This article is from new staff writer Honey Smith.
“Be Responsible. Take responsibility for your actions.” It sounds simple, right? But what responsibility means to me has changed over the course of my life.
In fact, there are so many definitions of responsibility that Wikipedia doesn’t even have a definition listed on its main responsibility page! There are over fifteen types listed there with links to their respective pages (though to be fair, one is a song).
Since I have approximately $100,000 in student loan debt, I now find myself faced with the task of becoming financially responsible. But what does that mean? What type of responsibility do I face?
Responsibility as Legal Obligation
The law of obligation is the most straightforward. When I took out student loans, I entered into a legal contract wherein I got money up front and in returned assumed an obligation to pay it back at a later date. In some ways, student loans are a pretty onerous and inflexible responsibility because they can’t be discharged in bankruptcy.
However, federal student loans student loans are actually one of the most flexible types of debt to have because there are so many types of repayment plans. As long as you’re communicating with your lender in good faith, it should be possible to stay in good standing.
You can opt for the standard repayment (10 years) which results in less interest paid. You can opt for the extended repayment (25 years) which results in a smaller monthly payment. You can opt for graduated repayment, so that you’re making smaller payments when you’re just starting out in your career.
You can also opt for income based repayment if you have a partial financial hardship. This can help you live within the confines of the balanced money formula even with a high amount of debt. This is because under IBR, repayment is capped at 15% of discretionary income.
There are actually even more options, and you’re legally entitled to any of them if you meet the criteria. This enables you to choose the best fit for your situation. Typically, you can switch between payment plans as your situation changes. Additionally, after 25 years the remaining balance is forgiven (though the forgiven portion of the balance may be taxed as income).
Responsibility as Moral Obligation
This definition assumes that responsibility is a matter of honor or duty. According to this definition, “When someone recognizes a duty, that person theoretically commits themself to its fulfillment without considering their own self-interest.”
Moral responsibility typically assumes that individuals are in possession of free will and have a high degree of agency. Someone subscribing to the idea of moral responsibility might conclude that the moral thing to do is to pay off all individually acquired debts (1) in full, and (2) as quickly as possible – even if doing so has a negative impact on one’s quality of life.
Thus, even though someone might be legally entitled to income based repayment, such a choice would be considered unethical because society ends up shouldering some of the individual borrower’s burden.
Social Responsibility
Social responsibility assumes that there is a tradeoff between economic and social benefit, and tries to find balance/equilibrium between the two. For example, higher levels of education are associated with longer life. Additionally, more educated people are typically healthier and less likely to participate in criminal activity, especially violent crime.
A society might consider shouldering some of the costs of individuals’ higher education to be an acceptable tradeoff. A long, healthy life in a safe environment is a tremendous benefit to citizens. The health problems and crime associated with a less educated citizenry might cost more than education would. In that case, society might even be able to recoup some or all of the cost of providing that education.
Are the tradeoffs reached by any particular society on a given issue necessarily optimal? I am not sure that can ever be known for sure. Society is complicated, and it’s impossible for any individual to see the entire picture.
For example, lots of people think the American way of debt is not healthy. However, if it’s a social construct, is society responsible for changing it? Does social responsibility lead to a diffusion of responsibility where we all complain but no one works to change things?
Food for Thought
Responsibility is a powerful concept. How do you determine when and where to draw the line?
- How do you negotiate responsibility and family?
- Should we be investing responsibly?
- What if you’re willing to accept the consequences of failing to meet your responsibilities, like walking away from a bad mortgage?
- How does death impact your responsibilities?
Human beings are a diverse lot, so there are many definitions of responsibility out there. What do you do when someone else’s idea of responsibility is different than yours? Is one school of thought on responsibility more or less valid than another? If so, who gets to make that determination?
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In the area of personal money management, there are two broad groups of responsibility:
The first is external – making payments on time, paying off debt, making sure that you don’t overcommit, etc.
The second is internal: what do I do with all the money that’s left over after my external responsibilities have been taken care of?
It may sound weird, but many people fear the second kind. These are the people who think of their financial lives in terms of payments. For example, when their car loan is paid off, they simply feel more comfortable getting a new car. They understand “payments.” To them that’s easier than trying to figure out what to do with that “extra money.”
We experienced it when the day arrived that all our debts were paid off. That’s when it dawned on us: when this happens, your very identity changes. You go from a debtor to an investor. And there really isn’t any middle ground.
We all think we’d like to be free from our debt, but are we prepared for life after debt? Many lottery winner stories remind us this isn’t a trivial issue.
Being a responsible debtor is tough. Nevertheless, most people have this responsibility figured out.
Being a responsible investor, though, is definitely tougher. There is work involved, as well as stepping outside of your comfort zone. But there is no such thing as totally passive investing. Neither is there totally risk free investing. You have to get involved in some way.
And that’s the tough one. With external responsibility there are collectors and lawyers who come after you when you slack off. With internal responsibility, though, there’s nobody to police you… except your future.
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What a great take on this, and one I hadn’t thought of (probably because I won’t be at that point for awhile yet). Very insightful!
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Honey, one issue I have with your blog posts is that they seem to ask questions rather than answer them. On some level, I think it’s a little unfair/unethical that the comments section is providing more financial advice than the content of your own posts. And this is not said to minimize your perspective as someone at the beginning of their financial path, but . . . it just seems sloppy to ask a bunch of questions based on what you found on Wikipedia. Is Wikipedia really your moral compass?
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In a couple of months I will go from debtor to investor. I would like to see some articles from people who made this transition successfully.
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I think the vast differences in the interpretation of responsibility is to blame for the current economic state. In the UK, a lot of people will never fully pay of their student loan, living with the minimum payments which leads to the loan being cancelled after a number of years
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I recall you mentioned about three weeks ago in a comment on your second article (where you articulated your husband’s financial info and disclosed all the debt you guys had to pay off with the money you earned) that you were going to post an article expounding all the changes you and your husband were making to pay off your debt or reduce the hemorrage of your monthly earned income on your daily expenses. Instead we’ve gotten two weeks of more navel gazing. I don’t care about your detailed analysis of responsibility as much as I care about you taking care of your own mess. So please do that first – show us you’re actually DOING something about your mountain of debt – THEN start a philosophy club.
And now that i’ve gotten that off my chest….I guess I should make a point to not read anymore of your articles, because obviously they bother me beyond all reasonable belief!
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Jeez, I would hardly call this navel gazing. I really found this article to be thought provoking, especially the sociological argument of the collateral benefits of educational debt forgiveness.
“Hey guys, I sent my monthly student loan payment, plus $100 towards principal cause I didn’t get a massage this month,” would be a boring article to me.
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Right. People’s emotional desire to see Honey self-flagellate does not make for interesting blog reading.
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Also, there are many people trying to understand their options with regards to student loans. This post provides information that others can use, outside of Honey’s personal narrative.
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Absolutely agreed. I don’t want to read posts about Honey’s personal progress solely in tactical details. Much more interesting to have a more widely applicable.
Having said that, I’d be interested to then hear what Honey truly decides responsibility means to her. How does that frame what she then decides to do? Let’s look at the broader issues, but then apply them personally.
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That’s really what I felt this article was missing. There was musing about different definitions, and questions about what readers feel fiscal responsibility is, but no real conclusion about how Honey sees herself or what she decided responsibility meant to her. Without that, I feel there just isn’t much content to this article.
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We have established Honey’s writing skills, proving that she did learn SOMETHING for all that time in school.
But, again, we have a “compare and contrast” essay for the readers rather than any information about actual , real-world, real-time progress in Honey’s financial life.
The initial posts made me angry and frustrated. Now I am simply bored…
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I completely agree with Amy. I would much rather take a look at the practical side of Honey working towards killing her humongous debt and helping her husband have a better grasp on what it is to design a budget and stick to it.
Honey, in the words of Mr. Money Mustache, YOUR DEBT IS AN EMERGENCY! You do not have time to wax philosophical. Apparently you didn’t get the memo.
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Dealing with a financial emergency and taking time to understand the thinking that got you there are not mutually exclusive. When did people on GRS get so nasty? I thought we encouraged people to do BOTH?
I was also one of the early critics of Honey’s first article, but I’ve enjoyed hearing about what got her there, especially since I am also working off a mountain of student debt and its a good reminder of where I came from.
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Everybody loves a villain — what would Dallas have been without JR? What better villain for a PF blog than an airhead who blithely waxes philosophical about whether she’s actually responsible for over $100,000 in debt? Thanks for giving us someone we love to hate, JD!
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That’s one of those things that sounds nice but doesn’t actually mean anything. I mean, maybe it’s motivational for certain people but it’s also pretty hollow. Your debt is something you should be informed and contemplative about, and that you should have a plan for addressing. It’s not something that you need to flail about constantly, or playact terror and panic about, or beat yourself up about. Nor is it something that you need to constantly emphasize the seriousness of to outsiders. It’s . . . a thing. That you should deal with. It’s more or less pressing depending on your circumstances, the type of debt, and what else is going on in your life. Feigned histrionics and capslocks slogans about it just aren’t useful.
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“Your debt is an emergency” is not feigned histrionics. It is the title of a brilliant post by Mr. Money Mustache, a PF blogger and early retiree (age 38) who’s got it going on financially and lives in alignment with his non-consumer values. Check it out. We can all learn from him.
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I got that it was a quote from a blogger. I still think it’s ridiculously histrionic. I don’t really care how said blogger lives his life; good for him having it together and good for people who are inspired by him. I still don’t think his philosophy is particularly useful.
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Here is the MMM post, for posterity: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/18/news-flash-your-debt-is-an-emergency/
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Wow, I read the article on MMM about debt. Fascinating. Never looked at debt that way. Biblical even. If only the govt. looked at debt that way.
