This guest post from William Cowie. William has contributed to ConsumerismCommentary.com, BudgetsAreSexy.com and other personal finance blogs, including his own, Dropdeadmoney.com.
We’ve all seen this bumper sticker, haven’t we?
Other than singing the Disney song from “Snow White,” how does it make you feel? “Wouldn’t it be great if I didn’t HAVE to…?”
And isn’t that most people’s fantasy: not having to go to work? Other than most fantasies, this one is actually achievable.
How? The top line of that bumper sticker contains the first part of the answer: paying off all your debt.
The second part of the answer is less obvious. Even after paying off your debt, you will still have living expenses, such as utilities, gas, all kinds of insurance, food and others like those. With what do you cover those?
In life, there are only two sources of income: a job or investments. If you don’t want to work, the obvious solution is to transition from job income to investment income.
Sounds simple, doesn’t it? I thought so, too. I was wrong.
What I discovered after mailing my last car payment was nothing short of an identity shift. I’ll save the gory details for another time, but here’s where it ends up:
Whether we know it or not, all of us have to choose whether to be a debtor to an investor.
Which one would you rather be? To answer the question, let’s look at the two identities a little closer.
Investor
There are two basic ways of making a living: you receive income from a job, or you receive income from your investments. Economists would say all sources of income boil down to either labor or capital (investments).
When most people state their financial dream, a core element of that dream is “I don’t have to work.” Many don’t actually say that explicitly, but it’s always there. Some people want to work, others want to lie by a pool in Cancun and sip piña coladas.
An investor is someone who has that choice. A debtor is someone who hasn’t.
When you’re an investor you derive your income from money you invested. This simple definition has three elements:
- You have money
- You invest that money
- Those investments produce an income from which you live
Debtor
The superficial definition of a debtor is someone who owes money to someone else, but the true definition of a debtor is something deeper, a mind-set… an identity, if you will. The best way to understand this is to consider the debtors’ paradox: nobody likes owing money and making payments, yet millions sign up for this fate daily without a gun to their heads. And most people who sign up already have payments, and so ignorance (“Oh no! I didn’t know I was signing up for this!”) is not a reason people ensnare themselves in debt. Millions do it knowingly and willingly… and repeatedly.
Why? Why do people consign themselves to a fate they hate? It’s because they are debtors.
They are not debtors because they have debt. They have debt because they are debtors.
A debtor is someone:
- who wants stuff without having to wait
- who therefore elects to owe money to others
- who therefore HAS to work to make the payments, and
- who doesn’t want the responsibility of making serious financial decisions,
Most people will probably accept the first three parts of that definition barely bristling. The last part might be a little more contentious. “How can you say I have a car payment because I don’t want the responsibility for making serious financial decisions?”
Let’s look at that. The visible manifestation of being a debtor is “making payments.” Most people are good at making payments — the elaborate system of consumer debt wouldn’t exist today if the majority of consumers didn’t make their payments on time.
As years pass by, debtors get used to parceling their incomes into the various bills and payments they need to make, to the point where they tend to think of every major purchase in terms of “can I make this payment?”
And so, when Danny Debtor’s car payment ends, he buys another car, one with a new set of payments. Is this because the car he just paid off happened to just die on him? No, it’s because he’s used to making payments. If he had to stop making car payments, he wouldn’t know what to do with the money that went into the payment. Maybe I lived in Orange County for too long, but almost everyone around us had this mind-set. And that probably accounts for the popularity for car leases. (If you’re going to always be making payments…)
Figuring out what to do with the monthly car payment when there is no longer a debt can actually be unsettling and unnerving. It’s much easier to keep doing what we know to do, therefore taking on a new set of payments is a natural and easy thing to do. Without knowing it, debtors acquire an identity; it’s more than just a habit. Their identity is wrapped up in the two words “making payments.”
And to make the payments, a debtor needs a job to provide an income. What other way is there?
Which do you want to be?
Investors don’t have to work, because their income comes from their investments. Those who work do so by choice. Others sing the bumper sticker song because they have to work to make payments. (By the way, to whom do those payments go? Investors, of course. Think about that for a bit.)
Most readers here seem to agree getting rid of debt is a high priority. Once the debt is paid off, what will you do with the income you used to pay off the debt? Is there any other option but to become an investor?
You’d be surprised how many times I hear people say they don’t want to become investors. (And let’s just state for the record that an investor is not a Wall Street gambler. Holly Johnson is a perfectly fine investor without even thinking of Wall Street.)
Why do people say they don’t want to exchange their debtor identity for that of an investor? Here are four possible reasons:
I have no money to invest.
The money that went toward debt payments is a good start. If that’s not enough, save, sell as much of your stuff as you can, and earn more (preferably all three). There are as many strategies and techniques to save as there are rocks in the Rockies. Likewise, there are many strategies to sell stuff and earn extra income.
Listen to your response. If you find yourself presenting reasons why you can’t save, sell stuff, or earn more money, you are a debtor. An investor will find ways to invest, a debtor will find ways to remain a debtor.
A person is as a person does. (This was an “ouch” revelation to me.)
I don’t know anything about investing.
Investing is not rocket science. Millions of people less smart than you have figured it out; you can too. It’s not an overnight thing, but there are thousands of free resources online to teach you how to invest in real estate, stocks, bonds, anything that produces an income.
And you can start learning before your debt is paid off, so when the big day arrives you’re ready.
I don’t have time.
Let’s say I approached you to be the ghost writer for my new book. I’ll pay you $1 million for the project and I show you the money so you know this is for real. All you have to do is read off the questions and transcribe my answers. The project will last about six months and it will take you an hour a day, two days a week. For $1 million, would you squeeze out some time? Thought so.
Then you have the time to learn about investing, and to “do it.”
I’m afraid I’ll lose everything.
That’s a reasonable fear, but hardly a reason to not invest. It’s called risk, and you take it every day. You run the risk every day that your employer (any employer) will eliminate your job. Does that risk make you not get a job? No, you find a job with risks you can handle. You manage those risks with your knowledge, hard work, networking, and so forth. The same applies to investing. There will be a few investments that will do well, some that won’t. The wonderful thing about investments is you can recover, and even sell them any time. The moment they look like they might go south, sell, just like you find another job if you see your company’s about to go out of business.
