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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:37 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1957
Eagle wrote:
VinTek wrote:
Eagle,

You need to read this article. I think it does a good job of addressing your concerns with the law, particularly your concerns regarding job loss, federal takeover of healthcare and the contention that this is better left to the free market.


I'll take a look at it VinTek thanks. Out of curiosity where are you from?

Would still like to know what you think. But to add a bit of new information, read http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/19/opinion/carroll-health-care-act-savings/index.html. It not only talks about the HRL, it talks about what it does to help reduce the national debt (on a net basis, after savings are accounted for).

Basically, the folks who make cases against the HRL leave out a ton of information that refutes their arguments. I understand that; it's human nature to only hear what you want to hear. But that doesn't make it right.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:27 pm 
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I wanted to get people's take on a couple of things:

First a funny quote I found this week - Bill O'Reily: "President Obama is not a socialist or communist... President Obama is a Social Justice Anti-Capitalist.

Bill O'Reily's ideas:

Quote:
"The President is a relcutant capitalist (the system is stacked against the poor and working class; the predatory system rewards the wealthy and restrains the poor) – not a socialist or communist.

President Obama wants to restrain capitalism through taxation. Give what you get/make to other people.

The President doesn’t want to sieze public property. Instead, the President wants to regulate commerce to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor.

President Obama is shaped by Historical Grievences such as Slavery in the U.S. and Europe, Bad treatment of Indians, and U.S. exploitation of 3rd world countries. The President views the U.S. as the bad guy.

President Obama is a Social Justice Anti-Capitalist.

The big spending by President Obama hasn’t helped the economy. The liberal economic vision set by President Obama has increased the debt in the country significantly.

President Obama’s focus is to take from those who have some and redistribute it to those who have less – this is about class warfare. Will the President succeed in winning the election on this platform?"



See: http://video.foxnews.com/v/1743930340001/the-real-barack-obama-has-finally-stood-up/?playlist_id=87262&intcmp=obnetwork

Do you agree or disagree?

Second what do you think of this article in the Washington Post?

Quote:
Obama: The Affirmative Action President. WASHINGTON POST. Written by : Matt Patterson

Years from now, historians may regard the 2008 election of Barack Obama as an inscrutable and disturbing phenomenon, a baffling breed of mass hysteria akin perhaps to the witch craze of the Middle Ages. How, they will wonder, did a man so devoid of professional accomplishment beguile so many into thinking he could manage the world’s largest economy, direct the world’s most powerful military, execute the world’s most consequential job?



Imagine a future historian examining Obama’s pre-presidential life: ushered into and through the Ivy League despite unremarkable grades and test scores along the way; a cushy non-job as a “community organizer”; a brief career as a state legislator devoid of legislative achievement (and in fact nearly devoid of his attention, so often did he vote “present”) ; and finally an unaccomplished single term in the United States Senate, the entirety of which was devoted to his presidential ambitions. He left no academic legacy in academia, authored no signature legislation as a legislator.



And then there is the matter of his troubling associations: the white-hating, America-loathing preacher who for decades served as Obama’s “spiritual mentor”; a real-life, actual terrorist who served as Obama’s colleague and political sponsor. It is easy to imagine a future historian looking at it all and asking: how on Earth was such a man elected president?



Not content to wait for history, the incomparable Norman Podhoretz addressed the question recently in the Wall Street Journal:



To be sure, no white candidate who had close associations with an outspoken hater of America like Jeremiah Wright and an unrepentant terrorist like Bill Ayers, would have lasted a single day. But because Mr. Obama was black, and therefore entitled in the eyes of liberaldom to have hung out with protesters against various American injustices, even if they were a bit extreme, he was given a pass.



Let that sink in: Obama was given a pass — held to a lower standard — because of the color of his skin. Podhoretz continues:



And in any case, what did such ancient history matter when he was also so articulate and elegant and (as he himself had said) “non-threatening,” all of which gave him a fighting chance to become the first black president and thereby to lay the curse of racism to rest?



Podhoretz puts his finger, I think, on the animating pulse of the Obama phenomenon — affirmative action. Not in the legal sense, of course. But certainly in the motivating sentiment behind all affirmative action laws and regulations, which are designed primarily to make white people, and especially white liberals, feel good about themselves.



