Continuing Education May Make You Wiser — But Richer?
Published on - March 22nd, 2012 (by Sarah Gilbert) This post is by staff writer Sarah Gilbert.
I live in a world in which I am blessed with lots of friends who are writers, but even I — social media maven that I am — would put my writing community at far less than a thousand. Yet a few weeks ago, there I was in Chicago with (according to one estimate) 11,000 writers, editors, publishers, and writing teachers. It was the Association for Writers and Writing Programs annual conference, and a Very Big Deal, if you have a master of fine arts degree, or are pursuing one, or want to. Most of my non-lettered writer friends looked at me, mystified, when I described the event.
MFA or not, it was fantastic; I scribbled so hard in my notebook during sessions on “tackling the ambitious novel” and “the lyric essay: collapse of the form or a form of collapse?” that I thought I might hurt myself. I met a few of my writing idols. I made a whole bunch of new friends (some of whom, conveniently, are editors for journals in which I might someday seek to publish my work). I felt the $700 or $800 I spent for the whole trip — yes, I stayed in a hostel — would work out to be well worth it down the road.
“So, don’t you have an MFA?”
And everywhere, I met people who asked, “so, do you have an MFA?” My answer, “no, I still haven’t paid for my MBA,” had most of them looking at me like I had just told them I was from the planet Zortec 500. I met two other writers, though, who had both MBAs and MFAs; an unusual combination. The first, a poet who had gone back for an MFA after 20 years working in management, and I discussed the financial implications at length.
What we came up with was unique to arts degrees, but given the popularity of the programs — and the sheer size and expense of this conference alone! — it’s quite obvious that many thousands of people are making the decision every year to invest an MBA-sized financial commitment into a fine arts degree. I believe it’s applicable to a wide variety of masters’ degrees, many of which are meant to qualify its students to practice better in a field, whether that’s writing or teaching English as a foreign language or playing an instrument, but most of all to teach others.
The master’s degree as admissions ticket
My babysitter is considering (and a family friend is already halfway through) borrowing large sums of money to get a master’s degree in teaching English as a foreign language. The babysitter is making a decent living now teaching mostly wealthy students at a for-profit school, and she’s good at it, and studies hard to do better for her students on her own. But, she’d like to teach at a non-profit, and those organizations require a master’s. My friend Katie, similarly, wants to work with mission organizations, where a master’s degree is more likely to get you a salaried job.
Both of them are perfectly capable of teaching English as a foreign language without a master’s degree. To teach in certain jobs, however, the master’s is your ticket of admission. The kicker: these jobs probably don’t pay better than the other jobs. The investment in the master’s degree is all about quality of life; working in the conditions they prefer.
This is multiplied times 10 for MFAs (in writing as well as other fine arts, like music or sculpture or painting). A master’s degree is a requirement for one of those teaching positions at a community college or technical school. It can also help get you in the door for a teaching position at those smaller, community-based writing centers, like The Attic here in Portland or The Gotham Writer’s Workshop in New York.
The master’s degree as Friendster
The number one reason I hear to get an MFA is to develop relationships with fantastic writers. Some people call it “mentoring,” others call it “networking,” but it boils down to this: you’re far more likely to go somewhere in the arts world if you know people who know people. The searingly gorgeous painting on your wall is not going to up and sell itself at a gallery in New York; some well-known painter or gallery owner needs to call it “searingly gorgeous” so other people will believe it. In writing, it’s very rare to get an agent without a referral from another client of the agent; it’s a lot easier to sell a book to a publisher if they know Anne Lamott or Susan Orlean will write a blurb for the back of the book.
I’m so, so fortunate to have developed friendships with writers through social media (I have, very literally, met many of my best writer friends through Twitter) and simple happenstance (the most famous writer I know is also friends with my favorite chocolatier, who I met buying her chocolates at the farmer’s market — see? Chocolate is an investment) and by the great good luck of having gone to high school or college with them. The thing is, though, my network isn’t really all that hard to create through being a part of small community programs that don’t cost $20,000 per year. Take those small, community-based writing centers, or the indie publishing resource centers, or even a local library book group.
The master’s degree as imperative
Those who go back to get a master’s degree after many years say the same thing that recent undergraduates do: “the MFA gives you space to write.” Or, “it forces you to make room for it.” Well, I get it! It’s sure hard not to finish a short story if you have 15 other highly critical, driven, probably grumpy (it’s the late nights and the criticism that does it) degree-seekers evaluating it the next morning. If you won’t get the degree you spent $50,000 for unless you finish your novella, well, you’re going to probably finish your novella. If you don’t have a day job, you’ll have a lot more time to focus on writing.
I could get all metaphysical now and describe how the artist’s imperative comes from within. How when you need to make space to write or paint or dance or play violin, you’ll stab, rip, steal time from your life to do so. But that’s not always pretty, and I can understand the desire to create an external mandate for your art. It’s better for you in the long run, though, if that external mandate won’t mean working a job you may not like for 20 or 30 years to pay for it.
The MFA creates more MFAs: Pyramids of degree-holders?
This sentiment is unpopular (and extreme), but I don’t think it’s any less true. The fact is that MFA programs are a lot about demand-creation. You give famous writers jobs as MFA professors (because, honestly, writing novels and memoir isn’t really much of a guarantee for financial security); students who think they will be carried along on the fame trail of famous writers will apply; they will become writers who have been taught by famous writers and other students will want to be part of that aura; and so on. What’s more, the students of the MFA programs will need jobs, and the MFA programs can pay them very small stipends because aren’t they making money on their books, too? (No!) And they don’t even have to offer benefits!
Well, like any other pyramid scheme, eventually one runs out of new investors/students, and the writers who did not become rich and famous authors don’t complain much because they’re convinced they weren’t that good to begin with, and they go off and get ordinary jobs or retire on a spouse’s benefits or something.
(I forgot to mention the other MBA I met at the conference. He was not an MFA; he was, instead, selling an MFA program. “No thanks,” I told him, as he pushed a flier about his school toward me, with a look that I hope said, “I know what you’re doing here. I took Marketing 621 too. And I got a really great grade!” Anyway, he backed off.)
The nitty-gritty: It’s an investment that rarely pays out
I’m still waiting to answer the question: should you get an MFA? I clearly shouldn’t; I can’t make any more money with an MFA than I could with my MBA, not by a long shot, and I already have most of the “stuff” you get with an MFA; a writing network, space to write, an imperative. I’m working up my “admissions ticket” the pre-MFA way; trying to get published and get lots of accolades (it’s a work in progress).
Please remember that, while some very lovely people make good money writing books, most don’t. I have far more stories of friends with $6,000 advances and no royalties yet as I do friends with six-figure advances and movie rights sales (but I do have a few of these, amazingly). I don’t count that into my equation, because you just can’t count on that.
It’s a pretty easy equation, though, and one you should be able to figure out on your own.
- Take the salary you can make at a job you can live with that doesn’t require a master’s degree. Let’s say that’s $40,000 a year.
- Take the salary you can make at a job you would want to use the master’s degree to get. A good pay rate is $4,000 per class, per semester, which is — oh crap — less than $40,000 a year. But you get summers off!
- At this point I would ask you to estimate the total cost of your education and use some online calculator to decide how long it would take you to “earn back” the difference. So, if your education cost you $100,000 and you would make $20,000 more a year, it would be a pretty quick earn-back. For writing, well, it would be hard to earn much less, even teaching public grade school.
The net-net, the bottom line, is that you’d be a fool to get an MFA or any of these master’s degrees that get you a good teaching job on purely financial considerations. You have to desire the education, and not just a little. It has to be such a passion that you’d be miserable without it. You need to have dreamed of conducting office hours when you were 10, and have practiced lectures on your little brothers and sisters throughout high school.
I know: you’re out there. Plenty of my friends made the gamble, because it fed something within them, and it’s either paying off or is still worth it despite it all. I probably would have, but got swayed toward the MBA by a bad ex-boyfriend who will one day be the centerpiece of a riveting memoir. Or novel.
