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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 10:05 am
Posts: 960
DoingHomework wrote:
Oh Eagle, you are so biased and so misguided. But Mr. O doesn't need me to defend him. I know his opponents want to keep talking about the economy. You apparently got the memo on that. But really, you are going to blame Obama for inheriting an economy in freefall in 2008?



Kind of what I expected. Obama isn't to blame for anything related to the economy... He just inherited the problem and can't fix anything after all he is just the President etc.

DoingHomework wrote:
Are you really that stupid?



I would appreciate it if you would stick to the issues. Name calling and personal attacks isn't very efficient for discussions. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "keeping it civil." Just my opinion.

DoingHomework wrote:
In case you are wondering, I'm not a fan of Obama.



Really? Will you vote for him come November? So I guess you would agree: That the clean energy initiative in the U.S. was a waste? That the President has fostered unnecessary class divisions? That he has embarrassed us American citizens internationally? That he has done a horrible job in helping create jobs even for Americans (yes, even African-Americans; 13 million are currently unenmployed)? That while he clearly has no experience in business he would like to give the government credit for America's success (a slap in the face of all American and Immigrant entrepreneurs that pay for his salary)? And that finally under his leadership we've truly become a Welfare Nation?


DoingHomework wrote:
Eagle wrote:
This is especially true in regards to protecting our allies the Kurds.


Hmm, which treaty allies the US with the Kurds?


Okay so we don't have a treaty with the Kurds. The Kurds in Iraq were very friendly towards the U.S. in the war. Abandoning them to Sunnis and Shiites at this juncutre was not a good idea. Look what the previous reigme did to them. My opinion of course.

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Posts: 5293
Eagle wrote:
Kind of what I expected. Obama isn't to blame for anything related to the economy... He just inherited the problem and can't fix anything after all he is just the President etc.

It takes Congress and the president working together to get us out of a crisis. This Congress failed miserably at that. They decided to simply drag their heels so that they could point to the president's inaction during the next election. That's what they are doing now.

Eagle wrote:
I would appreciate it if you would stick to the issues. Name calling and personal attacks isn't very efficient for discussions. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "keeping it civil." Just my opinion.

Fair enough. But one of the issues in this thread seems to be your habit of parroting what others have told you without thinking. I was simply asking whether you really buy that.

Quote:
Really? Will you vote for him come November? So I guess you would agree: That the clean energy initiative in the U.S. was a waste? That the President has fostered unnecessary class divisions? That he has embarrassed us American citizens internationally? That he has done a horrible job in helping create jobs even for Americans (yes, even African-Americans)? That while he clearly has no experience in business he would like to give the government credit for America's success (a slap in the face of all American and Immigrant entrepreneurs that pay for his salary)? And that finally under his leadership we've truly become a Welfare Nation?

I have not decided who I will vote for. It will not be Romney but it may not be Obama either. I know that's a wasted vote.

And no, I don't agree with any of your statements. It's all just vicious attacks and blaming the president for things beyond his control. And what's the point of singling out African-Americans. He is our president, for all of us. Do you consider only what every previous president did for white people?

Eagle wrote:
Look what the previous reigme did to them. My opinion of course.

Are you referring to the Hussein regime that we put into power and supported for decades?


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 10:05 am
Posts: 960
DoingHomework wrote:
Eagle wrote:
I would appreciate it if you would stick to the issues. Name calling and personal attacks isn't very efficient for discussions. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "keeping it civil." Just my opinion.


Fair enough. But one of the issues in this thread seems to be your habit of parroting what others have told you without thinking. I was simply asking whether you really buy that.


If you noticed I took a while to post what I was thinking. The insult is that I can't think for myself. Those were my arguments. I did the research. I've laid out the reasons I dislike Obama both from an economic and a social standpoint.

DoingHomework wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Really? Will you vote for him come November?

I have not decided who I will vote for. It will not be Romney but it may not be Obama either. I know that's a wasted vote.

And no, I don't agree with any of your statements. It's all just vicious attacks and blaming the president for things beyond his control.