Unfortunately, minorities often suffer so that whites can pat themselves on the back. Liberals routinely admit minorities to schools for which they are notqualified, yet take no responsibility for the inevitable poor performance and high drop-out rates which follow. Liberals don’t care if these minority students fail; liberals aren’t around to witness the emotional devastation and deflated self esteem resulting from the racist policy that is affirmative action. Yes, racist.



Holding someone to a separate standard merely because of the color of his skin — that’s affirmative action in a nutshell, and if that isn’t racism, then nothing is. And that is what America did to Obama.


True, Obama himself was never troubled by his lack of achievements, but why would he be? As many have noted, Obama was told he was good enough for Columbia despite undistinguished grades at Occidental; he was told he was good enough for the US Senate despite a mediocre record in Illinois ; he was told he was good enough to be president despite no record at all in the Senate. All his life, every step of the way, Obama was told he was good enough for the nextstep, in spite of ample evidence to the contrary. What could this breed if not the sort of empty narcissism on display every time Obama speaks?



In 2008, many who agreed that he lacked executive qualifications nonetheless raved about Obama’s oratory skills, intellect, and cool character. Those people — conservatives included — ought now to be deeply embarrassed. The man thinks and speaks in the hoariest of clichés, and that’s when he has his teleprompter in front of him; when the prompter is absent he can barely think or speak at all. Not one original idea has ever issued from his mouth — it’s all warmed-over Marxism of the kind that has failed over and over again for 100 years.



And what about his character? Obama is constantly blaming anything and everything else for his troubles. Bush did it; it was bad luck; I inherited this mess. It is embarrassing to see a president so willing to advertise his own powerlessness, so comfortable with his own incompetence. But really, what were we to expect? The man has never been responsible for anything, so how do we expect him to act responsibly?



In short: our president is a small and small-minded man, with neither the temperament nor the intellect to handle his job. When you understand that, and only when you understand that, will the current erosion of liberty and prosperity make sense. It could not have gone otherwise with such a man in the Oval Office.


Do you agree or disagree?

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Eagle wrote:
I wanted to get people's take on a couple of things:


You refer to two COMMENTATORS! They are expressing their opinion not reporting the news. Those are not articles they are political opinion pieces.

Did you bother to fact-check the information before forming your opinion? Or are you just going to believe what the articles say on faith? Because I found very few facts that can even be verified. So how could someone even begin to form an opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:17 pm 
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DoingHomework wrote:
Eagle wrote:
I wanted to get people's take on a couple of things:


You refer to two COMMENTATORS! They are expressing their opinion not reporting the news. Those are not articles they are political opinion pieces.

Did you bother to fact-check the information before forming your opinion? Or are you just going to believe what the articles say on faith? Because I found very few facts that can even be verified. So how could someone even begin to form an opinion?


Notice I did say "a couple of things"... But yes the article was in fact in the Washington Post.

I guess I should specify my questions.

Do you agree or disagree with O'Reily on the fact that Obama isn't a communist or socialist - and instead a social justice anti-capitalist?

What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy? I'd love a reference to a date, time, and place.

Also do you agree or disagree President Obama has shown evidence of narcissism?

Curious.

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:26 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
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Eagle wrote:
Notice I did say "a couple of things"... But yes the article was in fact in the Washington Post.

I guess I should specify my questions.

Do you agree or disagree with O'Reily on the fact that Obama isn't a communist or socialist - and instead a social justice anti-capitalist?

What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy? I'd love a reference to a date, time, and place.

Also do you agree or disagree President Obama has shown evidence of narcissism?

Curious.

Just as I'm curious about your take on the 2 HRL articles I linked to earlier. And the questions I had regarding the article you linked to regarding the Pharoah's heart. Seriously Eagle, I think every time the information presented isn't going your way, you change the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:49 pm 
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VinTek wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Notice I did say "a couple of things"... But yes the article was in fact in the Washington Post.

I guess I should specify my questions.

Do you agree or disagree with O'Reily on the fact that Obama isn't a communist or socialist - and instead a social justice anti-capitalist?

What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy? I'd love a reference to a date, time, and place.

Also do you agree or disagree President Obama has shown evidence of narcissism?

Curious.