If you are determined not to become an investor, you no doubt can find other reasons not to.
Who are you?
Here’s the bottom line: You are what you do and you do what you are. In personal money terms, you can’t be anything but a debtor or an investor. Investor is the identity with all the options and goodies. Like anything of value, it’s not cheap and it’s not fast… but it’s worth it. It’s more achievable than you might think.
But you won’t be motivated to learn until you change your identity.
Becoming an investor begins on the inside. Your identity shapes your actions, thoughts and choices. If you’re a golfer, you practice and read a lot about playing golf. If you’re a shopper, you track down deals… fearlessly, diligently and relentlessly. If you’re a recreational chef (like my wife), you are always on the lookout for a new flavor, cooking technique and recipe.
Likewise, being an investor starts with a shift inside. Like the shopper, you relentlessly track down investment opportunities, whether you actually buy or not. Like the golfer or chef, you track down articles, books and blogs about your interest, always with an eye to improving your game.
But you will do none of these things until you sit down and have a meeting with the mirror about who you are and who you want to be.
Once you make the shift, it will be natural to start learning and reading. In the beginning it might all seem foreign, but after a while it will begin to make sense. And when you enter the realm where you can start small, well, there’s nothing like the smell of impending freedom in the morning.
The only alternative is living paycheck to paycheck, car loan to car loan… singing the bumper sticker song.
So… do you think becoming an investor is optional?
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This article is about Debt, Investing, Psychology
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I am glad this article was written. Years ago I planted a seed of an idea in my mind to become a successful investor. I hired the best teacher – Warren Buffett – at the cost of a trip to the library. Many trips, actually!
Since 2009 I have collected over CAD $50,000 in dividends from stocks, realized over $70,000 in capital gains.
I can choose to work at a job – or keep reading, learning, and doing the work of an investor.
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Wow that’s impressive .. how much capital did it take? What books do you recommend?
So far, I just invest in Index Funds, and my returns are nowhere close to spectacular. But at least positive …
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Candidate for Reader Stories?
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I second that! Rick, I’d love to here your story.
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I like this post, but I’ve never been a big fan of dichotomies. PF people seem to talk about “debt” as if its all non-necessities like car loans and consumer goods — but what about homes? I don’t know anyone who has been able to purchase a home paying cash. A mortgage is a debt, yet these people still manage to invest and save for retirement.
I don’t currently have debt — mortgage or otherwise — but am I in debtor mode because I’m saying for a big downpayment? In order to truly be an investor, should I be putting all of my cash in investments and give up on owning a home until I can pay cash? (If I can ever afford to pay cash because my money is in investments?)
I’m interested in hearing what other people think about this one.
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Your actions say you are an investor. A savings account is an investment. You’re saving for a purpose and you’re already out of debt. Hard to beat that — well done!
As for “non-necessity debt” — I think we all have it at some point. It’s not the unpardonable sin or anything like that. Our mind about it is the key: is it entrapping us into a lifestyle and mindset, or is our goal to get rid of it and move on to become investors?
Different people have different views on mortgage debt. Personally, I don’t look at a first mortgage as evil debt, but I’m not the ultimate authority (yet).
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Thanks for the response
At the moment, it’s somewhat evil for me because I’m seeing housing prices “correcting” (i.e. dropping!) throughout Canada. I can’t stomach the thought of going into debt for something that’s likely to drop in price. I don’t “need” to get into the market – I can wait it out.
I think you’re right about it boiling down people’s mindset. If debt is “normal” among your friends and family, then it’s hard to get around it.
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Real estate is an investment.
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There are different opinions about this. In my mind, your home is NOT an investment, and should not be regarded as such. It’s a shelter, a home.
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My house is both an investment and a home. And sometimes a white elephant.
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I agree. I want to buy a home to have a place to live — especially one that is paid off long before retirement. I expect it will hold its value or increase in value in the long run, but I wouldn’t buy a home if I couldn’t afford to invest and save for retirement as well.
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Mortgage debt is a better type of debt than most, but it’s still debt. We’ve been taught here in America that homes are ipso facto a good investment. A home depreciates, just like any other asset. It requires maintenance and upkeep. Home prices, for most of our history, tracked inflation, meaning your home didn’t actually appreciate, and in fact you likely lost money by paying for new wall paper and new rugs, roofs, furnaces, etc. It’s value is not fixed, and can drop. It’s true that you build equity and you don’t lose all of the money on rent, but when you rent, you’re not on a the hook for a new roof or stove if they break, and your credit is not destroyed if you lose your job. So, there’s a a certain level of risk you’re taking on for that equity. Recently, with help from Uncle Sam, Americans have been tricked into thinking that home prices magically go up more than other investments.
Almost every US President has had some initiative to get Americans to buy homes (sounds noble enough, right?). But not every American SHOULD own a home (including me), and the debt you take on to finance isn’t justified simply because it’s mortgage debt. Also, the plan usually backfires, like in 2008, and most of the programs of the government (low interest rates, mortgage interest deduction, capital gains exclusion, etc.) actually hurt homeowners.
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As long as you can pay your mortgage, I think it’s a great type of debt because if you didn’t have that debt, you would still be making monthly payments (They would just be called “rent” instead of “mortgage” and you would never see that money again). Once that debt is paid off you will have a better monthly cash flow and a good financial asset, but your better monthly cash flow would not exist if you hadn’t had that debt in the first place.
I think that’s what makes it a very unique debt.
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True, but even when your mortgage, utilities and taxes equal your rent, there are additional costs like repairs, renovations, furniture, decorating, etc. that make homeownership more expensive.
When I’m looking at homes (condos, in my case), I’m trying to picture the total cost of ownership, not the monthly payment. I understand why some people think rent is “money you never get back”, but so is mortgage interest, utilities on a larger home, decorating, repairs, etc. All the time people spend raking leaves and mowing the lawn is time they’ll never get back either.