So would you claim to be an independent voter? Curious. In any organization when the company is not succeeding you fire the CEO and replace him/her with someone who can get the job done.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Still think too many people make excuses for Obama. Including the President himself as the head cheerleader as seen below:

Jobs:
“We’ve got to deal with what’s been happening over the last decade, the last 15 years.”
- President Obama July 2012 on job results, so it goes back to Bush AND Clinton too lol

Oil Prices:
“The key thing that is driving higher gas prices is actually the world’s oil markets and uncertainty about what’s going on in Iran and the Middle East, and that’s adding a $20 or $30 premium to oil prices.”
- March 23, 2012

Solyndra:
“Obviously, we wish Solyndra hadn’t gone bankrupt. Part of the reason they did was because the Chinese were subsidizing their solar industry and flooding the market in ways that Solyndra couldn’t compete. But understand, this was not our program per se. Congress–Democrats and Republicans–put together a loan guarantee program.”
- March 22, 2012

The Economy
“We’ve made sure to do everything we can to dig ourselves out of this incredible hole that I inherited.”
- February 23, 2012

The Debt:
“Look, we do have a serious problem in terms of debt and deficit, and much of it I inherited when I showed up.”
- August 8, 2011

“I inherited a big debt.”
- March 29, 2011

Unemployment:
“We inherited the worst recession since the Great Depression, a banking system on the verge of meltdown. We had lost 4 million jobs by the time I was sworn in and would then lose another 4 million in the few months right after I was sworn in before our economic policies had a chance to take root.”
- May 10, 2011

The Financial Crisis
“We inherited a financial crisis unlike any that we’ve seen in our time. This crisis crippled private capital markets and forced us to take steps in our financial system — and with our auto companies — that we would not have otherwise even considered.”
- June 1, 2009

DoingHomework wrote:
And what's the point of singling out African-Americans. He is our president, for all of us. Do you consider only what every previous president did for white people?


President Obama is the President of all American citizens. However, I would say even many people who voted for Obama in 2008 are very disenchanted with his performance. My point was to emphasize that if a non-African American were in that position of power there would be an uproar in the African-American community. The same goes for a Hispanic President – would Hispanics vote for he or she regardless of the issues? My point was people follow Obama blindly regardless of his economic policies or stances on social issues.

You claim I’m uneducated and can’t think for myself. What do you think of this caller in the following link? I got to ask. By the way I should point out that the caller claims to be a nurse. It’s pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CsYeObJ0QY

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 255
Eagle, you and my in-laws. It's like you parrot the same book. Is there a book that is given out that you can't deviate from? I'm still waiting on your reply to my post....

Just because you asked, my husband and I are planning on kids, but it isn't the right time to have any yet.

I'm really curious why you are bringing race up. Are you suggesting that Obama automatically gets the African-American vote because he is black? That's marvelously racist. It assumes that people who are black/Hispanic only vote based on the color of skin instead of issues.

Before you ask, no, I don't pretend to be Independent. I'm a die-hard, Maddow-adoring liberal. I WISH Obama were as liberal as Fox news screams he is.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Posts: 960
kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle, you and my in-laws. It's like you parrot the same book. Is there a book that is given out that you can't deviate from? I'm still waiting on your reply to my post....

Just because you asked, my husband and I are planning on kids, but it isn't the right time to have any yet.

I'm really curious why you are bringing race up. Are you suggesting that Obama automatically gets the African-American vote because he is black? That's marvelously racist. It assumes that people who are black/Hispanic only vote based on the color of skin instead of issues.

Before you ask, no, I don't pretend to be Independent. I'm a die-hard, Maddow-adoring liberal. I WISH Obama were as liberal as Fox news screams he is.


Lol. I see none of the 10 economic issues I brought up are addressed. Of course by your admission you are extreme liberal politically. This means of course that none of that was Obama's responsibility or fault. Oh and I'm sure I'm closed minded and can't think myself. ;)

I'll take a look at the post you mentioned and reply possibly tommorrow.

Check the records - 94% of African Americans voted for Obama in 2008. No expert that I'm aware of says he will get less than 90% of the African American vote. It is not a racist comment. Simply put it is fact.

_________________
~ Eagle


Last edited by Eagle on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 255
1. Legacy: President Obama has loaded up every child in this nation with more debt than any President in history. The U.S. debt has increased over $5 trillion incurred in his three and half years. That puts U.S. total debt over 14 trillion dollars and counting. This is nearly triple what it was when President Obama took office.

According to the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, a non-partison group, the US debt for the next 10 years can be entirely and utterly blamed on the Bush era taxcuts and wars in the Middle East.

2. Economy: With his policies and the threat of more such policy, he has destroyed more wealth than any human being in history, which is always what happens when you set out to redistribute wealth: you end up destroying it. Federal spending, the budget deficit, and national debt are now at highest level as a percentage of GDP since WWII. 46 million Americans now living in poverty, the most since the Census Bureau began keeping records in 1959.

A) Citation needed on wealth redistribution. I'm not taking that as read.
B) More people are in poverty. Just had a recession that rivals the Great Depression. Many mid-level jobs have been outsourced and many of the created jobs are low wage. Yes, this is a problem. Is it Obama's fault? You'll have to prove that to me.

3. Clean Energy: President Obama’s record shows failed investments in green energy projects. Solyndra, Beacon Power, and more recently Ener1 all have gone bankrupt costing over $600 million in tax payers money. At best President Obama has been naïve about solar, wind and electric cars.

