This post is from staff writer April Dykman.
One of my goals for GRS in 2012 is to write more about earning money.
I quit my job a year-and-a-half ago to become self-employed, but I know that most people are employees, and I’m the last person who would suggest that everyone should quit their jobs and become full-time freelancers. For one thing, it’s not right for everyone. It can be lonely, and it doesn’t come with medical benefits, which some people need, especially those who can’t get individual insurance at a reasonable cost. Depending on your career, it might not even be possible (never heard of a self-employed police officer, for example). And some people want to put in their time and leave work at work at 5 p.m., or just plain enjoy their job.
There are a lot of reasons why it makes more sense to be an employee, which is why I don’t plan to only write about starting a side business or freelancing (although I do plan to cover those topics), but also how employees can earn more at their current job and make savvy career moves.
A history of unsuccessful negotiation
I worked for one company or another from the time I was 17 until 2010. And one thing I never mastered, despite my sad attempts, was the art of negotiating salary. There was the job I took because I desperately wanted to work for this company with great benefits and “just be an editor” (not an editor and secretary and event planner and marketing coordinator and graphic designer…). They called, offered the job, and I said “yes” to all of it without even blinking. There was the job where I tried negotiating — I even researched how to negotiate and prepared facts and figures — but felt strong-armed into taking the amount offered.
In both cases I was scared they’d pass me over. I didn’t know what to say if they said “no”. I wondered if it was even possible to negotiate at either of these companies, or was it more that the common denominator here was me? So when I decided I wanted to write more about career strategy this year, I also knew I would need to bring in some experts. Obviously I’m not the best person to tell anyone how to negotiate their salary!
How the pros negotiate
Recently I spoke with Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich (the blog and the book). When Ramit was studying at Stanford, he got a group of friends together who, like him, were interviewing at some of the world’s toughest companies — such as McKinsey, Google, and Goldman Sachs — and learned the intricacies of interviewing, negotiation, and writing effective résumés.
I interviewed him about some of the top mistakes people make when it comes to negotiating salary, and how to overcome your fears.
April: What is the biggest mistake people make when it comes to salary negotiations?
Ramit: They don’t negotiate at all. We concoct all kinds of reasons why — “The economy is terrible!” and “I’m just lucky to have a job,” and “They don’t have a budget this year,” but really, we don’t know if it will work because we rarely try. In our research of 20,000+ people, we found that most of us are afraid of negotiating for two reasons: We were never taught how, so we don’t know what to say, and we worry what will happen if they say “no.”
April: There was one job offer where I didn’t negotiate at all! I accepted their offer right away because, like you said, I was scared they’d rescind the offer or think I was being difficult. What’s one thing can we do to assuage our fear of negotiating?
Ramit: Practice relentlessly. I went from closing zero interviews to closing a double-digit percentage of interviews once I practiced — and practiced in the right way. First, practice in front of a mirror. Then, record yourself. Next, have a friend run a practice negotiation and videotape yourself. Most of us find this weird, but I find it weirder to leave literally millions of dollars on the table over your career because we don’t want to take a few hours to negotiate.
April: What are the gender and age differences when it comes to negotiating?
Ramit: The data is clear that women negotiate far less frequently than men, costing them tens of thousands of dollars in the short term and millions over the course of their careers. They also use subtle phrases that cost them thousands, like “I think” or “I’m not sure, but…” There are very subtle gender pressures in a negotiation, so it’s extremely important to practice and deconstruct any self-sabotaging verbal or body language tics that compromise your position. This can work well — my female students negotiate, on average, $10,000 in salary increases.
April: Wow. I use those phrases all of the time! But some negotiating tactics sound like they could be pretty uncomfortable if someone isn’t good at selling themselves. Does successful negotiation involve sales techniques or some kind of Jedi mind tricks?
Ramit: When I was younger, I had to get scholarships to pay my way through college. I ended up applying to 60-70 scholarships, and when I landed my first interviews, I kept losing again and again. I finally decided to videotape myself and I discovered a subtle tic — I wasn’t smiling! In my head, I was a friendly guy. On camera, I wasn’t coming across how I wanted to. Once I started smiling, I started getting scholarship after scholarship. Is that a Jedi mind trick? Or is it simply studying the process systematically? None of this is magic, but it does require some unconventional approaches.
April: At one of my companies, my boss was notorious for putting people off when it came to an answer about raises — is it worth “bugging” my boss? Do a few thousand dollars more make that much of a difference?
Ramit: Even one $5,000 raise — just one — can be worth $1 million over an entire career. And people who tend to negotiate a raise once tend to do so repeatedly.
