Thanks for the great discussion.



God has placed three institutions on earth: the Family, the Church, and the State.

Well you asked so here it goes…

Responsibility of the Individual:

Acts 9:36
"In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas ), who was always doing good and helping the poor."

Proverbs 22:9
He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Proverbs 28:27
He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses.

Deuteronomy 16:17
Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which He has given you.

Deuteronomy 15:10
Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

Luke 3:11
And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”

Responsibility of the Church:

James 2:15-16
If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

1 Timothy 5:8
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

However, there is an admonition: II Thessalonians 3:10
“For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.”

There is never a mention in the Bible that the responsibility falls or should fall on the State.

Once again I’m sure this will not be well received but this is what it says. I have a feeling I'm one of the few (or the only) Christian on the forum.

Why would it not be well received? Vintek asked you about the basis of your beliefs and you responded. I also don't think you are the only religious person or only christian on this forum. No one, certainly not I, is saying you don't have a right to express your views. I for one am just trying to understand why someone who is as intelligent as you obviously are if so dogmatic and inconsistent about this specific issue.

And to comment directly on your answer regarding the source of your views on the morality of government help, I don't see how those passages you quoted support your views. You say that the bible is silent on the role of government then you interpret that to mean that there is no role of government in your belief system. Well, I am pretty sure that the bible is also silent on the role of internal combustion engines as well. Do you also believe that means that IC engines should have no role in our society?

But it does not really matter what the bible says. This is a country founded on the principle that no religion should be infringed on others. We have a constitution to define and constrain the role of government. The first enumerated power of the Federal government (Article I of the US Constitution) is to lay and collect taxes to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States. This is a power granted to the Congress rather than the states. In the modern world it seems entirely logical to consider health care to be part of the general welfare.

So, unless you want to believe the US Constitution is morally wrong, I think you need much stronger support for your argument that it is immoral for the government to help people by providing health care and paying for it with a tax.

Eagle,

I have no quibble with the moral precept that each individual should help his fellow man. I believe that a lot of us on this board follow those precepts. I know DH is actively involved in charities that he believes in; I do as well.

However, the fact that the Bible doesn't mention these responsibilities don't fall on the State does not mean that it's it's morally wrong to do so. I daresay the actions of the State in these matters redresses the failures of the individual to follow the precepts laid out by the Bible. After all, if the 10 Commandments were obeyed by all, we'd probably have a much less complex penal code, would we not? If the Golden Rule were adhered to by all, we wouldn't need laws, would we? Yet we do have them, and they're there to address in inequities in society as it is, not as we wish it could be. The Healthcare law follows those same principles.

So I'll turn your position back onto you. It's clear that not everyone follows the Golden Rule, so we have laws to address the shortcomings of the individual behavior. Why wouldn't the Healthcare Reform be one of those laws? Where in the Bible does it NOT say that the State shouldn't do this? Remember, when the Bible was written, there were no democracies. But most of us here believe that, flawed thought it may be, that democracy is the best of the governmental systems produced so far. So the fact that the Bible doesn't mention something doesn't mean that it shouldn't be.

Your thoughts?

I don't think the Bible mentions MRIs or oncology units either. I love my family, but is it my responsibility (or the church's) to shell out $275,000 to help them with their medical bills if one of my siblings gets cancer and don't have health insurance?

Since Rome (polytheist) was the political power during the early Christian church and then Byzantine Empire declared Christianity to be the state religion in 380 with jointly issued Edict of Thessalonica. It would be just a few decades more before the Canon Bible was established. So I fail to see where the early Church didn’t see a difference between religious leadership and government.



2. For the record I meant to type “upheld” by the U.S. Supreme Court. Only one person on this side of the argument in the thread it seems and responding as best I can. (Brad, DoingHomework, Vintek, Northernlight, Kombat…) In the U.S. people have to wait until they are 16 to drive, 18 to vote, and 21 to drink. To get an abortion one doesn’t have to have parental consent and it can be done as early as what age?

I’ll have to address the other issues tomorrow. Good discussion and thanks for helping me think think through these things.

You did say that nobody wanted to tackle your post. We didn't want to disappoint you.

News flash: there is no god.

That is an absolute statement. Not sure if it is news. It's been claimed before. Of course there have also been claims that evolution, especially micro, is not possible.

Couldn't resist

Lol. Touché.

Wow this topic got popular today!