Again, liberal. I'm a huge fan of clean energy. My current job in chemical research is owed to the drive towards reducing and/or eliminating VOCs. I would not have a job if there wasn't a drive towards clean air and energy. My job before this was directly due to the EPA. Those job killing regulations? Keeps a multi-national corporation that would have drifted into irrelevance years ago driving and innovating.

So... yeah. Clean energy is necessary. Do I wish those companies hadn't gone bankrupt? Of course. Do I regret that my tax dollars went towards investing in clean energy? Nope. Not even when the companies failed. They probably wouldn't have if China were playing fair.

4. U.S. Credit: Under his presidency the U.S.'s credit rating was downgraded – a first in the history of the U.S.

DH addressed this. The credit agency addressed this, too, and they made it very clear that they weren't blaming anything on Obama's policies. It was 100% lack of cooperation in Congress.

5. Pro-Class Warfare: He has divided America along racial lines in destructive ways. He has pitted the rich against the poor. He has actively pursued the race issue across America.

Citation needed. This is not taken as read.

6. Embarrassment Internationally: He has traveled the world making apologies for America instead of defending its timeless and treasured ideals of freedom and peace for all nations of good will. Here’s a sample…


You say embarrassment, I say humility that was necessary to restore the image of the US on the global stage. Do you have any idea what Bush did to our international reputation?

7. Embarrassment as a Leader of the Free World: He has said there is nothing exceptional about America, something no other president has ever said and something which alone suggests he is a historically poor president.

See above.

8. Jobs: He has not met with his Jobs Council for over 6 months. We have had forty (40) consecutive months with unemployment over 8 percent. African Americans haven’t really fared that well either – in July the report was 14.6% unemployment for African Americans. Reverends Sharpton and Jackson would be going crazy in places like Chicago, Detroit, and Philadelphia if this had been a Hispanic or Caucasian President.


A) AA unemployment is historically higher for a number of reasons. *cough*racism*cough*
B) Again, worst recession in recent history. Also, there are a lot of jobs that have been automated and aren't coming back. It's a mix of cyclical and structural reasons that feed into the high unemployment. The structural reasons are troubling, yes. It's a shame our President hasn't submitted any jobs plans... oh wait. He has. Republicans voted it down.

9. Small Business: The President attacked small business owners recently. “If you’ve got a business. You didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” I mean seriously big government gets the credit for America’s success? That is laughable.

It is laughable. Laughable that you are again taking things out of context.

Unless small businesses are funding their own police force/building their own roads/maintaining their own fire fighters... And of course, no small business owners attended public grade schools. Take government grants? Use government run healthcare? No small businesses? Anyone?

Oh dear. I guess that small business I worked for that owed it's entire existence to the EPA is imaginary. My bad. That job-killing EPA that is the reason I have my job right now with a large company....

Side note, I <3 Elizabeth Warren. I have seen that video. I did know Obama's speech is based on her viral video. She was right.

10. Welfare: Largest number of Americans on government assistance in history. A record number of Americans now rely on food stamps – 47 million people. That is one out of 7 Americans. This means a 70% increase since 2007. From the U.S. SS website: By 2033, there will be almost twice as many older Americans as today -- from 43.4 million today to 75.7 million. There are currently 2.8 workers for each Social Security beneficiary. By 2033, there will be 2.1 workers for each beneficiary.

That recession went right past you, didn't it? Count yourself lucky. My family was incredibly hard hit. So yes, more people need government assistance. The recession was brutal. That doesn't make it Obama's fault. You have to prove it is a direct result of a specific policy he proposed and forced through in order for me to believe it was.


Further- Social Issues:

A) I dislike that Obama is anti-Israel.

Please provide specific examples.

B) I dislike that Obama ignores the national day of prayer, but hosts Muslims at the White House.

Separation of Church and State. My agnostic husband loves that the loss of national day of prayer. Shocker, not every American is religious and wants to pray.

C) I dislike that Obama favors taking the life of the unborn.

Obama is actively killing fetuses? Is there a national "have an abortion" day a missed? Oh, you mean he isn't anti-choice. Well yes, as a pro-choice person who whole heartedly approves of safe and legal abortion, I like this. Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion.

Cheap and available birth control, especially the pill, is single handledly responsible for the greatest advancement of women in generations. It's wonderful. And personally, the pill is what keeps me alive and functioning. Without it, I would have died years ago. That is between me and my doctor. I should never have to explain to my employer what might happen to me if they reject my prescription because of their own interpretation of the Bible.

