Our Roof Repair: A Typical Tale of Working with Contractors
Published on - October 10th, 2011 (Modified on - November 3rd, 2011) (by J.D. Roth) My wife and I have been homeowners for nearly twenty years. In that time, we’ve done a lot of home improvement ourselves. But we’ve also learned when it’s best to hand projects to the pros. (To be honest, this is most of the time.) It’s great to be able to do small jobs yourself, but it’s also important to recognize when something’s beyond your ability.
During the past 18+ years, we’ve learned that working with contractors always seems to follow a similar pattern. I’m not sure it has to be like this, but it generally seems to be so. To illustrate our typical experience, I took notes on our most recent repair job. Today I’ll share our tale.
A leak in the roof
In 2004, we bought a hundred-year-old farmhouse on more than half an acre. It’s a lovely place in a park-like setting, but it’s also a bit of a money pit. There’s often something going wrong.
We’ve had trouble with the roof, for instance, since the first summer we moved in. Initially, we blamed the insulation contractors, who had cut holes in the roof for added ventilation but then failed to adequately seal around their work. As a result, the vents eventually developed large leaks.
It turns out, however, that the shoddy vents were only part of the problem. One section of the roof is essentially flat, which means it needs a different kind of roofing material than most of us are used to. When the previous owner last installed a new roof, he cut corners. (He was always cutting corners. Many of our woes are because the previous owner did his own work and cut corners.)
As a result, the flat section of the roof developed a leak. Or several. While I was traveling in July, Kris called me in a panic to tell me that Portland was having a severe rainstorm and that water was pouring into an upstairs bedroom — right next to my precious comic books. My comics were safe, thank goodness, but this certainly spurred me to action.
The roofing problem was one reason I canceled my planned trip to England. I stayed home, called contractors, and shepherded the project toward its slow completion.
Choosing a contractor
Whenever we’re faced with hiring a contractor, we get multiple bids for the job. This time was no different. We like to take recommendations from friends, though this doesn’t work in every instance. This time, for instance, nobody we knew had worked with a roofer recently. Instead, I contacted five or six local roofers via the web. On August 2nd, three of them came out to look at the roof.
- The first guy had been with his company for 37 of its 42 years. I liked him. He pulled up a section of the roofing to reveal that “the guy who did this didn’t know what the hell he was doing”. It was just one layer (instead of three) over some felt paper. “No wonder it’s leaking,” he said. “It doesn’t surprise me at all.” There were already soft spots in the plywood too that need to be dealt with. He said the job would be expensive, but the work would be designed to last a lifetime. The job would take him two or three days, and he was two or three weeks out. (I can’t find his bid or I’d share it here; it was highest of the three.)
- The next guy was young, but I thought he was sharp and observant. He noted that the leak wasn’t under the actual roof we were standing on, and tried to figure out where it might be coming from. He tracked the crease between the flat roof and the angled roof, and he found a soft spot with an “eyehole”. “That’s the leak,” he said. He tracked down other spots where water might got in, and also a spot where the water was likely flowing out. He downplayed the expense, saying it was no more expensive than any other roofing material. The job would take about a day, and he was about one week out. He gave us a bid of $2800.
- Like the first two contractors, the final fellow didn’t think much of our roof. But he didn’t really get down and look at it. When I told him our previous leak had been through a vent, he yanked on the current vent and said, “I think it’s here again.” He too thought our current roofing was a poor option for Oregon. He recommended tearing it off (and tearing off the shingles on the ridges around the flat roof), laying down a three-ply roofing system, and then installing new shingles back over the top. He said the job would take two days, but they were at least a month out, and probably more. He quoted $3500.
After meeting with all three men and getting their bids, we decided to go with the second company. They seemed to have the clearest idea of what needed to be done, they had the lowest price, and they could start almost immediately. It almost seemed too good to be true.
It was.
Repairs
The first sign of trouble was the constant delay. We’re used to contractors putting us off, but this company did it again. And again. And again. When I met with the representative on August 2nd, he told me they could start within a week. HA! They didn’t actually begin work until September 8th. Fortunately — or perhaps not — the job only took a day.
Mid-way through the repair, the company called me with bad news. “A lot of the plywood is rotten,” they told me. “That’s why it was so soft. It’ll take an extra four or five hours. And we’ll have to charge your for material.” So, as usual, the cost on our planned repair ballooned. I should have been wary when the crew was still able to finish the job in a day despite the “extra four or five hours” replacing the plywood was going to take.