For the record, I'm not a fan of the law, and I think the Supremes got it wrong, but even if they are wrong, it is the law.

The mandate is one of the few things that I like about it in theory. I'm not a fan of having to pay for someone's care when they chose not to buy insurance. I did think the mandate would be struck down as not allowed under the Commerce Clause (I was right about that). I did not, however, dream of the maneuvering they would go through to call it a tax and valid under the taxing powers. I'm most concerned about that, as it is IMO a significant expansion of Federal power. I previously thought that the Fed Govt's power under the Commerce Clause was too broad, and this, in ways, is much more expansive. There's not much left of the 10th Amendment.

I also don't like how the marriage penalties in the new taxes are putting me in a position where it makes great financial sense to get divorced and just live together "in sin". It's always been that way, but these just increase the disparity.

Anyway, here's how to fix the health care system. Mind you, no one will ever propose it, because it is too cold-hearted.
- Get rid of employer provided insurance (I think employer provided insurance is a large part of the problem)
- Have gov't provided, taxpayer funded insurance/care for ALL children (to 18 or 25 or so). Kid's shouldn't be held responsible for their parent's failure to provide insurance.
- Have gov't provided, taxpayer funded insurance/care for people who genuinely cannot afford it.
- Have gov't provided, taxpayer funded insurance/care for people who cannot get/afford private insurance due to preexisting conditions
- If you can afford it but choose not to have insurance and get sick/hurt, you're SOL. You aren't getting treatment unless you have payment at time of service.

That is a very difficult thing to say but yes as family (as a Christian) the verse says it is one's responsibility according the previous verses to help out.

1 Timothy 5:8
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

I didn't write the letter. But there it is. I think this is especially true for parents. What people did at that time as I understand it was dedicate a portion (usually what they would allocate to helping their parents) of their income to the Lord. So that portion couldn't be used to help aging parents and therefor people thought they were exempt from helping aging parents since they "didn't have" the means to do so.

Thanks for putting it in a different light. I appreciate that others (outside religious organizations) help the poor. I also realize that while I may disagree with many on a variety of topics we can agree we all do want the U.S. to become a better, stronger country. A plan is needed. I’m just not sure if this is the best one.

It's funny you mention if we were to all obey the 10 commandments... Praying, reading the Bible, and now the 10 commandments (and crosses?) are all but banned in public schools. At least during school hours. Regardless of your faith it seems sad that even the basic moral principles in the Bible are no longer considered important.

By stating that it is the individual's and church's job the logical conclusion is that it is not the State's job. Like the SAT here in the U.S. Choose the correct answer according to the Bible: A Family (and by extension the individuals made up in the family), B Church, C State, D (A and B) , E (none of the above). I'd say the answer is D. Three institutions. Only 2 mentioned. This leaves the third out. Omission.

And the U.S. is not a pure Democracy as I understand it. I believe it is a Republic? The Pledge of Allegiance includes the phrase: "and to the republic for which it stands." I believe the Constitution itself speaks to this in Article IV Section 4: “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government.” Perhaps we have strayed from the original intention of the Constitution’s authors.

Your thoughts?

But at the time the Bible was written, the miracles of modern medicine (and all the expenses that go with them) were not yet invented. Average life expectancy was in the 40s. Even a pauper could have afforded to provide health care to members of his or her extended family. Today, if I had to pay for the year and a half of cancer treatments my stepmother went through before she died earlier this year, I would have to sell my house and would probably be in debt for the rest of my life.

Almost every belief system in the world today was developed during earlier times, and while its general principles may hold true today it doesn't make sense to follow them to the letter because we live in a different world and a different culture.

Years ago I remember reading a wonderful story by an anthropologist who spent more than 20 years living with (and studying the culture) of a Native American tribe. He had become so integrated with the tribe that they finally decided to make him an official member. As with many tribes, this one had the tradition that if you are given a gift, you have to give something else away, and the anthropologist was having trouble figuring out what he should give away as an appropriate gesture in return. He went to the chief and asked him: "what should I give away in return for this great honor?" The chief replied, "How much does it mean to you that we're making you part of our tribe?" The anthropologist said, "It means more than anything I can think of." The chief replied, "Then give away everything you own: your house, your car, all your belongings."

