hearts desires to pay for things that wouldn’t be possible on a gold standard. Hence the huge debt crisis almost all countries are facing right now. On the gold standard, governments where restrained on what the could spend but as soon as the restriction was gone they started printing money like it was their job. Notice how the dollar has lost 95% of its values since we left the gold standard. This also allows countries to go to war easier because they can jsut print the money to finance the wars. And to anyone who belives the gold standard caused the great depression they should really look at the facts or read a book or too. I would start with Rothbards book first.
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The facts I’ve read suggest the opposite of what you are saying. It seems like most economists agree that the gold standard is rightfully abandoned. I guess we can go back and forth on this, but tell me this: if the Gold Standard is such a great idea, why isn’t there a single democracy in the world on it?
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That is easy to answer. Its because leaving the gold standard allows government to spend on things that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford. They wouldn’t be able to start wars all the time or afford all the welfare programs that all the countries have. I’ll ask you a thing, what has happened to all the nations/countries that had a fiat system in history? Rome, Greek, Egyptians to just name a few.
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Your time and diligence are never wasted, JD. That’s what makes GRS better than the rest. Although this article debuts today, it lasts forever, so every time you have occasion to refer someone to it later, that’s a return on the investment of time you put in. And every time one of us refers to it, all the better. Keep up the good work.
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Very interesting. I tend to feel that when you’re investing in gold you’re investing in the market’s perception of gold as a safe hedge against inflation since gold has minimal inherent value as an investment. There are industrial and jewelery applications for it but why aren’t you investing in companies around those industries or mining if you want to capture their gains or losses? Gold is too volatile and doesn’t produce income or products to be a good investment for my taste.
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William Bernstein (the excellent author of The Intelligent Asset Allocator, The Four Pillars of Investing, etc.) had a good post on the Permanent Portfolio. I suggest you check it out: http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/0adhoc/harry.htm
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Great article! Thanks for explaining it all so clearly — around here there are constant radio commercials for gold-selling services, and they make me cringe with the extreme scare tactics they use.
As for the “Carter bubble,” given that you say most of the rise came toward the end of his presidency, I wonder how much the Iran hostage crisis played a role.
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The cockeyed.com story on “Cash4gold” is a fun read. It’ll reinforce your opinion of those radio commercials.
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My husband and I were just talking about this last night.
I’m a coin collector (in a small way) but have never been a gold bug. There are a few gold coins I would like to have, but it’s the coin rather than the gold that I want.
I’ve been predicting a silver bubble which seems to have happened last week; I think silver will stabilize now, but that’s just my opinion.
The best way to buy metals is in mining stock.
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We’re kind of accidental coin collectors too. My dad bought my son a 1oz gold coin when he was born. Since that was 3 years ago, it has appreciated considerably and I’m sitting here wondering if I should sell it to get the most return for my kid.
In the end though, I think the coin is neater than the money, and it’ll probably be one of those things he keeps forever. At least until he runs into an emergency and has to sell it at rock bottom prices. :-/
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Buying gold is not an investment, it’s insurance. If you think of it as buying insurance, then the argument points you consider change. For one, it might not matter that it doesn’t provide a real (after-inflation) return. In fact insurance costs money.
Now, when you’re buying insurance you have to ask yourself if you are getting good insurance for your money. Everything you wrote in this post suggests that gold is too expensive for the level of insurance you’re getting. TIPs would seem to provide more cost-effective insurance, even better because they simultaneously insure against inflation and deflation.
The one scenario that gold insures most effectively for is the collapse of a currency and rampant government corruption, like happened in Argentina and described in this post: http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2008/10/thoughts-on-urban-survival-2005.html In that scenario, I’d guess that only physical metal is any good. If you want this kind of insurance, I’d say it is pretty clear that you’re going to have to buy actual metal, not “shares”.
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Nonsense. Gold isnt insurance at all. In fact its nothing like insurance. If you are truly worried about your own currency collapsing you could just as easily use the forex or even just invest in a foreign stock exchange.
