Discplining your children to improve your bottom line

brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:05 pm **Posts:** 1184

consultantjournal wrote:

Wow. Kids with 82% (B+) averages can't get into university here. Now I see why the US college-educated coaches at my university said that US schools had lower standards!

On the other hand, getting into CEGEP, which is the Québec version of a junior college (equivalent to last year of high school and first year of university) is a downright cinch. My girlfriend's daughter failed or barely passed many of her courses in secondary school (mainly because she rarely went to class, never studied, and rarely did any homework) and yet she was accepted into Collège Ahuntsic, one of the city's better CEGEPs, without even having to take an entrance exam. Unfortunately she continued her "don't go to class, don't study" approach and flunked out of CEGEP and is now barred from reapplying for a year; I don't think she has ever had any desire to go on to university but I was surprised how easy it was for her to graduate secondary school and get into CEGEP with a D average.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, I think that whether parents ask their kids to do chores around the house or not, the key is to somehow foster a work ethic that doesn't look down on menial labour. I used to work in a nonprofit that was full of bright people who worked hard; most of them came from priviledged families and clearly had been spared responsibilities at home during their childhood. The result was that they always left their dirty dishes in the company kitchen sink for "someone else" to wash because that's what they'd always done at home. Now, I know that leaving dishes in the company sink is a "tragedy of the commons" issue and is a widespread problem, but to me it's symptomatic of a larger problem in which people think that certain tasks are beneath them. But the reality of life is that we all have to wash dishes and clean toilets sometime. Even rocket science involves many hours of tedium; it's the comparatively few minutes of exalted Eurekas that make it worthwhile. Giving your kids chores helps prepare them for the reality of even the best jobs, most of which are more like baseball than soccer: many hours of tedium and routine, punctuated by short bursts of thrill and excitement.

pf101 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:11 pm

SJean wrote:

Also, did you mean 92% or is 82% B+? In high school 82% was more of a C/C+. In college, maybe a B-, but sort of depended on the bell curve.

At my high school, 82% would have been a B for most classes. Almost everyone graded on 90/80/70/60% for letter grades.

consultantjournal · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:48 pm

Well, if it's on a curve, grades don't really matter anyway. My high school would have 86%=A, 73%-85.5%=B, 67%-72.5%=C+, etc. But, whether an official curve is in place or not, there's no real way to compare grades, I suppose.

MossySF · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:48 am

For even state run schools, higher education is now big business. With so much government-backed money (loans non-defaultable) floating around, colleges in the U.S. have sprung up to provide room for any student who wants to attend regardless of grades. 17-19 year olds of course think it's free money just because payments are deferred. It's like buying a Gucci purse and making payments 4 years later!

honeybee · **Joined:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:01 pm **Posts:** 90

Andrea, I was pretty impressed that your high school and mine had the exact same grade cutoffs -- but now I note you're based in Vancouver, where I grew up and went to secondary school. Maybe we went to the same school even!

When I left for college in the US, the cutoff for admission to Arts and Sciences at UBC was something like 88%. I would have scraped in, and I was #12 in my class at a top-ten provincial school. I attended the #4 college in the US.

To my intuition, it boils down to supply and demand. There are just two universities of solid academic repute in Vancouver -- UBC and SFU -- and a growing body of incredibly well-disciplined and educationally-invested predominantly Asian youth. Those are not small schools, either. Those high standards are why I had friends trek up to that unlivably cold northern climate to attend UNBC (they require underground tunnels!!).

In the US, supply responds much more quickly to demand -- there are more schools available to choose from. Quality also ranges. (UOPhoenix!) You can almost always find something in your calibre range in your own home state and pay in-state fees, making it relatively affordable even for those who need to take out full loans or balance school with a lot of work.

A difference between Canadian and US schools is that the former base their admissions almost solely on the magic grade cutoff, while competitive US schools base their choices on essays, extracurriculars, languages, volunteerism, exposure, etc.

I'm going to make my kids do chores. Short loud and small people will earn their room and board in my house -- THEY are renting from ME. Since they won't have any money for a while, they can pay off the balance of their debt later in my retirement with car rides, fun grandkids, etc. They should be happy that I am making them such a loan with no credit history or security.

boldinvest · **Joined:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:17 pm **Posts:** 95

pf101 wrote:

It makes me feel old to use the phrase "kids today" (I'm 33) but I'll use it anyway...

It seems to me that many (not all) kids today don't have any work ethic. I started volunteering when I was 4, working when I was 12, went on the books when I was 14 and I was working full time by the time I was 17. I worked some crap jobs, but I did what needed to be done and I didn't bitch and moan about it. It was what was expected. In my last office job, I managed the interns and wow! let me just tell you that I've never worked with a group of people who were more lazy and who had a higher sense of self importance than these kids. They were absolutely shocked that they were expected to work during their (PAID!!) internships. And, not only work, but do crap work too. I usually had to fire at least one/semester before they learned. And I'm not a bad manager. I'm not one who thinks that interns are crap and should be stuck in a corner filing all day. I went to great efforts to ensure that they got to work on cool projects. However, if grunt work needed to be done, they were expected to do it. Immediately and without complaint (at least within my hearing). I had interns flat-out refuse to make copies for me and bind presentation books. They were given a choice which they had 5 minutes to consider: Start making the copies or start packing their desks. It was pathetic. And I blame their parents for not teaching them better.