Well, there you have it. It was me, not them. I was a young female using phrases like “I think” who was too fearful to ask for raises because I was always hearing about budget concerns and how we were lucky to have jobs. I was pretty textbook, and a lot of that could have been remedied if I had videotaped myself. It’s a powerful way to avoid common mistakes — such as not smiling or using weak phrases that undermine your efforts — and to gain confidence before you sit down with your boss.
If you’re interested in more on negotiation, Ramit is offering a free mini-course that includes tips on overcoming fears about negotiating; the three biggest interviewing mistakes; the exact words to use to get a raise; and more. Here’s a preview of what you can expect:
Do you negotiate your salary? If not, what has held you back?
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A self employed police officer would be a bounty hunter, or a mercenary
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Or just a private investigator.
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Or Sherlock Holmes!
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Or a security guard?
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For women in particular, though many of the strategies certainly work for men, the book “Ask for It” is incredibly useful. The authors also have an earlier book called “Women Don’t Ask”. It’s a rather depressing eta analysis of many of the studies on negotiating and gender. The authors have found that when women don’t negotiate, they lose in multiple ways – they receive lower salaries, of course, but often less respect. And if they do negotiate, they can also lose because they will be perceived negatively.
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I’ve found there to be an additional challenge for women trying to negotiate: it’s rare enough that when you do, employers either aren’t sure how to take it, or they think you’re bluffing.
I wondered if this was the case in instances where I tried to negotiate, but I never had an confirmation of it. However, I recently sat on a hiring committee and saw the principle in action. When the male candidate tried to negotiate, the committee expected it and took him seriously. When the female candidate tried, the committee played hardball, figuring (openly discussed in the room) that she probably wasn’t serious – “women don’t really negotiate” – and figured she would cave quickly.
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That’s terrible to hear, but great to know. Knowing that someone may think I’m not serious about earning more money through negotiation because I’m a woman just firms my determination in the future.
It’s so frustrating that it’s two-sided – a lot of women don’t ask and when they do there can be all kinds of negative consequences. But, it won’t change if we women don’t change what is under our control – ourselves and our approach. Once enough women, whole generations of women, start negotiating for better salaries, benefits, etc then it will become part of the status quo.
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Recently I was offered a payment that the Old Me would have taken instantly. But this time I wrote back, “Frankly, I expected more” — and went on to explain exactly WHY they should pay me more. I also included a ludicrously high figure that I knew I’d never get, but you have to start somewhere.
We wound up meeting in the middle. I’ve never been a negotiator because I never had the self-esteem. It’s taken a few decades, but I am now able to say “I am worth it.”
Of course, it helps if you can PROVE you’re worth it. Back up your request for more with some good reasons why.
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The last time I got a new job, I decided what to negotiate for. I was staying in the same organisation, so I planned to ask for a 2 grade raise (bearing in mind that I was already close to the top of the proposed pay band). In the end, I didn’t negotiate, because they offered me a 4 grade raise, which I thought was very generous. Don’t regret it.
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I haven’t negotiated my salary. I was nervous because it was my first salaried job and it was my only job offer at the time.
When it comes to raises though, how long after you start at company is it good to ask for one? A year? Two?
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I dont think there is a set rule. Just watch for the time in which you did something important, or when you start outperforming expectations, etc…
When the boss notices you or has a good impression, jump on the oppurtunity.
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Search for some of the more recent articles on salaray negotiations here are grs. I’d say that in the past 12-18 mos there was an article written that spoke about when to ask for a salary increase. I think it had to do with requesting an annual review if one is not scheduled. I’ve been meaning to look up the article too so if anyone remembers where it is… =)
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For me, it was the restrictions of the state human resources that held me back. I repeatedly asked for raises and salary negotiations, but none of my managers could make the final decision. All salary raises had to be approved through State HR, and I could not receive a higher raise than any of my co-workers. The state tries to promote equality and in doing so, causes all of their best employees to fly to the private sector.
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Working for the government is a dead-end.
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Not really. Depending on what you do (and that depending is the key word), you may be able to make a killing afterwards in the private sector or consulting, in which case it would be a stepping stone and not a dead end. Some jobs have very good medical and retirement benefits, in some fields you can get your student loans paid back…that said, I’m absolutely each field within the gov’t has its own problems.
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Hm… I work for a non-profit so my boss is bound by a board of directors and budget when it comes to salaries and raises. He was disappointed last year that they didn’t raise our pay by more. On the other hand, when I first interviewed for the job, I gave a number on how much I wanted. Then I realized I would need more in order to live on my own so I called him later that day and told him I would need more. I still got the job and I’m on my 6th year here.