As I’ve mentioned before, we’ve been paying our neighbor Chris to do some handyman stuff around the place. He’s been under-employed for a while, and I have more writing work than I do time, so this seems like a good exchange. (It’s one way in which I value my time.) So, we paid Chris to climb up and paint the patches that had been uncovered by the roofing project. When he did, he found problems.
Chris actually has experience with construction management, and is well-versed in the ways of roofing. He was flabbergasted at the quality of workmanship (or the lack thereof). “This looks like it was just rushed through,” he said. He borrowed a digital camera to take photos of all the things that were wrong with the repair. “If I were you,” he said, “I’d get them back out here to fix this. Otherwise you’re still going to have leaks.”
I called the roofing company and asked them to send somebody out. To their credit, they were very contrite. They responded quickly and efficiently. They took copies of our digital photos back to the office, promising to send a crew out by the end of the week to make things right. And they did. They installed new flashing and caulked the spots where they’d nailed through the shingles. They spent several hours fixing their foul-up — at no additional charge to us, of course.
When they were through, Chris and I climbed back up on the roof. “Well, it’s not perfect,” he told me. “But I’ll admit that any further complaints would probably just be seen as nit-picking. They could have done better work, but this should be fine. Just keep an eye on things.”
So, we think things are fine, but I still a harbor a few worries. Every time it rains, I go upstairs and check to make sure there’s no leak over my comic books. I don’t do this just once, either. I’m sort of compulsive about it. Meanwhile, I dream of the day when we hire a contractor who is punctual, thorough, and reasonably priced. There are times I think this will never happen.
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We used to be in concrete construction. I would go out to meet the homeowner, discuss the scope of the job, do the measuring and the math in figuring the materials, write up the bid, and tell them (honestly) when we could start. If the company you are dealing with is a reputable company, that start date will often be a month (or even more) in the future because of ongoing commitments.
I lost bids to competitors, of course. People that underbid. People that didn’t have competent employees that were being paid a wage commensurate with their experience and ability. People that promised to be there tomorrow to start and then sent one employee on a six person job so the project took six times longer to complete.
Our company got called in a LOT to fix the project after the contractor with the winning bid completed the job. It costs a lot more to pay a contractor and then pay another one to come in and tear out all the (substandard) work that another contractor has done, dispose of it, and then redo the job correctly.
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I’ve had frustrating experiences with house repair projects too, but the last three guys I hired were truly incredible. They did the work when they said they would, for the price they quoted, and did it with such care. Thanks to the amazing garage guys – the roofer, the guy who lifted the whole thing up and repoured the floor and leveled the aging building, and the guy who did the restoration to make the doors go and replace some old boards.
I am truly in awe.
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If you needed heart surgery, would you choose the guy with the lowest price, and the emptiest waiting room– and then go forward with the surgery without checking his credentials? This is essentially what JD did…. and what most people tend to do when hiring a contractor.
Hint: the guys who can’t get over to your place to do the work tomorrow are busy because they’re good at what they do and have multiple customers to keep happy.
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I, too, recommend Angie’s List. I’ve not yet had a problem with any of the contractors I’ve hired after doing my research there.
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Where is Mike Holmes when you need him?!
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We had the same experience with a contractor on our porch it cost us twice as much before it was done, a true bank breaking experience, but we must not have learned because we hired him again to roof some buildings on an old farm we inherited, and he left a huge mess!!!
We had a guy redo our garage 5 years ago completely sided and roofed it and it took him a little longer because he does this on the side but when he was done it was a job well done and he cleaned up everything. We have since hired him to fix our roof which was damaged in a storm. He shows up when he says he will and cleans up the mess when he is done. I am OK waiting for him since I know he will do a decent job.
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We had a new roof put on our house. Not because it was leaking but because we were putting the house up for sale and the real estate agent said we were going to get beat up on price as the rest of the house was pristine. A couple of houses in the neighborhood had new roofs as well, they were all that age, about 25 years old.
Only one out of 5 people we talked to was happy with the work done. That home had been done by Sears. So I called Sears. It was by far the highest quote but it was the most complete inspection, inside and out. He was the most informed about the process and the materials. We went with them.
Then the crew arrived. What a bunch of monkeys. there was about 6 of them. They made a mess and did some damage. At the end of a month the guy came to pick up his ladders and said, ‘oh ya its finished’.