My cousins are a prime example of how bad parenting can ruin kids. I have 2 cousins, ages 13 (K) and 15 (S) who are just horrible. They've gotten better over the years, but they're still mostly horrible to be around, and their parents admit it. One is lazy, whiny and a big cry baby and his father (J) coddles him and gives him everything he wants because he doesn't like confrontation. For example, the older boy (S) refuses to eat anything but fast food, preferably McDonalds. During holiday meals he'll throw a fit if someone doesn't bring him a happy meal and will refuse to eat. So, instead of letting him go hungry, my cousin (J) drives over to McDs and gets him what he wants. Every time. Now me, my response would be: "this is dinner. If you don't like it, don't eat, but this is all there is today so you won't have anything until tomorrow if you don't eat now." It will only take a couple nights on an empty stomach for them to learn to eat what's given to them. The girl, (K), is a consumer goddess. This year for Christmas she got a $500 Coach purse...along with about $1000 worth of other crap. Now I ask you, what 13 year old needs a $500 purse. When I asked her, she was happy to inform me that this was her 4th purse. She also has a Gucci, a LV and another Coach that she'd gotten for other presents. All told, she probably has $3k worth of bags...at 13. Since my cousin J works as a delivery driver, I have zero doubt that he's gone into serious debt to finance this crap for her.

It drives me nuts. Seriously nuts.

I spent a year as an au pair for a family in Switzerland and it just amazed me to be around those kids. They had rules and followed them. They were expected to play outside with their friends, not sit inside and watch TV. In fact, they were only allowed 1 hour of screens (TV, game boy, computer, etc)/week. If they wanted to watch more, they could earn it by doing extra chores, reading a chapter in a book, doing pages in school workbooks and other things. They received an allowance of 5 CHF/week which they could save up to buy something special if they wanted (computer/game boy games, etc). For a special treat (happened 3 times in the year I was there) they got McDonalds. Every other meal (except for maybe 2-3 that I remember) was eaten at home, at the dinner table, with the entire family present.

Now, I'm not saying they were perfect. They had their whiny moments and their just plan PITA moments, but so do all kids. But I was never embarrassed to take them out in public. I knew I could go to the store, to a museum, to the park with them and they'd behave. And if they didn't, we went home and they lost their screen privileges for a week. The problem is, it took effort to get them "trained" that way and many parents don't have the time/desire/knowledge to put in that effort.

Many in my generation grew up as latch key kids, eating dinner alone in front of the TV with minimal parental supervision...so should it be a surprise that we don't know how to be good parents? One of the best things that happened to me was working for that family because I saw a different way to raise kids and manage a family and I liked it and intend to follow it if/when I have a family of my own.

Anyway, this became kind of a rant, sorry. As you can see, it's something I feel strongly about because it's ruining our kids and the future of our country. If you raise a generation of kids who won't work, who's going to manage our future?

If I acted bad like that my butt would have been raw and numb. LOL.

My parents did/do buy me a lot (mostly food, and clothing). They are strict do it their way or else.

boldinvest · **Joined:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:17 pm **Posts:** 95

pf101 wrote:

brad wrote:

By that do you mean that parents now may be enouraging their kids to spend more time studying (to help them get into university) and thus may not be giving them as much work to do around the house? That makes some sense but I'm not sure it's true

I agree. I personally don't notice kids spending any extra time studying...if anything it seems like they spend less time studying if the fact that they're making the tests easier so they can pass them is any indication. I think that they're just involved in a whole lot more after school, like you said. Sports, music lessons, dance, etc...kids are crazy busy these days. Though I can't say much. For most of my high school career I was at school from 7 am to 7 pm daily as I was involved in sports, drama, and other clubs that kept me very busy.

Bull crap. College tests are hard. Try solving this

7x - Y + 3z = 12
-4x + 7y - z = 3

And problems just like that.... I took a test tonight, and man was it HARD!!!

Although that was math.

Wait... I think you're talking about high school not college.

boldinvest · **Joined:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:17 pm **Posts:** 95

pf101 wrote:

consultantjournal wrote:

When I finished high school, you needed marks in the 90s to get into university. I personally studied from 6 pm till 11 every night, except for the three nights a week that I had to work and I studied at other times, although I did study more than most people (and hence had those marks in the 90s). I would estimate that I spent about 30 hours a week on homework. For scholarships and some programs, you also needed to have significant community, sports/arts, and volunteer involvement. I volunteered and did extra curricular stuff for about 10 hours each week. So that you could get a part-time job or even a co-op job in university, you needed to have work experience, too. I worked at least 12 hours a week for pay. Most of the people I knew studied less but spent considerably more time at work and extracurricular activities. I also had some responsibilities at home, but not to the degree that you're describing.