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There is nothing histrionic about saying “your debt is an emergency” as this is truly how I feel people should perceive their debt. Somehow, over the last say, 60 years or so, it became increasingly ‘normal’ to take on debt. This concept of maintaining a normal quality of life by taking on debt grew in popularity to the point that it is now assumed that every adult person should carry “healthy debt” to help them on their way to achieving a typical north american lifestyle.
The way we look at debt as normal baffles me. It is a socially accepted way to live beyond your means. Even many financial advisors do not consider a mortgage to be a part of your ‘debt’. People who do not carry any consumer debt (outside of a mortgage) proudly refer to themselves as “Debt-free!!!” when in reality they may owe hundreds of thousands of dollars on the roof over their heads.
People who are of retirement age are putting off their retirement so that they can pay off their debts. This is all because they chose to take on massive debt loads (remember that “healthy debt” I mentioned?), not treat their debt as an emergency, and are then left scratching their heads trying to figure out how to pay for their overconsumption now that they are in their golden years.
I am tired of reading financial blogs or columns that make people who are sinking in debt feel better about their situation. “Oh, your mortgage isn’t really debt!”, or “Oh that HELOC is just ‘healthy’ debt, no worries.” I think many of us need a serious reality check, and I think its time we rolled up our sleeves and got to work, instead of pontificating on the philosophical hows, whys and wherefores of amassing debt.
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And if you spend the next twenty years in panic mode dealing with your “debt emergency” your life will revolve around waiting.
Sure, it would be nice if everyone could save up for twenty years, and then buy a home in their mid to late forties. Two bedroom apartments are great for raising three or more kids.
Then again, speaking of kids, you should save until you can afford them, likely in your fifties. Takes care of the apartment issue and modern medicine can see to that, right?
Then it’s great getting that beat to heck clunker and having your AARP aged wife and children relying on it for long commutes. No worries.
Or:
Maybe you buy a reasonable home in your late twenties and maybe even upgrade in your mid thirties to a more comfortable home via debt, realizing after ten years a mortgage and maintenance payments are below the rent for that two bedroom apartment in your area and planning to have no mortgage in retirement.
Maybe you buy a newer, more reliable car with a three or four year loan, and via proper maintenance you keep it ten plus years.
Life is risk and life isn’t clean. You take on debt based on expectations. Expectations that you can make payments for so many years, be it one, four, or thirty years. But not taking on debt is also risk. You are betting your today on living well in the future. Yet you may never reach that future since you are still prey to all the plagues that someone who took on debt is subject to, illness, job loss, divorce, etc. On the one hand you risk reaching for what you want and possibly falling back. On the other you risk never getting anything you want.
The problem always lays in the extremes. Overreaching for wants you can’t honestly afford, or living like a miser in fear that what little you have is always at risk. Most people in the middle, despite the hype of the media and the fear it’s spreading in the name of making news, will do fine.
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You’re over-thinking this. Where I come from is with an example of my father – a hard-working, very wealthy man – with a grade 9 education.
When one of my brothers racked up a bunch of debts to various businesses in the community where my parents had lived for 50 years and had “financial hardship” (mostly out of laziness), my father went around and paid those debts off (probably more than the amount of your student loans). Why did he do that since he had no legal obligation? As he said at the time “I have to live in this community and those people are my neighbours – and my son has done this.”
It’s called character. Because you don’t have to sleep with society but you should be able to sleep with yourself.
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An excellent example of how we might feel responsible to our family (and our community) even in circumstances where we are not legally responsible for something. Your father sounds like an amazing guy!
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I wish my mom’s brother felt this same sense of responsibility. His daughter ripped my dad off for $18,000 and he never made any effort to either repay it or work with his daughter to repay it. It significantly reduced my esteem of him that’s for sure.
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I’m not sure if I understand what this article is about. You borrowed over $100,000. You are responsible for paying it back. Writing an article detailing different philosophies on debt repayment is not going to change that. Eventually you will probably have to start writing about the actual progress that you are making or people will lose interest.
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I agree. The section on social responsibility hit me the wrong way. I felt like it was saying “It’s not my fault I’m in so much debt – the government should pay for more of students’ tuition costs!”
Sure, we can debate whether governments should contribute more towards the cost of education — but to what end? The point is that students have to make decisions based on the system they’re dealing with, not a system they think should exist.
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For the record, my comment was not an attack on Honey — though re-reading it I realize it inadvertently came across that way. I was reacting to the attitude in general that I see too much of in the news — especially from corporations, not just individuals.
Yes, it would be nice if the government did a better job of x – but until we can get the government to fix x, we have to be responsible for our own choices.
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Neither was mine! That is the problem with the written word. It can be interpreted many ways based on the tone with which it was read.
I really do hope that the author gets a handle on her debt…. I just don’t think that nodding and agreeing with everything she says will be particularly helpful to her.
The good news is that if she were to choose a job that paid better she could be repaying debt at a rapid pace. And she has a higher earning potential to begin with because of her advanced education. Personally, I hope this ends in a success story but I hope it’s not when I’m 90.
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I have some issues with some things she wrote, but the question of moral or legal responsibility is a serious one. If she can pay the minimum payment for 25 years and have the balance discharged should she? It’s perfectly legal but many would say it is wrong. Same thing with declaring bankrupcy or walking away from a mortgage, it is all legal but I still don’t think it is right as long as you have a way of paying..
It is a relevant question, but it just wasn’t articulated very well, especially the social responsibility section.
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GRS is fun. It’s fluffy. It’s a good thing to read when the head is still groggy and you’re sipping the morning joe. There are plenty of blogs with kick ya in the a#$ content fronted by intellectual elites and advanced followers. Honey is a beginner. She’s the anti-J.D. I think that’s part of the problem for some. She definitely subscribes to the tenant that the path out of debt is different for everyone.
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I do think JD might have gotten someone else to write on this particular topic. All those who are enjoying castigating Honey just aren’t going to think about this post at all, because Honey wrote it.
I, personally, have paid off my student loan debts and many others. However, people do need to stop and think about what their feelings of responsibility are for different kinds of debts and bills. For instance, some people regard debts owed to other humans vs. corporations as more urgent. Others consider the raising of interest rates to be perfectly reasonable while finding the raising of property taxes morally repugnant.
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I don’t know how to conceptualize this in a more general form at this hour, but to me, being financially responsible means at the most basic that I own my decisions and their consequences. Being responsible goes hand to hand with being free. If I am free to choose, then I am also responsible for my choices.
No more blaming others, the government, the credit card companies, society, the one percenters, my upbringing, corporations, advertisers, predatory lenders, mainstream culture, herd mentality, the Joneses, or anybody else.
Being responsible, to me, doesn’t mean that I don’t make mistakes– everybody makes mistakes, and that doesn’t automatically make people “irresponsible”. Being responsible means I own those mistakes and I fully accept and embrace the consequences, whatever they may be, and I am the one who has to deal with them.
In other words I suppose that being responsible, to me, means saying “yes” to life and reality, and making a commitment to live in said reality and not hide from it. And that includes being aware that there are swindlers and thieves and jackals who are out to get us, of course.
How much risk you are willing to assume is a slightly different story than responsibility itself. People often speak of safe moves as “responsible” and risky decisions as “irresponsible”, but I don’t think that’s responsibility per se.
What happens is that carelessness is often a symptom of irresponsibility (of not wanting to own the consequences of one’s decisions), and carefulness a symptom of its opposite, and so the notions get conflated, but they are not exactly the same. Because ultimately we all have to be able to assume some level of risk– but the responsible person says “I own this” and the irresponsible one says “they made me do it.”
This however also applies to creditors– if a creditor lends money to someone they know can’t pay, they have to live with the consequences of their bad investments. There is also risk and responsibility on the lending side– but that’s their problem, not yours. You are responsible for your decisions, and the next person for their own, but we can’t use other people’s bad decisions as an excuse for our own.
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I have been stewing over this comment for DAYS– came up in the context of another article but it actually works better here.
Financial responsibility, for me, means doing the legwork and taking care of your own financial education, at least as it pertains to the major political decisions that are/will be impacting your finances.
It was in the context of JD proposing a series on the upcoming healthcare changes, and someone commented that they wanted to see this academic’s political biases stated straight up, as well as a political viewpoint from each side, so they could get an unbiased answer.
In short: no, that’s not how it works. Picking and choosing from two different political viewpoints isn’t going to get you an unbiased answer, it’s going to get you an answer with it’s biases’ picked and chosen (for lack of a more elegant way to put it).
If you really want an unbiased answer to see major political decisions that willl have an impact, one way or another, on your finances, then you need to take some responsibility, and read the actual bill(s). Read them as they are written, not as they are fed to you by someone else.
They are publicly available online. Yes, they are dense, both in vocabulary and in length, and yes, they take time that most of us don’t feel that we have. But they are fundamentally important. they will impact your personal and your family’s financial life. They will impact the financial life of people all over the world.
Being informed about them is part of your responsibility to society and a major part of your financial and moral responsibilities to yourself.
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I… I see this as a major headache but… YOU’RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Maybe. Maybe? I’ve read Joyce’s Ulysses… I supposed I can handle the law. Ha ha ha, owwww… I am having advanced headaches, but I gratefully accept your challenge. Because this was a blind spot for me and you are absolutely right.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:1:./temp/~c111AM3Moj::
Study group, anyone?
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Its not possible unless you make it your full time job, how many thousands of bills are brought to the table in a year. Many of which are doomed to failure and are just for show. Even if you just focus on the major ones, they are typically 100′s of pages long and usually there is pork in there somewhere. I tend to focus on articles that pull the bills apart that specifically focus on the facts and how it will impact country regardless of the party that initiated the bill. There are still journalists that can stay neutral even though its harder than ever. If I have questions than I go an access the bill to review a specific component. I mean just as an example try and go read the ACA, its ludicrous at 974 pages and you can’t skip all the goodies at the end, so if you are going to read these bills good luck with that. Its not that I disagree in an ideal world we could do that but most of us have to rely on a 3rd-party source. Its why I typically try to get news info from left, right, and center to get different viewpoints since I fall in the center.