D) I dislike that Obama promised transparency and has been very secretive on many issues. “Transparency promotes accountability and provides information for citizens about what their Government is doing.” Examples of lack of transparency - Gulf of Mexico, Food and Drug Administration, Requests Made for Public School Records, and the more recent Intelligence leak.He's even gone as far as to persecute whistle blowers and alleged leakers .

The underlined bit is citation needed. And are you seriously saying that he needs to submit his college records? Really? I thought that was something MSNBC was making a big deal of that only a few fringe crazies were saying.

As for transparency, yeah, he hasn't done what I had hoped. Fair comment.

But all I have to ask myself is, compare where we are now vs where I think we would be if McCain were in charge with Palin doing anything other than being a pretty face on TV. And I fall down and praise the Lord that we dodged that bullet.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:51 pm 

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And yeah, when you and my in Laws come up with with the exact same comments literally verbatim? I'm not going to be too entirely impressed with your ability to think on your own.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:05 pm 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1749
Eagle wrote:
Lol. I see none of the 10 economic issues I brought up are addressed.

Eagle, you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk. Put it this way: YOU started this thread about the HRL but when referred to 2 articles that refute each of your points, you only reply that you're still not convinced without any supporting data.

YOU are the one who brought up religion as a basis for your position on the HRL but when queried about religion, you reserve the right not to discuss it. You undercut your own arguments by saying on one hand that because the Bible outlines behavior for the individual and church, the omission of the state means that those principles shouldn't be codified into law. Yet a few posts later, you post a slew of Biblical verses as the basis of the Constitution.

YOU were the one who brought up free will yet when queried about it (i.e. the hardening of Pharoah's heart), you link to an article that is itself has internal conflicts, you bail on that conversation, reserving your right not to discuss.

I'm convinced that instead of starting new threads for new subjects, you want to stay on this one so that you can change the subject at will, hoping that no one will notice that you bail every time you wind up on the losing end of a discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:49 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:19 pm
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
Eagle wrote:
That puts U.S. total debt over 14 trillion dollars and counting. This is nearly triple what it was when President Obama took office.


Well that's just plain wrong.

When Obama took office in January 2009, the total US debt was $10.6 trillion.

How is $14 trillion triple $10.6 trillion?

Did you even bother to look this stuff up, or are you just parroting talking points from right-wing pundits?


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:44 am 
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First let me say I have nothing against you personally kaitlyn. Or anyone else on this thread. Understand too that I realize I’m a guy and tend to compartmentalize things - liking putting things in boxes. In discussions with my wife I realize for women everything flows together - like a pasta dish. Maybe that is how you process things. Maybe not. In any case please don’t see this as an attack on you personally it is just discussing the topics at hand. It is very interesting to get your perspective. I think I’m seeing a pattern develop.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
1. Legacy: According to the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, a non-partisan group, the US debt for the next 10 years can be entirely and utterly blamed on the Bush era tax cuts and wars in the Middle East.


Important to note that it is allegedly a "non-partisan group." I doubt it. So all the bailouts during the Obama administration are Bush's fault too? What about the other increases to the debt during the Obama administration? How can a non-partisan group make such claims? Sorry but that is a bit humorous. Love it.

One of the reasons I wanted to know if anyone else had or planned on having kids is because I find it slightly ironic/amusing that someone who believes evolution is fact is not passing on his or her genetic makeup. Not to mention people with no children have no direct stake in the future of the U.S. or the world (say 50+ years down the road). This debt will be the burden of my children and my children’s children (we hope to have more or even adopt). Maybe it's just me? :rofl:

So Obama isn’t responsible for his legacy.

2. Economy:

Quote:
“The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.

You know, maybe I am showing my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor, but you know I am not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts.” – Obama Radio Interview October 2001


By the way, let’s talk about Obama’s quote “I am my brother’s keeper.” He borrowed this from the Bible and took it out of context.

8Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Lets go out to the field." While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 9Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
10The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground[.]" – Gen. 4:8-10


The passage has nothing to do with actually helping your brother. The passage refers instead to being the prison guard of another in context. Cain was telling God in fact that Abel was not his responsibility. Fitting quotation of this passage in context considering Obama has a brother in Kenya who lives in poverty. It’s interesting that the brother wanted to become a mechanic but got no assistance from President Obama. When Dinesh D'Souza wanted to interview the brother (and offered him 25K to help him get started on the mechanic dream in 2008) it was blocked by the Obama camp. In 2010 the brother was a lot more cooperative with D’Souza since Obama still hadn’t helped him at all. Oh President Obama also has an aunt in Kenya who sells coal for $2 a day. That’s $730 she makes a year. It’s interesting how generous Obama is – with other people’s money. I can’t wait to watch “Obama's America: 2016” by Dinesh D'Souza

Heard of it?

