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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:31 pm
Posts: 405
First, Ill agree with most of the others.

You dont need a cell phone for each of you AND a home phone. Pay the ETFs for the cell phones, get your wife a cheap phone with a bare bones plan(NO DATA, its totally 100% unneccessary).

Sell the phones to recoup most of the ETF.

The car is a tough one. Im not sure I like the idea of selling it and then paying the payment for the next twelve months. I think instead you should concentrate hard on paying down the principle until it hits a price you can sell it for and then sell it. That will keep flexibility for you in case you total it or its stolen, etc...

Im confused about the prepaid credit card. $400 balance, but with $500 deposit. You said the account is closed. Why are you still making payments? Shouldnt they just refund you $100? Call the company and see if they can just do that for you.

Kill the netflix and hulu plus. Use regular hulu and rabbit ears. You can trim $200 off your budget easily without even sacrificing that much.

Then you need to at least look for a job. Dont just sit on unemployment waiting for a call back. As well as being morally questionable, its also irresponsible. If you are close to finishing your degree then look into student loans to finish it off(assuming its not in basket weaving or something).

You can easily trim your expenses to fit a budget where your wife makes $1400 a month and you make close to minimum wage(say like $800 a month). That should be enough to get you through to finish your degree and find a new decent paying job.

You need a long term plan, not just an "oh crap", what do we do plan mto make it through until the factory calls you back, assuming they even do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:19 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:33 pm
Posts: 21
Ok,
I feel like the attitude all over this board is really punitive: You made a horrible mistake and are now being punished for it. You must suffer. :devil:

I don't think that's a good attitude to head into this with. You have an opportunity here. You know what is coming up in the next month. You know that even if the job comes back, it will likely be temporary (though if it does, take it!). And you are only 30! You've got 35 years of adulthood ahead of you to apply the lessons you are learning now.

Stay in school assuming your program seems likely to lead to work. Even if it is general, it is probably worth it to finish to the associates degree level. Apply for student aid- you might now be eligible for grants if you explain the lost job but you will have to ask in person to explain it. Try to do school on the cheap- avoid buying books by sharing or going to the library if you can. Definitely buy used and look online. Try for online classes to avoid the commute costs, etc.

Spend your time now on money saving and making endevours that might offer you benefits in the future. I won't say "rice and beans"! How about some coupon shopping and menu planning. This might be hard for your masculinity but it will improve your math skills, earn points with the wife, and you'll learn some fun new recipes.

Apply for jobs. Apply for jobs in new fields you find interesting or that your degree is related to. Look for part time or full time jobs through your college. Ask at unemployment about re-training programs. For now, don't apply for anything that pays LESS than unemployment.

Consolidation is not a solution, but it could be a stopgap. Do you think you would be eligible, now while you are still technically employed, for a card with a 0% balance transfer? Definitely call each card and ask for a lower interest rate.

Definitely try to cut your phone bills and entertainment. I think you should be able to get both phones for about $80 a month. Actually investigate what your current phone is selling for on e-bay/craigslist and what your current EFT is. Make an informed comparison. My phone is over 2 years old and still selling for over $125. iPhone 4s(s) which are now 2 generations old are still over $200. Ask friends/ family for an old phone to use for 1-6 months. I bet one of your wife's family who talks on the phone so much has last years version lying around. Then evaluate after 3 months whether you really need a different phone and what is in your price range.

You definitely don't need netflix streaming AND Hulu. If you want to keep one of those, start looking for $8 a month. Can you find it in your car seats/ couch cushions? Turning in recycling? Online surveys? Make it a goal to have that not come from your regular budget.

If you can find cash work, that's a good deal. Also, trading work. You dig a hole, they cut your kids hair, etc. It also is another opportunity to expand your network and hear about possible jobs.

Is there anything you can sell to pay off those cards? What did you buy at Best Buy? Can you have a garage sale/ ebay sale to make an extra $300-$500 to pay off the pre-paid card? Can you sell your giant TV and find a free/ $25 one that isn't flat? What can you do this week to have $150 next week to pay for your car payment? Improve your selling skills! Those are interview skills too!