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It sounds like your eyes are very wide open, which is good. And I wish you the best for your career!
What do you think about degree programs that don’t have a financial cost, but do have an opportunity cost? Obviously I ask based on a personal example: I graduated from college, the job market tanked, and I wound up cobbling together part time work to earn about $12,000/yr. I liked the jobs I had, but learned that to move into something more permanent in the field I would’ve had to either wait for higher level staff to move (and hope they promoted ME from within instead of choosing a co-worker or hiring someone whose resume was not marred from years of part-time work), or get a master’s degree. So I wound up in a PhD program, making $20,000 a year – a significant raise – in order to get the MA on the way with no debt. Got that last year, and now I’m working on the PhD because hey, still funded, why not; if I finish, it will take another 3 years.
Here’s the question, then. I have friends in an expensive professional program at the same school (MA only) who graduated last year and are working. They have debt and I don’t, but they will also be building up an extra few years of work experience and salary. Which is worth more, being debt free or having a start on your career?
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Which is better? Depends on your field. I literally cannot work in my field without a doctorate. Therefore, I earned my doctorate. Some fields, the eventual catch-up in pay between a masters and a doctorate makes the delay worth it, but in other fields, working with the masters pays well enough that the delay for a doctorate isn’t. BUT, sometimes the PhD opens more doors to more interesting work than a terminal masters can.
So, you need to know what the game is like within your own field.
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Has anyone heard about collegeplus? They are saying you can get a 4 year degree in two years in their program. Time to check it out.
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It’s a bachelor’s only, because it relies heavily on CLEP tests and other ways of getting credit that usually don’t apply to graduate degrees.
Most of College Plus’s students get the degree from Thomas Edison State College, which does have very low tuition rates (about half my local community & technical college). Their acceleration schedule is just students taking lots of CLEP tests and then sometimes doubling up on distance learning classes, something any motivated student can do through a university that offers distance learning if they can handle the workload.
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I hoped this article would focus on whether it’s worth it to get the M*B*A.
I have the MFA and paid very little for it. 1) I went to school in an inexpensive state in an inexpensive town; 2) I got in-state tuition; 3) Most of that tuition (and living expenses) were covered by my teaching assistantship and a PT job as a copywriter. I did get opportunities I would not have gotten without the help of MFA faculty. At the same time, I created my own opportunities as well.
I really want the MBA and all I can learn, but I don’t want the the $90K price tag.
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I just don’t understand one thing :
“Why the hell does everyone associate passion with money?”
If, ever, I go for an MFA I wouldn’t do it for money; rather I would do it for my growth and satisfaction. No one learns painting to make money? I really don’t think that men are that fool. I, once, wanted to become a painter but ended up becoming an engineer who makes a lot of money each month. However, I still want to take painting classes.
If you want to learn something then learn it for the sake of learning. Please don’t associate money with passion.
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I think the article though was about individuals being wary of expecting a return on the investment. Many people associate a more advanced degree with a higher-paying salary, and that is most certainly not always the case (especially in Fine Arts).
However, I agree with your sentiment. I went to graduate school because I was passionate about my field and wanted to become a better educator, not because it would move me up on the pay scale.
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Agreed! I find it funny that the GRS position seems to be “spend money on experiences, not stuff” — but education is looked at as a way to earn more money, not as an experience. It could be either, or both. Regardless, people still need to do the math.
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Well, that’s because no one would here would consider it reasonable to spend money on an experience that requires 100K in loans, especially if it also requires you to forego a couple years of salary. If you have the means to pay cash for grad school and go into semi-retirement, I don’t think anyone here on GRS would begrudge you that experience. It’s just that that isn’t the case for most people.
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I will have to agree with you SA, so long as you have the money in hand I’d do it. But how many other students are accumulating debt going to school for degrees viewed as the ticket in. Growing up I was told an Engineering Degree was the way in. Then when I was a senior in High School it was any degree is a ticket in. But when you go out and get a job, it’s a different story.
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I wasn’t talking about degrees specifically — I was talking about continuing education in general (like the painting classes mentioned above).
I won’t attempt to argue about costs because I’m not American and academia works differently up here.
If I’d had to pay the costs I’ve heard about in the U.S., I would likely never have done my MA. With lower costs, funding opportunities and paid work, it turned out to be a smart financial move for me.
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Well, I also believe errtepreneunship is about making a meaning, doing a service, or solving a problem. Meaningful money will come afterward and esp. when the service is really needed. Money is with no doubt a facilitator.For money making ideas, I look around and try to find a solution to some of those problems we are facing right now!No need to say that earning an MBA/MFA degree is no guarantee for making tons of money, so I don’t say it!
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And another point I would make to the aspiring MFA is, if you’re not pursuing the degree as a direct career move, why do you need the *degree* in order to learn the *art*?
I would have had a very different, and probably richer, life path had I realized that I could study history perfectly well at home by myself for free, and invested my higher education in something I would have *needed to be taught,* like engineering.
You can learn basic painting or writing technique at any old $30 community recreation center class. Once you know the rules, the rest is practice and repetition.
Every artist/writer I know earns a living doing something else.
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There is a common misperception that being a great artist is something you’re either born with or not, and that engineering can just be taught!
Having a little experience with art – and a LOT of experience with engineering – you’re selling them both short!
There is a feedback loop from other good artists that will help you improve, and perform much better if you go to school and learn from a master
likewise – in order to succeed in an area like engineering – you do have to have a certain minimum natural aptitude for math, science and spacial relations – it’s not just ‘book smarts’ and study hard
Of course the end of your comment sums it up
Nobody I know makes a living at art – maybe they all think like you and figured they could do as well with a $30 rec class
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My wife and I make a meager living at art. We make movies. It’s a [$%^&!@#] meager living but it’s a living, and we look forward to prospering in the future. Last week we sold $400 worth of DVDs and another $400 from PBS for some video rights. Next month there’s a $500 honorarium and a free trip. It’s not a ton of money but it adds up. And yes we get to sell out and make corporate videos to pay the bigger bills but it actually helps us practice instead of having a completely unrelated day job, and some day we hope to live off the movies alone. We’ll see. So far I love my day job. We considered going to an MFA in film school but $200K in debt to flip pancakes after 4 years? We’re better off in the trenches learning our craft and getting good at it.
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There are a lot of great communities of artists outside academia, you can work on craft and get great mentoring and feedback without getting an MFA.
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The cost of Writing MFA’s and similar degrees is an interesting issue, in particular because they are just about useless for all writing that falls outside the boundaries of “literary.” Not only would writers be able to learn the writing craft on their own, but the MFA would most likely do more harm than good. After all, unless you want to learn a very specific type of literary writing, you will not learn it in a traditional MFA program. Sure, there are a rare few programs where writers can study genre fiction or teen lit and kidlit, but for the most part, the MFA world serves only that narrow slice of the writing pie.
Writers can get most of the Writing MFA experience on their own if they’re saavy about how they do it. This was where the DIY MFA concept came from. While sitting in graduation for my own MFA program, I thought about how ridiculous it was to pay for an education that writers can just as easily do on their own. A few months later, I started DIY MFA to help other writers get that MFA experience without the exorbitant cost.
Ironically enough, while I preach against the traditional MFA route, I would not be able to do what I’m doing today had I not gotten my own MFA. After all, it’s having the credibility of going through a traditional MFA program that has allowed me to found DIY MFA and turn it into a business. So while the MFA probably will have no bearing on the success or failure of my career as a writer, it has contributed significantly to my career as an entrepreneur.
When I’m not writing children’s and teen fiction, I’m the founder and instigator at DIY MFA, the Do-It-Yourself “Degree” in Creative Writing. And I love my day job.