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You just had to say that to make me wanna do it so much more, didn’t you?
(we’re not talking about “thousands of bills” here but the ACA specifically)
btw the original link i posted is expired, this one is more definitive:
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/
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I have to agree with mike… Yes, it’s possible to find politically-neutral sources out there to put bills into layman’s terms.
However, the fact that bills are 100s of pages long, and full of legalese is why we have a representative republic as a government and are NOT a true democracy.
What people need to do (to go back to the OP’s advice), is to ignore the mudslinging ads, go out to the .gov website of your choice (city, county, state & federal level), and read about how your elected officials have handled issues that have a direct impact on your life. Most of them put the current issues/candidates (and their voting records) in layman’s terms online.
If your life got worse as a result of an elected official’s choice/vote, then do your homework and vote FOR someone else who more closely aligns with your financial or social values. (Hint: There are almost always more than two candidates for any given office – including POTUS… we are not limited to whoever is making headlines.)
I think part of the problem with America today is that we tend to vote AGAINST people, instead of voting FOR people. Elections are not horse races…
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Reading the bill directly might not help you have a better, less biased understanding of the bill. The language with which the bill is written is heavily coded/biased so without detailed knowledge an element that sounds good in the bill, in practice makes no sense/plays to special interests. Sometimes, looking at the information pulled together from other sources can help you understand the bias in the original language. If you have the time to check the language of a bill, the special interests writers/sponsers of the bill, existing laws and regs that affect the bill, etc by all means, but don’t condemn other people for using their noggin’s to evaluate secondary sources as well.
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A lot of moral responsibility revolves around family. Making sure they’re taken care of no matter what happens. Moral responsibility to the government on student loans is a distant second as far as I’m concerned. There I would feel only a legal obligation.
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This puzzles me:
“A society might consider shouldering some of the costs of individuals’ higher education to be an acceptable tradeoff.”
This is so pie in the sky vague. Define “higher education”. Define “acceptable tradeoff”. Who gets to be the “individuals”?
If this article wasn’t written by someone 100k in debt, it might be somewhat interesting. But since it was written by someone with 100k of student loans, it sounds pretty odd. The subtext reads like a bunch of rationalization of your choices….and a rationalization for when the rest of us get shouldered with the burden of loan balances.
BTW. Has Honey ever stated if she and Jake plan to pay the loans back in full, or just wait till they hit 25 years?
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You say, “Define “higher education”. Define “acceptable tradeoff”. Who gets to be the “individuals”?”
That is exactly my point! What do these things mean? Who gets to decide them?
I qualify for IBR, though I’m currently on a plan that will have me pay the loans off in full. I haven’t decided whether IBR is something I feel comfortable with.
It occurs to me that in some ways, IBR may be the best plan in terms of benefitting the taxpayers, since it gives taxpayers the benefit of all that interest income that they wouldn’t see under the other plans. I’m not sure IBR has been around long enough to have any idea of the percentage of an individual’s principal that will actually end up being forgiven. It’s definitely a trade-off that society made in advance with the ACTUAL consequences being a relative unknown.
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It’s called personal responsibility and accountability. You define it for yourself.
I was surprised at another staff writer who talked about buying organic this and that while also mentioning trying to get out from under the balance from a creditor because they’d ‘long since made their money’ from selling their debt to collections. I called BS on that too.
You are married to an attorney, you have advanced degrees. I see no reason that any loan forgiveness should be available to anyone unless there is *clear* hardship.
What’s the saying about something being difficult to define but knowing it when I see it.
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I totally agree…unless Honey or her husband find themselves with severe medical issues, disability due to accident or mental health problems, or have a severely disabled child…they need to get their a$$es in gear and pony up.
Oh…..and stop playing mind games or feigning victimhood.
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But isn’t it difficult to entirely place blame on a young, albeit intelligent, individual who amasses too much student loan debt? Having many, most, or even ALL of us here in the US decided that our financial aid system, our education system, and our healthcare system are broken?
The universities put a tuition number out there; the consumer decides whether it seems like a fair trade-off; the banks and the fed decide whether to take the risk of lending the money. It’s like playing with a stacked deck. But who really holds the cards?
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The mental gymnastics Honey avails herself of in this article is insulting and infuriating.
The different incantations of responsibility is an interesting topic but not in the context of obfuscating the real issue, you have over $100K of debt and it is not apparent that you are making any substantive progress with it.
While that’s not a crime, if you don’t believe your debt is a problem or your responsibility then why did you apply to become a writer at GRS?
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I always comment first, and then read the comments, so I am not unduly influenced by others. And I always feel a little guilty leaving negative feedback, but now that I have read the comments, I feel a little bit better.
It sounds like a lot of us are having similar reactions to this post. If it weren’t for the fact that we have to be subjected to that rotating ad in the right margin, I wouldn’t feel entitled to complain about a GRS post, but in terms of the advertising onslaught that now accompanies this content, we are in essence “paying” to read and learn here.
I expect better content from GRS (so sorry, guys, but it’s the truth) and I like my content proof-read, as well.
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You are not in ANY way, shape or form “paying” for this article, that’s taking things a bit far. GRS writers didn’t used to be so entitled/nasty. If you don’t like her articles, don’t read them. Each author has their own perspective, if you don’t like this one, there are many others. Good grief, people need to leave Honey alone already.
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If we’ve used the links that include affiliate programs, we actually are. (and I have)
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” The federal government will pay accrued interest for up to three years if your monthly repayment doesn’t cover it.”
The federal government gets its money from US tax payers. So, US tax payers will pay your interest from your loans.
As a tax payer (I’m in the 49%) I wish you would not have gone to school if it’s something that I end up paying for.
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We all pay taxes for things that we would prefer not to. I’d rather pay taxes that go to help educate young people than to pay for drone attacks or destroying countries.
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Keep in mind, that with this author, the student loans are not for an undergraduate degree. In a prior post, she said that she graduated from college debt free. Her loans were for her advanced degrees.
I agree that an educated society is a good thing. The article she linked doesn’t talk about the difference between people with college degrees and masters and phds as far as it pertains to their ‘uneducated’ burden on society.
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I was definitely feeling that this topic had come up recently, but I had forgotten that it was the same author. This makes me even more frustrated with this post. (Sorry, Honey. The last one was great.)
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@Sam,
National defense is actually a function of the US federal government. I don’t think they spend the money wisely, but that’s not the issue here.
Paying for Honey’s debts is not mentioned in the US Constitution.
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Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution:
“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States”
It depends on what you feel “general welfare” encompasses. For me, general welfare includes the health and education of our citizens.
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@EMH — perhaps it’s a matter of degree? no pun intended! It’s not like the U.S. government isn’t paying anything towards people’s post-secondary education — but how much should it pay? Does it owe people a “free” undergraduate degree? Or a Masters? A PhD?
I have no answers – It just depends on where you draw the line. Governments don’t seem to say “we’re going to fully fund x or not fund it at all.” There’s always a question of “how much” — and that’s a moving target.
Honey’s situation is unique because she completed her undergraduate degree debt-free, but ran into serious debt earning graduate degrees for a career she decided not to go in to. I’m not sure it’s wise to use her as an exemplar of the failure of U.S. academic funding.
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The part of this post that started me thinking was … “the health problems/crime associated with the less educated citizenery…” and the idea that that may offset the student loan forgivenss somehow.. Of course that would never be trackable. It then made me think of the military and my job and how the veterans I work with have disabilities and it becomes a major stretch for some of them to attain a degree in their 40s.. and become qualified to find a suitable career. It makes me wish we had an education system that was geared to the actual labor market and HS students were given way more vocational guidance. For that matter that we had more viable skilled trades in the US. Not everyone should have to go to a 4 year college to be successful and be able to support themselves and maybe even a family. Not everyone can. I believe our systems are outdated and college is overpriced. I am scared to death of my daughter going into debt for her college. I can’t go into debt for her, I am still paying off my own loans, and I HAD to get a grad degree to make a livable wage (rehabilitation counseling)
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Move along now, nothing to see here.
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I look at financial responsiblity as a big deal, and really a part of a broader practice of being personally accountable for one’s own actions and life. Folks that take on this personal accountability, instead of relying on others or making excuses, tend to be more successful overall. Based on what I’ve seen:)
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Being responsible is pretty simple.
Don’t take more debt than you can afford. Pay what you owe.
There, I defined it!
You can Google search “responsibility” all you want, but learning and living the definition is pretty darn easy.
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YES!
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Is it always that simple for everyone? I’m pretty lucky in that I can afford my monthly payments and I’m making progress on my debts.
I analyzed responsibility in terms of student loans in this post, and since higher education is a luxury it’s easy to judge. But it seems there are other situations – medical debt, people who can’t afford to eat – where this interpretation lacks compassion.
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Honey, do you have medical debts that you have not disclosed? I think it would be helpful to stay on topic and not use hypothetical situations to justify your particular situation or thought processes.
You asked if it was that simple for everyone. I’m sure it’s not that simple for *everyone,* but it really is for some people. Maybe it is an old school thought process, but I feel that I should repay every cent that I have borrowed.
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Exactly. When the poster above said “don’t take on debt you can’t afford” — who would think that was meant to include medical expenses?
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I’m not getting it either. You should repay your debts! Seems like the author is trying to rationalize not repaying?
On the other hand this post sure has gotten a lot of reaction, similar to an earlier post.
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I know your sole goal is to rationalize your irresponsible behavior; I get it. But no one is buying into it but yourself. Borrowing more than you can afford and frittering money away on massages and hair salons is irresponsible; struggling to pay back loans for cancer treatments is not. I don’t need to belong to Mensa to figure that out.
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Yes, it is.
