Why Austerity Hurts: The Government’s Budget is Not Like Yours
Published on - August 25th, 2011 (by Sarah Gilbert) This post is from new staff writer Sarah Gilbert. GRS readers liked Gilbert’s recent post on economics and current events, so today she’s offering more of the same.
Unlike “entitlements,” the word “austerity” has come to mean something akin to “godliness” in modern political circles. And along with austerity goes the concept of running the government’s balance sheet like a personal budget. Everyone, from President Obama to his bitterest rivals, have been known to stick a pointer finger in the air and demand, “I wouldn’t run my family’s finances that way, and neither should Washington!”
When I say I don’t agree, it isn’t with everyone. It’s just with the political soundbite and the conventional wisdom; austerity, for a government facing a growing deficit and struggling economy, isn’t at all desirable. And no, the government should not run its budget in any way like the budget of a home — at least, not in the way politicians and pundits are suggesting. Let me explain.
What is austerity?
Let’s begin with “austerity,” a word which seems very close in dictionary definition to “frugality,” and what it has come to mean in global finance.
As James Surowiecki wrote in the New Yorker‘s “Financial Page” earlier this month, Republicans in Washington are pushing for austerity that will look like cuts in “public spending — on infrastructure, basic research, and defense,” and for a wholesale halt to all “stimulus” type spending; anything that the government can do to actually create jobs (think the Civilian Conservation Corps after World War II) and, as Surowiecki posits, “it’s possible that Republicans will block the extension of unemployment-insurance benefits and of the current payroll-tax cut.”
In other words, for most Republicans — and many Democrats as well — “austerity” means something like this: reducing spending, especially on support for groups benefiting from so-called entitlements — the low-income, the older Americans, the mentally ill — yet continuing to support businesses through tax breaks and incentives.
Another way of looking at austerity through the eyes of modern American politics is that it is meant paradoxically to decrease spending on Americans while expecting that Americans will increase spending (through jobs, is the hope of those who use the term “job creators” as shorthand for “upper class and businesses,” supplied by the private sector) and, eventually, grow the economy by the very strength of their frugal will, and eventually, put more money back in the public coffers. In Europe, this pro-austerity point of view is more about maintaining faith in a country’s financial health, and therefore keeping bond rates low; in the U.S., that’s either working or not a concern, depending on how you interpret the market data.
Looking at the past
Historical data on government-mandated austerity is inauspicious at best. In an illuminating and prescient series of reports by NPR’s Planet Money team, two similar countries, Jamaica and Barbados, were analyzed as they both suffered financial crises. Both went to the IMF for foreign currency loans in the early 1990s, and both were told they were going to have to take austerity measures to make sure this situation didn’t happen again.
The IMF has two suggestions:
- devalue currency, or
- cut government services
Most countries simply cut government services, as the U.S. is planning to do do. When the people of the country have less money in their pockets, the idea goes, they can’t buy so much — so that foreign money comes into the country via tourism and trade, but the people aren’t spending it on foreign goods (because they’re too poor), re-establishing a balance.
In Jamaica, the government sucked it up and cut services. Classrooms got bigger; infrastructure support was cut; public service jobs were eliminated. But in Barbados, the unions, the government, and businesses got together and negotiated a deal: keep all government services in place, keep classrooms small and public health services running, but workers would get an across-the-board 8% pay cut. To make up for that, businesses agreed not to raise prices, but accept smaller margins on goods in inflationary situations.
Two decades later, things have gone from bad to worse in Jamaica, while Barbados’ economy is strong. As the Planet Money commentators reported, today:
Median income in Barbados is twice what it is in Jamaica. Literacy rate in Barbados, over 95% … in Jamaica, it’s estimated that a fifth of the population is functionally illiterate. And Jamaica has one of the highest murder rates in the world, while Barbados is near the bottom.
Given our country’s size, and the near-constant change in the tone and party of leadership, it’s unlikely that we’d end up like Jamaica — not, at least, in many respects. But economists agree that the very worst thing to do in a period of joblessness is to reduce spending. An economy will not improve (at least not quickly) if you take away income from the people most likely to spend it right away.
Running the government like a family
How can you improve revenue in a tight economy with very high unemployment? By putting people to work. And historically in economies like the U.S., that has best been accomplished by giving them government jobs.
My own grandfather was one of the three million men employed by the Civilian Conservation Corps, a model many pundits believe should be duplicated today. That would put money in people’s pockets, stimulating the economy, increasing the prospects for businesses so they could hire more people, thereby increasing tax revenue and decreasing the need for services — while the deficit would at first increase, it would quickly decrease until our budget was more manageable.
That’s not what is happening. Instead, we are — as politicians say — running our government like a family. The problem is that government should not be run like a family, as its mission is very different than that of a family. Let me make an analogy that may seem Swiftian but I believe is, in fact, simply a reflection of our modern political will.
As government’s debt increases, Washington has moved to take away services from the weakest members of society — those who have been unemployed for many months, older Americans who are dependent on Medicare and Medicaid, families struggling below the poverty line, families with mentally ill children or adults.
If we were to compare this to our own families, it would be something like this: Dad lost his job and Mom’s hours were cut. We have to pay our rent and our utilities and buy food and pay the credit card bill. But we have to live within our means! Let’s stop paying to feed and clothe this four-year-old with severe ADHD (he’s so hard to deal with and makes Mom miss work all the time). And Dad can go too (he should just look harder for a job — he needs more of an incentive to get back to work!).
So, maybe a government should be like a family, but in this way: Just as we don’t pull services (food and a key to the front door) out from under members of our immediate family when they’re not producing, a government will end up with bigger problems if it does the same.
A higher calling
But a government’s potential problems are different than a family’s. A government does not have a finite time frame, and will not stand to inherit money when Aunt Sue dies. A government must be concerned with the impacts of its fiscal decisions on both a huge variety of stakeholders — citizens, corporate “people,” public organizations, global markets, third world countries, trading partners — as well as the long term realities of governmental spending.
For example:
- Invest in nutrition programs for two-year-olds today, and perhaps you will save money in 10 years (less special education requirements) and 20 years (better employment and less crime) and 60 (healthy eating habits means older citizens require less medical help).
- Take money away from programs meant to encourage community support and sex education for teens, and perhaps you will be spending more in five years (health care for pregnant women and infants) and in 20 years (when their children reach adulthood; statistics show children born to teen mothers are more likely to unemployed and to be teen parents themselves).
When a family is low on income, it makes sense for it to cut spending (but not at the expense of its weakest members). When a government is low on income? That’s when it should be spending the most, to support those weak members of the society and to invest its citizens with wealth to spread back to the government.
The best way to “create wealth” in an economy is to make sure all members of the economy feel safe enough to take risks, from buying homes to spending for education to starting new businesses. This can’t be done by pulling the safety net away.
The government simply has a higher order of responsibility than a nuclear family, not just to pay its bills but to maintain an ordered and fair economy. With unusually high unemployment, the new norm in many families is disorder, distress and chaos. Washington has a choice: make its citizens feel safe with jobs, social services, health care, and other spending, or face growing resentment and panic among Americans.
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Fantastic post! I’ve been trying to explain why the proposed cuts are worst thing we can be doing at this time to friends and family. I can now send them to your page.
Thank you
Matt
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Long time reader but never posted until now. As much as I disagree with the content of the post I’m glad you brought up this topic for this reason. Here’s a relevant quote:
“The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”
Rooting out idiotic economic beliefs in our personal lives is a large part of what this site is about (feeling good now > saving money later). The same thing should be done as a society. Idiotic economic beliefs are exactly why we’re in the financial hole as a country.
The gist of the commentary is riddled with economic fallacies and I would challenge the OP to look at the underlying belief. The post seems very Keynesian to me and I question how it’s Keynesianism is good in any sense of the word. By the way, the quote is from Keynes himself.
Much as you encourage your readers to introspect on private economic beliefs, I challenge you to introspect on your public economic beliefs.
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Jimmy, I’d be curious to see what economists you would refer to as good economists.
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Try Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell.
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Jimmy seems to miss the point: Governments are not families, and corporations are not individuals (yes, I differ with the majority of the Supreme Court -judges with corporate pay offs).
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And this is why I think this post was a waste of time. Honestly, do you think anyone here changed their opinion on the role of government after reading this? Liberals applaud because it’s what they believe already. Conservatives boo because it’s complete nonsense to them.
Honestly, write something that will matter. I’ve changed my mind. Asking people to introspect on public, political beliefs is a lot harder than asking them to introspect on private habits.
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Here’s the problem: “austerity” is a broad brush.
You (and many others) dislike austerity because you’re afraid of it hurting those of us currently most vulnerable – taking away health and social service benefits, job opportunities, and income from those who literally cannot afford to lose them.
I (and many others) LIKE austerity because we’re hopeful that it will curb harmful spending habits – benefits to those who don’t need them (the top 5% still collect social security – even though they don’t need it), roads to nowhere, foreign wars, ditches dug and filled in, supporting failed/unwanted businesses and technologies.
Unfortunately, due to the conflict between your fears and my desires, the advocates for austerity with the most influence will be the worst possible kind – the ones that manage to lose weight by cutting off limbs instead of changing our diet.
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Shouldn’t the top 5% get something for the vast sums of money governments extract from them?
What happens when that 5% becomes 50%, and those above get nothing?
What happens when its just those in the government club who get the money, and not those outside?
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It may be a total tangent to the topic, but it was too tempting.
At some point in the past, this society decided that government existed largely in order to collect money to give people stuff and services (for very wide definitions of “stuff” and “service”). You can disagree with that decision, but it’s the decision that was made.
Government isn’t a business, however. You don’t buy the stuff and services you get. Otherwise, the people who need the services wouldn’t be able to get them, and the people who could afford them, largely wouldn’t need them.
People with more influence than you decided during a particularly tough period of our history that we needed a wealth redistribution mechanism to take away from the young and give to the old. The first recipients of social security didn’t “earn” their checks – they just received them without paying in. The people receiving checks today may have paid in their whole lives, but that doesn’t mean that they “earned” these checks – they are two separate acts that folks have erroneously coupled as having a causal relationship. Thus, I anticipate paying in my whole life, and then never receiving a single check.
But moreover, I don’t want to receive them (and I’m not even quite in that 5% group by either measure). Why? Because social security isn’t an investment vehicle. No rational actor would use social security in that way. It just stinks rotten for that. However, it makes a great welfare for old folks, which is realistically what it was always meant to be!
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For some reason I don’t see a reply link to Nate #161, but I really liked this quote
“Government isn’t a business, however. You don’t buy the stuff and services you get. Otherwise, the people who need the services wouldn’t be able to get them, and the people who could afford them, largely wouldn’t need them.”
A good explanation of why a government (budget) can’t be modeled exactly like a business or household.
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“Government isn’t a business, however. You
don’t buy the stuff and services you get. Otherwise, the people who need the services wouldn’t be able to get them, and the people who could afford them, largely wouldn’t need them.”
A good explanation of why a government (budget) can’t be modeled exactly like a business or household.
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Not the case.
Lets say bar group services such as defence, the government provides no individual services.
What does it need to get the services you want to the people that need them?
You could have the current mess with governments trying to do it.
Or you could give the money to the people for those services. They can then buy and spend as they see fit.
After all, what they need isn’t necessarily want you want to give them.
Governments are a one size fits all supplier.
In addition, funding in that way makes it clear what the cost is. One of the major problems that exist, and will impact individuals in awful ways, is that the price of government services still has to be paid. They have been bought on credit (debt) and by promising future payments (pensions)
You can’t tell what the cost is, or whether its value for money.
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I’m not going to disagree with the most of your post – I fully acknowledge the issues you raised are very hard problems – possibly unsolvable. I don’t think we’ve got it right, but I also don’t know if we *can* get it right…
“Or you could give the money to the people for those services. They can then buy and spend as they see fit. After all, what they need isn’t necessarily want you want to give them.”
The paragraph quoted, however, I think is just nonsense – you start with a conclusion, continue with a rationale, and end with your premise. By doing so, you’ve succumbed to a failure in logic.
Yes, socialism is crude and inefficient, and market forces are better. Yes, peoples needs vary. However, the people who wind up using these services frequently are unable to prioritize their needs over their wants in the first place! These people aren’t “rational actors” – most people aren’t.
Do you really think that if you gave people an allowance that they would fail to spend it on ephemeral pleasures? To put it a slightly different way, how many food stamps have you seen spent on vegetables (potato chips don’t count)?
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Do you really think that if you gave people an allowance that they would fail to spend it on ephemeral pleasures? To put it a slightly different way, how many food stamps have you seen spent on vegetables (potato chips don’t count)?
Follow this train of thought through. Would they spend the money on other things. Of course they would.
So then the question is, why are we paying them for things they don’t want?
There is huge scope for saving money.
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Interesting article. I’m from britain and our situation is somewhat different(we already voted for a govt that is planning severe austerity(and I support it)) I partially agree and disagree. I do believe governments should keep the money flowing, but also that we need austerity. I see the current government deficit crises’ not so much as governments spending too much money, but more about spending money on the wrong things.
For example, here in britain, we’re cutting spending on police(I disagree).
Also, according to our benefits system, a family must be provided a house by the council if one is needed, and there must be one bedroom for the couple, and one bedroom each for each child.
The problem is large families. Say 2 parents, 9 children. The council then has to find a 10 bedroom house, buy it or rent it, and let these people live in it.
We should slash their benefits(austerity) and say that they can have a 3 bedroom house and shouldn’t have had as many children, and then keep paying for the police and other government services(govt spending).
Just one example from my point of view over here across the pond.
P.S. I actually just came for the comments and didn’t mean to type all this, you americans are crazy when it comes to politics and economics, so I’m somewhat sad there aren’t any comments yet
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Just to give an example of how the UK government spends it cash, so as those in the US can see why ‘austerity’ is needed.