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I’ve heard many personal stories from those who went back for an advanced degree, only to not make up the difference in income. Sometimes, they even decide soon after graduation that something else is more important than that niche career they yearned for earlier in their life. The student loans didn’t magically disappear, either. I side with you that if you’re going to go back and get a Master’s Degree or higher, 1. Be sure you ARE passionate about doing what you’ll be qualified for and WILL BE IN FAR INTO THE FUTURE and 2. Make sure you go into something that will have a good enough payback (lifestyle can certainly be part of the equation). Good luck all.
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Sometimes the sense of achievement is enough of a motivator – being able to prove yourself that you can do it!
I totally agree that you should choose something that you are passionate about, but sometimes the money doesn’t matter. The change in lifestyle or change in job that the qualification can offer is often a reason in itself
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I think further education is simply a networking tool and a door opener. A lot of companies won’t look at you without a Masters Degree and the contacts that you make throughout the course of the program are sometimes just as valuable as the experience itself.
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Well, for some things that’s what a masters does. But there are certain jobs (in the health care sector, for example) that you can’t get licensed for without a masters — I can’t just decide to throw up a shingle and be a genetic counselor. Those sorts of jobs often, but not always, fall under the category of degrees where you’ll recoup your investment, depending on your earning power before you go back to school.
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I understand what you are saying. I’m in the education field and it seems that many people around me are going back to school for doctorate or ed specialist degrees. I think some are motivated by money, others by the contacts but seemingly very few by learning new things.
I have gone back to school for my doctorate and feel that in my particular case, it’s been a combination of all three. Nothing can compare to the new things I have learned about my field. The contacts I have made have been fantastic. However those are only as useful as you make them. The money aspect has been rewarding but will take a while to truly show a return. But the biggest thing that I have received is the knowledge that I can be be fearless and can start a phenomenal project and see it to completion. I think that along with the other three will take me wherever I go.
Sorry for such a long comment. I think I am passionate about self improvement.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with your pyramid metaphor. Many graduate degrees in humanities fields are due to this sort of marketing and propaganda campaign. Here is one thing I don’t understand. As someone with basic BA and B.Ed degrees, I have had quite a few offers to teach English as a second language. Some have been from non-profits, but others from private schools around the world that pay quite well. Wouldn’t this make a lot more sense financially and stress-wise (I have to assume a B.Ed is much easier than an MFA) than getting an MFA? Love the comment about already taking the marketing course btw!
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I’m in art history, and did my undergrad in fine arts (BFA), so I know a lot of people who have gone on to do MFAs. Most of them do it because they want to develop their work, be seen as professionals, and most of all be able to teach in a university. As was explained, you really do it because you have a certain career goal for yourself, not for the money.
Having said that, I think the cost of BFA and MFA programs in the US is absolutely ridiculous (I’m speaking more about the fine arts which is my experience). Private art schools (i.e. San Francisco Art Institute, School of the Art Institute of Chicago, etc.) have tuition of about $30,000 a year, and while some undergrads will get full scholarships, most will end up having to borrow or pay for a good chunk of it themselves. I’m not sure how funding works for MFA students, but I have heard that it is comparable.
So that’s why I left the States and returned to Canada when I wanted to do my BFA. Tuition is much more reasonable, and at the MFA level, most students will be able to pay for it through a combination of scholarships and working as a Teaching Assistant. So it is possible to do an MFA here without taking on any more debt or having to pay out of pocket.
Business schools and law schools can justify the high costs by saying that you will be able to get a high paying job upon graduation (although that is not always the case, and especially not in recent years), but the fine arts cannot justify such high costs. And I’d say Sarah’s estimate for how much a university instructor gets paid (about $4000 a course) is about right, and that is just one course. It’s well known that universities are cutting back on hiring full-time tenure-track professors by hiring more sessional/part-time instructors. And as a sessional you might get only one or two courses at a university. Most sessional instructors have to work at several institutions in order to get full time work. So how are you going to have time to do your own studio work, when you are commuting between 2-3 or more different schools?
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There’s definitely passion vs. salary increase — if it’s your passion, like Sarah says, go for it!
I know people who have gone back to school to “afford nice things” without really researching how much more they’re going to make, though. They assume more education leads to more money, which isn’t necessarily the case.
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Almost all of the best MFA programs offer outstanding scholarships or fellowships for their students. This is not need based financial aid; it is offered to all accepted students. The universities understand that an MFA is not a moneymaker, and have raised money to provide students with the means necessary. Underfunded MFA programs are often inferior MFA programs. I recently earned my MFA and it didn’t cost me, or any other student in the program, a penny. I would wholeheartedly discourage someone from paying tens of thousands of dollars for an MFA (I wouldn’t!) but I would encourage them to apply to the programs with good funding.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this article. I am disturbed by the professionalization of every field, which often just translates into getting more formal education. The universities, especially the for-profit ones, have really done a good job not only convincing prospective students but also employers that more education is necessary. And they have also convinced students that expensive is better. I went to a university that I am certain is raising their tuition by leaps and bounds every year not because they need the money, but because a high price tag equals a better education in most peoples’ minds.
Why can’t we go back to apprenticeships? Why do people think they need a culinary degree instead of just working in a kitchen and learning on the job? I think it is a scam.
And most writers of the past never went to university to learn how to write. They learned how to write by, well, writing. The education they received at university was more well-rounded and not focused specifically on whatever they were going to do (unless you were planning on doing law or medicine).
Perhaps the need to pay to learn how to do everything speaks to the breakdown of community and individual relationships. We can’t learn from someone if we have no interpersonal connections.
But of course the unpaid internship is still alive and well. It’s just that you can’t have that internship until you have the degree.
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Aaaaa haaaa haaaa! The MFA in Writing! None of my favorite writers has one. Some were college dropouts, some never set foot in a university.
I’d argue that the MFA killed American literature by further isolating writers from the real world, discouraging innovation and promoting inbreeding. It also created a glut in the market: you don’t need to write well enough to attract a publisher, only to fill a student loan application.
Who reads poetry journals? People who are trying to publish in them, nobody else. It’s a Ponzi scheme. An MFA only qualifies you to teach other aspiring MFAs, unlike other more useful professions where you actually serve the world at large.
I’ve been in enough writing workshops to know how they operate: by killing originality and breeding conformity. “This is how you write a short story.” “These are the required parts of the novel.” “This is how to write a personal essay.” And nothing interesting is ever produced– only imitations of imitations of imitations nobody except the author cares about.
An aspiring writer is probably much better off with a BA in journalism. At least that degree is aimed to equip you with the tools you need to make a living with your writing–and what you do outside of work is up to you.
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Unless you really, really want to be a journalist, I actually think the best education for a writer is to major in a non-writerly subject matter you find fascinating (bonus points if it’s something fairly technical, since that’ll open up more opportunities post-college) and to intern/work/freelance as a writer and/or editor through college. And read all you can, plus work on your own projects.
Whether you want to be a creative writer or a non-creative writer, that combination will give you lots of mental tools many writers don’t have plus a credible specialization if you want to make writing your “day job.”
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A thousand times this. I have an engineering degree and write romance and women’s fiction. An MFA would be nice, but it wouldn’t help me professionally at all. For now, I’d rather do without the MFA and continue juggling writing with my day job. It’s much easier to write when I have the lights on and food in the fridge.
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@ victoria–
I don’t know about that formula, I’d have to see it in practice to see if it actually works.
I know a lot of journalists who make a living by writing though– not just as reporters or editors, but writing for magazines, or writing marketing and PR copy, or writing non-fiction books, or training materials, or running publications for governments and institutions. These aren’t people I’ve just heard about but family members or people I do business with. Yes, journalism proper is a tough ungrateful job, and the hours are horrid, but the skills are transferable to a lot of industries where publishing happens.