Quote:
Further, the Hebrew word for "keeper" is what a prison guard does, keeping prisoners in cells. Abel was a keeper of flocks, not a lamb that needed "keeping." A "keeper" implies control of a flock of docile, stupid, incompetent, wandering, helpless...sheep. The only economic function of sheep is to be sheared. The State has been the "keeper" of the poor for so long that many of them act like caged animals, fed through the bars of their limited freedom, beholden to the State for sustenance.


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/obama_misquotes_bible_on_wealth_redistribution.html#ixzz21pCcRKF6


“Right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody." - Obama October 14, 2008

Obamacare is nothing less and nothing more than a redistribution of wealth.

Regarding historical context take the former USSR nations - command economy and wealth redistribution. There were still the extreme (the party) haves and (the people) have-nots. It didn’t work. And when the USSR fell thugs and the mafia took over. Innovation? I’d like to see a study to see how much innovation has taken place since the fall of the USSR in the former soviet states. People were used to being told what to do, where to live, what to eat, and where to work. Even China realized that a more capitalist approach/leaning to the economy was necessary for survival.

B) So the captain of the ship isn’t responsible for the ships course? Okay. Once again Obama isn’t responsible. The CEO’s at HP weren’t responsible for the debacle they made in 2010 and 2011. There for they should keep their jobs. Oh wait what?

But Obama isn’t responsible for his brother or for the Economy.


kaitlyn142 wrote:
3. Clean Energy:
Again, liberal. I'm a huge fan of clean energy. My current job in chemical research is owed to the drive towards reducing and/or eliminating VOCs. I would not have a job if there wasn't a drive towards clean air and energy.

They probably wouldn't have if China were playing fair.


I should probably point out I’m actually in favor of technology supporting clean energy. That may surprise you. But my point is: Was due diligence taken to avoid the bankruptcies and waste tax payers money? In my opinion nope. The evidence is the bankruptcies.

Okay once again the blame is on China. So we wasted over half a billion dollars and it’s China’s fault.

So Obama isn’t responsible for the clean energy failure.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
4. U.S. Credit Downgrade:
DH addressed this. The credit agency addressed this, too, and they made it very clear that they weren't blaming anything on Obama's policies. It was 100% lack of cooperation in Congress.


Okay so the U.S. Credit downgrade was Congress’s fault. And Obama was willing to cooperate. Got it.

So Obama isn’t responsible for the U.S. credit downgrade. I think I’m starting to see a pattern emerge here. Maybe it’s just me. Is anybody else reading this?

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
5. Pro-Class Warfare: He has divided America along racial lines in destructive ways. He has pitted the rich against the poor. He has actively pursued the race issue across America.


This is not taken as read.


Obama is a proponent for taxing those above the 250k income level. But he plans to extend the tax cuts to those under that mark. Redistribution of wealth. He also wants to give amnesty to thousands/millions of illegal aliens. Sounds like extra votes to me?

6. Embarrassment Internationally & 7 Embarrassment as a Leader of the Free World

Humility? No. It was perceived as weakness by many. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. Further according to wiki leaks Obama was told by the Japanese government not to apologize for Hiroshima. Never mind that under Japanese honor culture the war would’ve lasted a lot longer if the bombs hadn’t been launched against Japan – costing even more lives and resources. This was a very sad but true issue faced by the American leadership at the time. They made the best decision they thought they could with the resources available. Their responsibility and of course didn’t the President at the time man up to it? Of course this whole paragraph will be dismissed as hearsay.

And just to throw it in - this perception is not Obama’s fault.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
8. Jobs: He has not met with his Jobs Council for over 6 months. We have had forty (40) consecutive months with unemployment over 8 percent. African Americans haven’t really fared that well either – in July the report was 14.6% unemployment for African Americans. Reverends Sharpton and Jackson would be going crazy in places like Chicago, Detroit, and Philadelphia if this had been a Hispanic or Caucasian President.


A) AA unemployment is historically higher for a number of reasons. *cough*racism*cough*


This is at best a poor excuse. Not Obama’s fault I get it. I see you didn’t disagree though that had the circumstances in the White House been different (Asian, Causac the AA leadership that back Obama would be all over the place. I see also that you glossed over the comment that so many AA’s voted for him in 2008. The same is expected in 2012. Interesting.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
B) Again, worst recession in recent history. Also, there are a lot of jobs that have been automated and aren't coming back. It's a mix of cyclical and structural reasons that feed into the high unemployment. The structural reasons are troubling, yes. It's a shame our President hasn't submitted any jobs plans... oh wait. He has. Republicans voted it down.


Not Obama’s fault. It was the Republicans fault. Got it.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
9. Small Business: The President attacked small business owners recently. “If you’ve got a business. You didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” I mean seriously big government gets the credit for America’s success? That is laughable.


