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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:16 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:51 am
Posts: 43
I overreacted VinTek, quite frankly, I was visiting this site while in panic mode about something else and read into your statement too much. I apologize, frankly in retrospect, I was an ass.

Here's a couple more interesting articles. I suppose your criticisms of my statements make sense (and will apply to these articles) in that they produce few conflicting numbers; however, I think they provide another way to interpret the numbers. I believe college is an investment like any other, one that can be helpful or harmful based on luck and savvy. I think the numbers we get are largely misread and misunderstood. I sincerely believe that if someone who is predisposed and able to go to college chooses not to, in general, they will do fine without it. It's the predisposition, the discipline, the means (money/family example) that really help, and college degree is a plus, but in the end people in this category are more likely to attend and graduate. If those same people instead learned for free with this intrinsic motivation I bet they would make substantially more than an average high school grad without a degree.

I feel like I could explain it more succinctly, but again I find myself running out the door. These articles will help explain my position more articulately than I can.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/07/06/college-scam/?test=faces

(OTHER ARTICLE WILL BE POSTED IN FOLLOW UP POST DUE TO FORUM RESTRICTIONS)

and once again, I'm very sorry. I don't know what got into me, that kind of behavior is a-typical of me, I promise!


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:17 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:51 am
Posts: 43
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/03/stephens.college/index.html?hpt=hp_p1&iref=NS1


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:01 am
Posts: 5209
rickyjo wrote:
I believe college is an investment like any other, one that can be helpful or harmful based on luck and savvy. I think the numbers we get are largely misread and misunderstood. I sincerely believe that if someone who is predisposed and able to go to college chooses not to, in general, they will do fine without it. It's the predisposition, the discipline, the means (money/family example) that really help, and college degree is a plus, but in the end people in this category are more likely to attend and graduate. If those same people instead learned for free with this intrinsic motivation I bet they would make substantially more than an average high school grad without a degree.


No! This is a cop out. Perhaps I don't understand your point but if you are saying that people with means are going to succeed no matter what and those without will not succeed, well, you are dead wrong.

It's all about working hard. Those who work hard do well. Those who don't work hard do not do well. I personally know plenty of "rich kids" that were too lazy to put forth much effort and ended up dropping out of school and working at McDonalds. I also know far more kids that did not start with much but worked hard and did well for themselves.

By even suggesting it is about luck and predisposition you are just giving yourself an excuse. If you are not lucky then there is no reason to work hard. Is that it?


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 Post subject: Reply to FoxNews Post
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:59 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1560
rickyjo wrote:
I overreacted VinTek, quite frankly, I was visiting this site while in panic mode about something else and read into your statement too much. I apologize, frankly in retrospect, I was an ass.

No you weren't. You did overreact, but we've all had moments when we do that. No hard feelings.

rickyjo wrote:
Here's a couple more interesting articles. I suppose your criticisms of my statements make sense (and will apply to these articles) in that they produce few conflicting numbers; however, I think they provide another way to interpret the numbers. I believe college is an investment like any other, one that can be helpful or harmful based on luck and savvy. I think the numbers we get are largely misread and misunderstood. I sincerely believe that if someone who is predisposed and able to go to college chooses not to, in general, they will do fine without it. It's the predisposition, the discipline, the means (money/family example) that really help, and college degree is a plus, but in the end people in this category are more likely to attend and graduate. If those same people instead learned for free with this intrinsic motivation I bet they would make substantially more than an average high school grad without a degree.

I feel like I could explain it more succinctly, but again I find myself running out the door. These articles will help explain my position more articulately than I can.

Let me address your first article first. As you pointed out in your earlier post, there are scads of articles that support both positions. The real key is finding articles that are backed by useful information rather than random factoids cherry-picked to support a position. The foxnews.com article is pretty hard to take seriously in that it doesn't provide any data whatsoever. Seriously, how many people are Michael Dells, Bill Gates(es), Mark Cubans, Richard Branson, Simon Cowell and Peter Jennings(es) actually exist? A few hundred in the world? A few thousand? Out of a world population of 6 billion plus? Cherry-picking a few well-known names is interesting gee-whiz trivia, but it doesn't make for a compelling argument.

The author of the article goes on to say the following:
John Stossel wrote:
"There are 80,000 bartenders in the United States with bachelor's degrees," Vedder said. He says that 17 percent of baggage porters and bellhops have a college degree, 15 percent of taxi and limo drivers. It's hard to pay off student loans with jobs like those. These days, many students graduate with big debts.