That was a literal interpretation of the tribe's code of behavior, but of course both the chief and the anthropologist knew that a literal interpretation doesn't really make sense today because things have changed. Yes, he could have given away everything, but how would his wife and kids feel about that? How would the bank feel? The IRS?

We live in a different world now; I think it's possible to carry out the basic spirit and intention of the Bible's teachings without following it to the letter.

I’ve been thinking about this post and decided not to wait until tomorrow. As always thanks for challenging me to do the research DH Hopefully it is easy to follow.



Why would it not be well received? Vintek asked you about the basis of your beliefs and you responded. I also don't think you are the only religious person or only Christian on this forum. No one, certainly not I, is saying you don't have a right to express your views. I for one am just trying to understand why someone who is as intelligent as you obviously are if so dogmatic and inconsistent about this specific issue.

The reason I don't believe most literal interpretations of the Bible are received well is people don't particularly like absolutes. This is due in my experience to one or a combination of three reasons: 1. one doesn't believe God exists, 2. one doesn't believe the Bible in its entirety is the inspired Word of God, or 3. one doesn’t believe Jesus wasn't God incarnate sent to take away the sins of humanity. Perhaps I am over simplifying the argument but there it is.

Thanks for the complement I think on intelligence. I am sorry if it comes across as overly opinionated or arrogant. Unfortunately, it is not possible to portray my tone of voice or body language through the forum. Yet, that is not my intention to be arrogant. If I came across that way please forgive me.

I guess I’m inconsistent because I’m forming my argument through this thread. If I wanted to hear a one-sided argument I wouldn’t have started this thread.



The role of the government is not absent in my belief system. It is just not active, or at least shouldn’t be, in issues concerning the family (and individuals) and the Church. IC Engines and the role of government are two very different things. In fact it seems to me quite silly to put them in the same sentence come to think of it. Governments have been around for at least a few millennia. The Bible is silent on government involvement in helping the poor because it POINTS to the fact that is something families (and individuals) and the Church should be responsible for. If this is not possible to comprehend I am sorry I tried to express my view.



Wait it doesn’t matter what the Bible says? Where do you think we got a good portion of our Constitution from? Make no mistake: This country was founded on Christian principles. Perhaps it’s time for a few reminders:

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. – Benjamin Franklin, March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

From the beginning, America's founders accepted the reality that basic rights were inseparable from human beings and they recognized that those inalienable rights were not given by government nor acquired by force, but that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the gifts of the Creator.

Declaration of Independence

“We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” See: Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Pet. 2:17


3 Branches of Government:

“For the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, the Lord is our King; he will save us.” (Isaiah 33:22).
—Acknowledged by James Madison as the inspiration for the 3 branches of our government, judicial, legislative, and executive

Christianity:

The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." John Adams, July 26, 1796, in his diary.

General Principles of the Founding Fathers:

“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
—John Adams, signer of the Declaration of Independence, judge; diplomat; one of two signers of the Bill of Rights; second president of the United States

Amendments:

First Amendment – Religious Freedom: (1 Tim. 2:1-2)

Fifth Amendment – Private property rights (Ex. 20:15,17)

Sixth Amendment - Fair trial with witnesses (Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16)

First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments – Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance (Mat. 18:15-18, Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8)

What do you think of this evidence?



The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. In fact it was because of the oppression of the Anglican Church (Church of England) that Thomas Jefferson wrote this opinion – because at the time protestant Christians not adhering to the Anglican Church were being persecuted for their faith. In fact one might argue that because of Christians all other religions and the participants of said religions have the freedom to worship as they choose.



Actually, I believe the U.S. Constitution has a lot of great points as seen above. Hopefully this sheds some light on the fact that it’s not just the Greeks we have to thank for our Constitution. I believe that U.S. Constitution has been mishandled at best with Mandates like the healthcare bill. Like I said earlier in this thread time will tell.

First I’m sorry for the loss of your mother-in-law. I have an aunt who has fought cancer so I can understand somewhat what you’re saying. Thankfully she had insurance.



I don’t really think that it can be argue this particular passage in 1 Timothy 5:8 could be explained away as “We live in a different world now.” I mean perhaps some of the dietary laws… But not this passage. It is clear teaching (assuming one is a Christian) we are to try our best to take care of our own. Now, I’m not sure if I were in the situation if I’d really like to incur thousands of dollars of debt. Especially after climbing out of debt. But I would do my best to help my parents if at all possible. That’s just me.