Reader Story: How My Nosy Family Taught Me About Money
Published on - March 2nd, 2012 (Modified on - March 6th, 2012) (by J.D. Roth) This guest post from GenQwerty is part of the “reader stories” feature at Get Rich Slowly. Some stories contain general advice; others are examples of how a GRS reader achieved financial success or failure. These stories feature folks from all levels of financial maturity and with all sorts of incomes. Reader stories generally run on Sunday and reader questions on Friday; this week, that order is reversed. (Blame it on the jetlag from J.D.’s return from South America.)
I was twenty-one years old and in need of a fancy, professional camera for a contract job. As a senior in college with a part-time job, I had no reserve cash on hand to make such a purchase. With a nod to the future, knowing I would “definitely” be using one when I graduated that spring in my full-time volunteer job with Americorps, I made the instinctive American choice. I went to Best Buy and bought one on credit with no interest for 12 months.
Of course, I neglected the fact that I could rent one, I neglected the fact that the job barely paid enough for the down payment, and I neglected the fact that I would be graduating soon and making no money at all.
My Nosy Family
A few months after my purchase, my family became aware of my naïve mistake. I came home during a break with a nice new camera everyone knew I had no way to afford. After lecture upon lecture from my accountant father and older brother (who majored in economics in college), my brother offered to loan me the money to pay off the camera purchase. I begrudgingly accepted, only after it was made evident to me by the fine print in the camera contract, which said interest would start accruing at 32% at the end of the 12 months.
I’d have to pay my brother 3% interest to cover inflation, but that was much better than 32%.
I tried to explain, to no avail, my thought process when entering this contract. I had a plan and was no child!
My plan was this: Take a zero interest transfer credit offer from a credit card company when the 12 months was up and swap the charge forward to another company. When that was up, if I still hadn’t paid it off, why of course I would just transfer again. It was like check kiting, but with credit. What could go wrong?
I was annoyed at my nosy family. I was angered at their judgment of me and their condescension. How could they think of me as such an idiot? I’d always been good with money.
The truth is, I was an idiot. I had no idea what I was doing.
My parents had worked extremely hard to put their children through college without debt. This meant that I attended a state school, but still I graduated debt free. What a gift they had given me! But in the process, no one had really explained how credit works. No one had really explained debt to me, APR, zero interest loans, credit cards, and all the other trappings of modern financial life.
Learning My Lesson
Through enough heart-to-heart talks and badgering, I came to see credit as an option only to be used for large, important purchases like homes or cars. A credit card is really just a month- to-month loan. No down payment, no interest loans are for suckers who get stuck with 32% interest on a $2000 loan for a camera they don’t really need. I potentially could have paid almost $8,000 for my camera when it was all said and done.
During my two years of full-time volunteer work, I managed to avoid the temptations of credit cards and cash loans. Working in a high school I had the summers off and worked enough to pay my brother back, with interest. I was able to start a real job, making real money, and live modestly enough to save a considerable amount of my paycheck.
As a thirty year old, I am a rare breed amongst my friends. I have a savings account with money in it, a retirement account outside of my work-provided retirement fund, and my husband and I have no debt except for our mortgage. In between twenty-one and now I have had my fair share of emergencies, car crashes, and pains. But had it not been for a nosy family, which is still nosy about my finances to this day, I might not be in the position I am today.
Of course, I’m nowhere near where I would like to be financially — but who is?
Not Afraid to Speak
I am now the nosy friend and family member myself. Everyone is afraid to talk about money, to talk about their debt, to talk about their financial plans. Just imagine if I had never brought that camera home. If no one had ever had an opportunity to anger me with their input, might I be racking up the debt blindly in good ol’ American fashion too? Might someone you know be making a mistake right in front of you too?
We are so terribly afraid to anger one another at the risk of offending someone’s intellect. But what we really stand to lose is the same thing we’re afraid of losing by speaking up: a loved one. The difference is if we don’t speak up, we become enablers of their financial self-destruction.
I can’t say when or how or what to do in this situation, but all I can say is that thankfully I had family members willing enough to step in and do something about my fiscal blindness.
GRS is committed to helping our readers save and achieve your financial goals.Savings interest rates may be low, but that’s all the more reason to shop for the best rate.Find the highest savings interest rate from Ally Bank, Capital One 360, Everbank, and more.
This article is about Debt, Reader Stories, Relationships
Disclaimer: This content is not provided or commissioned by American Express. Opinions expressed here are author's alone, not those of American Express, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by American Express. This site may be compensated through American Express Affiliate Program.
Discover is a paid advertiser of this site. Reasonable efforts are made to maintain accurate information. See the Discover online credit card application for full terms and conditions on offers and rewards.
SEARCH FOR RECENT ARTICLES
This is a great post, I completely understand the idea of swapping debt out on the 0 interest loans. It is no easy thing to save money and to avoid all the financial traps out there.
I have a mountain of debt on my student loans – I cannot get them lower than 8% and the government holds them. I have them probably close to twice the amount of the original loan and most of the principle is STILL left. It is horrible to have debt at a high interest rate. I’m so glad you were able to avoid yours!
loading....
Several years ago I started on a saving money plan. It was slow and debts were paid off slowly. If I got a tax return I spent only a small portion of it and the rest went on debt. I knew I only had myself to rely on. I did many things to help many family members but I knew that they were a self focused bunch and if I had trouble they would simply ask why? Put me down and not help at all. So I continued on doing my best. What happened over time is that I became very content with my limited life style. My daughter is also the same and even better money manager than I am. I find that almost no one wants to talk about money. How they spend it etc. Many eat out spending $20. – $40. a day. They borrow on their house to do other things they would like to do. If I mention that I try to save first. They look at me like who do you think you are? No one can do that. So now that my daughter is grown she and I talk about money. We use coupons, sales, buy less, use up what we have. It is really a great way to live. Not nearly so much stress. We are content in our life style. I seriously wish others would give it an honest try. Our country isn’t doing so well and the only way to feel secure is to have things paid for. I had to retire 3 years earlier than planned and my pension is not nearly as much as I hoped. But with the savings too I am able to make it. If I find I’m spending to much of savings I’ll begin an Etsy shop and bring in a little extra. Thank you for sharing the way you plan your money.
loading....
There are family interventions for drug abuse, compulsive gambling, etc. Why not for stupid debt?
You obviously have a good relationship with your family–they love you enough to risk alienating you.
loading....
