This article is from new staff writer Honey Smith.
In my last article at Get Rich Slowly, I gave the background on my income and expenses. My husband’s income and expenses are a little more difficult to compile. For one, Jake left the life of a steady paycheck about a year ago in order to start his own business. This means that his income fluctuates, which of course we knew going in. It also means that the first few years he’s going to make much less than we hope he will eventually. We also knew that going in.
However, another major factor is that Jake’s idea of budgeting is “make so much money it doesn’t matter what you spend because you can afford it all.” When he started working at The Big Firm right out of law school and was making $90,000 a year, this was something that was more or less possible, especially since he was working 80+ hours a week and didn’t accumulate vacation or sick time. He didn’t have time for anything really spend-y. However, even though he’s now living the entrepreneur’s life, he’s resistant to budgeting. Earlier this week I sent him J.D.’s article about how to budget for an irregular income, and his response was:
This assumes that I actually have a budget…which I do not. I just make however much money I happen to make and pay whatever bills happen to fall due. Perhaps it’s not the best system, but it’s worked well so far.
I suspect that it’s going to take a major crisis or two of his own making before he comes to view things differently. One of the things I’ve learned over the last six years is that he almost never agrees with me the moment when I propose something; however, six months to a year later he’ll suggest it like it was his own idea. Go figure.
Since there’s nothing I can do at this point to convince him without violating the tenets of how to talk to your partner about money, I’m willing to wait. And to keep our finances separate, at a minimum, until we’ve reached a point where we are more in sync.
Even then, like J.D. and Kris, we may opt to continue to keep our finances separate. Interestingly, like J.D., Jake also grew up in a household where access to money was used as a weapon, and Jake is also the spender in our relationship. On the other hand, I don’t recall my parents ever having a single argument about money, and Jake referred to me yesterday as “the most frugal girl he’s ever dated.” In the meantime, though, since his situation does affect me and I have access to his Mint account, I have started compiling his data so it’s ready for him to work with when he comes on board.
Jake’s Irregular Expenses
Unless otherwise noted, the amount listed reflects just his share, even for things like auto insurance that will be joint going forward, since we haven’t combined finances yet. For some categories — like auto expenses, gifts, and healthcare — I’m assuming his costs are about the same as mine until I have data suggesting otherwise. These are annual numbers.
- Auto insurance: $840. This is the annual total; he pays $420 every six months in January and July. Similarly, in my recent post when I said my auto insurance was $500, that was also the annual total. I pay about $250 every six months.
- Auto expenses (repair/maintenance): $250
- Auto registration: $250. Quite a bit more than mine, since his car is 8 years newer (and also much nicer).
- Gifts: $1000
- Health care (copays, etc): $500. Numerous people said my $1000/year estimate was high, and when I double-checked, I realized that I’d double-counted my massage costs in both the irregular expenses category and the recurring monthly category. This means my actual irregular medical expenses last year were closer to $230. However, I think it’s best to estimate high in this category, and I know Jake has more prescriptions than I do.
- Vet expenses (pets): $2300. As noted in my previous breakdown, he would have paid half of this. All three of our pets had dentals last year, and one of the cats had an extraction while the other had some medical issues that had to be resolved before she could go under anesthesia. This category also includes grooming for the dog (a poodle), which runs about $50 per grooming.
- Mensa annual dues: $60
- Total: $4050
I am sure there are expenses I am missing, and will be filling in this category over time. For example, he recently spent $437.36 on his 30,000 mile check-up, so he’s over my initial estimate. However, not only should he not spend any more this year (knock on wood), I believe that’s the first major repair/maintenance since he bought the car in 2008. And, since he is only driving an average of 7,500 miles/year (and that average should be dropping even more now that he works from home), we fall into the category of “gentle drivers” and these costs should stay relatively low.
Jake’s Regular Expenses
Like the irregular expenses, the amounts listed below reflect only his share for things, even if they are a joint expense. Accordingly, the pet, grocery, Netflix, internet, rent, satellite cable, renters’ insurance, and electricity categories should be doubled if you want to get an idea of our joint/mutual costs. Please also note I solicited more information about his credit cards and have updated the information that originally appeared here. For his payments, however, I am going by what he has paid historically, not what the minimum payment actually is. These are monthly numbers.
- Gas, auto: $55
- Pet expenses: $50
- Grocery/household: $300
- Cell phone: $135 (Note: Jake uses his cell phone for the business, too, though I’m not sure if or how he separates it from his personal use.)