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Well, what kind of medical debt? Is it voluntary or involuntary?
Breast implants: A choice. Pay it.
Getting shot in a movie theater: Not a choice. Pay what you can, work out a payment plan, etc.
Now, before you try to drag this even more off-topic by saying that someone might really need breast implants because of cancer for their own mental health, let’s get back to Honey Smith’s Massive Debt Load.
There was no need for your PhD. None.
You willingly signed up for it. It doesn’t matter if the people in academia pulled you into their bosom. It doesn’t matter if you’re now not using it. It doesn’t matter if you had no idea how much debt it would actually be because nobody talked to you about debt.
Your PhD was completely a lifestyle choice. (Even though you try to argue societal benefits of an educated society, you got an education with no debt. Or did you forget about that?)
Quit pontificating, get off your ass, start eating beans and rice, rice and beans, start delivering some pizzas and pay it off.
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Less thinking, more doing, please.
When I was paying down my $63,000 law school debt 16 years ago, I made a stack of pre-addressed, stamped envelopes and sent in a check every week or two on top of my scheduled payments. Sometimes it was $15, sometimes it was $150 or more, but those little bits added up. The pre-addressed envelopes made it easy to make an impulse payment, like when I had a particularly bad day at work or when I decided to skip a dinner out. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. Stop philosophizing and DO SOMETHING.
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We did the same thing with Mr. Sam’s MBA student loans, but all electronically. I would snow flake any time we had “extra” money available and had that loan killed in 7 mos. which was at $27,000+.
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Great advice!
I do something similar with my credit card payments (my biggest financial goal right now is to get out of consumer debt). My checking account and credit card are conveniently through the same bank so I can easily transfer $15 here, $50 there…those impulse payments really add up! It’s also a good way of preventing me from spend $5 at Starbucks here and $8 at Chipotle there because I don’t have a ton of extra cash sitting around in my checking account.
P.S. Your advice is the type of thing I was hoping to read in Honey’s article. Although this issue of defining “responsibility” has merit, I found the discussion a bit of a yawn and not very helpful since I’m looking for practical tips.
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“Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.”
This is one of my favorite sayings.
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Cara,
I have copied your quote and have it taped to my desk at home for inspiration. I have a second mortgage for around that amount that I’ve been mostly ignoring (after all, I get that great interest deduction on my taxes and mortgage debt isn’t “bad,” right? ) and this is just the sort of kick I need to move forward.
Thank you!
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I’ll post my own conflict on this. We have investments properties in Florida, at least one of those properties is not worth even half of what we paid for it.
I have a good friend who is strategically defaulting on her home while she is renting it out, collecting rent, and she owns two horses. She is fighting the foreclosure in the courts and is expecting that eventually the lender will sell the home back to her at a much better deal, meaning they will cut the principal and the term of the loan and the interest rate.
We are also in the middle of paying to refinance our home to a 2.75% loan and a 15 year term, she might end up with an interest rate similar to mine without paying to refinance and without paying her mortgage for two years (while collecting rent from a tenant).
I think what she is doing is wrong on so many levels and her actions and the actions of others like her (those that can pay their mortgage but now want a better deal) cost me and others like me money. We don’t talk about it because when we do I lecture her and argue with her.
She wonders why I don’t walk away from at least one of our investment properties to try and get a better deal from the bank. We probably could but won’t, because I don’t want to ruin my credit, I don’t want to put my professional license at risk and because it was an investment, we made a decision to invest in real estate and there was risk associated with that investment. Right now we have tenants who are paying the carrying costs so we are not losing money.
As for Honey’s post, I do think we as a society should be funding higher education at a greater rate and loans should be forgiven if people go into public interest work. We do, all, as a society benefit from an educated population.
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This. Is why I find this blog so compelling. Things are complex. Issues are not black and white.
In the past I have depended on taxpayers to help finance my house using the mortgage tax deduction, help finance my family using the child care credit, help finance my children’s education using education tax credits. (Thanks!)
In return I pay property taxes, my children are semi-responsible adults and they both have jobs in their field. (Thanks again!)
Discussions about responsibility and accountability are important and seem to be sadly lacking in public discourse.
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Wow. I don’t even know where to begin with this post — it wasn’t what I was expected.
This isn’t targeted at Honey, but here is what I think it means to be financially responsible or not.
Responsible:
- avoiding “bad debt” whenever possible.
- knowing what you’re getting in to when you take on debt, make an investment, etc.
- be willing to accept the consequences of your decisions. (i.e. accepting the risks, planning to meet your obligations)
- make saving for the future a priority.
- being able to see yourself through an emergency.
- understanding how your money is spent and invested. (conscious spending, budgeting, etc.)
- paying your bills.
- repaying your debt (preferably as soon as possible).
- accepting your mistakes and doing something to fix them.
- being willing and able to make sacrifices to meet your goals/obligations.
Irresponsible:
- taking on more debt than you can handle, especially for things you don’t need.
- expecting someone else to bail you out.
- blaming other people for your choices.
- not paying your bills or your debt (unless there are extenuating circumstances).
- not saving because you’re paying for luxuries.
- making excuses, not sacrifices.
(These items no particular order — please feel free to add or debate!)
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A lot of people make money off of debt in this country. One of the factors in the housing crisis was big banks making money off of bad loans. Loans that they should not have made. People are so quick to judge individuals who took out those bad loans but shouldn’t the banks be equally responsible for loaning money to someone who they knew in all likelihood wouldn’t be able to pay it back?
I feel the same way when people talk about the obesity crisis in this country. There are companies who make a lot of money selling junk food or selling weight loss methods. That means these major companies that make money off of individual’s irresponsibility have a big incentive to keep things the way they are. If you think they aren’t doing everything they can to prevent things from changing, then you are fooling yourself.
I don’t think this absolves anyone of their personal responsibility but I think it is two sides of the same coin. It doesn’t matter how responsible individuals are, if we let major corporations continue to take advantage, there will continue to be a debt problem.
If we really want to solve the problem of debt, we have to address both sides of the issue not just continue to blame individuals.
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Today, I can go into a bank and get a loan for a $2 MM property, but I won’t because although on paper I could afford it, I know I don’t want to live on mac ‘n’ cheese for 25 years and if I lose my job, it would be difficult to get another position within six months with equal pay.
Sure, the banks offered stupid loans, but they didn’t force people to take them.
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There was a time (pre 1980) when people would not have been able to get those loans, and banks would not have been able to profit off of bad loans. It’s also about bad banking policy in our country.
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I’m not talking an interest-only or other exotic loan. This loan would’ve been approved pre-1980. But I have enough common sense to know I shouldn’t do it.
Also, for a country that prides itself on personal freedoms, why is it that when something goes wrong, the first solution is to regulate people from making stupid decisions? Regulations and laws can take years to enact, whereas using your common sense can be immediate.
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Actually, in the case of a number of lenders, the lenders outright lied and manipulated people to take out loans for more than they could afford. In some cases– I know several people this happened to– when the buyer went to settle on the house, there were ‘suddenly’ mysterious fees that coincidentally ate up whatever liquid capital the buyer had, and the lender ‘magically’ was able to increase the loan to cover those extra thousands. Sure, the buyer should have cut and run– thus leaving the seller hanging out on a string. The lender counted on people’s feelings of moral responsibility to the seller to make them go through with it.
There’s all sorts of court documents about those lenders. Some of them– the most egregious– have been fined and disciplined– but the bad loans they deliberately set up are still hurting the economy.
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As long as Fannie Mae was willing to buy up, package, and resell the bad loans the banks didn’t care much if they were bad loans.
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I remember watching a TV investigating program about Fannie Mae several years ago that said that Fannie Mae actually owned the company that did their collections on bad loans. Not sure if it is still the case but they did not care if you were late in paying because they would still make money of doing the collections.
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This article feels like a delay tactic because the writer doesn’t want to tackle her debt problem. Procrastination doesn’t make the problem go away…unless you’re one of those people who, if given the option, will walk away from their debt.
Personally, responsibility is pretty simple: Can I look at myself in the mirror without flinching?
BTW, if procrastination is a real issue for you, I recommend Piers Steels’ The Procrastination Equation.
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I am in the middle of reading Joe Mihalic’s e-book “Destroy Student Debt: A Combat Guide to Freedom” (highly recommended, BTW, and per his nomoreharvarddebt.com blog, free from Amazon today and tomorrow only – shameless plug, I know, but I have no affiliation with him, I just like his blog and book). He talks a lot about the mindsets that created debt and how to shift that mindset towards combatting debt. He doesn’t address responsibility because it’s a given that one who borrowed will repay (or one wouldn’t be reading the book).
I’m in agreement with most of the responses thus far, esp. #6/El Nerdo’s take on owning one’s actions, mistakes, and consequences as part of being responsible, regardless of the factors that brought you to this point. Responsibility is owning one’s self and all that entails; irresponsibility is not owning – blaming another or passing the buck.
If I have entered a contract and it turns out to not be what I wanted and I can’t legally renegotiate the terms, it’s my responsibility to suck it up, honor my commitment, and find a way – whether it’s student loans for a career path that isn’t working or an underwater mortgage (or, for that matter, a spouse with normal human weaknesses to adjust to, especially as I hope he’ll do the same for me). I’m still chewing very much over something Mihalic said about debt repayment not being something that makes you happy, it makes you free. Like many, I find it tough to meet responsibilities when it isn’t pleasant or joyous to do so – but I would not sleep well with myself if I didn’t.
Finally – Honey, I am sympathetic to your situation because there are parallels in it to mine. But I have to agree with others here – less talk, more action. I would love to see posts from you describing concrete actions you are taking to reduce your living expenses and route the funds to paying off your debts, including your emotional struggles to reconcile the desire to be happy with the need to be free. If you have a Kindle, pick up Joe Mihalic’s e-book; I think it would help you tremendously.