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In 17 years that I have been working, never ever negotiated a raise, and I had received as much as 17% without asking.
But one thing I always said to my employer has been : ” I expect my salary to represent the value you give to my skilss and results”
Always worked….
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I can attest that Ramit’s suggestion of practicing your negotiation and writing down why you should get more money does work.
I moved from Missouri to Illinois last year, I got a number of job offers, but they were all for just a little more than I currently made, not enough to even cover the cost of living increase.
I was nervous about negotiating since I hadn’t had to do it previously, but having written out my reasons for why I deserved a larger salary really helped. I was able to run down my list and after a few comments from them I was offered $10,000 more than they initially offered.
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All negotiating here is met with a resounding no and we’ve been that way for about 10 years; I can’t see ever wanting to put myself on the radar like that.
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Might be time to find a new job then…
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I love my job – after 17 years, I’d rather stay put than take a huge paycut to start over. When I read articles like this I always wonder why no one ever addresses the fact that in some workplaces, asking for money will only bring you (possible) trouble. I think you really have to take a hard look at the company dynamic before asking for more cash.
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Seconding this. Certain careers are so saturated, that asking for a raise may very well get you fired, because there are thousands of other super-talented eager kids willing to take your place for half your current price. I’m talking about the Arts, Graphic Design, anything creative like that.
For every graphic designer with a job, there are probably 50 desperate unemployed designers who are every bit as talented as you, and willing to work for half your wage. And employers KNOW this. Most companies have zero motivation to give their designers a raise should they ask for it, and every reason to get rid of you and hire someone even more talented for less.
It really depends on the field you’re in as to whether or not asking for a raise (even doing it the ‘right’ way) will help.
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@Kate, out of curiosity, what sort of work do you do/what field are you in? and are you in the US? I’m genuinely curious, not trying to snoop! I’m back in school and was temping before my return, so I haven’t had a chance to negotiate a salary and most of my friends are concentrated in fields where negotiation is expected. Another portion of my friends are in academic settings where they get a stipend that has minimal wiggle room.
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@Katie I’m in an academic setting, and there are all too many people who would do (or try to do) my job at a lower wage. And good for you in going back to school.
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I’m glad the previous commenters have had such success. That isn’t the norm.
I’ve been reading Mika Brzeinzski’s newish book “Know Your Worth” about women and salary. It is both heartening to know that I’m not alone in this and shocking that many otherwise successful women struggle with this issue.
And truly, many women also struggle with this at home too, even those like me who have a fairly equitable partnership with our spouse/SO. (For years, I ate cold dinners because my husband would get and eat his own dinner, without regard to whether our kids needed help with cutting and eating their food.)
One of my great hopes is to tackle this so I can help my daughters avoid the same fate.
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I had a little trouble finding this book at my library, so I’m correcting the spelling and title – small changes but made a big difference when I was searching my local library’s website.
Knowing Your Value by Mika Brzezinski
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll be picking it up tomorrow.
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Ramit is definitely the best there is when it comes to negotiating salary and for advice to land your dream job.
He hit it right on – the key is confidence. If you stammer or use “maybe,” they know you will fold easily.
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that works great with a company you can negotiate with. at my company every job gets the same pay and its a corporate policy. so all company admins get the same pay, all engineers get the same pay. and its not even based on seniority. i’m a pay grade 10, i’ve been at this job for 5 years, if someone new were to start tomorrow as coworker with my same job description they are a 10.
but the information is good to know if i ever work at a company where you can negotiate your salary.
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The main thing is to show that you will be a great asset to the company and by offering you the position, they are saying that they believe that you will be an asset. Once they are convinced of that most companies will try to keep their employees happy and that includes raising your salary if it means that you will be happier and will work harder.
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I do negotiate my salary, although I haven’t always. I have to thank my sister for making me start, because she learned to negotiate first and hassled me relentlessly until I tried. My three biggest raises from negotiation were 100%, 50%, and 25% (at different jobs, two nonprofit, in a field where raises are typically small and irregular). So I’m convinced.
I read Women Don’t Ask and found it depressing but fortunately inconsistent with my experience. I have been told I am very valued for being direct about what I want and what I deliver. I know from talking to my coworkers, both male and female, that I am atypical in my department for negotiating compensation. They tell me that they’ve never tried because the institution has a written policy with a fixed salary scale (true, but irrelevant). Some of them have been working here for 40 years! This is crazy.