It’s a puzzle, to be sure! So many different ways of looking at the situation.
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“A debtor is someone:” – I don’t agree with your definition. Sometimes you get into debt to buy thing which you can’t afford but which you NEED.
If you have two kids, living without a car will make your life very tough. So even if you can’t afford it (i.e. pay cash for it), it is okay to buy it.
We’ve all heard that “the rich buy assets, the poor buy liabilities”. A car is a liability. But why do the poor keep buying liabilities? Because they NEED them. You need a car and a laptop and a cell phone. You were not born into having them, so you have to buy them yourself. Sometimes – even with the cost of credit.
But who can live without a cell phone or a car these days?
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My husband has been without a cellphone for 2 months, and I “only” have a dumbphone… You’d be surprised what’s possible when it becomes necessary.
Plenty of people live without cars, too, even in places where you’d think it would be impossible. I believe that a car is essential in our town, but I know many international students who can’t have one because they don’t have driver’s licenses, and they get along somehow.
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I agree to a point, but there’s also a point where you’re going to be better off taking out a car loan and having much more flexibility in the jobs you can take (and thus possibly get a much higher paying job) then you are to just do without based on the idea that debt = evil. That’s where I think black-and-white dichotomies are an issue.
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But wouldn’t you agree that a student living without a car is quite a bit different from a family with children living without one in less walkable areas?
As far as cell phones go, I’m sure there are people who don’t need one. I don’t personally need a smartphone, although it certainly comes in handy and makes my job easier and more mobile. My husband absolutely does need a smartphone for his job (and he is reimbursed for it). I do, however, need at least a cellphone for my current lifestyle as do our older children. Not having phones would result in a complete lifestyle change as well force us to grub phones off friends – there are no payphones around.
So, while I do think it is generally possible for folks to borrow a cell phone in a pinch, owning your own no frills cell should be a financial priority for most people.
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The previous commenter didn’t ask how a family can live without a car. I was answering the question “who can?” by saying that there are people in my life without one or the other.
I think we tend to get stuck in boxes of thinking about needs vs. wants and turn a blind eye to the people among us who live without our “needs” every day. I did the same thing before my husband embarked on this cellphone-less existence and before we consolidated to one car, which taught me about the bus system in my city.
We should just admit that it is technically possible to live without the “needs” of a cell phone or car or a laptop or whatever but we choose to have them, even if that means incurring debt, because we are not willing to live that way. It’s much more empowering to actively choose that lifestyle than to feel forced into spending or taking on debt for something that we consider a need but that really isn’t. Getting outside of some of these needs vs. wants boxes can probably help a lot of people break out of the debt cycle in their lives.
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@Emily
Yes, in some cases it’s possible to get through your day without a laptop or cell phone. No one’s DIED of not owning a piece of technology
And by saying you need a cell phone and laptop I am not saying you need an expensive one!
Also, owning such devices is becoming more and more of a nessecity these days. Once, when electricity was new to the world, I’m sure many people said “We could do without that!” – but nowadays it’s unthinkable.
So my point was that sometimes you go into debt to buy a car or laptop not because you want to but because you NEED to, and that this could be a rational choice.
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I was an international student without a car. For me – then single, and living in a shared housing 15 min from the university – it was easy!
Now, married, with children, with needs to commute to/from jobs, and have a quick method of transportation in emergencies – I think living without one would be much MUCH more difficult.
Priorities are different for single people vs. people that have dependents, I think. I do believe, the common thing is looking for the best VALUE for the money. Debts are products, same as everything else, and one has to look for best value there too (i.e., drive old inefficient unsafe car vs. borrow to buy a safer/more reliable/better mileage/environmentally more sound vehicle)
Personally, I never had a car payment. But I can totally understand someone who borrows money (at good or even 0% interest rate) to make sure their family is SAFE
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No one on this planet needs a laptop. Are you kidding me?
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I’m self-employed. A laptop is required for presentations to clients, as well as getting work done between meetings. Now, you’re right, I could go without and find a different job. But I’d make a lot less money.
I’ll put a laptop in the ‘need’ category.
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Fine… put it in the need category for your job. But get a loan for it? No way!!! You better be making enough money to actually PAY for a laptop, if its a need, and not go into debt. Thats the issue here. And if you can’t buy it, you need to get a different job.
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Our culture has a mentality of not wanting to wait to buy stuff. Using debt to purchase a house can be a great way to leverage your finances. However, using debt to buy a new tv, living room furniture and stuff is just bad money skills.
And you’re right about the car payment. Once many people pay off their car one of the first things they do is drive it onto the lot to trade it in.
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I agree totally, dude. Our culture is one of debt. And when so many people are in debt and that’s the mentality, it’s hard to think a different way. AFter reading this I realized that my mind works in ‘debtor’ mode. It does. But a great way to go from debtor to investor probably actually starts with changing that mindset!
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Bingo!
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It doesn’t help that our government actually encourages this because it, and most Americans, think that spending and debt grow the economy (when in reality it’s production and savings that grow an economy).
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I hate when I hear that consumer spending went up so the economy is on the upswing. To me that means people are going further into debt and the people at the top, who don’t do debt, are getting richer.
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This article kind’ve reminds me of “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” in the sense that you are saying that investors buy things that help them create wealth and debtors buy things that make them look wealthy (even though they are not). It’s kind’ve cliche’ but all you have to do is look around you to see that it’s true. I like your article, William. Have a great day!
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I think William’s article is good, but if there’s a low percentage of “investors” among single-parents and people with debilitating medical conditions, it’s not necessarily because they love working.
Getting enough capital so you can invest and not have to work usually takes a lot of time, and often a lot of luck. It even took Warren Buffett until his late 20′s or early 30′s to get there, and he was obviously way ahead of the curve.
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As the old saying goes, “It takes money to make money.” You have to have it before you can invest it.
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What about the people who do both, though? There are plenty of people who invest despite having debt (good or bad). Technically I have student loan debt, but we have invested the cash we’ll use to pay it off while they are in deferment (and subsidized) – how does that action fit into your worldview?