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If you don’t have a Kindle, pick up this ebook
There is a free PC app for the kindle allowing you to read Kindle books on any computer (also ipod/ipad apps). I’ve not read the book, but I did just download it
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I am excited to read that book. I don’t have a kindle, but a friend does so I asked him to download it (hopefully he reads it, he has a lot of debt, too).
My first post since being hired as a staff writer at GRS was July 23. I have implemented some changes, thanks to everyone’s feedback. But I wanted to wait at least a billing cycle so I’d have some ACTUAL numbers to report, not just projected ones (since I didn’t think that would satisfy people).
I also think that since I am making progress (i.e., it’s not a matter of scrambling to find the money for my next payment), the philosophy behind it all is the more important and interesting side of the story.
This is especially the case since I am just one measly representative of a VAST, SYSTEMIC problem in our country. Whether I personally succeed or fail (hint: I’m confident I will succeed), my $100,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to what I believe is over a trillion dollars owed. THAT conversation is far more important.
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hey, here quickly @ lunchtime to say there’s a kindle reader for all software platforms! and that includes phone apps.
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The systemic problem is already documented elsewhere, including:
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
http://scholasticsnakeoil.blogspot.com/
http://studentdebtcrisis.org/
The questions there might be more interesting, but from what I’ve read from you so far, they would be more distracting than helpful for you and a way to feel like you’re fixing the problem without actually fixing the problem. As the saying goes, if you want to clean the world, sweep your own porch first.
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You are representative of a small minority of ADULTS who chose to hide in academia rather than grow up and work after four years.
With apolgies to “Animal House”…
“Don’t flatter yourself, Honey. It wasn’t that great!”
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I have taken a lot of criticism on my blog for using the income-based repayment option. Since the federal government offers this option I don’t see how using it could be seen as morally or ethically wrong. I didn’t ask for this option, but since it is offered I will use it.
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It can be considered morally or ethically wrong because not everyone delegates their moral and ethical judgement to the federal government. Just because something isn’t illegal or is provided for in a government program does not mean that that thing is therefore moral or ethically correct, and our government is not set up to provide moral and ethical pronouncements.
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Thanks for sharing, Andy. I’m not on IBR at the moment although I don’t consider the program unethical. I understand why others might (it was one of the main points of my article), but one individual doesn’t have the authority to dictate someone else’s conclusions.
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Yeah, I find it interesting how people can take tax deductions/credits, social programs and find no moral problems in that, but not student loan repayment plans…creating moral codes to suit our self interests, while condemning others for making very similar choices.
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Dealing with children and student loans will vary a great deal with the child, looking at it from the point of view of the parents’ responsibility. In our case:
Child 1. Went to art school, is semi-employed as an artist/writer, getting to be well known in a small circle, working at a low-wage job to pay the bills. We helped her though school, have paid some of her small loans, and of the remaining, are taking over 75% of them while she is taking over 25%.
Child 2. Joined the army after high school, two tours in Iraq, wounded, going through college on the GI bill, will not let us help him. However, we do a lot for his family and usually give him about $ 3,000/year, babysit, edit termpapers, and so on. We will probably help more with grad school.
Child 3. Has started college for the fourth time. We have paid some of her loans and she is paying off one of them while still in school. However, because she is starting and stopping so often, we will not help her any more until she is actually finished, and then give her some money toward her loans.
But no one will default or reneg on their responsibilities. Each took a path of his/her own choosing and will be responsible for that choice.
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Although this article didn’t really help me, the comments did. Thanks for the reminder of how you envelope/snowflaked your way to being debt-free. I go back and forth between expanding my emergency fund and paying down my almost-gone student debt. These comments made me log on right now and make another student loan payment (now down to only $3.4K!!). Thanks for the encouragement, this is why I read this and other PF blogs. You guys rock.
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I actually think this article is more interesting than one where Honey would lay out her debt repayment plan. Maybe I’m reading into this a bit, but I see this article as a logical step for someone who practiced financial irresponsibility (accruing $100,000 in debt that they can’t really afford) and is now becoming financially responsibility. If I were Honey, my first question on my journey of financial responsibility would be “Now that I have this debt, what are my options?” And to answer that question, you need to look at all possibilities, rank them (and part of this ranking would include whether or not they’re financially responsible), and make a decision.
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So, you’d be okay if the writer decided to meet her minimum legal obligations and walk away from the debt after 25 years? You think it’s perfectly okay to get rich slowly by abusing the system? I know I sound judgmental, but isn’t this site about doing the right thing even if it’s difficult because you understand the difference between needs and wants?
To me, it appears she didn’t just look at her options. She looked at her options, then went further to justify her debt and her decision to not pay back the debt in full if she so chooses.
Now, I have to stop reading GRS for a while because I feel like I’m bashing my head against a wall.
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Hi Ann,
From an emotional perspective, no, I would not be okay if she walked away after 25 years. However, as long as she meets her minimum legal obligation, she has every right to do so. When loans were made, both sides agreed to all terms – including the option that the borrower would walk away after 25 years. Yes, the taxpayers would end up covering the difference, but we do the same thing every time a company goes bankrupt or lays off employees, and we cover unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc. If companies can make mistakes and have taxpayers cover it, then why shouldn’t a person be able to do the same?
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In fact, we do it every time a company goes bankrupt, which airlines have been doing regularly to get out of their financial obligations as long as I can recall.
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I believe in social programs and happily pay into them through taxes. I know they get abused, but they are a need which my family had to depend on when I was younger. But the difference between my family back then and this writer now is that we couldn’t afford the basics (food and shelter in the form of a one-bedroom apartment for six people, not massages) otherwise. This writer is not in the same situation.
As for why it’s okay for corporations declare to bankruptcy and not individuals: It’s not okay. I don’t think anyone here ever said it was okay. Those executives who made those decisions can comfort themselves by saying that it’s the only way to save jobs, etc., but it still doesn’t make it okay. However, I understand the need for bankruptcy, but only if there is absolutely no other alternative. (Personally, I think Greece should’ve been booted from the Eurozone and allowed to declare bankruptcy years ago.) This writer, however, has alternatives.
Also, using the argument that since other people walk away from debt, therefore you should to is, frankly, childish. That’s like whining to your parents that Bobby gets to stay up late, therefore so should you.
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OK Honey, I know that YEARS AGO you wrote about your debt, your now-husband’s inability to budget, and all of these issues on that other blog you kept. The one where you said you with going with a super-long engagement so you would get married without going into debt?
So what has changed in those years? Can you get on with your story rather than trying to rationalize ways to get out of paying off your debt?
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What is this other blog you speak of? Blog address please or link from “way back machine”.
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As GRS entries go, this entry is weak, weak, weak, and needs to be copy-edited to boot.
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The number one rule for me is that I am responsible for me.
This means the following in my relationship to others and society and finances:
1)If I accept help and generosity from others, I owe them gratitude at the very least.
2)If help and generosity occurs in something like a loan or other financial vehicle, and I accept their terms, I repay the entire loan or fulfill the other financial commitment.
If later, I wonder whether I made the right choice or not, I still have to remember that I am responsible for me and all of my decisions. I still owe those who have helped a debt of gratitude and repayment.
My whole frustration with people whining about their student loans/mortgages is that on the one hand they accept they made a stupid choice to get into debt as far as they did, but then push very hard to say they made a bad deal so should get some loan forgiveness for their foolishness or rationalize about how society might do more because they didn’t get the job or life they wanted when they graduated or accepted the mortgage. That’s not personal responsibility, that’s a cop-out. A cop-out is also paying the minimum on your loan waiting for it to be discharged when you could do more.
Why do I get irate about this? I had 30K from my undergraduate degree, paid it off with lots of sacrifice, worked for several years, and now am getting my Ph.D. and will be debt free. Hemming and hawing about your student loan debt weakens the student loan program for those who really need the leg up and use it wisely, and shows a lack of character and personal responsibility that weakens society’s desire to exhibit social responsibility for those working very hard to improve their lives and give back to society.
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While I’m certainly concerned about the ethics aspect of financial responsibility, for me, it’s always been about personal responsibility. As El Nerdo mentioned, I like having the freedom of being able to make choices and not having some financial institution looming over my head.
A friend of mine recently started paying off his several thousand dollar debt, and he said he didn’t realize how much it had been getting him down. The creditor calling him every day really started to play on his psyche without him even realizing it. He said it was a daily reminder of his financial problems.
You can let the call go to voicemail, but I don’t think most of us can truly ignore it.
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This. I can totally relate after waging war with collection agencies for years – not our debt, my m-i-l’s. (Even though probate court threw out the claim as it was past the statute of limitations, the bank that issued the credit card simply sold it to collections and they pass it around.) It totally wears you down to deal with daily calls, even with letting them all go to voice mail. Just not enough for me to pay a debt that isn’t ours and that we have no legal or moral obligation to pay.
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Did not know that any student loan balance forgiven after 25 years may be considered income and taxed. Very interesting.
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I find this post really interesting. For myself, I had roughly $50,000 in grad school loans. My parents and I had a deal for undergraduate: if I was able to get a scholarship that covered at least half of tuition, they would help me with the other half, which I thought was incredibly generous. I paid for grad school on my own (mostly through debt).
Luckily, I got a great job out of grad school and was able to maintain my broke grad student lifestyle, so I paid it off after a year.
I don’t think it’s fair, though, to say that someone not being able to afford their loan repayments is “irresponsible”. A lot of people couldn’t predict this recession or that it would continue this long. My parents always tell me: don’t mistake luck for ability. I worked hard for my current position and debt-free lifestyle, but I know others that worked just as hard or harder and aren’t in as good a spot. I think we should all try to be a bit more understanding of others: just because you have a lot of debt or may not be able to pay it off, doesn’t mean you’re irresponsible. Life doesn’t often work out the way we plan.
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Okay, one final comment before I get out for fresh air.