Ramit is right that after you’ve tasted success you won’t want to stop. Negotiating my salary has made me a better employee. I have to justify my raises, which means that I regularly ask my employer what’s needed and then try to deliver it. When I’m successful we both win. As a result, I wouldn’t stay with an employer who wasn’t willing to negotiate salary. That’s bad for the employee and bad for the institution.
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That is my suspicion — that although both companies seemed to discourage negotiation, and one had a set scale, that it wasn’t as set-in-stone as I believed.
More importantly, I didn’t even try. I was going off policies and what my coworkers said. Part of me wants to get a day job again just to try this stuff out!!
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April,
From your first line.. .One of my goals for GRS in 2012 is to write more about earning money.
Why isn’t your girl then to MAKE more money? And if so, will you be making more money by writing about earning more money?
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I worked with materials from a gentleman named Jack Chapman (google him) and was able to negotiate a $2K increase when I first started my job and then a $6K increase after the first year. It takes a lot of practice, especially for women – because the consequences and perception of a woman negotiating may be, for better or for worse, different from that of a man.
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I have a mentor who can accurately predict what the outcome of a negotiation will be, just from listening to the first couple of exchanges. It’s really more science than art!
Many people have never learned about the real benefits they can get from knowing the dance…Integrative vs Distributive…WATNA/BATNA/MLANTA…Negotiation Continuum…etc. Just understanding the basics means you know more than 90% of the population.
Salary negotiations are difficult because, in many cases, you have the perception that your employer has more leverage than you. But, most of the time, this perceived power imbalance is a fallacy. The small incremental costs of increasing your pay a few percentage points is nothing compared to the lost productivity & money required to hire & train someone else for your position. You have a lot more to bring to the table than you think.
Ramit is BRILLIANT, too! I love reading his articles about negotiation.
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“When Ramit was studying at Stanford, he got a group of friends together who, like him, were interviewing at some of the world’s toughest companies — such as McKinsey, Google, and Goldman Sachs — and learned the intricacies of interviewing, negotiation, and writing effective rĂ©sumĂ©s.”
I get the gist of the article, but April/Ramit should not use employers that absolutely do not budge in salary negotiations as a proof point for having figured out how to negotiate salaries. In fact, chances are that a Stanford grad taking a job at one of the firms listed never had to negotiate a salary in their life before. McK, Goldman etc give every new hire EXACTLY that same albeit generous package for a given job. In most cases, what that package is well known among all the recruits going in or even published in various guides. Even as your career progresses in most cases your salary is “take it or leave it”, with zero room for negotiation. Negotiating is utterly futile with these firms.
Also, interviewing at those firms is utterly different from what plain vanilla industry interviews are like, so mostly not relevant.
I know because I work at a firm like that.
I am not criticizing the recommendations, but call bull on using fancy sounding firm names as trust-me-I-know proof points when they are entirely irrelevant.
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Ehhhhh, I don’t work at a firm like that, but I’ve had the opportunity to hear bonus compensation meetings at firms like that. Perhaps I’m wrong, but if things are set in stone then why do they do a whole song and dance justifying large bonuses and approving bonuses? It seems to me that some thing must be negotiable – maybe bonus amounts or structure?
But, I definitely don’t work there and it’s easy to mistake a situation from the outside.
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The song and dance about bonus is driven by performance. Depending on whatever metrics the specific firm uses the individual’s performance is measured. The bonus is calculated using a formula that is a function of two main variables: total bonus pool size and individual performance. Pool size however is rarely a surprise (unless it is a very miserable year or esp. good year), and is predetermined.
As an individual you cannot negotiate either the total pool size nor what your performance is. You can influence the latter with hard work, which is why the bonus is such an important incentive. I can usually predict my bonus within 1-2%, so this is really very formulaic.
My bonus is ~50% of my pay, so I take this very seriously.
The interesting thing is that within these firms nearly everyone knows what the next person is making. Base salaries are all the same and progress with tenure is also the same across everyone in the same role. Bonuses are based on performance, and often you know who the top and bottom performers are. The only guessing is for the various shades of gray of the middle of the pack.
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I’ve never negotiated salary for some of the reasons mentioned and then some. As a Black woman its not so much that I feared hearing “no”, I feared having the rug pulled up from under me and having the entire offer rescinded because now I come across as an arrogant, entitled (…) woman who don’t know my worth. I should be glad to be in that position in the first place and so on. Race and gender does change the game in ways many people should be thankful they never have to face.
Of course, it also depends on region, industry, etc.