Good luck! Have fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:36 pm
Posts: 8
I contacted the prepaid credit card a few weeks ago because it made sense for me too for them to just cut me a check for the remaining deposit. Their policy is to only refund once the balance is paid off, I'm sure just another way to try to squeeze a little more money out of me. All of the classes I'm taking are online and I'm enrolled along side a family member so we split the costs of books.

As for work, I'm networking right now and may be doing a little cash work for an in-law with rentals that need some love. I'm not planning on sitting around and just collecting a check so giving an honest effort into finding a closer job with similar pay while I finish my degree is the idea. As far as the job I had, I honestly hope the tax credit doesn't pass so the wind energy field levels out. I'm 100% sure I'll get a call back and pretty confident I won't be laid off again any time soon.

We meal plan and shop with a list. Ramen, mac and cheese, hot dogs, etc. Neither of us are chefs so cheap and easy are a-ok with us. I'm not sure we're ready for the rice and beans food makeover yet.

I am really like the Page Plus suggestion and will probably end up there. I have a 4g phone that doesn't work on their system without some hacking so will probably be able to ebay it for $200 and use an original droid with a failing screen for a bit. Sad to say, I'm going to fall short of both of us getting the $12 plan. Texting is how just about everyone I know communicates so 250 texts with that plan would cost me in overages I imagine. I can do the 1200 minutes/3k texts. It comes with only 100mb of data per month. I'll be at home all the time so will just leave my wifi on. My wife on the other hand talks way too much and streams too much crap in her down time at work so will probably end up with the $55 unlimited talk/text 2gb data. Coming down from $165 to $85 is a step in the right direction. Again thank you for that suggestion.

We're cutting Netflix entirely and if playon can deliver the shows my wife watches in a timely manner, hulu will probably be going too. Playon quality is subpar in comparison and shows are hit or miss from what I've noticed.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:33 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 1120
StarryC wrote:
Ok,
I feel like the attitude all over this board is really punitive: You made a horrible mistake and are now being punished for it. You must suffer. :devil:

Nobody is trying to beat Spenster up over this but he really needs to get the wife onboard & cut a little deeper to avoid losing everything. Quite a few people on this board have been down this road so we're hoping he won't repeat our mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:42 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 810
Tightwad wrote:
StarryC wrote:
Ok,
I feel like the attitude all over this board is really punitive: You made a horrible mistake and are now being punished for it. You must suffer. :devil:

Nobody is trying to beat Spenster up over this but he really needs to get the wife onboard & cut a little deeper to avoid losing everything. Quite a few people on this board have been down this road so we're hoping he won't repeat our mistakes.


+1. I've never been down this road, but i've had a front row seat to this happening to my parents. I think there is a difference between overspending a bit on an income and starting to cut out the fat vs living to the max on an income and then suddenly loosing a good chunk of that income stream with no immediate remedy in sight. one is much tighter spot to be in than the other, and calls for much more dire precautions.

Also, StarryC mentioned to apply for student aid. While this is a rather a easy step to do for this semester/school year, it will be very difficult to get ANY financial aid office to take pity on you. FAFSA's should be filled out in Feb for classes starting the following August. The school delves out ALL fin aid shortly there after and has very little to work with this late in the game. Especially for someone who never filled out the FAFSA like they should have (I'm assuming this to be the OP's situation since his employer paid for his schooling). It's a long shot, and never hurts to try, but trust me, EVERYONE who walks into a financial aid office has a sob story.

While this is not a suggestion to evade taxes, I would also crank up the number of exemptions on his wife's W4. This will reduce the withholding. I would do it to the max and figure it out next April, but if the OP is used to getting a refund, better start cashing in now.

_________________
Bichon Frise

"If you only have 1 year to live, move to Penn...as it will seem like an eternity."


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:54 am
Posts: 636
Spenster wrote:
Sad to say, I'm going to fall short of both of us getting the $12 plan... that plan would cost me in overages... only 100mb of data per month... talks way too much and streams too much crap


Yes, sad. I suppose that some sacrifice is really out of the question.