I guess I’m neither of these yet. I’m not independently wealthy so I’m not an investor, but I don’t have the mindset of a debtor, either. I’m a burgeoning something – hopefully investor!
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I like the article, but agree with some of the other posters that there is more to it than a black/white dichotomy. In my view there is a continuum between debtor and investor. Your position on that continuum can change depending on many things. Attitude/mindset is certainly one of them, but as other posters have pointed out, personal circumstances, life stages, and obligations to others can affect where we stand as debtors/investors.
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I agree that whether you have debt or investments is a continuum, but the mindset is pretty much one or the other. Are you getting out of debt, or are you digging yourself further down?
We have a mortgage, but we’re paying it off aggressively and can’t wait to become investors!
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I enjoyed this article.
People want to make finance about numbers. It is really about psychology. In several ways your article illustrates that. Debtors and investors have a different psychology and that dictates their behavior which leads to unequal outcomes.
I’ve already seen several excuses written above for why people can’t change what they do. “Debt is a tool.” “Laptops are a need.” 10 years from now those same people will be in the same situation because they have the same Mindset.
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Nevertheless, debt IS a tool, and can be used wisely to change one’s circumstances for better.
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Doesn’t it depend on the specifics though?
I’m an IT consultant. I just ordered a $1700 laptop because that’s what I need to do my work efficiently. My vehicle on the other hand is a 1993 Cadillac DeVille hand-me-down from my sister with transmission, AC and battery problems.
Turned around, my uncle owns a dozen crew-cab trucks with plow attachments on front. He owns a snow plowing and yard care business in Alaska. His computer is a Walmart special and several years old.
For me, if I didn’t have liquid cash (or a CC float for the month) I would take out a loan to get the tools I need for work. My uncle has taken contracts which he didn’t have enough trucks for, and which wouldn’t pay till the end. He took out loans to buy the gear he needed to complete the projects.
I think these two stories are fairly clear cut, but there are many shades of grey between debt as a business tool, debt to enable non-needed large purchases and debt as vicious cycle of poverty.
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I think this hits the key point. Debt is a tool. It can be misused and it can be used badly. But hitting your thumb with a hammer doesn’t make the hammer a lousy tool. Nor that you should throw it out of your tool box.
But there is another side to this.
The consumer lending industry is a very lucrative business with lots of very smart people. They have developed credit ratings to identify people who will continue to make payments even when it is no longer in their interest. They have focus groups and market tests to see who will respond to different pitches. They design descriptions of their products that conceal information that would cause people to not use them.
The lending industry understands the cycle of debt very well. They understand that once “addicted”, people will become increasingly dependent on debt. They identify people who are vulnerable and look for opportunities to get them started.
In short, the consumer lending industry is predatory, whether its loan sharks, payday lenders or credit card companies. The people who understand that from the start are the ones most likely to avoid its traps. Those who naively believe they are “personally responsible”, that they are immune to industry manipulation, are most likely to get trapped.
There are three basic things to understand about consumer debt:
1) The lender doesn’t care that you can afford to ever pay back a loan, only that you will continue to make payments;
2) The lender does not care whether the loan is in your interest or not, only whether it will make them money;
3) The lender is not there to help or inform you. They are there to sell you on taking on debt, whether it makes financial sense or not.
4) The lender is operating with sophisticated research on your vulnerabilities and what is likely to entice you to take on debt.
The other thing to understand is that, unlike commercial lenders, the consumer lending industry has no interest in your success. If you borrow money for your business, your banker sees your business success as likely to lead to more business. Because successful businesses tend to take on more debt, not less.
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I think this article is pretty good (and in general I agree), but one thing it misses is opportunity cost. Sometimes it can be worth it to go into debt for a time if that can be regarded as an investment in yourself, and sometime choosing not to go into debt means reducing potential earnings (or savings) later on. Education costs come to mind, and so do mortgages (both of those with caveats, of course).
Am I happy about having student loans still? No, but I don’t think I could have made enough even working full-time through college to pay at that time (I couldn’t get high enough pay without a college education or further training in a particular field). I’m not particularly happy about having a mortgage either – but my monthly payment for the mortgage on a 3-bedroom house is lower than my previous monthly payment for a 2-bedroom apartment, and that differential is only likely to increase. It didn’t make sense to me to keep paying more for rental housing, even if it meant taking on debt.
I think my question for the author is what he would suggest in these cases. Since he appears to view being an investor as better than being a debtor in all cases, would he recommend against college if it’s impossible to pay for it up front? Would he recommend renting until it’s possible to pay for a house with cash (or would he recommend never buying a house)?
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Personally, I view education “debt” as a type of investment with the payoff (hopefully) of higher earning potential down the road. Whether or not I pay cash or borrow the funds, it’s still a calculated risk, just like any other investment. Not much different than getting a capital financier or angel investor for a new business venture, in my mind.
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“Not much different than getting a capital financier or angel investor for a new business venture, in my mind.”
I think that pretty much sums up the confusion between debt and investment in this article. They aren’t really related in the fashion described.
When you pay for your education you are investing your own money, whether you borrow it or not. You use debt because you want the education to help earn money to both pay for the education and make even more money.
When your business gets an angel investor or capital financier, the investors are sharing the risk. You are selling them a part of your business. They are betting their investment will help your business grow enough to give them a return. You are betting that the growth that results will more than make up the cost of sharing the profits with the investors.
In short, most investors use debt as one tool in their arsenal. The problem isn’t with borrowing money, its with the value received from the money when spent.
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I do think being an investor is optional, because there are so many people who haven’t done it. That said, investors definitely seem to live a more independent life. It is optional, but not optimal.
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The person I’ve known with the biggest debt problem (at least the biggest debt problem that I’ve known about) was there because he had no health insurance, ended up in the ICU with a nasty infection, and was there for about a week. This is someone who’d paid his own way through college and was debt-free because he’d been planning to move out of the country.
I’m not sure how something like that fits into your dichotomy.
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Is this article seriously arguing that having to work for a living = being a debtor? That not having accumulated enough independent wealth to pay for your food, shelter, and medical care for the rest of your life = being a debtor? That working is for suckers?