Gold is a commodity, thus its real value will never go up. Basically, a basket of food will cost roughly the same amount of gold no matter what happens to your currency(assuming there isnt a catastrophic food shortage or something).
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Is that really true? From JD’s chart in the article, gold is up 76% since Obama took office. I know there has been inflation but I don’t think McDonald’s prices are up 76% in that time… seems to me you could buy more food with an ounce of gold now that you could have in 2009. Maybe there is a long-term correlation but gold is clearly subject to bubbles just like everything else.
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Well, there is obviously going to be short-term spikes, but its still a commodity. People became deathly afraid of inflation, and had a surplus of investment money to use(since they unwisely sold their stocks low). So they bought gold. A barrage of infomercials probably helped as well. However, if you think that gold will increase in value above and beyond inflation for a long term, like 25 years, then you’re nuts. What are you basing that off of? Is gold going to become more rare? Will it be used more in manufacturing? What information leads you to believe gold will increase in value, other than doomsayers and whack jobs?
Put it this way, if you had invested in Ford stock instead of gold, you would have gotten a 1000% return instead of the 76% you got with gold. People love to point how well gold has done, yet they omit the obvious fact that everything did well in that same time.
Gold has, and always will underperform other investment instruments.
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Gold is insurance only if you can time the market. Unfortunately, that is impractical (if not impossible). Its not insurance when you are betting short term. Its called portfolio tilting.
Insurance is splitting your portfolio 50/50 bonds/stocks. Stocks are good in times of prosperity (i.e. when interest rates are high) and bonds are good when times are tough (when interest rates are low).
When you use it as a hedge, possible. But what if there is a sell off on gold and the economy doesn’t improve. Where is the hedge?
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Thank you for the time and effort you devoted to researching and writing this post, J.D. You’ve put forward a strong case against investing in gold, and I also appreciated that you mentioned the Permanent Portfolio as a reasonable strategy for including gold in one’s investments. I also appreciated that you included a mention of Crawling Road, whose piece on gold ownership represents a reasoned, rational approach that is neither hysterically enamored with gold and nor vehemently opposed to it.
I do have one point to add regarding owing gold in a crisis. People on both sides of the issue allude to doomsday scenarios–as you did–when arguing the merits of owning gold. But it doesn’t take a dinosaur escape for gold to be useful in dire straits. Specifically, it’s proven tone useful to own gold during the economic crises in Argentina (around 2001, I think?) and Iceland (2008). I think Crawling Road goes into detail on this.
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Excellent article. I also don’t much like gold as an investment, for most of the reasons you cite above.
The gold standard is very workable however. No governments currently are on one now as you mention. But the gold standard is disliked by governments NOT because it can cause depressions or whatever, but because it limits that governments ability to debase it’s own currency.
If a government can’t “print money” to pay off it’s own debts, then its borrowing capacity is
becomes much more limited. Limited borrowing = limited government spending and growth.
I encourage all readers to take a look at what Austrian School of Economics has to say about what causes booms and busts, and how returning to a gold standard in some form would increase wealth and prosperity.
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This comment is not endorsed by standard mainstream economists. As JD rightly pointed out in his article, the gold standard would be disastrous in today’s economy, and did indeed make the Great Depression greater than it needed to be. There are a couple of excellent books, one by Eichengreen and one by Temin, that discuss the problems that the Gold Standard caused for the Great Depression.
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It is, however, endorsed by many an armchair economist. Who, by the way, cannot backup their claims with effective arguments nor historical facts.
Although I put little faith in professional economists. I read a great comment once on some website, I’ll paraphrase:
“I remember when I was in college. All the smartest students went into the sciences. All the average students became doctors. Everyone else, they went into economics.”
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Yet those standard economist never saw the dot.com bubble or the real estate bubble. Funny how the Austrian economist saw both coming and their economic thought actually explains all the booms and bust in the history of the US. But hey, lets not listen to the people who got it right. Keynesian economics has been wrong and will continue to run the US into the ground.