I phoned Sears about the look of the ridgecaps and what about the stack of shingles still in my driveway. They really didn’t listen at all and just kept repeating to me, ‘So you want an inspection done’. So I eventually realized they probably didn’t know what I was talking about over the phone so, yes, send out an inspector.
The day the inspector was to arrive I came home at noon to meet him but he had already been and gone. I thought I should get ready for the back and forth hassle across the phone with them and tried to psych myself up for it.
Later that night when the inspector called and told me who he was and that he had inspected the roof and that he had a conclusion. I took a deep breath at that point because I could feel the hassle coming. Then he said, ‘your new roof has been installed wrong, we will be re-doing it and this is when we can get another crew there. I was speechless. I think I said, ‘Sounds good’.
The new crew of two guys was there on time and removed the old new roof and put down a new one in three days. Told me what they had repaired and fixed the ridgecaps and laughed about what the other guy had done. They told me that they were semi-retired but that Sears called them in from time to time to fix any problems that their other subs couldn’t handle and that they were on their way to fix a couple of other jobs the first guy had done for Sears.
So I was very happy even after spending the most bucks, just like my neighbor across the street who had used Sears as well. The neighbor beside him who paid about a third of what we did, had blue tarps on his roof the next winter.
The Sears inspector even said that the first sub had chewed up our eves-troughs really bad with the ladders resting against them and put new eves-troughs on the roof for free.
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I’ve coined a new term–Blue Collar Bullies. I’ve found, being a homeowner for many years now, is that it is really hard to find a professional blue collar business. And I think it is because these guys are typically uneducated and think that they do no wrong and that nobody can do it better. Think high-school bully. They know we can’t or won’t do the work ourselves, so they can get away with shoddy scams.
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In my opinion, the next time you talk to someone who sounds like this guy, you should suck it up and pay the man. The only contractors with whom we’ve ever had no complaints are this type.
You wrote”The first guy had been with his company for 37 of its 42 years. I liked him. He pulled up a section of the roofing to reveal that “the guy who did this didn’t know what the hell he was doing”. It was just one layer (instead of three) over some felt paper. “No wonder it’s leaking,” he said. “It doesn’t surprise me at all.” There were already soft spots in the plywood too that need to be dealt with. He said the job would be expensive, but the work would be designed to last a lifetime. The job would take him two or three days, and he was two or three weeks out. (I can’t find his bid or I’d share it here; it was highest of the three.)”
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I have also had some work done on my home recently (new roof and waterproofing). My dad, cousin, boyfriend, and I have done all the work. Although it was tiring and cumbersome, I know I saved myself a bunch of money and headache. My dad has never allowed for anything short of perfection when it comes to repairs. I am so thankful I have a dad that can fix just about anything. It has certainly saved our family thousands of dollars over the years!
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We have replaced our roof, had our house painted, and replaced our entire heatpump unit and all ductwork in the last 5 years.
The roofer came highly recommended from our internal neighborhood yahoo group. I don’t believe we even got a second bid as we were impressed and had glowing reviews from neighbors.
The painter was selected on suggestion from the roofer and while we asked for another bid, they never showed and we went with the roofer’s recommendation.
When our heat pump went out, the guy we used for heating/cooling issues quoted us a VERY high price. Enough to send us to Angie’s list and some other bids. We were pleased with another company that was well reviewed. They came in less than our repair guy and we felt comfortable with our choice (our “repair guy” didn’t have enough volume to even be listed on Angie’s list).
Between our neighborhood yahoo group and Angie’s list – I always feel we’ve got a great starting point.
Oh we’ve replaced gutters too. I was amazed at how quickly they went up when professionals were doing it!
Looking back, we are very happy with the roof, so-so with the painting (but it wans’t terribly expensive) and happy with the heating/cooling thus far (still waiting for heating to be used a bit more).
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It’s sad that we place such low value on the ability to do common household repairs. As a society we have placed far too much value on academic ability and far little on skilled labour.
Poor workmanship and the inability of homeowners to make their own repairs or at least see what was done incorrectly is the result.
Perhaps if we put less emphasis on academics in public school and a little more on home economics etc this sort of issue might not be so prevalent.