Spenster wrote:
Coming down from $165 to $85 is a step in the right direction.


A step in the right direction, sure, but still double what my wife and I pay. And we are both fully employed, debt-free, with several years worth of income in savings, and no kids to support. Just putting this decision into perspective for you.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:32 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:36 pm
Posts: 8
timwalsh300 wrote:
Spenster wrote:
Sad to say, I'm going to fall short of both of us getting the $12 plan... that plan would cost me in overages... only 100mb of data per month... talks way too much and streams too much crap


Yes, sad. I suppose that some sacrifice is really out of the question.


I'm not quite sure if that is what I said. Not putting myself in a situation where I could potentially use a lot more money seems like a smart choice to me.

timwalsh300 wrote:
A step in the right direction, sure, but still double what my wife and I pay.


I'm very happy for you. We're not there yet. I came here to ask for help, acknowledging that I'm doing things wrong in regards to money. I didn't get myself in this position over night and shutting everything off cold turkey feels like a recipe for failure to me. I'm here though, making changes. I gave up cable almost a year ago. It was not an easy decision for me. I replaced it with cheaper streaming. I've now cut netflix. I imagine the phone situation will be similar. I'll be cutting myself down out the gate and will see how little I can get away with. I will hold my wife accountable for her phone bills. When I see a lower plan is a possibility, then I'll move in to it.

Bichon Frise wrote:
I'm assuming this to be the OP's situation since his employer paid for his schooling


Good news on that front. I did fill out my FAFSA. I'm getting a grant for part of my schooling and I am using the grant + employer funds for this semester. Seeing as I don't have a job anymore I might use the grant + student loans to continue school next semester. I'm not that close to being done with school however so decided whether or not to take on that debt will be something my wife and I will have to discuss.

Tightwad wrote:
Nobody is trying to beat Spenster up over this but he really needs to get the wife onboard & cut a little deeper to avoid losing everything.


My wife does drag her feet when it comes to doing without but she'll usually come around. She hates change and that is exactly what we need right now. I don't feel like we're in any danger of losing anything with the way things are now. That said, with the way things are now, they're not going to get any better. From the fixed bills I listed in the first post, with the changes to the phones and removing netflix, I will have cut that amount by a little over 5%. Is that a touchdown? I don't feel like it is, maybe a first down.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:16 am 

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 9:44 am
Posts: 139
Spenster wrote:
timwalsh300 wrote:
Spenster wrote:
Sad to say, I'm going to fall short of both of us getting the $12 plan... that plan would cost me in overages... only 100mb of data per month... talks way too much and streams too much crap


Yes, sad. I suppose that some sacrifice is really out of the question.


I'm not quite sure if that is what I said. Not putting myself in a situation where I could potentially use a lot more money seems like a smart choice to me.

timwalsh300 wrote:
A step in the right direction, sure, but still double what my wife and I pay.


I'm very happy for you. We're not there yet. I came here to ask for help, acknowledging that I'm doing things wrong in regards to money. I didn't get myself in this position over night and shutting everything off cold turkey feels like a recipe for failure to me. I'm here though, making changes. I gave up cable almost a year ago. It was not an easy decision for me. I replaced it with cheaper streaming. I've now cut netflix. I imagine the phone situation will be similar. I'll be cutting myself down out the gate and will see how little I can get away with. I will hold my wife accountable for her phone bills. When I see a lower plan is a possibility, then I'll move in to it.

Bichon Frise wrote:
I'm assuming this to be the OP's situation since his employer paid for his schooling


Good news on that front. I did fill out my FAFSA. I'm getting a grant for part of my schooling and I am using the grant + employer funds for this semester. Seeing as I don't have a job anymore I might use the grant + student loans to continue school next semester. I'm not that close to being done with school however so decided whether or not to take on that debt will be something my wife and I will have to discuss.

Tightwad wrote:
Nobody is trying to beat Spenster up over this but he really needs to get the wife onboard & cut a little deeper to avoid losing everything.