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That’s silly. Everybody (all the professors and students in my top PhD program) knew that the dot com bubble was a bubble and that the real estate market was going to collapse (again, its unsustainability was a common point of discussion). (Though I don’t think anybody realized quite how much fraud there was within the real estate market. We knew it was going to be bad, but not quite this bad… we’d envisioned more of a 1980s S&L bad.) Those are both in standard economic theory too. When was the only question, and economic theory can’t predict that, because it is really the realm of complexity and chaos theory.
You may think that standard mainstream economists didn’t predict that because the media didn’t choose to report the majority view. Jon Stewart had a really fantastic piece on media bias towards irrational exuberance around the time he got into that big fight with Jim Cramer.
After gold collapses, you will probably say, “mainstream economists didn’t predict the collapse of gold.” But that doesn’t make it true.
Also, whatever college that was in the previous comment probably didn’t have a business major. Though many folks who get PhDs in economists also have an undergraduate math, physics, or engineering degree. Mine was math. It is far easier to get into and through med school than an econ phd program.
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@nicole Did they see it coming in 2002-2006 or did they only see it coming in 2007/08. Are you taught Keynesian or Austrian Economics in your PhD program?
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@nicole,
Yeah, I think business and finance would be more appropriate in that quote.
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Nobody teaches Austrian economics at a top 10 program. That would be like teaching Marxian theory at a top school. Only as a curiosity. (Well, except that one guy that everybody secretly calls a sociologist behind his back.)
Also, Keynesian economics was out of vogue when I started graduate school… I can’t tell you whether I had it or not because that would tell you which top school I went to for graduate school since only certain top macro-economists teach it in graduate school.
Keynesian economics has made a come-back recently (after the crash) precisely because its predictions and suggestions are so spot-on. The 1980s was really when they stopped doing so much Keynesian economics and started doing lots of abstruse mathematical modeling with predictions that didn’t match the real world in any way shape or form. The history of economic thought is an interesting study and I recommend it for anybody who thinks all there is is Austrian economics and Keynesian economics.
I graduated long before 2008. So yes, predicting dot com crash 2000, real estate crash at least by 2005. The stupid stupid loan terms on our first houses we were being offered as graduates was enough to show the real estate market was unsustainable. Those 20-20-10 loans with the very minimal credit checks? A disaster waiting to happen. The huge run-up in prices in CA? Unsustainable. Everybody knew it, even though they didn’t know the extent of the damage.
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@Michael
“Did they see it coming in 2002-2006 or did they only see it coming in 2007/08″
Paul Krugman saw it coming as early as August 29, 2005, in this article “Greenspan and the Bubble” where he states, “There are signs that the housing market either has peaked already or soon will.”
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/29/opinion/29krugman.html
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@Lindsey
haha funny because the person i was talking about talked about it as early as 2002 (Peter Schiff).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Uk3hKnQQ8
Also bring Krugman into the mix is funny considering it was his ideas (stimulus and lowering interest rates after the dot.com bubble — Keynesian) that was reason we even had the real estate bubble. Its kinda funny that people still thing even Mr. Keynes himself said that his theory didn’t work unless there was a war. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1B3CXaudCo
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods116.html
@Nicole — Keynsian theory doesn’t explain the actual cause of any the problems in the last decade. In fact Keynesian theory is the reason we had the real estate bubble in the first place. With the easy money (Keynes theory on softening a recession) the fed was providing the housing bubble wouldn’t have been formed.
Side on heres a funny/ informative video for all those Keynesians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc
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I’m just trying to recommend rational, well written arguments from the “other side”, as JD recommends in the post.
As a follow up poster suggests, I am indeed merely an “armchair economist”! I think I could provide both rational arguments and historical examples to back up my points, but this isn’t likely a great forum to do so in.
Professional, mainstream economists like Bernanke have devalued your US dollar by over 95% in the past century plus. A return to a gold standard would indeed be pretty disastrous for the economy today – the equivalent to a massive hangover following binge drinking. But in the long run the economy, like a person sobering up, ends up better off.
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Also on saying the gold standard prolong the depression. Read Murray Rothbards book on the great depression. Its funny how the gold standard before the great depression never caused anything close to what happened during the 1930′s. The only real change between recessions before the great depression is that govt got involved in the market by way of the New Deal Programs. Look at 1921 recession had an even greater decline than 1939 but yet rebounded in one year. How did this happen, the govt stayed out of the way and let the market readjust itself.
