I’ve been thinking about this post and decided not to wait until tomorrow. As always thanks for challenging me to do the research DH
Hopefully it is easy to follow.
I'm interested in the basis for your opinion. To say that it's morally wrong for a government to help because it's not government's responsibility -- this is something I cannot find in the Constitution nor in any Biblical texts. What makes you believe that it's wrong for government to help people?
Once again I’m sure this will not be well received but this is what it says. I have a feeling I'm one of the few (or the only) Christian on the forum.
Why would it not be well received? Vintek asked you about the basis of your beliefs and you responded. I also don't think you are the only religious person or only Christian on this forum. No one, certainly not I, is saying you don't have a right to express your views. I for one am just trying to understand why someone who is as intelligent as you obviously are if so dogmatic and inconsistent about this specific issue.
The reason I don't believe most literal interpretations of the Bible are received well is people don't particularly like absolutes. This is due in my experience to one or a combination of three reasons: 1. one doesn't believe God exists, 2. one doesn't believe the Bible in its entirety is the inspired Word of God, or 3. one doesn’t believe Jesus wasn't God incarnate sent to take away the sins of humanity. Perhaps I am over simplifying the argument but there it is.
Thanks for the complement I think on intelligence. I am sorry if it comes across as overly opinionated or arrogant. Unfortunately, it is not possible to portray my tone of voice or body language through the forum. Yet, that is not my intention to be arrogant. If I came across that way please forgive me.
I guess I’m inconsistent because I’m forming my argument through this thread. If I wanted to hear a one-sided argument I wouldn’t have started this thread.
And to comment directly on your answer regarding the source of your views on the morality of government help, I don't see how those passages you quoted support your views. You say that the bible is silent on the role of government then you interpret that to mean that there is no role of government in your belief system. Well, I am pretty sure that the bible is also silent on the role of internal combustion engines as well. Do you also believe that means that IC engines should have no role in our society?
The role of the government is not absent in my belief system. It is just not active, or at least shouldn’t be, in issues concerning the family (and individuals) and the Church. IC Engines and the role of government are two very different things. In fact it seems to me quite silly to put them in the same sentence come to think of it. Governments have been around for at least a few millennia. The Bible is silent on government involvement in helping the poor because it POINTS to the fact that is something families (and individuals) and the Church should be responsible for. If this is not possible to comprehend I am sorry I tried to express my view.
But it does not really matter what the bible says.
Wait it doesn’t matter what the Bible says? Where do you think we got a good portion of our Constitution from? Make no mistake: This country was founded on Christian principles. Perhaps it’s time for a few reminders: "Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. – Benjamin Franklin, March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University
From the beginning, America's founders accepted the reality that basic rights were inseparable from human beings and they recognized that those inalienable rights were not given by government nor acquired by force, but that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the gifts of the Creator.Declaration of Independence “We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
See: Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Pet. 2:17 3 Branches of Government: “For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our King; he will save us.” (Isaiah 33:22).
—Acknowledged by James Madison as the inspiration for the 3 branches of our government, judicial, legislative, and executive Christianity: The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." John Adams, July 26, 1796, in his diary. General Principles of the Founding Fathers: “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
—John Adams, signer of the Declaration of Independence, judge; diplomat; one of two signers of the Bill of Rights; second president of the United StatesAmendments:
First Amendment – Religious Freedom: (1 Tim. 2:1-2)
Fifth Amendment – Private property rights (Ex. 20:15,17)
Sixth Amendment - Fair trial with witnesses (Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16)
First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments – Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance (Mat. 18:15-18, Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8)
What do you think of this evidence?
This is a country founded on the principle that no religion should be infringed on others. We have a constitution to define and constrain the role of government. The first enumerated power of the Federal government (Article I of the US Constitution) is to lay and collect taxes to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States. This is a power granted to the Congress rather than the states. In the modern world it seems entirely logical to consider health care to be part of the general welfare. The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.
I whole-heartedly agree with this. In fact it was because of the oppression of the Anglican Church (Church of England) that Thomas Jefferson wrote this opinion – because at the time protestant Christians not adhering to the Anglican Church were being persecuted for their faith. In fact one might argue that because of Christians all other religions and the participants of said religions have the freedom to worship as they choose.
So, unless you want to believe the US Constitution is morally wrong, I think you need much stronger support for your argument that it is immoral for the government to help people by providing health care and paying for it with a tax.
Actually, I believe the U.S. Constitution has a lot of great points as seen above. Hopefully this sheds some light on the fact that it’s not just the Greeks we have to thank for our Constitution. I believe that U.S. Constitution has been mishandled at best with Mandates like the healthcare bill. Like I said earlier in this thread time will tell.