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My husband is a roofing contractor. He is not the cheapest. For a reroof, he may not be available for several months, because he primarily does new construction, and repeat customers take priority. He will tell you so. As a reroof customer, realize that you are seen as a one time customer – any warning bells? The cheapest contractor is frequently buying a job, and there is a reason he has to buy one. Definitely get several estimates. Make sure each contractor is aware that you are getting estimates. Think about what they are telling you to see if it makes sense. Don’t pay anything up front, or you may never see them again. Actual contractors consider job related expenses part of doing business and are prepared to carry them to job completion. Talk to people in the industry, people who have just had similar work done, and the suppliers of the materials that will be used on your job. For a roof, contact your local shingle suppliers.
By the way, your photos are downright scary. Really, really scary. In fact that looks like butchery (by what we term, with reason, crackhead roofers) I would go back up there and “think like a raindrop”. Now.
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if we go with contractors, what will be the estimated cost involved in repairing my home?
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There are two kinds of flat roof a realtor told me, ones that leak, and ones that are going to leak. I have learned to stay away from them. the first gentleman made you a promise you were foolish to pass on, He said when they were done it would last a lifetime. How much extra was that going to be worth.
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J.D. is this your house? It’s beautiful! I’m glad you let the professionals handle this one– you wouldn’t want to risk damaging anything on this house. Really. Gorgeous. Okay, I’ll stop drooling over your adorable house now, and get to why I really stopped by: home repairs. Like you said, there are a lot of things that you really should hire someone to do; but at the same time, there are lots of small jobs that you can do yourself to save money. At Mango Money we have a post with just some of those things. Check it out and make sure you’re not spending money where you don’t need to! http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2011/10/10/our-roof-repair-a-typical-tale-of-working-with-contractors/
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There’s always three aspects people look for in a project: Fast, Correct, Cheap.
If you pick the right people, you can get two of those. You will never find all three.
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I am a contractor-remodel, additions, repair, etc. and have been in the business all my life. I grew up around it as my father and grandfather were commercial and residential contractors so I have a pretty well rounded background.
If I have learned one thing in all of these years doing repair and/or remodel is that you constantly run into surprises or unforseen complications. When you start tearing into a wall or roof or foundation or whatever, you then can start seeing problems, causes, others mistakes, and literally their cover-ups.
In certain situations such as when you can’t tell with 100% certainty what is causing a problem I will tell a customer that until I know what the problem is I cannot (and I don’t) give an accuarate estimate of costs. I can get in the ball park but that is even ify sometimes.
As far as bids are concerned it is not always foolproof. Word of mounth and knowledge of construction (take some time to read up on the subject at hand) are the safest bets in finding a good contractor.
I have customers that tell me to do the job and trust me with the price and I don’t take advantage of that. I am certainly not the fastest guy around but I do better than average work and my customers trust and recomendations testify to it.
On other thing-quite often I get money up front on jobs and feel totally justified in doing so. I even have customers at times ask me if I need any more money during the time work is in progress. So ther are legite, good competent, contractors out there.
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I had a roof leak in my house the insurance company estimated a 2000 repair. I contacted 9 roofing contractors in Sonoma County CA where I live and not one called me back. I even called a franchis operation called leak detectors. no response.
I was siting in the hot tub at my gym talking to a guy. he mentioned he was a roofing contractor (wine country roofing) I told him about my leak and if he could give me an estimate. He came over that same day, fixed it and still hasn’t charged me. Said it was only a small leak at the sky light–It is an awesome experience to work with real pros instead of flakes.
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I just had a new chimney pan installed. The old one was completely rusted out and may have been leaking. I read this article before the contractors came over. I decided that I had better check out the work that they were doing while they were at my house. Just before they were about to leave, I went up on the roof myself and found that they did not seal some of the holes that the previous pan had left in my siding. They had also reused the old rusted screws from before. I told them to calk the holes and to put new screws on the chimney cap. I called the owner of the company and he appologized for the mistakes. I was quite disapointed in thier company but I was glad I noticed the problem now and not later.
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I just purchased my home in La Crescenta Ca. and have been remodeling it for the past 5 months. I have changed everything and I hired all subs myself without an contractor. I can tell you that I have saved approximately $80,000-$100,000 in total costs.
In the begining stages I had some contractors give me bids for landscaping alone close to $120,000. Which includes hardscape and landscape for both front and back. I completed the projects with subs for $80,000, saving $40,000 and I did extras which they would have never done.
IF you can always hire subs, trust me you will always save in the long run.
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