I am assuming your PhD economic class only taught you Keynesian economics.
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Read Murray Rothbard book on the Great Depression. The gold standard didn’t cause or prolong the depression. If the gold standard was the cause of it then why didn’t we have a great depression in the previous hundred years? Inflating the money supply is the cause for all booms and bust. And govt spending(stimulus) like the new deal only prolongs the problem. If you let the market adjust itself unimpeded then you will get a quicker recovery like in 1921 which had an even greater drop but recovered in about a year.
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Another important point about ‘investing’ in gold is that gold does not produce money! If you own a stock, there are two ways to earn money: it can provide dividends, or the stock price can increase and you can sell it. With gold, you only make money if the price goes up.
The reason some (very smart) people do invest in gold is because it can be a healthy addition to your *Asset Allocation*. The idea behind asset allocation is that you want different classes of assets that are not correlated to each other. The most basic classic idea of this is Stocks and Bonds. When stocks go down, often bonds go up and vice-versa. Investing this way is a proven method of increasing investment returns (and is the largest factor in determining your return).
Now, sometimes in crazy markets you see stocks and bonds both go down! So people start looking at other asset classes that are not similar/correlated to stocks and bonds. The big favorites are REITs (real estate investment trusts), Cash, U.S. Bonds, TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities), and gold.
I’ll skip over real estate for brevity’s sake. But other investment vehicles are all kind of similar to cash. Cash is an asset class/vehicle. You can get a return from your savings account… but the interest rate is low (and variable), it’s subject to inflation, and you get taxed on it. U.S. Bonds are the next step up, you get a fixed interest rate and you can be pretty sure that as long as the U.S. government doesn’t tank, you’ll get your return… but they’re still subject to inflation, also the interest rate is really low right now. Then you have TIPS which have an interest rate equal to the inflation rate plus a little extra, these are usually a really nice hedge against inflation and preserves your cash amount better than normal cash or u.s. bonds! (but they’re still taxable).
So why gold? because many people are concerned about the government’s ability to repay. So they look for a ‘safe’ investment to avoid risk, gold is perceived as such an instrument. And it’s price is due to both people looking for ‘safe’ investments AS WELL AS people just buying it because the price is going up.
The next topic to learn about is revision to the mean! and why when you have an asset allocaiton you should rebalance your accounts! Then you’ll see why having gold in your portfolio isn’t such a terrible idea… but you’ll also see why it should be more in the 1-5% range of your total portfolio size…
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Great post. Really well said.
I would mention though that many websites and investment books will refer to this 1-5% as “tilting” a portfolio. This is the “fun money” of your account to keep you excited in investing, not the bread and butter of your retirement.
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I’ve always thought of gold as something that will always have value, especially when dinosaurs roam the streets. Mainly because that’s what everyone else always says. I absolutely agree that gold is fiat money just as much as any other currency and, but has never thought of it before. Your article fits perfectly with an article I read last week. I may have found the link here at GRS, I don’t remember.
http://rhetoricaldevice.com/articles/BriefHistoryOfMoney1.html
It shows how the first silvercoins where chosen BECAUSE they had no intrinsic value (you couldn’t eat them).
When it comes to using gold as a hedge against economic collapse, maybe you could invest in a basket of gold AND lots of other currencies. If the collapse only affects spesific regions of the world some of your assets could be saved.
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Buy low, sell high is an investing rule. As a result, I’ve been selling my gold (not investment gold, but scrap gold) for big bucks the last year or so.
JD, I enjoyed this post, thanks.
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I predict the value of gold is going to drop dramatically on May 22nd, after all the crazy people who advocate for it disappear in the rapture.
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ROFL
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+1
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Ha! When they’re gone, we can all swoop in and take their stuff. I know my in-laws, who believe in the rapture, are big on buying gold (because their church told them to), so I’m gonna have me some pretty things on May 23rd!