So true- why no debt interventions? In the end, family members’ debt and money problems usually end up affecting the others. For some reason, it is considered overstepping your boundaries if you try to ‘tell’ someone else how to spend/save their money but it is frustrating to have to say no later when that person asks you if they can borrow money…
loading....
Liz Weston wrote an article on financial interventions, but says they usually don’t go well. (Interventions for drugs and alcohol are generally done by professionals and rehearsed; financial interventions tend to be spontaneous.) The article gives a few ideas on how to help, short of a full-blown confrontation.
http://money.msn.com/family-money/can-you-stop-a-money-train-wreck-weston.aspx
loading....
But at what point do you stage an intervention? Is it that they are not saving anything for retirement and you know they should? Does it matter if the person in question is 25 vs. 45 vs. 55? Is it when they don’t have any debt but spend every penny they earn? Is it that they are not hustling hard enough to make more money? I generally find family + money to be a very combustible or at least uncomfortable conversation, so I avoid those topics.
loading....
I would say its A) when they ask for a hand out; B) They complain on how they have the worst “luck” and take no responsibility for their choices/can’t see how their choices has crafted their life; and/or C)are managing their money so poorly that they hurt their families.
I wouldnt do an intervention exactly…just sit then down and talk about the realty of the situation and come up with a plan to fix it.
loading....
It’s true that her family loved her enough to talk with her about it. In most families when the young person is still being supported, even partly, by their family, it’s easier to talk to them about money. Once they are supporting themeseves totally it gets more difficult in most families. When our kids graduated from college I gave them a book on finances because I thought they would “listen” to the book more than me at that point.
loading....
In North America, we get yelled at all day. We’re to buy now, put it on plastic, stop thinking about tomorrow. We’re told we deserve it, we need it, our friends will laugh at us without it.
I’m not negating personal responsibility – when it comes to credit, we are the authors of our own misery.
A stern lecture seems to be what most credit users are lacking. They live in imagination land, propelled by cognitive dissonance and marketing. Maybe an angry finger could snap them back to reality.
loading....
“We’re told we deserve it, we need it…” This is a big one with my family. They look at me like I have ten heads when I don’t eat out with them all the time and stay home to cook, or if I say “no” to an impulse buy. “But it will make you feel better, and you deserve it, you’ve worked so hard!” is what they say. Impulse buys and spending certainly do make me feel better, but only for a short while. I work so hard so that I don’t have to be in debt and can live more free! (and by free, I mean without the burden of debt and without the burden of feeling like I need to keep up with the Jones’ or buy things to make me happy)
loading....
Good points BlueCollarWoman and cheers to you for standing your ground. They will thank you for it in 10 years.
Credit can be an evil thing that seeks to enslave us. That’s for sure!
loading....
A lot of people can’t actually imagine being out of debt, or even getting a paycheck that’s not already spent, so they can’t weigh that feeling against more immediate pleasures. And getting to that feeling takes so long, if you’re starting out in the hole you have to take that long gamble over and over and over before it ever pays off.
loading....
I completely agree. We’re told that spending is good because we earned the money, so we deserve to get what we want, etc.
I also think that most people in the US (and around the world) are under the delusion that spending is good for the economy. Spending is no better for the economy than it is for the individual! If you want to help american businesses, save your money!
loading....
The problem arises in that consumer spending is, in fact, good for the economy. If everyone practiced what PF blogs stress, millions more people would be jobless, as there would be little or no demand for their services or for the consumer goods they produce. The economy as a whole would be in deep trouble.
It’s called “the paradox of thrift” and, Iike all paradoxes, has no solution.
loading....
The problem arises in that consumer spending is, in fact, vital for the economy. If everyone practiced what PF blogs stress, millions more people would be jobless, as there would be little or no demand for their services or for the consumer goods they produce. The economy as a whole would be in much deeper trouble than it is.
It’s called “the paradox of thrift” and, Iike all paradoxes, has no solution.
loading....
That’s the exact type of thinking that’s getting us into trouble. Consumer spending is a hindrance to the economy. Consumer spending is no more vital to the nation’s economy than your personal spending is vital to your own personal economy. People will always buy what they need. I agree, that’s good for you, and good for the economy. But, if people stopped buying what they don’t need, the economy would be better.
I know it’s counterintuitive, but think deeply about it (or just read Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt): if I decide to only buy what I need, then the people at Apple lose their jobs. Then, they have to get new jobs. Since people are only buying food and shelter now (things they need, not want), they can afford to spend more for it. So, the people at Apple then get jobs at grocery stores and real estate agencies etc, who can now hire because people are willing to pay more for their goods and services. Then the Apple people only buy food and shelter. Savings build up, banks have more money to loan out, so that if people decide they do want something they don’t need, a business can raise the capital to provide it.
When consumer spending drops, people lose their jobs. That’s bad in the short term. What about in the long run? Any money we spend on something we don’t need is wasted capital. Obviously it will happen, but to think the economy is dependent on wasted capital is to think that a baseball team is dependent on spending money, and not on what it’s getting in return.
loading....
Matt, I’m sorry but that is nonsense.
loading....
No need to apologize, Andrew. Most people can’t wrap their heads around it. It’s very much in contradiction to American economic dogma. It makes perfect sense if you think about it logically. I used to think like you, until I started thinking with pure logic.
loading....
Actually a reply to Matt, but I hit the nested limit…
But you didn’t actually reduce consumer spending in that scenario – you shifted the consumer spending from Apple products to food and housing.
loading....
Consumer spending is reduced. There’s more spent on food/housing, but there’s less total (net) spent. Even though food/shelter is now more expensive, not buying Apple more than makes up for it. When profit margins in the grocery/housing businesses start to rise, it attracts competition. So, then prices will go down from their highs, which were never able to reach the theoretical maximum because competition in the free market kicks in before that happens. Then food/shelter prices stabilize, and maybe even go lower if people discover ways to innovate. Everyone is better off.
It’s an exercise of thought, not reality. But it lets you see how consumer spending is not good for the economy.
loading....
@ Panda – exactly. Also, note that the amount we consume in groceries and housing has a limit and will likely not increase those needs nearly as dramatically as the layoffs so many people will remain unemployed and now unable to purchase the exceeding cost of housing or groceeries. So NO, it won’t help our economy.
loading....