- Drycleaner: $40
- Netflix: $8
- Internet: $32.50
- Satellite cable: $37
- Renters’ insurance: $9
- Electricity: fluctuates throughout the year, in summer $100
- Withdrawal/cash: unknown, I suspect it varies widely
- Charity: $10 (Humane Society)
- Haircuts: $18
- Rent: $488
- Student loan 1: $180
- Student loan 2: $70
- Student loan 3: $176
- Student loan 4: $112
- Auto loan: $300
- Credit Card 1 ($12,697.64 @ 4.99% for life): $400
- Credit Card 2 ($2,202.87 @ 7.5% variable): $200. This is the one in my name.
- Credit Card 3 ($2,648.33 @ 3.99% for life): $200
- Credit Card 4 ($1,875 @ 0% until 3/6/13): $175. His share of the wedding expenses not covered in advance.
- Credit Card 5 ($8,175.51 @ 0% until 9/1/12): $125. A loan to the business to sign up for a year’s subscription to a client-referral service.
- Credit Card 6 ($1,350 @ 9.99%): $150. A loan to the business to cover his partner’s expenses when he was short.
- Total: $3,370.50
Jake’s Income
Here’s where it gets tricky. Since January he’s paid himself twice per month in amounts varying from $400 to $5,963.98. Based on his disbursements year-to-date, he can expect his gross salary for the year to be $47,577.42. On average, he’s grossing $3,659.80 per month.
On the surface, then, he’s making enough to pay his bills plus a little extra. However, I’m sure he’s spending it all (that is, I expect that eating out and miscellaneous purchases would take us to the limit of his gross salary). I guess this is what he means when he says “it’s worked well so far.” However, he hasn’t been paying quarterly estimated taxes. There are some structural changes to the business that took effect August 1st, and he’s been waiting for that to start his quarterly payments.
Based on my calculations (which I will freely admit are pure guesstimates based more or less on my own withholdings), he can expect to owe approximately $8,840 by the end of the year. This amount should include federal and state income tax, social security, and medicare. Based on his earnings to date, he should have $4,760 set aside for taxes as of this moment. Guess how much is in his savings account right now? $4,194.99. So he’s short of where he should be and since he had been thinking of that as his emergency fund, not his tax fund…well. You see the dilemma.
Where to Go From Here?
Regarding budgeting, my plan is to continue to suggest it and wait for him to catch on before deciding whether to combine finances. He’s never even calculated any of this himself, though I did share the projected tax information with him, which he appreciated. While he freely admits he has no idea when any specific bill is due and is always surprised when they arrive, he also doesn’t see any need to change the system when he’s never been late paying any bill and pays more than the minimum on all his credit cards.
On the positive side, his average disbursement to himself has doubled from about $1,000 to about $2,000, so his business is growing.
What would you do in my situation, if your goal was to end up like this couple? As I mentioned in the comments of my previous post, I refuse to become The Girl Who Only Says No or The Girl Who Only Talks About Money, because that will only poison the well for every aspect of our relationship, not just our finances.
I admire a lot of what J.D. and Kris said in their interview with Redbook, and they had a successful multi-decade marriage and a successful (and much rarer) amicable divorce. So please note I will only consider advice that is both relationship-affirming as well as financially astute!
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[diaclaimer] There is nothing constructive about my reply.
A part of me would like to see them fail and fail hard just so that we can read how they’re going to pick up the pieces. This “getting on the same page” bull is already old after two posts.
Put the gun to his head already! Withhold the south mouth, no play time on the bounce house…
Honey can probably start her very own blog on this situation alone. I’d follow the crap out of it. It’s much better than mindless reality television when I can read it and play a movie in my head like it’s a book.
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Does this qualify as the crudest comment ever posted on GRS? I can’t say I didn’t laugh, but still.
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Can’t. Stop. Reading. Want to. Feel guilty about it. But Can’t. Like others on here, this is just a train wreck and it makes me feel kind of dirty for reading.
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Honey,
I haven’t read through all the comments, so this might have been mentioned before, but I wonder if your husband could benefit from Ramit Sethi’s money-saving (and earning) strategies. Ramit shows you how to deal with the psychological blocks that keep most people from saving and earning more money. He eschews the idea of coming up with a budget since the word “budget” usually scares people and prevents them from even thinking about money. His book and blog tend to appeal to people in their twenties and early thirties (young, no children, etc.). His website is here: http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/home2/letter/ and, to continue living frugally, why not check the book out from the library?
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Hi, Michelle! I owned that book (and subscribe to his blog) – I L-O-V-E Ramit, though he’s much less sarcastic on NPR. I sent the book to a friend of mine, I’ll have to ask her if I can get it back. Thanks for the reminder!