Of course, speaking of literature proper, genius needs little formal schooling. Let’s see… Joyce attended medical school for a month, Cervantes was a soldier, Mark Twain was a jack of all trades who actually made his name as a journalist, Hemingway and Garcia Marquez were journalists (hmmm…..), Kafka was a government bureaucrat, Shakespeare was deer poacher and theater impresario, Whitman was another jack of all trades and… journalist, Rimbaud was a crazy teenager who ended his days as an arms runner, Baudelaire studied a bit of law and mostly spent other people’s money…
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I do personally know people (through writing groups) who have used that exact formula, and I guess I’d call myself a variation on it. While my degree was in comparative literature, I’m primarily a medical writer, in part because I broke into freelancing pitching articles about an uncommon medical condition that I have, and in part using the post-baccalaureate coursework I’ve done in the health sciences. I’m likely to be getting a professional MS in the health sciences in the relatively near future as well, and I intend to keep writing after I do it.
I know a fair number of folks who have stable careers based on journalism degrees, and they have a pretty big variety in terms of the jobs they’ve been able to get. I’m not saying it’s a bad choice by any means, and I’m totally with you that it’s far better than a creative writing-focused English degree for an aspiring writer! But I do think that having a specialized subject matter background along with published clips and professional experience is an option students who want to write overlook, and it’s a combination that makes people stand out in a good way.
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Having seen a fair bit of bad writing from subject matter experts, I’d say learning more about writing as a craft is essential too. Some people are born writers, but skills like research, editing, audience awareness, interviewing, tone, stylistics and grammar aren’t innate. Formal training in language and professional writing can compliment natural ability and work experience.
I’m not saying people who want to be writers should get a degree in writing or an MFA, but they should find a way to build their skills. You don’t just magically become a writer one day — it’s a constant learning process.
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You forgot two of the most famous examples in American poetry: Wallace Stevens, the insurance executive and William Carlos Williams, the doctor.
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@Victoria — I keep coming back to your suggestion because I wonder if there’s a piece missing. To be a teacher, you need a degree in your field and then a teaching degree. (Or experience in your field if you are a tech teacher.) Essentially, the knowledge of your field comes first, then training in teaching.
I think the ideal formula for writers would involve study in the field they want to write with coupled with study about writing as a craft. (Stylistics, genre, rhetoric, etc.)
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Victoria, this is exactly the advice I give to aspiring writers — it’s highly biased by the path I’ve taken, but I believe that we have enough MFA viewpoints in the world of letters. I do love a good novel set in a college town now and again, but it’s great to also read work by people who know a lot about (say) what it’s like to work as a dishwasher in a restaurant or a plastic surgeon or a cameraman for a local TV affiliate. I go through weeks when I’m sure my mission in life is to write a novel in which the investment bankers do what (my impression of) “real” investment bankers do — not the buying and selling of stocks and bonds and commodities but the often boring but necessary work of putting together enormous financing packages for corporations. It’s ripe for fictionalization
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I absolutely agree! Per my comment below, the main reason I didn’t get an MFA was financial. But I was also concerned by people I met who seemed incapable of existing outside of academia. They went from BFA programs, to MFA programs, to teaching writing. They often seemed detached from “the real world” or how the average person thought, because everyone they knew was a writer. How is someone supposed to create realistic fictional characters in that kind of environment? That’s not to mention the bland, overly workshopped stories that sometimes result from those programs.
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I think someone who wants to be a good journalist would also do well to study history, political science and economics. Of course they need to practice writing, but it is important for journalists to be knowledgeable about the world so they are more than just stenographers.
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I have an MFA in writing. In poetry. The only way I could have chosen a less-lucrative education path was to get a grad degree in origami.
But here’s the thing, or two of them really: One, I didn’t do it for the money (who the hell is a poet for the money??) and two, that degree gave me a 25% raise AND cut my hours-at-work in half.
I was already working in education. The MFA allowed me to teach at the college level. I spent one year adjuncting (for terrible pay) and landed a full-time job after the 1st year. I make good money. I’m on campus 20 hours a week, tops (I work more hours than that, but I do them at home and on my own schedule). I have control of my schedule. I have the best job in the world.
I’m also the managing editor of a poetry journal, and @El Nerdo, I can tell you for a fact that most of the people who want to be published in poetry journals don’t read them, either. The good poets, however, do. It’s a specialty publication–you could just as well ask, “Who reads medical journals?” or “Who reads law reviews?” Poets–good poets–read poetry journals because that’s where we find good contemporary poetry.
The 2 years that I spent at my MFA were 2 of the best years of my life and worth every penny I spent. Education, IMO, is valuable for its own sake (and if I didn’t feel that way, I wouldn’t be teaching). I didn’t do any of it to network or to work with famous teachers (although I did, insofar as any poet in this country can be considered “famous”). I didn’t do it so that I could win awards (I have) and I sure as hell didn’t do it because I thought it was an investment in my future.
The fact that it turned out to be an investment–that I am happier in my lucrative, satisfying job than I ever thought possible, that I learned a self-motivation that many aspiring writers never get down, that I made friends, true friends, that I’ll have for the rest of my life–was secondary.
Being in a community where you are surrounded by other artists–by people who just naturally “get” you–is an experience that is priceless. And it’s one that I don’t expect non-artists to understand. Some do, most don’t.
I hate it when education is treated as an investment. The paper matters very little most of the time. What you do with the education–both during and after earning the degree–is what’s important.
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Reuth, it’s funny, as I was contemplating the piece (between submission and publication), I thought about adding in a bit about poets. There’s something about the craft of poetry that can be enormously benefited by rigorous study of form and historical models, not easily done in one’s own living room. Not to say that lovely poetry cannot exist without academia; but much of the best poetry has been written by very, very well-educated writers. We all know that poetry is not entered into for the money, so I don’t really think poets are coming to Get Rich Slowly to make their career decisions
And, for the record, I read poetry in journals! And it’s usually worth far more money than I pay for it.
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@ Reuth
I actually have a BA in “Creative Writing” but I never went for the MFA– I got an MA in literature instead, as the MFA programs seemed too inbred and actually sort of provincial– they seemed to focus more on watching one’s contemporary compatriots when people should maybe be reading more Kafka or Rabelais instead. I did love my time in grad school as I got to read a ton of stuff from all eras and in different languages, and yes, being around people who love what you do is wonderful, but one can’t live forever in an isolated ghetto.
I actually know a person who is over 60 years of age and got an MFA back in the day (maybe it was the 70s or the 80s), but found no good paying work with this degree, then got another Master’s on a related but better-paying field. She also pays a writing coach these days, and is now drowning in debt, with a mortgage underwater and student loans that cannot be shaken by bankruptcy — she’s filed for it I think twice already, and retirement is upon her. She’s my cautionary tale. Life: what not to do. Paying money to write is silly. If you want to write, just apply ass to chair.
What I meant by the poetry journal thing: yes, good poets read other poets, but unlike doctors who go out and practice what they learn in their journals, who do poets talk to these days? Who listens? Poetry students, that’s it.
The last time I went to a poetry reading, at the insistence of some poet friends, I wanted to blow my brains out– for every one or two okay poems delivered I had to endure 80 long-winded horrorshows of self-indulgence. And I didn’t have my own car so I had to wait. Note to aspiring poets: sAAying loOOOoong syyyyllables like THIS! and ALTERing your CAdence!– don’t MAgically turn COWpies into FLOOOOooowers! (I will never get those 4 hours back. Never.)
Anyway, sorry if I sound ultra-cranky, but I am truly fed up with that scene.
I did have hope for Joseph Brodsky’s attempt to bring poetry to the masses at the end of the last century, but unfortunately for whatever reason that did not pan out and we got annoying poetry slams instead. I get the feeling that people just do it for the attention. I don’t know. It’s just very frustrating. For a poet to have something to say these days it’s probably better to be in a band and write lyrics. Call me a philistine, but I love Patti Smith more than any contemporary academic poets. Yes, she had her cheesy moments too, sure, but some of her lines will live forever.