There are people on welfare in the UK who receive 104,000 GBP (170,227 USD) a year just for housing. On top they get free health care, free schooling, money to spend on clothes, food and living. All tax free.
In contrast we have people on 12K a year, (minimum wage) paying 2.5K a year in tax.
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Isn’t it possible for there to be a middle ground? I’m so sick of this all-or-nothing thinking; it doesn’t have to be one or the other.
And always, always cite your sources.
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I know it’s not the focus of the article/discussion but I want to explain that referencing the £100,000+ figure is somewhat misleading.
The law to increase housing benefit to a maximum of £2,000 a week (= circa £100,000 a year) was only brought in in June 2010, and only five familes have claimed that much (and the details are not yet available but it’s likely that they didn’t claim that for a full year). I do agree that’s five too many but it’s certainly not typical. The overall average housing benefit award is £84.36 per week = £4386.72 a year.
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The law to increase housing benefit to a maximum of £2,000 a week (= circa £100,000 a year)
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No it wasn’t. There is a law going through to cut the level of housing benefit.
The 104,000 a year (linked to RPI) has been going on for years.
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Nick, I’m not a housing expert and I’m not debating that things are changing again soon. But re: the £100,000, I’m just quoting something from Hansard:
“In June 2010 the maximum local housing allowance rate rose to £2,000 a week which would be equivalent to receiving £104,000 a year in housing benefit assuming the individual remains in receipt of the same level of benefit for 52 continuous weeks.”
Steve Webb MP/Minister of State for Pensions, 06 Sept 2010
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That was an inflation linked rise. The levels of housing benefit in real terms have been at this level for some time. ie. Depending on the area the maximum level of housing benefit varies, and Westminister is at the top end.
So the claim that HB is low and just rose to this stupendous level is wrong. HB claims at this level have been around for a long time.
The Tories are introducing – too slowly – a lower cap.
However it does show that billions have been wasted, and since its borrowed cash, its going to impact savers and others badly. You can’t separate out government action from the individual.
If we take incapacity benefit, 350 billion has been wasted. We know this because 93% of those currently being tested are losing ICB because they are fit for some sort of work. 350 is 93% of the ICB paid out over the years. That ignores the interest. Enough to fund over 2 years of deficit.
It is going to take a very long time to pay off the mess and its your money.
You real share of the debt is 225,000 pounds. Can you afford that?
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Okay, first of all “we” didn’t vote for the current government. There was a hung parliament, and the party that got the most votes- Conservatives- still only got something like 32% of the vote. There was also the vote voting debacle of record numbers of voters turning out to vote which ended with some people (rather a lot of students) being turned away without being allowed to vote).
Secondly, there is no rule that says that each child has to have their own bedroom. The rule in that regard is that children of opposite sexes should not be housed together over a certain age (I think it’s around 8 years old), which is fair enough really.
The Conservatives cuts are going to gut the NHS, I work for the NHS and it is already struggling. My office can’t afford paperclips. Our filing goes in a shed in a courtyard because there isn’t enough room in the hospital. We have 500 new pregnancy bookings A MONTH. And no, most of them aren’t women having their 4th or 5th child, a lot of them are women having their first baby (although a lot of the women were born outside of the UK). The reason we have to take on so many women is that our hospital is the only one with a proper maternity suite for a huge area- Berkshire and Bucks plus a little more. The other hospitals don’t have proper maternity facilities.
If the government want to get back on track, they need to invest in new housing- knock down some of the council house estates and replace them with higher density flats which are built efficiently, to a high standard, and to last. Bring back vetting for the new houses so that you have to be employed to qualify.
Build new schools and hospitals that, again, will last well with room for the growing population. Sort out the train and bus monopolies so they can’t keep screwing over working people.
Make it so you have to be a British citizen to qualify for any benefits, tax credits or income support.
And most importantly, close the tax loopholes! The amount lost to the government in tax evasion vastly outweighs the amount lost in benefit fraud.
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The Conservatives cuts are going to gut the NHS, I work for the NHS and it is already struggling. My office can’t afford paperclips. Our filing goes in a shed in a courtyard because there isn’t enough room in the hospital. We have 500 new pregnancy bookings A MONTH. And no, most of them aren’t women having their 4th or 5th child, a lot of them are women having their first baby (although a lot of the women were born outside of the UK). The reason we have to take on so many women is that our hospital is the only one with a proper maternity suite for a huge area- Berkshire and Bucks plus a little more. The other hospitals don’t have proper maternity facilities.
Really?
What’s the level of spending made available this year compared to last?
You can’t blame the Tories.
There are going to be cuts. Look at the percentage of NHS spending going on wages, and the number of staff. Labour raised hugely your wages, and hugely increased the number of staff. As a result productivity in the NHS hasn’t increased by the same amount. In other words, a good example of why government shouldn’t be doing health care.
Then, for the US readers, there is the question of deaths in the NHS. The NHS’s own figures for the number of deaths where it contributes too or causes the death, is 20-80,000 a year. Under reporting of mistakes is rampant.
Then we have a current court case.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8726481/Widower-in-legal-fight-with-hospital.html
A widower is suing a hospital trust and the Health Secretary over his claims that doctors twice put “do not resuscitate” orders on his wife’s medical notes without her consent.
When challenged it was removed only to be replaced latter without his or her consent.
The US needs to avoid the NHS model of health care. You do end up with death panels.
If you want a model to follow that has universal health coverage, the one to look to is Switzerland. Everyone gets affordable coverage, and the regulator, supplier and insurers are split so there are none of the massive conflicts of interest that exist in the NHS. 20,000 deaths a year is just one of them.
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“Labour raised hugely your wages, and hugely increased the number of staff”
No, it didn’t. Workers in my office are on NHS pay band 2 (http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=766) which is barely a living wage in my part out of the country. Our office used to have 8 members of full time staff- now it has 1 full time staff member and 4 who are on hours ranging between 16 and 30 a week. I am a temporary worker they have drafted in 2 years in a row to work full time over the summer. And before you ask, no, I am not making a lot of money. I am making £7 an hour, working a demanding, stressful and disheartening job, so over the course of summer (6 weeks), after taxes, I make £1340.
Of course, as buses to the hospital don’t run from my part of town, I had to buy a bicycle and with all other expenses I had to pay to work there that brought my net wage to only £1100 which is barely 2 months rent while I’m at university in the capital because, guess what, there’s no affordable housing in London.
Yes, the NHS has a lot of problems. Millions of pounds were wasted on a countrywide computer system (IPM) that doesn’t do what it was intended to do and constantly breaks down. The infrastructure is crumbling and decayed- our hospital was built very shoddily in the 60s as a temporary stop gap and has never been updated.
You are right in part about a lack of productivity. The workers in the NHS are not well paid (apart from those higher up, who are making a disproportionately large amount), but they do have a lot of benefits in term of holiday and sick pay, flexible hours and job security. Some of the things the workers in my office get away with are beyond belief- they are disturbingly unprofessional on occasion.
But one case, however terrifying, does not make a “death panel”. The NHS does deliver quality care, and there is a lower rate of maternal death in the UK than there is the USA. I would much rather have our model of healthcare than worry that something I can’t control- getting cancer, breaking my leg getting hit by a truck- would bankrupt me.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/dhtml_slides/10/blastland/img/slide3_v4.gif
Look at the graph. BBC (Pravda) so it has to be true.
Spending on the NHS has nearly doubled.
Has your efficiency increased 100%? Nope.
Is it as is claimed an investment? Well if so, the investment has to start paying. Either by producing more money – which the NHS can’t do, or because people are healthier, so they don’t need all the spending.
So what is it? Has the investment failed? Has your productivity failed?
What about the 20,000 killed each year?
I’ve had personal experience of 4 cases where the NHS screwed up so bad people were killed.
1. Surgeon didn’t take a swab when he found an infection. 2 weeks later he removed bladder, uterus, vagina, 1 kidney and most of the bowel. He then upped the morphine dose to kill off the patient. Partners mother. The GPs also made errors and an entire practice had to resign from the NHS.
2. Similar case with a family friend. Toxic shock.
3. Another friend where during an operation they intubated him, not into the airway but the stomach. They didn’t monitor oxygen levels or notice he had turned blue. Brain dead – died two days latter.
4. A case current in the courts about another friend. Missed a brain anurism. Died 10 days after giving birth leaving the father with two kids. Since she was a very high earner as a partner in a hedge fund, the bill there is going to take a massive chunk.
No doubt you will think that is wrong. The NHS after all takes the attitude that the victims should suffer in silence.
4 personal examples, and I’m sure there are more.
Local to me there was one hospital, St Mary’s in Sidcup that starved a patient to death.
We’ve hospitals killing hundreds from infections, and no one is prosecuted.
We had Shipman, a Doctor kill over 600 (the unofficial figure, the official figure over 200), and the NHS didn’t notice.
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Great article. Some of these “government should be run like my family” articles are ridiculous.
I think the main distinction between a family and government is that a family can cut costs (sometimes dramatically) without affecting their income. It doesn’t work exactly like that for a government.
It might be more useful to think of a government as a group of several generations of a family – some of whom are dependent on others for their survival as well as services.
If this family runs into financial trouble, it can make cuts which should help the present day balance sheet. However, if things like college education are cut for the younger generation – that will affect the long term financial health of the family, since it’s future earning power has been reduced.
Eventually, the money has to be balance, but it’s not critical that every generation run a surplus. Some generations should do well financially which will make up for the generations that are not so successful.
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nicely written article but i’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. spending more money than we have is not going to fix anything. while i’m not saying that we should cut all entitlement programs i do think that they should be drastically reduced and it should have happened a long time ago.
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I respectfully disagree with this article. If we continue to spend like this we will have no future, it is not realistic.
Basically you have to cut where the money is being spend, it really doesn’t matter how “novel” of a program it is, you have to cut where it is being spend, and unfortunately our government has created a large entitlement mentality among many groups including some that are wealth along with the elderly and poor.
The idea of going out and doing what it takes to support yourself and family has gone out the window and we look towards the government to bail us out. The problem with that is that when government takes from one and gives to the other they get to pick the winners and losers, the bailouts went towards large corporations that had there hand in the political process as well as unions. These companies all received bailout packages from our government while the small to medium real businesses went out of business.
The average middle class lower class American is on the hook in the future for huge tax increases. The amount going out verses coming in is staggering and it does need to stop.
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I also think this is a great article. What is totally missing in the discussion though is that, to stay in the analogy, the government does not have to work for money, but it can raise taxes.
I am from Germany and there, taxes are called “Steuern” which is derived from the verb “steuern” which means to steer. The government therefore should influence the future with the taxes.
In my opinion, the government needs to take away money from the really rich and redistribute it towards the poor, e.g. by increased spending for infrastructure. This can even increase future earning power.
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i was just wondering why you thought the government should redistribute wealth. that seems really unfair to me. why should i work very hard for my money just to have it taken away and given to other people? if that is the case i would have to start hiding my money from the government.
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At a certain point, the hard work you put in starts to diverge from the amount of money you are making. Are you claiming you work harder than a construction worker who makes $35k a year? You may have invested more time, money and effort into developing your career, but you may not have gotten to that point if the construction worker hadn’t built the road for you to drive your car to class on. The point being, if you want to continue to earn like you do, you need a stable and functional society to enable you to do the job that you have set out to do.
No one is proposing to tax middle class Americans, anyway, except, ironically, the conservative politicians whose spending cuts would effectively operate in the same way as taxation. Example: If the government is forced to spend less on healthcare, who ends up footing the bill? The consumer, which by and large is the middle class. By closing tax loopholes on millionaires, however, you can fund some of these programs while not taking anything away from someone who might suffer as a result.
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It’s a social contract. You give up a certain portion of your income in order to maintain the public good and a country that functions on the highest order. Calling it redistribution of wealth is a tactic used by anti-tax champions to mislead, akin to “death tax” instead of “estate tax.” This sort of philosophy works well in a sort of black and white, strictly linear morality, but does not hold up in the real world, where things like economics, social behavior and cultural demographics hold sway.
Similarly, while the relatively straightforward “we can’t spend more than we have” logic gets bandied about a great deal, it also doesn’t hold up against most schools of economics. This article is spot on.
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And is that social contract enforceable? No.
In the UK they have just partially defaulted on that social contract when it comes to pensions.
When it comes to value for money, for a median worker they would have had 21K a year, instead the government gives them 5K a year.
This is a lot like a family, when both parent are healthy and working you save money, when someone is unemployed or sick you use those savings to bridge the gap.
And that is how it should work. Self insure first, then go for charity.
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So we should tax people who have money to give it to people that don’t have it for the greater good? This does not work with our constitution. If we really want to transform this country into Germany or other social justice states then you would have to completely re write our founding documents. Also “death tax” is the proper word, you earn income (tax that), you buy things (tax it again), you save it and earn interest (tax again) then you want to leave some for your family (taxed one final time, nope your kids will also pay tax on spending it). I guess being a libertarian you would call me socially harsh, but I do want to support the vital roles that governments should provide for, military, infrastructure, etc. However I fundamentally disagree with redistribution. There is something called charity, if you want to hand out cash to people sure go do that just don’t force me by taking my income. I would love to see us transfer from a income tax to a consumption tax ie (vat, fair tax, sales tax) This would tax people who spend tons of their income on stuff they don’t need and let the people with less income keep their money and if they choose and not be taxed. Also this system would get rid of any deductions so that government cannot pick the loosers and winners by catering to specific groups.
Also the government can and should cut some services, we are paying way too much and if we want to end up broke like Italy or other countries than keep on going like we are.
We should cut some crazy amounts of defense spending, but entitlements will be more than half of the budget soon so there is no way not to reform or cut them.
When ever the government uses the word “invest” watch out.