My wife does drag her feet when it comes to doing without but she'll usually come around. She hates change and that is exactly what we need right now. I don't feel like we're in any danger of losing anything with the way things are now. That said, with the way things are now, they're not going to get any better. From the fixed bills I listed in the first post, with the changes to the phones and removing netflix, I will have cut that amount by a little over 5%. Is that a touchdown? I don't feel like it is, maybe a first down.



Spenster,

I think you've received some excellent feedback so far, so I won't rehash that. I did, however, want to quickly comment on where I believe several folks on these forums are coming from. Many of us were (or still are) facing similar challenges as you are - so I definitely sympathize and understand how big of a challenge it can be. As you may just now be recognizing, often times the largest challenge isn't just "making/saving more money," but rather the emotional and financial baggage we bring along which got us into the situation in the first place.

If there is one thing you should take away from this is that your current financial situation is indeed an EMERGENCY. If the comments or suggestions you receive appear harsh, it is solely because others likewise recognize you're in an EMERGENCY. When you're in a true emergency, you often cannot afford to simply try new ideas out, take it slow, etc. You're hemorrhaging, and applying a bandaid or two may grant you another moment of life, but the end result is still the same and close at hand.

Like others, I too would suggest that because you're in an EMERGENCY, you need to do whatever it takes to stabilize... eat rice and beans, live without TV, live on one car or even no car (take the bus and ride bikes), etc. If you treat this like an emergency, you have the ability to course correct and get this behind you in a shorter time period. This will in turn allow you to focus on your goals and get back to living life. If you attempt a bandaid solution, you'll be struggling with this for a long, long time to come.

The choice is yours.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:48 am 
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Bichon Frise wrote:
+1. I've never been down this road, but i've had a front row seat to this happening to my parents. I think there is a difference between overspending a bit on an income and starting to cut out the fat vs living to the max on an income and then suddenly loosing a good chunk of that income stream with no immediate remedy in sight. one is much tighter spot to be in than the other, and calls for much more dire precautions.


I have not been down the layoff road but I've been in a similar situation. I left my high paying C-level job several years ago. I did it voluntarily because I did not agree with the direction of the company. I knew I'd be going to school for 2 semesters to finish up a masters but after that I wasn't sure how long I'd be unemployed. I thought I'd be able to get a new job in my field fairly quickly but had nothing lined up.

I saved up for several months to prepare and I knew I could do something that was basically guaranteed to produce a small income (essentially being a TA). Since this was my "thing" I did not want my wife to have to adjust her lifestyle or support me.

So what I did was adjust my lifestyle down significantly to live within what I knew I could earn and using what I saved to prepare so that I'd be able to pay for my school and exhaust the rest of the savings (not all of our savings, just what I saved up extra to prepare) over 2 years. Even though we had a very large nest egg, I was not going to touch that.

I cut WAY back. I did eat rice and beans for lunch plus lots of veggies for dinner. No more going out to eat, but then I also had more time to cook. I cut my cell phone back to the bare minimum and only used about 60 minutes a month plus had texts blocked so I did not have to pay. I rode my bike everywhere so I did not have to buy gas very often. I dressed warmly and shut the heater off when I was home during the day. Basically, I spent very little and was able to live on what I brought in and only used the savings for tuition. And what I made was less than what you said you'll get from unemployment Mr. Spenster. So I know it can be done!

In my case I got a new job after the year off.

And, this was not the first time I did that. I took off 3 years in the late 90s to get a Phd and did pretty much the same thing then. The only big difference was that in that case I knew my job was waiting for me when I finished.

My comments above might seem a little harsh. I'm not blaming you for your situation, and frankly, very little you have said points to serious past mistakes. YOU are the one saying you have made mistakes in the past. My main criticism is that your plan for getting through this predicament is very risky and I don't think you are cutting back as much as you need to. You do seem to finally be coming around.

And following from another post here...this is an emergency. This is why you should have an emergency fund!