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Yes! And I would love to see more discussion of handling these issues related to salary in posts on GRS.
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I think the only time I’ve ever negotiated, was for a job I didn’t even end up taking. It was right out of college. I got four offers, and negotiated the lowest offer up but only as far as the median offer; I ended up taking the highest offer, so my negotiating didn’t matter.
Since then, I’ve just accepted (or rejected) every offer I’ve gotten. I guess since it was always a raise from my previous salary, I felt like it was good enough. I am sure I have been costing myself quite a bit of money over the years.
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I always find these articles both intriguing and frustrating. I’d love to play around with these techniques but there’s the underlying assumption that negotiating a raise is even possible. For many places, salary increases are on a fixed schedule and have little/nothing to do with performance. I work for the federal government and so I’m tied to the GS pay scale. Negotiating raises is simply not an option. I’d love to see an article or two on how to better position oneself when working in such an environment!
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This is where I end up too. I work for a small nonprofit in the disability/human services field. If there was ever a recipe for “no room for raises in the budget” it would be us. I’ve been there 5 years and the raises are standardized and single-digit. Except for the year we were all under a wage freeze and no one got a raise. But at the same time, in the past 2 years there have been several 5 and 10% cuts to the rate that the state is reimbursing for the services that we provide, so the agency is making less money too.
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I can’t agree with this post enough. I work in a bit of an unusual field (software, which is unusual in a good way), in that once you have a few years experience, recruiters come looking for you, asking you to interview at their companies. In the last few months I’ve been contacted by companies like Google, Amazon, LinkedIn, Hulu, and been asked in person if I wanted to talk to Facebook or Apple. This really boosts your confidence. It’s a lot easier to ask for more when you know that half a dozen other companies will gladly interview if you just feel like getting back to them.
Nevertheless, you still have to do the negotiating. When I left college in 2006, I was offered a job at a startup company. The offer was for $60k. I responded to the offer with basically “well, there’s one other company that I’d like to hear back from still” and the guy hiring me asked how much they’d have to offer to get me to take their job today. I said $70k, and he countered with $68k, which I accepted. That was a 13% raise in five minutes effort. Since then, my salary has more than doubled, but it’s almost entirely because I asked. My salary since then has gone basically like this:
10% raise (offered by the company with no prompted on my part)
33% raise (I asked for it)
10% raise (I asked for it)
3.7% raise (offered without asking)
7% raise (offered without asking)
10% raise (I asked for it)
Then I took a new job. They offered me essentially the exact same salary I had been making at my old employer. I negotiated an extra 11% on top of that, so that could be counted as another 11% raise that I asked for. I also had a lot more bargaining power coming into that conversation because of the various raises I’d asked for at my previous employer (I start this new job next week!).
Look at the list of raises and look at where I’d be if I had just waited around for the company to offer me things. It’s a *huge, huge* benefit to negotiate for higher salaries, both when taking a new job and periodically when you feel like you’ve earned it for doing good work.
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Hello April,
Nice job on the article. This is exactly the opposite of “blogging about being a blogger and selling ebooks”– writing about *what you don’t know*, interviewing sources, going for a broad audience. Excellent!
I’m self-employed, but I could definitely use some negotiating skills to set the price of my services. So I’m checking out the free course and will try to figure out how to transpose it to my own situation. I’m not afraid of negotiating (it’s part of life), I just want to be better at it. Thanks for the link.
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ps – watched the video, was pretty good, not rocket science or any new concepts in negotiation theory, but a good demo
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I think that negotiating for raises is certainly a good idea if your employer negotiates. Mine does not negotiate.
However, is it realistic to expect $5,000 or $10,000 more for most people? Most people make under $75,000. So you’re talking more like 10-20% increases. That seems like an awful lot. Sure if you’re a Stanford grad looking at a $100,000 starting wage somewhere then getting $5-10k which is 5-10% more seems almost easy. But the median starting salary for a college grad right now is $35,000 if working in their field and getting $5k more on that is 14% extra. How easy is that?
What is a realistic % increase?
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Negotiation of salaries, or anything else for that matter, is about leverage. If your boss perceives that you give value to the business, and you are willing to quit, and your boss perceives you are willing to quit, you can negotiate effectively. Negotiation without leverage is an uphill battle. Thanks for the insights!
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This is the best and most insightful comment here. I absolutely agree.
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I think it’s a great point that so much money over the years can be left on the table just by being afraid to negotiate. This is not only the case with salary, but in other areas as well. For example, real estate. There’s no harm in totally lowballing and hoping to get a deal, yet some people feel like they’re insulting the other person.