@JC You’re thinking of consumption in terms of money instead of in terms of production. The amount we consume of housing and groceries is irrelevant: it’s how much production we put forth for those needs. If the price of groceries/housing keeps going up so much that the Apple people can’t afford it, then guess what! Grocery stores are hiring! Apple people get hired.
loading....
I’m trying to reply to Matt’s post 51 here.
Logically, your argument makes no sense.
You state people should only by what they need, but then immediately state the food and housing industries will grow as people spend more money there.
Why would people spend more on food and housing? If they’re getting by on what they have now, that’s all they need. They’d only buy more with their freed up “want” money if they WANT to buy better food/housing, which contradicts your entire premise.
loading....
This argument is ridiculous Matt, the overall economy is not a measure of “amount of money spent” but of “amount of wealth created”. If we stop creating cars and computers and all the other things we enjoy the amount of wealth created overall drops massively. The actual prices are completely irrelevant. If you pay a million dollars a day for a plate of rice and a tent, and get paid a million dollars a day to plow barrens fields by hand that does not imply that the economy is good just because you made a million dollars. It implies that you’re a very poor subsistence farmer and your country’s currency has been massively de-valued due to inflation.
You have to be building wealth to grow the economy, and there’s only so much growing to be done in the areas of food and housing. If you want to know what your *real* contribution tot he economy is, measure it in terms of “how is the world better now than it would have been without my work”. If you haven’t made anything except enough food to eat, then the economy is basically non-existent. If, on the other hand, you’ve been building gadgets that make everyone happier or their lives a little easier, then you’re growing the economy of wealth, because the world is a little better off.
loading....
Actually the whole premise is false, consumer spending cannot cease, as human desire cannot be suppressed, and supply will always rise to meet it.
If everyone was thrifty, people would buy the same things, or maybe different ones, but only at the level they can afford— instead of borrowing 10 pizzas from their future selves in order to enjoy a pizza today, they would wait until they have the cash to pay for a present pizza and be happy with it, and then buy 11 more with their investment income
Right now unfortunately almost everyone is hooked by the gills on a treadmill of perpetual misery that can only be consoled with spastic spending to cover up the desperation caused by an approaching horizon in which you’re completely broke.
I did that already, I don’t plan to do it again, and it is my wish to fully contribute to the general wealth and welfare of society– with my work, not with my debts.
—
ps if demand followed the model of PF blogs, then demand would actually be shifted to things that PF bloggers want– trips to the deep Congo to commune with gorillas, tiny houses, canning supplies, locally raised beef, and electronics that would let you work from anywhere in the planet. (and yes that’s what apple, google, samsung, etc., are doing already– making “lifestyle design” more possible than ever–so i wouldn’t so quickly predict their demise).
loading....
I’ll end by saying this: consumer spending DOES NOT drive the economy. PRODUCTION drives the economy. If you don’t produce anything, what are you supposed to spend on? To think that consumer spending drives the economy is to think that the caboose drives the train rather than the engine. The engine is production. Consumer spending is merely a reflection of a healthy economy. You all need to read “The Road to Serfdom” by Hayek and “Economics in One Lesson” by Hazlitt. I can’t articulate it as well as them (obviously, look at the attacks!).
loading....
The paradox of thrift will only hold in a closed economic system.
So while America can export goods and services internationally, an increase in domestic savings as a result of reduced consumption and / or the paydown of debt can be offset by the proceeds of exports.
loading....
it makes sense because we have, basically, unlimited needs. If people don’t spend that money on consumables, they put it in the bank – and the banks lend it out for capital improvements.
When the economy was booming, my (long-term economically depressed hometown) first had an explosion of consumer spending – more chain restaurants, nicer cars, nicer clothes – and when those demands were satisfied people started fixing up their houses, insulating, painting, landscaping.
Boom for long enough and we might have gotten more civic institutions, like the churches, gyms, schools, clubs, and community/service centers that were built in the 1950s (and before that in the 1890s – the YWCA there was built in a burst of prosperity at the end of the 19th century).
loading....
@ Magniopi People would pay more for housing and groceries because the market would dictate so: grocery stores and housing businesses would be able to charge more because people would have more discretionary income to spend there (since they’re no longer shopping at Apple).
Makes perfect sense. You just need to think logically and think all the way through.
loading....
Also a ridiculous argument. The market operates on supply and demand. If we decrease spending for discretionary items, and put those people out of work, then they will employ themselves in the only remaining careers; housing, farming, and other necessities. This increases the supply of necessities, and another commenter has pointed out that there is no increase in demand (everyone is getting by with what they have), so the net impact is to *decrease* the price of necessities.
loading....
@Matt,
You are sounding increasingly ridiculous. “The Market” operates on supply and demand of goods.
If we put producers of luxuries out of business and spend money only on necessities, the newly unemployed will begin working in the necessities industries, and thereby increase the SUPPLY.
DEMAND for necessities remains constant (as another reader hash pointed out; people already buy what they need).
So the net impact is a DECREASE in prices.
If you don’t buy into supply and demand, check out eBay; when two identical items are on sale at the same time, the auction selling price will almost always be noticeably lower than when there is only one of the item. You can set your Buy-it-Now price higher because you know people have more money, but auctions will sell for less, and you won’t sell at all.
Sorry if this and similar comments posted twice.
loading....
True. it’s all about supply and demand. My argument, however, is that people would have more capital to spend on housing and food. Therefore, the effective demand would rise: more capital would be spent on those. In other words, the amount of production that someone would need in order to buy those things would increase. That would be fine because people would have more capital now that they are not spending on iPhones.
From economist Peter Schiff, who predicted the housing bubble: “Contrary to conventional wisdom, spending is not what grows the economy. People who believe that are basically putting the cart before the horse. What actually grows an economy is the opposite of spending; it’s under consumption, it’s savings, it’s the money we don’t spend that makes the economy grow. When we don’t spend it and it’s saved that money is available to finance capital investments, business expansion, job creation; all the things that grow the economy flow from savings.”
loading....
I think, to a certain extent, that personal resonsibility *should* be negated.
To an extent. Obviously people should be careful. But I don’t understand why people ignore the realities of our consumerism-pushing society.
Corporations spend endless billions of dollars on figuring out how to convince us to spend our money. The psychology of marketing is an enormous industry. Companies literally look for ways to erode our sense of personal resonsibility. They develop not just ads everywhere, but also TV shows, movies, shopping centers, even communities that all serve to poke at our insecurities and weaknesses so that we spend, spend, spend.