Again, he's cherry-picking little factoids. From those statements I can determine without a doubt is that you don't need a college degree to get a job as a bartender, baggage porter, bellhop, or taxi/limo driver. I'm sure that almost every profession that doesn't require a college degree has participants that have college degrees. You might as well throw waiters and truck drivers into the mix. So if you aspire to one of those jobs, yes, college isn't worth it. And while the author cops to his degree in Princeton, it would be interesting to find out how many of his peers in economic journalism have a degree vs. how many don't. I'd guess that the answer would probably eviscerate his contention that college is a scam.

What you need is not so look at small segments, but the big picture. http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-ds_name=ACS_2009_1YR_G00_&-_lang=en&-redoLog=true&-mt_name=ACS_2009_1YR_G2000_B20004&-format=&-CONTEXT=dt, from the US Bureau, is pretty compelling:

Median income for a person with less than a HS diploma: $18,432
Median income for a person with a HS diploma: $26,140
Median income for a person with an Associate degree or some college: $31,906
Median income for a person with a Bachelor's degree: $47,510
Median income for a person with Graduate or Professional degree: $62,313

That's pretty compelling data because it covers the entire nation. Also, it's completely neutral. It doesn't support anyone's conclusions. It just is what it is. Of course, the flip side of the "is college worth it?" issue is the cost. But let's face it, you're much more likely to be paid a higher wage with a degree in accounting than one in art history or French literature. Also, if you start with 2 years in a community college and finish the final 2 years of your bachelor's degree at a public university where you have residency, a bachelor's degree is often quite affordable. The choice to attend college out of state or go to private school is a personal choice and one that affects the cost/benefit ratio considerably. Same goes for the course study a person chooses.

Of course as you point out, there are no guarantees. But clearly the odds of earning more are in higher if you have a degree than if you don't. And because college and life don't offer guarantees, all we can do is play the odds and try to follow the course that gives us the best chances of succeeding.

The author also says:
John Stossel wrote:
But Darren Zhu, a grant winner who quit Yale for the $100,000, told me, "Building a start-up and learning the sort of hardships that are associated with building a company is a much better education path."

I agree. Much better. Zhu plans to start a biotech company.

And is Mr. Zhu going to staff is biotech company with people who only have a HS diploma, or is he going for folks with postgraduate degrees?

rickyjo wrote:
and once again, I'm very sorry. I don't know what got into me, that kind of behavior is a-typical of me, I promise!

Don't worry about it. Let's just stick to having a stimulating discussion the subject at hand. I believe we can both learn something from each other. :)

Now because of the 1-link limit, I'll address your 2nd link in a separate post and add a link of my own.


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 Post subject: Reply to the CCN Opinion Post
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:07 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1560
Well, the CCN link you posted was an opinion post. Moreover, it cites things that are more the exception than the rule. And it does so without any statistical information.

So let me throw http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm at you, this time from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. Like my previous link from the Census Bureau, this is just a table. It has no agenda.

Unemployment rates for:
Less than a high school diploma: 15%
High school graduates, no college: 9.3%
High school graduates, no college: 8.3%
Bachelor's degree and higher: 4.3%

As you can see, the fact that there's any unemployment rate at all in all 4 groups just emphasizes that there are no guarantees. But tell me, would you rather be in the group with a 9.3% employment rate, or the group with a 4.3% employment rate?


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to the CCN Opinion Post
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:15 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:16 pm
Posts: 959
VinTek wrote:
Well, the CCN link you posted was an opinion post. Moreover, it cites things that are more the exception than the rule. And it does so without any statistical information.

So let me throw http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm at you, this time from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. Like my previous link from the Census Bureau, this is just a table. It has no agenda.

Unemployment rates for:
Less than a high school diploma: 15%
High school graduates, no college: 9.3%
High school graduates, no college: 8.3%
Bachelor's degree and higher: 4.3%

As you can see, the fact that there's any unemployment rate at all in all 4 groups just emphasizes that there are no guarantees. But tell me, would you rather be in the group with a 9.3% employment rate, or the group with a 4.3% employment rate?


:!: That's not even the REAL unemployment rate don't forget that.

_________________
Be what you want to attract.


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to the CCN Opinion Post
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:08 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1560
fantasma wrote:
:!: That's not even the REAL unemployment rate don't forget that.