In any situation, it’s important to think about the downside, and often we’ll find that it’s not as bad as we fear. Many times it just doesn’t hurt to ask – and to be prepared and ready to make our case why.
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The easiest way to negotiate is to get competing offers from different firms. I just had to tell the firm I was interviewing with that I had an offer for X amount of money and they had to beat it if they wanted me to work for them. They did.
This works for getting a raise too. If you interview for another job and get an offer, you can take it to your current boss and see if he will counter-offer to keep you.
This last raise I got, I just told my boss that I missed the raise cycle while on maternity leave and I would appreciate it if he looked into it and he came back with a 2% raise, easy. Sometimes it’s not even about asking for a raise, it’s about reminding your boss that it is raise time.
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I totally agree. This also applies to school merit scholarships. Tell the other schools what comparable or higher-ranked schools offered you, and you’d be surprised how quickly they match or beat the other offers.
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I agree with the scholarship part, especially for grad school. Always apply to competing schools — you may need the competing offers to get scholarships and work.
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Long comment, but I thought I should let you know that the content in Ramit’s YouTube is really effective. (Yes, I am a real human!)
I have always negotiated salary because I was taught to do it by a friend very early on in my career. I didn’t have any training or techniques (actually, what I was taught was to always ask for a small extra increment e.g.$5k). I watched the video and learnt a few things I could polish but I was also surprised to see some of the techniques discussed in the video as exact replicas of ones that had worked for me before. So, here goes:
- in 2004, when I was recruited for a sales role, I used the “I’m worth $75k and based on my last role I’ll make up the gap between what you have offered ($60k) in sales in no time” line (and then I did, doubling sales, increasing margin, etc…) Starting package ended up being $75k plus $20k car + (9% retirement contributions..) and I got a $10k bonus that year. A few months after starting I found out my predecessor who was promoted into a new role was on $10k less base than me!!
- late last year I had two offers on the table (one, a government job, where salary was paid on a band – e.g. start at the bottom and move up on the payscale each year, at the third or fourth year you end up being at the top of the range. I managed to get them to agree to start me on the top of the range (and this is a GOVERNMENT job!) i.e. instead of $91k base I received $104k at the top of their range plus their standard (excellent) 15.4% retirement contribution. (Total package $120,016 before tax.)
Luckily I received an offer 4 days later from the job I really wanted, which was $135k plus 9% super. Of course, most normal people would just take the second offer and be done with it, but as mentioned above I was taught very early on in my career that you should always negotiate, and so I managed to get an extra $8k on top of their first offer, making my final package $143k +9% super. (i.e. $155,870 before tax.) It did help that I had another offer on the table because I did feel that if the second offer didn’t work out I could always take the first one. The main way I achieved that extra 8K was through researching what other roles were worth (so I combined the excellent retirement contribution on the other offer I had with other similar roles that paid slightly higher..)
In summary I’m about $35k a year better off financially (well, I have to work a bit harder than the first role, but you get the idea) and certainly $8k a year better off simply because I went to the effort of negotiating salary.
Seriously, the worst thing they could do is say no, and then at least you know.
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I live in a state where employment is very high and unemployment is just 4% but even still in this environment, some employers like to remind their workers that they’re lucky to have jobs.
I’ve come to hate that phrase. Yep I’m happy to have a job, but that is no reason for people to stay at jobs they hate or jobs that treat them poorly.
Anyway I think negotiating salaries is mostly for professionals, I work at a calling center, where they can hire anyone off the street. If I tried “negotiating” they would laugh.
This is good advice for me later on though after I graduate from college.
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That video is a cliffhanger.
If Ramit is giving him the dollar amount he’ll pay him (50k), and the interviewee has to rebut with a higher amount, and justify in that meeting what he’s worth, the interviewee already lost.
In other words, if you’re going in for a final interview and the first time you’re discussing salary numbers is in that “final” interview, you’re dead in the water. Kind of like if you’re going in to close business, you already kind of know that you closed it by the time you walk in. All the work is done before that.
I love the format of this article, love the Q&A + video, it’s like a quiz. Nerd Alert! Thanks April.
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I have been a recruiter for over 10 years, it is is extremely rare where I have a situation that I don’t require at least a ballpark figure from a candidate before submitting him or her to a particular job. (I have worked as a 3rd party recruiter, as well as a corporate recruiter.) Even if they don’t want to give a preferred comp range, I get what they are making now (base salary + bonuses, vacation, etc.).