And in the face of this powerhouse of manipulation, we are told that our financial problems are completely our own fault. Sorry, but I don’t buy it.
loading....
Does JD even post here anymore? Just an endless stream of posts by some random writers. Would be nice if could get an alert set up so I could visit this site only when JD posts something.
loading....
Just add a filter in your RSS feed in order to reject posts that begin with “Reader Story:”
loading....
JD is not some sort of Holy Fountain of Wisdom, I would want to hear just from him all day unless he was my best friend or something.
I like the multiple approaches, not everything works for everyone but in a good day something works for somebody, and that’s what keeps coming readers back.
If I had to listen to JD all day I probably would be already following other blogs instead of sticking to this one.
Of course people follow blogs for different reasons, but my original point was that this is the way this blog has been for some time, and it’s not going to change any time soon– so you might as well learn to enjoy it if you’re going to be around.
loading....
ps apologies for my atrocious syntax but i was in a hurry at the time
loading....
Side question: should the byline here say JD?
I (own fault) skipped the italics at top and was very confused when ‘husband’ was mentioned below in the article
loading....
Not really your fault. There are just 2 people who actually post on the blog: JD or April. Everybody else, including staff writers like Donna or Robert Brokamp, get their articles posted by them. And It’s a technical limitation of the blog software that the poster gets the byline. That’s because blogs were originally online journals, not full-blown publishing platforms. Though maybe there’s a way the “technical elves” could intercede and fix this problem.
Like installing this plugin:
http://seoserpent.com/wordpress/custom-author-byline
Lots of folks using WordPress sites with multiple authors may run into this problem. You want to attribute correct credit to the writer/author of the article, but not give out access to your WordPress install. Maybe because it’s a one-time article, maybe not, who cares?
If the author of your blog entry (or page or custom post type) is different than your logged in user and you don’t want to have to create a separate user account, just add the name as you’d like it to appear to the Custom Author Byline panel below the post editor. Easy!
–
C’mon QuinStreet! Level up!
loading....
I must confess that I too am the nosy family member / friend. I am not perfect in my finances, but I try a lot harder than most people do. One of my boyfriend’s friends bought a car without a cosigner. Since we were all 20 at the time, he didn’t have established credit. His can loan interest rate was 23%. When I heard that, I freaked out. That is almost as bad as having a credit card! When I bought my car, I had my dad cosign for me. My interest rate is 2.9%. (It was supposed to be 3.9% but they had a promotion going that I won an extra percent off my interest rate — Score!) My car wasn’t very expensive (about 5 grand) so my payments are very manageable at $107 over three years. I usually pay 110 to even it out. I hope to pay off my car with my taxes next year. But we will see. I may not be one of that friend’s favorite people, but sometimes the embarrassment of having to ask for a cosigner is worth saving that extra money. By the time I finish off my car loan, I will only have paid 200 dollars in interest. Also, I want to make a note that my friend, in his brilliant thinking, used his job as his credit (didn’t seem to help him much on the interest rate, did it?) and when he lost his job, they repossessed his car, even if he could still make the payments. I don’t trust those places.
loading....
Co-signing is very risky for the co-signer. It’s not a simple matter of a creditworthy person vouching for the borrower’s good intentions — if the borrower defaults for any reason, the co-signer is on the hook for the debt. Your friend may not have had anyone willing to take that chance (and anyone who was approached but elected not to co-sign for him might have been making a wise decision). OTOH, I’m glad it worked out for you and your father, and for a parent who’s in good financial shape to co-sign a car loan for an inexpensive car for a financially responsible child seems quite reasonable.
loading....
I know that can happen. But in this particular situation, he didn’t ask his parents to cosign because of his pride. That was the only reason. My dad cosigned for me because even before I got the job I have now, I always worked enough to make my car payment at least. My dad doesn’t have perfect credit, by any means, but he had good enough to help me.
loading....
My mom made me an authorized user on her credit card when I was 18. She had excellent credit and wanted to establish credit for me. I was given the card for emergency use only and fortunately never needed it. I guess having my mothers already established credit on my credit report made it look like I had a long and good credit history and so I didn’t need a cosigner when I went to get credit of my own. I was grateful for this, because I wouldn’t want my parents to be responsible for my debt if for some reason I could no longer make the payments. I’ve seen other family members end up with strained relationships from the worse case scenario actually happening. The person they cosigned for lost their job and couldn’t make payments. The situation ended up creating resentment on both sides.
loading....
This is an approach I’ve heard Suze Orman recommend. Unfortunately, when I called the credit union which issues our credit card to see if we could do it for our daughter, they said that an authorized user would never acquire our credit history or FICO score. In fact, they said they don’t even ask for the authorized user’s social security number so they’d never report it. Maybe banks and credit unions have different policies, I just know that it didn’t work for us.
loading....
Honestly, that interest rate may be illegal for an automobile purchase. My ex was in the military, and one of his friends financed a car at a similarly astronomical rate. When the friend told people what he was paying, someone did a little research and found out that the rate he was being charged was above the interest rate maximum set by the state. He was able to refinance the car because the dealer had signed a contract that violated state law. That said, I am not sure how you go about looking into these things, but there are some laws that may (or may not) have protected your friend.
loading....
If you’re expecting to get enough back on your taxes next year to pay off the car, why not adjust your withholding now and pay more on the car each month…?
loading....
That is a good idea that I might be looking into. I didn’t even think of it that way. Thank you for the input!
loading....
I enjoyed this post
The influence of family is so important — they’re the first money managers we encounter in our lives (whether we follow their ways or not.) All the better if we can understand that when we hear things we don’t want to hear, chances are they’re things we need to hear!
loading....
I like that this post raises the issue of talking about money. It’s not just young people who need the wisdom of their elders – I’ve had personal experience of what can happen when parents don’t discuss their finances with their adult children and then die and leave a mess behind. The one good thing that came out of that situation was a determination to educate my children about money – and not leave them the same type of mess.
I don’t know what the answer is, but I certainly believe that a big component is to get beyond the idea that money is a taboo subject – especially within families. I’d love to know how others have tried to break this barrier (and whether they succeeded or failed).
loading....