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Thanks for doing all the hard work and research for me! I’ve had very similar feelings about gold for a while now (it’s a bubble, and bubbles always burst), but didn’t have very firm facts or information to back up my gut feeling. Now I feel more informed, so I can go with my gut with a little more confidence
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A great, informative article, injected with a nice touch of humor! Thanks. I’ve been kicking around “shorting” gold ETFs for a few months now, but I really don’t have the resources (yet) for doing so. So, for any goldbugs out there: Please buy my newsletter – which has loads of information on investing in Pez dispensers, Beanie Babies, Pets.com stock, and yes – Dutch tulips!
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“If I’m a shop owner in this situation — or I’m your neighbor with a vegetable garden — I’m going to be want to be paid with something real, something like a carton of eggs or some shells for my shotgun.”
The movie The Book of Eli with Denzel Washington presents a post-apocalyptic dystopian society where people barter and trade valuable goods as money (clothing, lighters, guns, ammo, food, etc.). I agree that this is a more likely scenario than trading gold.
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that is true for awhile but the barter system is very inefficient. Eventually as the society develops again some sort of money will developed because it makes making trading easier. That money may be based in gold, silver, or anything that people find valuable
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My dad was a child in Greece during and after WWII, where there was a civil war, unstability and food shortages. He lived on a farm and was poor but they had the farm and they traded with the people around them to get other things they needed. On the other hand people from the city came into the country, begging and offering money, watches, family heirlooms for a loaf of bread and were turned away. Yes it may be “short term”, but short term still may be years and you can’t eat a gold watch when you are starving.
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I take exception to this part of your blog post
“I am not an economist, and I struggle when it comes to economic theory, but my understanding is that much of the run-up to and aftermath of the Great Depression was thought to have been caused by the Gold Standard. Under the Gold Standard, currencies were much more susceptible to speculation and devaluation, which could lead to runs on the banks. That’s why the U.S. abandoned it. And it wasn’t only the United States that did so. Not a single country in the world uses the Gold Standard anymore. Until recently, most economists and politicians considered it a deserved relic.”
This is a common mistake made by people today. I would suggest you read Murray Rothbards book on The great depression for understand it more. Another resource on why we went off the gold standard is Tom Woods book “Meltdown”.
I invest in precious metals because i believe the govt will continue to debase the dollar and make it less valuable which makes gold more valuable. Inflation is on its way whether we like it or not and it is just a matter of time till the debt crisis rears its ugly head on the econonmy.
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Like J.D. said, gold has no real value. If the world as we know it ended today, gold would mean nothing. If you have all this gold, and I have food, what makes you think I’m going to trade food for gold?
As an investment, I’m not opposed to gold, but I have not invested in any of it. Maybe if the value drops again I would purchase some, but not right now.
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Gold is money; i.e. it has all the properties of money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money, but most important to your point is that it’s a medium of exchange and a store of value. Unless we’re really talking about an apocalyptic scenario where very few people are left and it becomes very hard to grow food, your stock pile of food will either perish, or be harder to trade for other stuff than my stock pile of gold.
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That’s exactly the point: it has all the properties of money. Which makes it (like money) useless in a “end of the world situation” where we will all start bartering for things that feed and protect our families.
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I realize talking about an ‘end of the world situation’ is out there, but when you talk about the value of gold you have to. Gold is simply a rock that we have assigned value to. Sure it’s a good conductor of electricity, and can be used for repairing teeth, but beyond that what use does gold have? If the world ended today and I wanted to trade you a petosky stone for food would you? No you wouldn’t. The same is true for gold. It’s simply a rock that we have assigned value to. Just like the dollar is paper that we have assigned value to. Both are good for exchange now, but to pretend that one is more valuable than the other is illogical.
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Don’s comment (#28) is spot on! Gold is not a hedge against a catastrophe or even inflation but against the collapse of a currency. It is NOT an investment in order to make x % in y years. It is seen as an insurance in order to preserve at least a part of your wealth should the Dollar or your national currency collapse. And it almost certainly will do that job better than stocks or real estate. JD somehow missed to even mention that motivation.