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@ Ian: The thread got so long it wouldn’t let me responde to you directly. You just said everything I would want to say. Especially this part: “Also the government can and should cut some services,”
According to WSJ @ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703749504576172942399165436.html:
“The U.S. government has 15 different agencies overseeing food-safety laws, more than 20 separate programs to help the homeless and 80 programs for economic development.”
These need to be consolidated and streamlined. That kind of efficiency will help more people and prevent scamming.
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It has nothing to do with levels of work. It has to do with freedom. Who then gets to decide how much wealth we get to attain for our work. At what point does the government decide we have enough and take our remaining wealth.
There is no social contract that says we should give up our wealth as part of our society. That is utter nonsense. Check the Constitution – nothing even remotely like that. Our government was established to provide freedom, which means personal AND economic freedom. If you are a construction worker, then you are making a choice on your economic status. Deal with it. If you don’t like it, then work an extra job, invest wisely, live below your means, or get into a new field. Don’t expect others to pay your way.
History is littered with failed socialist experiments. We are headed that way along with most of Europe. As bad as our financial issues are today, we have only scratched the surface considering the unfunded liabilities our nation faces.
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Abby —
You do realize that you benefit from government spending, don’t you?
If you need me to elaborate, I will happily do so!
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i do realize that. i just do not agree with redistribution of wealth. and i think the government spends entirely too much. i never said they should stop completely.
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I see people use the phrase “redistribution of wealth” a lot. I’m not really sure what they mean by that, because it’s collected as taxes and used for government services, it’s not wealth (i.e. excess to requirements) anymore.
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you like the phrase “distribution of resources” any better?
it’s the “distribution” I take exception with…when I get to have a say in said “distribution” (i.e. can opt out of having my income go towards overseas military actions) then I’ll be more than happy to consign that portion over to social security.
I’d rather feed an old person than kill one as “collateral damage” but the government doesn’t give me an option by way of gun point (don’t pay taxes, see how quick the gun shows up hauling you off to jail).
I don’t have a problem with “distributing” my wealth; I have a really big problem with the whackjobs in D.C. being the sole persons that get to do the deciding.
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Redistribution of wealth – I pay taxes on the income I make. I don’t have a lot of nice expensive things. I sacrifice so I can prepare for a better future. Here are a few examples to help you understand my frustration:
– I have an business associate whose mother was laid off. The mother decided she would take the next 99 weeks off and enjoy her time because she had worked hard…I guess I have not.
– I have retired client who does taxes for low income people in our rural area as a free service. He is amazed that people know how much “work” they can do and when they have to stop so it won’t cut into their entitlements. He said they amazingly max out their refund each year. side note: I love “UNearned income tax credit”.
– Same retired client said a unemployed mother of 3 will “sell” her children’s social security number for $500 to a friend so he can get child deductions on his taxes. He said he sees this quite often.
– Same retired client’s brother was laid off and is collecting unemployment, while working with an electrician in another county and being paid under the table. I guess double dipping…
– I have watched people pay for groceries with “food stamps”, then get in their brand new car and drive home talking on their cell phone. Fact: My car is 11 years old with 200,000 miles on it.
– I have a high school classmate who is disabled and can not work, but yet he can play golf 3 times a week.
– A coworker has a client who filed for divorce to qualify for mental health payments for her housing. The couple still lives together. It was $400 a month.
– We have a large immigrant population in our area, I have some tell me they don’t need insurance from work or pay for their own. THey just tell the hospital/doctor they work for farmer Smith down the road and don’t have insurance. They don’t have to pay a thing.
Your tax dollars pick that up.
– My sister in law got pregnant without maternity, cost him over $10,000 in bills. Low income people get that for free. It took him 2 years to pay it off.
Would you like more? The problem with this article is that is sounds good on the chalk board, but in today’s reality, there is no personal responsibility. So many people are playing the government for a handout (not up). They see everyone else doing it and feel they should get their “share.” No one sees it as what it is, stealing from your fellow American.
I just get sick and tired of seeing people abuse the system and pay little to nothing for what they get. Meanwhile, I have to pay for health insurance, car insurance, house insurance, house payments, food for my kids at school, etc.
I am all for helping people, but many of the situations I see are not necessary. That is your problem. I fear once you take the “work” out of some one, it’s hard to put it back in.
Maybe I should quit working and join the party…
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@189, who said, “I have watched people pay for groceries with “food stamps”, then get in their brand new car and drive home talking on their cell phone. Fact: My car is 11 years old with 200,000 miles on it.”
I had a minor parking lot mishap with one of those people. Since I did not have insurance, I offered to pay for the repairs and we exchanged contact information. Turned out I had to write the check out to their 2 year old daughter, who was the one who “owned” the car…
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I guess this is the day when this site changed forever.
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nothing can be relied upon as a continuum but change itself.
if you are expecting the world, and the things in your world, to stay the same, then you are in for a very surprising, disappointing and frustrating life.
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Agreed. I more or less agree with Sarah’s post, but to the extent that GRS is gonna get close to political-ish topics, I’d rather we keep it at least somewhat tailored to personal finance.
I’ve mentioned this before, but why not a post on how everyone’s personal finances would be affected by various doomsday-ish scenarios? For instance – should I be paying off debt if inflation is looming? Is there any point to buying a house in 2011, when the Fed has signaled that interest rates will stay low at least another two years? Etc.
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I agree. This is important.
I personally think, for lots of reasons, with evidence too, that its a lot worse than we are being told. Mainly that most of the debts are off the books, and those debts are debts to the citizen. Applies to more than the US.
Governments will partially default on those debts before biting the bullet and reneging on their borrowing.
In terms of people with similar views check out Peter Schiff.
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Anyone interested in Schiff’s views, please check out wikipedia and prepare to be scared. FYI, he is not an economist.
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though I do stand by what many others have said — that all government policies do impact our personal finances, and understanding the economics behind it can only be helpful!
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Yes, and this is the last post I shall read. Bad call on allowing this JD.
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Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I just want to state my appreciation for JD’s willingness to open this topic up for civil discussion. I think there’s too much of a tendency today for people to seek out information that validates the points of view they already hold, and nothing more. Folks on the right can watch FOX, where they hear only one point of view, and folks on the left, well, they can read the Nation or watch MSNBC (admittedly, there’s nothing quite like FOX on the left), and hear the other side. But too many of us stick to our echo chambers and don’t seek out an opposing view, and it’s not good never to be challenged. Please don’t shy away from presenting the occasional controversial post. I think you are doing us all a favor.
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This wasn’t JD writing the article, and he has done political stuff before, expect to see a LOT of deleted flame comments.
Its difficult to point out that politicians are being foolish (the government’s budget is NOT your family’s budget), without becoming political, and this one happened to come up on one side of the debate. As I remember JD’s opinion annoys both sides (to reduce the deficit we need to increase taxes AND reduce spending).
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For the record, I did not find this article at all political. It was a well written article explaining in reader-friendly language mainstream economic theory and practice with relevant examples using two different countries. Unless some of our politicians on both sides of the aisle start doing something to tackle unemployment and the lack of demand for goods and services, we are going to follow the example of another country, Japan, with a decade long bout of stagflation.
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Great article.
One argument I always make on why the gvt can’t run like a home, is that Dad can always get (or at least try to get) a 2nd job delivering pizzas or working third shift at the grocery store, to increase revenue. People whom often compare gvt budgets to home budgets reject the idea of raising revenue.
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I don’t think they reject it for that reason. They reject it for other reasons.
If you take money away from people at a certain level, then they will earn less, spend less and you get recessions. That is what is going on now.
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Nick —
What level do you think that is? I think that’s where I’d disagree with you. This article is saying exactly what you did — if people at a certain level have little or no income, they can’t spend. Businesses contract, landlords lose tenants/money and there are lay offs because of this contraction.
If those people have more money, via unemployment, or my preference, via infrastructure projects (like the CCC) then there is money back in the system. AND those people with jobs are…paying taxes! So not only have you “primed the pump” but you’re getting some of the same money right back again.
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A couple of points arise from this.
1. We’ve had pump priming. QE1, QE2. If what you say is correct, then QE1 should have worked. It didn’t. QE2 didn’t work either. Why should QE3 work? It’s coming across as a gambler who has lost, doubling up, then doubling up again, in the hope of a win.
2. That money, pumped in either comes from printing (QE) or borrowing.
Printing results in inflation, pure and simple, and devaluation of the currency.
Borrowing just means that those receiving the money know that they are going to be hit with the bill for that money, plus the extra interest on top.
That results in a bigger problem that the problem its trying to solve.
Ask yourself a simple question.
Would you borrow money at 5% to get a return of 2%? I doubt it. Why should governments force you do to that?
If you want to prime the pump.
1. Stop spending and get the deficit under control.
2. Start paying off debts.
3. Cut taxes, particularly payroll taxes, taxes on the low earners.
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Davey nails it. I was born and raised in profoundly Republican home. I grew up unquestioningly supporting the “limited government” and “values” of the GOP. I still do. I’m very much pro-capitalism. I’m a small business owner. Over 90% of my entire life’s savings are in equities. I WANT corporations and the very wealthy (which I very much plan on being) to do well.
But the fact remains that we have a spending problem …AND we have a revenue problem:
http://economiccrisis.us/2011/04/60yearlow-tax-revenues-contribute-deficit-growth/
Reaganomics architect David Stockman has said so. Former Reagan senior staffer and Ron Paul economic adviser Bruce Bartlett has said so. Alan Greenspan has said so. And you know what? All of these men, along with the S&P ratings agency, have called for the end to the Bush tax cuts. I think it is paramount to note that NONE of these men are politicians. None of these men make their money off of partisan punditry. But all of these men are fiscal conservatives. Are they lying to us?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/are-the-bush-tax-cuts-the-root-of-our-fiscal-problem/
http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/09/news/economy/elders_economy/index.htm
http://www.frumforum.com/ratings-agencies-also-want-to-see-bush-tax-cuts-lapse
And if their words and experience don’t carry enough weight, let us not forget that Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/02/barack-obama-ronald-reagan-budget-taxes-opinions-contributors-rob-shapiro.html
http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/economy/reagan_years_taxes/index.htm
some more facts for your consideration:
history of top marginal tax rates in the US (the threshold for paying the top rate is higher than it’s been since 1964, and the rates themselves are lower than they’ve been since ’91 — when GHW Bush was forced to raise taxes to fix the budget):
http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html
U.S. rates vs rest of world (US came in at number 37):
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_hig_mar_tax_rat_ind_rat-highest-marginal-tax-rate-individual
the avg multi-millionaire/ billionaire pays approx 17% in income taxes vs the avg middle class earner who pays between 25% and 33%:
http://www.frumforum.com/how-the-super-rich-scored-on-tax-day
“Warren Buffet On Why U.S. Taxes Are Too Low For The Wealthy”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVOwaMWewGY
many corporations exploit a variety of loopholes that allow them to pay an effective rate of 0%; and some even “pay” a NEGATIVE rate, allowing them to MAKE MONEY off of refunds on top of their net profits using your tax dollars:
http://accounting-financial-tax.com/2011/06/12-big-yet-famous-corporations-pay-no-tax/
“The truth of the matter is that federal taxes in the United States are very low. There is no reason to believe that reducing them further will do anything to raise growth or reduce unemployment.” – Bruce Bartlett
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/
*Bruce Bartlett has spent many years in service on the staffs of Representatives RON PAUL and Jack Kemp and Senator Roger Jepsen. He has been executive director of the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, senior policy analyst in the Reagan White House, and deputy assistant secretary for economic policy at the Treasury Department during the George H.W. Bush administration.
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I think this article misses a key point and that is the addressing of revenue. When policies are drafted and programs adopted, they are done during the best of times, and hurt us horribly during the worst of times. They don’t scale and that myopic approach is what got us here today.
Further, I have a hard time believing that government jobs are the answer. Wealth is generated best by making money from nothing. Paying salaries and only getting part of it back in taxes is a bad investment and gets back to my last point — we will not need that employee forever, yet never really terminate them.
I’m afraid we’re on a slippery slope and a grand reset may be the only thing to dislodge us. Sweeping tax reform, sweeping program reform, sweeping politician reform and better education of our people on finance and wealth will right the ship. It will also hurt as change sometimes does, but we need to get off the idea that government spending is going to fix this.
When a company gets too out of balance or unwieldy, it finds ways to become more efficient and that means layoffs and spending cuts. The government never seems to make these course corrections because the board of directors (voters) will fire them.
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re your last paragraph…
er, not so much lately. Remember “too big to fail?”…don’t notice much “more efficient” operations out of those guys. Besides, the government, WAS those guys’ back-up plan in the contingency of a downturn, which is part and parcel of this big governmental debt problem.
There is a big difference between financial theory and the practice as observed in the wild.
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You’re missing the main point of creating government jobs. The purpose is not to get a small percentage back in income tax; that’s an added benefit. The purpose is to get people *spending* again.
The private sector right now is sitting on massive surpluses. They get tax breaks to help them hire more employees. But they’re not hiring. Why? Because there is NO DEMAND. Nobody has any money – or the confidence – to spend like we have in the past.
Once people have jobs again, they’ll start spending, increasing demand, and finally giving businesses a reason to hire more staff. They’re not going to start hiring just to be nice.
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WAY too political for this site.
Feel free to be controversial all you want, but it’s not why most of your readers come here. I suspect this hurts more than it helps anyone.
Also, lots of the premises are wrong (in my humble opinion). SSI does need to be reformed, because people scam the system – my child psychiatry wife has people physically threaten her on a regular basis for not signing their kids up for SSI.
Also, the older on Medicare AREN’T the “weakest” any more. The average retiree couple at age 65 is a millionaire based on government benefits alone. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703864204576314802790577650.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read)
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I agree with Dangerman, I come here to get advise on my personal finances and instead get an article on how one person thinks they could fix the government. While this website has tried to stay neutral, anyone can read the articles and forum chatter to see there is a liberal bias. In regards to the article, having the government create jobs for people won’t do a thing. The only reason it worked for FDR and our country getting out of the depression was because our country was sucked into a war. I don’t think anyone, either Republican or Democratic would want this again!