I believe the reason so many commenters are frustrated by this post and this writer is because of her tone and her specific circumstances. No one here is going to go “tsk-tsk” at people who are in debt because they have cancer or had their entire life savings wiped out because they invested in Enron or WorldCom. Bad things happen.
This writer chose to pursue master’s and doctorate’s degrees but doesn’t appear to be leveraging them. She took on more debt because she wanted to. I fully support anyone who pursues a bachelor’s degree because I believe the payoff is there. Beyond that, however, you really need to think long and hard about the costs and benefits.
This writer chooses to spend money on items that are clearly wants (I don’t ascribe to an ascetic lifestyle, but there’s a line) instead of paying off the debt that, frankly, doesn’t seem to bother her. (Or maybe it comes across that way because she’s too perky for me.)
Instead of acting on her debt problem, she’s rationalizing it.
In short, for me, for someone with such advanced education and who’s a member of Mensa, this writer makes me question the value of higher education…even though I’m pursuing a master’s degree myself.
And for everyone who keeps saying that if something is offered, it’s not wrong to take it: I walk by McDonald’s every day, but I choose not to eat there because I prefer to keep my cholesterol down and I hear obesity is no picnic.
ETA: I think someone mentioned that no one would voluntarily repay a loan. To that, that’s just sad if you believe that and are surrounded by people who believe that. I recently made a $3000 loan to my sister. I told her it was a gift because I am more than happy to help her out before she starts her married life. However, both she and her fiance won’t have it and are paying me $300 every month for 10 months. My parents gave me money to help with the student loans after I graduated. I paid them back even though they didn’t expect it.
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Even beyond those health/disaster issues, though, I still think folks are being too harsh. Most of us feel that the best investment that we can make is in ourselves. Honestly, I think that it makes more sense for someone to have huge college loans than home loans or loans for a new car. Even if you do your research, the job market isn’t always what you’d expect it to be/what your school tells you.
I just don’t understand why people are being so judgmental towards Honey, I believe that she represents a larger percentage of the population than most would believe. I think it takes a lot of guts to be honest about your finances and your mistakes. Even though I’m debt free and have substantial savings, I still shudder to think at exposing my spending habits publicly (especially those related to my insatiable sweet tooth). Let’s all just put this in perspective.
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Let me reiterate: I fully support higher education. Higher education is what got me out of poverty.
An investment implies a possible return. This writer hasn’t mentioned anything about leveraging her PhD.
Also, previously, she mentioned that she and her spouse were considering moving and purchasing a home and adding a mortgage on top of their student loans and consumer debt.
This writer is like that child you have who has great potential but squanders it.
ETA: I don’t see why you would worry about people judging your spending habits if you can afford them. You have a sweet-tooth. I have a love for shiny objects with the logo of a fruit on them.
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You say,
This writer chooses to spend money on items that are clearly wants (I don’t ascribe to an ascetic lifestyle, but there’s a line) instead of paying off the debt that, frankly, doesn’t seem to bother her. (Or maybe it comes across that way because she’s too perky for me.)
I ask,
Who gets to determine the “line” for any individual? Does feeling bad, nervous, guilty, worried have ANYTHING to do with “taking responsibility”? How would being depressed help anything? What if someone’s motivation stems from optimism?
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Honey,
There’s upbeat-whatever, then there’s upbeat-but-motivated. Your writing tone comes across as the former and I interpret that as not being concerned about your debt or paying it off. It’s very much: “Oops! My husband and I have $230k in debt. Heehee! Oh, well.” If I was wrong, which I did imply in my comment, and you are serious about tackling your debt, then I apologize.
As for “the line,” I would like to think it’s common sense, but apparently common sense is not as common as I would like to think.
And I can no longer address you directly because it’s frustrating and not productive. I have no interest in either trying to help someone who isn’t ready to be helped or engaging in a philosophical debate about money. For me, it’s very black and white. I spent a week with a seven-year-old recently and even she tried to pay me back after I paid for her dinner. Within five minutes, she went so far as to plan out how and when she would pay me with her allowance and tooth fairy money and how she wouldn’t buy the chocolate bar she wanted to make the first payment. Of course, I’m not accepting payment, but if a seven-year-old can figure it out…
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Ann, Honey is paying her debts and has stated that over and over. And she appears to be paying them in amounts that are just fine with her lenders. Your issue seems to be that she’s not paying them fast enough. I may agree with that as a personal matter, but I don’t get why it’s a moral one.
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Honey, you should have been a professor! You are all hat and no cattle here. Sorry, but I agree with many other comments here that waxing and waning on a topic like this only makes sense after you’ve tackled a good chunk of your debt. It just feels like the light has not gone off for you yet. Responsibility is going to smack you in the face, as it did for me, if you ever have a child. If you are planning to have one, your responsibility is to clear this mess pronto so that they don’t inherit the pitfalls of it (stressed marriage, no savings, etc).
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I’m interested to see what people think about the public service loan forgiveness after 10 years if they are not a fan of the student loan debt being discharged after 25 years; is there a difference?
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No difference.. Because it is a potentially better use of taxpayer dollars then the health problems and crime that the uneducated cause. That should make everyone feel better about all this.
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Personally I don’t have a problem with the public service loan forgiveness. In a lot of cases these people are providing vital services for which they are undercompensated — think of physicians in underserved areas. It’s just another form of compensation. I wouldn’t consider all public sector jobs to be public service, but I think we as a society stand to benefit greatly from this sort of deal.
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Stop acting like you all would VOLUNTARILY pay back all $100,000 if it was legal not to. I’m sorry, but they must have thought it worth it to put that clause in there. I don’t know that much about loan forgiveness but it seems there IS a tradeoff….25 years of federal/ social service.
How is that any different than paid federal scholarships and education being funded by military. It’s not Monopoly money, it’s also taxpayer money.
I don’t believe a single person who has said they would repay the loan. The only reason you would repay it is if you wanted to break the agreement to work/ pay the minumu for the alotted time.
And if you do pay them voluntarily, you are a stupid saint. If you feel that strongly about giving back, surely you can find something better to do with the extra money. Some people really sit up high when they’re not the ones on the horse.
Honey, it’s a dog-eat-dog world out there. Take the breaks when you can get them. If you hold up your end of the deal, you should be able to reap the benefits. Please do what is healthful for you and don’t feel bullied into giving away a perfectly reasonable gift.
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I agree as a country we must support education. My cousin and I went to the same school had the same amount of contributions from parents. He was an at risk young man and I was from a middle class family. His school was completely paid for through grants and subsidies. Mine was paid for through scholarships and earned money. He had much more money than I did and actually bought me a few books and food because I was unable to pay for them. The government paying for his education was money well spent. Both he and his wife had juvenile records from low income families. Their kids are middle class kidos and I suspect will have to pay for their education with loans, work and scholarships. The loans I took out I need to pay back. The government supports education by giving out grants and scholarships. Society needs to support education and it does. An individual does not get to choose after the fact that they want to be supported.
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I have read about 6-articles that you have wrote and I just want to let you know that the $100K you spent in your PhD was money wasted.
What a bunch of horse manure. Reading your articles makes me want to literally slap some sense into you.
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The scariest part is that these degrees were in writing… while all of her posts here are written terribly and are in need of serious copy-editing. Now that’s what I’d call a huge waste of money.
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This is actually a very relevant topic for a lot of people. We just don’t think about it in a “broader” sense besides personal debt that often.
For instance what if you work for a company that received a bailout/loan from the government which it didn’t pay back? Or received an extremely low interest rate? Does society benefit or did the damage just get spread out among other people? Sure it may not be your decision unless on the Board of Directors of such a company but what if you continue to work for them?
If you work for say a racist organization and claim its just for a “paycheck”, is that acceptable?
Or say if Borders HAD been able to obtain debt forgiveness and repaid a smaller amount would everyone stop shopping at the stores because you “disagree” with their moral decision to try to pay less?
What about if you signed up for a debt @ a certain interest rate which you REFINANCE at? Isn’t IBR essentialy the same thing? Would you be obligated to pay back at the higher interest rate forever because thats what you signed up for initially?
Even talking about personal finance the situations we’re all at are different. I really have no right to point fingers at Honey because my parents paid for my tuition. For that I am eternally grateful but it also means that I’m STARTING at a different debt level which may or may not lead to different decisions about other costs I have. I’m not married so do not have to try to convince a spouse to be on the same page about spending. Life isn’t so black & white and I thought this was a thought proviking post.
It becomes extremely personal but do agree with the comment that it would be interesting to see how Honey would apply these thoughts to her own situation/decisions.
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More Kristin Wong, less Honey Smith. Why do I feel that she’s trying to rationalize walking away from her debts? Also – walking away from a ‘bad mortgage’ is NOT accepting responsibility for your financial choices. Can’t stand her. Won’t even be reading comments.
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I don’t normally speak out against internet rudeness (there are only 24 hours in a day), but I can’t help but feel that a lot of the hateful comments towards Honey is coming from a bandwagon-jumping, pitchfork, rabble-rabble-rabble mob mentality. Really? You have that much hatred and disgust for a random person on a blog simply because you disagree with them?
If you do then maybe you should find a soul-sustaining hobby. I mean I can be rude; of course when I do it I like to believe the rudeness matches the offense.
I can’t help but think if Honey’s name was ommitted from this article, and identifying details were left out, half of these comments would not exist and instead we would be having a rational discussion about an article. Let go of your prejudices, or at least check yourself enough to know they’re there so you don’t say something irrelevant and stupid.