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Alright, I haven’t had time to read through all the comments so forgive me if this has already been discussed.
I did the BMF for Honey’s expenses so here is the breakdown for Jake.
Needs: 37%
Includes: Rent, rental insurance, auto expenses (gas, maintenance, insurance), electricity, food, and healthcare
Wants: 19%
Includes: Annual dues, internet, cable, Netflix, Vet/pet expenses, gifts, cleaner, AAA dues, cash, hair, cell, and charity
Debt/Savings: 70%
Total: 126%
Income: Estimated 18% tax rate so I used a monthly amount of $3000.
Okay, your situation was bad enough with your total equating to 105%. Jake is spending WAY outside his means at this point. You want to get his attention? 70% of his income is going to debt repayment!!!!
The first thing you need to do is get Jake to stop using the credit cards for a month. Right now he either really thinks things are fine or he is lying (either to you or himself or both). Go a month without credit cards and really get a feel for how much you are going over each month. Based on my calculations, Jake is in the red by nearly $800 every month!
He is not actually paying down the cards (he can’t be – the math doesn’t support it). Just stop. Period.
The other thing to think about is how much he is paying in interest every month. Just in CC debt, he is paying about $1000 every year. This will go up to about $2000 each year when those 0% rates expire. I didn’t have the interest rates for the student loans and car loan, but let’s just say it probably over $5000 per year.
So recap: Jake is currently earning (on average) 36k net. He is spending 13k on needs, nearly 7k on wants, and a whooping 25k on debt, including around 6-7k on interest. Show him those numbers and ask him if he still thinks things will work themselves out. I think maybe he hasn’t wrapped his head around the situation and the cold hard numbers might be what he needs to see. If nothing else, maybe the cold, hard numbers are what you need to see.
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Thanks for the breakdown. After reading his attitude about income/bills/budget I was pretty sure he was making up any shortfalls with a CC.
Putting away the CC’s is really the first step in my mind. Honey admits to using them each month as well though it’s unclear if it’s covering any shortages.
But it’s a terrible habit for people in this situation. It’s a completely different mindset if you “need/want” to spend money and the choice is to use cash from savings or go without, rather than using a CC and figuring it out later.
My hub and I have a CC we carry, but it has a zero balance and before either of us uses it, we make sure the other is aware that we will and why. The last time it was used was for a long weekend rental car (most rental companies don’t let you use a debit…or didn’t used to) and even then we talked about it ahead of time.
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I appreciate the breakdown, too, it will be very helpful! I am not positive what his credit card habit has been though I know he prefers not to use them and pay debit for everything.
Eileen, I do have one credit card that I actually use for grocery store, etc., but it’s paid in full every month.
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I guess the question is, how are the two of you paying for monthly/yearly expenses that are greater than your income? If it’s not credit cards, then how?
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A couple of comments and a few suggestions. I have read some but not all of the comments on both your financial layout and your husbands, so I apologize if I’m repeating anything here.
First, congrats on your PhD, your marriage, and getting a job after the PhD. Those are all accomplishments to be proud of, so don’t let your debt load take away from those accomplishments. Now, some things to think about.
You’ve thought about how you and your husband spend your money. Now think about how you spend your time. Laura Vanderkam’s book 168 Hours gives one way to think of this; I’m sure there are others. But a useful categorization would be something along the lines of time spent that makes money, time spent that costs money, and neutral time that does neither. You want to maximize the time spent on the first and third category, and minimize the time spent on the second. This should be useful for your husband as well. My experience with people starting businesses is that they spend a lot of time building that business, because they are very interested in what they are doing and expect returns down the line. So I would expect that your husband is spending a lot of time on his law practice. If he isn’t, he may want to think about how he really feels about having his own practice beyond the benefits of not having his working time directed by a boss.
Eventually you need to make more money, in order to pay down your loans before you reach social security age. But I think your university job actually sounds like a pretty good one, and your salary pretty reasonable. It’s a sad fact that humanities PhDs don’t mean that you make lots of money with all that education. Hopefully you knew this going in. But, if your contract allows it, I would consider picking up some adjunct work, either classroom teaching in the evenings or online teaching. This would be something you can add to your CV, and is necessary if you think you might want to go TT at some point. This doesn’t pay a lot either, but it is work in your field that builds your CV. Other freelance writing work is also a good idea. Make sure your read what Donna Freedman has to say on the subject; she has a lot of good ideas and advice. But the above ideas all involve using your time on things you hopefully enjoy (since they are a significant part of getting the PhD) that also bring in some income. As a side benefit, time spent bringing in money isn’t generally spent spending it.