In my current city, kids still do all those work/volunteer/extracurricular/study things. Most also go for tutoring, because the admissions cut-off for school is pretty high. Also, if everyone else is getting extra help, you need to get help just to keep pace. Many kids take courses in advance at summer school, then repeat them again the next year, so that they can pull off straight-As. If you aren't part of the game, you're not going to get in. And, when it comes to work experience, employers (and admissions people and scholarship people and even prime volunteer orgs) value stuff outside the home more than stuff you did at home. This is very sad but true.

pft...in the US, as long as you are actively breathing you can get into at least a community college. it's gotten so bad here that they're making the standardized tests EASIER because kids weren't able to pass them any more. so, instead of improving teaching methods, they just make the tests easier so the kids pass. it's pathetic.

Be careful what you say. That might just be a bunch of bull crap.

They're not making them easier, other wise I'd be getting all A's.

pf101 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:40 pm

boldinvest wrote:

pf101 wrote:

pft...in the US, as long as you are actively breathing you can get into at least a community college. it's gotten so bad here that they're making the standardized tests EASIER because kids weren't able to pass them any more. so, instead of improving teaching methods, they just make the tests easier so the kids pass. it's pathetic.

Be careful what you say. That might just be a bunch of bull crap.

They're not making them easier, other wise I'd be getting all A's.

Well, every article I read about the topic talks about how they're making tests easier so... My question is, if I could pass this test in 8th grade how come 8th graders today can't pass it? And note I'm talking about STANDARDIZED test not class tests.

boldinvest · **Joined:** Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:17 pm **Posts:** 95

pf101 wrote:

boldinvest wrote:

pf101 wrote:

pft...in the US, as long as you are actively breathing you can get into at least a community college. it's gotten so bad here that they're making the standardized tests EASIER because kids weren't able to pass them any more. so, instead of improving teaching methods, they just make the tests easier so the kids pass. it's pathetic.

Be careful what you say. That might just be a bunch of bull crap.

They're not making them easier, other wise I'd be getting all A's.

Well, every article I read about the topic talks about how they're making tests easier so... My question is, if I could pass this test in 8th grade how come 8th graders today can't pass it? And note I'm talking about STANDARDIZED test not class tests.

That makes sense. It was pretty easy.

Sam · **Posted:** Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:49 am

I think its all about the parents. As a kid, my brother and I both worked hard around the house on chores and also both engaged in paid work (pet sitting, baby sitting, afterschool jobs, etc.) to pay for cars, etc. My brother and his wife are raising my niece and nephew similarly. Both are required to do chores around the house and my nephew has started taking on paid jobs (pet sitting). My brother and his wife restrict the amount of TV/computer time the kids are allowed and neither child would ever think about talking back to their parents.

I think a lot of parents are keeping up with the Joneses for their kids and indulge their kids so they have the same consumer products their friends have. I think its a huge disservice to be buying kids whatever they want and most of these spoiled kids are going to struggle with money and budgeting.

handworn · **Posted:** Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:48 am

This whole thing has to do with parents allowing what in business relationships they call "moral hazard." Wikipedia defines it thus:

"the prospect that a party insulated from risk (such as through insurance) will be less concerned about the negative consequences of the risk than they otherwise might be; for example, an individual with insurance against automobile theft may be less vigilant about locking the car even though locking the car is a simple risk reduction strategy. Moral hazard arises because an individual or institution in a transaction does not bear the full consequences of its actions, and therefore has a tendency or incentive to act less carefully than would otherwise be the case, leaving another party in the transaction to bear some responsibility for the consequences of those actions."

Whether through laziness or misguided love, parents insulate their kids from risk, and so the kids go undefeated, and so they learn nothing.

consultantjournal · **Posted:** Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:54 am

Ha, I would rather discipline my kids than have the hazard of having to bail them out in their later years!

The Globe and Mail just reported that the average Canadian teen spends 9.2 hours a weekday on schoolwork and 3.5 hours on weekend days. That's 53 hours a week. There are 168 hours in a week. Assume 63 are spent sleeping. That leaves 52 hours for all other activities. If you spend two hours a day eating and travelling to school, there are only 38 hours left for socializing, sports, extracurricular activities, time with family, volunteer work and part-time jobs. And that's an average teen. Somebody who wants to get into university would be spending a lot more time on schoolwork.

marsman57 · **Joined:** Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:27 pm **Posts:** 354

I'm 22. My mom let me push her around and didn't force me to do chores. It probably has made me lazy about that stuff today. My dad would make me do stuff, but I didn't see him as often. I probably would have been spoiled rotten except for the fact that we were poor and could not afford a lot.

That said, I want to force some discipline on my kids.

plonkee · **Posted:** Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:14 am

Quote:

College tests are hard. Try solving this

7x - Y + 3z = 12
-4x + 7y - z = 3

Unless you've missed a line, this system of equations doesn't have a unique solution.

I get the solution set to be:

x = (20y - 21)/5
z = (69 - 45y)/5

But my basic algebra skills are really rusty, so I may have rearranged it all wrong.

Discplining your children to improve your bottom line

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