It is laughable. Laughable that you are again taking things out of context.


Unless small businesses are funding their own police force/building their own roads/maintaining their own fire fighters... And of course, no small business owners attended public grade schools. Take government grants? Use government run healthcare? No small businesses? Anyone?

Out of context. Not Obama’s fault people misrepresented what he said right? Here’s the full quote:

“Look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something—there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business—you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own.”

Sorry but I would venture most entrepreneurs and small business owners would disagree. I imagine even large corporations leadership/teams would take issue with this comment.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
10. Welfare: Largest number of Americans on government assistance in history. A record number of Americans now rely on food stamps – 47 million people. That is one out of 7 Americans. This means a 70% increase since 2007.


The recession was brutal. That doesn't make it Obama's fault.


Not Obama’s fault. Got it.


So to sum up: None of the problems in America are Obama’s fault and we should re-elect him again in November. That way we can give him 4 more years to accomplish… What? Alrighty then. Talking about drinking the No Blame Kool-Aid.


I’m glad we can agree that his administration has been less than transparent. We do have something in common after all ;)

I knew I forgot something:

I dislike how Obama seems to have time to spare to go golfing entirely too often.

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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:59 am 
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Posts: 960
kombat wrote:
Eagle wrote:
That puts U.S. total debt over 14 trillion dollars and counting. This is nearly triple what it was when President Obama took office.


Well that's just plain wrong.

When Obama took office in January 2009, the total US debt was $10.6 trillion.

How is $14 trillion triple $10.6 trillion?

Did you even bother to look this stuff up, or are you just parroting talking points from right-wing pundits?


That was a false statement regarding it being since President Obama took office. I miss-spoke. A more accurate statement is the U.S. Debt has tripled since 2001 to 2011 to over 14 (now over maybe 16? And we're not even done with 2012 for another 5 months?) Trillion. Here's the article I found from 2011:

Our mountain of debt
http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/07/17/Business/Graphics/w-Debt17.pdf


There has been an estimated increase of 4-5 trillion since the President took office in 2008. Maybe if Obama gets re-elected we can have a 20 Trillion deficit by 2016. Wouldn't that be something. One President single handedly doubling the U.S. debt.

Thanks for holding my feet to the fire kombat. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:03 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:07 am
Posts: 201
Eagle - holy cow, you really parrot the party line. Do you really believe all of that stuff? And, your posts are entirely too long and fragmented to have a discussion.

That aside, do you not agree that Obama inherited one of the worst recessions/economies in modern times? That is not really disputable. Has he done everything right? Of course not. Has he done the best job possible getting our economy back on track? Possibly, possibly not. Nobody can really tell and we'll never know. He certainly stabilized things and there has been progress albeit slower than most people would like. There has, however, been positive job growth every month since September 2010. Again, perhaps it could be better/faster but that is not bad in my eyes.

Also, re the bailouts. EESA was passed and signed into law by Bush in 2008. Under Obama, the total amount possible to spend was capped at $475 billion. Just over $415 billion has gone out the door. Over $340 billion has been recovered to-date, representing more than an 80% return. Any money returning goes to paying down the debt so the net effect will be relatively small. Estimates for the entire TARP program are currently in the $50 billion range and that includes spending all of the money set aside for housing programs (seems very unlikely at this point).


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am 

Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1749
Eagle wrote:
So let’s talk about more important issues shall we?

1. Legacy: President Obama has loaded up every child in this nation with more debt than any President in history. The U.S. debt has increased over $5 trillion incurred in his three and half years. That puts U.S. total debt over 14 trillion dollars and counting. This is nearly triple what it was when President Obama took office.

2. Economy: With his policies and the threat of more such policy, he has destroyed more wealth than any human being in history, which is always what happens when you set out to redistribute wealth: you end up destroying it. Federal spending, the budget deficit, and national debt are now at highest level as a percentage of GDP since WWII. 46 million Americans now living in poverty, the most since the Census Bureau began keeping records in 1959.

I love it when people pick out individual little factoids and then stretch them into something unrecognizable. Let's look at this visually and put it in context:
Image
Now since I'm limited to 1 link (in this case, it's the image), I'll quote from the article where this graph comes from:
Quote:
In 1981, the supply siders commandeered the Reagan Presidency and employed their Voodoo economics, as Bush senior had called it in 1980. He was saying that tax cuts would not increase government revenues. As you can see above, the Voodoo failed just as Bush predicted, and the supply siders turned a 32-year winning streak into a debt disaster that continues to this day. For 20-years, under Reagan and the Bushes, the national debt increased compared to GDP every single year. In most other years it decreased. Twenty years in a row can't be just an accident,

Bush senior fought against it, so the Republicans didn't support him and he lost to Clinton, who put an end to it supply-side economics. G. W. Bush brought it back full strength, with V.P. Cheney saying "Reagan proved deficits don't matter." Currently supply siders are in full control of the Republican party.