Just as I'm curious about your take on the 2 HRL articles I linked to earlier. And the questions I had regarding the article you linked to regarding the Pharoah's heart. Seriously Eagle, I think every time the information presented isn't going your way, you change the subject.


I looked at the articles on Obamacare. While they were both interesting I remain unconvinced Obamacare in it's current form would be a good decision overall.

Regarding Pharaoh’s heart if you will look back I did post and point out that I reserved the right not to discuss things regarding religion at my discretion. But I did in fact attempt to answer the question to the best of my understanding. However, I'm not an expert on the topic of Predestination or Free Will theologically. Nor am I interested in pursuing the topic further. Suffice to say there is evidence of Man’s choice and of God’s prerogative in the Bible. Not that it matters since there is evidence in this thread and it is my opinion most of you (VinTek, DoingHomework, and kombat) don’t believe in God to begin with. Why discuss something that in your mind doesn't even exist? I've determined that the discussion regarding religion can often be somewhat fruitless. Perhaps face to face might actually work. But alas...

Therefore back to politics. ;)

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~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Eagle wrote:
Also do you agree or disagree President Obama has shown evidence of narcissism?


I can not think of any US politician since Millard Fillmore that did not show evidence of narcisisism.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Eagle wrote:
What did Obama accomplish before he became President?


As far as I am concerned his only accomplishment that matters is defeating McCain/Palin in a democratic election that did not require the intervention of the supreme court. Last I checked, that gives him the qualification for being president.

I'm guessing that you hate the guy for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:03 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
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Eagle wrote:
VinTek wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Notice I did say "a couple of things"... But yes the article was in fact in the Washington Post.

I guess I should specify my questions.

Do you agree or disagree with O'Reily on the fact that Obama isn't a communist or socialist - and instead a social justice anti-capitalist?

What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy? I'd love a reference to a date, time, and place.

Also do you agree or disagree President Obama has shown evidence of narcissism?

Curious.

Just as I'm curious about your take on the 2 HRL articles I linked to earlier. And the questions I had regarding the article you linked to regarding the Pharoah's heart. Seriously Eagle, I think every time the information presented isn't going your way, you change the subject.


I looked at the articles on Obamacare. While they were both interesting I remain unconvinced Obamacare in it's current form would be a good decision overall.

Why? And by that, I mean what information do you have that counters the contents of those article? The articles themselves do address many of the concerns you had at the outset of this thread. If they don't convince you, that's fine; you're entitled to your own opinion. I just want to understand your counterarguments. Are the articles factually wrong? Which facts? Do you have other facts that aren't addressed by the articles? We already agree that it's not it's not the best thing. But what would be better? And when, realistically, could we actually address the problems instead of kicking the can down the road again? We've been kicking this thing around for over half a century now. I tend to raise a skeptical eyebrow at any claims that it needs more study.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:21 am 

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Eagle wrote:
What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy?


LOL! I love this! Obama has accomplished more in the past 3 years than Bush accomplished in 8. So what do we do? Attack how unaccomplished he was before he became president!

Who gives a crap what he accomplished as an obscure state senator? We're 3 years into a presidency - why are we talking about what he did (or didn't do) half a decade ago? Do you honestly think anybody cares more about what he did as a senator than all the things he's accomplished as president?

He's ended two wars.
He's killed the worlds #1 terrorist.
He made health care accessible to 30 million uninsured Americans.
He brought Iran to the brink of collapse without firing a shot or risking a single troop.
He helped depose and eliminate a military dictator in Libya.

And so on and so on. Yes he's dealing with a crappy economy. Guess what - EVERYBODY is. That's not a problem unique to Obama or the US. Countries in Europe are in economic shambles, literally going bankrupt left and right. The US isn't perfect, but it's in much better shape than Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, etc. etc. etc.

But geez, it's an election year, how are we supposed to attack this guy? I know, let's point out how "unaccomplished" he was in high school! LOL!

It's so desperate and pathetic that it's laughable.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:40 am 
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DoingHomework wrote:
Eagle wrote:
What did Obama accomplish before he became President?


As far as I am concerned his only accomplishment that matters is defeating McCain/Palin in a democratic election that did not require the intervention of the supreme court. Last I checked, that gives him the qualification for being president.

I'm guessing that you hate the guy for some reason.


Actually no I don't hate the guy. I do dislike many of his policies though.