Anyway, my point is… I love poetry, but good poets are hard to find among so much self-indulgence. We should take the poetry institution off academic life support and let it live or die on its own merits. That way, all those who are in it for the teaching jobs or for life postponement or to avoid hard work will instantly vanish, and then just the truly blighted with the poetry sickness will continue to howl until people are ready to listen again. But please let it be just them.
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Nerdo, Not sure why you recommend journalism.
I don’t think journalism is a great field go to into for financial reasons. Journalists are relatively low paid, the demand for such jobs is dropping and the competition is high. Maybe you know a lot of journalists or something, but thats not a thriving industry. Just look at all the newspaper dying off gradually..
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Hey, no, I didn’t say that– I said that if someone wants to be a writer they are better off studying journalism than getting an MFA.
I know a bunch of journalists, yes, and I wouldn’t say “go work for a newspaper” in this day and age. Still, the training and the ethics and established practices of the journalistic profession are bound to be a huge advantage when it comes to writing on any project, for money or for the glory or both, whether you’re writing an article on electric automobiles or doing research for a historical novel.
Even when we’re talking about people’s recurring dreams of quitting life and becoming a blogger, someone with journalistic training will have an enormous advantage over civilians– I’m not saying they will be first to the finish line, but they will rarely be last simply because of their good kung-fu.
Once I was at a language conference and they put me in a group with a journalist. We had to write a report about the previous 3 days of talks and and panels and keynote speakers. It was a huge task. The dude cranked out a brilliant report on 15 minutes and then we had a couple of hours left for cigarettes and random chatter. And when you’re getting paid by the word count, you can’t beat that kind of productivity.
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I sometimes wonder if I’m the last journalist in the U.S. who was hired without a journalism degree — or any degree at all. (I was a newspaper journalist for 18 years.)
I agree, though, that the job teaches you to pay attention not just to what’s being said but to what’s going on around you.
Finally got a degree two years ago, at age 52. In my second year considered going for a master’s degree in a new program at the university. That was because I couldn’t see a future job for myself (newspapers were dying), and figured if I had a master’s degree I might be more employable. I was also fascinated by the idea of “scholarship,” never having had much time to think about learning. It would have depended on my being able to find funding, since I didn’t want to graduate at 54 with student loans.
But a few months later, MSN Money hired me to write the Smart Spending blog, and that plus full-time school plus managing the building in which I lived kept me so busy and so tired that I couldn’t even THINK about tacking on another two years of studies.
Incidentally, I’ve still never taken a writing class.
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To be fair, I love the work of several writers who came out of the Iowa Waiter’s Workshop – Tracy Kidder, TC Boyle, Ann Patchett, Elizabeth McCracken.
There have to be other MFA’s among my favorite writers, I just notice the Iowa ones especially.
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Great post!
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What a GREAT article! I think this is exactly the kind of thinking future creatives and artists absolutely must engage in: cost/benefit analysis. There was a recent article by Adam Ragusea in the Boston Globe about how there is a “liberal arts trap” (title of the article)-and how schools are pumping out innocent, unemployable musicians, which is my particular field. The author then went on to describe how they are jaded and no longer working in the field, and blamed the institution for their inability to get employment in their field.
This makes me angry, because nobody MAKES you engage in this sort of degree! The author of that article clearly didn’t engage in the sort of deep questioning that you, Sarah, have engaged in before pursing a higher degree in the arts.
I myself am finishing my Masters of Music in Vocal Performance/Opera in May-a highly unemployable field, I will say so right off the bat. I went into my degree for love of the field and of music, and only when I received a full scholarship/teaching assistantship that enabled me to graduate with my MM debt-free. Until I received that scholarship offer, I was preparing to accept an offer to begin my MPA; only when I knew I could be debt-free did I pursue my true love.
And you know what? I am SO excited to graduate, and be able to begin truly pursuing my field with auditions and low paying entry level opera gigs, because I know I have no hefty loan payments that need to begin. I can pursue my dream and go through the starving-artist phase because I didn’t bankrupt myself by pursuing my education.
Thank you, for validating my belief that the creatives of this world MUST take responsibility for their financial future (including education)!
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This is a great article. It’s worth knowing that many administrators in academe refer to masters programs as “cash cows” and regard the masters students with contempt (ugly but true)–though some programs, like masters “finishing” programs for engineers are a bit better. If you apply for anything, apply for a PhD–and if you don’t want it, leave early with a terminal masters. That will improve your chances of getting funding and will probably get you better treatment and access to resources.
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Sometimes I forget I’m reading an American blog until the conversation turns to academics
In Canada, Masters programs are degrees in and of themselves. In most cases, you have to have an MA before you apply to PhD programs.
I sometimes wonder how that affects the job market here as opposed to the U.S. (where I understand it’s sometimes seen as a “cop-out” to do a terminal Masters.)
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I am retired from the US Air Force. I have a BS in Biology which I have never used except for trivia games and to be able to understand what my wife is going through with her
Type I diabetes. When I was still in the military, I decided to get an MBA because I thought it would improve my job prospects for when I retired. As an aside I would like to point out that a military retirement is not as good as it looks from the outside, especially if one is enlisted. I know I and my family cannot live on the $2100 per month I get from Uncle Sam.
Anyways, I was overseas when I decided to get my MBA and I got into an online program that had a really good deal for active military overseas. I was paying about $200 per class. I completed the first seven of thirteen classes while overseas. When I returned to the States, the price of classes went up to something like $800 per. I did four more classes before I retired, so had two left to complete the program once I retired. Those classes were still at a discount, but ended up being about $1800 per. So the grand total for my MBA was about $8200, so not too bad. I paid for everything as I went along and did not incur any debt.
About six months after I completed my MBA I got a job offer for a better position. The pay was a little better, but the cost of living was much less (DC vs Syracuse). The MBA is not required for my current position, but I can see where it might come in handy in the future. I do not believe the degree had any bearing on getting hired for this position.
So was it worth it? I have not seen any financial benefits as of yet, but I did learn a lot. So far, I think it was a wash, but that is mostly because I was able to get the degree on the cheap. If I had to pay full price for my classes, it probably would have cost $35-40,000. In that case it would not have been worth it.
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A higher degree can definitely pay off, in the right fields. And if your employer pays, at least in part, then there’s no reason not to get a masters degree. But in many fields its a nice wall decoration but not a ticket to a big payoff!
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I agree. I hope nobody in science or engineering takes this article’s advice. The article does not apply to all master’s degrees, it only seems to discuss MFAs.
Employers looking for scientists or technical expertise will specifically state in job notices that they prefer or require at least a master’s degree. Also if you apply for a job doing specific technical work, you really need to be able to list certifications and proof that your training is up to date. Technical and hard science jobs tend to pay much better than jobs that require an MA or MFA.
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Suddenly, I feel a whole lot better about getting my MBA. Sometimes I question its value, because I only work part-time….but in reality it has allowed me to work part-time while raising kids while also making decent money. And I managed to get out of grad school without any debt.
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Great article. I’ve recently been thinking about this, but for the sciences. I often wonder about the opportunity costs of going for a PhD vs getting an entry level job with a BS. In my case, my grad school stipend will be equivalent to an entry level job, but the opportunity for raises is 0. However, for me the chance to do the research I want is worth the trade-off.
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As a scientist with 20 + yrs of exoperience, don’t get a another degree unless your employee is paying for it.
And unless you are dying to sit in a office writing grant proposals all day, don’t bother with the PhD.
A good researcher doesn’t need a PhD to do interesting research. You need to be good at research to do interesting reaserch.
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I think it’s absolutely RIDICULOUS that non-profits and other organizations are using MBAs and MFAs as “admission tickets” to jobs. Who says that having a MBA and/or a MFA means you are better accomplished, brighter and more worthy of the position???
This is just another form of segregation if you ask me. It’s all about who can afford (or wants to be in massive debt) to get the more advanced degrees and has absolutely nothing to do with a person’s innate abilities or talent!