I think sometimes the reason that children aren’t necessarily taught about credit is because their parents don’t use it. I was taught about money starting at an early age. I was budgeting my $2 allowance at 6 and had a bank account. My siblings taught me the envelope system and I was good with money. I too had some issues with credit though and when I think back, I wonder if it’s because no one ever talked about credit cards etc. I can only assume this is because my parents didn’t have credit card debt. Perhaps it was just inherent that I would know that credit card debt was not OK or that if I used all the budgeting skills they taught me, I would not have credit card debt.
loading....
Family stepping in was not a factor in my journey to becoming financially smart. My family actually didn’t care much what I did with my money. My dad would have cared, but he passed away about 11 years ago, when I was in high school, leaving a bunch of financial pushovers in my family. The adviser within myself was telling me to stop borrowing money, get out of debt and start saving. It was probably my dad within me telling me this, or at least the lessons he taught me. Maybe it was just a natural instinct. Either way, I decided to stop being a financial idiot about 4 years ago after making a huge financial mistake, buying a $20,000 car with zero down. I’m doing much better today and have now become the one who gets into my family’s business about their finances!
loading....
I’m glad my family was frugal. I was always cautious with money and when I started to experiment (for example, in college I put a $300 bike on a credit card – I had a job and knew I could pay it off in 2-3 months) I was always held back by knowing what my parents would think of it.
loading....
LOVED this post! As a suggestion for talking to family members or friends…I find that opening up to the people I trust about my financial missteps and my plans to recover helps to make those people around me also open up about their financial stresses. I like this approach better than spewing out financial advice to someone who might have made a financial mistake because the person is likely to get defensive. Just a thought.
loading....
Great post! I can understand how annoying it was at the time (I remember clearly being about 16 and getting a lecture about spending all my money from my part time job), but was meant with love, and obviously stuck. Your later comments prove that you learned a great lesson. In the long run, it’s better to be lectured about something and learn, then never learn at all!
loading....
I think the lesson to take away from this story is that the author listened and took action.
I talk to a lot of friends and co-workers about personal finance matters and they’re always talking about getting going with their retirement plans and paying down debt. Many conversations, and years later, they’re still in the same situation if not worse.
I still try to give good advice when asked or when the topic is brought up, but I hardly push as much as I used to. I felt like I was nagging. I know life happens, but people stand to lose so much when they don’t keep finances a top priority in their life.
loading....
it seems like every year my employer changes the retirement plan and sends out a notice to everyone – it’s been a great opportunity to say to coworkers who have no retirement savings, YES you should start a 401k and YES I do this myself and it has totally been worth it.
loading....
Good post
Me and my family are big proponents of talking finance. We go over financial strategies and our current state when we are together.
A lot has been learned over the years from discussions
loading....
This is very much the sort of relationship my father and I have regarding money. It started in high school when he really worked with me through thinking about college finance and has continued to this day.
I still bounce ideas off him when I’m thinking about changing my asset allocation, changing how I tactically manage my money, etc. And he bounces ideas back. I really value that dialog.
(My brother’s the person I wish I was able to talke more with. He’s also the person that I’d be most likely to stage a personal finance intervention for… but ultimately he doesn’t want it yet. When he does, he’ll make the changes.)
loading....
It always amazes me how two siblings in the same family can turn out so differently. Apparently I learned the financial lessons and my sister didn’t. Last June, she asked to borrow some money. She said she was struggling and gave me the amount of one major bill. When I asked if she needed more than that amount, she hung up on me. We haven’t spoken since even though I did call and leave a message.
A talk? Intervention? The recipient has to be receptive.
loading....
I think it says a lot about the author (in a very good way) that she was able to actively listen to constructive criticism and accept the offered help.
Because when family tries to tell you how you should or shouldn’t be managing your money that can be really loaded.
loading....
great story.
I pulled the Best Buy 12 month no-interest deal for a new computer in 2007… I paid most of the balance, and then what was left I transferred to a line of credit at 8% about 3 days before my 12 months ran out.
It was still a mistake (I was bad with money then) but it could have been a lot worse.
loading....
Thanks, GenQwerty, for an excellent story. This to me underscores deeply that our schools need to teach financial education. Some families understand personal financial management and teach it to their kids. Others, like my own, think debt is what everyone does; it has taken me years to improve just to the level of Dave Ramsey’s Baby Step #2.
I don’t want to start a political thread, but I will simply say that in the ongoing battle between the views of “provide lots of (government) safety nets” and “don’t give ‘em a dime, make them pull themselves up by their bootstraps,” there’s the third view of “provide financial education in spades to counter-balance all the Madison Avenue buy-buy-buy messages (which is all the education most Americans get), so people LEARN how to pull themselves up.”
loading....
How would you assess a teacher’s ability to teach PF? How are teachers vetted now, before they teach factual subjects like science or math? (Let’s leave religious beliefs about science aside, ok?)
What should each grade level know about finance? How much would each child’s home finances affect their ability to learn PF subjects?
I guess my point is that it would be just as difficult to teach PF in schools as it would to teach factual subjects like math or science. Perhaps it would be even more difficult because not only are there facts to learn – but PF has a strong emotional component too.
So, while each student’s ability would affect their absorption of science, math, and PF… only PF would be affected by the student’s emotions too? Not a simple subject, so to speak.
loading....
PF is like any other subject. I am certified to teach business, and so I teach PF.
Like all other subjects I have standards I have to teach to. There are national organizations for my subject matter with suggested subjects, objectives and resources.
Day-to-day I cover goal setting, budgeting, banking, insurance, retirement, getting and keeping a job. We use an investment simulator to play the market. I use a lot of articles from this site, and others like it, to start conversations.
loading....
Ooh, wish I’d seen your post before I commented/ranted above. I agree wholeheartedly.
To Paul below – as Karla says, there are plenty of PF curricula already developed. It’s more an issue of getting them into schools.
And I completely that, for PF, the emotional side of it is equally as important as the math side. That’s why Laura’s point about focusing on media literacy is so important. Teach kids to recognize how they’re being manipulated, and you can help head off that emotional manipulation at the pass. (obviously, this is just part of the emotions involved, but it’s an important one!)
My parents were never great with their money. The last PF lesson I ever took from them was, “it doesn’t matter how much you take out in student loans!”
But I will always be grateful for their vocal criticim of commercials and ads. They taught me, by example, to be cynical of anyone who was selling something, and it’s helped me become the frugal person I am today. ^__^
loading....