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:10 pm 
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By the way, I actually happen to enjoy rice and beans. Especially if I splurge and put some shredded cheese on top. Cheap, but good.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Welcome to the forums Spenster.

Spenster wrote:
I'm one of the lucky people that lost their job. I currently have no Efund and already live paycheck to paycheck. As of right now, I have another 4 weeks of regular 40hr paychecks and then get a lump sum payout for another 4 weeks. I was hoping for a little advice on life in general here, heh.


No sorry, actually you don’t live paycheck to paycheck. You spend more than you make. You live above your means. That’s the bad news.

Spenster wrote:
For budgeting purposes I'm going to assume I'll get $350/wk from unemployment. My wife brings home around $700 every two weeks. We have a 6 mo old son that I'll watch during the day saving the extra trips to drop him off with my mom to watch. Below is what I consider fixed bills.


I would argue not all of those are fixed bills you listed.

It’s time to cut. Your wife needs to be on the same page in order for you guys to pull through this. Well, at least it would be a lot easier with her support.

Hulu, Netflix, Cell Phone (data), and Home Phone is where I’d cut as these are luxuries. Are you on a contract for your home phone?

Have you shopped around for electric companies? Might be able to save $20-50 here.

See this thread for ways to save money.

Forgot to mention using my lump severance to pay off my CC to get security deposit back. [/quote]

How much would be the security deposit you would get back?

Spenster wrote:
Now for my debts! (CC APR as reported at creditkarma)
Almost last, I have a 401k with the company with just shy of 9k in it.


I agree with others don’t touch your 401k.

Also start looking for another job now. :^)

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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Posts: 960
Dave Ramsey’s course helped us get out of debt.

12 Steps To Get Out and Stay Out of Debt

1. Make the Resolution: Spend less than you make. This is a tough one. Spending more money than you earn is common practice in the U.S., and increasingly in other countries around the world.

Learn to just say “No.” You must learn to say no to yourself, your spouse/partner, and your children. This is called delayed gratification. It is essential to getting out of debt. A) Are you ready to make the resolution?

“Live like no one else [today] so you can live like no one else [in the future debt free].” – Dave Ramsey

2. Educate Yourself: The local library is a great resource. If you eventually want to purchase these Amazon.com or Half Priced Books is a good place to look. We used DR's methods and went through Financial Peace University twice (first the audio CD and then the Dvd series) and I can tell you it works. We have been debt free since the summer of 2011! B) Have you considered taking DR’s Financial Peace University course? The new FPU DVD course is only 9 weeks (1.5 hour sessions) long now instead of 13 weeks (2 hours sessions).

Some good personal finance books:

• The Richest Man in Babylon By George Samuel Clason
• The Total Money Makeover By Dave Ramsey
• The Millionaire Next Door By Stanley and Danko

3. Motivate Yourself: Getting out of debt takes commitment, energy, and intensity. This will require sacrifices. Set clear and achievable goals on one page or less. (I’d recommend the “The One Minute Manager” by Kenneth H. Blanchard and Spencer Johnson.) Put these goals on the fridge or as you walk out the door so you see them every day. Starting a financial journal on the GRS forum is a great idea. Reward yourself with little treats as you accomplish your goals. Normal = spend like there is no tomorrow. Being different or even “weird” by seeking to become debt free is a good thing. C) How are you and/or your spouse/partner motivated?

4. Organize Yourself: Create a balance sheet. This helped us a lot when looking seriously at getting out of debt. D) What is your total debt? How much is the interest rate associated with each debt? What is the total pay off? What is your total Net Worth? How are you tracking your expenses (Excel Spreadsheet? Mint.com?)

Assets(stuff you own) – Liabilities(debts) = Net Worth

5. Choose: D) How are you going to get out of debt? – Lowest balance (Debt snowball) or highest interest.

If the debt snowball…

1. Create a list of all of your debts: credit cards, car loans, student loans, mortgages, etc…
2. Next to each one write down the total balance owed.
3. Re-order these from smallest to largest debts (use Excel to make this simpler.)
4. Pay the minimum payment on all of the debts – except the smallest one.
5. Put every extra dollar you can find towards paying off that smallest debt.
6. Celebrate like crazy when you get that first debt paid off.
7. Take the amount you were paying towards the first debt and put towards the next smallest debt. Do this until this one is paid off.
8. Celebrate again!
9. Continue this process until each one is paid off.