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I agree with you. This is the worst kind of gatekeeping. Talk about barriers to social mobility. (And how ironic, considering the mission of most nonprofits.)
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I agree. Also, I’ve noticed many MFAs look down on “hack” writers (meaning: writers who dare to write for money). Only someone who’s never had to worry about money could afford that kind of snobbery.
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I don’t think requiring a masters degree or higher education should be interpreted as some sort of unfair discrimination.
I’d assume that the main reason some employers end up requiring a masters is mostly because of supply and demand in the field. If theres an over supply of people looking for work in a field then an easy way to narrow the field down is to require a higher education level. If there weren’t ample people applying for jobs then the employers wouldn’t have the luxury of having higher education requirements. Of course in other areas a grad degree is required just to demonstrate a higher training and competency level.
Requiring education is just a filter. Its not about being elitist or arrogant or looking down on people or limiting social mobility.
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Jim, you are absolutely right. Part of it *is* supply and demand. A lot more people have bachelors degrees now, and an employer with a lot of resumes on his/her desk is going to look for an easy way to filter down the pile. Pulling out people with a Masters is an easy, objective way to do that culling.
Also realize that in some fields, the Masters degree is the new Bachelors degree. When I got my BA 20 years ago, it actually *meant* something to an employer to have a BA. It meant that you’d expended a signficant amount of time and energy completing a program and that you’d probably learned something along the way. The proliferation of ways to obtain a BA in the last 10 years or so (particularly at for-profit, online colleges) has diluted the BA degree into something that’s not special any more, and is no longer an indication of particular effort or learning. In some cases, it now takes a Masters degree for an employer to think your’e serious about your field and that you have the “stick-to-it-iveness” to write thesis and to complete what you’ve started.
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My MBA was a total waste of time, I would have been better off working a second job with the time I spent on it. I could have made some money or gotten some skills that would have been a benefit.
Luckily, my company paid the tuition and I borrowed most of the books, so no expense, just time. Glad I have the 3 letters, but not really worth it.
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I used to think that degrees and professional certifications were necessary, but I’ve gotten over that myth.
I work in the tech industry–where many people advise getting lots of technical certifications & professional certifications. However, I have a B.S. in psychology, and M.A. in education (actually, recreation), and have NO technical certifications. Yet I’m a database/software consultant charging $150-$175/hour, and have been self-employed for over 5 years in the field, consistently earning over 6 figures and growing my business even during the financial meltdown.
How is that possible? Because my clients are more concerned with actual skills & experience instead of letters attached to my name. Since I can do what my clients want, that’s all they care about. And in most cases–unless you choose to work for an organization that values credentials over substance, or in more select fields (medicine, law, accounting, etc.)–that’s what most employers & customers care about. They all want to see you provide value–no matter what your credentials.
So, instead of worrying about getting an MFA or any other advanced degree or certification, focus your energy on producing and demonstrating value. If you want to write, write. Self-publish a book using Lulu.com, or write an installment novel or nonfiction book on your website (yes, this has been done successfully; see: http://www.ashmaurya.com/2011/01/meta-principles-i-learned-from-running-lean/). So stop the hand-wringing and start producing something.
I’m not trying to disparage anyone. I’ve just found that in my life and work experience, if I want to do something–even something that I originally think requires a degree–there are almost always multiple paths to the goal. Look for alternate options, and you’ll find them. Don’t let your potentially flawed thinking and assumptions limit your options and possibilities.
Greg Miliates
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I’m a professional non-fiction writer and I went to school for business. That helped me far more than any English or fine arts degree would have. Most English majors I know flip fries or wait tables for a living. I think an MFA would be a terrible waste, at least from an investment and use of resources point of view. If that’s what you need to do to get a job you need then that might be necessary but you also don’t need to pay a university if you’re just doing it for the education or experience. You could probably get all that from $1K in books off of Amazon. If a company is going to pay for your tuition, well maybe it’s an option. But I certainly wouldn’t borrow money to go to school to get an unmarketable degree. That’s why we have so many masters graduates living at home today with mom and dad, complaining about their $110K in student debt that they can’t pay off. Get a degree that will get you a job. Get a job that makes a little money, then use your night and weekend hours to focus on doing what you really want to do in life.
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I think it really depends on the type of English degree. I don’t know what it’s like in the U.S., but Canada has BAs and MAs in professional writing, communications and journalism, not just creative writing and literature. Most of the people I know who did degrees in applied fields found jobs fairly easily.
Unfortunately, having interviewed people from the latter category I’ve seen that a degree in literature isn’t proof that you’re going to make a good marketing writer, technical writer, article writer, educational writer, etc. People with lit degrees need work or volunteer experience — when you get an interview, you have to prove you can write something other than stories or essays. Nothing says “I’m capable” like a portfolio of published work.
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Or a portfolio of WORK, period. My observation is a lot of liberal-arts students never produce anything. They read what other people write, and discuss that, and then never write anything themselves that isn’t required for a class.
A writer will write regardless of whether there is an assignment due.
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“get a degree that will get you a job”
I do feel I need to respond to this, if only because it’s been a common theme during this recession. It’s very difficult to know exactly what degrees are going to be in demand when you graduate (especially from bachelor or PhD programs, which often take at least 4 years). When I first started undergraduate, pre-law was considered a very responsible choice. Same with those who started law school 3 years ago. The market changes. Right now, engineering is considered the responsible choice, but it may not guarantee you a job by the time you graduate. I consider myself lucky that my field is in demand now, but I could easily see it becoming over glutted with new graduates in a half decade.
With education/jobs, as with stocks, your main strategy shouldn’t be to time the market.
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I understand your point that things can change over time and its hard to predict the future years in advance. But generally its reasonably easy bet that nursing, engineering, business, or other higher demand fields will still have far better job prospects 4 years from now than psychology, arts, communications or other fields with a glut of people.
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Great post. I would love to go back to school, and would, if I were to win the lottery or something. Not to make more money, that’s for sure.
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For some artists, getting a masters is still cheaper than setting up a workshop, and gives them much more scope to experiment. It would cost me a fortune to purchase every tool I use at university- the lathe, the potter’s wheel, the kiln, the spray gun and booth for glaze spraying, the silk screen set up for making transfers- not to mention even basic materials, which are covered in my costs. Lots and lots of people I know are now doing masters- the popular thing is to do your BA at Sunderland, Cardiff or Central St Martins (hello!) and then go and do a masters in Ceramics & Glass at the RCA.
It’s not what I want to do though. I would rather spend time doing artist’s residencies and working as an assistant for another artist to get myself established. I find education quite frustrating. The network I’ve got hold of since I came to school is AMAZING, but the debt and the worry of taking on more? Not so great. Plus the essay writing. No one told me there was a dissertation…
I will point out that with the internet and alternative galleries, it is much more possible than it used to be to get yourself in with the right crowd. But university, wow, it just opens the doors. Sometimes I wish I could steal my course director’s address book. She knows a LOT of big timers.
The masters situation in the UK is crazy anyway. Nearly all of my friends who went to university are going on to do a PhD or masters (or in the case of one, changing tact completely and studying nurses). I think it’s a reaction to the crap job market really.
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Sarah, your piece gives off the impression you regret getting your MBA?
“I probably would have, but got swayed toward the MBA by a bad ex-boyfriend who will one day be the centerpiece of a riveting memoir. Or novel.”
Maybe the negative phrasing is more towards the ex and not the time/money/effort (TME) towards your MBA and I am reading this all wrong but as someone who is currently planning to write his GMAT and apply to Business School I am curious with regards to your view on your MBA.