Maybe it’s not actually that extreme. Isn’t there a huge amount of space between people who are in debt to others, and people who are wealthy enough to not need to work? People who have an “investing” mindset, but simply don’t earn enough extra money to stop working? Where do you put all those people? Or are they just “debtors” because they “want stuff [like food and shelter] without having to wait”?
Please tell me I’m misreading.
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Agreed. I live debt free, but on a modest income. I cannot afford to stop working (nor would I want to).
And if everyone thought working a 9-5 job was for suckers, how would our society function?
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Have you ever watched The Andy Griffith Show episode where Howard Sprague retires early to a little tropical island for his eagerly awaited end to working? After a short time, he’s found at the local watering hole, ripping newspaper into strips like all the other islanders.
What the writer fails to cover is that, once one has invested “enough” through working, how does one stop working and sit on that beach all day with the tall drink watching native girls wearing coconuts for tops?
One doesn’t. Not working loses its allure fairly quickly, especially if you are used to working everyday.
Perhaps the article should have focused more on the “optionals” and “extras” of successful investing.
Oh, and by the way, successful investing can be done by people with very little to invest. I started out in the 90s with $50 a month to a Franklin Templeton Fund.
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The point is that an investor has the option to work or to not work. A debtor doesn’t have the luxury of that option.
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I think a lot of people are missing the point of this article. He’s pointing out the *mindset* of people who have made a “habit” of putting themselves into debt – without thinking through the decision. A credit card offer comes in the mail, so they sign up. (Woo hoo! Someone wants to “give” me $10,000!) Two weeks later when the ad for a new furniture set comes in the mail, they charge it. There was nothing wrong with the furniture they had, but the decision to become a debtor drove the later decision to buy new furniture (never mind that there was nothing “wrong” with the furniture a month ago).
Debt-minded folks who want immediate gratification (or the ‘latest & greatest’) pay off their car and immediately trade it in. They like to have “nice things” (because heck, I “deserve it”), so they go to the electronics store and finance a 52″ HDTV (I can “afford” the payments – never mind that they’re charging me the equivalent of 150% interest…)
People who take responsibility for their purchasing behavior (in general) don’t do these things. They research the cost vs. benefits before taking any sort of financial plunge – whether it is to incur more debt or to raid the “rainy day” fund. The difference is that an “investor” approaches these decisions more strategically than a reactive debtor.
It’s the difference between, “My car just died and I need a car to get to work. Can I find a good used/cheap car to get me from point A to point B while I save up for the longer-term car.”
versus
“My car just died and I need a car to get to work. I can “afford” the 7 year car loan payments for the “new” car, so I’ll get a new one right now.”
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Cars are an addiction to most people. Everyone I work with – from the Boss to the Managers to the Receptionists – leases a new car every three years. It’s one of the ways I can remember dates. (Oh, let’s see, Mary had the Lexus so it was 2003…) And they’re all top of the line vehicles, no $99 Hondas here.
Why have a car payment every month for your entire life?
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We’ve been car payment free for a few months now, and it’s seriously like one of us got a hefty raise at work! We have extra cash flow to put some on our snowball plan, and some in a “depreciation/replacement” fund (the cars will wear out eventually…).
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You are spot on with your comment.
As I read these other comments, what I’m seeing is justification for taking on debt. Sure there is “good” debt and there is “bad” debt, but that is not what I think the author is implying. What it comes down to is the mindset that you discussed. Having debt is not a way of life if you want to get ahead. If you continue to rely on debt, you are a debtor.
My wife and I had student loans. As we look at purchasing a rental property we are going to have to take out a loan. But these are investments, and debt I do not consider “bad.” As we look at purchasing a vehicle, because our family is getting larger, we are saving so that we do not have to make payments. We do not want to take out a loan, we want to pay in cash for that vehicle because it is not an investment.
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The author is absolutely saying that there is no such thing as good debt, in their moral characterization of ‘a debtor’.
Which is their right. It’s certainly the right of GRS writers and readers to look down their noses at people who have debt and/or who find themselves needing to take on debt that they can’t afford to wait for or work around.
In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, though, I’ve got less than no sympathy for that black-and-white Calvinistic judgement.
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Regarding the negative-dichotomy comments: Buying a car that drives with cash is a smart move, buying a brand new car that represents over half of your income (or whatever %) is not so smart. Same with a home in terms of buying something that is reasonable for your income and needs. In both of those cases though, I think the important distinction between investment and debt is a return on investment or cost of money (debt). If you are weighing those things when you make these choices you are very likely an “investor” and if you are making choices without considering return/cost you are more likely to be of the debtor mentality.
I see this with my friends all the time though – and agree with the article. When I purchase a car or house I consider what I need to fulfill the purpose and research appropriate choices then save cash/downpayment to meet that minimum requirement and look for the right deal. Most of my friends want a car or a house that looks like this or is in this neighborhood then try to figure out what the best payment they can get is.
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Many commentators have talked about dichotomies and I am in somewhat agreement with them. To me, debt can be good or bad. If you are buying assets with your debt (such as a house) and not overleveraged, then great. Education is another capital expense for which debt can be good. But if you are borrowing to pay for furniture (that loses 20% of the value the first day) or worse yet, paying for vacation or meals with debt, you are already trapped in the sinkhole of lifelong debt.
But the primary thrust of the article is that in order to free yourself from the idiosyncrasies of others, getting out of debt is crucial. We should never forget that…
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I really like this article. The one question I have is the difference between saving and investing. I have investment accounts for retirement savings, but for house, car, travel funds, I use savings accounts (ING Direct if anyone is curious).
One thing that this article made me realize is that, once I paid off my student loan debt, I started saving, but it was all saving for additional stuff (car, house, etc.). Beyond a 401K (which I don’t max out) and a Roth IRA, I don’t have any “future” savings. By this I mean general savings that would help me to retire early, although I do have an emergency fund. I’m curious how that fits in and whether I should focus more on investment as opposed to the easy and safe savings accounts.