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where did you get “how to fix the government” out of this article?
the only thing she did was repeat the government stance of “how to get out of a depression”…ie. give people government jobs as per the first time we tried to artificially fix the market. IN fact, the entitlement programs in danger now, were actually created during that regime as a stop gap to “keep the people safe.”
And while I don’t think that will work any better than it did the first time (it was WWII and NOT FDR that ended the 1930s depression), her stance is certainly not unexpected. I’m certainly looking for another war to be generated by the industrial/military complex to get us out of this one. Something like 65% of the country either directly works for, or is reliant on contract with, the industrial/military sector. They gotta keep business drummed up.
And if we don’t at least open the subject of how to “fix the government” then certainly it will just keep on keepin’ on like it has and we see how well that works for the middle class…what is left of it.
Personally, when the government starts explaining how it’s gonna keep me safe, that’s when I start running.
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Political discussion has it’s place; just not on a personal finance website is all.
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WE ARE IN THREE WARS RIGHT NOW!!
We do not need more wars. Another war will not solve anything. Another war will not help anyone. Another war will not help financially, politically, emotionally, physically or in any other possible dimension.
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Stories about scamming government services are constantly used to advocate getting rid of (or reducing) those services. They COMPLETELY IGNORE the vast majority of SS recipients who benefit from the system, who depend on the system, and will be screwed if you reduce it.
It’s throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Don’t tear apart a system and hurt 95% of beneficiaries in order to stop the 5% who are misusing it.
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In the past, GRS has features articles about why religion is an important part of personal finance, about financial security for unmarried couples, about food stamps — about a variety of issues from all sides of the political spectrum. The site will continue to share diverse viewpoints in the future. The appearance of one article by one author does not represent a change in the site’s direction.
An important part of mature debate is being able to read and discuss ideas about which we disagree. If this article pisses you off — as the religion article angered many people — then argue your point in a calm, rational way. And folks on the other side: When people make their cases, don’t be rude. Don’t call them names. Listen to what they have to say.
It’s perfectly possible to have a polite, intelligent discussion about politics. We’ve done it before and we can do so again!
But naturally: If this one-article experiment proves ill-advised (and I’m well aware from the start that this may indeed be the case), then it won’t be repeated.
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J.D.
I think you comment in post #10 is probably pretty accurate, especially:
“If this one-article experiment proves ill-advised (and I’m well aware from the start that this may indeed be the case), then it won’t be repeated.”.
It’s one thing to try an open up a dialog about how best to deal with severe unemployment, ballooning Federal deficits, etc.; but this article promotes a view, without seeking to open up a dialog about the issues.
Poverty levels in the United States are roughly the same now as when the the United States started its “War on Poverty” in the 1960′s. Perhaps the solution is ‘outside’ of Government.
Social Security benefits were originally meant to keep people alive while they lived out the rest of their natural lives, which in 1935 was…61.7 years old. Today? 77.9. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
It doesn’t take a math wiz to figure out that the criteria for which the system was designed no longer fits. The Government used to pay zero to a few years of Soc. Sec. benefits for each retiree and with advances in medicine, public sanitation, etc. it is paying benefits for 15 years. That’s a lot of money.
Factor in the decreasing birth rates as compared to the Baby Boom, and we’re in a pickle. The biggest problem that I see with this article is that the writer seems to believe that politicians are looking out for the public good. While this may be the case for some, it most certainly is not the case for the majority–which is a problem.
One of the biggest problems with society is its inability to live with the fact that sometimes you lose your job–a.k.a. there will always be ANOTHER recession.
If people would realize that “these things happen” and don’t ALWAYS clamor for the government to “fix” things; then maybe we would elect politicians based on their *principles* instead of their *promises*.
I have Conservative bent in politics, and in using the following example, it’s not meant to promote my view, but rather make a point about the evils of the political process.
In the 2008 Presidential Election, then Senator Barack Obama railed on the un-American nature of a President racking up $4 trillion in deficit spending. What kind of deficits has President Barack Obama racked up? Around $5 trillion. What will his opponent in the upcoming election hit him with extensively? Likely the “un-American nature of a President racking up $5 trillion in deficit spending.”
The point is, ALL politicians play games with words and actions. It’s the way the system works.
The government CAN’T help you. They never COULD and they never WILL.
YOU have to help YOURSELF.
That’s YOUR credit card debt. That’s YOUR car payment. That’s YOUR too-big-to-afford mortgage. That’s YOUR college debt.
YOU got yourself into this mess. YOU need to get yourself out of it.
Senator Dick or Jane; or President Jane or Dick can’t fix YOU or YOUR situation. YOU got yourself into this mess. YOU have to get yourself out of this mess.
If people would allow that thought to pervade every aspect of their lives, then they would be more likely to elect politicians whose purpose is to *actually* help, instead of making promises to help with other people’s money.
J.D.’s note: I love this comment. It gets to the core of one of my mantras: “Nobody cares more about your money than you do.” It also points out that neither side of the political aisle holds the moral high ground here. There’s a reason I’m a small-i independent: It’s because I don’t trust any of those rascals in Washington…
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I like this comment, but I don’t agree with the idea that “The government CAN’T help you. They never COULD and they never WILL”. The way I look at it, the job of the government is to ensure a level playing field (to the best of its ability any way). From there, it’s up to you, but there’s no denying how much better off we all are with government services (e.g., police, firefighters, public school, etc.) that ensure that the “American Dream” is still possible.
I’m all for certain cuts (especially around Medicare and Social Security), but I think a lot of the current political plans throw the baby out with the bathwater and take a good idea too far. I agree that one needs to depend on oneself, but I think of my parents in this situation. Saved all of their lives (I learned good financial habits from them), bought a tiny house, didn’t go on any big vacations, saved incessently for retirement, and now those investments have simply disappeared. They estimate that they lost over a third of their wealth in the recession and at their age, they can’t re-enter the workforce. They’re much better off than some, but, sometimes, you can do everything right and life still kicks you in the teeth. Especially when we are talking about austerity measures, this idea that the poor are just lazy can creep into the discussion. While this is sometimes true, I have never seen a truly happy unemployed person (unless they are already financially independent). I think we should have a little more faith in our fellow Americans, the vast majority would rather be working, not collecting benefits.
I think all of the politicians should calm down a bit. We, as a country, have survived a hell of a lot worse. We get into the worst trouble when we rush into things without thinking them through or considering the consequences. Every cut that’s made is also another job on the line (e.g., cuts to public schools fire teachers, cuts to infrastructure fire construction workers). There are places for cuts, but let’s make sure to recognize the consequences before putting more people (usually middle class) out of work.
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“Poverty levels in the United States are roughly the same now as when the the United States started its “War on Poverty” in the 1960′s.”
No, they aren’t. Not even close.
Part of the difficulty with having any kind of discussion is that people, on both sides, depend on popular media for their information. As Mark Twain, a former newspaper editor himself, quipped “If you don’t read a newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read a newspaper, you are misinformed.”
I think the central point that government shouldn’t budget like a family is on the money. But we need to be clear, government spending money on hiring otherwise unproductive people and making them productive, is a different issue than supporting unproductive people who are unable to support themselves. The former does in fact lead to making the pie bigger, the latter is a straight transfer of wealth. Government does both. It also invests in public infrastructure that supports all sort of private productivity.
We live in the “richest country on earth” because we inherited the richest country on earth. Our wealth was largely created by previous generations who sacrificed their immediate gratification to build for the future and give us the opportunity to build on that wealth. Anyone who thinks they became wealthy on their own is delusional.
When someone suggests the country should “live within its means, just like your family?, I wonder what family they are talking about. When our family didn’t have the means to have the life they wanted, my father took a job over his lunch hour, my mother went back to work and we kids delivered newspapers. When my grandparents looked around the rural area of Norway where they lived and decided they weren’t satisfied with means it would provide. They, like many of our ancestors, picked up and move to the United States where they could create the means to have the kind of life they wanted. This country was built by people who weren’t satisfied wot live within their means.
There has always been a division between those who are concerned with keeping their share of the pie and those that want to grow the pie and their share with it. When the baby boomers were young, growing the pie was the public goal. Now, as they look to live out their lives, they are setting a public agenda that focuses on not putting what they have at risk.
The folks who talk about “running government like a business” seem to be focused on running it like a failing small business. The goal is not to make it bigger and better, but to take as much money out as possible before closing it down and retiring. Its the business model that faced with fewer customers, you cut your advertising to balance the budget. You stop investing in inventory. You don’t add modern equipment. In short, this is a group of people who want to take money out, rather than put money in. That’s great if you are a baby boomer whose life is coming to its last decades. But it ought to be resisted by anyone who still believes in the future.
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In my defense of the comment that poverty levels are ‘roughly’ the same as when the government declared ‘war’ on poverty:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2009/pov09fig04.pdf
Last time I looked, the U.S. Census Bureau is not a media entity.
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TC – perhaps the most amazing thing is that you provide a chart that shows poverty at nearly 20% of the population in 1964 when LBJ declared the “War on Poverty”. It has never been that high since and is 14.3 percent currently. Yet you think it supports your claim that it is unchanged.
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19% to 14.3% is indeed significant; but pray tell, why has the rate not moved a great deal since about 1967? Again, it supports the claim that poverty levels are “roughly” the same.
Also, if you will notice, that a significant decline in the poverty level, from 23% to 19%, occurred BEFORE the War on Poverty began. The number was trending down for five years prior to LBJ’s declaration of war.
I’m not blind. I can read a graph, as can you. I’m willing to admit that the numbers decreased AFTER the declaration, if you’re willing to admit that equally significant decreases in poverty occurred BEFORE the declaration.
The point of mentioning the poverty level being “roughly” the same is to say that government entitlement programs had a great deal less to do with the decrease in poverty than other factors.
If the government were so successful at eliminating poverty, then why has the percentage stayed at around 14.5% for so long? Is the government satisfied with that number? Why does the government have to spend ever increasing amounts of money only to stay at the same poverty rate?
You’re an investor. If you continued to put more and more money into an investment, but the “returns” relative to your investment continued to decrease or were flat, would you continue pumping money into the investment? No.
I’m not trying to say I can account for the intricacies of why poverty seems to be stuck at around 14.5%, I’m just trying to say that at some point, the government needs to reevaluate what it’s doing instead of literally throwing billions of dollars at a problem that seems to want to stay at the same stage of development.
Just a final (I hope) word. I’m not trying to say I have all the answers to the questions. I’ve responded only because I felt my intelligence was being questioned in your original response to my comment.
I don’t just take a headline and run with it. I try to base my comments on (at least some) available data. Your initial response to my comment appeared to be stating I was an ignorant talking head–from my perspective–and thus my vigorous response.
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I guess I’ll have to be considered ignorant and stupid.
In looking at the graph; before the war on poverty began, the poverty rate had steadily decreased from 23% to 19%. After the war on poverty began, the poverty rate continued to decline to “roughly” where it is today.
Poverty was on the decline before the war on poverty. The war on poverty may have ‘begun’ in 1964, but as anyone familiar with government implementation of programs is aware, it takes at least a few years for the program to be put into place. 1967, perhaps? The point is why does the government sink ever-increasing dollars into a problem that isn’t seeing any improvement. Shouldn’t that be a red flag.
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I thought this article was about economics.
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I respect your decision to post this commentary. But frankly, I don’t come here to read sloppy economic analysis like this that pushes thoroughly discredited Keynesian view points (that stimulus sure was successful!). I will be no longer be reading GRS.
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Wow, if one article, touted as controversial has you this upset, you’re even more tightly wound than I am, and that’s saying something! I think even I could stand ONE article that I disagreed with, especially since there are these lovely boxes for comments down here.
To make it better, you could actually post a refutation with links and everything, to prove your point, rather than just stating that something is false. Or refute her statistics on the example she gives — that’s the way to win a debate.
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Jen, everything you said is correct and well-put, but people have a right to take their business elsewhere.
They can do it for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reason at all. Being able to make choices is a good thing.
Even being able to make mistakes is a good thing. It’s how we learn. We watch others make mistakes (or read about them on this blog), and then we avoid doing the same thing.
Or, in my case, try to stop doing the same thing because if JD can stop, then so can I.
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1. You are assuming that the deficit spending by the Obama administration is equivalent to The New Deal. Even cursory research shows that the stimulus spending has “saved” government jobs and contracts. It has not created an appreciable number of jobs. The spending went straight to special interest and preservation of beaurocracy, not infrastructure improvement, as was the case with FDR’s programs.
2. “And historically in economies like the U.S., that has best been accomplished by giving them government jobs.” You must be kidding. If everyone worked for the government, who would pay for the jobs? A full half of the country pays no tax (excepting sales tax) whatsoever. Where do you think this money comes from? Thin air?
And I’m very tired of this “poor and hungry people can’t find private sector jobs. They need to be GIVEN jobs.” Sure, we should have a BASIC safety net for those on hard times, but there is no excuse for my taxes paying 2 straight years of unemployment benefits for someone. I’ve worked at unemployment offices as a contractor, and many of these folks don’t want a job, just the “free” check.
Sorry J.D., I don’t mind entertaining opinion pieces, but putting unsubstantiated and poorly researched class warfare rhetoric on this site is going to drive away your readers.
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If I wanted to read one-sided political rants, there are plenty of other places on the internet for that. I haven’t minded your past forays into politics, because they were more balanced. I don’t even necessarily disagree with the article. It’s just so biased and loaded with assumptions that it’s neither interesting nor informative.
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you mean “loaded with assumptions [that are not yours]“
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[Bareheadedwomen]…you seem to enjoy this article and ofcourse political discussion here. GRS will loose its value when we have people coming to this site for their political views.
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maybe when people start expecting the same fiscal responsibility this site teaches them (in all its individual forms) from their politicos…
the fiscal responsibility of the government to its citizens, rather than the IMF, will improve.