Btw, just one word about that “you can’t eat gold” notion. Sure, but the same is true for your house, stocks or cash. After a catrastophic event as described in the article your best bet is to have a land miles from anywhere and enough knowledge to grow your own food.
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I don’t understand why gold preserves your wealth in the event of currency fluctuations/collapse/hyperinflation better than stocks or real estate? Wouldn’t those things just go up in price along with everything else? If not, would they not be a bargain to buy?! How is gold different than those things?
Buying gold because you expect armageddon akin to 28 Days Later where you need shotguns and huge stockpiles of food seems ridiculous to me. If the world comes to this, the gold you own in ETFs or whatever will be worthless to you and if you’ve stockpiled gold bars in your house, good luck finding people who want them if you’re not dead yourself.
I agree with you that in that situation (which I don’t think anyone should be planning for and is beyond the scope of a personal finance blog) the best bet would be to live in a remote area with your own farm and plenty of ammunition. But aliens could also kill us all tomorrow, or a meteor, or the rapture could take us away too. None of these things is worth discussing anywhere but a conspiracy theory blog.
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gold in terms of dollars will increase but gold against any other commodity will stay the same or gold will be able to buy more than was previously possible. Take this for example, in terms of dollars, oil has increase dramtically in the last year but oil in terms of gold has actually gone down in value in the last year.
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I agree, let’s not discuss end of the world theories. I only wrote about them because JD suggested they’d be important for gold bugs.
When thinking about a currency collapse we must keep mind that it doesn’t come out of nowhere. In all likelihood we would experience a massive economic slump before and the currency reform would only be the mean to end it. This is where the problem with stocks lies. There will be a lot of bankruptcies. If you happen to own shares in bankrupt companies, you’ve got a problem. Preparing for such a crisis would thus mean careful stockpicking. Which companies are going to survive such a crisis? Since I don’t have a crystal ball, I can only guess that those companies that provide basic goods everyone needs and have little debt stand a higher chance to survive. Bank share holder on the other hand will lose everything. New economy companies could be hit badly, too. How about index funds? Well, they’ll be under pressure, too, as they own shares of “good” and “bad” companies. And then, we should keep in mind that many index funds use swaps to replicate a given index. These products are as dangerous as those debt instruments that caused the near breakdown of our financial system. These funds are likely to vanish entirely as they require the current financial system with its highely vulnerable financial institutions to survive.
To conclude, yes, you should have stocks in times of currency reform but you better make sure you’ve got quality stocks. How about gold? Well, you can at least be sure that it will have a price after the crisis.
How about real estate? I’m certainly not arguing against owning your house. Owning your house has many upsides, most importantly non-financial ones. But let’s say you decide to invest in the housing market and buy additional houses. You either speculate on rising prices so that you call sell higher or on the rent payments. These should cover all your costs including interest on debt. What’s more, common knowledge says inflation helps to reduce the debt burden. Great, isn’t it? Yes, but in times of hyperinflation that will ultimately result in a currency reform, things look a little different. The problem is that expenses may rise a lot faster than income. Why? Because you cannot increase the rent or your wage as fast as prices for food etc. surge. Now, if you have debts, although they’re worth less now than before, you may still not be able to cover the interest. You risk losing your real estate. If you are debt free, the scenario looks a lot better though. You may only become a victim of some sort of equalization of burdens policy policy right after a currency reform but that would a smaller problem. It could be avoided with gold though as the government doesn’t necessarily need to know that you own gold.
All that said, I’m not arguing you should put all your money into gold. Buying gold is an option for everyone who thinks it’s possible that a currrency crash happens. A currency crash is always the result of a overindebted government and (!) private economy. In my opinion, we’re nearing that point in the US, in Europe, in Japan and the rest of the Western world. What’s more, if either the US or Europe collapses, the other one will follow suit. Diversifying out of the US or out of Europe will thus be extremely difficult. So, I’m afraid traditional strategies such as buy and hold and buying index funds will not work quite as good as they used to. Preparing for a huge debt/currency crisis demands a different portfolio: quality stocks, some debt-free real estate, and yes, some physical gold (though I do agree that it would have been better to buy a few years ago). Avoid bonds at all cost and all tricky financial instruments, including swap based index funds (that’s a good idea in normal times, too), gold ETFs etc.