I do agree everyone should be able to negotiate, but if candidates/employers are not do not start to broach the subject of salaries/comp in the first conversation, they can end up wasting a great deal of time for both the candidate and the employer. Also, sure, it is helpful to say you have an offer from other companies, but if I always ask a candidate why if we met their demands they would rather work for my company and not the other one. If it is just a matter of money only, it makes you wonder how long the person will stay. So I would advise always having some other good things to compare the other offer with the one you want (ie., vacation time, perks, benefits, etc.). They may take you more serious about actually wanting to work there. PLUS why just a raise? If you can make similar amount at company B as A – if A is not allowed to give you more money, can they give you another week of vacation, or stock options or another benefit that you find valuable?
I get calls from other recruiters a few times a year with some pretty sweet opportunities where I can make more money. But I couldn’t work from home, or have the great benefits or work on the projects I do now. So find out what is valuable to you besides the base salary, etc.
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Part of getting yourself in position to negotiate a pay raise is keeping your life simple. Much like the principles taught here at grs you put yourself in position to be choosy with your job if you don’t have debt. Doing this will make you more confident because you’re not afraid your offer will be turned down, which is one of April’s points.
I negotiated a starting salary last summer. I felt I was confident and in a good position to do so for several reasons. 1. we live on DH salary so mine is unnecessary-I’m working only to pay off our mortgage early. 2. I researched. For me the research was easy though. I was replacing someone and I knew him so I asked how much he made per hour. I was offered $2 less than he made. I countered with $3 more. That’s a $4,160 increase over what the employer offered.
I don’t think my employer offers scheduled annual raises/reviews. When it comes the time I’ll be asking for one using the points mentioned in the article I referenced above, once I find it. A 5% raise seems reasonable to me.
DH works for a co on the federal pay scale and cannot negotiate his salary. He’s received a small raise each year. The biggest so far was 3.5%. But when it goes up each year the percentage compounds so it is important to get annual increases, even if they’re small rather than a 10% increase every 5 years. 5 annual 2% raises is, albeit, a little more than one 10% raise after 5 years. =)
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What this article fails to mention and Ramit doesn’t really highlight either is that for certain jobs there isn’t any negotiation of salary. As one person mentioned federal civil service jobs, as well as many state and local gov’t positions have predefined and public pay scales. Basically, there’s very little to zero negotiation about pay and benefits.
Also, for many blue collar jobs that fall under a labor contract or collective bargaining agreement between the union and a company, they sometimes have pre-negotiated wages that all new people or certain positions start at.
For those salaried professionals, yes there is some room for negotiations regarding salary. However, I don’t recommend the tactics Tyler and Amanda advocated in earlier comments trying to tell some hiring manager in an interview about other offers you’ve gotten … unless you have unique or VERY in-demand skills. This can backfire on you. I know, people have tried it on me.
As a hiring manager in a Fortune 500 company, the one thing I’m not seeing too much discussion on is what skills and experience are you bringing to the table and how was your job performance in your past few jobs. I normally don’t even talk about salary until I’ve already vetted the persons resume, interviewed them and asked many questions regarding their experience, skills, certifications, etc.
When it comes to annual raises–which in my company are done at a predetermined time once a year–it’s mostly about performance. We try to give most personnel a small cost of living raise (1-3%) every year, beyond that all higher level raises and bonuses are strictly based on performance.
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I have to echo the comments of Well Heeled Blog. I bought Jack Chapman’s book “$1000 a minute: Negotiating your Salary” before I was hired by the Feds, and it resulted in me starting out several thousand dollars higher than I would have. Since much of the federal salary used to be built on cost of living increases (we haven’t had one of those for two years) my initial higher salary meant that all of my other raises were better. The idea in the book is to only talk about money AFTER you are sure they want to hire you. It sounds difficult, because it is, but I can attest to the fact that it works.
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I’m currently working for a small nonprofit that doesn’t have much flexibility in terms of salary. However, by being willing to do stuff that was needed for the organisation but was outside my job description, they have offered me additional work at higher rates to do some web based communications – and who doesn’t want to facebook etc in work time? They are also paying for me to attend training to do this. Its a benefit for the organisation as they don’t have enough funds/work to employ a specialist, and a way for me to improve my skills for my next gig.
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Definitely a touchy subject for a lot of job applicants – many people tend to be afraid of any kind of confrontation, and thus will avoid any argument or asking for more than what they’re offered. It’s amazing to hear of how much people have gotten just by asking!
As for me, I’m going to have to try videotaping myself practicing to see the MANY areas I’m sure need to be improved on.
