Arizona immigration law

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DoingHomework
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Arizona immigration law

Postby DoingHomework » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:13 pm

By now everyone has probably heard about my state's new immigration law. If not, I'll summarize - it requires the police to check the immigration status of anyone they suspect might be in the US illegally and to arrest and detain anyone not carrying legal documentation at all times. The law has created national controversy. But my question is purely economic:

Would you boycott Arizona because of this? Would you avoid a family vacation to the Grand Canyon? Would you avoid doing business with Arizona companies? If you were intending to attend a conference here would you change your mind?

reason58
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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby reason58 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:32 pm

I would try my best to avoid supporting such a bigoted state.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby ambition » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:09 pm

Yes.

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timwalsh300
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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby timwalsh300 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:10 pm

Personally, no, it will not impact whether or not I do business with Arizona.

I could argue the illegal immigration issue both ways, based either on what is "fair" or what is best for the future of their state and our country. Some people might boycott Arizona, but just as many people will go out of their way to support them. It wouldn't be controversial if people weren't divided 50/50.

reason58 wrote:I would try my best to avoid supporting such a bigoted state.


I don't think it has much to do with bigotry. The unemployment rate is 10% and Arizona has one of the biggest budget deficits in the country. Both the politicians and the legal residents of the state are frustrated. Targeting illegal Mexican workers and the underground economy that employs them is an obvious (if not productive) outlet for that frustration. Yes, racial profiling will be used to find them, but what else would you suggest? Should the police instead pretend that all the Mexican-looking day laborers hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot are 100% legal, tax-paying, US citizens?

Tim
Last edited by timwalsh300 on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby brad » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:11 pm

I think Timothy Egan summed it up best:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... -syndrome/

I wouldn't boycott Arizona for personal travel/vacation, as I don't think that accomplishes anything productive. But if I were organizing a conference or other big event, I'd certainly think twice about having it in Arizona and if I did boycott the state for such reasons I'd be sure to send a letter to the governor informing her of my decision.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby reason58 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:25 pm

I understand what they are trying to achieve, but I do not agree with their methods. They have tried to soothe the critics by claiming racial profiling will not be used, but it is impossible to enforce this law without racial profiling. Police are going to look at your skin color and style of dress then ask for documentation.

Couple this with the fact that citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them and it creates an untenable situation.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby DoingHomework » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:43 pm

Thanks for all the replies so far. As a resident here I am disgusted by what my state has done. Tim really is right on with his analysis.

But there is already an awful lot of racial profiling in this state, though no one wants to admit it. What this law does is give the police a license to discriminate. It is true that a disproportianate number of police officers here are hispanic but that does not mean they will not discriminate.

But politics aside, our politicians claim that there will be no economic impact on the state yet we are already seeing a huge backlash and I think that is echoed here. The fact that you are all so aware of the new state law supports my point.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby reason58 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:56 pm

If your state truly cared about illegal migrants they would go after the business owners who utilize them. Of course, this is the state with Sheriff Arpaio still in power, so take from that what you will.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby DoingHomework » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:07 pm

reason58 wrote:If your state truly cared about illegal migrants they would go after the business owners who utilize them. Of course, this is the state with Sheriff Arpaio still in power, so take from that what you will.


The new law does go after business owners as well. We also passed a ballot initiative a couple of years ago that punishes business owners for hiring illegal workers.

And Sheriff Joe...don't get me started.

I am really embarrassed to live in this state right now. But I am told that 70% of Arizonans actually support the new law which is especially discouraging.

But it is also true that there is a lot of violence along the border so there truly is a problem. But most of the violence has nothing to do with immigration per se; the violence is associated with turf wars among drug smugglers and "coyotes" that smuggle humans. I grew up about 2 miles from the border and there were never any serious problems. Now there have been people killed down there who were doing nothing but walking on their own land. So, while I think everyone has to accept that there is a real problem that both parties in Washington want to pretend is not there, the new law will do nothing to address the real problems.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby MossySF » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:07 pm

I've never had any interest in visiting AZ before but with the immigration law, it's not principal for me. I'm a citizen but also 1st generation immigrant. If I travel to AZ, who's to say I won't get stopped and asked for my "papers"? Screw that. Try asking a gun-toting red-blood American (who's ancestors may or may not have been illegal themselves) for papers and it'll be Waco, TX all over again.

Couple this with the fact that citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them and it creates an untenable situation.


What proof of citizenship? We have no national ID cards and only 5% of Americans have passports. Birth certificates? Those easily forged things? Besides, birth certificates don't have photos on them. Anyways, since I am a citizen, I don't need to carry papers and hence I can just tell the police no, right? (Yeah, good luck on that.)

