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A place for Get Rich Slowly readers to ask questions
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It is currently Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:45 am




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 Post subject: Investment tips
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:54 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am
Posts: 13
some notes i took from a book called learn to earn by peter lynch

1.start early you dont get youngger

2.start saving while your expenses are low ie.when your parents are paying for you expenses

3. dont buy flashy things its effects you later in life

4.something called putting your money to work is when ie. you deposit 500 dollars in a savings account with 5% intrest in a year you earn 25% its not much but if every year you add 500 $ every year for 10 years on the tenth year you will have $6,603.39 $1,603.39 earned by intrest.

5. there are three situations you can be in an A+ situation is you are saving and investing C- spending your whole paycheck F ringing up chrages in Credit card

6. 5 basic investments
1.Savings acc,money market funds, treasury bills, CDs
2.collectibles
3.house and apartment
4.bonds (intresting fact us has 5 trillion dollars worth of loan)
5.Stocks

7.Good saying time is money should be time makes money

8.Saying from Fred Schwed famous stock brocker "stick with your stock no matter what even when the smart advice tells you otherwise and act like a dumb mule"

9. A secret forumla for finding the best stock is a simple solution is stick with a solid company with earning power and dont sell without a good reason

10.5 ways to pick stocks (1=Worst 5=Best
1.Darts
2.Hot tips from friends/family
3.Educated tips from fund mangers ws gurus etc.
4.Brokers buy list
10.Doing your own reasearch!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:45 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:13 am
Posts: 214
^^ could really benefit from some proper formatting


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:18 am 
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144mph wrote:
^^ could really benefit from some proper formatting

He says he's 13 years old, so I'm willing to cut him a little slack. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:36 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:28 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
My addition for 9+10 would be: Don't pick stocks at all, stick with funds.
I learned the hard way: Out of ten stocks I invested in, I sold probably two with profit. Two were total losses. Anybody remember CHS Electronics? The funny thing was, one time the stock price doubled, I gave the order to sell, but got greedy and cancelled it minutes later. At the end of the day, the stock lost three quarters of its value. A couple of weeks later, my bank informed me that the stock was removed from my portfolio because it had become worthless. :?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:48 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am
Posts: 13
overall though recors show most of the time indvuidal stocks have made more money cause there is no need to pay for fees etc.
PS. i am 13 and you should be willing to cut me some slack :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:07 am 
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fredrik wrote:
overall though recors show most of the time indvuidal stocks have made more money cause there is no need to pay for fees etc.


You just made a very good argument for the use of low-cost index funds.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:43 am 
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fredrik wrote:
overall though recors show most of the time indvuidal stocks have made more money cause there is no need to pay for fees etc.
PS. i am 13 and you should be willing to cut me some slack :wink:


Actually, history shows that most stock pickers do worse in the long-term than indexers, even with the fees. So basically, to me it comes down to this: If you think you know more than all of the insiders, pros and people with millions of dollars of research and tools at their disposal - who still get it wrong much of the time - then go ahead and pick stocks. But, if you can be honest enough with yourself that you probably *don't* know better than those people, stick with funds.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:22 am 
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pf101 wrote:
fredrik wrote:
overall though recors show most of the time indvuidal stocks have made more money cause there is no need to pay for fees etc.
PS. i am 13 and you should be willing to cut me some slack :wink:


Actually, history shows that most stock pickers do worse in the long-term than indexers, even with the fees. So basically, to me it comes down to this: If you think you know more than all of the insiders, pros and people with millions of dollars of research and tools at their disposal - who still get it wrong much of the time - then go ahead and pick stocks. But, if you can be honest enough with yourself that you probably *don't* know better than those people, stick with funds.

Or if you've got a time machine and can go back in time to pick the examples IN THE PAST that outperformed whatever measure you're comparing. It's easy for stock-picking-proponent authors to say that if you had bought some company 50 years ago you'd now own a string of islands. The future, however, remains unknown.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:06 pm 
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Fredrik,

Spelling format aside, I give you props for hanging out in our forums / site and learning personal finance at 13!!!! Amazing!

Here'a money-making idea. When you're off school in the summer, build a garden and sell your vegetables in plastic bags for a buck or two to your neighborhood. I made close to 3K a summer doing that!

Keep contributing and ask away fred

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am
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ok i guess im beaten with the whole funds thing. though i enjoy picking stocks its more of a hobby for me then a real goal to make myself rich the money is more of a sideline (a very good sideline btw). The garden thing is a very good idea and i already have apple trees and herbs(basil, Mint etc.) they are my mothers though but im sure she would not mind me picking some.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:05 pm 
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Location: Portland, OR
fredrik wrote:
ok i guess im beaten with the whole funds thing. though i enjoy picking stocks its more of a hobby for me then a real goal to make myself rich the money is more of a sideline (a very good sideline btw). The garden thing is a very good idea and i already have apple trees and herbs(basil, Mint etc.) they are my mothers though but im sure she would not mind me picking some.