True, but using the U-6 measure only underscores the difference. Per the http://www.cis.org/UnemploymentAmongNativeWorkers (the most recent I can find breaking out U-6 by education for now), the unemployment figures were:

Less than HS: 30.2%
HS diploma: 15.9%
Some college: 15.4%
College or more: 5.0%

When compared to the U-3 numbers, this would seem to indicate that unemployed people with a college degree don't stay unemployed as long as people who lack a degree.


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:01 am
Posts: 5209
I gotta say it...

While the bundled numbers clearly support the point that college is extremely conducive to employment, let's also note that, while statistics are harder to come by, I have no doubt that a large fraction of the baggage handlers and taxi drivers with degrees actually have degrees in art, art history, philosophy, and so forth. Those are perfectly worthwhile degrees for self fulfillment but the job prospects are not so hot. And then there are the degrees from diploma mills.

Again, in my view a degree does not guarantee anything. It still takes hard work and sacrifice to get anywhere. But you are still far better off with a degree in a well respected field from a well respected, accredited institution than you are without one.


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 Post subject: Re: Reply to the CCN Opinion Post
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:52 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:16 pm
Posts: 959
VinTek wrote:
fantasma wrote:
:!: That's not even the REAL unemployment rate don't forget that.

True, but using the U-6 measure only underscores the difference. Per the http://www.cis.org/UnemploymentAmongNativeWorkers (the most recent I can find breaking out U-6 by education for now), the unemployment figures were:

Less than HS: 30.2%
HS diploma: 15.9%
Some college: 15.4%
College or more: 5.0%

When compared to the U-3 numbers, this would seem to indicate that unemployed people with a college degree don't stay unemployed as long as people who lack a degree.


I was agreeing with you. I am a firm believer in education and a strong work ethic. It keeps me sane. 8)

_________________
Be what you want to attract.


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:55 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1560
DoingHomework wrote:
Again, in my view a degree does not guarantee anything. It still takes hard work and sacrifice to get anywhere. But you are still far better off with a degree in a well respected field from a well respected, accredited institution than you are without one.

Oh, I completely agree. And if you saw what I have to put up with when I have to deal with the latest crop of MBAs...well, let's just say that even a postgraduate degree from a good institution is no guarantee of the ability to actually think. A lot of them just seem to think that finding the right formula and plugging in the numbers is the solution to everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:32 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 1
There has been lots of talk recently about whether young people should bother going to college with a bad financial state and few jobs accessible. It seems like a good idea, sort of. That said, the evidence suggests that most young individuals are still better off going to college. http://personalmoneynetwork.com/moneyblog/2011/08/23/dropping-out-college-costly/ We all know that we are facing economic crisis but we need to think what will gonna happen in the future. Those who go to college and finished their bachelor's degree will have a better job unlike those students who choose not to continue their studies in college.


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:57 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:32 am
Posts: 4
in general education is the important tools to make success in life..a better degree will open a wide range of job opportunities..it can make a great influence in the career worlds...if you are educated then the society will respect you..otherwise they will not give any minds to you ..... :clap:


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:00 pm
Posts: 21
DoingHomework wrote:
If you want to know if college is worth it all you have to do is look at unemployment rates. The unemployment rate for college graduates is about 4% right now. It is 9% for the general population, 16% for those who didn't go to college, and about 24% for high school dropouts.

If you think those statistics don't demonstrate that education has enormous value and makes a huge difference in your prosperity in life then you really need to educate yourself.


Thanks for posting. Although, my current job does not require a degree - it's nice to think that maybe I am employed in part because of it.

I personally do not recommend college unless you KNOW what you want to do. Don't just do it to kill time while you figure out what you want to do with your life.

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One fanastic journey into and out of $170,000 of student loan debt.
http://170thou.blogspot.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:37 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am
Posts: 517
I work for a large Bank and sit across from our college recruiters. Obviously they are not only looking for a college degree but also a GPA of 3.0 (B) or better. So if your intention is to get onto a large firm a college degree is absolutely necessary. I can also tell you an MBA/MS Degree will be helpful to really advance I the firm.


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 Post subject: Re: Is College worth it.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:47 am
Posts: 170
Location: FL
College is worth it if you make it worth it. Is college worth going to if you're just going to join the Army when you get out? Probably not, but I see people do it. Worth it if you're going to go home to the family business? Probably not, but I see people do it.

It's all about what you put in, and what job you are seeking...and I am talking purely from a financial stand point, some college degrees just don't make sense to go to school for. Like a 45k/year liberal arts degree to go become a teacher.

On the other hand, if you are blessed, college may be a place to meet lifelong friends and experience things that you will never forget.

It is all in the eyes of the beholder.


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