Learn to be an individual thinker and stop falling for attention wanton comments meant to try to get folks to join in their authors’ miserableness and to rally against this chick. You really look like a thoughtless meathead; sheep have more independent sense. See I can be rude
Wiki has a lovely entry on mob mentality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality
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I don’t think it’s mob mentality. I think it’s a genuine frustration and disappointment. Many writers auditioned for a staff position, and instead of thoughtful, helpful articles, we get Honey’s about her disastrous finances, her refusal to make changes, and her musings about philosophy. There is nothing in her articles that I feel can help improve my finances. If her story was a cautionary tale, I could understand, but instead, she’s a staff writer who is supposed to be informing us, not asking for advice! Throw in her denial attitude, and quotes from her about how she has “empirical proof she’s smarter than 90% of the world”, and I just don’t see why GRS continues to have her on staff. I used to include GRS as part of my daily routine, but with the abundance of articles like Honey’s, it’s just not worth my time any more.
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This. Now I’m kicking myself for not auditioning for a staff writer position. Even though I’m a “millionairess next door,” I figured I had nothing to contribute because my circumstances (high-paying job to get rid of the law school loans, single, no kids, etc.) admittedly made the journey easier. On the other hand, not everyone would go to a school they didn’t like, major in something they hated, get a roommate, and work in ill-fitting jobs for 16+ years just to create a comfortable financial cushion for the future. I don’t know, maybe I’d get my share of criticism too.
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I would never criticize you for that path – it sounds extremely admirable. I would criticize you if you wrote a post for this site stating or implying that that is the only valid or responsible way to deal with law school loans. I think Honey is a valuable addition to this site because it reminds us that people prioritize things in different ways, and while we might disagree with those priorities, it’s often worth remembering that different views exist.
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Hi Cara,
Congrats on your success! I am on a very similar path. Single, no kids, higher ed degree that I paid off in a year, high paying job that I do for the $ to create a safety net for myself. I love to hear about women (especially single ladies) making it.
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I also think part of it is that Honey seems to take all the comments so cheerfully. It almost makes it seem like she is “in on the joke,” if you know what I mean. Maybe in reality the comments are really upsetting her, but it seems as though whenever someone questions her financial choices, she has a rationalization (and some smiley faces) at the ready.
Plus, I find myself continually refreshing this page whenever she posts, which has to be at least part of what JD was going for.
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I admire Honey’s responses. It takes a lot to respond gracefully when someone is attacking you.
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Thanks so much for saying this. It needed to be said. GRS has some great articles, and some not so great, but I’ve never seen people rally around hating the writer like they are doing with this person.
JD – can you please let Honey continue writing under a different name, or find some other way to hit the reset button on this whole thing? The vitriol is enough to make me want to stop reading. Please take a more active role in managing the comments, or this blog runs the risk of losing one of its more valuable components.
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Keep Honey!
I love seeing the hatred. She’s better than reality TV. Which i don’t watch, because i don’t watch TV. Of course.
Still. I mean i love her posts and open them with gusto, and keep the thread open to see what people say. And how she rationalizes out of responsible.
Love it.
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I’ve given Honey negative feedback, but I do agree with you in certain respects.
Perhaps a better focus/approach to her contributions would be better. I’m not sure this topic, written by this author, makes sense. Whether or not it was intended, it came across as a bunch of reasons/excuses related to her very situation.
Perhaps sticking to concrete happenings in Jake/Honey’s financial life would be a way to gain a little goodwill with the readership — even if that means she writes less frequently.
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I am not generally a conspiracy/it’s-all-part-of-the-plan person but what you call vitriol helps pull people to these posts and I highly doubt anyone will “manage” that into stopping. You are feeling bad for Honey personally as if she is going to be offended by the things people say. She isn’t. She feeds the dislike of her with comments like the “I’m smarter than 98% of the world” Mensa statement and “I have to have massages for my health”, etc.
I truly believe she is intentionally egging this on to spur more comments and increase her value to GRS. She did learn something with her PhD in Rhetoric (if that is real) – this is a time tested tool.
Don’t fall for the ally/enemy roles. Read her posts if you want but, like another commentator said, recognize that they are similar to reality TV and largely scripted for the drama.
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The closest comparison I can reach is the way Trent’s readers at The Simple Dollar used to respond to him. I think the problem is when people try to justify their actions instead of just saying, “Yep. This is screwed up and I need to fix it, but I keep struggling.” Trent used to do some of that, and I think Honey does some of that. Also, both Trent and Honey engage their detractors, which just fuels the fire. If I were Honey, I’d move on to writing about different subjects.
That said, she and I had a discussion about how people were going to react way back at the start. I knew there’d be complaints. I was willing to go forward if she thought she could handle the heat, and so far she’s okay with it.
Bottom line: I think Honey should write about different topics and quit pursuing this one. But I also think GRS readers should lighten up and accept that she’s in a different position (financially and mentally) than they are. Right now, our authors have a wide range of background and experiences. I like that. I think it’s good to have a Honey among us. And she’s getting fan mail from folks who are afraid to post their support here on the site because of the negativity toward her posts. There are people out there who feel solidarity with her, and that’s a good thing.
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I think people who threaten others with battery (“literally slap some sense…”) are probably more irresponsible in real life than those who are struggling with debt within the bounds of the law. (Not necessarily about money, but we’re responsible for our social conduct in general.)
Also, as a writer here, I have to say, sometimes it’s astonishing the kind of stuff people project upon us, the kinds of assumptions and jumps to conclusions and selective readings that are being made.
As a reader I have made assumptions and jumped to conclusions and read selectively as well, so I’m not claiming sainthood on my part. I’m as guilty as everybody else: I’m just calling attention to the phenomenon because I can see from both sides of the mirror now.
In a way, we’re creatures of the public’s imagination, and their dreams and nightmares are projected upon us. They think they know not just what they read on the page, but also they are SURE of everything we think and what our motivations are. Personally, I find it a very enlightening experience– call it a crash course in Jungian psychology.
At this point in my existence I’ve come to think that something like 90% of what people say is more about themselves than about “the other,” and I try to read it that way.
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Try writing about your divorce and see what happens!
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I want to speak up in support of Honey Smith. She was brave to share her life with us and I appreciated this article very much because it provided me information I found useful. I’m amazed at the anger some comments seem to contain. I hope this stops. Well done, Ms. Smith. Keep going!
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JD – thanks for the comment and insight into your goal with having Honey post. I’d just caution you that the parallel with Trent at TSD is a good one – frustrate people enough, enough times, and people start to drift off. I read TSD avidly for years, but haven’t read it in months, and have no plans to. Actually, the “ok enough of this” moment was when I started reading TSD so closely (instead of occasionally), as well as Mr Money Mustache. So it’s worth considering whether Honey is helping or hurting your brand. I’d say quite likely hurting.
Rather than a staff writer, why not make her a long-term project, where we get updates every 3 or 6 months, but she is not on the hook for articles every week or two? That way she’s not appearing to give advice when her house is not in order, and with the change in orientation, we can get invested in her success rather than sucked into the frustration. I think many of us are more than willing to cheer on her success, but are not patient with her flippancy and self-justification in the middle of a mountain of debt.
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J.D., I’m not sure I agree about Honey writing about different topics — at least not as the mainstay of her contributions here.
Personally, I like Honey and I’ve enjoyed her columns, though I’d agree with other commenters today that that this one is not her strongest.
What makes Honey interesting is the fact that she is in such an early stage of personal finance. She’s starting to make some of the same changes and decisions you had to make ten years ago, and beginning to educate herself about money management, and there really hasn’t been a perspective like that on this site since you retired your debt. I’m interested to see how she progresses — her setbacks, her successes — and to watch her debt go down. I want to hear about the changes she makes and how they work for her.
Do I want to see her writing about the same things Donna or Kristin or Robert write about? Absolutely not! I’m no expert in frugality or investments, and I’d rather hear expert strategies in those topics from people who are…well, experts.
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A monthly balance sheet check in with narrative on what went right, what went wrong this month, what she learned and her current goals and current struggles, etc. would be very interesting from Honey. I vote for that!
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JD, I am so disappointed in you! You agree that she is being naive? ‘Just give her time.’??
Who approved this post and where is the editor? Even for reader stories, it is not as if you have an ‘anything goes’ policy.
Many of the responses to this entry are about GRS and quality standards, and not about Honey personally. The comments section is where the community part of this blog comes into play, and general concerns will be expressed on specific posts–that’s just the way it is on a blog.
I think the comments about quality of content are being ignored because of the ultra-nasty comments about Honey, and others’ ensuing defense her. (That whole sideline is a diversion; don’t feed the trolls.)
I don’t care what Honey does, and I have no interest in attacking her personally. I am just trying to speak up for better standards and screening for GRS content.
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Lmoot: I don’t think blogs can have it both ways — to foster a sense of personality and personal journey that mainstream publications don’t have and then expect audiences to ignore questions of credibility. I don’t think it’s possible to hit a “reset” button in this case, unfortunately.
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Oops, this is a response to #94
You say:
“I can’t help but think if Honey’s name was ommitted from this article, and identifying details were left out, half of these comments would not exist and instead we would be having a rational discussion about an article.”
I completely agree — but that’s not how this site works is it? We know Honey’s story and she’s the author. Her story and financial landscape is exactly what she’s writing about.
Put it this way. What if this were a health/weight loss blog and a Staff writer was 100 lbs overweight. If the writer is seemingly less concerned about her health crisis as the people who might only be 20 lbs overweight (or not at all overweight), it is challenge from the get-go. If there are readers 100 lbs overweight, but they are busting hump to make that change — that still presents a credibility issue for the staff writer.
I can’t think of a great parallel to today’s article in the weight loss world, but you get my drift.
But I wouldn’t worry to much about the responses. It’s a traffic boon.
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I totally get that, but that’s why I think it takes a “better” person to suppress the automatic association and practice mindfulness.
I too read Honey’s backstory, but even though of course she’s writing from her own perspective (which many believe is flawed) I think the article, which I read with an open mind, did a good job providing other perspectives as well for opposing consideration.