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby DoingHomework » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:25 pm

MossySF wrote:I've never had any interest in visiting AZ before but with the immigration law, it's not principal for me. I'm a citizen but also 1st generation immigrant. If I travel to AZ, who's to say I won't get stopped and asked for my "papers"? Screw that. Try asking a gun-toting red-blood American (who's ancestors may or may not have been illegal themselves) for papers and it'll be Waco, TX all over again.

Couple this with the fact that citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship with them and it creates an untenable situation.


What proof of citizenship? We have no national ID cards and only 5% of Americans have passports. Birth certificates? Those easily forged things? Besides, birth certificates don't have photos on them. Anyways, since I am a citizen, I don't need to carry papers and hence I can just tell the police no, right? (Yeah, good luck on that.)


Mossy, mostly I agree. But since passports are required to go to Mexico now...and since Mexico is our nearest beach, I think far more than 5% of Arizonans have a passport. Everyone I know does just so they can go to Rocky Point once a year. I really wonder when we are going to have to carry our passports.

Your point about being a first generation immigrant is also interesting. Not sure of your skin color but I doubt many citizens as white as I am will be asked for papers...nor will be Swedish and German friends. But my hispanic friends might be. They are concerned now. I think it is despicable that citizens would be made to feel that way.

Might be interesting to note that in both the Treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo and the Gadsden Purchase the US agreed to grant citizenship to everyone in the treaty lands and until then would not displace them or deny them rights of other citizens. Congress has failed to act on that for 150+ years. I would like to see the Arizona law challenged at an international level but that will never happen.

I work at a University. There are hundreds of foreign nationals on campus every day. If you know anything about the INS in this country you know they are horribly inefficient and incompetent. It is common for people who are legal to not have the proper documentation because of some bureaucratic snafu. So what will their recourse be when stopped by an Arizona cop? Will INS agents be subject to subpeona to Arizona judges? No.

This is really a nightmare that is unfolding every minute.

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby fantasma » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:20 pm

When you are a legal resident alien card you are issues a "green card". Its not advisable to walk around with it ;so usually peole that have it make a photo copy and keep it in their wallet sinces its so expensive to get another on.

I don't like the method that AZ is going about this, but it is our right to secure our border. Mexico has no say so in this.
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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby floppel » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:25 pm

I feel this is a little bit like the "death panels" of the health care debate, there's a lot of speculation and misinformation. I tried to find out what exactly that law states, and all I could find that it's a state crime now to be in Arizona for non-citizens without proper documentation. I couldn't find the passage where it says that you need to carry papers with you at all times. I'm not a lawyer, but I guess it takes more than just walking down a street to make yourself suspicious of being an illegal, and only in that case police should have authority to make someone produce documentation, and it doesn't say it has to be immediately on the spot.
It's probably just a badly written law, and the objective is probably to have a state crime charge against small criminals so that they can get deported.
I would wait and see how it plays out before jumping to conclusions. But that's just me.
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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby azphx1972 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:42 pm

I can foresee more crap like this happening. A driver gets arrested and detained because he doesn't have his birth certificate with him showing that he was born in Fresno:

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featured- ... 69419.html

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Re: Arizona immigration law

Postby DoingHomework » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:07 pm

fantasma wrote:Mexico has no say so in this.


Actually, Mexico does have a say. The border area of Arizona (as well as all of California, Utah, and Nevada and parts of several other states) was ceded by Mexico under the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo in the 1840s (and partly by the Gadsden Purchase in 1853). Under that treaty the US agreed to respect property rights of Mexican citizens within the ceded lands until such time as they are made US citizens. Congress has failed to act on its obligation under the treaty. So Mexico could contest the treaty...and the authority of Arizona to assert jurisdiction over Mexican citizens within its borders. They do have a legal say. But I'd never suggest they have in practical influence in this situation.

Few know this but there are lands still within Arizona (and several other states) that are parts of land grants made by Spain to citizens in Mexico. Many of these grants are perpetual and by treaty the US must honor the property rights of the grantee forever. A fundamental right of property ownership is the right to access ones land. So basically there are plots of land that the US has no authority to require citizenship to be on, at least of the descendents of the grantees. They have to respect US and Arizona law except where it conflicts with the rights granted under the treaty.

But I'm not a lawyer and I doubthis really means anything. But it is really pretty infuriating what is going on now. I agree we (the US) have a right to enforce the border but teh State of Arizona has no such authority.


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