Mensa: I don’t know what the Mensa events involve, but given the vitriol directed at this, I have to assume they involve torturing puppies and drowning kittens. If you are able to do networking for yourself, to get additional writing gigs, then it may be worth it. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense.
Let your husband do his own networking. Presumably you chose a career in writing because it’s what you’re good at, and he chose to be a lawyer for the same reason. So you should each be working on your strengths. The days of the wife working for free on her husband’s career are over. You’ll get much better returns applying that time and energy to your own career.
On your marriage, don’t let your debt load become the sole driver of your interactions in your marriage. I’m sure your husband has many good qualities. Not everyone is good with money or interested in the details.
You mentioned that you were both animal lovers. Could you volunteer together at a shelter? This would give you time together doing an activity that’s meaningful and in line with your interests, costs little or nothing, and many shelters desperately need volunteers. I would also suggest walking as an activity that’s beneficial healthwise, costs little to nothing (you don’t need special shoes etc), and if your husband did this with you, would give you time to talk and connect. My husband and I often walk in the evenings after dinner, once it has cooled off, in lieu of watching TV. We get to know our neighborhood, and actually find that we feel more relaxed after walking than after “relaxing” in front of the TV.
Best wishes for your future, and good luck. Start with small steps, keep going, and with persistence you’ll get there. But you didn’t get the PhD or the debt in 6 mos, and so have have to expect that the process of getting out of debt will take time too.
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My advice to Honey:
When a person is in a tough situation, like climbing out of debt, it’s very difficult to reflect on one’s own experience since there is no hind sight. While I get that you are laying the ground work for your debt journey, the journey is unwritten and some of those with experience really do want to help you. I would recommend you hold your responses to comments to give yourself a chance to breathe, check in with yourself, and then respond. The tone of the comments has been a little too “reality tv” (meaning it seems too emotionally defensive, so it’s hard to see where you are truly coming from).
Keep an appreciative tone with the readers who take the time to respond, heck, even thank them, even if you don’t agree with them, as long as there is a sense they are thoughtfully trying to help you.
Never mention Mensa again (or phD for that matter), unless there’s a really good reason to do so (like “I cancelled Mensa membership is everybody happy now?!”, just kidding
. You want to put that misread comment about being smarter than most people to bed.
Thanks for listening.
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Honey,
I’m just dumbfounded. In a previous post of yours, you gave us your student loan amount…which is HUGE. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw your take home salary.
I am a stay at home mom. As a hobby, I have an eBay store. I make approximately the same amount of you per month. As I said before, I am just dumbfounded.
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What works for us, and I know has worked for other couples is to combine finances, and put one person in charge of them. He’s obviously focused on other things, so I can’t think of a reason why he would mind you managing everything.
It sounds like you’re worried about always saying no, but that isn’t what discussions should be like. It should really be about the trade offs. Especially if you two are doing reasonably well, there’s a lot you can do with the money.
If he needs spending cash, I’d try to give him a “fun” account with a monthly amount you guys agree to. I know for some couples, hobbies were budgeted in, and that was that. It frees you from having to manage that, and he’s free to spend it without worrying. Similarly, I’ve known moms to use the extra grocery money, when there was some, for a treat without having to worry over whether it would break the budget.
It seems you have it together. I thoroughly appreciate that my wife can tell me how much money we have sitting around for the next 2 months, pays all the bills, and she can tell me if we have X amount to get something. She also tells me not this month sometimes, or we can’t do Y if we do that. Which, if most of the time it is a yes, the occasional No isn’t an issue.
I don’t know how you bring the subject up with your husband. For me and my wife that was always the way we were going to do it. There’s just US, no her and me, no other options, till death do US part. She started doing the finances because she likes balancing the checkbook, and I’d rather goof off. And my credit score is amazing because she NEVER misses anything.
It’s also nice when we plan a trip, which for 7 of us costs a bit. She’ll have the savings going months in advance, and likely have half of it paid for, with the rest saved up, and we know we can just enjoy the time together, doing whatever, without fretting over if we’ll have to carry a balance for a month. It is very freeing for me, and I think that’d be what your husband would gain from giving the task to you. Plus you’d obviously have a better state of mind knowing what’s going up.
Just remember, it’s all an agreement between you two about where you want to go. You’re just managing to numbers, but the decisions are always between you two. When you see the numbers will go red if you add in another X amount for this, it’s pretty clear it’s not the right time to do that.
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