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 Post subject: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:36 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 812
I don't know if anyone else is as concerned as I am about the state of our both our countries finances and some disturbing trends and options being discussed.

1) Came accross for the second time a discussion about the potential for seizing all 401k money because the average person has insufficient funds to retire (what a surprise) average is well under $100k
2) Our debt laiden countries continued reckless spending - the pork laiden Sandy relief bill comes to mind.
3) The seizure of private funds in Cypress.
4) the mind numbing talk about "fair share" tax rates. We all know it will never be enough! And they re talking about another stimulus plan!
5) people actually putting forth the notion we don't have a spending problem- and the great devide between Dems and Repubs

Years ago when the private defined benefit pension started going the way of the dinosaur I knew and discussed with friends how people will not save enough and they would start looking the piles of those of us who did save. (You know grasshopper and Ant kind of thing) it appears that time is coming- the question is what to do?

Move to a country not so burdened with an aging population
Find a way to offshore your funds to Asia- perhaps buying assets there - condos etc?

I am interested if anyone has any constructive thoughts?
And no "Ray your crazy" isn't constructive!

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RayinPenn

“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”
― Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:18 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:10 pm
Posts: 136
America will not allow entire generations to live their elder years in poverty. Rather than an asset grab, I expect large increases in taxes in order to fund a massive expansion of social security. That's why I'm avoiding tax-deferred retirement investment vehicles as much as possible.

As you said, the grand "401k experiment" has been a colossal failure. In retrospect, the mass replacement of defined benefit plans with defined contribution plans happened way, way too quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:15 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:29 pm
Posts: 1629
Location: Seattle, WA
I don't think the politicians would try to literally seize all 401(k) balances. Even though most people don't have nearly enough, most people do have some assets, and any plan to seize or tax those assets would cause an uproar (and worse, loss of votes for incumbents). I think that would be true even if the plan only hit accounts over a certain amount, for the same reason that people object to the highest tax bracket even though they will never be in it: because they imagine they would be hit by it someday (however unrealistic that imagination is).

I think it's more likely they will move towards means testing, taxes, etc, and other ways to shave off a bit without it seeming like they're doing so.

Also, to say that the 401(k) experiment has failed seems a bit... incorrect, given that they system it replaced (employer sponsored pensions) is in at least as much trouble, if not more. At least with a 401(k) system, those of us who do save can take care of ourselves.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:02 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 820
no reason so seize anything when you can fire up the printing presses any time you like.

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"If you only have 1 year to live, move to Penn...as it will seem like an eternity."


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:21 am
Posts: 95
Location: New York
RayinPenn wrote:
I don't know if anyone else is as concerned as I am about the state of our both our countries finances and some disturbing trends and options being discussed.

1) Came accross for the second time a discussion about the potential for seizing all 401k money because the average person has insufficient funds to retire (what a surprise) average is well under $100k
2) Our debt laiden countries continued reckless spending - the pork laiden Sandy relief bill comes to mind.
3) The seizure of private funds in Cypress.
4) the mind numbing talk about "fair share" tax rates. We all know it will never be enough! And they re talking about another stimulus plan!
5) people actually putting forth the notion we don't have a spending problem- and the great devide between Dems and Repubs

Years ago when the private defined benefit pension started going the way of the dinosaur I knew and discussed with friends how people will not save enough and they would start looking the piles of those of us who did save. (You know grasshopper and Ant kind of thing) it appears that time is coming- the question is what to do?

Move to a country not so burdened with an aging population
Find a way to offshore your funds to Asia- perhaps buying assets there - condos etc?

I am interested if anyone has any constructive thoughts?
And no "Ray your crazy" isn't constructive!


Of all the things to point to as wasteful spending, you picked a $51 billion storm response rather than $trillions spent on war?

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Track my fiscal fitness with $0.5 million in debt: http://getrichslowly.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61052 Latest update: As of April 16, I've paid off $21,400 in credit card debt this year (after starting with $35k)


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:51 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 812
Sandy poped into my head because I heard a list of not Sandy related expenses in it. Was a new roof for the smothsonian?

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RayinPenn

“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”
― Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:34 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:21 am
Posts: 95
Location: New York
No idea. When I saw this thread title, I assumed it a multi-index fund retirement strategy where you rebalance among the three from time to time...

_________________
http://debtblag.com

Track my fiscal fitness with $0.5 million in debt: http://getrichslowly.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61052 Latest update: As of April 16, I've paid off $21,400 in credit card debt this year (after starting with $35k)


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:01 am
Posts: 5402
RayinPenn wrote:
I don't know if anyone else is as concerned as I am about the state of our both our countries finances and some disturbing trends and options being discussed.

1) Came accross for the second time a discussion about the potential for seizing all 401k money because the average person has insufficient funds to retire (what a surprise) average is well under $100k

Hmm. Perhaps you should read the Constitution. Can't happen.

The process for taking 401(k) money is raising taxes. That's likely to happen in the future but anyone who talks about outright confiscation does not know what they are talking about.

RayinPenn wrote:
2) Our debt laiden countries continued reckless spending - the pork laiden Sandy relief bill comes to mind.

We probably need to reduce spending. But we are hardly "debt-laden." Our debt is a little less than our GDP. Almost anyone who owns a house is or was in a position of having debt that far exceeded their income. It's not a perfect analogy. But we can correct the situation with responsible spending and tax policies. The ship is not sinking.

RayinPenn wrote:
3) The seizure of private funds in Cypress.

C'mon, it was Cyprus. It's economy is smaller than many US cities and it has spent the last half a century intentionally attracting money being illegally hidden to avoid taxes. Is it any surprise that European tax authorities wanted a little skin?