The MBA will probably set me back 80k in student loans however It is only a 1 year program (Hult) and the program would allow me to complete the degree across 3 campus’ of which I have chosen Dubai, Shanghai and San Francisco. I think the TME to obtain my MBA in this manner will be worth the debt. Many jobs today prize a Masters, especially an MBA. However I would be leaving a full time job paying 60k a year to do so and I am still nursing 10k of debt from my undergrad (which would be eliminated if I cashed out my employee pension plan and employee savings). Though saying that I am no longer happy in my current role and the options for advancement are not great, I am 3-4 years into my career and have pigeon holed myself into an analyst/reporting role I do not like, any change of position would require a significant hit in salary. I feel the MBA will help me shift into consulting while retaining my salary + more.
Anyways thanks for the article!
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Yes. I regret the boyfriend and the way I made the decision (I would have probably gone on to get an MA and a PhD in English literature were it not for the boyfriend — awesome, but my life would have been on a totally different path that may not have ended up with the wisdom I think I have now). I don’t regret the MBA. It *was* a degree that would pay me back for the investment — I just have skipped off the MBA mainstream for the time being. I’ve been able to get jobs based entirely on my MBA, and yes, the prestige of the program I attended DID make a difference. I believe MBAs and JDs are far different than fine arts degrees in this regard; both will open doors based on their prestige, but only MBAs and JDs will probably mean dollar signs.
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Every time I hear people (which is always online) talking about how much they “want to write” some part of me can’t help but to think that “write” can only mean, “make sure everyone hears what I have to say”. Sometimes it seems like a very egotistical pursuit: “listen to me, the things that I’m saying are important!”
Anybody can write, especially now that the Internet makes publishing trivial. The thing that you’re looking for as a professional writer is a big audience, right? That’s why you want the social network mentioned in the article.
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Your comment made me laugh! I see a lot of books, blog posts, articles, etc. sent my way. Almost everyone can write, but not everyone can write well. Even fewer people know how to market their work and deal with criticism.
Ironically, many of the professional writers I know don’t have their names on anything — they’re technical writers, marketing writers and ghost writers. The ones that write free lance have to focus on their personal brand in order to get more work – it’s not ego so much as it is business promotion.
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I’m so glad other people realize this! I got an MFA in 2006, but had a full ride (tuition was covered, and was paid a stipend) and did it purely for fun. I did have to take a modest amount loans out, but paid them off pretty quickly (because I went back into the workforce as a non-writer) and hadn’t incurred loans from my undergrad. It was a fantastic experience, but that being said, I wouldn’t recommend it to most people.
Some of my grad school cohort have gone on to teach, but tenure-track positions are more or less non-existent. Most of these people slog away teaching English 101 (the worst class to teach) for $10/hr and no benefits. And they have zero hope of a raise or better working conditions. The more successful people of this same cohort left the field entirely.
Beyond the expense and zero job potential, the best reason I can find for not getting an MFA is that writing cannot be taught. You can either do it or you can’t. Two to three years of useless writing workshops won’t make you better. I acquired new tools for my proverbial toolbox, but all the classes in the world can’t put good ideas in your head or make up for a lack in compositional talent. Terrible writers I met in the program were still terrible writers when we handed our diplomas, no matter how earnestly or hard they worked.
And as far as publishing is concerned — that is complete crap-shoot, based on random luck and absolutely nothing more. Talented, hard-working people aren’t necessarily rewarded and plenty of terrible and/or lazy writers make huge bucks. In fact, most of the best-selling writers aren’t good writers. I see people “follow their dreams” to be a fiction writer and can’t help but snicker. There’s virtually no good fiction being produced anymore and the market is beyond over-saturated. And that’s coming from a poet! (No one reads poetry and I can’t really blame them.)
I have to say, however, that having a master’s, any master’s, does help me stand out among my cohort (I’m a college administrator) and certainly does not hurt my resume in the big bad working world. But it didn’t really increase my worth, either.
MFA’s are a great idea if you have the means and want to learn for learning’s sake. Otherwise, get a day job, write at night, and hope for the best.
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Interesting article. However I feel that you do miss something. I agree with your point, fully agree with it.
What I feel is missing is the observation that in the United States education seems to become too expensive. You already mentioned the pyramid scheme like MFA, but I think that should be expanded to an observation that ALL college level education (and up) is getting too expensive to be worth it.
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Great article! I have a BFA in writing and literature, with a focus on creative writing, and I could really relate to this. When I graduated (eight years ago), many of my fellow students and professors encouraged me to continue on to an MFA. Because of grants, merit scholarships, and my parents’ college savings, my undergraduate loan debt was fairly small. Had I continued on to an MFA, I’d have needed to pay for it all on my own, and I may not have been able to work full-time while attending school. In retrospect, it would have been a financial disaster for me, especially since I could only find retail work for a couple years after graduating.
Certainly, for some fields a master’s degree is an absolute necessity. But creative writing is not one of them.
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It’s interesting that you sort of dismiss the quality of life improvement (in the TESOL example).
Personally, I considered the financials when I went to grad school for social work, which is also a field where you absolutely have to have a master’s to get a decent job. Legally you can’t even call yourself a “social worker” without a master’s and a license, though that doesn’t stop most people.
The master’s level jobs pay only a little more and I calculated that with the cost of tuition and the cost of not working for 2 years, I’d have to work in the field for more than a decade before I got my money’s worth.
I chose to do it because I wanted to improve my quality of life. Previously my choices were to get paid well at a boring job I hated (finance) or get paid nothing at a meaningful job I wasn’t well-trained for (social work/case work). I chose to pursue my master’s so I could be well-trained to do the type of work I want to do, and it has improved my life dramatically. I’m skilled at what I do and able to genuinely help people at a job I like. To me, a better life is well worth the cost of a couple of nice cars… I’d rather be happy and ride a bike.
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But would you also have done if you would have never gotten your investment back?
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Sarah, I didn’t mean to dismiss the quality of life argument; just to make the point that it’s something you need to enter into with your eyes wide open. If quality of life is worth paying off debt for 20 or 30 years (and I would argue it often is — happiness is far more important to me than the size of my retirement account), then go for it; just have that in mind as you sign the loan documentation. And perhaps find a way to reduce your debt with that knowledge!
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very introspective article, i like it!! i’m a professional artist and am being courted by an MFA program at the moment. fyi, to get ahead in my field you do not need a BFA or MFA, just a very strong art portfolio; the BFA certainly helped speed things along with great instruction and a lot of shortcuts through the guesswork of producing a personal, commercially viable body of work. my parents paid for it, but i think it was a great value and i was able to immediately get work after graduation.
that said, i’ve looked into an MFA and run the cost-benefit-analysis and can’t figure out if it’s worth it. the only big reason to get an MFA in my field is to teach, and yes i’ve heard 4k a class too. i don’t have any experience teaching though and have never had a desire to teach, but this program is relatively inexpensive (under 20k), designed for working professionals, and they’ve offered me scholarships several times (i was able to juice a colleague to find out it would bring my total tuition down to a little over 10k).
but again, geez, i don’t really want to teach, i’m not making a huge amount of money at the moment but i have a lot of time on my hands to create a new portfolio and thankfully the drive to do it. i’m working my way out of 7k in credit card debt, and more than anything i want to be debt-free and start saving some money…
so yeah, i guess i just worked that out for myself. i am flattered they keep offering me scholarships, but the realist in my head keeps saying “the ones who made the real money in the gold rush are the ones who sold shovels and gold pans”.
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I have a friend who was a great filmmaker and then got an MFA and went into teaching and never made a movie again.
AVOID.
Focus on your portfolio and apply for grants and residencies instead.
Best wishes!
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Sarah, thank you for contributing such a thoughtful and insightful article; very relevant to my life right now. I plan to bookmark this blog entry so I can refer back to it as I plan how to get my MFA without incurring debt. (I want the MFA specifically to teach Comp101 in community college/night school, as an income stream from a job I can still do after retirement.)
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Excellent article! I had been considering going back to school to get my Masters in Library Science (to change careers). It turns out that to work in any sort of library setting, you HAVE to have a Masters. However, Librarians don’t get paid well (unless you are a corporate librarian which is a specialized field, obviously). I ultimately decided not to go because it was going to take me so long to earn back the cost of going to school.