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It can certainly happen if you sell yourself right, and that’s really the goal.
I’ve been with my current company for 4 years now, I did negotiate my initial offer up by $2k, but that’s all they could offer at the time, and it was more than I was making before even before asking, but then over the years, I really put in a lot of effort and got:
1st year: 5.7% raise (no negotiation)
2nd year: 13.6% raise (negotiated up from just 9.1%, plus commissions target of 16% of base salary)
3rd year: 28% raise (negotiated from nothing, commissions target of 20% of base salary)
4th year: 25% raise (negotiated from nothing, commissions target of 25% of base salary)
Now, that’s almost 100% increase in base over four years plus the addition of a commissions line. This is by no means typical, and I’ve been told more than once that I got the biggest raise in the company, which I believe (the last two have been over 25% each). The first year, I worked my ass off and did much more than my job description said. The second year I decided to be much more of a sales person and it worked. Obviously, not everyone can sell, but by bringing in revenue for a company, you can move up in the compensation ranks quickly.
Lastly, I am now at about 40% of the median salary for my position, so there is some more room to grow, but it’s a fine line between looking greedy and pushing your net value.
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I haven’t negotiated in new jobs really for some reason, but I’ve negotiated raises and increased benefits multiple times in existing jobs. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.
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Since my company is about to have its 8th round of layoffs and our expense budgets are all frozen, it’s not exactly the best time to negotiate. Things have been along those same lines since I got hired, though. One day, I hope to have a chance to negotiate!
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Unfortunately, not anyone can just try to negotiate their salary. Well, they can but they won’t get it at all. First, you have to be an asset to your employer. You must be good at what you do. This gives you some power when asking for salary increases. Can the company afford to lose you? If you are important to your company, then you can ask for many things if you have guts to ask.
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This reminds me of when I worked for a bank as a teller years ago, and all raises were doled out supposedly based on both individual merit and the branch objectives as a whole. Even though the bank was making literally billions of dollars a year, our raises were always figures like, I kid you not, 26 cents an hour more. No negotiations considered. Which is why the bank industry has massive employee turnover, even though it must cost the bank more to constantly train new people than just give existing workers half decent raises!
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Personally, this is an area of mine that I struggle with. There have been times in my life that I have found myself working for absolutely nothing, merely because I did not bother to ask about the salary. Granted, this position was not too demanding. As we all know, time is money. Taking into account the magnitude of the position and the responsibilities entailed in the job is something to take into account when you’re negotiating your salary. Great article, April!
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I read a book when I was in college called, “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” which talks a lot about how women often don’t get raises because they don’t ask for them so I always go out of my way to not be that girl and ask for a raise at least one a year. Also, you are absolutely right that women asking for raises are perceived differently than men (so frustrating!).
One of the most shocking days of my career is when I had set up a meeting with my boss to talk about a raise. I had printed off all sorts of kudos from superiors and customers in support of why I deserved a raise. When I walked into my boss’ office, the first thing he said is that I was GREEDY for asking for a raise when my husband makes so much money. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I sternly told him that had nothing to do with me or the work I perform. Oh and I did get the raise, $10,000 worth.
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One thing I’d like to say is the fact car insurance cancelling is a dreadful experience and if you are doing the appropriate things being a driver you simply will not get one. Lots of people do are sent the notice that they’ve been officially dropped by their own insurance company and many have to struggle to get further insurance after a cancellation. Low-cost auto insurance rates are generally hard to get from a cancellation. Knowing the main reasons for auto insurance cancellation can help motorists prevent losing one of the most important privileges offered. Thanks for the ideas shared by means of your blog.
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My husband got a job offer recently and tried to negotiate his salary. They were offering him an entry-level/just out of college salary, despite his extensive experience in a similar industry, as well as his doctorate. They said there was some wiggle room with salary, so he asked for a reasonable amount higher than the original offer, expecting they would come somewhere in the middle.
He was confident, explaining his value to the company, but not at all arrogant or unreasonable.
The company said they would discuss the salary the next day, but then spent the next few days postponing the conversation. When they finally spoke, they said they rescinded the offer because they felt like he should have just accepted the lower, entry level salary immediately, rather than trying to negotiate. They obviously spent those days finding someone who would accept their low salary. They told my husband he should have just been grateful to get the job whatever the salary, despite saying throughout the interview process how much experience and value he would add to their company.
So, no, negotiating is not always a good idea. But then again, if you don’t negotiate, you could get stuck at a job where they undervalue and underappreciate your worth.
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