6. Cut Expenses: Sell something. Create a budget. Cut. Cut. Cut. F) What are some ways you can cut expenses out of your budget? See this thread. Once you’ve created your budget evaluate it periodically but most importantly - Stick to it!

Expenses > Income = Bad & Expenses < Income = Good

7. Spouses/Partners get on Same Page: While every couple is different, you could consider reading the same materials, talking openly about your feelings, and sharing like goals. When you share goals, you are usually more likely to take the necessary steps to accomplish your goals. If you or your spouse/partner are not on the same page, the process will be a lot more difficult. Communication is the key. Determine not to live life in the bondage of debt. Credit Cards are not the answer. G) Are you and your spouse/partner on the same page? What would it take to get on the same page?

8. Get an Accountability Partner/Coach: When you are getting out of debt, you want to be influenced by people who support your decision. Not everyone does. This can even include family. Hang out with friends who are frugal. Befriend people who enjoy movies at home instead of in the theater. H) Who do you know would be a good role model for you in getting out of debt and holding you accountable to your goals?

9. Save up for an Emergency Fund: $300 (if you make less than $15,000 a year), $500 (if you make more than $15,000 and less than $24,000 a year), or $1000 (if you make more than $24,001 a year) respectively. Do this quickly hopefully in less than 2-3 months. Emergencies can and always will happen – car repairs, home repairs, hospital bills, etc. It is better to be prepared for when the emergencies happen. I’d say a good goal would be an E-fund with 3-6 months of household expenses. We have 9 savings accounts we use to save for emergencies and expenses we know will happen – car repairs, new car, new computer, medical bills, baby related, purchases, vacation, etc. We don’t even touch our E-fund anymore for most emergencies. I) What system do you think would work best for you?

10. Increase Your Income: Seeking a raise is a good place to start. Getting a second job part-time is a good idea too. If a couple perhaps the spouse/partner who isn’t the main bread winner could get a part-time job making $1000-2000 per month. Or what about having a yard sale? Hopefully this extra income will lead to you paying off your debts sooner. Your income is your greatest asset. Time to stop giving other people portions of it through interest and fees! J) What ways could you earn extra income?

11. Set Financial Goals: Goals are the fuel that propel you through the slow days of debt repayment. Hey, the process will get hard and it will seem to drag on at points. You’ll want to quit and give up. You’ll start to think that your old way of living wasn’t so bad after all. These are the days you need to look at your goals and remind yourself of why you are making the decisions you are making. Make sure your goals are SMART – Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time specific. K) What goals do you want to establish for 2012? What are your long term goals over the next 5-10 years?

12. Stop Making Excuses: Sometimes, not always, we make excuses. I would get out of debt but … [fill in the blank with poor excuse].

Right now you have a perfect opportunity to change your life and create a new financial identity. Accomplishing goals always feels great. Imagine how you would feel if you paid off all your debt and didn’t owe any money to anyone! You are on the right road to change your family tree! L) Are you ready to make the changes necessary to get out of debt?


Thoughts? Comments? Are you ready?

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Posts: 5293
Spenster, please don't listen to Dave Ramsey. And under NO circumstance pay him money by buying his snake oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:29 pm
Posts: 1592
Location: Seattle, WA
I heard a radio segment on the wind power credit this morning. I came away from it with two new beliefs:
1) The wind power credit system is messed up. The program should either be scrapped or made permanent. It's like the AMT - constantly band-aided and limped along for another year or three.
2) Given the previous, I wouldn't work in the wind power industry, for anything less than obscene wages.


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 Post subject: Re: Rock bottom, now what?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:06 pm
Posts: 81
Read this (and its worth the $10):

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3027172&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1


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