She was not lecturing us nor did she even provide a definitive answer. In fact, she ended with a question meant to prompt discussion, and instead some folks couldn’t get their mind past the “Honey Smith” at the top of the article to see that, and went through (or didn’t even read as some people admitted) the article with their trigger finger cocked.
Everyone take a deep breath, and a bubble bath, re-read the article, and maybe we can try this again.
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Personally I like this article, minus all the ugly comments. When it comes to student loans, there are 2 parties that shoulder some responsibility in the transaction: 1. the student not to take on too much debt; and 2. the lender not to give 20 year olds $100k of loans. I don’t believe either action is responsible or appropriate, and lenders shouldn’t be surprised that they don’t get their full $$ back when their borrowers have massive debts that they can’t repay. I borrowed a relatively small amount for school & that was annoying enough to get paid off… I can’t imagine being on the hook to repay $100k.
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Honey, to answer your questions:
1. If I had to pick between my family facing true hardship and the social responsibility of repaying the full loan I would choose my lowest legal obligation. My main responsibility is to my family – all else is secondary.
2. I do believe that people should invest responsibly. I wouldn’t want to invest in the tobacco industry, for example, or some evil but profitable company.
3. I wouldn’t really want to walk away from a mortgage, but if I had to, I would have to. I wouldn’t feel that someone was “letting the country down” if they truly had to choose between their home or their family suffering. However, people listed above who are trying to get out of a mortgage just to make money are pretty sickening! You entered a contract – deal with the consequences!
4. Death ends your responsibilites. I think loans should in no way be passed to other family members. I don’t even think you have a responsibility to leave your children with an inheritance – most people have to make their own way in the world, so it’s up to you whether you choose to save hard all your life to provide them a financial boost when you die.
In reference to your own situation, I hope you suceed in getting rid of your debt. Just keep making your payments and you’ll get there. I think after 25 years it is fair that the debt is written off, because that is what is written in the contract. Everyone knew what they were getting in to.
Keep writing Honey, don’t let the haters get you down.
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There are a *buttload* of people in this country in situations similar to Honey’s. Higher education at any price is a product that is being pimped very hard as something that is a sure bet (like homes were).
Young people from less savvy backgrounds can find themselves in deep doo-doo before they have a firm grasp on how things work in real life. We can demonize people for buying into the Don’t Use Drugs, Stay in School, Honesty and Hard Work, White Picket Fence mythos that is the American Dream because they didn’t know any better but that isn’t going to be particularly helpful to anyone. Well, I guess the schadenfreude for the folks that managed to navigate the minefield successfully might have some value for some . . .
It’s a big systemic problem. For every person like Honey that has the means and the intent to address her situation, you’ve got who knows how many that do not have the means or have become overwhelmed to the point of giving up. It’s kind of like large-scale disaster is looming and we’re all standing on Honey’s porch with pitchforks and torches.
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“Impact” can only be used as a verb in one situation: a physical force, such as one object physically striking another. “Impact” should never be used as a verb for a non-physical action, such as ‘death impacting responsibility.’ One would use the word ‘affect’ in that context.
Her sentence which included “and in returned” was clearly not proofread.
A person with an advanced degree in writing who waxes philosophic about how education benefits society as a whole and therefore should be subsidized by society would be advised to practice better grammar and proofreading in her posts.
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Actually, the word you’re looking for is “effect” not “affect.” “Affect” is a noun. Impact as a verb can mean to “have a strong effect.” Using the word “affect” instead of “impact” in this context is simply wrong. A person who plays the grammar police in an attempt to take someone else down a notch should double check the grammatical facts in question first.
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x 2. ‘Affect’ and ‘effect’ are both nouns and verbs. ‘Affect’ would be find in this context but ‘impact’ also works just fine. My vocab is just fine, I’m not here to proofread, I’m here for the $ discussion!
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Sorry, but you’re wrong on both counts. My Webster’s and “The Grammar Girl” are both on my side.
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/is-impact-a-verb.aspx
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/affect-versus-effect.aspx
Based on a quick review of search results, it looks like there is a fierce ongoing debate as to whether “impact” should be used a verb.
I will admit that my comment was pretty snarky, but it stands to reason that a professional writer should write professionally. Specifically, by proofreading her work.
And you contradicted yourself in your comment. You said:
“Affect” is a noun. Impact as a verb can mean to “have a strong effect.”
If you are contending that “affect” is a noun, I think you meant to say “have a strong affect.”
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Haha, I’m actually 50% right, even according to grammar girl. Impact can be substituted for affect legitimately, as the link you included implies. Jargon, maybe, but a legit use. Merriam Webster backs it up: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impact
I was definitely wrong about the affect/effect difference – why I only bothered to look it up after posting, IDK, just being difficult I guess – and I blame my undergrad exposure to psychology for that one where affect is a noun and you effect change. =P
Since you’ve edited your comment, I’ll edit mine to say that affect and effect are both nouns and verbs (I tried to post this a couple hours ago to say I was wrong, too, but it didn’t show up yet). Thus, there was no contradiction, though I was flat out wrong about which one – affect/effect – you should use.
I’m glad you’re on board with impact’s legitimacy in this context. That discussion is what led me to my affect/effect mistake in the first place. It’s nice that we impacted each other’s grammatical understanding.
Now to a weekend lacking in correct grammar!
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This is relevant to me right now because I am going to be diving into planning for college when January rolls around and my FASFA is due. I am stressing about student loans and everything associated with them, but I will find a way through this.
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I’ll admit I did not read through all these comments, but I just want to point something out. From what I gather, Honey is still what they call an “early career” PhD. I’m really only somewhat familiar with clinical and research psychology PhD career trajectories, and in general, it takes a few years out of school for them to really start making money. I imagine this is only more so the case for rhetorical PhDs (if I remember correctly, that’s what Honey has). Same with her husband– he JUST started a business. So I think there is a chance that their increased income in the coming years will allow them to decrease their debt at a faster rate. Meanwhile, they should be living like grad students (that’s what you do when you’ve graduated from grad school and your career hasn’t taken off yet). Just my opinion. Best of luck Honey.
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Isn’t she a secretary? You don’t need a PhD for that.
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Good point – if she does remain a secretary for too long, the whole PhD trajectory will become irrelevant. Though at least this blog might allow her to be putting something relevant on her CV.
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She doesn’t want that. She’s said repeatedly that she likes being an admin and has no intention of changing jobs.
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I am actually an academic advisor, not a secretary (which is a job classification they are phasing out where I work, anyway). And it’s not that I don’t apply to other jobs or want to advance in my career. It’s that the administrative side appeals to me more than the instructional side at this point.
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“However, if it’s a social construct, is society responsible for changing it? Does social responsibility lead to a diffusion of responsibility where we all complain but no one works to change things?”
Good questions you raise…it is important to point out the benefits of education that don’t necessarily have big flashing dollar signs, but have been shown to exist.
But as a social scientist and writing teacher, I have to object to that ending. “Society” is not an actor! Social responsibility doesn’t mean an amorphous blob does things, it means individuals, organizations, lawmakers, etc., do this. Society is composed of active units but it is NOT such a thing itself. So “social responsibility” only means everyone complains and no one does anything if no one steps up to be an active part of society through. And people are doing that through advocacy for continued subsidization of student loans or student loan forgiveness, on the one hand, and reductions of Pell grants and increases in interest rates, on the other – we still haven’t reached a social consensus because society isn’t a single actor.
Up until that ending, though, I did appreciate your looking at the issue from different perspectives, and I have enjoyed those comments in which people laid out their personal ideas of financial responsibility.
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I wonder how fixed our notions of responsibility are. Can someone slowly change their foundations of responsibility, e.g. from legal to moral or vice versa? An internal sense of responsibility seems to be a stronger basis for making rational decisions that benefit everyone, rather than a legal one which carries a lot of unusual, perhaps artificial values. I advise people on investing and in my experience the type of basic responsibility held by a person seems to be a rather fixed trait.
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I read the majority of the comments. Quite frankly, my thought is that if you really believe that the person you are writing to is not listening (or is not ready to hear what you have to say), the best thing you can do is to stop commenting. Shouting louder doesn’t change a person.
And if, perhaps, the responses to such articles are fewer, we can move on from the dead horse being kicked (rather violently) to something else.
This is meant to be a neutral comment. I’ve said stuff weeks ago about Honey’s situation, and there’s really not much else to say at this point.
I know, a comment about not commenting. I’ve been trying to resist the last 2 or 3 articles and I just finally had to say it.
Ok, back to lurking now.
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Community question:
Can you guys explain to me a bit more about why you think it’s not good to take legal options like income-adjusted student loan repayments?
I don’t understand this – and I’m not trying to be flippant, I am trying to understand the argument. We all operate within a legal framework – sometimes it helps us, sometimes it hurts us, and I expect that in a reasonably well-functioning society things come out about equally in the end. I figure that if the law says you can do something, you can do it without qualm (unless it’s egregious like the police/miner situation in South Africa, which I don’t think this seems to be). Yes, taxpayers are paying for some things, but it’s not like they would be getting a refund if you don’t take the legally-allowed route, that money would just be spent elsewhere. And it seems like it’s the same thing as taking deductions for owning a house, having a child, etc – how is it different? Thanks for the explanation!
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@superbien, 141:
This may not be a charitable interpretation. But, I believe many GRS readers would say that if you accept a loan — if you borrow money — you have a moral duty to pay it back.
That there are loopholes to help you not pay it back is immaterial to this argument. You borrowed the money, you should pay it back.
This is very different from deduction on taxes, as taxes aren’t viewed as a debt you willingly took on.
Views of morality are going to different from person to person. Our society, and a lot of GRS readers agree with Dave Ramsey that a debt is a moral failing.
So, I think that’s it. Does this make any sense?
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You could just work your way through college and not have any debt when you graduate. I did this with part-time jobs and I joined the Army Reserves. I graduated with no debt in 4 and a half years.
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