Um, where did this Matthew guy get his MBA? Why should we care what he says about finance?

You made a statement that was inaccurate. I simply showed you where it could be found. It's up to you whether you read or it not.

The Bible is not a finance book, and debating the finance advice in the Bible is a narrow discussion that probably won't be fruitful for anyone. The whole book points to the person of Jesus Christ as the fulfilment of God's plan for humanity. If you accept that, then you accept the authority of the book in your life, including its advice on money and taxes, but also in every other area.

If you don't accept that, however, it's really no good to just look for little nuggets here and there. There are plenty of religious teachers out there with similar things to say, and you can find quotes about kindness and philosophy of life from an infinite variety of sources.

A good example of this concept from the PF world is Early Retirement Extreme. Jacob's book gives no investment advice, so we could bash it for that. It's not an investment book, however, it's a philosophy book. If you accept the premise of the book, it will affect your whole financial life and eventually impact your investment strategy. If you don't buy the philosophy, however, it's no use dissecting the ins and outs of what he says about specific topics.

I'd say the same applies to the Bible. If you accept, or are willing to study, a mindset that is submissive to the person of Jesus Christ, then you can begin to understand what it means for every area of life. If you read it to select random pieces and analyze them, you'll miss the point.

I know this isn't a religious forum, and I have no intent to proselytize or offend. I'm just stating what I believe to be generally true when discussions similar to this one arise. I hope it was helpful.

JMC, I'd go even further and say, that even if you try to follow the bible, then you'll still need a book about the practical side of finances.

How do you keep a budget, how do you know you're not spending too much, how do you consolidate debts. How much do you need to put in your EF. Do you actually need an EF?

I'm pretty sure these answers aren't in the bible. It's a lifestyle/religious, a fantasy or a historical book depending on your point of view, but not a financial one.

Guys, I think Tightwad's point was that the Bible was not against the concept of interest. His post doesn't suggest that it's a PF guide.

It is. And, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any deity, concept, or philosophy that requires dispelling reason and analysis to accept or understand. But that does not stop me from thinking that the Bible, Koran, Torah, and similar books do a fairly good job of setting out rules for which humans can live together peacefully. All those books are great for that. But to expect authors thousands of years ago to have given good advice on how to behave in the modern financial system is pretty silly, no matter how divinely inspired someone believes they were.

Modern financial markets operate under essentially arbitrary rules established by humans. They are so much different from anything that existed thousands of years ago. Taking financial advice from that period is not a whole lot different that using the bible to help design a rocket.

It does bother me a whole lot though when I see how people like Dave Ramsey exploit this kind of thinking. He targets people in their churches where they have become accustomed to turning off their brains and accepting the authority of what is told to them without question. How could someone with half a brain possibly accept that the stock market owes them 12% a year? And why do people fork over big $ to him for this terrible advice? The bottom line is that he seems to target people who don't want to think critically and he knows where to find them.

Not to hijack the topic, I just think it is dangerous to anyone's financial health to look to the bible for financial advice. Let it tell you about your gods, how to treat each other, for comfort, or whatever. But use your brain when thinking about finance. Why do you think you have one anyway? Think critically about money.

Exactly. Thank you VinTek.

DH, I have known people who turn their brains off in church, just as I have known people who turn their brains off at work, at home, in the educational system, when voting, etc. You can paint a mental image of anyone you disagree with, but it's usually exaggerated. Caricatures of liberals paint them as monsters who manipulate minority votes to sustain power and achieve Marxist domination. Conservatives are painted as cold-hearted millionaires who want to crush honest and simple people. You paint a caricature of people of faith as intellectual slobs who mindlessly read ancient books and follow manipulative sermons, but that is simply not true. I have known many a genius in my communities of faith.

I agree with you about Dave Ramsey. His assumptions are deceptive. He has helped lots of people get out of debt though, and I think that is a good thing.

I very much agree with the comments people have made about the Bible not having a budgeting system or any advice for modern finance. Very true. However, my savings rate could be a higher if I did not fund the operations of an orphan home in a developing nation. The finance books might tell me to minimize unnecessary expenditure, but the Bible tells me that I should look after orphans and widows in their time of need. My response to modern finance and financial advice is guided by my outlook on life, which is shaped by scripture. And the 10 children currently living there make it very worthwhile!

I don't think all people who go to church (or otherwise have spiritual beliefs) are mindless idiots. Some are. Some atheists are idiots too. I suspect that many reading this are thinking right now that all atheists are idiots.

But I do think that trying to get more out of an ancient religious text than it was intended for is crazy. I think there's a section in their about boat building. Should we use it to design aircraft carriers? It's a book about history, contemporary law, how to live together, comforting stories and poetry, and about the philosophy and organization of a community of people that grew into a modern religion. Long ago I did learn a lot about the bible and ancient middle eastern history. The editors of the bible never intended it to be a finance book, a science book, or any of the many other things that some people try to use it for now.