Good story and I’m glad it worked out for you. Where I grew up, we just didn’t talk about money, it was considered a rude topic. So I gradually learned on my own – my mother was kind enough to put me as an AU on her credit cards (and thankfully had good credit) so when I applied for my first card, I was approved with a good limit and rate. But I didn’t really know how to USE it. I paid it off every month (really, after almost every purchase, I wasn’t sure when the due date really was) and about a year after getting it, I had “missed” the payment date and I thought I’d screwed myself – a balance, late fees, etc floated through my head. It took a call to my mother and studying the statement to realize that, since I paid it off all the time, I didn’t “owe” anything for that statement – I had 25 days before I had to pay the card!
So now I do try and talk more about finances, but it’s still a “rude” topic and it’s hard to bring up and not sound like bragging or whatnot since we are doing better now.
I also want to say it’s great that your parents paid off your college for you – I’m nearing 30 with retirement, savings, and debt of only a mortgage and student loans and I’m making sure my husband keeps up his end. My brother, on the otherhand, isn’t in as good a position since it’s just not polite conversation.
What thoughts do people have about making money less of a taboo topic in face-to-face conversations?
loading....
You know, my parents never taught me about credit, either. And oddly, it worked out for me, too!
I never understood the concept that you could buy something *before* you had the money for it. I didn’t get a credit card at all until a couple of years out of college, and I always paid it off as soon as I made a purchase.
(since then I’ve changed to a monthly payment cycle to build my credit. As I understand it, by having a $0 balance at the end of every month, your credit utilization rate is 0%, rather than the ideal 1-5%.)
loading....
As Americans we sit around watching tv too much. All those ads affect us Overspending and having bad credit are symptoms if bigger problems. My biggest financial setback is overeating at restauants. the other day I watched a Netflix& saw characters eating cupcakes. I wanted cupcakes…
Thanks for the post. I talk but have a hard time getting through to people. Need to try advice if above poster & share my failings to drop their defenses.
loading....
I think that the bigger take-away from this is financial education as to how things really work. If you believe that all debt is bad, then just paying for your kids education to keep them debt free isn’t going to have them same impact if you explain to them WHY debt is bad. Sounds like the author’s family is extremely debt averse, but he also says that they never bothered to explain things like APR, zero interest debt, and how credit actually works.
I’m fortunate in that my parents gave me a lot of financial education before I left the nest, and it wasn’t just “don’t use credit cards” or “save for retirement” – it included understanding how credit cards work, how different retirement vehicles work, different kinds of budgeting methods, how the stock market works – and many in depth conversations as to the pros and cons of each.
loading....
It’s amazing to me that at this point in US history, we still don’t teach personal finance in schools, and most don’t teach it at home.
loading....
At this point in US history, nothing much gets done about anything, does it? But I digress….
loading....
Personal finance classes don’t always guarantee that people will make the right money decisions once they get to the real world.
Even if a child is raised in a household where frugality and good financial habits are seen, it doesn’t guarantee they will continue on that path in adulthood.
loading....
I have the good fortune of having an annoying older brother who studied economics in college, and is by far, the cheapest, most frugal person I know. Every time I bought something I didn’t need, he’d say “non-essential item.” It was so annoying!…
And now I’m just like him. I’ve become obsessed with all things money. I’ve read ~20 books on economics, finance, investing, etc. within the past 2 years. When I see concert tickets, I don’t see $100. I see the $1000 that it could be in 10 years if invested wisely. When I see $15 for the data plan on my cell phone bill, I see a $150 Christmas dinner for my girlfriend and me in December (canceling data this weekend). When people talk about their finances and say ridiculous things, it’s really hard for me to keep my mouth shut. I want to help them, but more often I annoy them.
I love reading about Warren Buffett’s frugality. He’s worth billions and lives modestly. He really is a true testament to the fact that we don’t need much at all. To be honest, if I won $100 million tomorrow, I wouldn’t change much. Every penny I spend could go to something like cancer research or healthy living. Whenever I buy something, I always ask myself: do I really need this?, and is this what I want to support? I’m my favorite charity, but I’d rather support the Jimmy Fund than Bruce Springsteen.
A great book to start with is “How an Economy Grows and Why It Crashes” by Peter Schiff. It explains economics (debt, interest, etc.) with a children’s story. It was great for someone like me who never took an economics course (still haven’t).
loading....
That’s SO ironic — the co-author of that book, Andrew Schiff, was just featured in a Bloomberg article about the 1% of income earners in the US who are really “suffering” b/c of the economic downturn. It made me want to vomit what their version of “suffering” was:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-29/wall-street-bonus-withdrawal-means-trading-aspen-for-cheap-chex.html
loading....
Was that a serious article? I hope it wasn’t! A commenter asked if it was from the Onion. Very strange!. If true, I hope Peter thinks differently than Andrew. Thanks for the article!
loading....
Some might look at your $150 Chrstmas dinner and see a future profit if, instead, you invested the money and spent the holiday dumpster-diving for spoiled vegetables.
Please don’t let an obsession with tomorrow’s money ruin the life you are living today. Being frugal is fine; being a miser is not.
loading....
How true! That’s why I used that example. It’s important that being frugal doesn’t mean being miserable. Same with diet: if it makes you miserable, you won’t stick with it. You have to cheat every once in a while to keep enjoying the saving part.
loading....
I heard someone at work ask if you would go to the bank and apply for a loan to eat out. That was a great perspective on using a credit card!
loading....
Great article! My family is the exact same way and I love them for it. Can get on your nerves sometimes though but you just have to keep in mind that it is all for the greater good!
loading....
GQ;
This is a great post. How teachable you are. Once a person stops learning, that’s when they stop growing.
Even though your family’s “interference” was probably annoying to you, and definitely humbling; you took away a valuable lesson from it. Good for you!
loading....
Does anyone have good tips on how to begin a conversation with a close friend who is out of control with spending money?
I’m 40, and still friends with one of my best girlfriends from high school. The last 5 years or so, we had fallen out of touch, since I live on the west coast and she lives in the midwest. When we reconnected, I heard a lot about her money woes — her house was in foreclosure, she and her husband are applying for bankruptcy protection, and their house (which they haven’t made a payment on in nearly two years) is falling apart around them. When she said how much she wishes we could visit in person, I offered to treat her to a plane ticket to visit, and she took me up on it.