RayinPenn wrote:
4) the mind numbing talk about "fair share" tax rates. We all know it will never be enough! And they re talking about another stimulus plan!

I'm sure we will never agree on what is fair with regard to taxes. But at this point the entire world wants US debt. Our rates are so low because everyone wants to have the US government hold onto their money. That is a hardly a sign of impending doom.

RayinPenn wrote:
5) people actually putting forth the notion we don't have a spending problem- and the great devide between Dems and Repubs

How do you determine if we have a spending problem?


Years ago when the private defined benefit pension started going the way of the dinosaur I knew and discussed with friends how people will not save enough and they would start looking the piles of those of us who did save. (You know grasshopper and Ant kind of thing) it appears that time is coming- the question is what to do?

RayinPenn wrote:
Move to a country not so burdened with an aging population
Find a way to offshore your funds to Asia- perhaps buying assets there - condos etc?

Some countries in Asia do have better demographics than we do and some have the same or worse problem compared to us. So you need to know what you are doing and work very hard researching to implement this kind of strategy.


RayinPenn wrote:
I am interested if anyone has any constructive thoughts?
And no "Ray your crazy" isn't constructive!


How about "Ray, you need to relax an read more widely."

There is a morsel of truth in much of what you say but it is only a morsel. There is no need to panic or do anything rash. The future will bring what it brings. The only thing for certain is that it will bring the unexpected!


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 812
Doing homework

I must say I was quite disappointed with your superfluous and inappropriate comment about being more well read. I suggest that you are the one who needs to broaden your understanding...
1. Our President's people brought up the 401k confiscation theme again when they introduced his last budget a week or so ago.
2. As the president is a constitutional scholar and professor (Harvard wasn't it?) I think he has an excellent understanding of what might pass Supreme court scrutiny. I suspect nationalized healthcare would have been written off as impossible 30 years ago...look where we are now.
3. When you spend more then you make and your spending rate is growing..You Have a spending problem.
4. Anyone who believes the US is too big to fail is sadly mistaken......Think of Britan when the British East India dominated the seas.. How the mighty have fallen eh?

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“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”
― Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:01 am
Posts: 5402
RayinPenn wrote:
Doing homework

I must say I was quite disappointed with your superfluous and inappropriate comment about being more well read. I suggest that you are the one who needs to broaden your understanding...
1. Our President's people brought up the 401k confiscation theme again when they introduced his last budget a week or so ago.

Show me. I believe they proposed taxing balances over $3 million not confiscation. That might be semantics. But as I said, taxation is the mechanism. No one is going to literally confiscate your money. We have constitutional prohibitions on the government taking anything without compensation. Taxing 401(k) balances might cross that line so they probably will simply tax activity over that threshhold. Personally I don't really have a problem with that.

RayinPenn wrote:
2. As the president is a constitutional scholar and professor (Harvard wasn't it?) I think he has an excellent understanding of what might pass Supreme court scrutiny. I suspect nationalized healthcare would have been written off as impossible 30 years ago...look where we are now.

Well, we don't have nationalized health care. We have required private insurance.

RayinPenn wrote:
3. When you spend more then you make and your spending rate is growing..You Have a spending problem.

Sort of. Spending to stimulate the economy usually works. Now is definitely NOT the time to cut deeply. But I agree, over time we do need to get our house in order. But that either means a dramatic contraction in the US economy and a great deal of pain if we cut spending alone or we need to raise taxes as well.

RayinPenn wrote:
4. Anyone who believes the US is too big to fail is sadly mistaken......Think of Britan when the British East India dominated the seas.. How the mighty have fallen eh?

Oh, I definitely don't think the US is too big to fail. All empires always fall. Queen Elizibeth II used to rule an empire. Now it's just an island. And so on. But right NOW, April 2013, the world has enormous faith in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:29 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1976
RayinPenn wrote:
2) Our debt laiden countries continued reckless spending - the pork laiden Sandy relief bill comes to mind.

We discussed the National Debt at length here. Feel free to add any new information, but have your facts ready to support your position. Don't even think of trying to compare the world's largest economy to personal finances.

And since I'm limited to only one link per post, I'll address another one of your points in the next post.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:33 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1976
RayinPenn wrote:
I suspect nationalized healthcare would have been written off as impossible 30 years ago...look where we are now

DH addressed this, but you're spreading FUD. We discussed this here awhile back too. Feel free to add new information. Same rules. Support your contentions with facts. But do read that link first. We don't want to cover old ground if we can help it.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:15 pm
Posts: 1214
DoingHomework wrote:
Hmm. Perhaps you should read the Constitution. Can't happen.

The process for taking 401(k) money is raising taxes. That's likely to happen in the future but anyone who talks about outright confiscation does not know what they are talking about.

Since when does the current administration care about the Constitution? The second amendment gives us the right to bear arms. Earlier this week they tried very hard to take that away. If it would have (or ever does) succeed, "confiscation" probably wouldn't be out of the question. Just sayin'....


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:43 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1976
Tightwad wrote:
The second amendment gives us the right to bear arms. Earlier this week they tried very hard to take that away. If it would have (or ever does) succeed, "confiscation" probably wouldn't be out of the question. Just sayin'....

We've discussed this too. This is the thread for that. Feel free to add to it if you have anything new to say. I would welcome any new information. Otherwise, both sides have already said it all.


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 Post subject: Re: The redistribution investment strategy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:27 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 820
DoingHomework wrote:
Hmm. Perhaps you should read the Constitution. Can't happen.

The process for taking 401(k) money is raising taxes. That's likely to happen in the future but anyone who talks about outright confiscation does not know what they are talking about.


I don't know why everyone cares about taxes and confiscation when inflation is the real story.

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"If you only have 1 year to live, move to Penn...as it will seem like an eternity."


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