There is nothing wrong with picking stocks with some play money. However, I believe that your core holdings should be in funds. Once you get to the point that you have a bit of extra money to gamble with and you're willing to lose it then go for stocks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:03 am
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Location: Taishan, Guangdong, China
As a theoretical exercise, I can see a possible strategy involving individual stocks. Let's toss out 95% of people out of the picture before we even start. Most people underperform the market whether in stocks, actively managed funds or index funds because they're chasing performance. (Looking at the fund inflows/outflows at Vanguard, it happens even with index funds.) For the purposes of our discussion, our comparison is against a buy-hold asset allocation plan.

Bogle's research shows index funds are at the 50% percentile for performance before expenses. If index funds capture the whole of market activity, it should be right smack dab in the middle. It's after expenses that index funds then jump to the 85% percentile. Then after taxes, it jumps to the 90-95% percentile. So we have the first part of our answer -- expenses and taxes. The next part of our answer comes from the Efficient Market Hypothesis. In a nutshell, you can get higher long-term returns in exchange for enduring higher risk. With these two points in mind, let's dwelve into "stock picking". How could we construct a strategy to out-perform an index?

First, we completely ignore all pretense of the ability to pick individual stocks. Random dartboards have beaten wall street analysts and the monkey is beating Cramer as we speak ( http://cramerwatch.org ). But this also means randomly picking enough stocks out of an index will reproduce index performance as you increase the number of stocks chosen. So to uncouple tracking to the index and introduce more volatility, we decrease the number of stock chosen. Over a long enough period, the performance of 20 random companies from the S&P500 would have the same return as the overall S&P500 but with a higher volatility. The benefit of the higher volatility will be rebalancing bonus - you get higher highs to sell off profits and lower lows to buy new shares.

Second, instead of randomly picking 20-40 stocks from each category, we try to subdivide the asset classes to eliminate those stocks in the transition zone. For example, the S&P500 can be divided into 250 growth stocks and 250 value stocks. Except about 50-100 in both categories are right on the line in between the two where any share price changes can change their status. Instead, we want to pick from those stocks deep in growth for growth classes and deep in value for value classes. Total randomness is probably best -- it probably won't perform any better or worse but at least you won't have wasted time on futile research. What this does is accentuate the asset class differences to (1) fully capture the returns of each class and (2) increase rebalancing bonus.

Now here comes the caveats. Because we're only picking the extremes of each class, our turnover will be far higher than an index fund. Where a full index would turnover only the small percentage in the buffer zone between large/small/growth/value, a strategy that picks the extremes would easily turnover 50% of a portfolio or more. Even LTCG at 15%, high turnover would be a big tax drag. This means you absolutely need to attempt this strategy in a tax-deferred account.

So we need to find the right account to keep expenses low. If we target 20 stocks per large class and 40 per small class (more stocks needed for riskier small caps), we are looking at roughly 120 stocks and another 10-15 ETFs for those classes too hard to capture with individual stocks (international). At 50% turnover, that's a minimum of 65 trades a year. There are free trade offers but whether these trade offers will remain free forever is unknown. So let's assume $4/trade over an investment lifetime -- that translates to a minimum of $104K needed to match an index fund at 0.25% ER.

Hence, in order to make use of this strategy, you need rather big retirement balances in order to split off a comfortable percentage for a higher risk sub-portfolio. I can see two possibilities. (1) You are self-employed making more than $180K a year which lets you contribute the max $45K a year into a SEP-IRA. (2) You have about 20 years of significant contributions and growth in your 401K and you've recently switched jobs allowing you to transfer to an IRA brokerage account.

Finally you need discipline and nerves of steel as you will see bigger drops than the benchmark indexes. Whatever the computer says to pick during rebalancing, do it because if you can't stick to the original parameters of the strategy, it will be a sure loser. Of course, it may be a loser anyways because that's the definition of risk premium. The higher risk and volatility is guaranteed -- higher risks is only a chance.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am
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MossySF wrote:
First, we completely ignore all pretense of the ability to pick individual stocks. Random dartboards have beaten wall street analysts and the monkey is beating Cramer as we speak ( http://cramerwatch.org .


not to be cocky or anything but cramer won. so the abilty to pick stocks is useful


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:03 am
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fredrik wrote:
MossySF wrote:
First, we completely ignore all pretense of the ability to pick individual stocks. Random dartboards have beaten wall street analysts and the monkey is beating Cramer as we speak ( http://cramerwatch.org .


not to be cocky or anything but cramer won. so the abilty to pick stocks is useful


Cramer won the last week. The overall ROI during all periods tracked:

Cramer: 0.24%
Monkey: 0.43%


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:05 am
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[quote="pf101]There is nothing wrong with picking stocks with some play money. However, I believe that your core holdings should be in funds. Once you get to the point that you have a bit of extra money to gamble with and you're willing to lose it then go for stocks.[/quote] You have conviced me im going ahead and diversify my portfolio with a few funds. Any you pearsonally suggest it dosent have to be the actual fund it can just be a certain comapny.


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