We had a wonderful time catching up for a long weekend, and I loved her company, except for one thing: she was spending money the whole time she was here. Not on necessities; I cooked, drove her everywhere, etc. I’m on a tight budget myself after a couple of years of unemployment. But when we were visiting free museums, she insisted on buying her kids lots of cheaply made souveniers. I tried to dissuade her from spending $29.99 each on two cheap sweatshirts with the name of my town on them, to no avail. When she complained about her money woes, I sympathized and shared my experience of learning to finally learning to budget in the past two years, and how YNAB software successfully helped me crawl out of lots of debt. She protested that she couldn’t even begin to budget because her husband’s salary was too low for even basic expenses, so it would be “too depressing” to budget. I didn’t push it.
When she returned, I saw on Facebook that she had bought the new iPhone, and I was flabbergasted. I haven’t said anything, but I see how stressed and miserable she is about money at the same time as she’s making really preventable mistakes, and I feel like I’m watching a train wreck, and I feel like I’m being a lousy friend if I sympathize without speaking the truth about her spending habits. On the other hand, I don’t think I can avoid sounding judgmental because I guess I AM being judgmental!
Should I just politely smile and nod when she complains about money woes, or risk our friendship by trying a little dose of financial castor oil?
loading....
You should say nothing. No matter how appalled you are at her decisions, it really isn’t any of your business, and you are correct in thinking that you will sound judgmental.
There may be (non-financial) aspects of YOUR life that she is upset by or worried about: would you welcome her interference?
About the only thing you can really do is stop enabling her–no more free airplane tickets might be a start.
loading....
I would say nothing – she clearly is in denial about her life circumstances and is not ready to make a change. Your efforts will be wasted and will only sour the friendship. I’d just nod and smile sympathetically when she complains about her finances and do nothing unless she actually asks for your help.
loading....
maybe neither?
One thing I have seen really help people is to go to a nonprofit debt counselor. And you can approach it as being about her feelings – she sounds overwhelmed and unhappy, maybe a debt counselor could help?
I had a coworker who had terrible debts and just kind of threw up her hands and kept spending because she knew bankruptcy was in her future. I watched her make her first appointment with a debt counselor. Just the first call to make an appointment with a debt counselor (I think at Lutheran Social Services?) made her feel a ton better, because it was actually doing something about the situation instead of just feeling bad about it.
And then she’ll have someone to talk to about her debt problems who isn’t you, too.
loading....
I had a friend like this, too. She was deep in debt with education loans (undergrad and grad), and realized she’d graduate school with something like $100K in debt. So she didn’t think anything of using her credit card for little purchases here and there. To her, having $5,000 or even $10,000 in credit card debt wasn’t a big deal after having $100,000 in student loans.
http://traderjoesreviewer.blogspot.com
loading....
One approach I have been successful with in regards to making a change to someone’s lifestyle choices takes about 6 months to 2 years to show results, but it maintains friendships in the meantime:
Do not criticize your friend, simply sympathize and ignore any bad choices. Unrelated, point out friends you know or characters on tv making similar bad choices and comment on them, in the course of normal conversation. People have a very hard time seeing that their own life can be better (or different from how it is in any way) but it’s very easy to tell someone else how they could improve. After months (or years) of having their attention drawn to this particular topic, they’ll start to internalize and at some point, they’ll realize their own life can change and either make those changes themselves or ask you (or someone else) for advice. Only after they specifically ask for advice (if they ever do), will they be receptive (and not resentful) to anything you have to say.
loading....
My new “older brother” has been Thomas Sowell. I’ve been reading his “Basic Economics” for some weeks and it has been eye-opening.
I’ve even considered purchasing a lectern so that I can keep it open on random pages all day. But cash for purchases is a scarce resource that can be allocated to alternative uses.
Thanks wherever you are, Mr. Sowell!
—
(if this has been confusing, please know that my takeaway from the article wasn’t “it’s good to have a nosy family,” but “it’s good to know someone who understands economics, or better yet, it’s good to understand a little bit of it yourself”.)
(i think i’d still like a lectern, for office purposes. hmmmmm…. )
loading....
Great post! I am convinced that making mistakes early in life AND learning from them is the best way of getting a good start. My mistake was buying a big car and loosing al my money on it. That did hurt! Never again in my life will I buy an expensive car without being able to pay for it. Or any other expensive purchase for that matter.
loading....
You have a lovely family who were kind and not confrontational with their advice. You are lucky.
loading....
I often bring money up in conversation – not in a rude way, but I mention saving up for something, or that I don’t want to eat out too much because I spent a lot on paying for plane tickets for summer travel. My friends know I love to talk about retirement savings!
loading....
Isn’t this the way we learn. We hopefully make small mistakes and learn from them
loading....
@ Panda – exactly. So Matt, your position is pay more and get less? Great! Please note that under your theory the increased amount we spend on groceries and housing will be for the actual item not for job creation. People can only eat so much and need only so much home (assuming under your theory they aren’t living exuberantly). Therefore, the economy will suffer because we will not be able to recuperate for the amount of layoffs that would result if we got rid of all unnecessary expenses. So many people will end up unemployed and now unable to purchase the exceeding cost of housing or groceries. So NO, it won’t help our economy.
loading....
I recently gave my sister some financial advice. They were only 2 years into a 30 year mortgage at 6% and I advised that she would be able to get a better interest rate if they refinanced today- possibly at less than 4%….or that they could even go to a 3.25% on a 15 year loan. Anyways, they just refinanced for another 30 years at 4%…which is great. The only problem is that they freed up another $300 per month in their house payment and decided they needed a 2 person harley, new kitchen floors, and new carpet. All of the money they are saving in interest just went out the window with those purchases…plus some. Also, they are starting another 3o year mortgage over in their mid-thirties which is probably not a great idea.
From now on, I am going to keep my advice to myself. I probably set them back financially instead of helping them. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.
loading....
OMG! That reminds me of when I refinanced our mortgage and because I was working that day, I sent my financially illiterate husband to the bank to drop off the papers. The lady at the bank told hubby that he was “going to save $680 this year with the re-fi”, so he exited the bank and went right next door into an electronics store and bought himself a $680 stereo system PLUS TAX! On a credit card no less WHEN he was unemployed!! That was 20 years ago and he still doesn’t get it. After that, I insisted that I handle all household money and purchases over $100 – when it comes to couples, at least ONE person needs to know how to budget, balance a checkbook, etc. Call me bossy, but he agrees he’s clueless and let’s me do this. We are debt-free with $ in the bank. So much less stressful!!!