I have been working part time for the past few years at an aquatic facility. There are two program managers at this facility. They basically run the various activities – swim lessons, seasonal swim teams, water polo leagues and numerous other things that take place in this facility all year round (it is a very large, nationally known facility). The job is not brain surgery…it requires some organizational skills as well as people skills. It is a not for profit company They REQUIRE that you have a Masters Degree in something…anything really…to be considered for the job. The job pays less than $25,000 a year.
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Actually, you don’t need an MFA to teach community college. You need a Master’s degree, which can be an MA in English. You can get an MA in English with an emphasis in Creative Writing. When I first set out to get my MA in order to change careers (I didn’t want to teach), I determined that an MA was easier to get in locations near me, and cheaper. I also found that many MFA programs are so competitive, that you pretty much needed an MA first. The nice thing about the MA is that you can then enter an MFA or a PhD program if you truly want to be an academic. If you just want to write, don’t get either. Just write.
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Honestly these days, it seems like a BS/BA do not mean a thing even with experience for employers especially with so many people out of work.
Employers favor MS/MA with a bit of experience.
People don’t usually consider going back to school for continued education and or to pick up a certificate to stay current on skills or pick up new skills in place of a masters degree but it is worth a thought.
I too am in the process of picking up certifications and getting a masters degree but not an MFA.
Maybe those considering an MFA should look into Technical Writting.
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MA in Technical Writing = massive layoffs for me. Luckily, I had no loans. I only know a few people from my program who still are doing tech writing.
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I think going for higher education only makes sense if you can increase your skill level and your chances of a higher paying job. Just getting a degree doesn’t work anymore.
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I am having a similar problem. I finished my undergrad in 3 years, and went to grad school, finished my MS in 1 year. I fast tracked all the way. Right now the positions I am educationally qualified, I don’t have enough work experience. And for the ones I have enough work experience, I am overqualified in terms of education. Sigh
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I do not recommend getting a Masters for most people. The investment in time and capital will rarely give you a positive return. People tend to think these days when they can’t get a job out of college, they should go and get a masters. It is an employer’s market right now, meaning that employers are able to pay workers that hold Master’s degrees as much as one who holds just a bachelor’s degree.
If you do want to get your master’s, work for a company that will pay for it. That way you have some flexibility in your work schedule and no monetary risk.
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That’s how my software engineer husband got his bachelor’s (he had a 2 year degree) and then his master’s. That was, however, before the IRS started taxing it as a benefit–not sure how the rules are now, but it’s probably still cheaper than student loans.
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I remember asking my priest when I was growing up why he got a PhD in Early French Literature. His answer was one I will never forget, “It gave me great pleasure.” So as I read this article about the payback of an MFA, I kept thinking about the difference between education and vocational training.
I had never thought of any degree in Fine Arts to be anything other than education for enjoyment and its own sake. If you are looking for vocational training to improve your earning potential then you are looking for training and not education. The two are not interchangeable and we need to be honest with ourselves about that.
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I like this. I am really in the learning for its own sake camp, but am discouraged about the price of higher education getting so disconnected from reality. Who dares to study Early French Literature any more? I know it won’t pay the bills, but I do want to live in a world where some people know things like that! It makes me sad for my kids, who are approaching college age. I think in the future more people will have to go the autodidact route like Greg Miliates above (though he did get to do a psych BA and an Education MA). Maybe some kind of alternative universities will emerge from our out-of-whack system.
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I really like this article, and it’s something that I want to show to my undergraduate students who tell me that they want to go to graduate school.
I earned a master’s degree and am now working on my Ph.D. in English because I want to be a college professor; it’s what I always wanted to be, even though I know that I will never be rich and the job market is extremely competitive.
But I know a lot of people who went to graduate school not necessarily because it was their passion or even because they thought it would make them richer. They went back to graduate school because they hated/were disappointed with their jobs. They went back because they didn’t know what else to do and thought they’d figure it out once they were in graduate school (though they didn’t realize that if you pursue a graduate degree, it should be because you’ve already figured out that that’s what you want to do). Or they went back because they missed being in college and wanted to be a student again. All of those people that I know went back to school for those reasons dropped out, flunked out, or did earn their degrees but now can’t find work in the field.
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To be completely honest, I got an economics PhD because I didn’t really know what else to do… but it turns out an economics PhD is one of those degrees that, while perhaps not as valuable as an economics MA in terms of opportunity costs etc (since it takes 5-6 years instead of 1-2), opens a lot of doors and has a large return on investment. Even if my degree program hadn’t been able to indoctrinate me into becoming an economist with every fiber of my being.
(Luckily my husband still loves me despite the brainwashing. I suspect I was already a bit of an economist anyway with just the veneer of a sweet math major. Otherwise I would have gotten a much less marketable and more costly math PhD.)
I still don’t recommend people go to graduate school unless they’ve truly weighed the costs and benefits. But some degrees take less passion to make worthwhile than others in terms of trade-offs.
This offers a good heuristic:
http://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/how-much-to-pay-for-graduate-school/
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I am so glad someone did a post on a college education. I went to school originally to get a bachelor’s degree and continued on to get my master’s degree because my professor pushed and pushed me to believe that I would make $20,000 more a year by having my master’s degree. Well I graduated with my Master’s degree (in Sociology) 3 years ago and I am now just an office assistant making $30,000 a year, part time blogger, and freelance photographer. Not what I expected at all. Granted I regret getting my degree in something so broad but I am proud of my achievement.
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The large loan amount makes this degree almost prohibitive. know of any feasible loan options?
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I don’t get the appeal of an MFA, many writers come from self-educated backgrounds or other fields such as law like John Grisham and Emily Giffin. Both Emily and John have law degrees.
An MFA is more of a “nice to have” but its not required for writers. However the way to learn writing is to write a lot and get critiqued, there is no other way.
I honestly don’t like learning in college. I am very much an independent learner and I like that. With the internet and bookstores i don’t see the point of going to college unless you want to socialize or you need the resources of a university such as if you want to study science, medicine, law, physics, etc.
I’m glad for posts like this, I don’t want to make the mistake of getting a masters. As I don’t enjoy learning in school. Again I love learning independently. Always have.
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I agree with the peeps here that saying really technical fields are probably the only fields where a degree usually will pay for itself over time. Not knocking MBAs or MFAs, but I am a recruiter and I talk to a lot of MBAs and some MFAs that well, they make less than I do, and all I have is a GED and a couple of years of college.
Out of all the types of positions I have worked on, the only ones that I think degrees were really justified were certain engineering degrees and other technical degrees. Many states require a degree for someone to be an engineer, so if you don’t have it, you cannot act as an engineer, get the title, etc. And depending on the position, (usually entry level to 5 years exp)perhaps they really do need that basic college training as a base to really learn what they need to at a new job to be successful.
IT is another story – I don’t think it is really worthwhile to rule candidates out because they don’t have a degree if they have verifiable experience. But it is a way to filter folks because even though there are a lot of technical positions that are hard to fill (still a gap of folks with the right skills), there still are many that you get hundreds of candidates that apply for one position. So if 100 candidates all have the same level of experience, but 50 of them have degrees, well the employer may look at that 50 first.
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Interesting article! Getting higher education is not always a guarantee that you will make more money and it’s not for everyone.
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I did get my MFA in a field I thought would last me a while. (Graphic Design) then Mr. Jobs invented the ipad, then kindle came along with every other ebook and while my degree has opened the door for me. Print is costly and is in kind of an unknown trajectory. I am not making even 40K a year and guess what I am in my 50′s!
Do I regret my MFA, nope. But make sure someone else is paying for it. Scope out not only the requirements, but know ahead of time, this may not make big bucks. Figure out multiple avenues that your degree can take you and do NOT take out student loans.
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