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~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:48 am 
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kombat wrote:
Eagle wrote:
What did Obama accomplish before he became President? When has President Obama ever taken responsibility for what is going wrong with the country/economy?


LOL! I love this! Obama has accomplished more in the past 3 years than Bush accomplished in 8. So what do we do? Attack how unaccomplished he was before he became president!

Who gives a crap what he accomplished as an obscure state senator? We're 3 years into a presidency - why are we talking about what he did (or didn't do) half a decade ago? Do you honestly think anybody cares more about what he did as a senator than all the things he's accomplished as president?

He's ended two wars.
He's killed the worlds #1 terrorist.
He made health care accessible to 30 million uninsured Americans.
He brought Iran to the brink of collapse without firing a shot or risking a single troop.
He helped depose and eliminate a military dictator in Libya.

And so on and so on. Yes he's dealing with a crappy economy. Guess what - EVERYBODY is. That's not a problem unique to Obama or the US. Countries in Europe are in economic shambles, literally going bankrupt left and right. The US isn't perfect, but it's in much better shape than Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, etc. etc. etc.

But geez, it's an election year, how are we supposed to attack this guy? I know, let's point out how "unaccomplished" he was in high school! LOL!

It's so desperate and pathetic that it's laughable.


So let's see, Kombat is Canadian, yet he seems to have better information about our government than our Texan friend here. That doesn't say much for our educational system or our electoral process.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:53 am 
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DoingHomework wrote:
So let's see, Kombat is Canadian, yet he seems to have better information about our government than our Texan friend here. That doesn't say much for our educational system or our electoral process.


I live in Texas remember? I came to the U.S. to live at the age of 18 for college opportunities. And I'm still finishing my reply post and will post shortly. ;)

At the risk of bringing out Pandora's box: Out of curiosity I know kombat has no children... And really doesn't plan to. DoingHomework I believe is the same. What about the other posters on the thread?

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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:34 am 
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kombat wrote:
Who gives a crap what he accomplished as an obscure state senator? We're 3 years into a presidency - why are we talking about what he did (or didn't do) half a decade ago? Do you honestly think anybody cares more about what he did as a senator than all the things he's accomplished as president?


So let’s talk about more important issues shall we?

1. Legacy: President Obama has loaded up every child in this nation with more debt than any President in history. The U.S. debt has increased over $5 trillion incurred in his three and half years. That puts U.S. total debt over 14 trillion dollars and counting. This is nearly triple what it was when President Obama took office.

2. Economy: With his policies and the threat of more such policy, he has destroyed more wealth than any human being in history, which is always what happens when you set out to redistribute wealth: you end up destroying it. Federal spending, the budget deficit, and national debt are now at highest level as a percentage of GDP since WWII. 46 million Americans now living in poverty, the most since the Census Bureau began keeping records in 1959.

3. Clean Energy: President Obama’s record shows failed investments in green energy projects. Solyndra, Beacon Power, and more recently Ener1 all have gone bankrupt costing over $600 million in tax payers money. At best President Obama has been naïve about solar, wind and electric cars.

4. U.S. Credit: Under his presidency the U.S.'s credit rating was downgraded – a first in the history of the U.S.

5. Pro-Class Warfare: He has divided America along racial lines in destructive ways. He has pitted the rich against the poor. He has actively pursued the race issue across America.

6. Embarrassment Internationally: He has traveled the world making apologies for America instead of defending its timeless and treasured ideals of freedom and peace for all nations of good will. Here’s a sample…

A) Apology to France and Europe ("America Has Shown Arrogance") Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.

B) Apology to the Muslim World ("We Have Not Been Perfect") President Obama, interview with Al Arabiya, January 27, 2009.

C) Apology to the Summit of the Americas ("At Times We Sought to Dictate Our Terms") President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.

D) Apology at the G-20 Summit of World Leaders ("Some Restoration of America's Standing in the World") News conference by President Obama, ExCel Center, London, United Kingdom, April 2, 2009

E) Apology for the War on Terror ("We Went off Course") President Obama, speech at the National Archives, Washington, D.C., May 21, 2009.

F) Apology for U.S. Policy toward the Americas ("The United States Has Not Pursued and Sustained Engagement with Our Neighbors") Opinion editorial by President Obama: "Choosing a Better Future in the Americas," April 16, 2009.