And I enjoy and comment on a great many of the articles on GRS, agreed upon or not.
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J.D.,
This is my first comment as I am not usually a commenter on this or other websites. I am respectfully asking you not to post articles like this in the future.
In regards to the article, the piece is obviously written by someone with a small view of the economy. There is one fact that cannot be ignored, and that is that our economy is going to go straight down the tubes if the deficit spending and massive debt are not dealt with.
I would respectfully suggest that the author expand her economic thinking and education to other schools of thought. While no economic solution is perfect, the authors beliefs are a good example of how we got into our current crises that really started with the advent of the New Deal programs from the 1930′s.
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Thank you for writing this. I’ve been trying to explain the differences between microeconomics and macroeconomics to family members who can’t understand why I clip coupons and buy in bulk, but don’t think [program] should be cut in a belt-tightening measure.
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If the site is going to go political (which it shouldn’t because this has nothing at all to do with me getting rich slowly) then it should at least present a balanced view. Sorry, but I have to read enough of this stuff in the rest of the news, its aggravating to read such a one-sided account on a site where I can normally avoid the politics. By the way, I’m normally a lurker, but was so aggravated that you chose to let Gilbert talk you into this that I made the extra effort to post a comment today.
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Funny, I keep hearing in the news about austerity and deficit cutting and decreasing spending.
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if the government starts claiming a right to make decisions about your wealth and labor, then yes it IS about how you “get rich slowly”.
Gonna be hard to build wealth if you can’t work; gonna be hard to keep your wealth if when you turn 60 the government all-of-a-sudden starts taking over private pensions in the interest of not defaulting on “the nation’s [IMF] debt”.
The government is not a dictatorship ….yet. But as long as we keep acting like it’s nothing to do with us personally, we’re gonna get surprised.
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I think part of the public outcry to “reduce spending” is the public perception that everything the government is doing to “create jobs” is just lining cooperate pockets.
The article mentions the historical “Civilian Conservation Corps”. I think that if the government could draw attention to modern equivalents to this (do they even exist? If not, create them!) people would be more supportive of government spending.
Yes, spending “more than you earn” is dangerous for a family…but if a government doesn’t employ people (ESPECIALLY to do civic works like upgrading/maintaining our infrastructure) then we face long term problems.
If anything, you could think of it as the government borrowing money to get really cheap contractor work done. Spending a little now to improve our infrastructure will increase the long term value of our investments. Yes, not so smart in the short term, but it means in the long term that they improved things at a really cheap cost.
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This article is starting from the assumption that it is the government’s business to “Invest in nutrition programs for two-year-olds.” This country was founded by people trying to live free and independently on their own merits. The upside of (true) freedom is you keep what you make. The downside is that you can fail miserably. You can’t have the upside without the downside. In either case, it’s the government’s role to protect you from others so you can succeed or fail on your own merits . . . not to get in the middle of it and choose who wins and who loses.
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no, the governent’s role is not to protect me from others. When did it ever protect me from the bank monopolies?
re-read the constitution. Yes, this country was founded on the idea that we manifest our own destiny but the idea that government was there to “protect” you has only been around for …oh 10 years or so.
Saints preserve me from any government “protection”. That word used by the government has mafia-esque relations.
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Wow. Just… wow.
I’ll be interested to hear from you the next time you run into some serious bad luck.
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Also – haha – those two-year-olds really deserve whatever they get, don’t they? They should’ve relied on their own merits to ensure they were getting proper nutrition.
(sorry for the double-post; JD, will we get the “edit” function back soon??)
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Unfortunately, the problem in the world now isn’t the same as in the 1920/30s.
If you look at the New Deal, the percentage of GDP that was spent on job creation was relatively small. Far smaller than the current US deficit. If extra spending was the solution, that extra spending that has already taken place (the deficit) would have cured it. It hasn’t.
The reason is that the current problem is too much debt and too much spending, primarily by governments world wide. The solution is not more of the poison. That’s the economic equivalent of voodoo (actually, Paracelcus if you want to do a bit of research)
You’ve got two things going on. QE and deficit.
QE is just debasing the currency. End result is people moving into gold to protect themselves. Doesn’t do the country any good, because gold is a non productive asset. It does work against QE and inflation.
The second is with the deficit. Ever wonder why people aren’t spending? It’s because the government is hoovering up the cash and spending it unwisely. They haven’t got the cash.
With the deficit that means larger and larger debts. End result is that governments need more and more cash, for just doing the same. In other words the price of government services is rocketing. Ever wonder why government services aren’t included in inflation figures?
Spending is not the solution. Not spending is the solution, and lowering taxes is the solution.
The question is then, who gets the priority when it comes to tax cuts. My view here is that first you have to cut payroll taxes at the low end, and raise tax thresholds.
Secondly governments need to drop a lot of their social programs and allow people to build up savings buffers against contigencies. If that fund isn’t sufficient, then society steps in.
Lots of reasons for this. If you take the UK, that would have resulted in pensions 4 times higher than the government provided ones. Ponzis generate no compound growth being the major reason. Having savings in assets also means funds available for companies to grow. That does kick on down, and Argentina is a good example until it stole all the money.
In my opinion, the government needs to take away money from the really rich and redistribute it towards the poor, e.g. by increased spending for infrastructure. This can even increase future earning power.
Changing the division of the cake, less the governments cut, doesn’t increase wealth. You only get that from working.
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re gold as a “non productive asset.”
was pretty productive for me considering it was bought when it was still under $300 an oz.
What’s more, gold & silver in a form that the government cannot enforce a recall (non monetary gold)…well…
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So far, this is the best article I’ve read on GRS. It demonstrates, quite clearly, that out of the box thinking – like Barbados – is needed in these situations.
What is key in the Barbados example is that people worked together to produce a viable way of solving the problem, and that’s something that is pretty rare in politics wherever in the world you go. And perhaps the irony of the whole situation is that that kind of attitude is something that’s pretty comon in many families…
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wow. Did not expect this sort of post here.
Do not want.
I am off this site for awhile.
Have fun with your political games.
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Austerity would be a horribe process if we went through it at this point… however, de-leveaging once complete would create a much more accurate picture of the true size of our country. The main reason we shouldn’t make drastic cuts and pay off all of our debt is because of the pain that we woud have to endure… pain that we have created by spending more than we earn as a country. We’ve made our economy appear much larger than it is via credit. The opposite side of your entitlement comments are that maybe we never had the money to do that to start with… the same can be said for tax cuts for corporations…
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First and foremost, this is an excellent post. On to my rambles
When is the last time that American politicians have done anything that was not, to a very large degree, self-serving?
Many of our representatives are lifetime politicians and, like all of us, want to keep their jobs, ESPECIALLY during unstable economic times. That said, members of Congress are not willing to make the tough choices that might actually help solve problems at a risk of not getting re-elected.
The policies of the past 50 years have gotten us where we are. Government has decided to fund hundreds of aid programs: welfare for the poor, corporate welfare, etc. There are VERY valid arguments in favor of each of these. The problem is that increased federal income from prosperity has been used to justify taking on more debt – NOT to pay down existing debt.
During the entire debt/austerity/budget debate, I do not recall anyone seriously proposing that we freeze spending at 2011 or 2012 levels. If you take a look at the 2011 budget analysis (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/pdf/budget.pdf), you’ll see a planned 5-6% annual increase in expenditures, resulting in an additional $8.5T in debt. At no point is there any attempt to slow spending.
I recently read an article (I wish I could recall the source) that claimed US companies had trillions of USD on the sideline waiting to be deployed. The main reason that this cash is on the sidelines is uncertainty. Recent medical care legislation changes the per-employee company costs for medical insurance. By how much? Who knows? That part remains to be specified. The law ends up being corporate welfare for insurance companies.
This brings me back to my original thesis: our representatives are largely self-serving, corporate Rs and Ds. Their accountability chain runs through those who fund their campaigns: corporations. Funny, we citizens have the power to correct that, yet seldom do. Congress has an 11% approval rating and an 85% (approx) retention rate. Does that make any sense?
The Barbados situation is intriguing because it demonstrated a country’s concerted effort to solve its financial issues. I’d like to think that could happen here in the US, but I seriously doubt it. Not many are willing to voluntarily give up their cable and cell phone for a year, sadly.
J.D.’s note: I like this comment, too. I once served on a small-town budget committee. It seemed to typify what people fear in government. When times were flush, the town took in more money than it needed, but it never set anything aside — it just found ways to spend the extra cash on goofy projects. When times were tough, the town cut the things that really were important (as a sort of lesson to the taxpayers that it needed more money?). It was a frustrating experience.
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“Recent medical care legislation changes the per-employee company costs for medical insurance. By how much? Who knows?”
On a total side note, my 88 yo mother has extra insurance from the school district where she worked for 12-15 years, she pays a small premium for this and uses it in conjunction with medicare.
This year, there was no increase in cost and there was a note included that after their analysis of the new health plan, they did not have to raise prices this year — a first in the last ten years.
She (lifelong Republican) was surprised, as was I since it isn’t a particularly liberal area — I’d have expected that they not mention it at all. I’m guessing they actually like it a lot to have done this.
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“When times were flush, the town took in more money than it needed, but it never set anything aside — it just found ways to spend the extra cash on goofy projects. When times were tough, the town cut the things that really were important …”
Isn’t that budgeting like most families? Somebody is buying all the crap advertised on TV and sitting at supermarket checkouts.
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Invest in nutrition programs for two-year-olds today, and perhaps you will save money in 10 years (less special education requirements) and 20 years (better employment and less crime) and 60 (healthy eating habits means older citizens require less medical help).
So what’s the evidence for this?
Spending is up massively. It hasn’t worked has it?
In the UK we’ve had this for the last 14 years. Enough time to see the results. It was rioting and looting.
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for North Americans (USA), our socialist agenda is about 60 years behind the UK…so what the UK has today, is what it will be like for your grandchildren (not factoring in exponential adoption) and our militaristic bent that the UK doesn’t have the land or manpower to have (but makes up for in diplomatic shenanigans). I’m expecting a bail-out for the class of 2015 in the form of mandatory military service for those defaulting. Which means we’re gonna have to have someone to fight (as NATO troops).
I repeat, take a look at British society and then state that politics has nothing to do with your personal “getting rich slowly”.
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Actually, statisticians tell us the real ‘tax burden’ (that is, the proportion of what people are paying, even the richest) is the lowest it’s been since the 1950s.
Early Intervention programs and other programs for young children with physical/intellectual/emotional issues have actually increased the proportion of adults with those issues who are able to function outside an institutional setting– which is good, because we closed most of the institutions in the 1970s; and improved the chances that those with minor impairments can become productive members of the community even when low-skilled jobs are increasingly rare.
In 1950, a child with mild hydrocephalus whose family could not afford medical care (shunt surgery) would have ended up in a vegetative state, and when his/her parents passed away, a burden on the county warehoused in a ‘home’. Nowadays, such a child can get the medical care and therapy they need to grow up a fully functional adult. Trust me, that’s cheaper than keeping them in even the most slimy, understaffed institution until they died.
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that’s income tax…doesn’t include all taxes: SSDI/FICA, state and federal property tax, state and federal sales tax, currency inflation (purchasing power), income deflation (tariffs, legislation allowing oversea competition)…the exclusion of which skew the numbers because although the lower tax brackets pay less of the former, they shoulder more of the later.
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Actually, the statisticians who are saying that the ‘effective tax rate’ and real tax burden are the smallest since the 1950s are actually factoring in non-payroll taxes, etc. Why does that work?
Because, as the Tax Policy Center pointed out, in 2011 about 46% of the population will pay no federal income tax (but will probably pay payroll, investment, local or state taxes).
In some ways that’s silly– it’s like the government of New Jersey taxing me more, or worse yet, not making their pension fund payments– to pay money to senior citizens to offset their local property tax. It’s just moving money around, but then we do that in my house all the time.
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“Tax Policy Center pointed out, in 2011 about 46% of the population will pay no federal income tax”
Its not really surprising that children and the elderly don’t pay much in income taxes, since they have no income. But I don’t think that is what the Tax Policy Center pointed out. They were looking at income tax returns, not “population”.
The fact is the income tax taxes taxable income. It does not tax people who lived off their savings or interest on government bonds or social security. It doesn’t tax people whose business lost money this year.
But the largest problem with this “factoid” is that it looks at one year, rather than how taxes are distributed over people’s lives. You pay higher taxes when single and earning less, you pay less taxes while you are raising your kids and you pay more when your kids flee the nest and as you move up the pay ladder. You pay less once you retire and nothing at all if you are living off your savings and social security.
In fact, that is what makes our current tax code fairer. What would be unfair is trying to equalize the tax burden so that poorly paid 18 year-olds in their first jobs are expected to pay taxes at the same rate as the well-paid senior management. Or a couple with three kids to feed paid the same rate as a childless couple.
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A study by economists at the Minneapolis Federal Reserve concluded that early childhood education had a huge rate of return on investment. The argument “it isn’t working”, isn’t true. It is working, its just not a magic bullet that eliminates every problem in the world. Its arguable that “head start” and early childhood nutrition are important factors in declining crime rates.
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Nick, again, I’m going a little off topic in my response to you and again, it’s to nitpick about details. Sorry but I think it needs to be done.
According to The Telegraph, the average age of (arrested) looters was 22 years, 9 months – which means they’d have had to have their useful nutritional course in 1991-ish, just after Thatcher was ousted, about six years before Labour got into power and seven years before Sure Start (Labour’s main government early year education initiative) began. By the time your “14 years” started, many of the future looters were already 8 or 9 years old, so it’s unfair to say they had the early years advantages suggested here but still rioted & looted.
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While I feel you’ve explained this point of view better than anyone I have heard thus far, I have to respectfully disagree.