Good post – I learned many of my frugal habits from my parents; and their parents were the same way. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree…
loading....
Some people just dont get it. Freeing up extra money in your budget is for saving- not for spending. I control all our finances too…..my husband is actually really good with money. But I am a control freak!
loading....
My parents didn’t discuss money, credit, or debt with their children. Maybe it was pride or embarassment, or maybe they just believed those weren’t appropriate conversations between generations. Whatever the reason, we had to figure it all out on our own. As you might imagine, the cautious ones are doing reasonably well. The impulsive ones… not so much. It’s good to see that other families are different.
loading....
This only works when your relatives have the right answers. I’ve seen relatives give very bad advice.
Also, this only works if your nosy family is pushing you in the RIGHT direction. How many of us have family pushing us in the opposite direction?
Buy a house.
Buy a car.
Buy a bigger house or a bigger car.
Take the kids to disneyworld.
Take a honeymoon.
Let’s get together and buy a lavish gift for X that none of us can afford because if have collective credit card debt it’s not as bad
You need to refinish the basement so the children have a playroom.
Now that you painted, you’re going to get new couches, right?
You don’t have X? You simply must have X. I don’t see how you can live without it?
Etc… Etc… If I had a dime for every time one of my relatives told me to just get cable and stop suffering I’d be able to get cable. It’s not as if all my family do this all the time. But my family has also never said “it’s great you have enough money to put extra on your mortgage at the end of this year”.
This not a clutch of ridiculous spendthrifts who can’t handle money. It’s just that people tend to think their choices are the best ones. If they felt the need to buy a house before the baby, they think you need a house when you have a baby. Nevermind that it may not make sense for you or that you may be fine with what you have. Nevermind that lots of people raise children in apartments or rentals. My sister regretted not taking a honeymoon and bugged me through my whole engagement to plan one. A cousin got a minivan when she had her first child and insisted we’d need one when the baby was born. I never could figure out why someone would need a minivan for one baby. The carseat and stroller fit in our honda civic just fine. But I can’t say I didn’t start looking at honeymoons or start thinking about minivans. I can probably think situations where I did buy what was suggested. I’m not invulnerable.
loading....
I think it’s great that your family helped you avoid making a major credit mistake, and that they have been so helpful. However, as a parent, I think once a child has reached their 20′s and is making good decisions for themselves…well, it’s time to butt out. I would not be overinvolved in the decisions my adult children make. I may give my opinion if they’re open to it, but I would respect their intelligence and independence, especially if they’re married.
loading....
I like this post and love to see when well intentioned family tries to help. Like many commenters above, my family never talked about finances in a helpful or meaningful way. I try to be different with my own family and attempt to talk and teach about finances with my children as openly as possible.
Being on the receiving end of financial advice (from family or anyone) is tricky – you have to first be OPEN to it by putting away your pride or arrogance; and you must feel the people offering you the advice are credible and have your best interests at heart. If not, then smile politely and move on.
loading....
It’s great that you’re teaching your children about personal finance, JB! Hopefully that understanding will help them avoid pitfalls. It also can help you avoid a situation where they’re spending irresponsibly and then you’re stuck with the dilemma about how to help them. To quote Ben Franklin, “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”
loading....
This is great. Most families (like my own) don’t talk about money. There is this sense that talking about money is a bad and private thing. It took me years to realize that talking about money, like talking about anything, is how you get get good at it! Go nosy family!
loading....
My most permanent financial lesson was quite the opposite from what is described in this article. My mom is frugal to the point of crazy, and had been very much controlling of how I dealt with money from the moment I started earning it (babysitting) at age 11. I had to put 2/3 of it away for college, all the way through high school. This taught me nothing about money-management (who can put 60% of their earnings into savings? what about rent, utilities, etc?). The most liberating thing I did in my early twenties was to tell her that the topic of money was no longer one she was allowed to bring up with me. And I made terrific credit-card mistakes in my twenties. Way better than a lecture was hitting my very own terrifying financial bottom of not having enough for rent two months in a row and vowing not to ever go there again. There is no amount of lecturing that would have given me this visceral lesson, and I am glad for it today, almost 20 years later.
loading....
It’s great to have been able to learn such an invaluable lesson from your family. You can only imagine where you’d be in life if you hadn’t. We don’t talk finances with our families for a different reason. We’re doing well financially, but live a frugal lifestyle. I’m terrified of being JUDGED if they find out we have money in the bank… but buy our clothing from Value Village.
I’d rather they think we’re living paycheque to paycheque like so many other people our age.
loading....
With family, sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. In this case, their intrusiveness and lectures might have been annoying, but they were very helpful in the long run. That’s great that their tough love led to lessons being absorbed in the future. Good stuff!
loading....
I think getting other opinions from knowledgeable people, whether they are your nosy family or not, is a great idea in terms of making any decision. It’s also nice your family was willing to help via a loan. I think we all want to be able to help people when we can. That said, I think that sometimes it’s important to consider the source and realizing when you are getting bad advice. (You weren’t clearly but others may be.) Great post and title, made me smile thinking of my family!
loading....
I think that you can learn a lot from families that have not been successful by just listening to what they say or talk about. You can quickly learn what not to do.
loading....
It’s not really fair to have family who are nosy about your finances when they expect you to learn good/smart habits by osmosis. My parents had horrible financial habits, but everything was open and above board. I knew at 10 years old when my parents didn’t set enough aside to pay the taxes and had to go begging to relatives for money. We kids knew every time Dad’s boss wrote him a hot check or we couldn’t pay the utility bills because they blew that money on something we didn’t really need. Taught me more than them being responsible and closed-mouthed ever could.
Daisy
loading....
This story reminds me of my brother-in-law and his oldest son. My nephew had got a credit card as a freshman in college. He told his dad about it. His dad ran him through the math, even though the teaser rate was at 0%. My nephew learned his lesson well. He got a PhD with no debt. He married, he and his wife paid for the wedding, with no debt. They bought a house, a fixer upper, and even in these times between a 20% down and sweat equity they very much right side up.
Contrast that with my Dad. He thought as long as he had “room” on his credit card he had money. An optimist and a gambler his financial life was always a hot mess. It took me years to unlearn what I had learned about money from my dad, but I did, and now I’m OK. My sister is very OK because she married a terrific guy and a great money manager.
In our family the noseyness ran in all directions.
loading....
Thank you everyone for your feedback and comments! So encouraging to see all the discussion.
loading....