7. Embarrassment as a Leader of the Free World: He has said there is nothing exceptional about America, something no other president has ever said and something which alone suggests he is a historically poor president.

8. Jobs: He has not met with his Jobs Council for over 6 months. We have had forty (40) consecutive months with unemployment over 8 percent. African Americans haven’t really fared that well either – in July the report was 14.6% unemployment for African Americans. Reverends Sharpton and Jackson would be going crazy in places like Chicago, Detroit, and Philadelphia if this had been a Hispanic or Caucasian President.

9. Small Business: The President attacked small business owners recently. “If you’ve got a business. You didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” I mean seriously big government gets the credit for America’s success? That is laughable. Here’s something interesting I found:

Quote:
What some people don’t know is that Obama actually lifted this from former Mass. senate candidate Elizabeth Warren. Obama was trying to say that businesses only succeed because government built the infrastructure first or that businesses succeed because the government allowed you to have a business.

First of all the only way for government can build infrastructure is to collect taxes from people who work in and run businesses. So really he has it backwards, government can only succeed by leaching off of businesses. Secondly there are many businesses that succeeded with no government assistance. Thirdly he is saying that you can’t succeed just because you worked hard or because you’re just smart. The most successful people out there are more often than not the hardest working and smartest out there. This is just more class warfare [hog wash].

http://talkstraight.tumblr.com/post/27443065758/did-obama-really-say-you-didnt-build-that


10. Welfare: Largest number of Americans on government assistance in history. A record number of Americans now rely on food stamps – 47 million people. That is one out of 7 Americans. This means a 70% increase since 2007. From the U.S. SS website: By 2033, there will be almost twice as many older Americans as today -- from 43.4 million today to 75.7 million. There are currently 2.8 workers for each Social Security beneficiary. By 2033, there will be 2.1 workers for each beneficiary.


kombat wrote:
He's [Obama] ended two wars.


Iraq:

The unity government in Iraq composed of Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds is falling apart. History will tell if we left Iraq too soon. This is especially true in regards to protecting our allies the Kurds.

Afghanistan:

There are still over 65,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Further- Social Issues:

A) I dislike that Obama is anti-Israel.

B) I dislike that Obama ignores the national day of prayer, but hosts Muslims at the White House.

C) I dislike that Obama favors taking the life of the unborn.

D) I dislike that Obama promised transparency and has been very secretive on many issues. “Transparency promotes accountability and provides information for citizens about what their Government is doing.” Examples of lack of transparency - Gulf of Mexico, Food and Drug Administration, Requests Made for Public School Records, and the more recent Intelligence leak. He's even gone as far as to persecute whistle blowers and alleged leakers.

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:15 am 
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Eagle wrote:
2. Economy: With his policies and the threat of more such policy, he has destroyed more wealth than any human being in history, which is always what happens when you set out to redistribute wealth: you end up destroying it. Federal spending, the budget deficit, and national debt are now at highest level as a percentage of GDP since WWII. 46 million Americans now living in poverty, the most since the Census Bureau began keeping records in 1959.

4. U.S. Credit: Under his presidency the U.S.'s credit rating was downgraded – a first in the history of the U.S.


Oh Eagle, you are so biased and so misguided. But Mr. O doesn't need me to defend him. I know his opponents want to keep talking about the economy. You apparently got the memo on that. But really, you are going to blame Obama for inheriting an economy in freefall in 2008? And is the situation in the EU his fault as well? Because there are few actual economists who would say that EU's problems aren't dragging us down as well. Are you really that stupid?

And as far as the credit downgrade goes, the rating agency was very clear that it was congressional inaction and political ineptitude that precipitated the downgrade.

In case you are wondering, I'm not a fan of Obama. But I can look at the situation objectively and see that you are once again spouting from someone's talking points that you clearly don't even understand.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is pretty effective isn't it. You seem to have bought it.

Eagle wrote:
This is especially true in regards to protecting our allies the Kurds.


Hmm, which treaty allies the US with the Kurds? As far as I know we can only ally ourselves with a nation. The Kurds are an ethnic group. It is also of note that most of the world views the Kurdish actions against Turkey (a formal US ally and NATO member that we have a legal obligation to protect) as terrorist activity. Are you suggesting that the US has allied itself with terrorists?


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