I’m trying the transition from debt to no debt and it’s been surprisingly difficult and stressful. I constantly feel like I’m not doing enough…
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Hi Katie,
I’m sort of in the same boat as you – I have retirement savings, no debt, and savings towards a house/car, but no “mid-life” savings, as it were. I’d look into something like a non-qualified account. It’s still investing, but without the tax benefits of the 401k/IRA. Once that’s established, start throwing some money into it each money and see how it goes.
I also think it’s harder to be without debt. With debt, you know exactly where all your money is going. Without it, you have all these possible things to save for and you can always save more (after all, can you ever really have too much money saved for retirement?).
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I understand your mentality. It’s very similar to the leader vs. follower mentality.
My ultimate idol is Warren Buffett. I hope to be like him one day! He still lives in the same Nebraska house he purchased when he was on a modest salary.
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This may be my favorite GRS article. It’s funny how we think investing is too complicated. Sports fans can rattle off the rules and the stats of their favorite teams and athletes without even thinking, girls know more styles of and designers of shoes than I know exist, but P/E ratios, cumulative preferred shares, and cash flow are too much? Come on!
Another thing to keep in mind is that consumer debt is bad for the economy. When you borrow to buy a car, that car’s value goes to zero. When an entrepreneur borrows to buy capital goods, like a factory, he can make goods for others to enjoy. He can make a production process cheaper and more efficient, allowing consumers to get the same goods for less money. So, if you get to a point where you are living solely on investment income, you can take pride and joy in the fact that your money is making the lives of others better, while making more money for you at the same time! It’s a win win. We’ve been taught that the people who achieve this are evil, though.
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I’m not sure about all this mindset talk. Sure, investing is optional if success is not a priority. It’s important to get started investing as early as possible. Make mistakes when your capital is small and you’ll avoid them later on in life.
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I thought the article was extremely general. Yeah, of course, debts make you far less flexible, taking away a lot of choices. Yet, sometimes it is wise to takle on debts (I aam glad I took out my student loans – without my degree I would not be able to get the excellent job I have now, and degree lasts a lifetime!). Having a mortgage smetimes pays off, allowing one much better accomodation for cheaper price, accumulating equity along the way. Borrowing money to develop one’s business frequently pays off too. Heck, even borrowing to buy a SAFER car for your kids is a wise decision, I think (rather than driving an unsafe vehicle – rather in debt than dead or injured)
Of course, one has to be wise and calculate the risks: stories abound of people stupidly and carelessly borrowing on terrible terms, with no prospects to be able to handle the debt load.
I do wonder, though – how much does one need invested to live off those investments? Realistically, I think one can probably expect no more than 4-5% income off the capital, so for very modest living in the US, a minimum of half million needs to be invested. Not an easy sum to come by ….
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Great article, William. You’re right – it’s all about the attitude. And I think some of the commentators missed that. You’re not a debtor because you have debt; you’re a debtor because the first thought that comes to mind when you want to buy something is that you can buy it with debt, rather than waiting and saving. An investor may not be debt free, but someone with that mindset is certainly trying to figure out how to be debt free, and how and where to invest their money so that it makes money for them. It’s all in the mind set.
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I like this article and I like it a lot.
Yes as Holly says it’s reminiscent of Kiyosaki, except that William doesn’t try to convince you to start flipping houses in Phoenix or Nevada (oh, the laughs of reading “Rich Dad” in retrospective).
And as CincyCat says, it’s about the mentality of a person, not their actual financial position.
I’m staunchly pro-work and I don’t think this article is anti-work at all. This article is only against the indentured servitude of the monthly payment lifestyle.
Great job William– looking forward to reading more articles from you. Very inspiring.
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Some here understand the overlying principle you have conveyed. Good! If it helps just one 20 something/ recent grad to think about it, embrace or adjust their position and understand the difference—your work has had tremendous impact. Savers v. Spenders, Investors v. Debtors, Owners v. Renters, Necessity v. Convenience, Freedom v. Burden… A mindset that a person needs to intuitively extrapolate early on, to mingle in an economy that absolutely requires both.
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The problem with most of the responses (attributed to the negative tone to being a “debtor” in the article) is that being a debtor is not necessarily bad. The author chooses to create the dichotomy for a greater contrast. The problem with this is that a person can be a “debtor” but in reality have no real debt (maybe a mortage, but according to article thats an investment). But he goes on to classify debtors as continually buying new cars. So am I an investor if I drive the same rust bucket for 20 years?
Working every day for a wage and saving for retirement and saving for other things. Would that make you a debtor or investor? Or is a debtor just a person who spends everything (and then some).
The only real difference is how one attains their income. There is no real loser here. Mind you there are many “investors” who are heavily in debt and there are many “debtors” that have more than enough to retire on.
This article seems to miss alot
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“You need a car and a laptop and a cell phone” and if you can’t afford them, buy them on credit. Yes, that’s the voice of a person with debtor-mentality. Seriously.
Some people need a car (those who can’t either use public transit or pay someone to get them to a job). Anyone who needs a laptop for work has it paid for. Anyone who needs a cellphone for work has it paid for (or should–complain to your workplace if they require you to have either and won’t pay for it). My husband makes well into 6 figures and doesn’t have a cellphone. I have a $100/year pay-as-you-go phone for emergencies. And I’d sure miss having a laptop, but it isn’t a necessity. Food, shelter and clothing (and nothing fancy in any of those categories) are necessities. Cellphones and laptops are definitely luxuries.
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Great article! I always try to think like an investor because I want to retire early and work if I want to, not because I have to.
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Investing is of course optional, it is a matter of whether or not you want to live on a budget for the rest of your life, or have financial freedom and build wealth. I think the idea that you are what you do is true in may areas of life, especially relating to what you talk about here.
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I greatly enjoyed this article and it is certainly one of the best I’ve read here in a long while.
I’ve never thought about this idea in such concrete terms, but you’ve hit the nail on the head. Dave Ramsey helped turn my mindset from a debtor to an investor. It sounds ridiculous to say it, but it never occurred to me that I could buy a car without getting a loan.