His urging people to get out of debt is a good thing. His methods are questionable. Beyond that I think he is at best an idiot and at worst a manipulative scammer.



You are supporting the orphanage based on your beliefs. That is laudable and, in my opinion, an excellent use of the philosophy and morality presented in the bible.

I also support a couple of charities that help people in need. But that has nothing to do with religion or finance. I do it because it is the right thing to do.

My favourites so far are "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill and "I Will Teach You To Be Rich" by Ramit Sethi

I preempt my own comments with JMC's quote and echo the sentiment:



I enjoy the following books on financial guidance:

1) The Bible
2) Dave Ramsey's The Total Money Makeover
3) Larry Burkett's Money Matters: Answers To Your Financial Questions
4) Mary Hunt's Debt-Proof Your Marriage: How to Achieve Financial Harmony
5) George Clason's The Richest Man in Babylon: The Success Secrets of the Ancients
6) Michael Mihalik's Debt is Slavery: and 9 Other Things I Wish My Dad Had Taught Me About Money



If interested in what the Bible says about money I have found this to be a helpful article. While what the Bible says can be percieved as generic the financial lessons learned from it can be very valuable.



I agree. This is a good way to put it JMC. Well done.



From personal experience I agree Dave has helped lot's of people get out of debt. People sometimes throw the baby out with the bath water with Dave. Use his method (or another one) to get out of debt then look for serious advice on investments elsewhere.

I'll just repeat, the bible might be a good religion book but it's no good for finance. I believe there is a section in there on marine engineering, something about building a big boat, but only an idiot would follow that advice when building or analyzing a modern super tanker or aircraft carrier.





The problem is that those things are not separable. If you think objectively then decisions regarding debt repayment and investment are all about expected returns. When DR or anyone else tells someone to pay off a 5% debt and then tells them that the market is going to return 10-12% on investments without risk, there is the implicit assumption that the person is incapable of thinking rationally. Why? Because the rational decision is to keep the debt and invest.

If you WANT to pay off debt for emotional reasons then that is a personal, subjective decision. Whether it is the optimum financial choice is NOT a subjective decision. It either is or it is not depending on the after-tax interest rate versus the expected return on alternate investments. I have trouble with any book that tries to paint decisions qualitatively rather than teaching people to think critically about them.

When people hear DR's preaching they must be disengaging their rational brain because it is usually not self consistent. It works for him because many of the people who follow him have been brainwashed into accepting inconsistency when it comes from a proclaimed authority. People have the freedom to do that but it is not a way to demonstrate good critical thinking skills.

If you want to accept fuzzy, unevidenced, qualitative thinking or reliance on authority then do that at (censored). But when making decisions with your money, learn to think rationally and don't accept anything on authority. Learn to do the analysis yourself.

As someone whose knowledge of investing wouldn't even fill the head of a pin, I really enjoyed "How a Second Grader Beats Wall Street" By Allan Roth. Even the "Investment for Dummies" books made too many assumptions about the reader's level of knowledge to be useful to me. When I heard about Roth's book, I figured that I needed to start at an 8-year-old's level of understanding. I know I have a better chance of winning the lottery (and, um, I don't play the lottery) than becoming the next Buffet, but I gained enough knowledge from this book to feel brave enough to start investing on my own.

I'm new to this site, but not new with financial books. I have read a few of them and I think these two are real effective, the third is much more than financial, it is a book of life.

The Richest Man in Babylon: This book gives the simplest financial advice ever. It can be practiced by anyone regardless of your income.

Think and Grow Rich: This is not as simple as the former, but it shows one how to prepare the mind for financial or any type of success. It also deals with our inner thought problems and why they keep us from achieving what we desire, plus it gives practical solutions on how take us from where we are to where we want to be.

The Bible: This book teaches everything we need to know in life. It is a manual for the human race. No aspect of life is left out. With regards to financial well being, it has simple points that will lead to riches with happiness. A simple example is that "he that gathereth by labor shall have increase."

I will read some of the books suggested in the posts, but as one posts suggests, practicing what we learn is the best way to increase our wealth.

I am practicing with surprising results. Please read and practice for yourselves!

This topic thread has been interesting to read, particularly the posts about whether the bible provides good financial advice. I read the bible almost every day and have never directly drawn financial advice from it yet when I wrote a book to help consumers with the "how to buy" end of personal finance , I found a connection between marketing techniques and one faith tradition.

I found these two books very useful in young adulthood.

"The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason

"The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas J. Stanley

I think that Warren Buffet's letters to shareholders are the best financial writings available. And they are free and easy to obtain - just search for them on the internet.

And lastly, I think that my own book provides a good introduction to some very practical advice on the "Being Sold" or "Consumerism" side of the personal finance equation. But of course I'm biased - my assessment was that such a book was missing from the marketplace and that's why I wrote it.