Disclaimer: If you think no huge crisis will occur, ignore everything and go on as usual. I’ve got no crystal ball myself either but I sure think it’s not unlikely anymore that a huge financial crash occurs.
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Great piece. Re massive price increase under Carter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_energy_crisis
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I’ve never understood the reasoning behind hoarding gold in case of a depression or even more serious financial calamity than what we’ve experienced recently. Like you said, I’m pretty sure any type of food, shelter or clothing would be more valuable than a shiny piece of metal if the SHTF.
I’m no economist either, so why do people automatically assume since the dollar is being “devalued” that means gold should increase in value?
Gold (other than it’s true uses as jewelry, in electronics, etc) seems like a giant pump and dump scheme to me – if enough people fall for it being a good “investment” the price goes up.
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Don’t imagine total world devastation where everyone is looting for food in a radioactive wasteland. Instead imagine an economic disaster localized in one country or in one region of the world.
Imagine you are a citizen of a small up and coming country. You are a prominent business person and have the equivalent of $10 million USD in stocks/bonds/cash in your country’s currency, and the equivalent of $1 Million USD in gold. Now imagine tragedy strikes your country, and there’s total economic collapse, and your nation experiences hyper inflation, or extreme devaluation of the currency. Your stocks/bonds cash formerly worth $10 million USD are now worth $10 USD and you can barely afford a couple loafs of bread with that.
But your gold is still worth the same that it was worth to other countries as long as they haven’t collapsed as well.
If the whole world collapses, you don’t even physically have the gold anyway.
(relatively) small net worth investors *probably* don’t **need** to invest in gold. But if you have many millions, and you’re worried about the risk of a whole country collapsing and it’s impact on you… well it is a risk (no matter how remote), and it is a valid way to help hedge against it.
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If I’m a citizen of “Unstable Country X”, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t hold all my wealth in local currency. Diversification would take care of 95% of the problem I’m guessing. Until the dollar stops being the default world currency, I’m not going to get too worried.
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You are exactly right! The problem is that if you’re in the US (I am). Many people’s portfolios are all in US funds. International Diversification is pretty important and highly recommended.
However it’s important to remember that is only a diversifying of total markets, and markets may or may not be correlated (depending on the hypothetical disaster). So instead of just hedging against market risk through geographical diversification, you can use gold as a different asset class to help achieve diversification.
You are not in any way wrong! i’m just pointing out where gold can be usefull. (but usually only if you’re very rich, see my future post that J.D. asked me to make in the comments).
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Don’t neglect the commissions paid on the purchase of solid gold. If you read the fine print on the brochures the various companies will send you, in the “fees” section you will see where they may charge you up to 30% on *each side* of the transaction!
There’s a reason you continue to hear commercials for gold – it’s very profitable!
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If you’re referring to GoldLine (there are plenty of others, I’m sure), the markups they charge border on fraud. They give legitimate dealers like Europac Metals (Schiff’s company), GoldMoney, and e-gold a bad name. You shouldn’t have to pay more than a ~5% markup.
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Thanks for including the permanent portfolio at the bottom. This has been my choice for several years now because like you I found the arguments and data compelling. It is a good reminder that this approach to gold is different than the bubble approach the rest of the article (and it sounds like your Dad) talks about. Thanks for the time and effort it took to put this together.
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I couldn’t quite articulate to people why I was so skeptical about investing in gold and this sums it up beautifully. I can’t think of any value gold would give me personally, or value it would give anyone other than being a commodity with fluctuating demand and price. I don’t see the price of gold plated cables spiking so I can’t see the value in gold.
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A few notes about precious metals:
First of all, silver, gold, platinum, and palladium (the four precious metals that are primarily traded) ALL HAVE VALUE! Ever heard of the catalytic converter? How about the printed circuit board? Solar Panels? Fuel Cells? There are hundreds of other widely used commercial applications for these metals. Yes, we are mining more precious metals everyday. But we are also using more precious metals in everyday manufacturing than ever before.