Now we are debt-free except the mortgage, and will be free of that within two years. I would say we’re investors, although we’re not quite independently wealthy. I’ve ‘graduated’ from Dave Ramsey and moved on to Mr. Money Mustache, who advocates this exact mindset shift: stop being a mindless consumer (Debtor) and start saving so you can retire early (Investor).
You are right though: I’m sort of terrified about what we’ll do with the $2,500+ that we are throwing on the mortgage each month. The options are endless, then. Its unsettling and unnerving, just like you said. It would have been much easier to keep making the minimum payment for 30 years and paid the bank $400k in interest. But now we’re actively managing our money decisions. Its scary but worth it.
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I LOVE Mr. Money Mustache!
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I’ve spent the past 5 months getting educated on personal finance principles with the support of my local library and the internet. This article resonated with me because I have been holding back on reading the investment books until I am closer to being completely debt free. But it is my intention to go on a deep-dive to learn about investment strategies once I reach that point, hopefully in the next 12-18 months. I felt early on in this process that I needed a clear post-debt strategy or else I might end up spending too much with the new found surplus in my budget. I have my eye on roughly following the advice in David Bach’s Automatic Millionaire for this phase–to automate my investment “payments” quickly after my debts are cleared in order to change my habit from making debt payments to making investment payments. But here are the twists to my case/opinions: I don’t think that the debt that my DH and I are now working to eliminate is bad (small student loan and 2 small car loans). Also, throughout this process we are currently putting away 29% of our gross in savings, 401ks, and IRAs. Before I started learning about PF we were putting away 13%, after the debt is paid we’ll be able to put away/invest 41%. And I completely attribute this to an overall, gradual shift in my mindset from debtor to investor.
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This article is *amazing*! Toughest love on GRS in a long, long time.
I’m sure there will be a lot of “But my situation is different because…,” arguments thrown out, but that’s the hallmark of a debtor. Everyone thinks their own situation is “different”.
Debt is an (the) emergency to your financial freedom. Get rid of it ASAP and forever before you do absolutely anything else. What good is buying any investment which gives you an 8% return if you’re paying 20% interest on a chunk of debt? It just doesn’t make any sense.
There’s a lot of folks just piddling around with numbers on PF sites, people who like the idea of having money, enjoy reading theories and waxing poetic, but aren’t serious in practice about it. The more articles we have like this, the greater the reminder that financial freedom is in reach if we truly buckle down get serious about it.
Well done, William!
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, Edward. But as a counterpoint to your middle paragraph, just for thought, what good is paying off a 1% interest car loan if you could instead invest for 8% return (or even 1.64% on an Ally Bank 5-year CD)? I loved this article!
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I agree completely. The bifurcation between the two mindsets is as clear and concise as I’ve ever seen it articulated. And, while I agree that many if not most of us have some debt with which we have to live, it is the approach to it that is important: a necessary evil to be rid of as soon as possible, or a means to an end of a lifestyle one can’t afford.
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The first thing to do is make sure that income exceeds expenses. Doing this results in savings. So, at a minimum, having savings is a great start.
However, if one aspires for at least some degree of financial freedom, things must go to then next step: taking savings and investing it. There is negative rate of return attached to stuffing money under a mattress or burying it in the backyard. Not much better in bank accounts. But investing it, with proper asset allocation, can do wonders for one’s long-term finances.
Rate of return really matters a lot.!
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One of the best articles on GRS this year truly a light bulb moment for me !
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“And so, when Danny Debtor’s car payment ends, he buys another car, one with a new set of payments. Is this because the car he just paid off happened to just die on him? No, it’s because he’s used to making payments. If he had to stop making car payments, he wouldn’t know what to do with the money that went into the payment. Maybe I lived in Orange County for too long, but almost everyone around us had this mind-set. ”
Yeah, you did live in Orange County too long. The logistics of living without a _reliable_ car(s) in places where public transit is unreliable is really quite beyond you, isn’t it?
If you have to have a reliable car, and you buy a used car, even if it’s paid off, you will need to be making ‘car payments’ in parts (and, if you don’t do your own auto work, shop fees). Depending on how much you can save by not paying a payment to a bank, you may end up shelling out more to keep that car on the road than it would cost to buy a new one.
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I hear this excuse all the time. I have driven paid-off used cars for my whole adult life and have never spent more keeping one on the road than I did on the payments. I am currently driving a paid-off 12 year old truck in great condition that has only needed regular maintenance in all the time I’ve had it.
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I agree completely. We bought an 8 year old used car with bad A/C on a 3 year loan (which we paid off about a year early), then paid to fix the A/C later. All told, we have spent far less for the car overall (including the new A/C) than we would have spent if making 5 years’ worth of payments on a “newer” car, that would still be 5 years “older” by the time it was paid off.
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The big thing this article is making me think about is the idea that once a debt is paid off, people tend to pick up a new debt because that is what they are used to.
I will count myself lucky, then! In 2009 I bought a car with an auto loan; in 2010 the car broke down and the repairs were unaffordable and not covered by the warranty or lemon laws. Just last month I finished paying off the car, which has been broken down in our parking lot for the past two years and serving as a storage unit. A very expensive storage unit, since I needed to pay full insurance on it in additional to the $400 monthly loan payments.
From this experience, the last thing I want to do is get into any kind of debt again! (Except maybe a mortgage, which is very different IMO.) I have fantasized for two years about which retirement funds and targeted savings accounts this money could be going into. I’ve also had the opportunity to see what terrible things we get used to with cars– searching for parking, parking and moving violations, needing quarters for parking, expensive repairs (I’m bummed if a bike repair costs more than twenty dollars; when my car was running I was thrilled if a repair cost less than $200), and of course, drinking and driving issues.
(I am also a 30-year old with no kids, so I have the privilege of flexibility in what I “need”…)
However, I’m having trouble categorizing myself as a debtor or an investor. I have no debt and I sock away money for retirement and targeted savings, but I definitely still need to work because my investments don’t make nearly enough to support me. So where does that put me?
A bad investor, maybe?