The green line shows what would have happened to the national debt if Reagan and the Bushes had balanced their budgets as Reagan claimed he would. G.W. Bush, in all modesty, claimed he would "retire nearly $1 trillion in debt over the next four years. This will be the largest debt reduction ever achieved by any nation at any time."

Conservatives are quite embarrassed by this performance, so they have invented a cover story: The Democratic Congress did it. Nice try. But for 12 of the 20 years the Congress was not Democratic. Also, presidents can veto, and when it was Democratic, Congress passed smaller budgets on average than the Republican Presidents asked for. Presidents propose the budget, and they have the most influence.

And for the record, the destruction of wealth wasn't due to wealth redistribution. The wealth measured was the net worth of individual Americans, most of which was held in stock portfolios (including 401(k)s and IRAs) and real estate. The destruction of that wealth was already going on full force when Obama took office.

And I too am convinced that you're parroting talking points from somebody else. If you were reaching your own conclusions and doing your own research, you'd have used a National Debt figure of $15T-$16T instead of $14T, which is currently closer to the present number. It seems pretty evident that you used somebody else's words and that those words were written some time back.

Edit: note that the graph doesn't defend Obama on the deficit. It clearly shows the deficit going up under him. But seriously, how can you blame him for the entirety of it when it was built on the debt of his predecessors?

Okay Eagle, let's see how you react to actual context and data that isn't addressed in something you can cut and paste. And don't even think of running off on an another tangent; I'll call you out on it if you do. Focus, m'boy, focus.


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:01 am 
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Posts: 960
kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
A) I’d love to see these passages in the Bible that support abortion. Also isn’t the position of the Catholic church one that all life is sacred even at conception?


The Catholic stance is absolutely that life begins at conception. However, the Jewish stance is different, and it is taken from Numbers 5:18-28. It's too long to post, but the gist is the priest gives a woman that may have been unfaithful "bitter waters" to drink to wash away her curse, which causes her stomach to swell.

I am not arguing the Catholic stance with that comment. It was purely to point out to you that the Bible can be made to say nearly anything if you cherry pick.


So let me get this straight? You are saying the official Jewish position on abortion is it is Biblical? I think I would beg to differ.

Okay so what you’re saying with your interpretation of this passage is that in the case of unfaithfulness abortion is permitted. Interesting. So let’s find the passages that argue the following: What about teenage pregnancies and abortions? Or people who abort simply because it is not a convenient time in their lives to have children? Curious.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
B) Isn’t Christ Himself called the “chief cornerstone” in 1 Pet. 2:6-7?
And? Your point being? It's not like we are saying Peter is equal to Christ.


Really? I thought once elected to the position of the Pope a Bishop/Archbishop can no longer sin?

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
C) What is your take on Luke 22:24-30 when the disciples asked who was to be the greatest in Christ's kingdom? And how does this conform with the teachings of the RCC?


I'm posting as a representative of Catholics. My personal interpretations may or may not agree with the RCC. For instance, I'm politically pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, etc. I think Pope Benedict is one of the worst things to happen to the RCC in years.


Okay so the Bible is not relavant when talking about Catcholic beliefs?

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
So then why pray to Mary then? Curious. Or is there Biblical evidence she can intercede for others behalf to God just as Christ according to the Bible can?


It's along the lines of, if your mom asks you to do something, don't you pay extra close attention? My own mother is a Marist, and she is absolutely adamant that they do not consider Mary to be divine.


Still from this I gather there is no Biblical evidence that Mary can intercede to God for us? In fact Jesus is the only mediator between God and man – our one true High Priest.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
So regarding purgatory we can agree there’s is no place in the Bible where purgatory is actually mentioned?


Certainly. Now find the words "Holy Trinity" in the Bible.


Jesus mentions the Father as He seeks to do His will. Jesus mentions that He is the Son. Jesus mentions that He would send the Holy Spirit. Triune. Three in one. Simple enough. There is no evidence in the Bible that purgatory is part of God’s plan. 1 Cor 3:11-15 is talking 1 Cor 3:11-15 refers to the day of judgment at Christ’s return. Not a mystical place of neutrality. Matthew 12:32 in context refers to rejecting God’s Holy Spirit and rejecting Christ as Savior.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
3. Regarding indulgences and good works.. Curious where in the Bible does it say good works are for our benefit? I thought they were a testimony to God’s goodness and honor? So basically if I were to become Catholic I could work my way out of purgatory? Can one work one’s way out of Hell?