Many of the Nation’s large companies are already operating on a global scale. Cutting tax breaks for them would almost certainly cause some of them to abandon the US for other countries that WILL give tax breaks. Countries they probably already occupy anyway. Countries that recognize the importance of industry in their economy. This shift could also take with it some of the nations brightest and hardest working Americans.
Also, many of the government services that are recommended for the chopping block by some are only there because of the large amount of people taking advantage of them. The programs designed to care and protect fellow Americans have created a way for people with a little ingenuity to live their entire life on these programs, without contributing to society besides paying their electric bill, rent, cable, etc. Your own blog is focused on living cheap as possible, and if you can do this well enough, you fall within the criteria to collect from these government programs and be set for life. Permanent retirement, healthcare included.
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“Many of the Nation’s large companies are already operating on a global scale. Cutting tax breaks for them would almost certainly cause some of them to abandon the US for other countries that WILL give tax breaks. Countries they probably already occupy anyway. Countries that recognize the importance of industry in their economy. This shift could also take with it some of the nations brightest and hardest working Americans.”
I think we need legislation that would force companies to pay taxes where their headquarters are physically located. There are too many companies operating phantom offices overseas when they don’t really exist there. They exist in Wisconsin, or Iowa or wherever. Put an end to those shenanigans would instantly increase revenue.
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So if we have this legislation what will prevent the companies from moving the HQ to a country which has favorable tax breaks?
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If you take Europe you can’t.
What about within the US. Are you going to implement laws that says a company in New York cannot relocate to Texas? [In general from a high tax area to a low tax area]
What about people? Are you going to introduce a law that means you have to have a passport and permission to move from one state to another, because the state taxes are lower in the destination?
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“So if we have this legislation what will prevent the companies from moving the HQ to a country which has favorable tax breaks?”
-And abandoning their offices in the US altogether.
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I’m going to betray my own economics ignorance, and reply with an (earnest) questions:
Why hasn’t every company in the country moved to Texas?
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For those corporations who have located phantom HQs in the Cayman Islands, Switzerland, etc., why not require at least 75% of the corporate board of directors to become citizens of whatever country the corporate HQ is located in order for them to continue operating in the U.S.
“Sorry directors, if you’re going to move your corporate offices to Zug, Switzerland, you’re all now Swiss citizens. Please show us your visas to remain in the U.S.”
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So the solution is to remove people’s passports when they don’t hand over their cash to the politicians?
More and more like Soviet Russia, isn’t it.
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the USA is already the only country to consider it’s citizens, citizens for life…taxed cradle to grave no matter where they live or work.
Not only that, try finding a country to hide in as a tax defector with the expedition laws.
You are tagged and bagged with your SS#. They OWN you…at least according to their records.
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The Civilian Conservation Corp was a Depression Era program, it was not created after WWII.
I also respectfully disagree with the core of your post. We do have a social compact to help those truly in need, but the entitlement programs have expanded beyond their original purpose and are now helping those that need to take responsibility for their lives.
Government’s help is a safety net only.
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I want to add that the CCC and all Roosevelt’s programs were declared unconstitutional by the supreme court…
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I apologize the CCC was not declared unconstitutional but the NRA (National Recovery Act)and the AAA (Agricultural Adjustment Act)were…and many of the other New Deal were repealed during WWII as they were no longer necessary.
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I’m also turned off by the political point of the article. I can appreciate that there are differences between government finances and household finances, and expected a discussion more along those lines, rather than a blatantly biased poltical article.
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People have got to understand that a financial life is not separate from political life.
The government started it; we’ve just got to keep up with what the government is doing to us.
My financial difficulties do not stem from credit card, student, or medical debt…
My difficulties come from (as a mature single woman, no kids, no property)keeping the government off my back and still having enough left to eat and pay rent.
And I don’t recall giving the government permission to use 15% of the taxes I pay it, UNDER THE THREAT OF FORCE, to go bomb other countries or to bail out the bank that charges me $120 in fees/mo because I don’t have a balance of at least $10k with them.
My father (age 65) doesn’t recall giving the government permission to play fast and loose with Fannie & Freddie and the world’s reserve currency to the point that he lost about 50% of his “invested” income literally overnight. And, my dad is the epitome of a Parsons who has done everything the exact way the government told him would be a way to be “kept safe”…yeah, kept safe from everything but the actions of the government.
Government policies affect my wealth tremendously!
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Love this site, but I’d prefer to read politically biased articles elsewhere…preferably not at all.
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Boy, where to begin with all the fallacies in this article? I’m not sure I have the energy to cover each one. First off, there is no austerity in Washington DC, period. No real spending cuts have been made the way the average person would define a spending cut. To understand this, you have to understand government baseline budgeting and all its gimmicky. This is a game of smoke and mirrors. Reducing a planned rate of spending increase is not a cut. Second, government spending has already been increased dramatically over the past two and a half years and has not improved the unemployment situation. Actually, I’d argue that this excessive government spending and new regulation is actually retarding a normal post-recession recovery, and reducing overall economic growth. The European style welfare state will do for the US what it has done for Europe– created a slow growth economy with reduced incentives for individual success and massive debts that will eventually result in crisis. Thirdly, “government investment?” Please….. Whenever I see the words “government investment” some kind of boondoggle or crony capitalist scheme can’t be far behind. The more money the Feds and states spent on education the worse education results have become. In short, stupid government spending by misallocating capital does not help the economy, it hurts it, just as it did in the 1930s by prolonging the Great Depression, and just as it is now by prolonging the credit crisis of 2008-2009. The best thing the Fed and the politicians could do is nothing….. and let the economy heal naturally on its own. Instead they are creating more distortions and malinvestment through artificially low interest rates and stimulus that postpones a true economic recovery.
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First off- I am very disappointed that this site has gone to a political front. This is about saving MY money and making myself better off. If we want to talk about the greater good then please start another forum for this. Second, read your own information- Barbados did not get in a better situation by INCREASING spending which is what you are trying to prove is the correct step. Our government HAS increased spending to an absurd amount over the last few years and there is NO BENEFIT at all. Instead of pushing for the printing of more money to further devalue what we all have now why don’t you push for the unions to agree to give up some of their power and money which would allow for services to not be cut and the government to slow the bleeding! Of course this will not happen because then the party in power would then lose power by losing the support of the ever so powerful unions that keep them in Washington.
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How can you criticize J.D.’s decision to take the blog in a political direction and then in the same paragraph add your own political commentary to the mix? This doesn’t compute to me and makes me think you don’t really mean the first part. Would you have said the same thing if you actually agreed with the article?
I for one don’t mind a blog that gets controversial once in a while. It makes for interesting reading, especially the comments!
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I’m sorry, but I think that it was a very poor decision to run this article. Even if I agreed with the opinion that the author made (which I don’t), I don’t come here to hear about politics. I come here to hear about being financially responsible. You say that the article was run because the author feels strongly about this issue, I wonder how long before the author feels strongly about another political issue. I just feel like I can’t trust the credibility of anything that I read here anymore, because one of the staff writers (not a guest blogger) is either unwilling or unable to leave her political bias at the door.
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Would you have really written this comment if you had agreed with the article? Human behaviour usually accepts what one like and has stronger feelings about something one dislikes.
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How does that work? Surely you don’t believe that someone you disagree with politically is unable to say anything of value to you on any other topic?
Good grief.
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Never commented on anything before; I guess this is what it takes to bring me out. I think it’s ok to have posts on personal finance which take some form of political tone, but this article has nothing to do with personal finance. Please don’t lose that focus.
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It will if the government raises your income, property, and sales taxes in order to make up for its short comings.
Reading and being informed with both make you better prepared and possibly give you a chance to do something about it before it becomes irreversible. Remember, these “entitlement programs” have only been around for our generation…our grandparents never had nor thought of such a thing until FDR shoved it down their throats in the name of “national interests”.
Got kids?
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I hear the argument about “We need to cut services so our kids will have a better life” but trust me, if we had to find a place for my grandmother and my mom to live with us, plus pay their private insurance premiums, plus pay private school tuition… even if we were paying no taxes at all, I don’t see how my son would have a worse life now and less opportunities when he grows up.
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I disagree. I think it DOES have to do with personal finance, as my situation and plans ARE affected by the economy within which I live. JD, add my vote to those who don’t mind an occasional topic that may be construed (accurately or not) as having a political slant.
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So, let me get this straight. Government spending increases from $2.4 trillion in 2001 to $3.7 trillion in 2011 and continued spending is the solution while austerity is a dirty word?
It might be interesting to make a distinction in your article between actual cuts to spending (reduction in year-to-year spending on program) versus Washington DC “spending cuts” (where spending is less than proposed).
In DC, “spending cuts” means when an agency wants a 10% increase in its budget but only receives an 8% increase.
Using your family example, this would be the equivalent of me claiming a did not receive a raise because I wanted a 10% raise but only received an 8% raise.
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Finally, I agree that an overt political focus is not appropriate for GRS. The site isn’t going that direction. This is a site about personal finance. But I continue to believe we can do one article a year like this, from one side of the spectrum or other. Yes? No?
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Only if both sides of the issue are presented. That would have made this a little easier to stomach, but letting someone use your blog (your personal finance blog) to get on a soapbox, completely inappropriate for the audience you have been trying to reach. If you’re trying to shift the demographics of your audience, that’s a different issue.
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I agree with Chris, this article would have been much easier to get through if there wasn’t such a blatant political bias. I really don’t want to come to this site and read politics – we get enough of it everywhere else (especially the author’s point of view on politics). I enjoy coming to this site because you are very careful to present balanced views, this really left a bad taste in my mouth and made me regret coming to read today.
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I believe that even one political article is enough to destroy the reputation that you’ve established on this site. If you’re willing to allow blatant political bias in one article, how can I trust that you’re not allowing subtle political bias into other articles?
It’s one thing if a guest blogger writes a biased article, but this was written by one of your staff, which means that she will write more articles for this site in the future.
Furthermore, this article is completely unrelated to personal finance. There are a million other places I can go to on the web to hear how Average Joe thinks the government should be run. There’s very few sites that consistently deliver good personal finance advice. Up until today, I considered this site to be one of them.
So my question to you, J.D., is why would you even want to run political articles, when political blogs are a dime a dozen?
J.D.’s note: You’re right, Shawn. And in fact, I just wrote the intro to this afternoon’s “spare change” links roundup, in which I admit that this was an editorial mistake — one to learn from.
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Really, why does everyone think this is a “political” article? If anything, it shows that most people that read this blog are unable to separate economics from politics (like most other people).
Unfortunately, in order to solve this economic problem, the government has to do something about it, which turns this economic problem into a political one. This is because the Federal Reserve has largely exhausted their monetary policy options that would normally be used to pull us out of a small economic downturn, so we need to look to fiscal policy, and the government, for answers… This of course, is impossible, because both parties are so hell bent on making the other one look bad, now more than ever.
I, for one, feel like this article is *not* an editorial mistake. The events discussed in it are extremely timely, and whatever the government decides to do has huge repercussions in the everyday lives of Americans. Imagine what will happen if the super-committee does not agree on cuts to the deficit in November? Medicare and defense budgets will be slashed for next year, just to keep the government running.
The funny thing is that no one knows exactly what will be cut from those programs… do we really want to find out?
JD, I know this is your blog, but maybe you can provide a link to Adam Baker’s blog in the article. He wrote a post a day or two ago that has the *exact opposite* viewpoint of this article. He argues that the government should cut spending since the situation we find ourselves in is equivalent to a family spending more than they make by a large margin. It’s the “government should act like a family” analogy that Sarah was saying shouldn’t be used. Perhaps people will happier with both sides of the coin…
Please, don’t just blindly cut economics (disguised as politics) from this blog though. I’m tired of the same old/same old articles from personal finance blogs, and truth be told I even skim some of the posts here now. Meaty articles with intellectual discussions like this one are worth the bit of comment moderation that comes along with it.
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JD, I’ve been reading you for years now…before you even started readily posting out your real name…before a logo was even thought of, before the addition of adware, while you were still a box salesman with a blog. We’ve exchanged several email conversions (under another moniker) over the years. I like you…but…
I’m terribly disappointed in your response here and will read your more detailed response re editorial mistakes, but dang, man…
if your site is such that its success can be derailed by a quasi-political article, then its not much of a success is it?
or rather, that perhaps you might be becoming more interested in its “success” than its mission. You know what happens when you try to please all the people all the time…
rather, you are not going to be able to remain a viable personal finance site if you keep your readers, and yourself, in cotton wool and insulated from the reality that surrounds us.
It doesn’t matter if the readers agree with the writer or not. What matters is that you provide the service of HOW politics may affect PERSONAL finance, because personal finance is what you do. Thinking about, or criticizing, the government because you think they think (or should think) of finances the way an individual does, is a good opening for discussion–not a dictate handed down to be absorbed and obeyed. The readers expecting otherwise are simply looking to you for a formula to slavishly follow so that they too can get rich slowly…
Which as best as I understand this site, is not your mission…but that to THINK for oneself about financial transactions and realize both the pluses and pitfalls for hands-on money management and not a blueprint that can be put in a binder and sold through “financial seminars” like you see on late night infomercials.
And right now, yes, politics is gearing up for another 1930s-esque MAJOR CHANGE in how our personal finances interact with it (government). Preparing your readers for that idea (people so love change don’t they?) seems the epitome of responsibility for a personal finance guru….
The title of which has been given to you, wanted or accepted or not.
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Bareheaded Woman, your condescension can be very grating. You seem to think that because people do not want to read a one-sided economic/political article on a personal finance blog that they are now the ignorant masses. The fact is, I keep myself fairly well-informed, and I prefer to have political discussions face to face with friends/acquaintances and family. To have it force on me in a forum I would not prefer is frustrating. Now, I’m not so rash as some who have claimed they’ll leave because this has happened once, however, if the blog does start turning this direction further, then I will leave, because I prefer to keep myself informed in a different manner. Its J.D.’s blog, he’ll do what he wants, but its my RSS feed, and I’ll do with it what I want. The way mine is set up, I have news/politics in a separate folder from personal finance and I prefer to keep it that way.