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I know this isn’t the larger point you’re trying to make, but you may be able to get a reduction in your insurance costs if the car is basically “parked”. When my grandma had to be hospitalized for a long-term illness, I(as her POA) got her insurance down to a tiny fraction of her regular cost because she was not driving the car. Something to check into…
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Luckily, the car is paid off and off my insurance now, but even as a registered non-op I had to pay full insurance because the bank still owned it.
Thank you for the suggestion, though!
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Why invest? My government will take care of me.
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I categorize myself as a strategic debtor. Yes, I have debt. Yes, I have used convenience checks from a credit card, taken out student loans and car loans, and have had debts I don’t pay ahead on because they are low interest. However, the point isn’t that I have incurred this debt because I can’t wait and need it now, it’s because after careful consideration, it was what I considered the best option. I also invest a fair amount – around 15% of our gross income – across a wide variety of accounts.
You know that amazing mind shift that you had after you paid off your car? I too had an amazing mind shift after realizing the power of leverage, and the importance of liquidity. Maybe someday you’ll realize it too.
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I grew up with depression era parents who only invested in businesses and real estate. My first inveestment outside my primary residence was in income property. It turns out, I did very well! It lead to financial freedom and other businesses. The first step is the hardest!
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Great post! As has been already stated, our culture has a mentality that is so averse to waiting. It’s one that’s fine with taking on debt to get the latest and greatest thing without batting an eyelash. Sure, it’s fun to have, but not worth the debt. I would consider myself an investor. You just have to be in order to get ahead and make your money work for you.
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I can’t be the only person who found the “holier-than-thou” attitude throughout this entire article profoundly offensive, can I?
Not only that, the entire premise of the article is flawed from the outset by setting up a false dichotomy. People aren’t either “investors” or “debtors”, most people are some combination of both.
This article suggests that it’s a no-brainer, that everybody can be a brilliant financial day-trader and spend their time “by a pool in Cancun and sipping piña coladas” instead of working like a sucker, but everybody knows this is BS.
The ghost-writer analogy makes no sense whatsoever.
“The wonderful thing about investments is you can recover, and even sell them any time. The moment they look like they might go south, sell” – This is literally the worst financial advice I have ever seen published anywhere.
The ONLY valuable point made is that you should take some time to learn more about investing, but it’s made in a way that that sets completely unreasonable goals, downplays the risks, and treats anybody in debt as if they are irresponsible little brats who are too stupid to live the high life.
I really can’t believe this article was posted, is there no editorial process?
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You do realize this is Get Rich Slowly (as opposed to You’re Poor and You Suck), right?
The website is about helping people – providing useful information and tools for overcoming financial burdens, mindsets, whatever. It shouldn’t be that difficult to read through the lines and link the article to that ultimate purpose.
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As far as I can tell, people who live off their investments are usually using other people’s money to invest. Donald Trump didn’t go bankrupt, his businesses did.
The idea you are going to save enough to live off your investments is doubtful. If you save 20% of your take home earnings and get a 4% return over inflation, it will take you about 40 years to save enough to live at that same level in retirement. And even at that, you might want to enjoy a few pina coladas along the way, because you still won’t be any better able to afford them when you retire.
Debt is a tool, just like a hammer. Some people here seem to have hit their thumb and blamed the problem on using a hammer.
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Now that I’ve gotten rid of all my debt, I’ve been looking into ways to get into the other side, investing (outside of retirement funds). I don’t have a lot of extra $ to work with, so I recently signed up with one of the peer-to-peer lending sites. I’m excited to see the ball start rolling, even though it’s a pretty small ball right now. You gotta start somewhere, right?
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Excellent article! I’m a huge fan of the straight-forward approach. Less wishy-washy compromise and don’t be afraid to ruffle the feathers!
One interesting typo early on (apologies if someone already pointed it out) changes the intent a bit until you realize it was a typo:
“… choose whether to be a debtor to an investor”
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If you want to be an investor, but find self-teaching daunting, I recommend interviewing some local fee-only investment advisors. You may find someone who can help you with a plan, and who has a good track record for return on investment.
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This was a very good article. It actually challenged the reader to think…hard. Thank you.
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Awesome article. Kept thinking, i wish this is true, while reading it. Then i was thinking that something was wrong, i didn’t want to be seduced by a feel-good article. Then i started making rationalizations such as; it didn’t deny the possibility of a person changing theyre mindset from debtor to investor. Then i finally found the point of the article; An investor mindset can be chosen. Something has to happen for a person to change from debtor to investor mindset. Some event must trigger it. Like taking an article too personally and getting offended and then re-evaluating..
What is a choice, is there really free will? On the latter i’d say no, but that is more of a philosophical assessment, for all practical purposes it is ok to assume there is. You can not comprehend all the things that affect your decision making precisely enough to be able to predict future actions. In my opinnion a choice is the sum of previous experiences, weighted by relevance, exposure.. the point i’m hoping to get to is, that those experiences will change. New experiences will add to who you are.
You can argue both sides. So there is valid credible arguments of the benefits of both a Debtor and Investor mindset. The more arguments you accept for either will add to your experiences and make you more likely to act according to that mindset.
It is unfortunate that currently most easily accessible arguments are for the Debtor mindset i.e. Advertisement.
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Do you suggest using a financial adviser for investments or trying it out on your own (if you don’t have a lot of money to start off with, let’s say around $1000).
-Cat
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With all the laudatory posts, I am going to repeat what I said earlier in clearer terms.
This article provides poor analysis and even worse advice.
If you want to live off investments you need to take risk. That means borrowing money to invest aka going into debt. Without leveraging your own money with borrowed money, your chances of earning enough from investments to live on is very small.
That’s why when people retire their largest asset is often their home. They bought it with mostly borrowed money and they got all the appreciation for its full value.
Yes, they paid a lot in interest. But a lot of that interest was paid with dollars whose value was diluted by inflation.
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Fantastic article, William. Lots to chew on here.
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William,
Good article, thought provoking. I like and appreciate your points. I am one of those people who hasn’t been paying much attention to investments lately.
Thank you for the push:)
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