Just because you invest in precious metals does not mean you are advocating for a “gold standard”. In fact, JD I’m surprised you made that connection at all. Gold/Silver is a commodity just like any other. Buying gas, for instance, does not mean that I am pushing for an “oil standard”.
The quickly rising prices of precious metals is an indicator of how much inflation we have recently experienced.
JD, I think your comment about valuing shot gun shells above precious metals in a time of crisis, may be a bit shortsighted. I think we are much more likely to experience an “energy crisis” than an all out apocalypse, in which case owning a solar panel or fuel cell will be immensely useful. I believe, more so than shot gun shells
A side note, you might find interesting. The latest drop in silver prices coincided perfectly with the announcement of the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. The prices are only now starting to stabilize, now that some time has passed since the event.
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Gold doesn’t have many industrial uses though. I believe that less than 20% of gold mined is used for industry. The rest is jewelry, coins, etc. The other metals you mention have much more use in industry. For example, it is platinum that is used in catalytic converters due to its ability to withstand high temperatures.
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I don’t have any investment in gold either. I think it’s bad timing right now. I will probably buy some gold when the price get a much cheaper. I knew some people who were in Vietnam when the communist took over. The gold were the only thing they could take with them. It’s a hedge against all out disaster. I think you can always move to a better situation so gold could be exchange for currency at other places.
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Warren Buffett had this thoughtful thing to say about gold:
“You could take all the gold that’s ever been mined, and it would fill a cube 67 feet in each direction. For what that’s worth at current gold prices, you could buy all — not some — all of the farmland in the United States. Plus, you could buy 10 Exxon Mobils, plus have $1 trillion of walking-around money. Or you could have a big cube of metal. Which would you take? Which is going to produce more value?”
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I’m not going to argue whether gold is a good investment or not at this current time, the fact is: I don’t know. It is certainly less good of an investment today at $1500 than it was some years ago at $400.
..but, many of your arguments are deeply flawed:
That equities have made good returns since 1926 is pointless for a number of reasons:
Firstly, most people do not have 85 years or an arbitrarily long period of time to save up for retirement. They have about 30-35 years. If you pick a few time intervals for equities that are 30 odd years long, I’m sure you’ll find times when equities have been a lousy investment, as surely as you can find the same for ANY asset class.
Timing and time of holding matter as much as anything in a historical perspective, and if you happen to become an adult at the beginning of a bad run, you may grow old before your investments recover (in real terms, the S&P had negative returns between 1997-2009).
Secondly, as always, past performance is no indicator of future performance.
When it comes to the “intrinsic value” of gold or currency, it has none. Things are only as valuable as the buyer sees them, and as valuable as what you can get in exchange for it. If a replacement for oil was invented tomorrow, oil would soon have less “intrinsic value” than water.
BUT, at this current time I personally have a certain suspiciousness towards the US Dollar: the US monetary base, ie the base amount of currency in circulation has more than tripled in a few short years. Gold above ground on the other hand only increases by about 3-4% per year (I think) – In a race to the bottom, Bernanke’s ability to conjure up money at will and track record of doing puts the dollar at a disadvantage.
Even IF gold is in a bubble, my view is that the dollar is in an even bigger bubble: money printing on such a scale will only mean that prices for just about everything, from commodities to equities will get bid up, as more dollars chase fewer assets. Which asset will get bid up the most is anyones guess, and in real terms, gold may lag behind inflation (hence: “bad investment”), but the dollar is more likely to suffer.
I have no idea which way the economy is headed, but a re-run of 70′ies style stagflation is not a bad bet.
Finally, in the case of the “apocalypse” that some people seem to want to portray:
You’re right. Gold won’t do you much good, nor will dollars. If someone believes in such a scenario, I’d suggest stocking up on bullets and whisky. In post-Soviet collapse Russia, vodka was as good as money.
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I like the anecdote about the value of antique paper money due to its collect-ability vs. the equivalent amount of gold. One of life’s little ironies I suppose.
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