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Chris, I apologize if you have taken my tone to be condescending. It is not meant to be; nor do I think of anyone not accepting of a political slant to be part of an unwashed mass.
In fact, if there is anyone I “could” think of in those terms, it would be the suits in the white marble buildings who cannot, would not, and will not rub shoulders with us pleebs–nor care about our individual pains unless we have enough to make a campaign contribution (if then). I, myself, am part of that unwashed mass.
My tone “is” frustration over the concept that politics cannot, does not, should not be part and parcel to personal finance.
Whatever the fence you sit, we are entering a period whereby the way we currently think of how our government operates on the matter of “resource distribution” is going to change much like it did in the 1930s because government is changing the laws (much of which goes unreported by mainstream media). Not that we are changing exactly like, but merely the fact that we are going to go forward on a much different road than we have been used to travelling. We need to have a say in which road.
If you are interested in keeping as much of your own earned resources as possible, you are going to have to be cognizant of government actions.
And besides, I actually would prefer to have more people who focus quite acutely on their own personal finance, personal responsibility, and who are working on getting rich slowly, to be more aware of and involved with government action–which may or may not be you personally.
If I didn’t believe in the mission statement of this site, I, as a gold bug libertarian, would have little use for any practical advice given.
However, having a bunch of people who “think about fiscally responsible actions” involved in government–even if they are not gold bug libertarians–is a VAST improvement over the hooligans running things and making policy in D.C. especially if a little interaction causes some rub-off of the “we’ve got to take responsibility and get ourselves out of this mess without incurring more debt” philosophy.
I mean seriously, the government is like the infamous “family member who constantly behaves irresponsibly and how do/do you help them?” articles and comments appearing regularly on this site. It is just the fact that its “government” that sends most of us run screaming into the night.
We are all right quick to pass judgment on individuals with financial problems and discuss all the rights and wrongs of it…lord knows the government needs just as much intervention as the brother-in-law, mother, step-daughter.
An irresponsible government is just as potentially harmful to our individual bottom line as any of those other relatives…but unlike with relatives, we cannot just separate ourselves–or our checking account–from poor political practice, at will.
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Dear J.D.
Of course it’s fine to post interesting and well-written finance articles. This is one of them whether or not you agree or disagree. The thing that bothers me about the current environment (which is being acutely demonstrated in the comments pouring forth) is that people are not willing to engage in true debate, discourse, and exchange. If an argument is presented and people don’t agree, they get all out of shape, throw a hissy fit, and walk out with their fingers in their ears. In this post, it’s coming out as the “I can’t believe you would print something so completely biased. I’m never coming here again” commentary. That is the unhealthy and incorrect attitude running rampant that needs to stop.
If you are interested in having a good and healthy debate unfold on your site, what I do propose is finding someone to write a counterpoint to this theory that is as well-done and well-researched, as this piece. They don’t have to run at the same time or even in the same week but sure, please do present the opposite point of view.
But what it comes down to is the argument that posting content like this can call into question whether or not there are other biases or influences in the pieces chosen here. I’d like to point out this is a blog and not a newspaper. Newspapers are the ones that are supposed to be fair and balanced and there are supposed to be many steps in place to ensure this type of writing takes place (not that you’d know it reading newspapers lately).
Blogs aren’t. Everyone is biased and has personal preferences. There’s a reason, after all, why you pepper Robert Brokamp’s posts with awesome cat pictures instead of dog pictures. Will the dog-lovers and cat-haters rise up and demand equality in your blog? Do you have to listen? Of course not.
If you feel a piece is well-written and deserves publishing, you should have the right to publish that piece even if you can’t get a counter piece to run with it. You get the content you get and you are not obligated to present two sides to every story.
Of course if you hate dealing with the ramifications of this type of thing, you could alternatively decide to not run this type of content on GRS’ site but perhaps include it in the feed of your Google + account instead. Pieces like this get run there all of the time and are fascinating. Besides, your Google + is sad and lonely
P.S. I’m on Firefox and I’m getting these two boxes popping up on the left-hand side: Manage Your Finances and Most Recent Articles. I don’t know if you intended this to happen but it looks ugly as heck. The boxes are huge and run way into the main content area at the bottom. I can screen cap and email you if you’d like to see it.
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The question is, what will that one article per year add?
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We are not all Keynesians. There is no economic free lunch.
This article points out that while giving the poor government money may be desirable for other reasons, it does not cause growth unless you have a closed economy (non global, think North Korea.)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516412073445854.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Also, see wikipedia on the broken window fallacy, many interventions move spending up into the present at the expense of reduced spending in the future.
Entitlement programs? You may have paid SS and Medicare taxes your whole life, but the government spent the trust fund on other things. Sure, it is not fair, but understand that those programs no longer stand alone the way they were supposed to.
Austerity carefully done is the only way back to any kind of honesty about living within our country’s means and not leaving the deficit for the next few generations.
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What will have a bigger backlash?
a) this post or
b) the terrible slider pop-up windows
I’m no blog guru, JD, but this one is getting cluttered…and I don’t even see any ads.
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Both are highly unfortunate. I’m a longtime reader who has never commented. I’m disappointed to see GRS going down a political path.
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you’re going to be even more disappointed when your income is halved and inflation reduces what spending power you possess because of government action…
forewarned is forearmed…
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I just had to allow this site to run on my computer , as my virus control , which is a good one, blocked this site asx it said there were too many questionable pop up ads on the page. It has never done this before, I have noticed more stuff on the sidebars.
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I do believe that government should provide some services and help care for the poor and underprivileged in a sensible manner. However when money being spent by the government exceeds greatly what’s coming in, especially for a long period of time, it’s unsustainable.
I’m not sure that the government should try to create government jobs (CCC, etc.) but I do think they should take steps to make it easy for businesses to create jobs.
I do think a balanced budget is very necessary and can work. Here in Tennessee we have to have a balanced budget, so when tax revenues are down, things have to be adjusted accordingly. Because of this our state government will never get itself deeply in debt and really have to make drastic cuts like in Illinois and California whose situation is drastic.
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Your state, however, is one of the top recipients of federal aid, though the other two you mention are not.
http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2010/0309_census_dollars.aspx
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I’m going to respectfully disagree with the commenters who want to see “the politics turned off” on a personal finance site.
Look, we’re all sick of political posturing. And we’re sick of having to wade through political spin being shouted at us from every available media outlet- from CNN on TV in the morning, to the talk shows on the alarm clock radio, to the giant TVs they have for some reason installed in public places, etc etc.
But realistically- as much you want to turn it off- politics plays a major role in your personal finances. It influences how much you pay in taxes, how much you pay for health care, whether you need to send your kid to public or private school (or even home school), whether your business can trade with coutnry X and what tariffs your goods will face when you try to send them overseas, the cost of your groceries. I can go on and on.
Politics- or the macro-level stuff- strongly influences the choices you have available to you on a micro level.
Turning the volume off or pressing the mute button isn’t the answer if you’re frustrated- paying attention and getting involved is.
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Interesting article. I always enjoy being forced to think critically early in the morning, and I appreciate that GRS is exploring the financial crisis!
That said, I think the author hit on a key point that I would like to discuss. Barbados and Jamaica acted in very different ways to a budget deficit. But the country that came out ahead in the long run (my brother is currently in Barbados), is the country that rallied TOGETHER to improve the situation. When it comes to a country’s success, everyone is a stakeholder: business, government, citizens, even the military.
I think the one thing that will tear the U.S. apart is that everyone wants to take this sense of personal responsibility too far and not help fellow Americans. Just think if big corporations and billionaires like Warren Buffet WANTED to get together as part of the idea that “everyone does their part to help America”.
I’m not a socialist nor suggesting we steal from one group and give it to the other, but this country was built on immigrants helping immigrants directly and indirectly. I’m suggesting we act human and show some love and respect for one another.
I still agree with TC’s comment (23) that says we should take personal responsibility, but personal responsibility can also mean having a little bit to drop in the basket at church or helping your neighbor or your fellow human being.
Once we intill THAT value in the U.S. we will be better able to help ourselves through this economic situation. America is a great country and the people are looking for something (or someone) to rally behind. Until this happens, I’m afraid of the consequences.
Nick, the Self-Taught Economist
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I totally agree with helping others, but I prefer to do that through tithing to my church and giving generously through charities, as opposed to paying increased taxes a huge chunk of which never makes it to the struggling person that we all want to help.
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The issue though is we’d still need both giving and taxes. Churches can’t build airports. Charities don’t regulate banks.
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Chris, that’s so true. But the worst part of government’s forced charity is the disconnect between the giver and the recipient. That disconnect contributes to corruption and feelings of entitlement.
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**we should take personal responsibility, but personal responsibility can also mean having a little bit to drop in the basket at church or helping your neighbor or your fellow human being.
**
I’d add that it also means understanding that there is no one in this country who has made it all on his or her own. We have all benefited from things that we have done together as a nation — roads, policing, schools, etc.
Part of taking personal responsibility is accepting that you are not the one individual in the history of the country who has pulled himself up with no aid from the government structures we the people have built.
Are they all great? Of course not, and we often let programs go too long without adjustments, change or ending them when we create something better. But that’s a governance issue, not a “all government bad” issue.
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I do, however, wish we *could* come together and agree on something sensible — reducing corporate subsidies, oil subsidies, and defense spending along with the salaries of public workers (which is not technically comparable here as we’re not suffering from a foreign currency deficit) would be a great way to begin, I think!
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Thanks for the comment, Sarah.
As my dad always likes to say, “America’s a diverse place but nobody is really all that different.” Most people just want a few things:
- a safe and affordable place to live and raise a family
- access to healthcare and good education
- a good job that allows you to pay the bills, save, and spend on discretionary items
It doesn’t matter if people are watching Fox news or listening to NPR, as long as we all recognize we’re in this together! The U.S. government needs to ask the public for solutions. And we need individuals that with the capacity to have a civil debate!
While there are some comments that are out of line, overall I commend you (especially as a new staffer to GRS) for writing something that opens up a dialogue.
~Nick
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I eagree and disagree, the government should not cut spending in bad times, however to be able to do this the government has to save in the good times and be in balance with low debt going into the crisis. The US and many countries in Europe (Sweden, Norway, Germany are some exceptions) have underbalanced their budget increased debt during the good years and can now not afford to spend money.
This is a lot like a family, when both parent are healthy and working you save money, when someone is unemployed or sick you use those savings to bridge the gap.
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Amen. We had surpluses. They were eaten up by tax cuts and spending. Had we continued as we were, our debts and deficits would be smaller.
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I agree with JD’s comment about the ability and desirability of having a civil discussion about politics; however, I don’t want it to happen here.
GRS purports to be a PERSONAL finance blog. If I want to read political or macroeconomic posts I would go to a blog that covers those topics. There is nothing in this post that directly affects MY finances or indicates actions I can take in my own household economy in relation to these macroeconomic concepts.
In short, I am very disappointed in this new direction for GRS. If GRS is going to support authors who diverge greatly from their core concept, fine. But those articles should not displace the the ONE DAILY post GRS has. Perhaps GRS could put those articles on a second page and provide a link to them in a round-up.
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Amen to everything Kate said. I don’t believe it was JD’s intention to get political at all. This blog is about finance, and inevitably that involves those decisions being made at the national level that affect our pocketbooks.
I agree with the writer that those demanding the government budget be run like a family budget simply don’t get it. Even on a local government level, the balanced budget requirement here in Ohio has resulted in the loss of thousands of jobs as police, fire fighters, and teaching positions have been slashed due to lack of funds. Yet we have given millions (maybe billions?) away in tax revenue to entice companies to build here. Companies like GE, which paid zero in federal taxes last year on $5 billion in profit thanks to loopholes, and just announced it was moving it’s x-ray division from Wisconsin to China.
The argument that GE will increase local revenue by creating jobs is baloney. They brought workers with them. And it doesn’t replace the loss of safety we’ve experienced by eliminating a large percentage of the police force, etc.
This is an example of the kinds of dealings most Americans want to see changed. It is difficult to stomach the calls for eliminating the former fire fighter’s food stamps that he’s using to feed his family while at the same time government is allowing GE to pocket billions, move jobs overseas, and not pay their fair share of revenue.
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“DAYTON — General Electric officials plan to launch construction of their $51 million EPISCenter project in early August, after the Dayton City Commission voted 5-0 Wednesday to approve a 30-year property tax abatement worth an estimated $9.3 million.
While local leaders are quick to welcome GE and laud the project, the issue has triggered discussion about the need for a city and school district struggling with budget woes to give major tax incentives to the No. 6 company on the Fortune 500.”
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/tax-break-for-ge-tech-center-could-hit-9m-1206570.html
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Sounds like Dayton gave up 9 million in tax revenue that it wouldn’t have received otherwise in order to create up to 200 jobs in a market where unemployment is over 9%. If GE were having to compete against other companies to open a plant in Dayton, then this would be a bad move on Dayton’s part, but the reverse is the case. Dayton has to compete with the rest of the world to entice GE to open it’s plant there. It doesn’t really matter whether GE can spare the money or not, it’s about convincing GE to bring it’s jobs to Dayton.
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You do realize that you benefit from government spending, don’t you?
I’ve no doubt some people do.
However, I’m even more certain that the cost of this spending, does even more harm than the benefits of the spending. In lots of cases you’re going to be paying the bill many times over, because its borrowed money. In the case of government pension systems, you won’t get any compound interest, and that means your impoverished as a result, unless you can impoverish (harm) someone else.