I made it very clear that it goes into a good works bank for the souls in Purgatory. No, you cannot work your way out of Hell. Can you selfishly do lots of good works in the hope that you spend no time in purgatory? Nope, because the good works have to be done without any sin attached.

And no, it is not a testament to God's goodness and honor. It's about treating everyone as Christ-like as possible. See Matthew 25: 35-40. Doing good works follows being Christian - Jesus was all about the good works. He didn't do them for greater glory or to honor His Father. He did it because it was the right thing to do. If you aren't doing good works, you aren't trying hard enough to be Christ-like, which makes you a pretty terrible Christian.

I've worked with the homeless (voting drives, working at a "Christmas store" where less fortunate could get free Christmas presents for their kids), feed the hungry (food drives, holiday dinners), visited the elderly (Meals on Wheels) and volunteered at a home for the severely mentally disabled. How about you?


Colossians 3:23 says, “And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men.” Jesus was in fact all about the good works. But the purpose of his good works was always redemption – spiritual redemption of the soul. The blind man’s eyes were opened so he could see and believe that Jesus was Messiah. Not just for the former blind man to have “a good time” for the rest of the man’s days.

I’ve volunteered overseas during summers as an interpreter for aid such as construction teams, dentists, doctors, evangelistic teams, etc. I also lived overseas for years doing similar outreaches. My wife and I currently run (and pay for) a community outreach program where we offer help with kids homework, free snacks, groceries, school supplies, Life/Bible lessons, ESL, financial advice (specifically in getting out of debt and budgeting), and other services. My church offers free food to those in need and I contribute towards that too. There are other things we’re involved with but I’m not going to list everything.

On a side note this week I found out that one of our regular kids at the center was suspended last year for 3 days for talking about God in his public school. I also found out that any mention of Creationism, God, Jesus, or Intelligent Design can result in suspension from school. That was surprising to me. I guess kids don’t get to assert their first amendment rights - after all they are minors. I wonder how long it will take for that to change for adults too? Sobering thought.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Blame? I would call it what it what I believe it is - heresy.


We disagree. For us, baptism is washing away Original Sin and we'd really rather that get done as soon as possible. The parents make all the promises about the child being raised in Christ. Side note, we don't consider someone to be a full member of the Church until after Confirmation. You disagree on our interpretation of Original Sin, therefore, you disagree with our stance.


Sin can only be washed away with the blood of Christ. That is Biblical. Water doesn’t do the trick. This requires a conscious decision to accept Christ’s forgiveness and lordship in one’s life. Making someone feel good because their kid is too young to understand makes it a false hope or lie at best. Sad.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
D) Out of curiosity do Catholics believe anyone can be assured of their salvation?


Be a good person, try not to sin, repent when you do, and have faith.


So no way to be assured of salvation according to the RCC. How sad.

kaitlyn142 wrote:
Eagle wrote:
E) Interesting. So faith alone in Jesus Christ is insufficient for the assurance of salvation?


I was very clear it isn't. See above answer on good works for why.


That isn’t Biblical. How very sad. I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

fantasma wrote:
According to my parents I am still a Catholic.

In catechist(Sunday school): faith alone is not enough to receive salvation you must also follow the laws of the church/god.

Otherwise you could do whatever you want as long as you believe god exists.


That is an interesting point. So basically faith alone in Christ is insufficient for salvation according to the RCC. I had friends growing up who were Catholic-Buddhists, Catholic-Hindus, Catholic-Spiritists, and the list goes on. Wow.


Like I said: I guess we’ll agree to disagree. As this discussion on religion will probably go nowhere (I will unlikely convince you and you won’t convince me) I think we should probably just leave it as is. Not all people who claim to be Christians are true followers of Christ. See Matt 7:22

_________________
~ Eagle


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 Post subject: Re: ObamaCare (+Tangents Evolution, Religion, & Global Warmi
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:03 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:19 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Eagle wrote:
Maybe if Obama gets re-elected we can have a 20 Trillion deficit by 2016. Wouldn't that be something.


(Emphasis mine)

Going from a $4 trillion deficit to $20 trillion in 4 years would indeed be something.

Or maybe you meant $20 trillion debt? I presume you simply "misspoke" again?

Eagle wrote:
One President single handedly doubling the U.S. debt.


Well, if the current debt is $14 trillion, and he runs a $20 trillion deficit in 2016, then that would make the total debt $34 trillion (assuming balanced budgets in the intervening 3 years), so that would actually be more than tripling, during his mandate.

Eagle wrote:
Thanks for holding my feet to the fire kombat. ;)


No problem. But if you're going to try to have a discussion about government finances, it really is important that you understand the difference between the "debt" and the "deficit." I'm sure you realize they're not the same thing (it's a pretty basic concept), and were simply careless with your words again, but the difference in meaning is tremendous.


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