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um…you do realize that “government spending” includes things other than safety net programs right?
what about the EB-immigrant visa program for foreign entrepreneurs, the contracts with BAE, Boeing, Lockheed for defense, with SAIC for robotics research, Oshkosh Corp for defense vehicles, United Technology for helicopters, L-3 Technologies for (civilian) surveillance and Reconnaissance and maintenance of government systems, General Dynamics for cargo vessels, Raytheon for cruise missiles, Northrop Grumman for nat’l guard radio equipment, any one of the myriad of food companies that contract to supply Dept. of Ed. school lunches, contracts with Monsanto, Blackwater…the list goes on.
65% of the United States is either employed directly by the government (government spending on its own bureaucracy..departments of Transp., Ed, Security, etc) or by government contract (lower tier suppliers to the above companies are also included in government spending–if the tier one doesn’t get the government contract, they aren’t going to be your biggest order placer).
So if 65% are reliant on government positions and contracts, 12% are reliant on medicare/social security, and 15% are reliant on unemployment, food stamps, welfare….
that means you are pontifying from a position within the 8% whose daily food ration is not in some way connected to government spending?
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JD,
I believe that what might be more useful (and in alignment with the tone/scope of this site) is an article or series of articles describing in a balanced way the differences between demand side (Keynesian) and supply side (Austrian) economics. If the article(s) provided an explanation of the philosophy behind each, as well as the data that both supports AND detracts from each, I think it could spark a lively discussion on top of the education of readers who are puzzled by economics.
Perhaps the phrase in this article that I most disagree with is “economists agree…”. The simple fact is that economists DON’T agree, and people who say “economists agree” followed by an argument of their choosing, are being misleading.
I love your blog and I believe a shift in the tone and intent of the article would have been beneficial to your readers.
J.D.’s note: Excellent points, Reggie.
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Well put, I’ve been trying to figure out how to explain what I would like to read and your comment says it well. This post was not to my liking, particularly as the author is so new, I have little reference to know what to expect from her. Sierra’s occasional religious bent is much more tolerable as I know it isn’t what she always writes.
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The comments got really long (I got about halfway through), and I felt like most were reiterating similar things, so I’m going to throw this out there and if it’s already ben addressed, I apologize.
I ended with the YOUR money is YOUR issue quote, and I appreciate that – I really do. It’s one of the things I love about this site, and one of the major ideas that brought me to the blogosphere of PF.
But what about PF habits that have been ingrained from a young age for people who don’t have access to these kind of sites? I’m thinking specifically here about generational poverty. Ruby Payne has some great work on how generational poverty and spending/saving habits are a result cycles of poor habits.
I wonder whether spending time working on personal finances with students from a young age would be helpful – integrating PF into social studies courses starting in middle school, when students can start making money through babysitting or yard work. If PF is inserted into curriculum, that gives all young people a better chance of developing good habits when they’re young.
But I’m not sure that’s an effective solution if we’re going to keep cutting public education funds (which I wholeheartedly disagree with).
I also know people were frustrated by the political slant of this post, but I almost think it’s remiss NOT to address these issues. They’re important issues, regardless of where one stands politically, and I think PF blogs have a responsibility to address them (I’ve read similar posts from the other end of the ideological spectrum, and I would still say the same thing).
Kudos to Sarah and J.D. for putting this out there today!
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I agree — I don’t see JD saying this is a change of direction as so many angry commenters seem to have assumed. Even if you don’t count all of the comments merely saying something like that, there are lots of other more substantive comments here.
I prefer being able to argue online rather than in person — I can post links to evidence, etc. whereas in person it’s harder to convince people to come to my laptop while I hunt around for what I want to show them!
Maybe once a month?!
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There is a error in the reasoning during the Jamaica/Barbados story. You use the example to prove “. . . the very worst thing to do in a period of joblessness is to reduce spending.” But both countries reduced spending, one just did it differently than the other. You can’t argue that an “across-the-board 8% pay cut” is not a spending reduction. You state that “An economy will not improve (at least not quickly) if you take away income from the people” but that’s exactly what Barbados did with the 8% pay cut. If anything, Barbados is an example of how cutting spending, if done intelligently and cooperatively, can have a positive impact on the economy.
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I get what you’re saying, but the difference is that Barbados shifted decisions about how to cut spending to a very individual, micro level; people who *had jobs* needed to cut their personal spending to adjust to a lower pay rate.
Whereas, in Jamaica, people who did *not* have jobs (such as school children) had resources cut by other decision-makers on a across-the-board, macro level.
The point is that there’s a qualitative difference between government spending and personal spending, in its effect on a society and how decisions are made. For some activities one type is more effective, and for other activities the other is more effective.
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This is not the appropriate forum for this article.
This is a personal finance blog with a slight bent toward wealth generation. “Personal Finance that makes Cents.” I understand that this may be an interesting topic, and even invokes the ideas of personal finance, but this is a political article that uses personal finance as an example.
Please keep the contents of this site to personal finance articles, not political writings.
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yeah, and unchecked and ignored government is going to make off with your wealth as fast as you can generate it.
I don’t understand how anyone can say government fiscal policy “does not” have anything to do with personal finance.
Especially when you throw out there that not only does the government affect your balance sheet with taxes to control deficit spending, it also dictates how, where, how much and at what age one can generate wealth…
Taxes on internet purchases? Government. Children’s lemonade stands to help teach kids earn, save, spend? Outlawed by government (and if you do it, you just haven’t “been caught”), babysitting money? You claim that at the end of the year right? Along with that extra cash you made selling your old CDs on Ebay?
Try selling your extra garden produce to a neighbor with an FDA/USDA official around. Try renting a room… you checked zoning right?
Government, local & national, affects your wealth and you need to know how.
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While I have enjoyed previous articles laying out the basics of government budgeting and taxation, this article made me uncomfortable. I would much prefer, if your editorial team does want to get into the political arena, if they would concentrate on the numbers, not the responsibilities of government towards its citizens. This article assumes a great deal of background knowledge on the part of its readers which most people, frustratingly, do not have. Questions that would be interesting: how did the CCC program work, exactly? What other countries besides Barbados and Jamaica (a sample of two does not fact make) have dealt with economic crunches during the same time period, and what other factors affected them? How does the government do its budget projections? How does the Fed work? Do we actually print money, or do we just electronically issue money, these days? There are tons of factual things that would be very interesting to read about on the policy end, without getting into the political arena.
I did enjoy reading this article, but I didn’t feel it was a very good fit for this website, at the same time. I hope that my comments come across respectful, and not angry. I enjoy this website greatly, and recommend it to people across the political spectrum when they run into troubles. Just this weekend I sent a link to a very conservative acquaintance in a bad spot (job loss) and I worry that if this was the first thing they read, they’d leave the site behind and not be helped by all the great information and community here.
J.D.’s note: No worries. Your comments are indeed respectful and not angry. And I agree, actually. When I wrote about government budgeting and taxation, I worked hard to maintain a neutral voice and only present the facts. I came away with opinions after doing the research, but I tried not to share them in those articles. Something to consider when (if?) we tackle similar topics in the future.
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I agree 100% with this comment. I enjoy reading articles like this one, but I felt both surprise and discomfort when finding this article at GRS.
I was surprised because I have never encountered an article this “biased” at GRS before – I felt like I was reading a friend’s blog post or an opinion article from a news network.
I was uncomfortable, I think, for two reasons. First, I am independent/undecided/wishy-washy in terms of politics, and also non-confrontational, so when reading this article I felt exactly like I do when two of my close friends from opposite ends of the political spectrum get into an argument in front of me. Second, just yesterday, I too sent this blog’s link to a politically conservative friend.
I hope that this feedback is constructive; I’m genuinely trying to sort out my thoughts about the article. I enjoyed reading the article and I certainly don’t feel as if all political topics need be avoided, but like Wysteria and others suggested, I’d rather that these types of topics be approached differently. I personally think that the suggestions for topics that Wysteria provides are excellent.
Sarah, please try to view this feedback as constructive – I intend it to be that way. I love your writing style and your bio, and I look forward to reading many many more articles from you!!
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I’m confused by the belief that other people should change their opinions or thesis (or just nnot write it at all) not based on facts and evidence, but because of people’s discomfort.
There is a thing as too much balance. I may think that greasy potato chips are healthy and thinning, may even be able to find some links that support at least part of my thesis, but the truth is that there isn’t a real “balance” on that topic other than to say that a little bit of something like that isn’t bad but a huge portion every day is.
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I guess, bottom line, does this kind of article support the mission and vision of GRS. While I personally agree with everything in the article, it takes us out of the personal finance realm and into political discourse, which these days our society seems incapable of having without it turning into a an almost religious debate (trickle down vs keynsianism). You can post what you want, but I think you’ll be muddying the mission of an excellent site.
Of course, you may not be concerned with that, as all Republicans are rich far cats anyway (or are on the verge of being so), and don’t need GRS anyway.
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I’m really disappointed in this post running on GRS–unless there’s going to be a follow up post from the other direction. In the past, J.D. has tackled potentially politically sensitive issues on GRS but he’s always made a conscious effort to try to portray both sides of the picture, which I appreciate as an add-on to the personal finance topics, to learn a little bit more about the world of finance at a larger scale.
This post, however, is entirely too slanted and shallow to be of any use. Like Reggie said, if it were so obvious what the right thing to do was, why aren’t we doing it? The reasons posited in this post are:
1. Politicians are misguidedly trying to run a country like you’d run family budget
2. Republicans don’t see the sense of accepted and obvious truths about economics.
3. (somewhat implied) Republicans hate poor/mentally ill/old/defenseless people.
Any argument that doesn’t make a real attempt to put oneself into the opposition’s shoes and see the world from that point of view, to then follow up with decent counterarguments reinforcing the original position, is pretty weak. People often think that they’re being entirely rational and everyone else is just being stupid, but that can’t possibly be true all around, all the time, right?
I really hope that if GRS has to have further political content, it can be at least of higher quality. Check out Megan McArdle’s blog (http://www.theatlantic.com/megan-mcardle/) for some examples.
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I have been reading this site for several years but this is the first time I am commenting. I really enjoyed this article and am happy it was posted. I am disappointed that people are so unwilling to read a viewpoint that is different from their own. I think we all too often self-filter our sources of information. I found the polite arguments that showed a different point of view interesting and I would not normally have had an opportunity to hear those voices. I did not enjoyed the rants.
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I believe it has more to do with the strong political slant of the article. As many people (including myself) have commented, JD normally takes care to present a more balanced side to politics, religion, ect. This article was extremely blatant to one political viewpoint. I don’t mind reading opinions different from my own, it helps with my understanding of where others views come from. My problem is that I don’t come to GRS for political economics…I come for personal finance.
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I don’t share Sarah’s beliefs on this topic, but was very willing to read her differing viewpoint. It one of the most well written and rational explanations that I have seen.
I think this is appropriate for GRS, since macroeconomic policies do have microeconomic impacts, but should be limited to about once a month, as others have suggested.
Also, I think this would have worked better as a two author post, with the opposing slant represented as well. This would bring it back to the politically neutral viewpoint that GRS is known for, and one of the major reasons that I enjoy this site.
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I made it through all the comments!
What I haven’t read in these comments — or much of anywhere else — is a critique of spending during the 00′s. If we do want to practice counter-cyclic spending, then we should not have increased spending during those years of economic increase.
Instead, of course, spending went through the roof. We went into the 2000′s with a budget surplus and, by the time the economic party was over, had a huge deficit.
To use the strained family analogy: This is the family who, with a pay raise, spends all the money and maxes out the credit card. Then, during a time of unemployment, needs to borrow money money to make ends meet…. at a time when we need to send the daughter to college.
Not very much of the GRS mindset, is it?
I think that’s part of the problem now. Instead of using that time to pay down the debt, or even keep more money liquid, we spent it. Whether that spending was appropriate or not isn’t something I want to get into — but the simply fact remains that we didn’t have the money when the economy tumbled.
And that seems to be part of why spending now is so hard — instead of having large cash reserves, we need to borrow truly large amounts to finance even the smallest projects.
What should we do? I’ve got ideas, but reasonable people can disagree.
What should we not do? Wonder why the government doesn’t have any money after a 10 year long spending spree. That part, at least, is obvious in hindsight.
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You may want to check your sources. My understanding is that there was no surplus in the 00′s. From what I have read, we were trending towards a surplus.
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Adam,
This is to what I refer: http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/
As I said, *going into* the 00′s, we had a surplus. Then we switched presidents, started fighting a landwar in Asia, and slashed taxes.
All were a mistake, I’d claim. Especially letting Clinton leave.
If only Chelsea was old enough to hire for the job ….
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And with a reference to The Princess Bride on my personal finance blog – my morning is complete.
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Assume for the moment that the original article is correct.
What’s the exit strategy?
Jobs get created (working for the government), debt goes up (borrowing to fund those jobs), and interest needs to be paid on the loans.
A couple of years down the line, the government does what? It has to cut spending. Those who have received the ‘investment’ have big tax rises (after all, it was an investment, so they have to pay back the money, plus the interest).
Is that an even bigger mess, because of the interest, than the current set up? Even more of a problem than spending cuts now because you have to service the debts?
That’s the problem. The original article is very selective in what it states as the problems and leaves off the disastrous results.
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Do you remember the surpluses we ran not all that long ago? That’s what happens.
And if we were smart, THEN we would have paid down debt and still cut some spending, by reconfiguring programs to be more effective and getting rid of programs that are outdated.
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i won’t lie, my eyes glazed over for this one. i tried to keep with it, but there’s a reason i’m not a governmental economist. hopefully there won’t be too many more political posts- if i wanted to rage in internet arguments i would go to a lesser site.
also, DISLIKE the new slide bar ads. wtf? why are things sliding around and about politics now? ;_; this feels like the new york times now, but in a bad way
i much preferred the static links. slidey links as i approach the end of the article just make me feel annoyed and advertised to, which is a rare feeling for this site.
oh good, they go back and forth depending on where you scroll. that won’t drive me bonkers.*
*yes it will.
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